Electric vehicles can meet drivers' needs enough to replace 90 percent of vehicles now on the road

August 15, 2016
2016 Nissan Leaf

Could existing electric vehicles (EVs), despite their limited driving range, bring about a meaningful reduction in the greenhouse-gas emissions that are causing global climate change? Researchers at MIT have just completed the most comprehensive study yet to address this hotly debated question, and have reached a clear conclusion: Yes, they can.

The study, which found that a wholesale replacement of conventional vehicles with electric ones is possible today and could play a significant role in meeting climate change mitigation goals, was published today in the journal Nature Energy by Jessika Trancik, the Atlantic Richfield Career Development Associate Professor in Energy Studies at MIT's Institute for Data, Systems, and Society (IDSS), along with graduate student Zachary Needell, postdoc James McNerney, and recent graduate Michael Chang SM '15.

"Roughly 90 percent of the personal vehicles on the road daily could be replaced by a low-cost electric vehicle available on the market today, even if the cars can only charge overnight," Trancik says, "which would more than meet near-term U.S. climate targets for personal vehicle travel." Overall, when accounting for the emissions today from the power plants that provide the electricity, this would lead to an approximately 30 percent reduction in emissions from transportation. Deeper emissions cuts would be realized if power plants decarbonize over time.

The team spent four years on the project, which included developing a way of integrating two huge datasets: one highly detailed set of second-by-second driving behavior based on GPS data, and another broader, more comprehensive set of national data based on travel surveys. Together, the two datasets encompass millions of trips made by drivers all around the country.

The detailed GPS data was collected by state agencies in Texas, Georgia, and California, using special data loggers installed in cars to assess statewide driving patterns. The more comprehensive, but less detailed, nationwide data came from a national household transportation survey, which studied households across the country to learn about how and where people actually do their driving. The researchers needed to understand "the distances and timing of trips, the different driving behaviors, and the ambient weather conditions," Needell says.

By working out formulas to integrate the different sets of information and thereby track one-second-resolution drive cycles, the MIT researchers were able to demonstrate that the daily energy requirements of some 90 percent of personal cars on the road in the U.S. could be met by today's EVs, with their current ranges, at an overall cost to their owners—including both purchase and operating costs—that would be no greater than that of conventional internal-combustion vehicles. The team looked at once-daily charging, at home or at work, in order to study the adoption potential given today's charging infrastructure.

What's more, such a large-scale replacement would be sufficient to meet the nation's stated near-term emissions-reduction targets for personal vehicles' share of the transportation sector—a sector that accounts for about a third of the nation's overall greenhouse gas emissions, with a majority of emissions from privately owned, light-duty vehicles.

While EVs have many devotees, they also have a large number of critics, who cite range anxiety as a barrier to transportation electrification. "This is an issue where common sense can lead to strongly opposing views," Trancik says. "Many seem to feel strongly that the potential is small, and the rest are convinced that is it large."

"Developing the concepts and mathematical models required for a testable, quantitative analysis is helpful in these situations, where so much is at stake," she adds.

Those who feel the potential is small cite the premium prices of many EVs available today, such as the highly rated but expensive Tesla models, and the still-limited distance that lower-cost EVs can drive on a single charge, compared to the range of a gasoline car on one tank of gas. The lack of available charging infrastructure in many places, and the much greater amount of time required to recharge a car compared to simply filling a gas tank have also been cited as drawbacks.

But the team found that the vast majority of cars on the road consume no more energy in a day than the battery energy capacity in affordable EVs available today. These numbers represent a scenario in which people would do most of their recharging overnight at home, or during the day at work, so for such trips the lack of infrastructure was not really a concern. Vehicles such as the Ford Focus Electric or the Nissan Leaf—whose sticker prices are still higher than those of conventional cars, but whose overall lifetime costs end up being comparable because of lower maintenance and operating costs—would be adequate to meet the needs of the vast majority of U.S. drivers.

The study cautions that for EV ownership to rise to high levels, the needs of drivers have to be met on all days. For days on which energy consumption is higher, such as for vacations, or days when an intensive need for heating or cooling would sharply curb the EV's distance range, driving needs could be met by using a different car (in a two-car home), or by renting, or using a car-sharing service.

The study highlights the important role that car sharing of internal combustion engine vehicles could play in driving electrification. Car sharing should be very convenient for this to work, Trancik says, and requires further business model innovation. Additionally, the days on which alternatives are needed should be known to drivers in advance —information that the team's model "TripEnergy" is able to provide.

Even as batteries improve, there will continue to be a small number of high-energy days that exceed the range provided by . For these days, other powertrain technologies will likely be needed. The study helps policy-makers to quantify the "returns" to improving batteries through investing in research, for example, and the gap that will need to be filled by other kinds of cars, such as those fueled by low-emissions biofuels or hydrogen, to reach very low emissions levels for the transportation sector.

Another important finding from the study was that the potential for shifting to EVs is fairly uniform for different parts of the country. "The adoption potential of electric vehicles is remarkably similar across cities," Trancik says, "from dense urban areas like New York, to sprawling cities like Houston. This goes against the view that electric vehicles—at least affordable ones, which have limited range—only really work in dense urban centers."

Explore further: NREL assesses strategies needed for light-duty vehicle greenhouse gas reduction

More information: Nature Energy, nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/nenergy.2016.112

Related Stories

Study shows electric cars bring environmental benefits

May 14, 2014

(Phys.org) —If electric vehicles were widely available, New Zealanders would buy enough of them to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the transport sector by one-fifth over the next 18 years, new research from Victoria ...

Meeting the electric vehicle challenge

March 11, 2016

From an environmental perspective, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (EVs) are good because they produce little to no greenhouse gases. From a driver's perspective, though, EVs can cause "range anxiety" – that is, worrying ...

Tesla's gamble on its 'affordable' electric car

April 4, 2016

Tesla announced what it calls its "most affordable" electric vehicle in the Model 3 last week. The car can now be ordered with a deposit of A$1,500 in Australia (US$1,000 in the United States) but won't be delivered until ...

Recommended for you

Scientists write 'traps' for light with tiny ink droplets

October 23, 2017

A microscopic 'pen' that is able to write structures small enough to trap and harness light using a commercially available printing technique could be used for sensing, biotechnology, lasers, and studying the interaction ...

When words, structured data are placed on single canvas

October 22, 2017

If "ugh" is your favorite word to describe entering, amending and correcting data on the rows and columns on spreadsheets you are not alone. Coda, a new name in the document business, feels it's time for a change. This is ...

Enhancing solar power with diatoms

October 20, 2017

Diatoms, a kind of algae that reproduces prodigiously, have been called "the jewels of the sea" for their ability to manipulate light. Now, researchers hope to harness that property to boost solar technology.

115 comments

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

dogbert
2.2 / 5 (25) Aug 15, 2016
The article noted the need for an additional car for long distance travel. But most people cannot afford a gasoline vehicle for long distance driving plus an additional higher cost electric vehicle.

Electric cars cannot replace gasoline vehicles until there is either very rapid recharge ability developed or we develop high density battery packs which can be rapidly exchanged along with abundant exchange stations.
greenonions
4.9 / 5 (17) Aug 15, 2016
But most people cannot afford a gasoline vehicle for long distance driving plus an additional higher cost electric vehicle.
Many homes here in the U.S. have more than one car. Enterprise will rent you compact car for $13 a day. I recently took a trip - drove 1200 miles in a weekend - and it cost me less than $40. I figured that was cheaper than the oil changes and tire wear. Fast charging is already hear - and batteries are only going to get better.
krundoloss
3.1 / 5 (8) Aug 15, 2016
The real reasons: People don't like limitations, and people don't like new technology that is less capable than the old. I live in a rural area, and most people have trucks. Why do they have trucks? Because they want to be able to pull a boat or a jetski if they feel like it. But mostly because trucks are big and powerful. Electric vehicles have certain advantages, and if they focus on those, much like Tesla has done, then people will buy them. But most people in non-urban areas do not want an EV unless it is BETTER than a gasoline vehicle. We are getting there, but really, the majority of people will not Sacrifice anything just to have an Electric Vehicle. And it has a hidden cost - when the batteries degrade, what do you do then?
krundoloss
2.8 / 5 (13) Aug 15, 2016
Just read this article: https://transport...ity-bar/

I'm sorry but a car that can only go 55 miles without needing to charge is a joke. Anything less than 200 mile range is downright unusable, you may as well just get a golf cart.
dogbert
1.7 / 5 (18) Aug 15, 2016
krindoloss,

You make a good point which is usually ignored when talking about electric vehicles. The batteries will degrade and are prohibitively expensive to replace.
antigoracle
2.2 / 5 (17) Aug 15, 2016
I recently took a trip - drove 1200 miles in a weekend - and it cost me less than $40.

It's a "good" thing you are so green. That's more than I have driven for the entire year so far.
yoatmon
3.8 / 5 (10) Aug 15, 2016
The biggest deterrent to EVs is the attitude of established conservative auto manufacturers and not range anxiety. They care less about a damaged environment including climate change. As long as their margin of profit remains steady or increases, the situation - as is- remains tolerable.
RM07
3.9 / 5 (14) Aug 15, 2016
The article noted the need for an additional car for long distance travel. But most people cannot afford a gasoline vehicle for long distance driving plus an additional higher cost electric vehicle.

Electric cars cannot replace gasoline vehicles until there is either very rapid recharge ability developed or we develop high density battery packs which can be rapidly exchanged along with abundant exchange stations.

Long distance travel with a Tesla already includes coast-to-coast DC supercharging.

Most people don't consider stopping 20 minutes every 3-4 hours much of an inconvenience, in fact, they tend to do naturally. And, Tesla drivers actually take MORE long distance trips with their EV rather than old gasmobile, because driving a Tesla is so enjoyable.
greenonions
4.6 / 5 (10) Aug 15, 2016
Good presentation here by Tony Sebe. He makes the case that all new vehicles will be electric by around 2030. http://www.bing.c...M=VRDGAR
Benni
1.5 / 5 (17) Aug 15, 2016
I recently took a trip - drove 1200 miles in a weekend - and it cost me less than $40.

It's a "good" thing you are so green. That's more than I have driven for the entire year so far.


.......and he's an 80'something year old man ag. I'd say he just fibbing because he doesn't know what else to say today but he wants to somehow "matter".
Eikka
3.2 / 5 (11) Aug 15, 2016
The study also fails to note that most people don't drive new cars, and the lifespan of a regular car is twice that of an EV because of the aging battery.

And if 90% of the vehicles were replaced with EVs, the grid couldn't handle it and lithium prices would shoot through the roof for a lack of production capability. Even after the Tesla Gigafactory opens, there's not enough manufacturing capacity in the world for more than 3-4 million EVs, and there are over 250 million private cars in the US alone.
He makes the case that all new vehicles will be electric by around 2030.


2030 is an awfully short time away to ramp the production up, even to meet just US demand alone. 14 years.

Most people don't consider stopping 20 minutes every 3-4 hours much of an inconvenience


But they would if it happens every 60 miles.

gkam
2.1 / 5 (17) Aug 15, 2016
I like all you folk without EVs telling those of us who have them how they are not good.

Keep it up, and you will be the last ones on your block to wise up, . . out of stubbornness.
Lord_jag
4.6 / 5 (9) Aug 15, 2016
and the lifespan of a regular car is twice that of an EV because of the aging battery.

Are you kidding me?

I never get more than 8 years from a car. They turn to rust and service fees cost more than replacement. All battery cars have 10 year warranties. Batteries fail before that and you get a new one. For free.

Where are you getting this mis-information and why are you spreading it?
Lord_jag
4.2 / 5 (5) Aug 15, 2016


But they would if it happens every 60 miles.


And... who makes cars that need to recharge every 60 miles? Who? Oh they have a gas model too? And of course they *couldn't* put a decent sized battery in it could they? Nah. That might make it viable and detract from all their fuel sales.

So.. electric cars with reasonable ranges... how many gas varieties do they sell as well? None? Huh.... that's not suspicious AT ALL is it?!?
tinitus
Aug 15, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
greenonions
5 / 5 (8) Aug 15, 2016
The grid will be fine Eikka - http://midwestene...ehicles/

There is plenty of lithium in the world - you have tried that one many times. Any ways - 14 years is a long time - so who knows what technology will be being used at that point - there are many new battery technologies on the horizon.

But they would if it happens every 60 miles.
Which is why 2nd gen cars are about to hit the market (Chevy Bolt etc. etc.) with 200 mile range, and by 2030 it will probably be more like 500.
antigoracle
1.3 / 5 (12) Aug 15, 2016
The grid will be fine Eikka - http://midwestene...ehicles/

This is why onionTard is Retard of the Year.
Nelder and his colleagues believe it's critical that rates be structured to reward off-peak vehicle charging with reduced prices.

Reward off-peak charging and soon enough it becomes your new peak.
Have a look at what it takes to manage kettles being turned on.
https://www.youtu...AvewWfrA
gkam
2.3 / 5 (18) Aug 15, 2016
Since we got the EV in late December, we have saved 440 gallons of gasoline.

We do not use coal at all in California, and have significant alternative energy sources. My own power is generated by my PV panels. No pollution at all. Sorry about yours.
wjr321
1.9 / 5 (9) Aug 15, 2016
EV fans tend to try to guilt trip others into joining the lithium brigade. Won't happen.

The market, if allowed to operate, will tell.
greenonions
5 / 5 (6) Aug 15, 2016
wjr
The market, if allowed to operate, will tell.
If you watch the video I linked from Tony Sebe - you will see that is exactly the point he is making - that solar power, and batteries will continue down in price - EV's will become the dominant energy source - simply based on economics.

goracle thinks that by linking a video of how the Brits put lots of kettles on in the evening - he/she has demonstrated anything. Fortunately engineers are working hard at the development of the grid of the future - and it is working. Goracle is stuck worrying about kettles in England. http://www.martin...gy-today Goracles video was from 2010. Not too many EV's on the road in 2010. In fact - in time - EV's will help balance the fluctuations on the grid. http://www.powere...rid.html An informed person would know that.
gkam
2.4 / 5 (14) Aug 15, 2016
"EV fans tend to try to guilt trip others into joining the lithium brigade. Won't happen."
-----------------------

Nope. Their benefits are sufficient by themselves.

And you can stamp your feet and scream "No!" if you want, but people are going to buy them.
Thorium Boy
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 16, 2016
In 1981 a B-movie came out called "Firebird 2015" about a Marxist totalitarian government in the U.S. that had banned all gasoline-powered cars. Little did they know then it could actually seem possible.
PhysicsMatter
3.2 / 5 (9) Aug 16, 2016
The problem with EV is not only range but readiness to drive. You actually need car when you really need it, emergencies unpredictable use. EV will likely fail in that. Otherwise, planned driving would be possible but not as easy as replacing 90% of gas cars.

An Israeli company tried a solution to readiness years ago and failed. They tried the devise quick automatic battery replacement station, it took them less than five minutes to change lithium battery but this business model was abandoned.

It turned out that battery is not equal to another battery of the same type and manufacturer due to number of charging cycles and specifics usage of the battery, temperature , humidity even a way of driving (using it) a shape of discharge cycle.

In the end they would possible rob some customers of "value" while adding value to others, illegal business practice that would only work for leases.
Unless you can charge it in 5 minutes, changing is not a solution.
finnjacob
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 16, 2016
Spending four years of research to find that transition to electric cars will reduce CO2 emission? Would it help the change to electric cars if US citizens had to pay the same gas prices as Europeans? Sharing cars in an owner-possessed society like the US?
tinitus
Aug 16, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
tinitus
Aug 16, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 16, 2016
The electromobiles are OK, but the switching to electromobility should be synchronized with switching of energetic to non-fossil energy sources.

Have you been watching any news in the past decade or so? News flash: That is exactly what has been happening.

Without it the switching to electromobiles will not decrease the consumption of fossil fuels

Did you even bother to read the article? They say right there that even without any further change the emissions will drop by 30% (because powerplants are more efficient at converting fossil fuels to power than cars are - and batteries are also very efficient)
tinitus
Aug 16, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
greenonions
5 / 5 (5) Aug 16, 2016
so that the net efficiency of electric cars is suddenly just 25 - 27%. And what about the cost of lithium, copper, neodymium? Color me impressed....
Nobody cares if you are impressed or not - facts are what matters. What if you run your EV off of nuclear/hydro/wind/solar/geothermal/tidal/wave/otec? The future is not fossil fuels - it is a mixed basket. Based on some pretty solid reasoning - one can conclude that failing a technological breakthrough that we are not aware of yet, solar will become the dominant power source of the future. Do some reading.
tinitus
Aug 16, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
tinitus
Aug 16, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
James_Morgan
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 16, 2016
This would be much much lower in the UK.
On street parking is extremely common in small UK towns. I know near me it's a free for all for spaces, where you end up often parking nowhere near your house (anything up to a quarter of a mile away for me).

Unless you have a driveway or usable garage, EV's are completely out of the question before looking at anything else.
Veneficus
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 16, 2016
The article noted the need for an additional car for long distance travel. But most people cannot afford a gasoline vehicle for long distance driving plus an additional higher cost electric vehicle.

Electric cars cannot replace gasoline vehicles until there is either very rapid recharge ability developed or we develop high density battery packs which can be rapidly exchanged along with abundant exchange stations.


"[...] driving needs could be met by using a different car (in a two-car home), or by renting, or using a car-sharing service"

Plus, many dealers/car brands already offer mobility packages, where you receive a free dirty car for a number of weeks per year for vacation needs etc.
RM07
3.8 / 5 (10) Aug 16, 2016
The problem with EV is not only range but readiness to drive. You actually need car when you really need it, emergencies unpredictable use. EV will likely fail in that. Otherwise, planned driving would be possible but not as easy as replacing 90% of gas cars.

What's the "readiness to drive problem"???

A Tesla Model S goes 274 miles on a full charge. Let's say my commute is 70 miles roundtrip, which is larger than average. What's my problem?

That I may accidentally need to drive an additional 300 miles on top of my 70, and couldn't manage a 20 minute stop along that 5 hour trip?

With an EV you leave your house with a full tank every morning, unlike an ICE vehicle.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (11) Aug 16, 2016
I like all you folk without EVs telling those of us who have them how they are not good
Notice how the poor old psychopath george kamburoff is so lonely and desperate for attention that he continues to try to bait people with one of his many lies about things he never did and never learned and never earned and never owned.

You don't own EV or PV george. We all know this.

'Look at me! Look at me! I'm REAL goddammit!!'

No, you're a caricature of a real person. A cartoon. A lie.
greenonions
5 / 5 (5) Aug 16, 2016
tinitus
The installation cost already represents over 50% of TCO and it can be hardly eliminated.
It can be reduced - as is happening every day. But so what? Electricity from pv is coming in consistently around 5 cents (u.s.) Kwh. The price is going to keep dropping. So who cares what % of TCO is installation cost - unless you put it in context - and understand the entire picture. As Sebe points out - when the cost of solar is less than the cost of transmissions (which it will be) - it wont matter how much fossil fuels cost - they could be 0 - and solar will still be cheaper.
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (12) Aug 16, 2016
goracle thinks that by linking a video of how the Brits put lots of kettles on in the evening - he/she has demonstrated anything. Fortunately engineers are working hard at the development of the grid of the future - and it is working. Goracle is stuck worrying about kettles in England. http://www.martin...gy-today An informed person would know that.

The astonishing ignorance of the Chicken Little, onions, posting links that are totally devoid of any facts, since they are designed to be propaganda. Yet, this is how the Chicken Little boasts that it is INFORMED.
Get someone with a brain to read and explain the following to you. http://www.larouc...cism.pdf
gkam
2.5 / 5 (15) Aug 16, 2016
anti, please grow up. This is not a contest of seeing who can scream the loudest across the playground, it is a discussion of electric vehicles.

Do you have one? Then, why do you pose as someone with knowledge?

I have one, and it is powered by the PV panels on my roof. Since it is Summer, we are ahead 120kWh for powering the house and automobile completely, but that will disappear in the Winter.

Yes, we use the grid as a "storage" device, and it works very well for us.

It is the posts by those with no experience, only wiki, who pose as folk who "know" the technology without actually trying it who are irritants.

Which are you, . . an understanding owner with experience or the kook on the sidelines mouthing off?
Edenlegaia
2.1 / 5 (7) Aug 16, 2016
As long as the EV will cost your house and your entire family's kidneys, don't expect any majority rushing to it. The green revolution they will bring will be slow if people can only dream to have them, because they won't afford them.
greenonions
5 / 5 (6) Aug 16, 2016
Goracle brings up the Energiewende program in Germany - as a rebuttal to a conversation about grid stability, and the ability for the grid to handle the increased load of EV's. Energiewende has been very controversial - and there is a lot of misinformation being put out by groups who would like it to fail. It is important to know that Energiewende was meant as a long term process - the first phase was going to be painful - as it entailed shutting down their nukes - and thus falling back on coal. More positive reports show the program to be successful, and on track - http://renewecono...on-15022 The German people overwhelmingly support the process. It is instructive that Goracle did not pick a country like Denmark - that is probably the best of example of how the grid can handle intermittents. Whatever - keep howling at the moon if you can't see what is happening.
greenonions
5 / 5 (6) Aug 16, 2016
Edenlegaia
As long as the EV will cost your house and your entire family's kidneys, don't expect any majority rushing to it.
I guess you have not been following the Model 3 story! http://www.scient...ic-cars/
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 16, 2016
Goracle brings up the Energiewende program in Germany - as a rebuttal to a conversation about grid stability.....

So, in response to my post about grid stability, the Retard of the Year posts a link to a propaganda piece on Germany's power, one that it is incapable of reading, far less comprehending, or else it would have see that it is totally devoid of any facts. So, I post one showing the reality of the German system and what's the retard's response; accusing me of not choosing Denmark for my response. The go to response, of the ignorant Chicken Little when they are revealed for the retard they are, deflect by diversion and accusation.
Get someone with a brain to read and explain the following -- http://notrickszo...9r4.dpbs
gkam
2.2 / 5 (13) Aug 16, 2016
anti failed to answer my question:

"Which are you, . . an understanding owner with experience or the kook on the sidelines mouthing off?"

How can you be an expert on anything when you are just a filthy mouth?

The point is, some of us actually have electric cars and experience with them, and you do not. so, why do you expect us to allow you any credibility at all?

Now that is three questions to which you owe us answers.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 16, 2016
anti failed to answer my question
Well why interact with a serial liar? Except if you want to learn more about serial liars.

Thats the only reason. Its interesting how readily serial liars and braggarts will give up sensitive personal info like address, ss#, etc.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 16, 2016
As long as the EV will cost your house and your entire family's kidneys, don't expect any majority rushing to it.

At a naive first look - maybe. But if you figure the lifetime cost EVs are already comparable to old cars. And that's not even factoring that gas can only become more expensive while electricity prices have nowhere to go but down in the long run
(And we're not even considering all the additional taxes you'll be paying to mitigate climate change damages if you continue to use fossil fueled cars).

All 'round EVs are a pretty sweet deal for your wallet. Even moreso if you can produce your own power.
gkam
1.2 / 5 (12) Aug 16, 2016
Yes, the cowards use phony monikers like "variations on the name otto", as you admitted before. These are what you have called your "games", which is why nobody takes you seriously. We can find pathetic creatures like you everywhere on the internet, using anonymity as a shield against reality.

I do not know if you really are a fat shut-in like the others say, but you certainly had no mother to teach you manners or even civilization.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (13) Aug 16, 2016
But we do know that george kamburoff is a lying, cheating psychopath. We also know he is so reckless and irresponsible and ignorant as to disclose sensitive personal info on a public website while at the same time lying, cheating, making up facts, and in general trashing his own rep and cred.

What kind of person would do such things? Thats pretty easy to figure out.

"He does bizarre and self-destructive things because consequences that would fill the ordinary man with shame, self-loathing, and embarrassment simply do not affect the psychopath at all. What to others would be a disaster is to him merely a fleeting inconvenience."

George has expressed his pride in not feeling fear...

"Cleckley's seminal hypothesis concerning the psychopath is that he suffers from a very real mental illness indeed: a profound and incurable affective deficit. If he really feels anything at all, they are emotions of only the shallowest kind."

-But thats just another symptom.
gkam
1.1 / 5 (11) Aug 16, 2016
otto, you are only outing yourself as an anonymous sniper, hiding behind a phony name too SCARED to face up to your own words.

Tell us who you are, so we can tell your mommy.
greenonions
5 / 5 (5) Aug 16, 2016
goracle
or else it would have see that it is totally devoid of any facts.


Oh look a fact -
Renewables now provide close to 30% of Germany's power on an average basis.

And another one
the balancing and intra-day electricity markets have been modified in ways that provide greater flexibility for renewables.

And another one
when wind and solar reach very high levels of generation on peak days, this causes electricity market prices to decline in Germany, even go to zero or negative.

And another one
So inverter firmware was redesigned and inverters modified to vary the cut-off frequency


And each FACT relevant to the subject at hand - which is the balancing of the grid as we increase the penetration of intermittent sources. And our side did not have to resort to screaming filth and hate - which surely says a lot.
Estevan57
4 / 5 (11) Aug 16, 2016
"Which are you, . . an understanding owner with experience or the kook on the sidelines mouthing off?" - gkam

Looks to me like you could be proud of being both, gkam. Except for the understanding part.
howhot3
4.9 / 5 (8) Aug 16, 2016
You know the more I read from my friend @antigoracle the more I think he works at a gas-station or something.
BongThePuffin
Aug 16, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
krundoloss
5 / 5 (2) Aug 17, 2016
James_Morgan brought up a good point - EV's are only for people with houses, garages, etc. If you have an apartment or shared parking, then where will you plug it in? Sure you can use a quick charge station, I guess.

What I would prefer is an EV that you drive to work, and while you are at work, it has solar panels deployed all day, gathering power for the ride home. Then you would save lots of money indeed, since the car is basically solar powered. Also the car being in the shade of its own solar panels would keep it cool. Sounds like a win-win to me, atleast for sunny hot climates.
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 17, 2016
EV's are only for people with houses, garages, etc. If you have an apartment or shared parking, then where will you plug it in?

Recharge stations are always an option (you go fill up your regular car. With powerfull chargers it's no more hassle to go recharge your EV once a week). Maybe some have one at work. Or cities could adopt something that is being tried out here: Recharging at street lights
http://cleantechn...nveiled/

it has solar panels deployed all day

If you crunch the numbers on that one it doesn't work out. The area of a car isn't really enough to gather the amount of energy you need (at least not for the type of cars that are currently acceptable to the public.)
There is a project to create a street legal car that can do this, but that's still very much protype-y
http://mashable.c...crGiXkqL
gkam
2 / 5 (12) Aug 17, 2016
There exist shelters for EVs with panels on top. Like small carports, they shelter and charge simultaneously.
krundoloss
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 17, 2016
Its worth noting that I have never even seen a recharge station in North Carolina. Anywhere.
greenonions
5 / 5 (3) Aug 17, 2016
krundoloss - why is that worth noting? Two things to point out. 1. You can recharge your car at home - so clearly much less need for public charge stations. 2. It is early days on the transition to EV's - so of course it will take decades to put the infrastructure in place.
Now - if you are interested in where the recharge stations are - look at this map - and zoom in on North Carolina. https://www.plugshare.com/
gkam
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 17, 2016
gkam
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 17, 2016
krundloss, go to chargepoint and type in North Carolina or where you live.

You can also try plugshare.

http://www.plugshare.com/
gkam
1.7 / 5 (12) Aug 17, 2016
I see Auntie Ira who has no EV still follows me around to give me ones, no matter the post.

It is a sign of losing the contest of wits.
antigoracle
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 17, 2016
You know the more I read from my friend @antigoracle the more I think he works at a gas-station or something.

Wow!! Excellent, you learned to read. Now, don't rush it....baby steps...you don't want to burn out that lone neuron. Let's see if you can learn to comprehend and then, fingers crossed, you just might be able to think. You know, with your head so far up your man crush, Al's rectum, I can't tell where he ends and you begin, but I can understand why you would think someone shitting on you, is your friend.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 17, 2016
anti seems to have some kind of anal fixation.
Edenlegaia
2 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2016
I guess you have not been following the Model 3 story! http://www.scient...ic-cars/


Yes, yes, wonderful story, wonderful.....
But it doesn't help those who can barely afford to buy a car, and certainly not a Brand New one. Even if it was to cost 20.000$, it wouldn't seduce people who can only spend 10000$, maybe even need to borrow them.
That sounds like a sweet wish to the tooth fairy, but just like there are small, not so expensive diesel cars, there should be small, not so expensive EV cars. There will, surely....probably.......maybe.
Till then, "Ave, Tesla! Spendari Te Salutant". For the others....well, they'll wait. And continue to drive diesel cars.
greenonions
5 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia
But it doesn't help those who can barely afford to buy a car
So? Musk has outlined his plan in great detail. Start out by producing low volume high profit - luxury cars. Leverage this into mid level - higher volume - lower profit cars. Use your knowledge/manufacturing position to now produce ultra high volume - affordable cars. He is on track. It is amazing how it seems you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. We are either radical environmentalists, or snobs who don't care about poor people. Maybe Musk will fail - but at least he tries.
Edenlegaia
4 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia
But it doesn't help those who can barely afford to buy a car
So? Musk has outlined his plan in great detail. Start out by producing low volume high profit - luxury cars. Leverage this into mid level - higher volume - lower profit cars. Use your knowledge/manufacturing position to now produce ultra high volume - affordable cars. He is on track. It is amazing how it seems you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. We are either radical environmentalists, or snobs who don't care about poor people. Maybe Musk will fail - but at least he tries.


Reading you, i seem to hate any EV car and their manufacturers because they're not affordeable. I can assure you i don't. Those guys are creating a good future. But when i hear about how many people will drive EV cars in the next decade, it makes me laugh.
I can't believe people can prospect such a fast purchase of those cars, the way they are now. It's that simple.
Edenlegaia
3.5 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2016
Cont'd

Let's not forget about the usual "Those driving diesel cars must love polluting the world!". For now, i only have gkam in mind for that kind of....let's say, "usual accusations" towards those who can't afford anything else. It's just insane to think people deliberately avoid EV cars because you can't drive far or because you can't drive fast. It's probably false, and even then, it costs less to fill the energy needs of a EV car than a diesel one.
But then again....you must first endure the cost of the car. As awful as it may seem, for now, you must have money to be economic.
gkam
2 / 5 (12) Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia, there is already a good market for used EVs. And they are as cheap as regular polluters. I was surprised. I'll see if I can find the article.

And my arguments about driving Diesels was for the abusive kooks who threw nasties about electric vehicles. It was defending my decision to get clean power and transportation when we had the chance.

I understand the present limits of EVs. Go try a used one and find out of they are for you. They are not for everybody, . . . yet.
greenonions
5 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia
I can't believe people can prospect such a fast purchase of those cars, the way they are now. It's that simple.
And that is not what is being proposed. It is widely acknowledged that EV's are currently not an equivalent replacement of ices. That is why Musk and others are building giga factories. That is is why there is so much research going on the field of battery tech. Tesla was overwhelmed by the response to the model 3. They are doing something right. Why not just relax - and enjoy the unfolding story - instead of having to add your voice to the chorus of luddites who cannot imagine that the future may be different than the present.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 18, 2016
EVs have outdone the ICE in town traffic and commutes. One cannot compare an EV to an ICE in those roles and have the ICE do anything but lose on multiple accounts.

First is "filling up" at home at night, which is really cheap and convenient. Next is the quiet and surprising performance of the electric motor which has 100% torque while at zero RPM. Then, the drive is quick and sure, with the stages of regeneration slowing down the car by generating power into the battery instead of using the brakes.

Best is the lack of maintenance. Nobody does anything until 20,000 miles for the first checkup of operation. No oil to change, no transmission fluid, no filters. No tune-ups. It has the maintenance needs of a toaster: Just clean it out once in a while.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (10) Aug 18, 2016
George kamburoff lies about his earning military awards so he can lecture people about politics with his made-up facts.

George kamburoff lies about being an engr so he can lecture engrs about engineering with made-up facts.

George kamburoff lies about his bought-and-paid-for MS so he can lecture people about environmentalism with his made-up facts.

George kamburoff lies about owning EV and PV so he can lecture people about conservation with his made-up facts.

Can we discern a pattern here?

Psychopaths are so predictable.
Edenlegaia
4.5 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2016
I care little about the "present limits of EVs". I have 15km to drive to go to work. What's that to an EV? It probably takes almost the whole week without needing a refill.
I don't need to try one to know how fine it would be if i purchased one. What i need is money. Like many others. Or affordeable EV cars. Like many others too.
Till then, i'll do as usual, wait and see what the future brings, how that market develops, the reviews of people actually driving those cars.....and hopefully, i won't see any other strange allusions to the lazyness/lack of conscience from those who can't imitate them yet.
Zzzzzzzz
3 / 5 (8) Aug 18, 2016
Electric vehicles convert about https://www.fuele...ch.shtml from the grid to power at the wheels, whereas conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels. Sounds nice, but the effectiveness of fossil energy conversion to electricity is just 40 - 45%, so that the net efficiency of electric cars is suddenly just 25 - 27%. And what about the cost of lithium, copper, neodymium? Color me impressed....

After seeing the stuff you post, I'll color you delusional.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 18, 2016
" hopefully, i won't see any other strange allusions to the lazyness/lack of conscience from those who can't imitate them yet"
------------------------------------

Those comments were specifically to those who wanted to offensively and maliciously argue the relative merits of the systems, not you. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I found out this forum is rife with anonymous snipers, and we get defensive when attacked by the others who hide and attack.

Go look into the used EV market. Go for a Nissan Leaf or VW e-Golf. The early models are very capable of doing what you need, and cost less than an ICE. You may like it.

Really.

greenonions
5 / 5 (3) Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia
Till then, i'll do as usual, wait and see what the future brings,
Liar - here is what you said
But when i hear about how many people will drive EV cars in the next decade, it makes me laugh.
That's not waiting to see - that's pre-judging. Watch the Tony Sebe video if you're interested in the what is unfolding.
Edenlegaia
not rated yet Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia
Till then, i'll do as usual, wait and see what the future brings,
Liar - here is what you said
But when i hear about how many people will drive EV cars in the next decade, it makes me laugh.
That's not waiting to see - that's pre-judging. Watch the Tony Sebe video if you're interested in the what is unfolding.


.....got me there. I guess being able to spend only up to 5000$ for a car made me slightly too bitter to simply wait and see. I've been watching few articles on newspaper and stuff since 2008. I thought i would see small, not so expensive EV cars in, like, 2012, and buy one maybe this year? Little i knew back then about how you introduce new products to markets.
I lost hope to buy one for now. Maybe in 2025? I heard there would be no place for filthy diesel car users then. Damn, i hope things will be done for that....little hope but still hope.
And some laughs at numbers and predictions of course. Sometimes you just can't help it.
greenonions
not rated yet Aug 18, 2016
Edenlegaia
And some laughs at numbers and predictions of course.
Well - some things are predictable. If you want to understand - look at a cost curve on wind, solar, and batteries. In line with predictions - solar is coming in at sub 3 cents Kwh http://www.pv-tec...-subsidy and it will keep going down.
Edenlegaia
not rated yet Aug 19, 2016
Well - some things are predictable. If you want to understand - look at a cost curve on wind, solar, and batteries. In line with predictions - solar is coming in at sub 3 cents Kwh http://www.pv-tec...-subsidy and it will keep going down.

But some predictions are destroyed by events. Predictions told me i would have to spend more than 100$ during the mid 2010's to fill my car with diesel, due to prices rising.
I spend roughly 65$. Strange predictions got rekt by reality. The price can (will?) rise soon again, but i doubt it'll come to the said situation in the five next years.
What would be YOUR predictions, in your country, regarding the number of EV drivers in the next ten years? In France, it was 75000~ in 2015. Probably around 100k now. Knowing there are around 38 millions of vehicles (surely slightly less drivers?) in 2014, it's a low percentage.
We may reach a million in ten years. I don't expect more.
greenonions
not rated yet Aug 19, 2016
But some predictions are destroyed by events.
Wow - you make the classic mistake - that is emphasized by Sebe. I suspect you have not listened to him. Some things are predictable (Moores law). Others are too chaotic (the price of oil). Solar/wind/batteries are technologies. Have you looked at the curves on these three? It is highly predictable that they will continue down. My prediction is worthless. I have not devoted my life to studying the data. People like Sebe have. He makes a very logical case that all electric vehicles being sold in 2030 will be electric. I am happy to watch the story unfold. I am tired of the small minded deniers - who can't see the facts.
greenonions
not rated yet Aug 19, 2016
correction - he makes the prediction that all vehicles being sold in 2030 will be electric. That's what you get for getting up in the middle of the night!
Edenlegaia
not rated yet Aug 19, 2016
Well, believe in the future you want to see. I just watch the stream of events while knowing very well how disappointed in prophecies i would be if i dared believing blindly in perfectly logical predictions. That's why i like probabilities. It tells you things can get fucked up by things you missed.
Seba will create a wonderful world for EV cars and everyone will have access to them in 2030? Yeeha. If it were to become true, it would be awesome.
Until then, i'll remain in the side of those who can only wait for those cars to be reacheable. I'll let reality take care of probablities.
greenonions
5 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2016
Well, believe in the future you want to see.
Well - I think it is reasonable to look at trends - and to try to extrapolate from those trends. You have already proven that you do not actually let reality take care of probabilities - I caught you in that lie before. I do agree that any one who predicts the future - is probably wrong. However - it is good to pay attention to current trends - and as I say - some things are more predictable than others. I not only want to pay close attention to what is happening - but want to actively participate in advocating or a better - saner future. I would rather be excited about what is happening in the world - and work for a better future - and be wrong - than to spend my life arguing that what is happening in the world - cannot really be happening - so we should piss all over science a progress (Eikka and MR166)
max_bean
2.7 / 5 (7) Aug 20, 2016
BTW, Tesla just opened their Gagafactory in Sparks Nevada a few weeks ago. They plan to ramp up to 500,000 battery packs per year to support the Model 3 roll out next year. That's more battery cells than produced by all the rest of the manufacturers in the world in a year.

The current Tesla model S and model X cars are in almost every way better than their ICE based competitors. The electric motors provide much better performance, take less space, and are far more reliable. The model S can do 0-60mph in 2.6 seconds... It can go over 250 miles on a charge, there are coast to coast super chargers the can add 150 miles of range in 20 minutes (for free).

The model 3 will start shipping next year at a $35,000 base price. All indications are that it will be a great car with over 215 miles of range. It was only 15 years after the model T was introduced before all the horses were gone from New York city. The model 3 may do the same to the ICE.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 20, 2016
Tesla is not the only EV manufacturer. EVs may save Volkswagen. I like our e-Golf, and it saves us enough money for the next car. BMW and PG&E are trying to develop a system to use the car batteries on the grid for a price.

The world is changing, and will catch many by surprise.
max_bean
2.3 / 5 (6) Aug 20, 2016
Yes, and don't forget the Nissan Leaf. Next year's model will have 200 miles of range and they also have a nice network of chargers.

Also, The Chevy Bolt with 200 miles of range will be out soon.

greenonions
5 / 5 (2) Aug 20, 2016
Apple and Samsung are also getting in to the EV market. BYD is the largest EV manufacturer in China - and you cant buy one in the U.S. I think they are trying to get a foot hold in Europe. Yep - the world is a changing.
BackBurner
5 / 5 (1) Aug 20, 2016
""Could existing electric vehicles (EVs), despite their limited driving range, bring about a meaningful reduction in the greenhouse-gas emissions that are causing global climate change?"

No. Trick aquestion.
BackBurner
5 / 5 (1) Aug 20, 2016
I never get more than 8 years from a car.


Well then you're certainly doing something wrong. I own 5 cars at the moment, the newest of which is 11 years old. After that comes 17, 19, 27 years old and a 31 year old.

Where are you getting this mis-information and why are you spreading it?


Not where you're getting it, that's sure. You need to shut up before you scare someone. You don't know anything at all about cars or how to take care of them.
BackBurner
5 / 5 (1) Aug 20, 2016
It was only 15 years after the model T was introduced before all the horses were gone from New York city.


Horses were outlawed. That had something to do with it.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (9) Aug 20, 2016
"Horses were outlawed. That had something to do with it."
----------------------------------

Wow. Good thing we just happened to have the ICE available then, huh?
ab3a
3.3 / 5 (4) Aug 20, 2016
I have nothing against a vehicle with some different technology. Whether it is powered by electricity, atomic energy, or mutant hamsters, I really don't care. As long as it is widely supported, economical, and practical, I'm all for it.

What I object to is some professor postulating that a particular design should be sufficient for 90% of all needs. Clearly there was an agenda behind that proclamation. The final arbiter of such a decision is the market, not what some dim wit professor thinks. The implication is that someone knows what's best for us.

I know what is best for me. The market knows what is best for the economy. And it is the job of our government to decide whether the technology is environmentally appropriate. Okay, those mutant hamsters might be a problem if they ever escape...
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Aug 20, 2016
"Some professor" is not making you buy anything.

"Clearly there was an agenda behind that proclamation"

- Yeah, it is that conspiracy against you.
max_bean
2 / 5 (4) Aug 21, 2016
"Horses were outlawed. That had something to do with it."

Yes, the tail pipe emissions were no longer acceptable once alternatives were available. Similar to the issue we face today. Norway has already announced a ban on gas powered cars to start in ten years.

That 90% number is with today's cars, in a few years it will be much closer to 100%.
ab3a
3 / 5 (2) Aug 21, 2016
Norway has already announced a ban on gas powered cars to start in ten years.


Making proclamations or laws based upon what has not yet been produced in volume is not wise.The problem is that while electric vehicles do exist, they haven't reached economic and performance viability that would adequately replace gasoline powered vehicles.

There is another aspect to this: The electric grid probably isn't up to the task. It's not a question as to whether giant electricity providers such as Vattenfall have the Transmission capacity. They probably can manage it. The question is whether the distribution to the home can handle it.

That's a LOT of upgrades that will be needed in just ten years. I would expect electricity billing rates to go through the roof, making it even more difficult to produce an economically viable electric vehicle.
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2016
"The electric grid probably isn't up to the task."
---------------------------

That is a worry, but they are on top of it. When we got the EV PG&E said they would watch the loads on our line carefully, and make improvements if necessary. They want EV loads.
ab3a
3 / 5 (2) Aug 21, 2016
That is a worry, but they are on top of it. When we got the EV PG&E said they would watch the loads on our line carefully, and make improvements if necessary.


One or two houses in a neighborhood isn't a problem. Half the houses in a neighborhood all trying to charge at the same time IS. Those upgrades will be needed. They will be numerous. They won't be cheap. Meanwhile, linemen are scarce. It's so bad that when storms or disasters of some sort happen they have to bring in equipment and staff from utilities across many states.

Against a backdrop like that, we're talking major infrastructure changes with damned few who have the experience or training to do it. Whether PG&E wants those EV loads or not, the staffing or equipment to make it happen is sorely lacking.
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2016
How do you know what the number of linemen is?

You do not understand: The utilities are adding load. Each EV load is equal to another house. While with PG&E, I helped pour EPRI money for EVs in the 1980s, and that is what it took to get where we are now. Some power companies have been planning this for decades.
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2016
In the 1980's, my mentor Stanley Blois, our corporate consultant in Technical Services, had the entire postal service of Cupertino converted to electric vehicles, and monitored all aspects of their operation, with the knowledge and cooperation of the Postal Service. If proven, they would start converting.

Stanley proved it, but the new Postmaster General reneged on the promise, and gave the contracts to whoever paid him off. He was gone soon, but the damage was already done.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Aug 21, 2016
Half the houses in a neighborhood all trying to charge at the same time IS

Why is that a problem? The only time when all would be charging at once is at night. And at that time homes don't use much in the way of electricity for other stuff.

Against a backdrop like that, we're talking major infrastructure changes

The infrastructure in most industrialized nations is long due for an overhaul in any case. Why not combine the necessary with the useful and upgrade while they're at it?

we're talking major infrastructure changes with damned few who have the experience or training to do it.

If I read you correctly this means: jobs are being created and well paid because there are more jobs than people for the job. Where's the downside? Those on the job can choose the best pay and the job becomes attractive for people new to the job market (or those that want to switch/escape unemplyment). It's not like being a lineman requires a PhD or years of training.
ab3a
4 / 5 (4) Aug 21, 2016
You do not understand: The utilities are adding load.


If I didn't understand I would refrain from posting something like that.

Read what you just wrote. Yes, they're adding load. They're not adding much generation, transmission, or distribution capacity. The smart grid technologies are only going to get you so far. There is a point at which you have to start upgrading transformers, lines, breakers, and so on. I know more than a few engineers who are wondering where those EV charging stations are going to get their power from.

It is not an academic hand-waving exercise. There are serious doubts about whether a 50% EV system is even possible without a very expensive decade of upgrades.
ab3a
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 21, 2016
It's not like being a lineman requires a PhD or years of training.


Why don't you say that to a lineman and see what kind of response you get? I'll be watching from a safe distance.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2016
" I know more than a few engineers who are wondering where those EV charging stations are going to get their power from."
--------------------------------

You do? Are they electric utility engineers?

Are you aware that the utilities are themselves putting in charging stations? Where will they get their power?

The household load we have in the daytime will be equaled at night by the EV load. We already have power for that. Utilities are not unaware of load growth and where and when it occurs. This has been in planning for decades in some places.
Uncle Ira
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2016
" I know more than a few engineers who are wondering where those EV charging stations are going to get their power from."
--------------------------------

You do? Are they electric utility engineers?

Are you aware that the utilities are themselves putting in charging stations? Where will they get their power?

The household load we have in the daytime will be equaled at night by the EV load. We already have power for that. Utilities are not unaware of load growth and where and when it occurs. This has been in planning for decades in some places.


glam-Skippy. How you are Cher? I am good, thanks for asking. Let me help you a little Cher. Before you embarrass your self more than you have. The guy you are "debating" with IS an Electrical Engineer. He really HAS the degree in Electrical Engineering. He really IS a licensed Engineer. All those things that you ARE NOT.
gkam
1 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2016
Well, then, he can answer for himself, can't he?

My responses stand by themselves. Since he has not responded in a while, I think he is checking them out, which is a good thing.

I welcome a decent discussion as opposed to the attacks from snipers without such experience or education..
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2016
Ira is correct that I am not a degreed engineer, nor a registered one. My engineering jobs were outgrowths of experience. When I taught Power Quality, it was from my own conceptions of electromagnetism, the way I had explained it to myself after years of practical experience as an electrician and electronics technician. I concentrated on concepts, not memorization or math with Greek letters.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2016
In the 1980's, my mentor Stanley Blois, our corporate consultant in Technical Services, had the entire postal service of Cupertino converted to electric vehicles
-Was this before or after he canned your ass?
Ira is correct that I am not a degreed engineer, nor a registered one
-nor an educated one, nor an experienced one, nor one who could hold a job for very long.

But george kamburoff is the kind of engineer who thinks he can make up all sorts of bullshit facts and figures just because he was 'in the business'.
from my own conceptions of electromagnetism, the way I had explained it to myself after years of practical experience as an electrician and electronics tech
... Now does anybody besides me see something wrong with this form of education? Me and all the supervisors who had to let poor george go because I assume they did not understand engineering in the superior self-conjured way that george did?
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2016
to the attacks from snipers without such experience or education

What you don't know is a constant source of your misere, eh Cher? Assuming is a problem for you.

I concentrated on concepts, not memorization or math with Greek letters.

That is what the writers at Popular Science or Physorg would tell you too.That is the same argument that Really-Skippy and cantdrive-Skippy and bachoot-Skippy make.

But you can't do engineering unless you know the Maths and 1st Principles Cher. Sort like you when you said you "hired guys to do the calculus" for you. If you can't do the calculus, you can not even frame the question so somebody else can do it for you.

All you can do is talk about it, and get mad when you get called on your blunders on the elementary stuffs. There is a difference between popular science and engineering. You can not learn engineering on newagey blogs or "on the job". Especially seven different fields of engineering.
greenonions
5 / 5 (2) Aug 21, 2016
There is plenty of grid capacity to support a very high penetration of EV's. - http://insideevs....ehicles/ The utility companies should be welcoming the prospect of additional load - because that means additional revenue - perhaps with minimal additional cost. If the grid capacity is already there - then you don't need extra generating capacity - perhaps some transformer upgrades, and then smart grid systems to control the load distribution. As EV's develop longer range - there will be more opportunity for demand control. If I have a 200 mile range - and a 50 mile round trip commute - I can defer charging much more readily - and allow the grid operator to use me - as a grid stabilizer. Too much hand waving - and not enough understanding of this amazing opportunity.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) Aug 21, 2016
Why don't you say that to a lineman and see what kind of response you get?

I have. My best friend is an instructor for high voltage electricians. It's a trade. Sure you have to learn it, but it's not like there's high level math involved. University degrees or even stellar high school grades aren't required. The learning time is three years, but the kids are out there in the field as helpers within the first year.

As opposed to, say, being a nuclear power plant operator. Now THAT is one kind of tech you can't rapidly scale up because there the people you need aren't available...and are likely not going to be available in any kind of relevant numbers for the foreseeable future.
greenonions
5 / 5 (4) Aug 21, 2016
Backburner
Horses were outlawed. That had something to do with it.
Do you have any support for that assertion? I did a little checking on google - and could find nothing about New York outlawing horses.
http://cityroom.b...rd/?_r=0
https://books.goo...;f=false
https://www.googl...;cad=rja
max_bean
3 / 5 (4) Aug 21, 2016
BTW, The average automobile commuter spends 22.8 minutes commuting a one-way distance of 12.6 miles. 25miles uses about 10KW*hr, about the same as drying 3 loads of laundry with an electric dryer. I think the grid can handle it - especially at off peak times.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 21, 2016
The utilities will be happy as heck to give you a better way to draw more power, especially off-peak. It is their dream come true.
ab3a
1 / 5 (1) Aug 21, 2016
My best friend is an instructor for high voltage electricians. It's a trade. Sure you have to learn it, but it's not like there's high level math involved.


That's second hand knowledge. I have first hand experience of many years working with these people.

There is a condescending bias in academia that goes along the lines of if it doesn't require loads of classroom time that it must not be that difficult. It is wrong. You are perpetuating that wrongness.

It takes years of apprenticeship, training, and experience to do what these people do every day. You don't just hand some guy off the street a truck load of gear and a couple safety classes and send them on their way to do whatever.

My point is that it would take significant effort over years to get enough qualified people to do this work properly. It is not a trivial worker unit makes widget thingy that economists discuss in theory.
greenonions
not rated yet Aug 21, 2016
ab3a
My point is that it would take significant effort over years to get enough qualified people to do this work properly.
And the transition to EV's is going to take decades - so no problem right? If EV's start getting adopted in large numbers - utility revenue will increase - and they will have the resources to ramp up their work force to meet the demand. The link I gave above shows that we have sufficient capacity on the grid to accommodate a very high penetration of EV's - before ever having to increase generating capacity - so what will be needed will be upgrades to transformers etc. Utilities should be salivating at the bit - increased revenue - without that much extra expenditure.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Aug 22, 2016
It takes years of apprenticeship, training, and experience to do what these people do every day. You don't just hand some guy off the street a truck load of gear and a couple safety classes and send them on their way to do whatever.

I never said that. But it's not rocket science. You don't get to be a master baker within a few months, either, but you can bake some decent rolls after that time. There is no 'easy' trade. But let's not pretend that it can only be handfled by a select few, either.

There are countries where the changeover is happening and these countries require techs that can handle this (also loads of techs that can repair wind generators and work with biomass powerplants and making houses more energy efficient).

Guess what: these positions are being filled. There is no outcry over "we can't handle this because we have to few people".
dogbert
not rated yet Sep 11, 2016
Something which has been missing from these conversations is the fact that electric vehicle owners are getting a free ride on the roads and bridges which are funded by taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel.

Eventually, electric vehicle owners will have to pay their share of the cost of roadway construction and repair.

Consider that EV which costs two to three times the cost of a gasoline vehicle (and depreciates much quicker). The savings in fuel cost is largely offset by the increased cost of financing the purchase. Now factor in a usage fee of $50.00 to $100.00 per month to offset the loss of fuel taxes and you will see an additional factor which will tend to slow the adoption of EVs.

Government is generally looking the other way on the loss of revenue from EVs because the perception is that EVs should be encouraged, but this situation won't continue for long.

Please sign in to add a comment. Registration is free, and takes less than a minute. Read more

Click here to reset your password.
Sign in to get notified via email when new comments are made.