New power source discovered

Feb 10, 2012

(PhysOrg.com) -- Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and RMIT University have made a breakthrough in energy storage and power generation.

The power generated relative to the energy source size is three to four times greater than what is currently possible with the best lithium-ion batteries.

While on sabbatical from RMIT in 2009 and 2010, Associate Professor Dr Kourosh Kalantar-zadeh, from the School of Electrical and , joined MIT Associate Professor Michael Strano's nanotechnology research group.

The team was working on measuring the acceleration of a chemical reaction along a nanotube when they discovered that the reaction generated power.

Now the two researchers are using their combined expertise in chemistry and to explore this phenomenon.

Their work titled Nanodynamite: Fuel-coated could provide bursts of power to the smallest systems is in the December IEEE Spectrum Magazine, the publication of the IEEE.

Associate Professor Kalantar-zadeh said that his experimental system, based on one of the materials that have come from nanotechnology — carbon nanotubes — generates power, something researchers had not seen before.

“By coating a nanotube in nitrocellulose fuel and igniting one end, we set off a combustion wave along it and learned that a nanotube is an excellent conductor of heat from burning fuel. Even better, the combustion wave creates a strong electric current,” he said.

“Our discovery that a thermopower wave works best across these tubes because of their dual conductivity turns conventional thermoelectricity on its head.

“It's the first viable nanoscale approach to that exploits the thermoelectric effect by overcoming the feasibility issues associated with minimising dimensions.

“But there are multiple angles to explore when it comes to taming these exotic waves and, ultimately, finding out if they're the wave of the future.”

Explore further: Going nuts? Turkey looks to pistachios to heat new eco-city

Provided by RMIT University

4.5 /5 (59 votes)

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User comments : 59

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ThanderMAX
3 / 5 (2) Feb 10, 2012
But it won't be a reversible reaction.

Mostly for one time use battery.
TrinityComplex
3 / 5 (2) Feb 10, 2012
Yes, though likely recycleable. Depending on how cheap it is to manufacture there's the potential that they could just be recycled and replaced. That would certainly be quick option for electric vehicles when on long trips. Just swap the battery instead of waiting hours for the recharge.
dschlink
3 / 5 (2) Feb 10, 2012
This could be extremely useful in emergency power systems, since they should be chemically more stable than a battery. You could use it for anything from an emergency flashlight that could sit in your closet for years to a get-off-the-freeway power source in an electric car.
Callippo
1.6 / 5 (13) Feb 10, 2012
have made a breakthrough in energy storage and power generation
Nitrocellulose as a breakthrough in energy storage and generation? This principle is interesting as such, but useless with respect to accumulation of energy, production the less. This headline just parasites on energetic crisis.
pauljpease
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 10, 2012
I don't think you'd want this power source in your car, or anywhere near you, if it was scaled up to contain enough power to be relevant for everyday purposes. Why? Did anyone else notice that it is based on the combustion of nitrocellulose? For those of you who don't know, nitrocellulose is also known as gun cotton, and it is extremely flammable. Explosively so in fact.
jimbo92107
4.5 / 5 (4) Feb 10, 2012
An explosion of electricity? That opens up many new options. Laser rifles powered by cartridges of nano cellulose. The cartridges themselves could incorporate lasers. Gosh, what fun!
Ober
3 / 5 (4) Feb 10, 2012
This was published a few years back!!!!!
Sonhouse
not rated yet Feb 10, 2012
And not much happened to it then either.....
WhiteJim
2.8 / 5 (6) Feb 11, 2012
Battery swapping is the way electric vehicles MUST operate. It is faster than filling up with gas. It allows for the batteries to be maintained and replaced by the fueling station network. The auto industry must standardize itself to using a replaceble interchangeable battery pack that fits all electric vehicles. I wonder if such a simple concept will ever be allowed to be used.
Lurker2358
1.7 / 5 (12) Feb 11, 2012
Battery swapping is the way electric vehicles MUST operate. It is faster than filling up with gas. It allows for the batteries to be maintained and replaced by the fueling station network. The auto industry must standardize itself to using a replaceble interchangeable battery pack that fits all electric vehicles. I wonder if such a simple concept will ever be allowed to be used.


Short answer:

No.

Not in America anyway.

That would require the complete "communization" of the automobile industry.

The legislation required would never pass except possibly as a last ditch effort once ever drop of oil has been burned up.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (6) Feb 11, 2012
Battery swapping is the way electric vehicles MUST operate

Not necessarily. There are tests ongoing with ionic liquids which would allow refueling of batteries just like we refuel cars now (with the difference that the spent ionic liquid has to be first sucked out - to be recharged at the station)
Callippo
1 / 5 (9) Feb 11, 2012
coating a nanotube in nitrocellulose fuel and igniting one end
Let say, the energy density of nitrocelulose will correspond those of TNT (4.6 MJ per kilogram). Energy density of lithium air battery is 9 MJ per kilogram. http://en.wikiped..._density How the mixture of nanotubes and nitrocellulose could outperform the lithium battery in energy production? In addition, once the burning of nitrocellulose will start, the electricity output cannot be controlled, and the generator is not rechargeable. A simple thermoelectric generator powered with gasoline (47.2 MJ per kilogram) would produce ten-times more energy, while still providing a much better control of power output.
baudrunner
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 11, 2012
The team was working on measuring the acceleration of a chemical reaction along a nanotube when they discovered that the reaction generated power
You see, that's exactly why I read this site.

Every chemical reaction accelerates. Therein lies the reason that everything in existence continues to perpetuate. Now, if we can can just harness that energy of acceleration... and there you go, you see? .. just beautiful. WHAT DISCOVERY??
Callippo
1.3 / 5 (14) Feb 11, 2012
Nitrocellulose as a breakthrough in energy storage and generation? This principle is interesting as such, but useless with respect to accumulation of energy, production the less. Let say, the energy density of nitrocellulose will correspond those of TNT (4.6 MJ per kilogram). Energy density of lithium air battery is 9 MJ per kilogram. http://en.wikiped..._density How the mixture of nanotubes and nitrocellulose could outperform the lithium battery in energy production? In addition, once the burning of nitrocellulose will start, the electricity output cannot be controlled, and the generator is not rechargeable. A simple thermoelectric generator powered with gasoline (47.2 MJ per kilogram) would produce ten-times more energy while still providing a much better control of power output. This headline just parasites on energetic crisis.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (10) Feb 11, 2012
Every chemical reaction accelerates.

No. Read a chemistry textbook before posting such idiocy.
jscroft
1.7 / 5 (20) Feb 11, 2012
Every chemical reaction accelerates.

No. Read a chemistry textbook before posting such idiocy.


No. Read an etiquette manual before posting such rudeness.
antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (19) Feb 11, 2012
Not really. I will call an idiot an idiot whenever he shows that he's an idiot. Just tired of these self proclaimed Eisteins with not even an elementary school understanding of science posting stuff they think is profound.

It's just so enormously exasperating.
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 11, 2012
Unless there is some unknown force or reaction involved, it should have been labelled as "New Catalyst" instead of "New Energy Source".
WhiteJim
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 11, 2012
all energy and power distribution should be in the form of electricity. This can be by cable, wireless and battery... It is 100% clean and non-polluting in its own rigth. Generating the electricity (and power) can then be done in plants where any fuels used can be used with as little pollution as possible by controlling the combustion.
Lurker2358
2.1 / 5 (11) Feb 11, 2012
Here's a link to Rossi's latest claims on the e-cat.

ecat.com/news/ecat-com-interviews-andrea-rossi-about-e-cat-prices-and-warranties

he's claiming a payback period of as little as 1 year for the 1MW unit now, and claims that the maintenance and recharge of the small units will be "a few tens of dollars" per charge!

journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=580&cpage=2#comments

Andrea Rossi
February 8th, 2012 at 6:04 PM
Dear Tim:
It is easy to obtain with a by-pass. In seconds the E-Cat can be by-passed, if you need a fast decrease of heat exchange.
Warm Regards,
A.R

He's now claiming to be starting a factory in the U.S.

I suppose that it can't be a hoax, because if it is, he will eventually be exposed and prosecuted.

P.S.

Same argument as before...

You don't need to know everything about a reaction in order for it to be useful.

If it really works, it really works, and we'll use it.

Let somebody else figure out why it works later...
PosterusNeticus
3.6 / 5 (20) Feb 11, 2012
Here's a link to Rossi's latest claims on the e-cat.


We already know how it works. The process converts snake oil into bullsh*t, producing a vapor that causes hallucinations in people who lack a basic understanding of physics, thereby causing them to believe that the device can actually work as claimed.
Lurker2358
1.4 / 5 (11) Feb 11, 2012
How stupid is that?

if Rossi is smart enough to hold the credentials and position he currently has, then he's smart enough to know he could not possibly get away with a hoax beyond the first hour of an commercially or residentially owned e-cat going into operation, since it would be obviously fraudulent as soon as it fails to make power.

Therefore, he would know that he would get caught and go to prison immediately if it was ahoax.

I'm not vouching for him, but Rossi does not accept 'startup money' from anyone, and on his site has even publicly refused money.

So what the hell is his motive if it's a hoax? Since anyone smart enough to be in his position would know they could not get away with a hoax and woudl go to jail for a very long time.

The U.S. navy was even in on the last round of testing, and even they couldn't disprove it.

It's not like a stocks or paperwork scam. Since it's a physical product, you can't fake it indefinitely. He'd get caught right away.
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (12) Feb 11, 2012
The U.S. government spends a million dollars just to study cow farts. LOL.

You telling me they can't just given Rossi a patent, and offer him a million dollars to buy a few dozen modules, with the condition half up front, half after testing?

NIST could then test the thing every way imaginable. If it works, pay Rossi the other 50%. If it does not work, worst case scenario they can sue Rossi for the money back.

They give patents on toy guns and ninja turtles.

Heck, patenting this to protect his rights, and then testing it to help him prove it works would be one of the best investments in modern times.
Lurker2358
1.6 / 5 (16) Feb 11, 2012
I'm rooting for Rossi and the E-cat for several reasons.

Firstly, the energy crisis and humanitarian applications. It ushers in a new era of history.

Secondly, it would make a revolution in the way that we think about energy and matter, and possibly break open a whole new realm of thought about cosmology, stars, planets, neutron stars, black holes, etc.

Third, space exploration and colonization.

Fourth, all of the ultra-conservative mainstream physicists will have egg on their faces from the way they mistreated and marginalized the alternative energy thinkers.

fifth, there would need to be a fundamental revolution in interpretation of Scientific Method and the Peer Review process, since it will have failed utterly in this case, having greatly hindered learning and advancement in this realm of research.

Sixth, the forum mafia might learn a lesson.

Seventh, some of you fools might finally learn the difference between "natures real laws" and "man's models".
MorituriMax
3.5 / 5 (14) Feb 11, 2012
Every chemical reaction accelerates.

No. Read a chemistry textbook before posting such idiocy.


No. Read an etiquette manual before posting such rudeness.

When physorg gives us a way to 0-star posts we'll think about being courteous towards idiots.
MorituriMax
1 / 5 (3) Feb 11, 2012
Lurker2358
How stupid is that?
Try posting under your real name Rossi.
PosterusNeticus
2.5 / 5 (8) Feb 11, 2012
How stupid is that?


The e-catp*ss? Oh it's incredibly stupid. Still, a few people fall for it. A few people always do. PT Barnum knew that, and said it best: there's a sucker born every minute.
Lurker2358
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 11, 2012
Lurker2358
How stupid is that?
Try posting under your real name Rossi.


Ok, I'm definitely not Rossi.

I'm just an enthusiast of the extraordinary and maximizing human potential.

Rossi is like twice my age.
Lurker2358
1 / 5 (6) Feb 11, 2012
How stupid is that?


The e-catp*ss? Oh it's incredibly stupid. Still, a few people fall for it. A few people always do. PT Barnum knew that, and said it best: there's a sucker born every minute.


Big Oil knows the Wizard's First Rule as well man.

"People are stupid. They'll believe anything you want them to believe, either because they want to believe it, or because they're afraid it might be true." - Wizard's First Rule.

Ok, so Goodkind was right.

The oil and coal companies also don't want you to believe wind and solar work either, so they spend tons of money on ads trying to convince you of this idea.
Callippo
1 / 5 (10) Feb 12, 2012
Rossi is right not because of his promises, but because the cold fusion is supported with MIT and NASA. Latest ICCF-10 demonstration made at Cambridge provided ten-fold excess of input energy during five days.

http://world.std....emo.html

It's reprehensible, that the elite of physicists is wasting money of tax payers in search of useless Higgs boson and gravitational waves in the underground - whereas the cold fusion research is ignored for twenty years. This situation is supported with layman society, who is willing to go into nuclear war with Iran, instead of investments into cold fusion research.
Husky
5 / 5 (5) Feb 12, 2012
next time Rossi better not use the ground cable to feed power to the device
Lurker2358
1.7 / 5 (12) Feb 12, 2012
next time Rossi better not use the ground cable to feed power to the device


That wasn't proven.

You are quoting a speculation that was offered by another skeptic.

You realize accusing someone like that without evidence in a public forum is slander/libel?
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 12, 2012
Rossi claims:

"The amount of hydrogen we charge is enormously redundant: Only picograms of H react, so that when we charge the reactors most of the H goes away with the purge." - Rossi.

ecat.com/news/1mw-power-plants-now-with-reduced-price-to-reflect-new-technological-breakthroughs

Which is in line with the theoretical calculations of what should be happening.

This is why a single charge would last for 6 months (of usage, not calendar time) before the fuel degrades.

http://ecat.com/n...d-fusion

There he makes a direct claim to detecting 500KeV Gamma, which is caused by positron-electron annihilation. I assume this detection was done with lower shielding. But he says this is not the primary source of the energy, which is also in keeping with the calculations done in the original patent application. This is about 1% to maybe 10% of the net energy gain.
Kevin Smith
not rated yet Feb 12, 2012
I wonder if this would be a good way to power an electromagnetic pulse [EMP] type of weapon; or perhaps the detonators in an implosion-type thermonuclear device?
Lurker2358
2.1 / 5 (11) Feb 12, 2012
LOL. NASA thinks there's something to LENR.

technologygateway.nasa.gov/media/CC/lenr/lenr.html

and

Actual patent applicaton.

patentstorm.us/applications/20110255645/description.html
Lurker2358
1.9 / 5 (9) Feb 12, 2012
And in case you think the third party site's mention of the NASA video and patent are fake, look here.

tfaws.nasa.gov/TFAWS11/Speakers.html

"The body of evidence strongly suggest that the LENR effect is real, increasingly understood, and most recently, may actually be useful." - Joe Zawodny
Basicly, go to NASA's home page and search "LENR".
Lurker2358
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 12, 2012
This is a video of the E-cat on youtube.

youtube.com/watch?v=gNhQIufkdL4

The amount of steam pressure there at the end is definitely similar to a 10kw to 12kw boiler, hell it may even be more than that.
axemaster
5 / 5 (7) Feb 12, 2012
The U.S. government spends a million dollars just to study cow farts. LOL.

Do you realize just how small 1 million dollars is? It's effectively nothing. Moreover, bovine flatulence is the biggest source of methane in Earth's atmosphere. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. So yeah, studying it is pretty darn important. And you need to go read some books.
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 12, 2012
The U.S. government spends a million dollars just to study cow farts. LOL.

Do you realize just how small 1 million dollars is? It's effectively nothing. Moreover, bovine flatulence is the biggest source of methane in Earth's atmosphere. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. So yeah, studying it is pretty darn important. And you need to go read some books.


I KNOW how small 1 million dollars is. duh.

That was the point of the post.

A million dollars to buy some e-cats from Rossi and test them is chump changes to the government.

That's the point I was making.

they waste that much on a new statue for a monument or a museum or some other BS every year.

We donate 1.5 BILLION, with a B, to Egypt every year.

So you got my point so clearly that you somehow managed to MISS the point...
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (17) Feb 12, 2012
I don't think you'd want this power source in your car, or anywhere near you, if it was scaled up to contain enough power to be relevant for everyday purposes. Why? Did anyone else notice that it is based on the combustion of nitrocellulose? For those of you who don't know, nitrocellulose is also known as gun cotton, and it is extremely flammable. Explosively so in fact.
"a pile of uncontained nitrocellulose will burn slowly, with a high, bright flame"

-It was also used for motion picture film until 1951. Gasoline is far more dangerous. Research a little before you post.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (20) Feb 12, 2012
Every chemical reaction accelerates.

No. Read a chemistry textbook before posting such idiocy.


No. Read an etiquette manual before posting such rudeness.
It is extremely rude to waste peoples time by posting bullshit that they have to go and look up themselves to confirm what they suspected, that it is in fact bullshit.

Laziness is rude dont you think?

Also, all you lazy ecat detractors do a little research before you parrot or ape or crow or sheeple or whatever. Rossi may have something. Lots of credible people think so.
baudrunner
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 12, 2012
Who can come up with a chemical reaction which slows down over time? No fair inferring same when reactants deplete.
Skepticus
1 / 5 (2) Feb 12, 2012
Perhaps someone will substitute nitrocellulose with other gaseous fuels. By controlling its injection rate/amount and replicate the traveling combustion waves along the nanotubes arrays to achieve the same power generation effect, then the problem with irreversible one-time power generation will be gone, and uninterupted, on demand, controlled power generation will be possible.
PosterusNeticus
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 12, 2012
Also, all you lazy ecat detractors do a little research before you parrot or ape or crow or sheeple or whatever. Rossi may have something. Lots of credible people think so.


Direct me to the peer-reviewed papers published in respectable journals. I can save you some time by telling you that the count is precisely zero. I can save you even more time by accurately predicting the response: "blah blah blah global conspiracy, blah blah nonsensical unrealistic paranoia that only makes sense to loonies and crackpot lovers, blah blah."

That about sums it up.
kaasinees
1 / 5 (3) Feb 12, 2012
Sorry but this is years old news, to lazy to find it atm.
Callippo
1 / 5 (7) Feb 12, 2012
Direct me to the peer-reviewed papers published in respectable journals
This is just an evidence of cold fusion ignorance with mainstream physics, it never checked it in peer-reviewed press. http://newenergyt...rs.shtml http://nickelpowe...-30-2011

Who is responsible for it? How to avoid this situation in future?
Callippo
1 / 5 (6) Feb 12, 2012
Roland Benanbou have gathered example of denial in well know affairs :
http://www.prince...0fin.pdf (funny reading)

and he us that exmaple to support his "collective dellusion" model :
http://www.prince...aper.pdf
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (20) Feb 12, 2012
@posteriornetticus

What makes you think peer-reviewed papers are our only source of encouragement?
http://www.freere...58/posts
http://en.wikiped...#Ongoing
http://blog.newen...-theory/
http://newenergyt...ry.shtml

-Or you could try directing yourself-
https://www.googl...ie=UTF-8
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (19) Feb 12, 2012
The people at blacklight power do seem to be excited about something...
http://coldfusion...-part-1/

And hey - billionaire sidney kimmel is giving almost 6 USD to cold fusion research
http://www.freere...16/posts
PosterusNeticus
2.7 / 5 (7) Feb 12, 2012
Who is responsible for it? How to avoid this situation in future?


Why would we avoid it? The fact that actual science journals refused to publish the man's nonsense is proof that the process is working correctly.
Callippo
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 13, 2012
actual science journals refused to publish the man's nonsense
NASA is dealing with this nonsense seriously. http://www.grc.na...2011.pdf
The CERN Colloquium will organize a conference dedicated to cold fusion http://indico.cer...d=177379
tadchem
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 13, 2012
With the EPA doing everything in its power to identify nanotubes as environmentally hazardous materials, this concept is DOA.
jscroft
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 13, 2012
Not really. I will call an idiot an idiot whenever he shows that he's an idiot. Just tired of these self proclaimed Eisteins with not even an elementary school understanding of science posting stuff they think is profound.

It's just so enormously exasperating.


So get over it.

Personally, I'd much rather politely humor the occasional well-meaning crank than endure endless ad hominem screeching by "tards" (right, Scott ol' buddy?) who mistake conviction for analysis and whose primary conviction is that everybody around them is an idiot.

Maybe the guy really is a fool. Or maybe he's just speaking a fourth language. All I'm saying is, when you go straight for the throat and don't even TRY to field his argument, the only person who looks like a jacka$$ is YOU.
ghidon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 13, 2012

When physorg gives us a way to 0-star posts we'll think about being courteous towards idiots.


Or program some sort of internal counter
If you get 500 ratings of 1 you can't rate anything anymore
If you get 1000 ratings of 1 your account gets deleted
Callippo
2.6 / 5 (5) Feb 13, 2012
If you get 1000 ratings of 1 your account gets deleted
1000 ratings from different people - yes, but not from two voting trolls, who are using the same account and IP address. PO allows hundreds of accounts, which can be switched by their cookie easily and they enable to mass downvote everybody with single person here.
spaceagesoup
1 / 5 (3) Feb 13, 2012
actually - every chemical reaction does accelerate from a ground state; to a flux, and to a new ground state, of usually lower energy density and increased entropy. net energy is conserved in any considered system, but the fact that an event occurs (or series of events, as in macro-scale events like chemical reactions at measurable/"useful" quantities) requires there be something accelerating instantaneously at some considered point - an inevitable property of particle model thinking. this is required to tip the scales - the power behind power as it were. we tend to ignore or are blissfully unaware that these fringe elements have useable power.
antialias_physorg
3 / 5 (2) Feb 14, 2012
Or program some sort of internal counter
If you get 500 ratings of 1 you can't rate anything anymore
If you get 1000 ratings of 1 your account gets deleted

that wouldn't work. Zephyr/Calippo/rawa/etc. Has so many sockpuppets set up that he can switch forever. (Hint: Whenever you see the word 'cold fusion' in post it's one of his - to the point where he quotes/talks with himself to make it seem like there is more than one person who gives a damn)
Estevan57
2.3 / 5 (22) Feb 16, 2012
Please stop polluting the energy forums with the Rossi garbage. Almost every source of potential energy reported in this website gets the Rossi groupies in a "Not as good as the unproven one" frenzy.
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 17, 2012
...gets the Rossi groupies

There are no Rossi groupies. If you look at the posting style and words used you may notice: it's only one guy with multiple accounts.

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