Dramatic vegetation changes in the past hint at dire future

Dramatic vegetation changes in the past hint at dire future
Yarra Ranges National Park in Victoria. Credit: Steven Penton, Flickr

A study on dramatic changes to Earth's vegetation as it emerged from the last ice age and temperatures rose has offered clues on the kinds of transformations that will occur to landscapes with similar increases in temperature anticipated over just the next 150 years.

ANU was part of the international research team that found two-thirds of the world's vegetation underwent significant changes from 21,000 years ago until the pre-industrial era, when the Earth warmed by four to seven degrees Celsius.

Knowing the relationship between temperature change and the degree of allowed the researchers to determine how ecosystems might be transformed under various greenhouse gas emissions models for this new study published in Science.

One of the ANU researchers, Professor Simon Haberle, said the team used the results from past changes to vegetation at 594 sites including every continent except Antarctica to assess the risk of future changes to ecosystems globally.

"We're already starting to see warning signs of big changes in vegetation across Australia, with declines in the Mountain Ash forests in Victoria and the Pencil Pine forests in Tasmania that are occurring, in large part, due to ," said Professor Haberle from the ANU Department of Archaeology and Natural History.

"Widespread and rapid changes to ecosystems are likely to have major knock-on effects for nationally important ecosystem services such as biodiversity, carbon storage and recreation."

Dr. Janelle Stevenson from the ANU School of Culture, History, and Language was a co-author on the new Science paper, which was led by the University of Arizona and involved a team of 42 authors from around the world.

"The palaeoecological data that was used for this study can be viewed as natural experiments exploring the response of to drivers of change over time scales that can't be captured by instrumental or historical records," Dr. Stevenson said.

ANU contributed and analysed datasets, based on ancient pollen records, for a large number of the sites from Australia and across the Pacific and South East Asia that had been compiled over decades.

"Pollen reflects the changes in landscape and vegetation cover, and the beauty of these ancient pollen records is that they allow us to see these changes over thousands to millions of years," Dr. Stevenson said.

"The parts of Earth that had the biggest temperature increases over the time period analysed also had the most substantial changes in vegetation.

"Our study provides yet another wake-up call that we need to act now to move rapidly towards an emission-free global economy."


Explore further

Prehistoric changes in vegetation help predict future of Earth's ecosystems

More information: Connor Nolan et al. Past and future global transformation of terrestrial ecosystems under climate change, Science (2018). DOI: 10.1126/science.aan5360
Journal information: Science

Citation: Dramatic vegetation changes in the past hint at dire future (2018, August 31) retrieved 16 October 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2018-08-vegetation-hint-dire-future.html
This document is subject to copyright. Apart from any fair dealing for the purpose of private study or research, no part may be reproduced without the written permission. The content is provided for information purposes only.
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Aug 31, 2018
Those with political prejudice and little education in science will now show us their character in response to this news.

Aug 31, 2018
You're just a young punk who knows nothing about life, and are going to tell us with decades more experience, how life works. This article is complete baloney, it adds no knowledge or value to this world. I'm guessing you have accomplished nothing so far in life, since you know it all.

Aug 31, 2018
Old_C_Code demonstrates nothing, for all his lifetime of experience, but the ability to employ a fallacious argument from antiquity backed by no evidence or logic whatsoever. It's also an ad hominem argument that tries to convince readers the premise of the article is wrong by attacking the supposed youth of another.

Aug 31, 2018
More baseless fear mongering from this website. The authors are idiots! I doubt anyone of them could predict a possible Sunrise on this planet. I can't remember seeing a bigger pile of hokum! When will we see some actual science displayed on this website?

Aug 31, 2018
"You're just a young punk who knows nothing about life, and are going to tell us with decades more experience, how life works."

Gosh, C code, I'm a 74 year-old Vietnam Vet and professional who had his own business consulting.

I also earned a Master of Science in this field, and have watched as those with no significant education ruin our Earth.

Aug 31, 2018
Ruin your Earth? Earth is hell you fool. We are lucky to survive without doing to much damage to...HELL! You dumbazz.

Aug 31, 2018
Masters in science means nothing, especially if you're 74. I know comp sci majors that can't program. You can't even think for yourself.

Aug 31, 2018
I don't see that there is much of a problem. This is EVOLUTION AT WORK. Adaptation due to changes in environment. Where one specie falls by the wayside, another springs up because it was able to adapt, change and improve on what came before.
Cats and dogs, cattle, even humans will adapt and change. And if they don't, then Nature will take its course. Feeling sorry for oneself will not help at all.

And we must not forget that some humans are deliberately killing, maiming, disabling themselves. Why do they do this, even in spite of all the dire warnings?
Because it's COOL; it's FUN; it's fashionable; it's a trendsetter; it gets them high so that they can lose touch with reality; and their FRIENDS DO IT.

Climate is ALWAYS CHANGING. This is why the Saudis, Iran and other nations have so much petrol under their desert sands from when their lands were overflowing with lush vegetation perhaps ~millions of years ago. Then the Ice Age arrived, after which the warming began.

Aug 31, 2018
Conservation and Recycling is key to a better, safer and saner world. Otherwise, the whole Earth will look more and more like the "Black Hole of Calcutta" aka Kolkata.

Aug 31, 2018
"You dumbazz."

I can tell by your professional verbiage you are really smart.

Aug 31, 2018
"dumbazz". Once again, the paragon of prose soars to the lofty heights of eloquence and erudition.

Aug 31, 2018
lol, you guys have accomplished nothing, I'm certain. Your worship of anything you read proves it. Accomplished people question things. Anyway this is a foolish article, get a brain.

Sep 01, 2018
1966, "Club of Rome" "There will be mass starvation by 1980 because of population growth and decline of agricultural problems."
Meanwhile, there is less starvation today despite there being 8 billion people than ever before.

Don't believe these doom-saying neurotics.

Sep 01, 2018
erudition? lol, you clown.

Sep 01, 2018
"the world achieved a new oil production record of 92.6 million barrels per day... in 2017"
LOL

Sep 01, 2018
"the world achieved a new oil production record of 92.6 million barrels per day... in 2017"
LOL

That is very good news!!!
Thanks!

Sep 01, 2018
Oh, boy, more pollution and more money and control by the Koch Brothers! Just what we need, more nasty stuff killing life on Earth.

We do not need to do this, we can turn to electric vehicles charged by the Sun. I do it.

Perhaps the C codes of life could catch up with progress?

I doubt it, this is not simple programming, it is a multidiscliplinary task requiring graduate level physics and chemistry and a knowledge of social organizations, and how things really work together.

Sep 01, 2018
Dude, I don't want to fight... programming requires you to think, think hard. It's good exercise. Solving multiple complex problems daily for decades, not simple programming.

Sep 01, 2018
That is good stuff. It involves the integration of lots of activities. It should have you understand the plethora of inputs and factors in the most complex of organisms, Life on Earth. It is all interrelated, and not easy to contemplate. Too many inputs, and complex factors.

In order to get my degree, I had to have calculus, thermodynamics, and graduate level Economics, Environmental Law, Chemistry and Physics to integrate together for analysis.

My work has not been in this field in which I earned the MS, it was in technical fields of energy and power, which also require the understanding of integrated systems.


Sep 01, 2018
C code, I have a slight understanding of how complex it would be to make a change in a program knowing it will probably affect something else which will have to be changed, too. That is the complexity of life on Earth. Everything affects every other thing, and we all live in this tuned system.

We are taking parts out of that system, and some want to think it will still work well. We are finding out the mistakes we have made and now they are deadly serious. And that is exactly the adjective to use.

Give the professionals in these fields the same respect you guys earned in your profession.

Sep 01, 2018
I don't see that there is much of a problem. This is EVOLUTION AT WORK. Adaptation due to changes in environment.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit

That IS a problem; "EVOLUTION AT WORK" in this case comes with extinctions and brutality. Just because something is 'natural' (such as evolution) doesn't mean it is good. RABIES is also natural!
+ you can argue this by definition isn't 'natural' anyway because WE humans are causing it.

Climate is ALWAYS CHANGING. ....
but not usually as fast as it has been recently thus making it more harmful + We are causing the most recent change and just because climate naturally changes doesn't mean we should change it for the worse. Using your same logic, it's OK to kill someone because death normally naturally occurs anyway.

Sep 01, 2018
Life is complex, and hell on Earth. Most no one wants pollution, even the radical conservatives.
Humans have spent most their existence in deeply oppressive situations, we are so lucky to have power lines that don't fail (usually) now. These researchers have no idea what will really happen, warming is better than cooling. This is just common sense. We are still in an ice age, see the poles. 30% rise in CO2 is not 30% rise in temperature, or any value. I'll take my 1's now, for thinking for myself. :)

Sep 01, 2018
"erudition? lol, you clown"
Well, if ever there was a detailed, rational refutation that's it. (In fantasy land.)

Sep 01, 2018
Dude, so what? I've had calculus, economics, chemistry and physics too ( analytical mech and E&M). But most people don't use them and lose them. And just reading academics is not the lab. I did as an EE, then got pushed into code because no one else could write machine code on the 68HC705. Having academic degrees doesn't mean too much (unless a gov job) in industry now. They want people who know what they're doing and can actually develop products. You got to be able to make someone money to make money yourself... Oh and warming is better than cooling, to deny this makes you a bonehead. :)


Sep 01, 2018
I've seen the word "clown" in a book before, genius.

Sep 01, 2018
warming is better than cooling. This is just common sense.
Old_C_Code

No, it clearly isn't, especially if you live in a hot country. Will warming be better than cooling if you live in a hot place in India?
Even in England were I live, I have experiences some very long unpleasant summer heat waves that felt to me actually worse than the worst winters I experienced thus NOT "just common sense" that cooler is better.

Sep 01, 2018
"I've seen the word "clown" in a book before, genius."

Is that what the C means?

Sep 01, 2018
Your coding does not help you understand the physical sciences I see.

I almost got sucked into machine language programming for linear circuits at National in 1973, but got out of it to keep working on the systems.

Environmentalism is much more complex.

Sep 01, 2018
Give the professionals in these fields the same respect you guys earned in your profession.


The professionals in this field are as big a joke as you are! You are a fraud! You know nothing about Physics and I doubt you know any Chem or Math.

Get a real education!

Sep 01, 2018
Yeah, because you say so, or because you know nothing of it and are just here because of political prejudice?

Sep 01, 2018
Yeah, because you say so, or because you know nothing of it and are just here because of political prejudice?


No Sunshine, I do know the subjects. It is only uneducated Yanks like yourself, that base everything on politics because you lack the education to think for yourself.

Sep 01, 2018
Even bigots in other nations should take science.

Sep 01, 2018
gkam says..."Environmentalism is much more complex"

So an environmental computer program that predicts damage is less complex? lol No!!!

Sep 01, 2018
Even bigots in other nations should take science.


That includes you!

Sep 01, 2018
I don't see that there is much of a problem. This is EVOLUTION AT WORK. Adaptation due to changes in environment.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit

That IS a problem; "EVOLUTION AT WORK" in this case comes with extinctions and brutality. Just because something is 'natural' (such as evolution) doesn't mean it is good. RABIES is also natural!
+ you can argue this by definition isn't 'natural' anyway because WE humans are causing it.

Climate is ALWAYS CHANGING. ....
but not usually as fast as it has been recently thus making it more harmful + We are causing the most recent change and just because climate naturally changes doesn't mean we should change it for the worse. Using your same logic, it's OK to kill someone because death normally naturally occurs anyway.
says humy

You seem to be having a problem with the "Causes and Effects" of the Natural Order. A very large asteroid could smash the Earth to pieces and that would end your worries about GW.

Sep 01, 2018
-CONTINUED-
There have ALWAYS been extinctions AND brutality. This is what life IS. If you are seeking to enjoy a Paradise on Earth, there is no such thing.
The are those who complain continuously wrt the excessive population of humans on Earth and how it is humans who are the ones destroying the environment and your way of life. But before humans and other animals of the same genus, there were many other things that could have gone wrong that would have annihilated ALL life on Earth, except for microscopic life e.g. bacteria. Those who complain about too many humans existing and procreating (and they know who they are), are the ones who would most prefer that humans die and procreation would be a thing of the past.
The genocidal haters of humanity are supporters of the "science of eugenics", those "scientists" who are trying to find better ways of eliminating large populations, supposedly for the greater good.

Sep 01, 2018
But spending billions of dollars on something that 'might' be a problem in a 100 years, makes no sense when there's more important things to spend it on which will actually help people now.

Sep 01, 2018
-CONTINUED-
They have already murdered countless human babies in every nation - and done so with pride.
IIRC Nazi Germany had some very effective eugenics programs to eliminate their "undesirables". We tend to loathe the eugenics programs of the Nazis to rid Europe of the physically and mentally disabled, as well as Jews, Catholics, clergy, certain educators, political misfits, and political opponents, but we welcome the establishment of abortion clinics to rid society of unwanted perfectly healthy babies. We don't loathe the killing of babies in the US or in other nations. But we are so concerned that CO2 will cause the rise of the seas and drown people. Murder is murder, but many folks don't see it as such.

Sep 01, 2018
P.S. Do you know where the 97% of scientists agree number came from? From a research group who scanned the web looking for academic climate articles, read them, and said Yes for any that "seemed" to support GW. By the way,100% of scientists agree that integration by parts calculus works. And 100% of scientists agree little g is 32 ft/sec/sec. I'll listen to the number 100% guys.

Sep 01, 2018
Egg: things are better now than ever before in history... lower crime, less poverty, greater life expectancy, more people with electricity than ever; in the world. The doomsayers are angry at everything for no good reason, from a rough childhood no doubt.

Sep 01, 2018
But spending billions of dollars on something that 'might' be a problem in a 100 years, makes no sense when there's more important things to spend it on which will actually help people now.


I agree. But humans tend to develop a severe case of myopia when they are hammered with propaganda from the media by AGW hysteria. Many are those who had turned a blind ear to the logistics of volcanic effects on ice in the Antarctic. And they are now concentrating on the Arctic ice melting, amongst other frights and flights of fancy.

Gkam and his rechargeable battery-powered car seems to be unaware that his car is recharged at night (while not in use) by electricity that flows through wires, and that electricity is created by power plants burning coal, oil, and/or gas. Gkam is also suffering from myopia, as many others are.

Sep 01, 2018
Egg: things are better now than ever before in history... lower crime, less poverty, greater life expectancy, more people with electricity than ever; in the world. The doomsayers are angry at everything for no good reason, from a rough childhood no doubt.
says C_Code

Nothing comes easy in life. But when people complain too much, it is obvious that they are just bitter and nothing will ever make them satisfied with what they've got - or have the ability to get.
Yes, it is true that things are so much better now, in terms of societal evolution and availability of the necessities. But I fear that here in the States, many of the younger generation have bought and are clinging to what the Leftist propagandist movement has forced into their brains full of mush. And these kids don't have the capability to think - the way the World War 2 generation understood life to be.

And it is sad that American kids are growing up with such unAmerican thoughts/opinions in their heads.

Sep 01, 2018
Having been a Senior Engineer in Technical Services for Pacific Gas & Electric, I DO know where my power comes from. Ain't no coal or oil used, mostly gas, wind, hydro, some geothermal, some nukes on their way out, PV- both commercial and residential, and small amounts of other sources.

Is yours from polluting sources?

Sep 01, 2018
Egg Unit gets this way every time he gets a snoot full of coal exhaust.

The Sun may go from East to West, but the future goes from West to East. Get in line and keep your hands to yourself. We will show it to you.

Sep 01, 2018
Basically, I am still a foreigner living in the States. But I think that I am better able to comprehend the nature of what has befallen both the Democrat and Republican parties. The Democrat Party members have no love for the American citizens and their basic requirements for living, at the very least, comfortably and without want, if at all possible. The Republican Party, OTOH, is most of all - Business minded. And why not - it IS Big Business that provides the majority of the jobs to the employable, after all.

Sep 01, 2018
Having been a Senior Engineer in Technical Services for Pacific Gas & Electric, I DO know where my power comes from. Ain't no coal or oil used, mostly gas, wind, hydro, some geothermal, some nukes on their way out, PV- both commercial and residential, and small amounts of other sources.

Is yours from polluting sources?


I travel a lot - therefore wherever I happen to be at the time, the energy source is what it is for that particular time and place.
When winter arrives in the northern climes, I think that very few Americans and Canadians will care so much what the source of their electricity happens to be when the temps are cold enough to freeze their noses when they go outdoors.
Gas is a GHG; hydro is fine while the water flows, but when it turns to ice and river flow is sluggish, they will have to resort to a GHG; geothermal requires magma, as in Iceland; nuclear fission is crazy dangerous and where do you ship the spent fuel to?
PV is only good while there is sun

Sep 01, 2018
IF the time ever comes that a whole city may be powered by PV or windmills or any of the others you mentioned, then the GHG use will possibly be eliminated. But until the arrival of such a time - promises, promises.

Sep 02, 2018
The Greens came from the communist party. And are now funded by the Progressives. The communists and progressives are all of one type, tyrannical.

Nothing they say can be trusted. Everything they say is parsed.

The planet has been both warmer and colder and that, within historical times. 1000 years ago Vikings had been raising barley, wheat and cattle on Greenland for 200 years. They would continue until the start of the Little Ice Age in 1250 Common Era. Try that today. Too cold, true believer. These are facts than do rely on climate models that fail to model reality, either as it was or as it will be.

Speaking of vegetation change? 2 million years ago the Amazon did not exist. No one died from lack of Amazon.

Sep 02, 2018
nothing anyone here says or does will halt the eventual termination of the species. wrap it in as much verbiage as you desire, 'splain it in endless numerical trivia or perceptual icons that looks like something profitable. sad to say, but we're all going the way of the dodo, carrier pidgeon and others. maybe some fun before it all happens, say throw a few virgins into a fiery volcano, bury some terra cotta warriors for future enticement or even create some snappy upper atmosphere godlike idea to keep people dazzled and supplicated. oh wait, heres a good one, lets leap this species out to another organic planet, take along enough carryon supplies to establish another foothold while the new digs adapts to our needs!

carry on all you fearless blobs of dna, the solar powerhouse is cooking up your last supper and it isnt what you expect....

Sep 02, 2018
carry on all you fearless blobs of dna, the solar powerhouse is cooking up your last supper and it isnt what you expect....


Only ignorants like yourself have anything to fear. The rest of us will be just fine!
Thank you.


Sep 02, 2018
There have ALWAYS been extinctions AND brutality. This is what life IS.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit

So it is OK for us to purposely cause extinctions and brutality? With your above 'logic', its also OK to commit murder because we all one day die anyway!
Sorry! Don't agree with your logic! I choose to do everything I can with my very limited humble powers to minimize, NOT maximize, brutality. And I recommend the whole of humanity does the same.
Just because brutality is natural doesn't mean it is good and that we should seek more of it. RABIES is natural; so rabies is good? -your logic.

Sep 02, 2018
young F code must be one of those Russians. I'll try to respond to his fecal regurgitations in language he will actually understand. Code, you are a worthless brain dead dumb fuck who knows nothing but the stinking filthy shit you eat constantly. I am happy that you live in Russia, where I am most certain you enjoy your hell that you prefer living in. If you lived a little closer to intelligent folks, your personal hell would be far shorter. Your obvious begging to be put out of your misery is laughable.

You will now join the other shit eaters on my ignore list. I am certain you will all get along famously, since everyone shares the same terrible stench.

Sep 02, 2018
I don't see that there is much of a problem. This is EVOLUTION AT WORK. Adaptation due to changes in environment.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit

That IS a problem; "EVOLUTION AT WORK" in this case comes with extinctions and brutality. Just because something is 'natural' (such as evolution) doesn't mean it is good. RABIES is also natural!
+ you can argue this by definition isn't 'natural' anyway because WE humans are causing it.

Climate is ALWAYS CHANGING. ....
but not usually as fast as it has been recently thus making it more harmful + We are causing the most recent change and just because climate naturally changes doesn't mean we should change it for the worse. Using your same logic, it's OK to kill someone because death normally naturally occurs anyway.
says humy

I have NEVER said that it's OK to kill someone, but it is your eugenics acolytes that believe it is OK to kill innocent babies who are past the embryonic stage.

Sep 02, 2018
-CONTINUED-
The brutality of the wholesale slaughter of innocent babies is also a part of the AGW anthem of not only cutting back on GHGs, but also to eliminate a great portion of the human populations who are said to be the CAUSE of AGW. Eugenics and AGW go hand-in-hand and can never be separated. Thus it is OK to murder children and babies to avoid further deterioration of the Earth environment, as well as to feel morally superior while you have blood on your hands.

Sep 02, 2018
Zzzzzzzz (who is also known as theghostofotto1923) has been reported for Spam, Offensive and Inappropriate and abusive language - and has offered nothing of value wrt the topic.

Sep 02, 2018
nothing anyone here says or does will halt the eventual termination of the species. wrap it in as much verbiage as you desire, 'splain it in endless numerical trivia or perceptual icons that looks like something profitable. sad to say, but we're all going the way of the dodo, carrier pidgeon and others. maybe some fun before it all happens, say throw a few virgins into a fiery volcano, bury some terra cotta warriors for future enticement or even create some snappy upper atmosphere godlike idea to keep people dazzled and supplicated. oh wait, heres a good one, lets leap this species out to another organic planet, take along enough carryon supplies to establish another foothold while the new digs adapts to our needs!

carry on all you fearless blobs of dna, the solar powerhouse is cooking up your last supper and it isnt what you expect....
says hapticz

This hapticz is possibly just a sock puppet of theghostofotto1923 who is a hater of humans. Read otto's past comments.

Sep 02, 2018
The Greens came from the communist party. And are now funded by the Progressives. The communists and progressives are all of one type, tyrannical.

Nothing they say can be trusted. Everything they say is parsed.

The planet has been both warmer and colder and that, within historical times. 1000 years ago Vikings had been raising barley, wheat and cattle on Greenland for 200 years. They would continue until the start of the Little Ice Age in 1250 Common Era. Try that today. Too cold, true believer. These are facts than do rely on climate models that fail to model reality, either as it was or as it will be.

Speaking of vegetation change? 2 million years ago the Amazon did not exist. No one died from lack of Amazon.
says Shootist

Predictably, the American Communist Party is working to overthrow the Laws of the US Constitution, having indoctrinated continuously American children who have been, and are, growing up to become the haters of American values.
-CONTD-


Sep 02, 2018
"growing up to become the haters of American values.

Are those like the Family Values we saw in the serial adulterers, the perverts, the prostitute-dependent, those who look for love in public toilet stalls?

Those American Values?

Sep 02, 2018
-CONTINUED-

@Shootist
The AGW anthem has also become a part of the Communist/Socialist/Marxist mantra where the elimination of Free Capitalism and materialism is a primary step to relieve working Americans of their hard-earned wages, so that when Americans are sufficiently impoverished, they will come to respect and look upon Communism and its leaders as the saviours of the dashed hopes and dreams of the American worker/citizen.
LOL It is all so predictable and is predicated on the premise that humans are stupid. who love and admire stupidity, barely hiding their anxiety as to the next installment of their favorite TV program(s). Overweight and obese men and women glued to their TV screens - not very aware of the latest events in the world and not caring one whit, as long as they have the means to stuff their mouths and drink their beer and soda.
That is what the Communists believe Americans truly are. All, for the most part, untrue of course. But Communists are like that.

Sep 02, 2018
@gkam
Your comment was not worthy of a reply, but I will try to steer you in the right direction anyway.

What you have described as "family values" have nothing to do with family OR values, but only resides in your wild imagination, whereby your mind seems to be titillated at the thoughts of perversions, adultery, prostitutes and homosexuality. Perhaps you are experienced in these activities?
I would suggest that you find a good psychoanalyst to see WHY you tend to equate the values inherent in good families as something evil and sordid, and categorising American families in the same vein as prostitutes, gayishness, adulterers and perverts. Perhaps your mind is infected by a demonic force that is enticing you to think of American family life in such a decidedly vicious way.

Sep 02, 2018
Zzz: you're a filthy mouthed baby, an arrogant and stupid, loser.

Sep 02, 2018
"I would suggest that you find a good psychoanalyst"

And I would suggest to you a historian.

Sep 02, 2018
I read American history, including that of the seamy side of what has transpired since the founding of the 13 colonies. The Italian Mafia and their underworld activities; the Irish draft riots during the Civil War; the American Communist Party's plans to take over the American political system in the 1920s and 30s; the Freedom Marches of the 1960s; the Southern Democrats' fight to preserve segregation in the South prior to 1968; the more current tearing down of Confederate statues; the Black-on-Black shootings in Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, and other majority Black cities that are Democrat-led; the Obama years that inspired so many businesses to flee overseas to escape the high taxes and business-killing regulations that were instituted by the Obama administration; and the list goes on and on.
I keep myself well informed.

Sep 02, 2018
Capitalism and greed are killing the Earth.

Sep 02, 2018
Capitalism and greed are killing the Earth.
says gkam

In that case, kindly send me a cashier's check for the amount that you have in your checking and savings accounts, and any pocket change. Oh, on second thought, skip the pocket change. If you don't wish to do this, then it can only mean that YOU are greedy and don't want to share your capitalist wealth with others.

Sep 02, 2018
No, it just means I do not want to share it with the selfish.

Sep 02, 2018
No, it just means I do not want to share it with the selfish.


Of course you would think that everyone else is selfish. There is a big difference between being selfish and being greedy.
YOU are greedy because you don't want to share your capital with me (or anyone else). And yet, you claim that it is greed and capital that is killing the Earth. Since YOU are greedy and won't share your capital, then it is YOU that is destroying the Earth.
While I have to be "selfish" to preserve self, and to be able to share some of my capital with others who are less fortunate.
I am certain that you don't understand the concept of Capitalism and are just talking BS just to have something to say.

Sep 03, 2018
"Capitalism and greed are killing the Earth." -- No they aren't. Greed always hurt people, but capitalism continues to get a bad rap. Capitalism (with logical limits => min wage, anti-trust laws) has made the world richer and better than anything in history.

Things are better for all people now than ever before in history.

Don't be angry and ignorant and think things are bad because of capitalism.

Sep 03, 2018
I agree with much of it, but we cannot keep on reducing those limits, which have failed us in the past, and are doing so now, with the popularity of ignorance and the concept that the ideas of a televangelist are science, not emotional manipulation, llke Trickle-down, SDI, of "WMD!".

It sounds like you are more rational than first appearing. I suggest you now go and look at the graphs from the professional scientists here:
http://www.ipcc.c...ar5/wg1/
These are not wild guesses, they are original data with extrapolation. You do not have to read the report, just look at the graphs, which may explain it.

When did you start do coding? I was National employee #7476, (1972), and by now that number probably has two more digits.

Sep 03, 2018
I agree with much of it,...


Since you have no clue of science your opinion is pretty much meaningless!

Sep 03, 2018
Capitalism and greed are killing the Earth.

It is the ignorance and stupidity of people like you that are the only real threat!

Sep 03, 2018
The vegetation includes the those tiny bags of chloroplast which can convert light to carbohydrates. They feed the plankton and the rest of the food chain, the one upon which we depend.

They also make over half of our Oxygen.

Sep 03, 2018
The vegetation includes the those tiny bags of chloroplast which can convert light to carbohydrates. They feed the plankton and the rest of the food chain, the one upon which we depend.

They also make over half of our Oxygen.

That is right! They feed on CO2 and the more CO2, the more they feed and the feedback just passes it down the line. The more CO2 we can add, the better the planet can sustain us. You fools starve the ecosystem and then bitch because you think there isn't enough to go around. I mean 'Jesus', If you knew any Physics, you would know that there is no such thing as a GHG, so why would we try to throttle CO2 production? Of course the vegetation will change! Dahhhh! These idiots have no clue of what or how, they will change. I don't care who they are, they can keep their, "Crystal Balls", no one can predict the future!!!! They should crawl back under the rock...

Sep 03, 2018
Look up the acidification of the oceans. Let's discuss it.

Sep 03, 2018
Look up the acidification of the oceans. Let's discuss it.

Look up GHG, then we might have something to discuss.

Sep 03, 2018
I understand greenhouse gases, why don't you?

Go to school and take some classes in this field.

Sep 03, 2018
@rodkeh says the dumbest thing I've read so far. He should get an award for climate denier turd.
If you knew any Physics, you would know that there is no such thing as a GHG
. Poor @rodkeh knows the abbreviation for Green House Gas (GHG) but claims there is no such thing. Apparently, he's never Googled it. https://www.cours...cs-SvfZD

That link is one of the better ones. But what it demonstrates is what a complete dumb ass @rodkeh is. It says a lot about any scientific knowledge or even humanity this person has or carries in his heart. Either you were joking @rodken or you have the mental abilities of a SNAIL!

Sep 03, 2018
Oh, for any of the other dim bulb climate deniers of the goon squad, you had better have a good excuse for yourself to not see the coming global warming disaster that's upon us. If you can't see all of the signals the environment is showing you, your either blind or you're so hateful of the people that are telling you the truth, that truth is a lie.

Personally, I think all of these sicko climate denier goons are the later. They lack any concern for the planet or there place in it. So sad. So Sad.

Sep 03, 2018
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Sep 03, 2018
I understand greenhouse gases, why don't you?

Go to school and take some classes in this field.

I went to school, unlike you who are a graduate of Google.
Get a real education and you won't have to worry about irrelevant nonsense like ocean acidification.

Sep 03, 2018
Either you were joking @rodken or you have the mental abilities of a SNAIL!


Get an education! Google doesn't count.

Sep 03, 2018
Oh, for any of the other dim bulb climate deniers of the goon squad, you had better have a good excuse for yourself to not see the coming global warming disaster that's upon us. If you can't see all of the signals the environment is showing you, your either blind or you're so hateful of the people that are telling you the truth, that truth is a lie.

Personally, I think all of these sicko climate denier goons are the later. They lack any concern for the planet or there place in it. So sad. So Sad.

Spoken as a truly uneducated and ignorant person. You have nothing of any value to contribute! What an idiot!

Sep 03, 2018
So @Oodken mighty defender of stupid says;
Spoken as a truly uneducated and ignorant person. You have nothing of any value to contribute! What an idiot!
Apparently, I'm not the one that can't figure out how to use google. What an idiot!

Sep 03, 2018
P.S. Do you know where the 97% of scientists agree number came from? From a research group who scanned the web looking for academic climate articles, read them, and said Yes for any that "seemed" to support GW. By the way,100% of scientists agree that integration by parts calculus works.


well, no.
First, there was a poll, but it was an online self selected poll, so it was really useless.

then came the abstracts study. But really, if 98% or so of peer reviewed papers support AGW, then it can be considered the *best* theory *so far*.
as for the rest, AGW is not some hoax or communist plot. If you think it is, you are anti-science and have no critical thinking skills.

Is it real? the answer is, probably. But even if it isn't, the proposed solutions are both preferable and better than maintaining a coal energy economy. They'd yield more freedom, fewer deaths, and a cleaner world.


Sep 03, 2018
So @Oodken mighty defender of stupid says;
Spoken as a truly uneducated and ignorant person. You have nothing of any value to contribute! What an idiot!
Apparently, I'm not the one that can't figure out how to use google. What an idiot!

Absolutely Not! You Are a true "Google-Head" and you're just as bright as your twin brother "Bobble-Head".

Sep 04, 2018
howhot3, you sound like a young dope who knows-it-all, so go hide in a cave, safe from your paranoid delusions ( caves can have power and wi-fi ). What evidence do you have of a coming disaster? Gore's movie?

Sep 04, 2018
dbc3: well yes, 97% was an online research project. NOT A POLL. Show me the poll link, else a liar.

Sep 04, 2018
dbc3: Critical thinking skills? LOL, At 22 probably, you know-it-all and have accomplished nothing. Yeah, I'm going to listen to you.... not.

Miami is not underwater, it still snows. Let's hear the evidence. You have none. Critical thinking skills, heh.

Sep 04, 2018
C code, why do you call everyone else a young kid with no knowledge? I am 74, and have done more than you, including a Master of Science in this field.

I suggest you stay in your own field of do-loops, since you are unable to discuss this issue.

Sep 04, 2018
C code, why do you call everyone else a young kid with no knowledge? I am 74, and have done more than you, including a Master of Science in this field.

I suggest you stay in your own field of do-loops, since you are unable to discuss this issue.

You are a bald faced liar!

Sep 04, 2018
Age 74 means life knowledge, wisdom, I can't deny you that. But that's all the age signifies in a debate. As debaters, I know several dopey 70 year olds... lol.

Sep 04, 2018
Yeah, . . LOL.

Let's discuss the issue here, instead of trying to dodge it, shall we?
What do you think about the acidification of the oceans with respect to shell forming of the copepods?

Sep 04, 2018
Yeah, . . LOL.

Let's discuss the issue here, instead of trying to dodge it, shall we?
What do you think about the acidification of the oceans with respect to shell forming of the copepods?

You don't want to discuss the issue, you just want to derail it.
Your comments prove you don't have the education you claim, if you did you would know that no future CO2 levels can ever pose a problem for sea life. This planet has already experience all variations of CO2 that are ever likely to occur and in all the history of this planet, the oceans have always thrived more than land. To suggest that some speculation based on hearsay, is of any concern in the real world, is stupid!

Sep 04, 2018
Did you actually look it up after your silly rant?

I suggest you do.

Sep 04, 2018
Why would anyone bother with baseless speculations? Or are saying that the oceans today are excessively or abnormally acidic?

Sep 04, 2018
And by the way, I'm 69 years old and you Old Geezers, haven't got a clue, except for Old_C, he seem to have his head screwed on the right way round. One would suspect a real education, based on his understanding of science, in general.

Maybe you would enjoy a real debate based on actual science, not someone else's opinions? What do you think OC..?

Sep 04, 2018
No one wants pollution gkam. Right rodkeh!

Sep 04, 2018
As I said, I have more than a clue, I have a Master of Science, 1982.

Sep 04, 2018
Then why is it, that you don't know the definition of the GHE theory.

Sep 04, 2018
Pollution is the reason I originally became interested in the GHE. At first I was all on board and I thought, that makes sense. Until I started to analyze the evidence.

Sep 04, 2018
I think I will believe the analyses performed by professional scientists over that of an internet personality.

Sep 04, 2018
P.S. Do you know where the 97% of scientists agree number came from? From a research group who scanned the web looking for academic climate articles, read them, and said Yes for any that "seemed" to support GW. By the way,100% of scientists agree that integration by parts calculus works. And 100% of scientists agree little g is 32 ft/sec/sec. I'll listen to the number 100% guys.

This is a silly comparison. No one attacks g or calculus on political or religious grounds. To do an honest comparison, you'd have to look for another scientific theory that is extremely well supported by science and data and opposed on political and religious grounds. Something like evolution. Which, as I recall, is only supported by 97% of scientists.

So I take it you don't accept evolution either?

Sep 05, 2018
dbc3: well yes, 97% was an online research project. NOT A POLL. Show me the poll link, else a liar.


I'm not gonna hunt down a decade old poll when I don't think the poll is any use anyway. My point stands, the study of abstracts is strong evidence for there being what can loosely be called a consensus on the issue.

Miami is not underwater, it still snows. Let's hear the evidence. You have none. Critical thinking skills, heh.


There's plenty of evidence for AGW. But I wasn't saying people who don't believe in AGW lack critical thinking skills.
I'm saying the deniers who think it's a hoax lack critical thinking skills.
This is clear- they've essentially convinced themselves most of the researchers in the field, many if not most of other scientists, the entire worldwide press, and virtually every single government are in on some massive conspiracy to fool us into thinking a problem exists that doesn't, all for nefarious purposes they can't quite name.

Sep 05, 2018
I think I will believe the analyses performed by professional scientists over that of an internet personality.

So there we have it, the blatant admission that you lack the education to be able to think for yourself. You have to rely on others to do your thinking for you, so it all comes down, not to what you know but who you believe. That is not science, that is religion and you are a fraud.
I would never council anyone to believe me. My opinion is just as worthless as everyone else's. The only thing of any value is the data and science that explain it.

Sep 05, 2018
I think I will believe the analyses performed by professional scientists over that of an internet personality.

So there we have it, the blatant admission that you lack the education to be able to think for yourself.
rodkeh

He just said; "I have a Master of Science".
+ believing the analyses by professional scientists over those that are not and have opinions contrary to those scientists is perfectly valid and the right thing to do.
If what you mean by "able to think for yourself" in this context is to form and use one's own ignorant opinion by ignoring the scientific facts and the opinions of scientists that are better informed than you then that shouldn't be called "able to think for yourself" (like you did) but rather "able to delude oneself". "able to think for yourself" should NOT include deluding oneself nor forming an opinion based on ignorance and ignoring information from other people but rather should only include thinking rationally.

Sep 05, 2018
I can see how one of my above statements might be misinterpreted.
change
"+ believing the analyses by professional scientists over those that are not and have opinions contrary to those scientists is perfectly valid and the right thing to do."
to
"+ believing the analyses by professional scientists over those that are not professional scientists is perfectly valid and generally the right thing to do."

Sep 05, 2018
ding oneself nor forming an opinion based on ignorance and ignoring information from other people but rather should only include thinking rationally.

So English is a second language for you?

Sep 05, 2018
So English is a second language for you?
rodkeh

No. Your point?

Sep 05, 2018
rodkeh cannot debate any issues,he can only make personal attacks.

Conservatibve science.

Sep 05, 2018
So English is a second language for you?
rodkeh

No. Your point?

You are obviously another ignorant Yank.

Sep 05, 2018
rodkeh cannot debate any issues,he can only make personal attacks.

Conservatibve science.

More insightful wisdom from the ignorant and uneducated!

Sep 05, 2018
So English is a second language for you?
rodkeh

No. Your point?

So you are just naturally ignorant and proud of it. You Yanks are such a joke!

Sep 05, 2018
The issue here is AGW and its effects on vegetation, you know, the stuff we eat and which makes our Oxygen to breathe.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, . . . . Maybe you don't, . . .

Sep 05, 2018
Since Physics proves there is no such thing as AGW, there is no issue!

Sep 05, 2018
Since Physics proves there is no such thing as AGW, there is no issue!
rodkeh

Basic physics says CO2 should cause warming and the evidence confirms this.

Sep 05, 2018
Since Physics proves there is no such thing as AGW, there is no issue!
rodkeh

Basic physics says CO2 should cause warming and the evidence confirms this.

If CO2 were abundant enough, if it represented 10% of the atmosphere, it might have a slight affect on weather but it has nothing to do with climate, the Physics proves it! There is no evidence to support AGW, just a lot of unrelated facts that are meaningless in the real world.

Sep 06, 2018
Well, there's no reason to believe that you understand anything about global warming. If you can't figure out the concept of a greenhouse gas how can you understand AGW? Physics is very precise in its mathematical descriptions of reality, for example, the CO2 molecule will only resonate at certain frequencies when vibrated on the horizontal or vertical or tri-axial planes. So the question is do you understand how a greenhouse gas works? As a follow-up question do you understand how much CO2 is being dumped into the atmosphere on a yearly basis?

It's the answers to those very specific questions that allows science to understand the gravity of global warming's impact on the planet. To deny otherwise implies a certain amount of ignorance on your part.

Sep 06, 2018
So English is a second language for you?
rodkeh

No. Your point?

You are obviously another ignorant Yank.
rodkeh

So when you loose the argument, you respond with pure personal insults? Not even the pretence of a counterargument?

P.S. I am not American but English; so it is you who is ignorant for thinking I was American (and ignorant about other things including some pretty basic physics).

Sep 06, 2018
So English is a second language for you?
rodkeh

No. Your point?

You are obviously another ignorant Yank.
rodkeh

So when you loose the argument, you respond with pure personal insults? Not even the pretence of a counterargument?

P.S. I am not American but English; so it is you who is ignorant for thinking I was American (and ignorant about other things including some pretty basic physics).

You are proof positive that Americans are not the only uneducated and ignorant people! You have no clue about Physics!

Sep 06, 2018
Well, there's no reason to believe that you understand anything about global warming. If you can't figure out the concept of a greenhouse gas how can you understand AGW? Physics is very precise in its mathematical descriptions of reality, for example, the CO2 molecule will only resonate at certain frequencies when vibrated on the horizontal or vertical or tri-axial planes. So the question is do you understand how a greenhouse gas works? As a follow-up question do you understand how much CO2 is being dumped into the atmosphere on a yearly basis?

It's the answers to those very specific questions that allows science to understand the gravity of global warming's impact on the planet. To deny otherwise implies a certain amount of ignorance on your part.

You are the idiot that can't define a GHG!
I don't have to define a GHG, John Tyndall the author of the theory did that but idiots like you have no idea of what it is. You are uneducated fools.

Sep 06, 2018
I think your fellow there predates greenhouse gases in the theory behind global warming by about a hundred years. Sorry to say but I think you're barking up the wrong tree citing this fellow as an authority on greenhouse gases. A 19th century scientist like your guy, as good of a scientist as he may have been, did not have the tools like satellites, rockets, airplanes, and the other computer and data acquisition instrument and that we use for looking at the atmosphere in very high detail.
So there is that problem with your argument.

The other concern with greenhouse gases because we understand them so well it becomes plainly obvious that there is something wrong with the people that refuse to recognize the absolute scientific facts in their arguments. It's a big dodge from the truth.

Sep 07, 2018
I think your fellow there predates greenhouse gases in the theory behind global warming by about a hundred years. Sorry to say but I think you're barking up the wrong tree citing this fellow as an authority on greenhouse gases. A 19th century scientist like your guy, as good of a scientist as he may have been, did not have the tools like satellites, rockets, airplanes, and the other computer and data acquisition instrument and that we use for looking at the atmosphere in very high detail.
So there is that problem with your argument.

The other concern with greenhouse gases because we understand them so well it becomes plainly obvious that there is something wrong with the people that refuse to recognize the absolute scientific facts in their arguments. It's a big dodge from the truth.

What nonsense! Get an education!

Sep 07, 2018
I have an education, and it is this field. You are wrong, and can only scream across the playground instead of debating the issue.

Sep 07, 2018
I have an education, and it is this field. You are wrong, and can only scream across the playground instead of debating the issue.

You are an American, you can't get an education and you have no idea of what constitutes a debate. You are an uneducated Yank!

Sep 07, 2018
I think your fellow there predates greenhouse gases in the theory behind global warming by about a


Typical of an uneducated Yank, you think the Laws of Physics change over time. The Laws of Physics are the same today as they were a hundred years ago but then you know nothing of the Laws of Physics, you're an idiot!

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