Concept could sustainably meet human resource needs of 'full Earth'

June 9, 2017 by Emil Venere, Purdue University
A proposal to simultaneously use different parts of sunlight’s spectrum to produce crops, generate electricity, collect heat and purify water on the same piece of land could provide resources in a “full-earth” scenario. Credit: Purdue University image/Rakesh Agrawal, Pamela Burroff-Murr

A new concept proposes to provide food, energy and water resources for the world's growing population by combining systems that simultaneously use different parts of sunlight's spectrum to produce crops, generate electricity, collect heat and purify water.

The world's human population is expected to grow from 7 billion to more than 10 billion over the next two to three generations, leading to a "full Earth" scenario.

"This increase in population, coupled with rising per capita income and associated change in consumption habits, will put unprecedented stress on food, energy and ," said Rakesh Agrawal, Purdue University's Winthrop E. Stone Distinguished Professor in the School of Chemical Engineering. "The grand challenge before us is to sustainably meet the needs of a full Earth using scarcer resources, and the sun is the key energy source to achieve this goal."

He is leading a team of researchers proposing a system that would use the entire to maximize resource production from a given land area. The concept is described in a paper appearing on Friday (June 9) in the journal Scientific Reports. The paper was authored by former Purdue graduate student Emre Gençer; postdoctoral research associates Caleb Miskin and M. Ryyan Khan; graduate student Xingshu Sun; Peter Bermel, an assistant professor of electrical and computer engineering; Muhammad Ashraful Alam, Purdue's Jai N. Gupta Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering; and Agrawal.

The concept works by separating and harvesting the three specific segments of the solar spectrum that are best suited to facilitate the production of food, energy and . In current practices, much of this spectrum is wasted because all of the sunlight falling on a given spot is used solely for one purpose, such as agriculture, energy production or purification. The new approach would instead use the same land mass for all three purposes simultaneously through innovative technologies that split the spectrum into three segments and efficiently harvest sunlight.

A typical photovoltaic panel, when installed on farmland, casts a shadow and dramatically reduces plant growth and crop yield from the shadowed area. The proposed photovoltaic designs transmit photons responsible for plant growth while reflecting remaining photons in the solar spectrum to specially-designed solar cells to generate electricity and collect heat for energy recovery and water purification.

"The advantage of our proposed solution is clear," Agrawal said. "With the three-way split, the entire spectrum is judiciously used for the production of food, energy and water resources."

Solar splitting to maximize electric power generation and heat recovery is well known, coauthor Alam said.

"However, its feasibility in the context of food, energy and water resources on the same land has never been reported," he said. "Here, we not only consider this possibility and develop systems to achieve this goal, but also through modeling show the vast unexplored potential of such a system toward meeting the food, energy and water needs for a full Earth."

The proposed system could create solar-powered, self-sufficient communities - a major step toward full-Earth preparedness, Bermel said.

"Furthermore, implementing this approach across agricultural land areas could supply extra electricity to the power grid, as well as freshwater supplies to other areas in need, thus improving global resilience," he said.

Water from sources such as underground wells, oceans, rivers, lakes, ponds, and field runoff would enter water purification units powered by the heat and electricity generated from sunlight. The purified water would then be used for irrigation or urban needs. Any salts or contamination-rich water leaving the units would be sent for further processing, recycling or disposal.

"A major feature is the ability to produce food, and water resources locally without interfering with agricultural production, which will be increasingly important, as expected population growth will require increased dedication of land resources to agriculture," Agrawal said. "At the same time, the local generation of electricity will allow the use of microgrids in villages and provide a new paradigm for electricity generation and distribution. Local generation of power and clean water also is expected to reduce the long-distance transmission losses inherent in any power supply grid system."

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antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (4) Jun 09, 2017
A typical photovoltaic panel, when installed on farmland, casts a shadow and dramatically reduces plant growth and crop yield from the shadowed area.

Soooo...don't install photovoltaics on farmland? There's plenty of land not suitable for faming and photovoltaics aren't picky.
We might rather consider seasonally installed, full range photovoltaics by rolling out flexible PV foils over fields in winter - where average production due to little sunlight is low but the increase in area can make up for it (also giving farmers an additional source of income) - in summer one could shift these around onto fields that aren't used due to crop rotation/regenration cycles.
However, its feasibility in the context of food, energy and water resources on the same land has never been reported

Because these three things are not being needed (or waste/salt-water being available) in close proximity?

Theory meet reality.
EmceeSquared
2.8 / 5 (4) Jun 09, 2017
antialias_physorg:
Soooo...don't install photovoltaics on farmland?


The area of oceanic "dead zones" (where solar energy isn't powering biology) is enough for today's PV panels to generate enough energy to power all mechanical (ie. not food) energy consumption. Float them there. Sacrifice some efficiency to crack seawater and air into liquid fuels, and have tankers refuel at them instead of at petrofuel platforms and ports. Replaces all terrestrial power, sustainable and otherwise. Bonus for reducing the solar energy absorbed by the oceans as heat.
LochBhein
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
antialias_physorg:
"There's plenty of land not suitable for faming and photovoltaics aren't picky."

Depends on where in the world you are. What's true in the US Mid-west may not be true in densely populated areas of India, Asia, Africa (and Europe) where every square metre of land is already used.

This approach is interesting and worth considering. It allows all the existing farmland to continue being used, whilst adding something new - local power generation and sterilisation of water. Eminently suitable for rural villages in India, as no major infrastructure upgrade is needed.

The suggestion of floating panels at sea is interesting, and may be another useful approach, but doesn't help an Indian village much. In many parts of the world the oceans are subject to occasional violent storms which could make things a bit tricky. A good additional option, rather than an alternative. China is doing this on inland reservoirs - better weather and also helps reduce evaporation.
Gigel
4 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Soooo...don't install photovoltaics on farmland?

Why not? Just install them vertically. A sparse vertical solar collector array will leave plenty of sunlight to fall on the ground and at the same time capture energy form a part of it. Plus there is far cheaper space vertically than horizontally (it depends how you access it). The vertical solar panels can be lifted with balloons filled with lighter than air gas and anchored on ground, or held on tall, simple "pole and cable" metallic structures. The solar panels don't need to be flat, they can be cylinders or spheres in order to better cope with winds.
xponen
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
For this to be real, I imagine we need a transparent infrared mirror that shade a swath of farming land. It will shade the argriculture plants & animals from the heat, making them comfortable. The reflected infrared is not wasted, it was concentrated on a molten salt tower, or steam pipes. This will in turn produce electricity & treat the wastewater from the animals & plants.
xponen
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
We can imagine an industrial farming, with sludge of algea grown in a large swath of open factory, that we later use as animal feed, or we can imagine a typical corn farm with towering mirrors.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Depends on where in the world you are. What's true in the US Mid-west may not be true in densely populated areas of India, Asia, Africa (and Europe)

Even in germany (which is as densely populated and as fully used as you can get) we're finding plenty of spaces to put down photovoltaics that don't impact farmland (e.g. along the autobahn and fields left untended for regeneration)

The area of oceanic "dead zones" (where solar energy isn't powering biology) is enough for today's PV panels to generate enough energy to power all mechanical (ie. not food) energy consumption.

Exactly. I don't get where they see this issue conflict of arable land vs. water vs. energy. Though the dead zones are probably not useful because they are so far away that energy transport becomes a major issue.

Why not? Just install them vertically.

Insulation is by area. You can't cheat that.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Jun 10, 2017
When i was a kid I used to have a hydrodynamic building set with an interesting little gadget - a siphon cup that would slowly fill until it reached a certain point and then the water would drain out completely.

Do the researchers really want to supercharge the earth so that one unanticipated event would cause the whole thing to collapse?

Wouldn't it be better to eliminate the social systems that continue to force overgrowth? Wouldn't it be safer to begin finding ways of reducing our numbers rather than trying to support more?

The surviving religions all prevailed because they were better at outgrowing and overrunning than their competition. They have not changed. Their books still demand that they fill the earth with their own at the expense of everyone else.

THAT is the problem that needs solving and in the meantime providing them resources only creates suffering and conflict on ever larger scales.

End religion before it ends us.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
End religion before it ends us.
Agreed, but I don't see that as the whole problem. We have to learn to care - or we will destroy ourselves, religion or not. Example - I am having to contract for a new driveway - and it is very difficult to find a business that is honest, and reliable. Far more assholes out there - just ready to screw you - and leave. Other example - go over to the park on a Monday morning - and see piles of discarded shit - where folks have had a BBQ on the weekend - and just scattered staggering amounts of trash - left for someone else to clean up. You have to learn not to shit in your own nest. So this program is at least an attempt to think about caring - and applying our science. Green Wave would be another example - as well as permaculture, and other models looking at sustainability. How do you turn a whole culture of narcissists?
EmceeSquared
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
antialias_physorg:
Though the dead zones are probably not useful because they are so far away that energy transport becomes a major issue.


That's why I suggested they crack H2O/CO2 into liquid fuels, served by the same tanker infrastructure serving today's oil/gas system. Fuel generation (replacing land refineries too) at sea, where they're totally unobstructed, otherwise useless, and distributed well among the nations but right at the maximum energy/chemical supplies seems compelling. Also a good way to defray the overhead of floating wind capture, possibly wave/tide capture. Plus some tankers could carry away desalinated water.

Indeed I think they'd become the basis for a whole marine civilization, a more accessible version of our visions of space colonization. Elon Musk I'm talking to you :).

Insulation


I think you mean "insolation".
EmceeSquared
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
TheGhostofOtto1923:
When i was a kid I used to have a hydrodynamic building set


Now it's more clear why you see Earth's problems as so linearly catastrophic.

supercharge the earth so that one unanticipated event would cause the whole thing to collapse? [...] eliminate the social systems that continue to force overgrowth? Wouldn't it be safer to begin finding ways of reducing our numbers rather than trying to support more?


Best would be to maintain social systems debugged to incent manageable growth instead of overgrowth. Don't succumb to the fallacy of the excluded middle.

Religions encode culture to perpetuate it. What's killing us is religions and other uncritical counterfactual belief systems (including advertising consumption) trumping reason. Religion must yield to reason everywhere but metaphysics, which must not infringe others' right not to believe. Critical thinking is too outsourced to treacherous agents. Insourcing more of it can maintain us all.
EmceeSquared
2 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
greenonions1:
it is very difficult to find a business that is honest, and reliable.


That's what references are for: collective security social engineering.

the park [...] left for someone else to clean up. [...] learn not to shit in your own nest.


https://en.wikipe...olutions
But "your own nest" is not the commons; seeing one's stake in common property is even harder when since humans do foul our own nests.

EmceeSquared
2.8 / 5 (4) Jun 10, 2017
greenonions1:
How do you turn a whole culture of narcissists?


We have an opportunity as consumption turns more to software and content, and especially just connectivity. Durable property doesn't satisfy desire, without introspection it just fuels the fire (a central Buddhist insight). Research shows experiences satisfy more than property, and can be infinitely more sustainable to produce. Especially as VR arrives over the next 5-10 years, exploding once "social VR" is cheap enough for teenagers and easy enough for retirees, people will consume augmented versions of each other.

Of course those trends are easily used to alienate us even further than industry and media have already, as the worst of our political leaders will surely demonstrate. But the psychology and technology fundamentals can inspire empathy when they present highly interactive and personal impressions of each other.

Guarding ourselves with critical thinking tools will be essential to success.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
you have to learn not to shit in your own nest. So this program is at least an attempt to think about caring - and applying our science
Mother theresa claimed to care but she and the catholic church perpetuated the culture that caused poverty in the first place, by declaring birth control a sin.
How do you turn a whole culture of narcissists?
So youre saying that providing resources for overpopulators who have no concept of planning for the future or living within their means will somehow change this behavior?

You really think the slobs you described will change their behavior because you give them more?

Ever hear of tough love?

The above researchers are totally clueless as to the cause of the problem theyre trying to fix. And their fix will only make things worse.

BTW corruption and graft are a result of population pressure. People are forced to cheat and steal to get what they need.

This is why hitchens said 'religion poisons everything.'
Shootist
1 / 5 (4) Jun 10, 2017
Full Earth? Laughable.

If you subdivided an area the size of Texas into 1/4 acre lots, built a 4 bedroom house on each lot the entire planetary population could be housed there and have their own bedroom to boot, leaving the rest of the planet to raise cattle (real food for real people) and drill for petroleum (full time power for a 21st century civilization).
greenonions1
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
Otto
So youre saying that providing resources for overpopulators who have no concept of planning for the future or living within their means will somehow change this behavior?
Nope - I don't think that - or that giving the slobs more will change their behavior. I guess it takes generations to change a culture. I agree with you - that losing religion will be a big step. Not saying that atheists are better or worse in this respect - just that critical thinking seems key to me - and religion depresses critical thinking. 'It must be true - cuz god said it in the holy book'
corruption and graft are a result of population pressure.
I don't think that is the whole picture. Trump and Putin et al are billionaires - and still want more more more - and will screw over their grandmother to get another dollar/ruble. I wish I knew the answer - I think that maybe the first step is the conversation.
Eikka
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Research shows experiences satisfy more than property


What if you desire the experience of creating property, such as the art of woodworking, or real art instead of poorly simulated virtual insta-satisfaction that has no substance?

Durable property doesn't satisfy desire, without introspection it just fuels the fire (a central Buddhist insight)


So you should deny property and cling on the immaterial instead?

The central Buddhist insight is that you cannot satisfy desire anyhow, because you always seek more, yet trying to deny desire is also desire because you're desiring not to desire. Therefore you suffer because you never get what you want. All the dharma you'll find is just different angles on this problem, because you won't believe it just by being told how it is - a fool has to persist in their folly to become wise and reach a personal insight before they get it.
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
Trump and Putin et al are billionaires - and still want more more more - and will screw over their grandmother to get another dollar/ruble


I think, especially for Putin, that these people have painted themselves into a corner because they have made so many enemies that they really don't have an out anymore - they can't go into quiet retirement and live in a dacha somewhere nice, because the next guy who replaces them will expose all their misdeeds and hang them. Their wealth and power is a life insurance.

So their only option is to keep increasing in power.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2017
I agree with you - that losing religion will be a big step. Not saying that atheists are better or worse in this respect
Atheists dont force their women to reproduce until it kills them.
Trump and Putin et al are billionaires - and still want more more more - and will screw over their grandmother to get another dollar/ruble
-And this is utter, unmitigated bullshit. So if you live in the fantasy land where you think that being nice to bad guys will make them good, and you think that what you learn on swamp tv is true, then
I wish I knew the answer
-no, no you dont. You just like to hear the sound of you ta;king.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
That's why I suggested they crack H2O/CO2 into liquid fuels, served by the same tanker infrastructure serving today's oil/gas system.

I don't really think we need to limit ourselves to the dead zones. The amount of area needed for covering humanity's full energy needs via PV is pretty tiny. We could easily get this from floating PV close-to-shore areas without any impact on the environment. No extra tanker infrastructure needed. (Though I think having mid-ocean refueling stations and converting the regular kind of cargo ships to fuel cells would be a good idea)
greenonions1
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
-no, no you dont. You just like to hear the sound of you ta;king.
Yeah - I think that is fair. You don't talk? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the great zen state you have arrived at - where it is just for the enlightenment of others that you suffer the indignity of having to talk - but someone has to make sacrifices - right?
greenonions1
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
Atheists dont force their women to reproduce until it kills them.
Neither do Lutherans. We agree that our world would be better off without religion. Labeling all religious people with the atrocities of the worst - is lazy.
Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
@greenO, i have to interject
Neither do Lutherans
this is entirely dependent upon the leadership as well as where the church is located

they can be every bit as third world

that is not to say that all lutherans are the same, mind you, because like any religious group, each church is different and each person is different as well

this is one of the problems with religion, IMHO
the other problem is it's structure actually teaches prejudice
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2017
Atheists dont force their women to reproduce until it kills them
@otto
this really depends upon the culture and where in the world you are

if you're a farming culture in a third world nation living remote without access to medicine or first world medical care (like say: the Txapanawa) then you will attempt to have as many kids as possible hoping that the majority (or at least a few) make it to reproduce themselves

religion may well be central to a lot of the current world overpopulation problem, but it's mandate typically stems from historical cultures and their need to reproduce as many as possible for work, war and more
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2017
Atheist cultures don't force their women to reproduce until it kills them.

China had the 1 child per family laws. China and the USSR both had by far the greatest number of ABORTIONS since roe v wade. Both kept pops poor to restrict growth.

But even communism is a pseudoreligion isn't?

Pagan farming cultures throughout the world were overrun by todays megareligions. Their people were forced to adopt the standard oppression of women for the purpose of maximizing growth, and this is how these religions prevailed. 'Warfare of the cradle is what teddy Roosevelt called it.

Even pagans knew how to live within their means. Infanticide was a common method of restricting growth throughout europe and the americas before the coming of the godman.

Pagan midwives throughout Europe were deemed witches and burned at the stake for teaching contraception and natural abortion.

Just a few examples.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2017
Neither do Lutherans
Uh huh. Martin Luther read the same book as Henry VIII and pope Gregory. They all loved the passage which read 'be fruitful and multiply... fill up the earth with xians.'

That's why they are still here. Cathars, manachaeans, and shakers not so much.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Uh huh
So you are arguing that Lutherans do "force their women to reproduce until it kills them" - is that correct? A quick look at trends in protestant denominations in the U.S. - would suggest that they are doing a poor job - if their objective is to maintain numbers through mass reproduction. http://www.pewfor...the-u-s/
While the overall Christian share of the population has dropped in recent years, the number of Americans who do not identify with any religion has soared.

On another note Otto - you bitch slap me with a childish insult about hearing myself talk - you stalk gkam - and insult him mercilessly. Is needing to hurt other peoples feelings - any better than liking to hear yourself talk?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
"Luther explains three "good and useful things" which "the doctors of the church have found": first, that it—marriage—is a sacrament; second, that it is a covenant of fidelity; and third, that marriage is for the production of offspring."

"The status of women in the Protestant Reformation was the role of wife and mother, just as the men's role was that of husband, father, or son."

"Women were to be silent, obedient, and to perform household tasks. The purpose of women's education was the development of an accepted concept of marriage and training in domestic skills. Women were taught how to look after children, care for their homes, make clothing for her family, and tend livestock."
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
"Martin Luther himself taught that "the wife should stay at home and look after the affairs of the household as one who has been deprived of the ability of administering those affairs that are outside and concern the state…."[4] John Calvin agreed that "the woman's place is in the home.""
would suggest that they are doing a poor job - if their objective is to maintain numbers through mass reproduction
You are naive if you think this little shaving of history which we call the present is any reflection of the nature of your religion. Has the book changed? What has changed then? 1) this country no longer needs filling up; 2) people in this country have learned how to live within their means; and 3) religionists are no longer allowed for the most part to behave in the manner that their books describe.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Like stumpy says religionists will revert whenever the opportunity arises. The Taipei rebellion was caused by Baptist missionaries and killed 20M. The Rwanda massacre was encouraged by Catholic priests and nuns. Etc.
you bitch slap me with a childish insult about hearing myself talk
oh so sorry to injure your delicate sensibilities. Perhaps it is that you dislike being wrong?
you stalk gkam - and insult him mercilessly
Many people here have taken the effort to expose George kamburoff for the lying cheat that he is. Do not demean their efforts to inform physorg participants of the nature of this psychopath.

People like that will get no rest here.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
religionists are no longer allowed for the most part to behave in the manner that their books describe.
Their book also says that if the woman does not bleed on her wedding night - she will be stoned. So the short answer to the question I ask you - is that you know that current day Lutherans do not do that. I am an atheist - affiliated with no religion. So again - it is lazy to try labeling all religious folks - with the atrocities of the worst - is lazy. The nice people at the funny little Lutheran church around the corner from me - do not do that. They are not the brightest bulbs on the string - but the smarter ones could see through the nonsense - and don't go there any more.
greenonions1
4.5 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2017
oh so sorry to injure your delicate sensibilities. Perhaps it is that you dislike being wrong?
Correct again - I dislike being wrong - as you do. I dislike bullies also. On the gkam issue. There are a lot of trolls on this board. Willie Ward is a perennial liar - who is pushing a political agenda. So is shootist, julian penrod etc. etc. etc. I am not saying gkam is a troll. I am saying that you go out of your way to bully gkam. Maybe gkam is a liar - so is Willie, Shootist etc. You seem to want to pick on one person and be a bully. I am just saying this next part to make a point. You are clearly not smart enough to understand that Andrea Rossi is a scam artist. Does that flaw make it OK for me to bully you? Should I let you alone with that delusion - or relentlessly spend my time trying to bully you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Their book also says that if the woman does not bleed on her wedding night - she will be stoned
- And rest assured that somewhere in the world xians are dutifully carrying this out. And they could very well be Lutherans.

What makes YOU think you have the right to pick and choose which of gods edicts to carry out?
nice people at the funny little Lutheran church around the corner from me - do not do that
-while elsewhere the very same sort of good and decent -nice- people are. Because your god TELLS them it is the only way to get to heaven.

Your nice people DO believe that people can't be good and decent and honest unless they believe in the godman. That seed is capable of growing into almost anything.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
What makes YOU think you have the right to pick and choose which of gods edicts to carry out?
I don't believe in god - what does that question mean?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Maybe gkam is a liar - so is Willie, Shootist etc. You seem to want to pick on one person and be a bully. I am just saying this next part to make a point
I remember when stumpy had the exact same attitude. Ira as well. Now they both feel the same way i do, along with many others. What do You think made them change their minds?
You are clearly not smart enough to understand that Andrea Rossi is a scam artist
-and neither are you but you seem to think you are. I am smart enough not to jump to conclusions which I never have with LENR/hydrino/EM drive etc.
don't believe in god - what does that question mean?
Sorry I misread your initial comment re Lutherans. You said 'we'.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
Eikka: [qWhat if you desire the experience of creating property

Most artists are compelled by the experience rather than by the property it creates. This is the core of their stereotypical bad business sense. Research shows that people are more satisfied by experiences, eg. of artworks, than of owning property eg artwork.

real art instead of poorly simulated virtual insta-satisfaction that has no substance?


Well, if it's poorly simulated that's not a fair comparison. High quality VR will probably have the same substantial experience as high quality physical art - at least as audiovisual art does (until other senses enter VR).

deny property and cling on the immaterial instead?

The central Buddhist insight is that you cannot satisfy desire anyhow


No, it's the clinging that Buddhism says is the problem; the solution is to let go, mainly by meditation. I don't know about "deny property", but research shows letting it go in favor of experiences.
greenonions1
4 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
and neither are you but you seem to think you are
No - really I am. So are many others. http://newenergyt...ex.shtml One part of critical thinking - is the ability to identify patterns, and if they are meaningful. But you really miss the point. Physorg has numerous crazy - dishonest - delusional - conspiracy theory - political agenda jerks. Shootist would be a good example. The big mistake gkam made was posting personal information - and not understand the level of meanness that exists on the internet. I made the same mistake to a lesser degree - and a hateful little antigoracle hounded me for months. I dropped of the board for a while - to let it settle. But you just pick on one person relentlessly. I am just calling that like I see it - bullying.
TrollBane
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
But how does this make You Know Who richer?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
needing to hurt other people's feelings
"It has often been noted that psychopaths have a distinct advantage over human beings with conscience and feelings because the psychopath does not have conscience and feelings.

"Oh, indeed, they can imitate feelings, but the only real feelings they seem to have - the thing that drives them and causes them to act out different dramas for effect - is a sort of "predatorial hunger" for what they want...

"And make no mistake about it: you can NOT hurt their feelings because they don't have any! They will pretend to have feelings if it suits their purposes or gets them what they want. They will verbalize remorse, but their actions will contradict their words."
I dropped out for awhile
-or got banned perhaps?
EmceeSquared
3 / 5 (2) Jun 10, 2017
Shootist:
If you subdivided an area the size of Texas


If you shuffled the population that way and maintained the same consumption, Texas would still need over 1.7 Earths to sustain it:
https://www.washi...ootprint

While all that drilled petroleum would still devastate the environment Texas depended on. Of course, if all you left alive was humans and cattle, they'd die anyway before the petroleum pollution got them.

Not that any of that matters to you. You're nothing but a troll, you don't care about anything except hassling the 99.999% of humans who are less "Conservative" than you are.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2017
antialias_physorg:
get this from floating PV close-to-shore areas without any impact on the environment.


Maybe, but totally covering the area is I think the most efficient use of the area, the infrastructure and the operational staff (even if they're full of robots). Without an actual study to back that up I can't say. I do think that we should build solar scale up to generate fuels cracked directly from CO2, killing two Greenhouse birds with one stone. Because it would directly reduce Greenhouse CO2 instead of increasing it (sequestering it in the vast fuel amounts stored in the distribution system). And because it's simple energy storage using existing infrastructure (so minimal emissions from building new infrastructure).

But we should do both - and more. We've got to migrate a big, complex, ramified energy infrastructure yesterday (actually in the 1990s), so doing everything that makes sense on its own is a good way to ensure we're getting the best ways done quickest.
EmceeSquared
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
Captain Stumpy:
(like say: the Txapanawa) then you will attempt to have as many kids as possible hoping that the majority (or at least a few) make it to reproduce themselves


The Txapanawa don't practice abortion? I don't know, but abortion has been the norm among societies until modern industrialized Christians (including the Catholic aristocracy) turned against it. Especially among more rural, uneducated, agricultural and hunter-gatherer people.
EmceeSquared
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 10, 2017
TheGhostofOtto1923:
"Luther explains three "good and useful things"


None of what you said mentions abortion. Indeed, though abortion has been well known to every society, especially to its "moral guardians", the absence of edicts controlling abortion tacitly condones its status quo. But Luther was a half millennium ago, and few Lutherans today have even heard of the explanations you're citing.

US Lutherans are mostly members of either the Evangelical or the Missouri Synod branches. Evangelical doctrine is that abortion is the woman's choice until the fetus is viable outside the womb, while Missouri Synod is that only when the mother's life will be saved from death by abortion is it moral. Evangelical is almost twice as big as Missouri Synod, so nearly 2/3 of Lutherans. So "Lutherans" don't force their women to reproduce until death.
greenonions1
not rated yet Jun 10, 2017
Otto
-or got banned perhaps?
No - I just chose to lay low for a while. No different than when you did the same thing. I remember you mentioning it.
Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 11, 2017
I am just calling that like I see it - bullying
@greenO
IMHO - it's not bullying if said liar started the attacks in the first place and then threatened all kinds of legal and other action

hell, i tried to help the idiot and look where that got me

liar-kam is a psychopath that needs to try and make people think he is something special because otherwise he will have to admit he's just another loser yuppie crank with a store-bought degree

.

.

The Txapanawa don't practice abortion?
@EmceeSquared
not that i am aware of

they were just recently "discovered" in the amazon and had little to no contact outside of tribe and war with other tribes

AFAIK they're still mostly hunter/gatherers living primitive way back in isolation - without state aid or protection, really

Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 11, 2017
@EmceeSquared cont'd
The Txapanawa don't practice abortion? I don't know, but abortion has been the norm among societies until modern... Especially among more rural, uneducated, agricultural and hunter-gatherer people.
the Txapanawa are a recently contacted amazon people - http://news.natio...90.1.jpg

there are still a number of tribes in very isolated regions that are "un-contacted" for various reasons, be it gov't official policy or simply isolation due to vast expanses of rough country

http://news.natio...-brazil/

their primitive ways and cultures are limited to basic needs and survival, which is one reason that reproduction is a cause for joy

the more the offspring, the more likely the tribe is to survive, therefore the culture, and usually any religion, will drive this home as vital to the success of the tribe

greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
Captain
IMHO - it's not bullying if said liar started the attacks in the first place and then threatened all kinds of legal and other action
Your point is taken Captain. It's just the need to always get into personal attacks that bothers me. Think about this. Suppose gkam is mentally ill (as you guys consistently assert) and comments on Physorg. It seems that there are others who may well fit that description (penrod for example). So now when the con-trail stuff comes out - people seem to know it for what it is - and let it go. Funny thing there - my mum - who is fundy religious - believes the Russians are spreading cancer with con-trails. It just seems that when Otto harasses gkam - it is more about Otto's need to hurt someone's feelings - than a need to 'expose a crank.' Otherwise - why not go after every crank on the board?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
Suppose gkam is mentally ill (as you guys consistently assert) and comments on Physorg. It seems that there are others who may well fit that description
So since there are lots of idiots then we should just leave them alone?

PSYCHOPATHS are not normal cranks. Any time George posts his Shit here he will be attacked, and we will all learn something from it.

Are you clear on that? Do you think I have to repeat myself again?

"And make no mistake about it: you can NOT hurt their feelings because they don't have any! They will pretend to have feelings if it suits their purposes or gets them what they want. They will verbalize remorse, but their actions will contradict their words."

STOP continuing to feed this animal.
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
Are you clear on that? Do you think I have to repeat myself again?
No Ghost - I think we are clear on each other's position. I have tried to be clear on the point - that just as you feel that gkam has an issue - I also feel that you have an issue. You may feel the same towards me - which is fine right? I wish you did not see that as a justification for persistent personal attacks. I don't get that you don't see that calling someone names like "an animal" is just like school yard bullying.
OK - I will drop this thread.
Thanks
EmceeSquared
3 / 5 (2) Jun 11, 2017
Captain Stumpy:
[Txapanawan] primitive ways and cultures are limited to basic needs and survival, which is one reason that reproduction is a cause for joy

the more the offspring, the more likely the tribe is to survive, therefore the culture, and usually any religion, will drive this home as vital to the success of the tribe


What we do know is usual for cultures subsisting in forests, and generally prior to the industrial age, is they routinely practice abortion and even infanticide. Abortion at least is rarely if ever proscribed by their religions. While reproduction, including birth, remains a cause for joy.

Unless we have data (evidently we don't) that the Txapanawan prohibit abortion it's safe to assume they're like their similarly developed people we do have knowledge of: accepting abortion. If they do prohibit abortion they are by the same token a bad example as an exceptional case.

Subsistence and even moderate surplus culture typically includes abortion.
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Jun 11, 2017
Many if not most western nations have a birth rate that is less than the replacement rate. So one would think that we are making progress towards sustainability. Well, this is not true. The new world order western governments are encouraging immigration from over populated countries negating any gains that might have been made. You see the financial Ponzi scheme called banking needs an ever increasing supply of people in order to keep the whole system from crashing.
EmceeSquared
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 11, 2017
MR166:
encouraging immigration from over populated countries


Except that process converts foreigners who would reproduce more there into Westerners who reproduce less. So in fact the process you describe not only shows Western governments reducing our own populations, but also reducing the foreign populations by attrition.

Also, people who age out of productive labor must be supported by younger people still working - or else the old will spend a lot of time dying horribly. A better alternative to population growth funding it would be for workers to share the proceeds of their huge productivity growth over recent generations. Instead their extra produced value is captured by the biggest property owners, diverted from funding those who can't work.
Azrael
3.8 / 5 (4) Jun 11, 2017
So we've gone from discussing possibilities for solar energy harvesting with regards to land management and taken a turn straight into bashing "religion". Again.

I use quotations around the word "religion", because judging by most of Otto's posts, it's not religion that he actually hates. People do all kinds of things religiously. Otto posts vitriol in the comments section of this site religiously.

Otto, we get it. You think people who don't agree with your world view are the cause of all the worlds problems, and you come here, to a layman-oriented science news article comments section, to vent your frustrations.

Here's a thought: Religion or no religion, all of mankind's problems were caused by mankind.
The consequences of people's pride, envy, lust, anger, gluttony, and greed are their fault.

No old book or magical sky daddy is responsible for people's bad behavior and the consequences thereof. It's the people. Take some responsibility, would you?
greenonions1
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
and taken a turn straight into bashing "religion". Again.
Obviously there is validity to identifying that our world has some pretty major problems. Look at famine, crime, prisons, poverty, environment etc. etc. I like your point that religion is of course a product of people - so the root cause is not religion - but people. And there are of course many problems separate from religion. This article seems to be at least an attempt at exploring solutions - and it would be neat to see a pilot program - to get some data. I guess the bigger problem for me - is wondering how we tip the scales - from being a species that normalizes violence, war, etc. - to one more interested in putting resources into solutions. Abandoning religion does seem to me to be an important step - if we are to make progress on that front.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Jun 11, 2017
I do think that we should build solar scale up to generate fuels cracked directly from CO2, killing two Greenhouse birds with one stone.

i'd rather see a hydrogen economy. Using liquid sun-cracked carbon fuels is a zero sum game- it reduces nothing. It helps nothing with the CO2 balance (there are always some losses in such a cycle).

I'd rather see it that the cycle contains no carbon at all.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
antialias_physorg:
Using liquid sun-cracked carbon fuels is a zero sum game- it reduces nothing.


Sun-cracked carbon fuels are zero sum in their own carbon cycle: emitting back when consumed, to be cracked again later into fuel. But they replace pre-charged carbon dug up from sequestration that emits into the atmosphere. So they reduce the extra carbon emitted from the ground to the atmosphere/ocean via consumption with a zero-sum.

Without manmade emissions the Earth will suck carbon back out of the air/oceans, thinning the Greenhouse.

Beyond that cracking also sequesters carbon extracted from the atmosphere into the fuels. Even just the strategic petroleum reserves sequester about 1.5 gigatonnes of carbon, plus the entire rest of the storage/distribution system is at least double and probably many more times that. 3-5+ Gt more carbon sequestered in cracked fuels would hasten the natural recovery into thinning the Greenhouse.
EmceeSquared
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 11, 2017
LochBein:
The suggestion of floating panels at sea is interesting, and may be another useful approach, but doesn't help an Indian village much.


It helps an Indian village by reducing the Greenhouse effect. Not all generating deployments are useful for all consumers. But overall more sustainable generation is useful for all humans.
EmceeSquared
3 / 5 (2) Jun 11, 2017
China is taking the lead away from the US in the 21st Century economy by embracing clean tech while Trump's US descends into the filthy 20th Century industrial systems:
"Floating solar farm reflects China's clean energy ambitions"
https://phys.org/...ons.html
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
... is they routinely practice abortion and even infanticide
@@emcee
for primitives: infanticide, yes
abortion? it's atypical to see "routine" practice

i think we differ on the point of routine

i've never seen any studies that show primitive cultures routinely practicing abortion, though i've seen plenty of evidence that it has happened and has had people who were versed in the techniques of the day

abortion in a primitive culture that has a high mortality rate is typically seen as wrong unless you're dealing with special circumstances

example: the Oglala
there have been abortions in the past (pre-european invasion), but they were rare. rare as in albino buffalo rare. not saying they didn't happen or that techniques weren't known... but that they were by no means "routinely practiced", nor were the techniques guaranteed by any means.

i think that is where we differ in our understanding
EmceeSquared
3 / 5 (2) Jun 11, 2017
Captain Stumpy:
... is they routinely practice abortion and even infanticide
@@emcee
for primitives: infanticide, yes
abortion? it's atypical to see "routine" practice

i think we differ on the point of routine


I don't mean that abortions were frequent in any one or in all pre-industrial cultures. I mean that abortion was practiced across most if not all pre-industrial cultures. The way that a root canal is "routine" in modern industrial cultures.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
judging by most of Otto's posts, it's not religion that he actually hates
No, its religion.
Here's a thought: Religion or no religion, all of mankind's problems were caused by mankind.
The consequences of people's pride, envy, lust, anger, gluttony, and greed are their fault
And as I recall you are a religionist yes?

And so your argument is that people are so full of pride, envy, lust, anger, gluttony, and greed that the only thing that would save us from ourselves was a godman sacrifice.

Now dont we feel guilty? Arent we ashamed? And arent all the people who dont fall for this foul attitude to demean and defame and belittle, evil as well?

And what do you suppose we do with evil people dear godder?

Jesus came to bring not peace but a sword. He says that family members would be killing each other over the chance to be saved; but what are the implications for anybody outside the family?

"KIll them all god knows his own." Same book different day.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
"Love thine enemies" says the book. But they are still your enemies yes? And what does the book say about enemies of the good and the decent and the just?

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Its still there. You all have just chosen to ignore it. That is, in your particular area, at this particular point in time.

Elsewhere, godders much more faithful and pious than you believe what the book says and are doing gods work which you are no longer permitted to do.

At the moment.

So I guess youll just have to settle for not doing business with them, or letting your kids play with theirs, or living anywheres near them. Because they ARE, after all, your enemies.

But of course youll still 'love' them wont you? Whatever that means.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
TheGhostofOtto1923:
No, its religion.


You're a strong advocate of depopulation. If you could convince either a million German atheists or a half million German Lutherans (50/50 M/F) to sterilize themselves upon getting the adult right to do so, which group would you choose to convince?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
@@emcee
for primitives: infanticide, yes
abortion? it's atypical to see "routine" practice
Prenatal infanticide - 20% of all pregnancies in the US, 25-33% china and russia, similar elsewhere except in religion-dominated countries.
http://www.johnst...6pd.html

-Abortion is routine, preempted pregnancies even moreso.

ONE BILLION since the 70s.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2017
abortion in a primitive culture that has a high mortality rate is typically seen as wrong
Thats not true

"Mad dogs we knock on the head; the fierce and savage ox we slay; sickly sheep we put to the knife to keep them from infecting the flock; unnatural progeny we destroy; we drown even children who at birth are weakly and abnormal..." seneca
Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 11, 2017
-Abortion is routine, preempted pregnancies even moreso.

ONE BILLION since the 70s
@otto
re-read what you quoted: you missed a few key words
for primitives
that part is important
the reason is simple: whereas it's known that they did employ abortion techniques (not always very successfully) it is not a routine or common occurrence
Thats not true
and again, the keywords are "routine" and "primitive"

if you have a primitive culture with high mortality rates due to pre-modern medical tactics (like say: Oglala pre european invasion) then you will not have "Prenatal infanticide - 20% of all pregnancies" as this would eventually decimate the tribe

like i said, those keywords of "routine" and "primitive" are important

you can't assume a primitive culture of hunter-gatherers using pointed sticks (or banana's and fruit -a la Python) is the same as a modern first world nation with capitalism and highly regulated specialised medical care
mtnphot
not rated yet Jun 11, 2017
You can put them on reservoirs, where the increased shade will reduce evaporation and lake temperature.
EmceeSquared
3 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
mtnphot:
You can put them on reservoirs, where the increased shade will reduce evaporation and lake temperature.


Yes, Phys.org has an article about a Chinese installation on a lake:
"Floating solar farm reflects China's clean energy ambitions"
https://phys.org/...ons.html

But lakes and reservoirs have their own ecosystems. In most cases they're integrated with the surrounding ecosystems (around the watering hole). We will have to decide whether to again slam these ecosystems for human development. We will probably decide "yes", especially if this time it's our survival not just cheap growth that's at stake.
Gigel
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
You can just put them vertically with the right geometry and there will be fewer problems.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
You can just put them vertically with the right geometry and there will be fewer problems.

You can't trick geometry that way. Insulation is by area (i.e. area of ground covered). A vertical setup will just shade a large area behind it (depending on position of the sun also other panels).
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
Abortion is routine, preempted pregnancies even moreso.

ONE BILLION since the 70s
@otto
re-read what you quoted: you missed a few key words
Sorry I thought that was my quote. But it does depend on what sort of 'primitives' you are talking about. Slave pregnancies were often terminated. Island inhabitants with limited resources had higher rates.

And what makes you think oglala had high mortality rates?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
For instance pre-contact amerinds derived most of their sustenance from agriculture and lived healthier lives than their euro counterparts.
https://theanarch...evisited

Gigel
4 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
You can't trick geometry that way. Insulation is by area (i.e. area of ground covered). A vertical setup will just shade a large area behind it (depending on position of the sun also other panels).

You're right, but you're missing the point. It's not solar energy that is expensive and hard to get, it is land. Try building a PV power plant near a city. Wouldn't it be better to do it vertically? The folks may even enjoy the shade (which will be moving during the day).
Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
And what makes you think oglala had high mortality rates?
@otto
1- all primitive tribes pre-contact amerinds had high mortality rates which worsened after contact

2- they still have excessively high mortality rates: well above typical US norms
a taste of their current status
https://www.cdc.g...r020.pdf

https://www.cdc.g...alth.htm

https://www.cdc.g...6001.pdf

pre-contact amerinds derived most of their sustenance from agriculture and lived healthier lives than their euro counterparts
yes and no
whereas they were better versed in herbal medications locally, that didn't mean they had a good idea as to how to heal or treat medically (there was no scientific methodology and a sh*t load of "holy men" and healers)
But it does depend on what sort of 'primitives' you are talking about
true, but i am specifically talking about primitive as in the "pre-contact amerinds" of the america's
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
No, it's the clinging that Buddhism says is the problem; the solution is to let go, mainly by meditation.


There is an old koan; a monk was sitting in the garden meditating when his teacher sat by and asked "Why are you meditating?". The monk answered "To become a Buddha" (to reach enlightenment)

So the teacher took two flat stones and started rubbing them together, and this distracted the monk and he asked, "What are you doing?". "I'm polishing these stones into a mirror", came the answer.

So the monk said, "You can't make a mirror by rubbing stones together."
"You can't make a Buddha by sitting in meditation.", replied the teacher.

One of the reasons all the gurus or teachers will have you sit in mindless meditation for weeks on end is to show to you that it doesn't do anything relevant. If anything you just become a buddha statue, but some people find that amusing, so they start clinging to meditation instead.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
Wouldn't it be better to do it vertically?

It would be best if building facades were covered in PV panels per default. Prices have been coming down and there are enough technologies that still produce in ambient conditions (without direct sunlight).

I wouldn't mix panels and arable land at all. There's no need. If you look at the map how much area is needed for 100% power from solar then I'd like to see the person who can argue with a straight face that there aren't enough non-arable plots out there close to wherever the power is needed to set these up.
http://www.busine...5-9?IR=T

...and those areas aren't even taking wind (on- and off -shore), hydro (rivers or wave generation), biofuels, or off shore solar into account.

PV competing with farmland is one of those non-problems (as is on-shore windfarms competing with farmland - if one ever bothers to look at an aerial photograph of a wind farm).
Gigel
5 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
antialias_physorg, I think you have quite a point there - but at a larger scale, from a district/county level up to global level. But if you are the one setting up the business (that is a field scale), then you may see an advantage in running 2 businesses on the same plot. If you are a city mayor or an investor in a city area, again cramming things together may be better. Your point is valid though.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
Eikka:
I'm polishing these stones into a mirror. [...] You can't make a Buddha by sitting in meditation.


Buddhism also teaches that one "becomes the Buddha" by reincarnation over and over, making progress each lifetime in letting go. There's various meditation traditions, but overall they involve rigorous study of Buddhist principles great and small, including quotations from Gaudama Buddha, canonical history and koans, with meditation practicing letting go of those and other conscious thoughts. Buddhism also teaches letting go of letting go.

Practicing anything "perfects" it, but what's perfected depends on what one practices. Rubbing stones together can eventually make a mirror, but only through persistent rubbing of a certain kind.

Practicing meditation can help to let go of desire. If it replaces material desires with desire for meditation, that still shows people more satisfied by experiences than by property. Reincarnation is an exercise left to the reader :).
antialias_physorg
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
then you may see an advantage in running 2 businesses on the same plot

That's why I think we should look into low-cost PV on plastic film which could be spread over fields in winter. While the PV output in winter isn't big it would offset the lessened output from other PV installations.
Remember: Maximum output is not the the point of a business case. The point is to maximize profit. Producing a little at times where energy production elsewhere is low is more profitable than producing a lot at a time when you can't sell it.

Arable land needs the sunlight itself for photosynthesis during the growing season. I can't see where having PV panels on top would be worth the tradeoff in growing less crops (or needing a longer season - with all the risks that that entails).
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
antialias_physorg:
Arable land needs the sunlight itself for photosynthesis during the growing season. I can't see where having PV panels on top would be worth the tradeoff in growing less crops (or needing a longer season - with all the risks that that entails).


Well, the point of the tech "concept" in this article is to have PV without without blocking sunlight from vegetation, so no tradeoff. I do agree that its extra costs per output are probably a worse alternative to full spectrum PV elsewhere, except maybe in some few cases where there really is no area suitable within efficient transmission distance. The article doesn't account for other effects on vegetation losing non-photosynthesis bands, but very possibly keyed to other plant physiology.

There's vastly more insolation than human energy consumption, including through orbital space. This multi-band/multi-application solar concept seems like a very low priority compared to alternatives like "all roofs".
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
antialias_physorg:
low-cost PV on plastic film which could be spread over fields in winter.


Yes, this seems like an energy-profitable application of polymer PV films, since much industrial agriculture already spreads "dumb" films with only small thermal upsides. If the PV films can power processes underneath that improve the fields' health, so reduce the need for otherwise powered systems (tractors, insecticides/sprayers), they could offer a big upside in full year management.
antialias_physorg
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
The article doesn't account for other effects on vegetation losing non-photosynthesis bands, but very possibly keyed to other plant physiology.

Yes. Heat does play a part in making metabolism happen. Taking that away will surely have some adverse effects.

This multi-band/multi-application solar concept seems like a very low priority compared to alternatives like "all roofs".

Exactly. It might have some application in extremely high density areas. But I can't really think of any that would fit that bill (maybe Hong Kong)

In the end: Having some land that is optimized for farming, some for water reclamation and some for energy production (particularly since multi-band PV is no longer just a lab thing) is surely more efficient than having three systems coexist on the same parcel of land.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
antialias_physorg:
The article doesn't account for other effects on vegetation losing non-photosynthesis bands, but very possibly keyed to other plant physiology.

Yes. Heat does play a part in making metabolism happen. Taking that away will surely have some adverse effects.


Also I don't know if it's known the effect of non-visible light on triggering hormones and other physiology that affects metabolism. Do seasonal responses depend on the changing insolation spectrum even outside the photosynthesis band? What about other organisms in the immediate ecosystem, including symbiotics. Etc.

Since these innovations are driven by hitting the limits of ignoring the precautionary principle, they really should be under that principle's control.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
@otto
1- all primitive tribes pre-contact amerinds had high mortality rates which worsened after contact
No they didnt. You didnt read the link I gave you.

"In actuality, fully two-thirds of all the vegetal foodstuffs now consumed by humanity were under cultivation in Native America — and nowhere else — at the moment Columbus first set foot on Hispaniola."

"Upwards of 60% of the subsistence of most Native American societies came directly from agriculture, with hunting and gathering providing a decidedly supplemental source of nutrients (just as fishing did and does, throughout the world).[22] This highly developed agricultural base was greatly enhanced by extensive trade networks[23] and food storage techniques[24] which afforded pre-contact American Indians what was (and might well still be, if reconstituted) far and away the most diversified and balanced diet on earth."

Etc. Todays amerinds are unhealthy specifically because of western diets and alcohol.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
well above typical US norms
Amerinds were healthier than the euros who first arrived here.
whereas they were better versed in herbal medications locally, that didn't mean they had a good idea as to how to heal or treat medically (there was no scientific methodology and a sh*t load of "holy men" and healers)
Youre making all of this up.

"At a time when the cutting edge of European knowledge decreed that the application of leeches to drain off "tainted blood" was an effective treatment for all manner of ailments, and that causing the sick to be stung by hornets would cure bubonic plague, American Indians were widely utilizing holistic and preventative approaches to health care. Hygiene and sanitation were conspicuous elements of native life in the Americas, even while the absence of sewers in European cities gave rise to devastating epidemics, and bathing was considered a crime against god and king."
cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
"Native American pharmacology already contained a veritable cornucopia of "wonder drugs" including quinine, a close equivalent to aspirin, assorted vitamin compounds, anesthetics, analgesics, astringents, stimulants, antispasmodics, and a wide array of creams and ointments developed to facilitate the healing of every sort of wound, burn and abrasion.[31] A number of native peoples are also known to have established the procedures necessary to allow their performance of such operations as tumor removal, amputation of limbs, and brain surgery.[32] In this connection, it is worth noting that steel instruments never yielded the precision obtained by pre-contact indigenous practitioners with the obsidian blades they designed for use in their surgical activities; it was not until the advent of laser technologies during the 1970s that western science came to rival the accuracy inherent to traditional American Indian surgical tools."

Why ad lib? You looking for a fight again?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (2) Jun 12, 2017
Heres an interesting article from the uncopy/pastable NYT
http://www.nytime...lls.html

-about the relative health of precolumbians. It says that their health had been in decline for centuries; but further on you read that this was due to restricted agricultural selection and urban living. Specifically, people in the meso- and south-american cultures were less healthy than those in the north.

We can surmise that this was due to chronic overpopulation. Ritual wars, industrial-scale sacrifice, and public megaprojects such as pyramids and highway systems are further indications of runaway growth and desperate attempts to counter it.

And we can also assume that abortion and infanticide were part of these efforts. Perhaps these measures are what kept tribes in the north small and healthy and intertribal conflict at a minimum.
Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
You looking for a fight again?
no, but apparently you are, and you think you are infallible
You didnt read the link I gave you
the anarchist library? still going thru it, but it's a single ref, whereas i'm taking data from Haines/Steckel "a population history of north america" and this:
http://americanhi...175-e-27

Many American populations had been struggling to subsist, with declining populations, before Europeans arrived; the chaos, warfare, and demoralization that accompanied colonization made things worse.
the problem is the speculative nature and lack of physical evidnece

but you must also consider the anthropological data of disinterred natives, and thus far the data supports my point of high mortality

one major problem with this conversation is the lack of data from the unreported pre- euro invasion period, which is all word of mouth, and i know you hate that
Captain Stumpy
not rated yet Jun 12, 2017
cont'd
-about the relative health of precolumbians. It says that their health had been in decline... south-american cultures were less healthy than those in the north.
just FYI - i am still going through a lot of links and data

there isn't anything clear or concise supporting either argument unless you want to take tribal lore into account, and there is no central repository for you to research that one or validate a claim, hence the inability to utilize it as a source

there is also the subjectivity of the argument in that the definition of high mortality isn't clearly defined

if we use today as a marker of mortality, then all historical life had high mortality, so there is that to consider as well
And we can also assume that abortion and infanticide were part of these efforts
not unless there is evidence for it, because the oral traditions are far too subjective

hence the problem with evidence either way in N american pre- written history natives
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
and you think you are infallible
Now I already apologized for mistaking someone elses quote for my own. Is that something an Infallibel would do? Even aa doesnt do that. Hmmmm...
but it's a single ref
-which has very many excellent refs of its own. Such as

"A number of studies are relevant here. As a sample, see Herndon, G. Melvin, "Indian Agriculture in the Southern Colonies," North Carolina Historical Review, XLVI, 1967, pp. 283–97; Russell, Howard S., "New England Indian Agriculture," Bulletin of the Massachusetts Archaeological Society, XXII, April-July 1961, pp. 58–91; Vayda, A.P., "A Re-Examination of Northwest Coast Economic Systems," Transactions of the New York Academy of Sciences, Series 2, No. 23, 1961, pp. 618–24; and Sahlins, Marshall D., "Economic Anthropology and Anthropological Economics," Social Science Information, Vol. 8, No. 5, 1969, pp. 13–3"

-plus dozens more!
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
just FYI - i am still going through a lot of links and data
You might want to try jared diamonds 'guns germs and steel' for a nice rewrite of traditional propaganda re; why the savages deserved to die. He describes a vast mississippian culture thriughout the central US full of millions of people, dozens of fortified cities, trade up and down the river and as far away as florida and washington state.

Early explorers described this culture but by the time settlers got there 80 years later it was gone, the cities abandoned, the fields overgrown. Biowarfare had killed them all off for the glory of king and empire.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Jun 12, 2017
then all historical life had high mortality
And how do you know this? nd what do you mean by high?

"During the transition to agriculture of the Neolithic and Late Neolithic periods, the longevity for both men and women decreased significantly to 33.1 years for men and 29.2 years for women. More strikingly, the measures of health decrease dramatically. Male height drops from nearly five foot ten in the Paleolithic to approximately five-three in the Late Neolithic, and the pelvic index drops by 22%. People were not only dying younger, they were dying sicker. Similar patterns were seen in the Americas during the transition period. Overall, the data shows that the transition to an agricultural lifestyle made people less healthy." (Wells, 2011)
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
Buddhism also teaches that one "becomes the Buddha" by reincarnation over and over, making progress each lifetime in letting go.


Buddhism also teaches that reincarnation is actually an illusion, and the only thing that transfers between lives is karma, which is not some personal property or divine retribution but simply the causes and conditions of existence and the action that follows. What re-appears is a pattern of behaviour, not the person, until finally the causes and conditions are right for even the rocks and the sand to awaken: one is already Buddha.

Of course the gurus will say whatever you want to hear

Rubbing stones together can eventually make a mirror, but only through persistent rubbing of a certain kind


The original koan was talking about bricks or tiles. Rubbing them together in any way only results in very fine dust. Another simile is smoothing rough waters with a clothes iron. The more you try, the harder you try, the more waves you make
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
The thing with buddhism is that they serve everything you want to believe. The responsibility of disseminating the truth is in the listener. If you want to believe in ghosts and spirits, it's all up to you. Nobody can be forced to follow the path if they don't want to. Whatever you are taught is all an "upaya", or a means to nudge you in the general direction of true knowledge, since the true knowledge cannot be told in words or drawn in pictures. You may point a finger at it, but the problem is people tend to look at the finger instead because they don't realize that you are pointing.

So for a dumb person there's the long way around and for an intelligent person there's the short way, and for a crazy person there's a whole rollercoaster ride. You may not achieve anything in a lifetime, but if you are honest and kind then you will set up the conditions for the next person to realize what you didn't.

It is much like western philosophy of science.
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
Practicing meditation can help to let go of desire. If it replaces material desires with desire for meditation, that still shows people more satisfied by experiences than by property


The point is, you can't let go of desire. Keyword being "you". In the wheel of samsara there's six realms that signify different states: the gods, the anti-gods, the humans, the animals, the hungry ghosts, and hell. Each of them has some "problem", something that is lacking, each one coveting what the next one has. In the middle of the wheel is Buddha, the hub that sits still.

Letting go of one thing simply leads you to the other thing, and then to the other, around and around. Once you become bored of experience, you start craving material possessions again, and then spirituality, and back to money, or power, or ignorance, or knowledge, or whatever it is you don't have where you are.

So how do you stop? You don't. You can't. Nobody becomes Buddha, yet, nobody becomes Buddha.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2017
Eikka:
The thing with buddhism


I agree with your descriptions of Buddhist philosophy. Except that Buddhism does teach that desire is a consequence of attachment, that meditation is commonly an effective path to enlightenment that can achieve letting go of attachment and diminishing desire. Millions of Buddhists for millennia have demonstrated its truth. And so back to:

greenonions1:
How do you turn a whole culture of narcissists?


EmceeSquared:
We have an opportunity as consumption turns more to software and content, and especially just connectivity. Durable property doesn't satisfy desire, without introspection it just fuels the fire (a central Buddhist insight).


Eikka:
It is much like western philosophy of science.


Here I disagree. Western is materialist; Buddhist is that material is illusion. Though Western "holographic universe" might change the paradigm, it's still not the paradigm, while the hologram still comes from some other material.
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
Here I disagree. Western is materialist; Buddhist is that material is illusion.


That's a misunderstanding. Buddhism is fundamentally materialist - it denies anything "supernatural" or mystical in its strict sense. It maintains things work by necessity, by rule or law of nature, which may or may not extend to the existence of superior deities or the other stuff - that's up to you to decide.

Where it says that the material is illusion, it means that our perception of what is, is necessarily limited by our human condition. We cannot possibly know everything, and our point of view is not objective to begin with.

Of course you may construe that to mean that there are all kinds of mystical woo in this world, but that would be "avidya", or denial of reality, which again leads to suffering. What's important for Buddhism is not knowing everything in detail, but knowing everything in principle - the broad strokes of existence.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2017
Eikka:
So how do you stop? You don't. You can't. Nobody becomes Buddha, yet, nobody becomes Buddha.


Yet (according to Buddhism) somebody became Buddha. And Buddha said anyone could do it (perhaps only eventually, perhaps only after many reincarnations, incrementally) by letting go of desire, letting go of letting go, etc.

The point is not to determine the metaphysics (or perhaps just metapsychology) of Buddhism. The point is whether a whole culture of narcissists can be turned by some alternative to merely more property. The insight that more property just feeds more desire cyclically stands apart from a Buddhist version of it - I was just giving credit to a long and large tradition that agrees with the principle. More introspection, whether meditation or otherwise, is a better way to diminish desire for property than is more property.

Experience is scientifically documented to satisfy desire more than property does. Like meditation. That's a remedy for narcissism.
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
Yet (according to Buddhism) somebody became Buddha.


Nope. Shakyamuni actually said he was one of millions and millions of Buddhas, as many as there are grains of sand floating in the ganges river, times a billion, or something to that end.

There's also a story that when one reaches enlightenment they are taken up to heavenly mountains, so they can carve their name onto the stone. Problem is, once you get there you'll find out that every spot, every square millimeter is already carved on and the only place you'll find is by rubbing away some of the previous names of Buddhas that have already been there.

Experience is scientifically documented to satisfy desire more than property does. Like meditation. That's a remedy for narcissism.


There I can only contradict and ask for more evidence. The Buddhist point of view doesn't support your assertion.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2017
Eikka:
That's [Buddhist: material is illusion] a misunderstanding.


In Buddhism, the illusion of material is not supernatural, it's psychological. Yes the illusion is a human limit, as is "the illusion that all is illusion": All reality as humans can experience it is limited by the human mind, and even illusions are human constructs.

Western philosophy of science does not treat reality as a meta-illusion. It treats reality as external to human experience. This philosophy is not monolithic, but much of the dominant philosophy is Cartesian, treating the self and objects of the self's perception as (achievably) thoroughly independent. Even the often misconstrued "observer correlation" of quantum mechanics doesn't say that the measurements are illusions, or that they're a product of a conscious observer, but rather that the measurement changes something objectively real even if it cannot be perfectly measured, even by a (non-conscious) particle interacting with it.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2017
Eikka:
Nope. Shakyamuni actually said he was one of millions and millions of Buddhas


Yes, and each of those Buddhas was somebody who became a Buddha, or perhaps somebody became multiple Buddhas. But since there was a Buddha who was reincarnated into rebirth as Buddha, somebody became Buddha.
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
Western philosophy of science does not treat reality as a meta-illusion. It treats reality as external to human experience.


Partially true. It's an outgoing trend to hold the observer impartial to the observed. Much of the confusion in e.g. quantum mechanics comes from the idea that the scientists measuring the phenomenon are behaving in a classical manner while the phenomenon itself is not, but this is a misconception that is being actively rectified as a matter of course.

Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
Yes, and each of those Buddhas was somebody who became a Buddha, or perhaps somebody became multiple Buddhas. But since there was a Buddha who was reincarnated into rebirth as Buddha, somebody became Buddha.


Nope. They were all Buddha all along. Reaching enlightenment, becoming Buddha, is to exist outside of the wheel of samsara. The Buddha doesn't re-incarnate because karma doesn't apply. There's no pattern to repeat, nothing further to do, nothing to copy or strive towards. It's the end or the beginning, like trying to go further north from the north pole.

I know the formal, literal logic of it fails at explaination, but the fundamental point is that everyone, all is, already Buddha, whether you realize it or not. Every piece of dust that lands on your fingers is Buddha, you are Buddha - all you have to do is realize the fact, and no amount of meditation or reciting mantras is getting you there any faster.
Eikka
not rated yet Jun 13, 2017
So, once you reach the point of understanding, it is no longer important what you desire, or that you desire. Whether it's experience or material property, it's all irrelevant. Trying to prefer one instead of the other is not meaningful, trying to make the world a better place is not meaningful, because the world is already what you want it to be - all that's left to do is play along.

Ironically, or maybe satirically, that also includes arguing that it's not.

All the practice, all the meditation, all the koans, sutras, mantras, mandalas, rosaries, monasteries, chanting, everything are just there to entertain you in wait of the moment when you really get the point.
EmceeSquared
1 / 5 (1) Jun 13, 2017
Eikka:
So, once you reach the point of understanding, it is no longer important what you desire, or that you desire.


OK, except that the Buddha achieved final enlightenment within his lifetime. So he wasn't the Buddha, then he was. Sure, he always was going to be, and from a POV outside the wheel of samsara he always was because "becoming" is an illusion only within the wheel. But to maintain the same POV, somebody (himself as a youth) became the Buddha. Likewise all the other Buddhas in that other story with the manifold Buddha's names written (which is pretty contrary to Buddha-nature) were each not each other, or there'd be only one name.

In any case, the meditation and other props are indeed relevant and necessary to people pre-enlightenment. They were Buddha all along, but hadn't manifested, and needed something or another. Most people who achieve any enlightenment need something and continue to do so.

Yes, that's attachment to meditation etc, but step by step.

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