Study finds people willing to pay more for new biofuels

When it comes to second generation biofuels, Washington State University research shows that consumers are willing to pay a premium of approximately 11 percent over conventional fuel.

"We were surprised the premium was that significant," said Jill McCluskey, WSU professor in the School of Economic Sciences. "We wanted to study people in different regions of the country, to make sure we weren't just getting a local result, and people in all three cities we studied said they would pay more for these fuels."

The paper, "Consumer Preferences for Second-Generation Bioethanol," was published in November in the journal Energy Economics.

First generation biofuels use potential food sources, like corn, which can cause the price of food to rise. Second generation biofuels, on the other hand, are made from sustainable biological non-food sources. Recently, Alaska Airlines flew a plane from Seattle to Washington, D.C., fueled by second generation biofuel made from wood scraps.

McCluskey's study was part of a grant from the National Science Foundation headed by Shulin Chen, WSU professor in the Department of Biological Systems Engineering. Chen, who researches new biofuels, asked McCluskey to find out whether people would buy second generation biofuels.

"This new biofuel doesn't exist commercially yet, so we have to do these studies to make sure there's a potential market for it," McCluskey said. "And this shows there clearly is a market."

McCluskey and her co-author, recent WSU Ph.D. graduate Tongzhe Li, conducted surveys in Portland, Ore., Minneapolis and Boston. In Portland, the average amount participants would pay for second generation biofuel over conventional fuel was 17 percent, while in Minneapolis and Boston the averages were 9 percent and 8 percent, respectively.

"People in the survey were concerned that the new fuel may put their car at risk, by not running the same as conventional fuel," she said. "But they also saw the added benefit to the environment."

The researchers asked participants if they would be willing to pay a certain amount for the product. If they said no, researchers offered a discount and asked if participants would pay that amount. However, if respondents said yes, researchers asked if they would be willing to pay a little more for the product.

Before they were surveyed, half of the participants were given information about second biofuels. Those were more willing to pay a greater premium, which suggests that marketing the benefits of the new biofuels would improve consumers' perceptions, McCluskey said.


Explore further

Scientists make significant step forward in biofuels quest

More information: Tongzhe Li et al, Consumer preferences for second-generation bioethanol, Energy Economics (2017). DOI: 10.1016/j.eneco.2016.10.023
Citation: Study finds people willing to pay more for new biofuels (2016, December 8) retrieved 25 August 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2016-12-people-biofuels.html
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Dec 08, 2016
The question is: Where does the extra cost go?
If its an early adopter premium buying future cost saving infrastructure that's great.
Or if the extra is calculated as justifiable to save planetary CO2 that should be great too.
Otherwise the cost goes to more people, who eventually spend it on goods costing more energy, or into more energy intensive processes of production.
Eventually all costs go to energy expenditure by someone somewhere down the chain to raw materials production. (Except the bit saved in a sock under someone's bed)
Evens for wind farms and hydro-dams production and installation costs end up as energy spending via employee spending or production processes. Though hopefully these last two examples do produce more energy than they cost.
Costly solar panels and bio-fuel are more questionable on cost benefit analysis; and are usually judged by subsidies or more intangible benefits.

Dec 08, 2016
If you send mor eon biofuels then you spend less on something else.
Of course this assumes your fuel consumption stays constant, which is doubtful. If you spend more on fuel then that's an incentive to buy more fuel efficient cars (or to reduce your overal fuel consumption by driving less)

But lots of people have no problem spending a little more on bio foods (I guess in the US this is termed 'organic'), so I'm not overly surprised that people would be willing to spend a little more on bio fuels.

Costly solar panels

I dunno. Solar panels haven't been 'costly' since round about the last millenium.

Dec 08, 2016
Solar is costly to install. (At least domestically) I'll be doing well to recover my outlay before the panels and the inverter need replacing even with the govt subsidies.

However: My primary point was that almost all of the cost of anything and everything you buy eventually ends up as energy expenditure by someone somewhere down the supply chains. And where that is fossil energy usage it is counter productive expenditure.

Dec 09, 2016
" I'll be doing well to recover my outlay before the panels and the inverter need replacing even with the govt subsidies."
---------------------------------------

Make your own inverter? What kind of system do you have?

Ours is paying off handsomely.

Dec 12, 2016
Solar is costly to install. (At least domestically) I'll be doing well to recover my outlay before the panels and the inverter need replacing even with the govt subsidies

Really? The stuff we put on the roof of my dad's home (which was roughly 20 years ago when this type of installation was still expensive) paid of for itself within 7 years - and it's still going strong without any need for replacements.
(My dad's a bit of an Excel nut, so he keeps track of all the power, efficiency and whatnot. Even allowing for yearly variability in sunshine it seems the panels are still operate at way above 90% of the power output when new after all this time. Without ever being serviced or even cleaned)

Dec 12, 2016
Wait until he gets an EV. He will go nuts. He will probably add panels to cover the need, but then will have house power and auto fuel as well.

We save more with our panels with the car than we do for the house. $3,000 this first year for both. Being on a fixed income, it is a real stress-reliever. And we get to live cleanly.

Dec 12, 2016
Solar is costly to install. (At least domestically)
@EyeNStein
Yes and no - this really depends on if you're buying new and using contractors to install
should you do it yourself then the cost is considerably lower

also note: you don't necessarily need new panels either - a good source of older panels is marina's and boatyards where people who have large disposable incomes upgrade their systems and sell off or even throw away perfectly good panels

.

.

The stuff we put on the roof of my dad's home (which was roughly 20 years ago when this type of installation was still expensive) paid of for itself within 7 years
@AA_P
faster here: we did everything ourselves and picked up perfectly good panels for the cost of driving to a marina

the highest cost we had was the purchase of inverters, switches and wiring (all new)

Dec 12, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
But lots of people have no problem spending a little more on bio foods (I guess in the US this is termed 'organic')...
i think this is more about perception than anything else, really

they think they're being helpful or "green" (whatever)

in the US, i noticed that people aren't as willing to read the fine print so much... this is evident in products with labels like: organic, healthy, low fat, low sodium, green (anything), any Vitamin or other supplements

most people just assume that, due to the truth in advert requirements, then the claims are true

very few people actually do any work or research to insure the facts are correct

and when something complicated is in the mix (like health, medicine, science, math, etc) then it is even worse - instead of learning about how [x] affects [y] they simply choose based upon claims, random "authority" or peer anecdote


Dec 12, 2016
"very few people actually do any work or research to insure the facts are correct"
------------------------------------------
Not here. In the cluster of our five houses, each with an average of 5 kW installed, we each did our own investigations, going through technologies financing and installers, and all chose different ways of doing it with different companies.

Dec 16, 2016
Otherwise the cost goes to more people, who eventually spend it on goods costing more energy


There's no "otherwise". That ends up happening anyways regardless of why the extra cost, or where the money is spent, because the market is interconnected and the money goes around. The only way to avoid spending more energy is by inflation - i.e. paying the extra cost by printing more money.

The stuff we put on the roof of my dad's home (which was roughly 20 years ago when this type of installation was still expensive) paid of for itself within 7 years


Of course it did. The feed-in subsidies back in the day were over 50 cents a kWh. People installed two meters to avoid using their own solar power.

The point was to kick up a solar panel industry in Germany by paying early adopters ridiculous subsidies, because the money would be returning to the taxpayers and create new jobs - but then the market and the jobs slipped away to China.


Dec 16, 2016
Today the feed-in subsidy for rooftop solar in Germany is somewhat lower than the retail price of electricity including the EEG surcharge (renewable tax), so people are encouraged to use their own solar power first and then feed it to the grid.

Result? New installations of solar panels crashed down hard:

https://en.wikipe...dded.png

From 7,500 MW/year to around 1,300 MW/year after the subsidies were reduced. No subsidies, no solar market. If the owners had to sell for the real going market rate to feed their power into the grid, they'd be making close to zero cents per kWh especially in the summertime when there's an oversupply, and the whole thing just wouldn't make any financial sense. There would be no payback.

Dec 16, 2016
"so people are encouraged to use their own solar power first and then feed it to the grid. "
-----------------------------------

You really DON'T know how electricity works. Didn't you think it was just generated and wasted if we did not use it? Is water wasted when you do not turn it on?

The "payback" is the generation of my power. Cleanly, effectively and cheaply, and almost forever. I just paid for all my power use for the next three decades or so.

Why do you insist on making money for everything you do?

Dec 16, 2016
You really DON'T know how electricity works. Didn't you think it was just generated and wasted if we did not use it? Is water wasted when you do not turn it on?


Do you believe a solar panel collects and retains sunlight when you're not using it?

The panel has a limited lifespan due to diffusion and corrosion, and if you're not drawing electricity out of it whenever available, and selling or using it to substitute purchased power, you're throwing your money away. You bought something and then you don't use it - that is waste.

The point is that when the feed-in subsidies are less than the cost of buying electricity, people are encouraged to use their own power, instead of what was going on before when the subsidy was greater than the retail cost. At 50 c/kWh people would install more panels than they could use, connect them behind a second separate kWh meter and just sell all the power out.

That loophole has now been closed.

Dec 16, 2016
Why do you insist on making money for everything you do?


Because if you don't at least break even, you can't continue doing it. You run out of money and then you have to stop.

I just paid for all my power use for the next three decades or so.


No you didn't. First of all, you're lying about the solar panels, and secondly almost all the power you actually use even if you did have them comes from the grid - not from your solar panels.

You could also have installed an electric storage boiler for your hot water and used those imaginary solar panels of yours to provide the energy, but instead you installed a gas powered instant water heater as per your own admission.

You just "bought" yourself a good feeling and nothing else.

Dec 16, 2016
Hilarious. A diesel driver says I am not clean by generating my own electricity with PV panels.

I would not heat with electricity, it is too valuable a fuel. I do not understand how you wastrels use electricity for its heating value. That is like using a V-12 engine for its weight.

What I bought was clean automobile fuel and house electricity for decades. Clean, not like your clattering stinking Diesel.

What do you do? Tell us!

Dec 16, 2016
We went through all this before, how I produce clean power right in the same distribution circuit where it is used, at peak times, the most expensive power they need, and have an agreement with the utility to trade my peak power for what I use at night. Yeah, I am probably losing money by not selling it, but it is best for the system if we do it this way.

Selfishness must be tempered.

We had the annual settle-up last month, and it cost us less than ten bucks for a year of power and car fuel. That included meter charges and such. The car fuel was equivalent to 660 gallons of gasoline in that time.

I am doing my part. How about Eikka?

Dec 16, 2016
We need biofuels and other renewables. They are safer than getting oil from the folk who hate us.

Let's have a law that utilities and their owners, including shareholders, are responsible for anything which happens to powerplants. They are in it for the benefits, and they should carry the risk, the REAL risk of a dangerous incident.


Dec 16, 2016
Clean, not like your clattering stinking Diesel


I do not own a diesel car.

I produce clean power right in the same distribution circuit where it is used, at peak times


The peak has already shifted because there's more than enough solar power on the Californian grid.

and have an agreement with the utility to trade my peak power for what I use at night


Forced by the Obama energy act of 2009. Without the laws that mandate net metering, the utility wouldn't take any more solar power because they have trouble using it : the sun going down creates a big swing in power demand in the late afternoon and requires more expensive and less efficient load following powerplants to deal with.
I am doing my part. How about Eikka?

You're causing your share of trouble alright. If you really were doing your part, you'd throw out your gas water heater and bought renewable electricity off the grid instead - but gas is cheaper and you're a hypocrite liar.

Dec 16, 2016
Yeah, I am probably losing money by not selling it


You'd be losing money BY selling it, because there's already enough solar power on the Californian grid that there's regular oversupply. It comes and goes too fast for the other plants to react. That pushes the spot price down to zero and you'd be giving it away.

It just doesn't fit the grid:

http://www.sfgate...9331.php
California has added solar plants so quickly that the grid doesn't always have room for all of the electricity. On Tuesday, for example, grid operators had to curtail 292 megawatt hours of solar electricity, equal to 292 megawatts over the course of an hour.

As a result, the Independent System Operator is exploring the possibility of launching a unified power market that would cover most western states, so that California's solar plants and wind farms could sell their excess power to customers outside the state.

Dec 16, 2016
http://ww2.kqed.o...h-solar/
"All of a sudden you have a major cloud that comes over a solar field," Traweek says, and that causes the solar power to drop off.

"That [power] needs to come from somewhere else immediately," she says.

So grid operators have to keep the natural gas plants running in the background. If they're turned off, many take four to eight hours start up again.

California's highest demand for electricity also happens right as the sun goes down, when Californians come home from work and lights turn on. Grid operators need natural gas power plants at the ready to meet that peak and to fill the gap that's left by solar power.


Gkam, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. You're not helping, and you're not helping yourself lying about it.

Dec 16, 2016
Eikka is throwing around "liar" as if he knew what he/she was talking about. When I say "peak", I mean official "peak" as shown on my rate schedule.

When you say "lie" you are making things up out of frustration of being wrong again. Yes, I have 4.59Kw of panels and an e-Golf. Do not be so quick to follow the poor character of those who lie about it out of poor egos.

Eikka, do not join the ranks of the chronic malcontents and character assassins.

Dec 16, 2016
I produce almost exactly the same amount of electricity we use in a year for house and car. Yet Eikka has trouble with that.

Fortunately, it is emotional trouble, and is irrelevant here.

Dec 16, 2016
Well now, gkam, He isn't the only person to prove to you that peak energy usage where you live is 3.5 hours after sundown. I have done it 3 times but you run away from the links like Trump was behind them.

He probably read them and remembered them, therefore he knows you are a liar.

Dec 16, 2016
Do you folk think "peak" is one hour?

Actually, on my EV-1 schedule, my off-peak is from 07:00 to 22:00. Check it out.

For most users, peak changes with the seasons.

Dec 16, 2016
I produce almost exactly the same amount of electricity we use in a year for house and car


That's all well and good, but understand that it's not a useful way to deal with the situation.

There's neglible amount of energy storage on the grid, so what you claim you're doing is making things worse. It's making electricity more expensive and the electricity generation less efficient because they need to keep a large number of powerplants on stanby and/or low output just in wait for the sun go down. More efficient powerplants like combined cycle plants just can't function with solar power, and solar power can't operate without the backup, so you're stuck. Using the grid as your battery just doesn't work when everyone's doing it.

If you actually did care and understand what the problem is, you'd find ways to store energy and shift your loads, such as by storing it in hot water for later use, or charging an electric car in the middle of the day rather than at night.

Dec 16, 2016
No one has claimed that peak is one hour long. Our point is that, for the duration of the peak, it is dark outside, and your PV power is nonexistent.

In other words, sunset = 4:50 PM, Zero percent PV production = 4:59PM Today's numbers, PST.

85% to 100% and back down to 85% peak need is from 5:00PM to 22:00 Today's numbers, PST.

"...I produce clean power right in the same distribution circuit where it is used, at peak times..."
- gkam

You have a different numbers from what your electrical provider does. Whom shall we believe?

http://www.whatsm...ates/522 Your power provider.

I have PV myself, but I don't claim that it works after dark.

Dec 16, 2016
Our point is that, for the duration of the peak, it is dark outside, and your PV power is nonexistent.


PV output tapers down well before sundown, because most panels are fixed towards the midday sun for maximum energy output and the efficiency of the panel drops about 10-15% for every hour the sun moves off-angle from the center of the panel.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_A9iefDotrJI/TU7bVlRBP0I/AAAAAAAAAe8/lL27vUUoUbs/s1600/PV_output.jpg

Then there's increasing atmospheric absorption as the sun moves to a lower angle, and shading from trees and buildings and clouds, all of which increases dramatically well before the sun goes under the horizon.

Dec 16, 2016
" for the duration of the peak, it is dark outside, and your PV power is nonexistent."
------------------------------

Uh, . . no.

Where did you get such a silly idea? It is peak at Noon. Where is the Sun?

"You have a different numbers from what your electrical provider does. Whom shall we believe?"
------------------------------
Not you.

My utility is PG&E, and I told you the rate schedule. Look it up.

Dec 16, 2016
@ glam-Skippy Just because your (pretend) solar panes have their peak producing at noon, does not mean you are (pretending) producing at the times of peak demand. You got busted again trying to know more than you know and doubling down with smoke and mirrors.

During peak demand your solar panes are not working, not even on your neighbor's roof.

Dec 16, 2016
I went to the Estevan site, and saw he was looking at household peak, NOT System Peak, which is the REAL peak, the one meant when called "Peak".

This is what happens when we deal with stuff out of our own profession.

Dec 16, 2016
He probably read them and remembered them, therefore he knows you are a liar.


I already know he's a pathological liar because of past behaviour. There's nothing new here - any positive claim he has about himself eventually turns out to be false or exaggerated.

He made the exact same lie about the Altamont Pass wind turbines, claiming that they start up and produce power right when the demand for air conditioning kicks up during the day. So I googled documents from the 1980's which showed that they do the exact opposite. They don't pick up during the day, instead making more power at night.

Gkam is simply flat out denying reality and substituting his own, even to the point of doublethinking or turning coat one minute to the next, simply saying whatever he believes makes him look the best.

The curious bit is where he never aknowledges that nobody's buying it. That is either an incredibly dedicated troll or a truly insane person.

Dec 16, 2016
Where did you get such a silly idea? It is peak at Noon. Where is the Sun?


It is NOT peak at noon. That's what people keep telling and showing you.

he was looking at household peak, NOT System Peak


http://www.caiso....tory.pdf

California ISO Peak Load History
1998 through 2015

2015 time: 16:53


The system peak too happens well after the solar peak.

Dec 16, 2016
Gosh, Ira, you just made the same mistake as Estevan, another example of folk out of their area.

I suggest you look at system peak, instead of making such a junior error.

Eikka, you are an idiot if you cannot debate the issue. You still think electricity is "wasted". That means you never had it even in school. It is a fundamental failure to understand how it works.

You have gotten emotionally overwrought. Get a grip on your emotions and ask questions until you understand it.

Dec 16, 2016
Another graph, measured in 2014, by the US Energy Information Administration

http://www.eia.go...main.png

The CAISO net load peak happens consistently around 7-9 pm. That's full system load.

Eikka, you are an idiot if you cannot debate the issue. You still think electricity is "wasted". That means you never had it even in school. It is a fundamental failure to understand how it works


Gkam you are simply and plainly full of shit. What are you even trying to accomplish by denying reality?

Dec 16, 2016
"Peak" is a multi-hour period, not a point in time.

Please learn how electricity is sold. It is not that complicated for most folk.

Did you look up my actual rate schedule? It is the EV-1. Look at the peak time.

Dec 16, 2016
"Peak" is a multi-hour period, not a point in time.

Please learn how electricity is sold. It is not that complicated for most folk.


Tha'ts why I wrote down 7-9 PM. Do you honestly think we don't understand that?

What the heck are you trying to pull off making yourself look like an incorrigible moron. Why do you persist?

Did you look up my actual rate schedule? It is the EV-1. Look at the peak time.


I did.

http://www.pge.co...S_EV.pdf

It says "peak" is 2:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. which includes the actual 7-9 pm peak period.

Dec 16, 2016
Gkam, it also doesn't speak well of you to downvote people who disagree with you, because the score is used for filtering out posts, which means you're trying to hide whatever the other person is saying.

Everyone can see you're doing it. It looks exactly like a person who's been caught lying.

Dec 16, 2016
You still think electricity is "wasted".


I suppose it would be some "wasted" letters and time to ask you to explain that one? Are you saying that electricity can not be wasted? Ever? It is hard to tell with you sometimes.

Dec 16, 2016
Well, gosh I looked it up and you are correct. Peak has been changed.

No, I do not lie. I can be mistaken, but I do not lie. I do not understand where you folk grew up to assume people lie to you.

The reasons to put it in and the value are still high,and I still make my own power. It just happens to be the amount I need for car and house, not planned for that. Because I live in earthquake country, I will also have battery storage to augment my PV and dual-fuel generator.

Dec 16, 2016
Edited for politeness

By the way, all plans that include an electric vehicle start with E9.

You shouldn't assume the experience of others is inferior to yours. Especially when you don't know what it may be.

Dec 16, 2016
Yeah,"wasted". They think we produce it and run it through the wires and if we do not use it, it just goes to waste. They do not understand the amount of power generated is only what is demanded by the load.

Dec 16, 2016
"You shouldn't assume the experience of others is inferior to yours. Especially when you don't know what it may be."
---------------------------------

No assumption made. It was obvious.

BTW, if you want to see mine, you can at the Stalking Site of Stumpy, where he has a satellite view of my house, and the pic taken by the installers showing where on those roofs the panels lie.

Dec 16, 2016
Yeah,"wasted". They think we produce it and run it through the wires and if we do not use it, it just goes to waste. They do not understand the amount of power generated is only what is demanded by the load.


Well that was about what I was expecting. So any wasting is all at the load end, eh? Okayeei Cher, carry on with your goober slaying.

Dec 16, 2016
It's a big mystery to mechanical folk.

Dec 16, 2016
It's a big mystery to mechanical folk.


I suspect you are a big mystery to any folk.

Dec 16, 2016
No, I do not lie. I can be mistaken, but I do not lie.


You do. You constantly make up counterfactual claims and refuse evidence to the contrary - that amounts to lying. You also make up your own facts that aren't supported by any evidence in the first place - that is properly lying.

and I still make my own power


No you don't. You may make equal energy, but the power you use comes from the grid, predominantly from gas fueled powerplants.

I will also have battery storage to augment my PV and dual-fuel generator.


Like your imaginary electric car that doesn't exist according to the DMV, or the imaginary solar panels that are actually installed on your neighbor's roof?

It is very easy to provide evidence for both those claims, but you simply refuse.

They think we produce it and run it through the wires and if we do not use it, it just goes to waste.


That's not at all what people are saying. You're simply lying.

Dec 16, 2016
BTW, if you want to see mine, you can at the Stalking Site of Stumpy, where he has a satellite view of my house


That's called Google Earth - it's publicly available information. Everyone can see whether the address you claim has solar panels on the roof.

Dec 16, 2016
The Google Earth views are over a year old. We did not have the panels then, so you are incorrect. You'll have to go to Rumpy's stash of anti-Kamburoff stuff to see the pic from the installer and compare roofs.

Do it. I want to hear the scream.

Dec 17, 2016
Gkam you are simply and plainly full of shit. What are you even trying to accomplish by denying reality?
"Psychopaths view any social exchange as a "feeding opportunity," a contest or a test of wills in which there can be only one winner. Their motives are to manipulate and take, ruthlessly and without remorse. [Hare]"
No, I do not lie. I can be mistaken, but I do not lie
"A woman with a staggering record of fraud, deceit, lies, and broken promises concluded a letter to the parole board with, "I've let a lot of people down… One is only as good as her reputation and name. My word is as good as gold.""

Dec 17, 2016
I do not understand where you folk grew up to assume people lie to you
Decent Folk assume just the opposite.

"Human beings have been accustomed to assume that other human beings are - at the very least - trying to "do right" and "be good" and fair and honest. And so, very often, we do not take the time to use due diligence in order to determine if a person who has entered our life is, in fact, a "good person." And when a conflict ensues, we automatically fall into the cultural assumption that in any conflict, one side is partly right one way, and the other is partly right the other, and that we can form opinions about which side is mostly right or wrong."

"The truth - when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person look bad - especially if the innocent person is honest and admits his mistakes."

-Psychopaths discover early on how easy it is to cheat honest people. For the rest of their lives they cant resist the thrill of victimizing them.

Dec 17, 2016
Nice backpedal, gkam.
You can't read your own power bill, then have it explained to you, and you blame other people for not understanding just how wrong you were.
What a buffoon. You (alleged) electrical guys sure ain't much smart.

Why did you say your plan was Ev-1 when ALL the plans that include EVs start with E9?
Another mistake, or evidence of yet another lie?

When found wrong or in a lie, you double down on bulls***, just like Trump.

Why is Stumpys' stash anti-GK when YOU sent it to him?

Dec 17, 2016
I was hoping we would have a discussion about your PV setup you mentioned, but I see your emotions got the better of you.

How did you folk get so nasty? Does your mother know you are like this online?

My rate schedule was EV-1 when I signed up for it. EV-2 is using a separate meter.

Once again, I think you are overcome by emotion, like the others, nasty and frustrated. I'll bet it is time you started calling me your favorite names again. You kids are SO predictable, . . .

Dec 17, 2016
Nice backpedal, gkam.
You can't read your own power bill, then have it explained to you, and you blame other people for not understanding just how wrong you were
@Estevan57
the funny thing is: it's not the first time!

i tried to explain her own crap to her in the past, like here: http://phys.org/n...car.html

Why is Stumpys' stash anti-GK when YOU sent it to him?
worse - she sent it to me knowing full well that it was going to be posted publicly
AND
after i told her to redact personal info like SSN's

please note that she never actually answers questions nor validates her claims - especially when it's a false claim?

when that happens, she starts with a random OT attack, then whines about our character, then adds irrelevant information

see it above?

all because she didn't take the advice i gave her years ago to link references for her claims

ya can lead an idiot to knowledge but you can't make them think

Dec 18, 2016
Lol Stumpy, that last line...

Just out of the blue - I recently finished reading "Fighter Pilot: The Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds", and thought it was pretty good. If that's your cup of literary tea, it comes recommended.

@gkam - Dude, buffoon isn't that bad an word to be called. If ya don't like to be called on yer stupid, don't be stupid. (inspired by Ira, but without the accent)
Bye the way, sometimes I show my dad your posts for a laugh.
My dad thinks you're a REMF dipshit. Harsh words, I know, but I don't argue with a 24 year vet.

My service, you'll never know.

Dec 18, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Dec 18, 2016
I recently finished reading "Fighter Pilot: The Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds", and thought it was pretty good. If that's your cup of literary tea, it comes recommended.
@Estevan57
Hell yeah... thanks for the input
appreciate it
i like non-fiction and true stories
Bye the way, sometimes I show my dad your [liar-kam's] posts for a laugh.
My dad thinks you're a REMF dipshit. Harsh words, I know, but I don't argue with a 24 year vet.
your dad is perceptive - tell your dad i said HI
24 yrs? enlisted?
what branch?

i can't show my dad... my dad hates idiots like gkam

one thing i know - idiots like g can only talk sh*t on-line
she would never, ever, EVER make good on her threat to show up at my place
the cowards like her always talk smack when they think they're safe
that is why i sent her directions to my place - so she could make good on her threats

# of visits since then?
zero
none
nada
zilch
LMFAO

Dec 18, 2016
I think your dad is an idiot.
I am sure he will be relieved to hear that, I would be.

And I'll argue with him, if you're scared.
You never could pass on a chance to show what a moron you are, eh?

I never claimed to be a front-line troop.
You claim to be traumatized by the killing you took part in and all the comrades that was dropping like flies all around you and how you had to became a pothead to get over the nightmares of it all.

What is your silly game?
It is your game Cher. You brought silly to the table when you showed up, pull up your big boy panties and get over it. If you don't like being the object of ridicule and derision, then be somewhere different because we know in spades you can not be somebody different, eh?

Dec 18, 2016
"You claim to be traumatized by the killing you took part in and all the comrades that was dropping like flies all around you and how you had to became a pothead to get over the nightmares of it all."
-----------------------------------------

Oh, my, is that what you read somewhere? Really?

Ira, with no reference, you invent this stuff? If you had served, perhaps you would understand how it works, but you didn't . And having a Daddy who served or a friend does not cut it. You are ignorant of that world.

It's biofuels, kids, not your poor character which is the issue here.

You simply do not have the chops for discussions in a science forum, so you have to go personal attacks. Do you not understand that says more about your character than about me?

Okay, . . rant away.

Dec 18, 2016
@ Stumpy - 24 years in the Air Force. 2 "glorious" tours in Vietnam, lots of TDY and overseas posts, with the family tagging along. Gotta go...

Dec 18, 2016
Really, what did he do?

Come back! Tell us.

He called me an REMF, so what did your precious daddy do?

Yeah, I had to watch as aircraft burned with folk i knew inside. Is that funny to you?

What is wrong with you people? Are your little egos and phony names so important you take shots at real people?

Dec 18, 2016
"You claim to be traumatized by the killing you took part in and all the comrades that was dropping like flies all around you and how you had to became a pothead to get over the nightmares of it all."
-----------------------------------------

Oh, my, is that what you read somewhere?
Yeah Cher, I read him somewhere. Right here on the physorg. You post that stuffs all the time.

Really?
Yeah, really. We all been trying to explain to you for years now that all the goofy stuffs you write is preserved by the nice peoples at physorg for all the world to see how goofy you are. That is why they put in that "3-Minute-Rule-For-Couyons", so you can't come back and try to change it.

Dec 18, 2016
Where did you serve, Ira?

Since you can't discuss the topic, and seem to be absolutely fixated on me, let's hear about how you saved America by being completely selfish.

Tell us who you really are,. so we can complete the belly-laugh.


Dec 18, 2016
Where did you serve, Ira?
Right here on the physorg Cher.

Since you can't discuss the topic, and seem to be absolutely fixated on me, let's hear about how you saved America by being completely selfish.
What does that mean? What it is you are trying to say? Maybe you should spend more thinking out what you are writing.

Tell us who you really are,. so we can complete the belly-laugh.
I am Ira the Skippy from Port Fourchon in LaFourche Parish that is in the Louisiana part of the U.S.of A. You ask this so many times I am beginning to think you need learn how to use the page holder thing on your interweb thing. Either that or learn to write down a note.

Dec 18, 2016
No, you're not. You said how you have to travel hundreds of miles to go to work, on your 9,000 horsepower Diesel polluter.

Ira who?

You hide so you do not have to own up to your silly words, the adolescent attempt to become a Cajun Mark Twain.

But when you get mad, the affectation goes away and you scream in White Trash.

Now, let's get off the personal attacks, and stick with the science.

Dec 18, 2016
No, you're not.
Yeah, I am.

You said how you have to travel hundreds of miles to go to work,
So? What that got to do with anything?

Ira who?
Ira me.

You hide so you do not have to own up to your silly words, the adolescent attempt to become a Cajun Mark Twain.
I know you think that is really smart and witty Cher, but it is just goofy.

But when you get mad, the affectation goes away and you scream in White Trash.
You have not seen me mad Cher. You do not have what it takes to make me mad.

Now, let's get off the personal attacks, and stick with the science.
You can stick to anything you want to stick to Cher, it do not matter to me. But science is where you get your feelings hurt the most, are you sure you want to stick to that?

Dec 18, 2016
I want to stick to the issues, not your personal fixation on me.

Dec 18, 2016
Well gkam, since you actually ask a question. (Perhaps I may be real after all)

He enlisted in the AF to get out of his small logging town.
After tech school he qualified to repair radios and communication, and went over seas almost immediately. (Germany) When he came back (Spokane WA) he started night courses to upgrade his skills. (Cleveland Institute of Electronics) He earned more rank, and we moved a lot because of the demand for his skills. (Newfoundland, Georgia, Delaware, Guam, Philippines, Hawaii, WA, CA.)
He did a 1 year Nam tour in 1965, I believe. Received purple heart from a rocketing. He was selected to go into Avionics school while stationed in McClellan afterwards. After finishing school, he worked on both radio comm and avionics repair. While family lived in Oregon, he took another tour in Nam. 15 months, or a year, I don't remember. - During Tet offensive, which was scary. Finished career after being "offered" a trip to work in Saudi Arabia.

Dec 18, 2016
@ Stumpy - Hello sent. - Hello! sent back to you.

@gkam Serving in the armed forces doesn't make you any better than someone else.
It's who you are afterwards that is the measure of the person.
Plenty of people used it to avoid jail back in your day.

I noticed the authors of the study still picked areas that are very liberal and left leaning politically to interview.
I wonder how differently the study would be if they chose Dallas, Atlanta, and Nashville.

Dec 27, 2016
USAF cargo aircraft have been flown with biofuels already, I think.

"Avionics school while stationed in McClellan"

Avionics at McClelland? F-111?


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