Tapping into mine water for geothermal energy

Tapping into mine water for geothermal energy
Old mine tunnels, like ones under this hoist, are filled with water, which may be a valuable geothermal resource. Credit: Edward Louie

Millions of miles of tunnels criss-cross the ground under old mining communities across the United States. Abandoned, falling apart and choked with water, the tunnels are often viewed as a dangerous legacy. But the water in these mines could actually be a major geothermal resource.

Student researchers at Michigan Technological University have put together the first comprehensive guidebook communities can use to explore the feasibility of using mine water for to and cool buildings. While there is great potential for this resource, there are less than 30 active mine water geothermal systems in the world. One is at Michigan Tech's Keweenaw Research Center just north of Houghton, Michigan.

Design Local, Act National

The research team worked with the University's Keweenaw Research Center and community leaders in Calumet to understand the local potential. In fact, the idea for this project came from community members in Calumet, and especially Elmore Reese at Main Street Calumet.

The team will present its work to the public in Calumet, Mich., on April 6, in the atrium of the Calumet – Laurium – Keweenaw (CLK) School from 7 to 9 p.m. Community members can interact with a tabletop model showing how mine water geothermal works, calculate the distance from their own home to the nearest mine shaft and make approximate cost calculations for installation and pay-back, using a calculator tool. People of all ages are welcome.

The following week, April 11 to 13, the team will take its presentation to Washington, D.C., for the National Sustainable Design Expo, a student design competition supported by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The project is funded by a People, Prosperity and Planet (P3) grant through the EPA. The researchers will find out about a second round of funding at the expo.

Mine Water Geothermal

Michigan Tech graduate student Edward Louie spearheaded the project as part of his master's degree work in energy policy.

"With mine water, you can draw lots of heat from it without it cooling down," Louie says, explaining that the mine water in the Keweenaw stays around 53 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit year-round. These temperatures can then be used to heat or cool buildings using simple technology: mostly pipes, heat exchangers and heat pumps.

"A is simply a device that can move and concentrate heat with relatively little energy input," Louie says, adding the equipment has been around since the 1970s. "The efficiency of heat pumps has gotten better; their reliability has gotten better, but the technology itself is not from Star Trek."

Louie compares a to a refrigerator, which acts as a heat pump. The refrigerator compressor uses a little electricity to move a lot of heat, he explains. It concentrates the heat, moving it out the back, and puts the cold inside. "That's why the back of your fridge is warm ,and that's why your freezer is freezing cold."

In a geothermal heating system, the heat pump concentrates a relatively small amount of heat from the mine water, which remains much warmer than the winter outside air, into comfortable temperatures for heating a building. "It's like the back of the fridge is placed in your house," Louie says. "So, it's dumping the heat in a warmer form into your house."

For cooling, the heat pump works in reverse, dumping cooler air into the building. And for every unit of energy used to power the heat pump to do this exchange, the pump can move four—sometimes more—units of heat.

Geothermal systems are inherently flexible, depending on location and the quality of the mine water. In the Keweenaw, where pure copper was mined, the mine water is relatively clean. In other areas, mine water laden with heavy metals and acid corrodes equipment. For this reason, Louie and his team outline several open and closed loop systems in the mine water geothermal guidebook.

Closed loop systems help protect equipment from corrosive mine water by exchanging heat outside a loop of corrosion resistant pipes placed inside the mineshaft. The mine water itself is never pumped. In open loop systems, the mine water is pumped and makes contact with a metal heat exchanger. The advantage is increased efficiency and less piping, but the mine water has to be clean enough.

Keweenaw Research Center

At the Keweenaw Research Center (KRC), they pipe the mine water up from 300 feet below the surface. Through a big heat exchanger, the mine water cools or heats a closed loop system within the building.

"It's just like the radiator in your car," says Jay Meldrum, director of the Keweenaw Research Center. "The water always stays inside the pipes and is mixed with glycol so it doesn't freeze."

The water-glycol mix circulates and runs through 18 heat pumps throughout the center's main building. Meldrum says he hopes to expand geothermal on the site and is planning a new, smaller system in a separate building.

"We hope to use geothermal as an educational resource," he says. "It's also an area we want to continue doing research in."

With so few active systems, the KRC is a unique resource for people living in the region. Tapping into the mine water is also a tribute to the area's history, says Richelle Winkler, a sociology and demography researcher at Michigan Tech who works with Louie and Meldrum.

"Using the mine water for geothermal energy creates an opportunity to recast community identity," Winkler says, "which both celebrates the mining heritage and promotes progress forward in an environmentally sustainable way."

With so much room for expansion, the Keweenaw could become a hub for mine geothermal. And through the guidebook, Louie, Winkler and their collaborators could help shape a widespread environmental problem into a solution and resource.


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Class investigates tapping mines for geothermal heat in calumet

Citation: Tapping into mine water for geothermal energy (2015, April 3) retrieved 21 May 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2015-04-geothermal-energy.html
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Apr 03, 2015
"celebrates the mining heritage"?????

Too bad they could not put together a large system for the community, which could afford to treat the mine water, as well as extracting the heat.

Apr 03, 2015
While at PG&E, I tried to get homeowners and those putting in pools to consider using them as heat sinks. In the Summer, the heat from the house gets dumped into it to heat the pool and cool the house, and in the Winter it is covered and that heat is pumped back into the house.

That was in the late '80's, and we had little compatible equipment, and even less compatible consciousness.

Apr 03, 2015
You mean gas and coal were really cheap...Their motives are exactly the same as they have been for 20,000 years (I assume I am included as a Homo sapian despite being apparently rather different)

While at PG&E, I tried to get homeowners and those putting in pools to consider using them as heat sinks. In the Summer, the heat from the house gets dumped into it to heat the pool and cool the house, and in the Winter it is covered and that heat is pumped back into the house.

That was in the late '80's, and we had little compatible equipment, and even less compatible consciousness.


Apr 05, 2015
"celebrates the mining heritage"?????

Too bad they could not put together a large system for the community, which could afford to treat the mine water, as well as extracting the heat.


Too bad there are no programs in place to clean the water in 100,000,000 cu/km of impact crater breccia. Oh, but there is, nature's own fracking yields up petroleum, natural gas, CO2, and platinum group metals by the double fistfulls. Huzzah!

Apr 05, 2015
Oh, good, you can use all that money to clean up what corporations did.

Huzzah!


Apr 06, 2015
In the Summer, the heat from the house gets dumped into it to heat the pool and cool the house, and in the Winter it is covered and that heat is pumped back into the house.

That was in the late '80's, and we had little compatible equipment, and even less compatible consciousness.


Unless the pools were actually built as thermos bottles, the scheme you outlined wouldn't have worked anyways because the heat escapes over the months. A pool full of water is of course more effictive for a heatsink than air, but it seems you didn't think it all the way through.

For cooling, the heat pump works in reverse, dumping cooler air into the building. And for every unit of energy used to power the heat pump to do this exchange, the pump can move four—sometimes more—units of heat.


This is called the Coefficient of Power (CoP). The smaller the difference in temperature over the pump, the easier the heat flows, just like pumping water up a hill.

Apr 06, 2015
I remember reading a study done in Sweden about pumping heat into the ground underneath a house to recover it back in the winter. The trouble they discovered is that the heat doesn't stay put - it moves with the movement of ground water and rain water percolating through the soil - so it doesn't actually work unless you can drill the pipes into solid bedrock.

Similiarily, there's a constant exchange of water in an old mine - it's not a sealed bottle. The heat you pump in through the summer will be half a county away by winter, and that is why you can keep pumping heat out without cooling the mine. The water is being continuously replenished.

People have been doing the same trick sinking the heat exchanger pipes in lakes and rivers, because they always stay above +4 C (40 F) at the bottom.

Apr 06, 2015
and in the Winter it is covered and that heat is pumped back into the house.


Googling around, a pool cover only reduces the heat loss by half.

A good deal of the heat is lost through evaporation. Every gallon evaporated pulls 6000 BTU and a regular sized pool loses about an inch of water a week, losing you 3,000,000 BTU or about 900 kWh. The hotter the water, the faster it evaporates. Hence why swimming pools make for pretty damn poor heat batteries. It takes tons of energy just to keep them a couple degrees above ambient temperature.

Apr 06, 2015
No Eikka it is the Coefficient of Performance. It is new to you, isn't it?

Once again, a Wiki-Warrior is caught using big words which are unfamiliar to him.

It is an old concept, and the pool idea was not mine, but one already used and perfected. You should have looked closer.

You folk are not cool looking up minutiae on wiki you do not understand, and you continually make sophomoric errors that broadcast your real lack of knowledge.

Apr 06, 2015
While at PG&E, I tried to get homeowners and those putting in pools to consider using them as heat sinks. In the Summer, the heat from the house gets dumped into it to heat the pool and cool the house, and in the Winter it is covered and that heat is pumped back into the house.

That was in the late '80's, and we had little compatible equipment, and even less compatible consciousness.
So you tried to convince them even though there was a no way to do this and as Eikka pointed out it wouldn't have worked anyway. I wonder how many of them back then concluded you were full of shit? Jeez you didn't tell them you were an engineer did you? You could get arrested for that you know.

One more idiot idea to add to the list.
It is an old concept, and the pool idea was not mine, but one already used and perfected
And as usual you can't provide a reference. This is how we know its bullshit.

Apr 06, 2015
otto-wiki can't find the reference.

Hilarious.

Another defect in the theory of Wiki-Warriors.


Apr 07, 2015
otto-wiki can't find the reference.

Hilarious.

Another defect in the theory of Wiki-Warriors.

Translation: George looked it up and found out that otto and Eikka were right.

There is one company which sells equipment to heat swimming pools by using the heat from AC units. But that is a far cry from using them for AC.

Another magnificent fail by the guy who always wanted to be an engr but never was.

Apr 07, 2015
But that is a far cry from using them for AC.
------------------------------

But you do not really KNOW, do you? The A/C heat pump goes both ways.

You are like Eikka, still learning about Coefficients of Performance, and other HVAC terms. Shall we get to enthalpy? Go look that one up, Mister Stay-at-Home.


Apr 08, 2015
You are like Eikka, still learning about Coefficients of Performance, and other HVAC terms.


But you were never a HVAC engineer either.

But you do not really KNOW, do you? The A/C heat pump goes both ways.


Not really. You can't simply reverse the compressor to make a heat pump work backwards. The device needs to be built to be reversible. I know this because many of the air-air and ground-air heatpump units I see on the market are not, and because I've actually studied the subject for personal curiosity. They're very similiar to fridges.

I simply got the wrong word because Coefficient of Power is used in relation with wind turbines and I hear it a lot more often.

you continually make sophomoric errors that broadcast your real lack of knowledge.


Funny YOU should say that, since that's exactly what you do when questioned about subjects you should be intimately familiar with by your actual profession.

Tu quoque.

Apr 08, 2015

It is an old concept, and the pool idea was not mine, but one already used and perfected.


How can you perfect something which doesn't work?

An outdoors pool is not sufficiently thermally insulated to provide for heat storage. It may be cheaper to install an A/C system to heat the pool, but it simply does not work the way you described it because the water does not retain the heat for very long.

You took one thing and tried to sell it off to the readers as something else, and take credit for it again as usual, and moralize others for "not getting it".

You wanted to make us believe you were pioneering yet another modern concept, when in reality you didn't.

You should have looked closer.


The burden of proof is on you: if nobody finds the evidence because it doesn't exist, you may still claim "victory" by saying they didn't look hard enough. Therefore "look closer" is no argument at all!

Make a claim - prove it yourself. That's how it works.

Apr 08, 2015
Unless the pools were actually built as thermos bottles

Most lakes don't freeze down to the bottom - even during harsh winters. That's a lot of 'heat' left in the system that can be concentrated and moved about for heating purposes elsewhere. A top layer of ice is actually a pretty effective insulation as it completely eliminates convective/evaporative cooling - leaving just conduction (which is low in ice) and radiation. A mine filled with water could well hold an enormous amount of heat for distribution during cold months*

*though, personally, I find the use of mines as sites for pumped hydro storage more appealing. Most mines do have nearby places for lakes where the excavated materials was deposited.

Apr 08, 2015
Besides, exctracting geothermal heat out of a swimming pool in the winter is not a good idea.

When ground heatpumps are installed, the pipes are sunk preferrably below 6ft because the ground there remains closer to the annual mean temperature and thus keeps warmer through the winter. A pool is generally above 6ft and goes colder than the ground beneath it.

If possible, geothermal heatpumps are rather installed in vertical 100-500 ft deep drilled wells. Shallow horizontal loops are half the cost to install, but they're more affected by the seasonal temperature change, and the CoP gets worse and worse as the winter progresses.

So, it's a good idea to dump waste heat from the A/C into your pool, but a bad idea to try to pull it back out rather than drill a proper heating well or sink the coils deep.

Apr 08, 2015
Most lakes don't freeze down to the bottom - even during harsh winters.


That's because water is the densest at +4 C, so it sinks to the bottom and prevents the lake from freezing from the bottom up.

But this is a pro and a con, because the annual mean temperature, and so the temperature below 6-7 ft in the ground may be 10-13 degrees C while the very bottom of the lake will be just 4 C because of the density stratification.

A mine filled with water could well hold an enormous amount of heat for distribution during cold months*


But it won't because the mine is filled with groundwater seeping through the rock, like an underground river. It will carry the heat out of the mine.

Apr 08, 2015
For an interesting experiment, see: http://en.wikiped...ommunity


The Drake Landing Solar Community (DLSC) is a planned community in Okotoks, Alberta, Canada, equipped with a central solar heating system (...)

The solar energy is captured by 800 solar thermal collectors[2] located on the roofs of all 52 houses.[3] It is billed as the first solar powered subdivision in North America,[4] although its electricity and transportation needs are provided by conventional sources.

In 2012 the installation achieved a world record solar fraction of 97%; that is, providing that amount of the community's heating requirements with solar energy over a one-year time span.



The energy is stored directly in 144 boreholes at a central location. No heat pumps needed, as it remains at 40-50 C all year round.

This is what I'd call proper and effective use of renewable energy, as it directly addresses about 80% of the energy needs of a community.

Apr 08, 2015
But it won't because the mine is filled with groundwater seeping through the rock, like an underground river. It will carry the heat out of the mine.

As the pressure is evidently higher in the surrounding rock (otherwise you wouldn't get mines filling up with this) this looks like pure inflow without (much) outflow.

At about 50-100 meters depth you have a very stable temperature (almost always equal to year-average surface temperature) due to thermal inertia.
Below that mines actually tend to get warmer. Some of the deepest mines require air conditioning so that temperatures don't reach lethal levels for miners.
http://en.wikiped...ona_Mine

While not every place on Earth is suited for geothermal (steam) energy with realtively low bore depths you can get warm water anywhere (certainly at the depths of your average mine)

Apr 08, 2015
do not really KNOW, do you? The A/C heat pump goes both ways
Ah. I see that gkam didn't even bother to look it up, just assuming that because of his related experience changing tires on SR71s, whatever occurs to him must be true.

We DO know because we did research and read the facts. And this is how we know you DONT know.

Apr 08, 2015
As the pressure is evidently higher in the surrounding rock
This is a strange statement from someone who should apparently know better. Pressure is always higher below the water table. Look up 'hydrostatic pressure'.

Mines are usually in impermeable rock, and fissures are grouted to reduce leaks. The rest is pumped.

Apr 08, 2015
I suggest otto look into computing the COP of a large integrated system, then do a what-if, and duty-cycle one 40-hp fan on a cooling tower, and tell us the effects on the system's 1300 ton chiller, and whether it saves energy or not. The decision is site-specific.

Wiki will not tell you how to do that.

Apr 08, 2015
"because of his related experience changing tires on SR71s,"
--------------------------------------

Naw, I was a communications tech. What were you?

And did you know that there are stainless steel threads in the Blackbird tires? We had all three variants of the Blackbird at Eddie's. Shall I tell otto how to tell them apart?

Apr 08, 2015
I suggest otto look into computing the COP of a large integrated system, then do a what-if, and duty-cycle one 40-hp fan on a cooling tower, and tell us the effects on the system's 1300 ton chiller, and whether it saves energy or not. The decision is site-specific.

Wiki will not tell you how to do that.
And what the hell does this have to do with either the thread or your comments on pool sinks?? You think that throwing out random facts makes your previous ignorance any less so?

When you tell tales of your alleged experience here, people laugh at you. When you try to use these tales to justify comments which are just WRONG, and easily proven so, you just piss people off.

WHY are you too stupid to realize this??
Naw, I was a communications tech
Ah. So you changed burned out tubes in old radar sets.
What were you?
Irrelevant you moron. WHY cant you understand this?

Apr 08, 2015
"Mines are usually in impermeable rock, and fissures are grouted to reduce leaks. The rest is pumped." - Otto

What an amazingly stupid thing to say.

"Millions of miles of tunnels criss-cross the ground under old mining communities across the United States. Abandoned, falling apart and choked with water.."

First line of the article. Next time read it.. Or at least look up something about mines.


Apr 08, 2015
otto thinks we communicate using "radar sets" in the service.

Those stay-at-home "patriots" are a real laugh.

"Whip that APS-32!"

Apr 08, 2015
Why hello mealy little Pudel
First line of the article. Next time read it.. Or at least look up something about mines
I always do you know
https://books.goo...;f=false

-You should stick to 1/5-ing me. Really hard. With your dick in your hand. At least youll get some sort of gratification that way.

Apr 08, 2015
Somebody tell Garbage Mouth the word is "poodle", like Blair with Dubya Bush.

Apr 08, 2015
Somebody tell Garbage Mouth the word is "poodle", like Blair with Dubya Bush.
Stevie knows full well the kind of doggie otto is referring to. Right steve?

Apr 08, 2015
"But there is certainly plenty of that. I was making fun of mr. wolf by copying what he put on his profile. I commonly do this because it is funny. Moreover I have many sockpuppets left over from former glorious battles, all (most) of which include 'otto' in their nicks. I resurrect these from time to time."
--------------------------------------------

Confessions of otto the Pathetic.

Apr 09, 2015
Cross posting is against site guidelines and would have also gotten you banned in earlier times.

"I don't have any training or degree or professional experience as an engineer but I reserve the right to call myself one because I once held a job shop position or 2 with that title. Which means, I can assure you, that swimming pools can be used to cool houses, and also that thorium reactor research is being abandoned worldwide."
--------------------------------------------

Confessions of a bullshit artiste.

Apr 09, 2015
The goober calling himself "otto" had admitted being a phony, a lurker with several pseudonyms, a liar, here for stirring things up. His filthy language is not in the spirit of science, but from his own lack of manners, honor, and dominated by a diseased psychology.

This is a science forum. We have to get rid of these snipers if we are to get any response from serious posters.

Apr 09, 2015
The goober calling himself "otto" had admitted being a phony, a lurker with several pseudonyms
Only for comedic effect little Pudel. But you're pretty serious about convincing people that you're an engineer which, by your own admission, you're not. And you don't know what an engineer knows nor do you think like an engr which many here including aa and eikke have pointed out.
This is a science forum
-and so people who make up their own science and claim that they're engrs when they're obviously not, shouldn't be tolerated.

Like I said I won't let up.

Apr 09, 2015
otto: "Moreover I have many sockpuppets left over from former glorious battles, all (most) of which include 'otto' in their nicks. I resurrect these from time to time."
----------------------------------------------

The admission of a chronic liar.

What kind of psychology drives these loners to perpetrate these acts of adolescent vandalism?

How do we get them off this forum?

Apr 09, 2015
What kind of psychology drives these loners to perpetrate these acts of adolescent vandalism
What sort of stunted personality would make up stuff like;

HIGH ENERGY alpha cant penetrate skin.

Fallout is the MAJOR cause of lung cancer (not even on the list)

Fukushima H2 explosions can cause Pu nuclear detonations which throw macroscopic vessel parts 130km without making a crater.

There is plutonium or americium raining down on idaho.

Swimming pools can be used to cool your house.

-and then claim to know that they're true because of his experience?

They're not true george. And because you can't tell the difference between truth and your imagination, perhaps you shouldn't be posting here.

PS lots of people have used sockpuppets in the past. I like to use mine from time to time for a laugh. You don't know how to laugh You don't think the guy who claimed that only 1 scientist ever concluded that the next ice age is imminent, isn't pretty funny?

Apr 09, 2015
Too late to kiss up now, otto.

We have to get you off this forum, . . and your pathetic sock puppets. It has no place for the rude and filthy sniping of others.

" "Moreover I have many sockpuppets left over from former glorious battles,"

There is no room for liars here, otto. I identified myself, and you checked me out, and you lost your arguments.

Now you are self-revealed as a cowardly sniper, a goober who hides under pseudonyms and takes disgusting shots at those with educations and experience of which you have no idea.

"glorious battles"???

What an adolescent!

and your pathetic sockpuppets
Perhaps the problem is that george doesn't like dogs? Did you really make up all that poop in ottos post? Bad doggie. Even I learned not to crap in the house when I was just a pup.

H2 explosions and Pu prompt criticalities? Fallout and lung cancer??? What have you got to say for yourself?????

Apr 09, 2015
Another otto pseudonym?

Please take your adolescent games elsewhere. The school website, perhaps.

This thread is about using mine water as a sink for heat for community heating. Yes, it is beyond your technical understanding, but you will have plenty of silly juvenile responses.

Meanwhile, it is important to note, few mines are not ruined by acidification and heavy metals.

Apr 09, 2015
This thread is about using mine water as a sink for heat for community heating
-So why'd you post THIS bullshit;
While at PG&E, I tried to get homeowners and those putting in pools to consider using them as heat sinks
-which only a little research proved that it wouldnt work -?
Yes, it is beyond your technical understanding
-Well apparently its beyond yours as well, because you got it WRONG. According to real experts at bonafide websites that is.

And what does
I suggest otto look into computing the COP of a large integrated system, then do a what-if, and duty-cycle one 40-hp fan on a cooling tower, and tell us the effects on the system's 1300 ton chiller, and whether it saves energy or not. The decision is site-specific
-have to do with the thread either? Come on admit it - you just added this because, as usual, you think this sort of unrelated dazzle somehow makes your bullshit less wrong.

It doesnt. Backyard pools cant be used as A/C heat sinks.

Apr 09, 2015
Meanwhile, it is important to note, few mines are not ruined by acidification and heavy metals
It is also important to note that some posters here think that reading the article is optional.

"Closed loop systems help protect equipment from corrosive mine water by exchanging heat outside a loop of corrosion resistant pipes placed inside the mineshaft."

-George: "I'll interject a random fact here to maintain my scholarly image and obvious focus on the subject."

-Even back in grade school we called this bullshit.

Apr 09, 2015
Yeah, a filthy mouth, . . even in grade school. I'll bet you were smarter than ALL your teachers, huh?

Apr 09, 2015
Yeah, a filthy mouth, . . even in grade school. I'll bet you were smarter than ALL your teachers, huh?
You have a funny idea of filthy. THIS is filthy:

"HIGH ENERGY alpha cant penetrate skin.

Fallout is the MAJOR cause of lung cancer (not even on the list)

Fukushima H2 explosions can cause Pu nuclear detonations which throw macroscopic vessel parts 130km without making a crater.

There is plutonium or americium raining down on idaho.

Swimming pools can be used to cool your house.

Only 1 scientist ever concluded that the next ice age is imminent.

Homeowners and those putting in pools should consider using them as heat sinks for A/C

... And then claiming to know that they're all true because of his experience?"

-And we have to step in it nearly every day.

Apr 09, 2015
Will we never be out of the reach of the verbal vandals? otto here distorts my words and sometimes attributes those he copies as mine, and keeps hurling the distortions back at me. It's because I proved who I am, and he is still some adolescent playing games with pseudonyms.

This is a science site, and we deserve better.

How do we get the vandals off the site? Who runs this?

Apr 10, 2015
Will we never be out of the reach of the verbal vandals? otto here distorts my words and sometimes attributes those he copies as mine, and keeps hurling the distortions back at me. It's because I proved who I am, and he is still some adolescent playing games with pseudonyms.

This is a science site, and we deserve better.

How do we get the vandals off the site? Who runs this?
Vandals are people who post crap like those I listed above. Vandals post 60-70 one-line posts a day.

You can't win this gkam. You continue to post made-up, easily-disproven crap every day, and cite your 'experience' as your right to do so without being questioned.

Your crap will continue to be debunked and you will continue to be exposed, EVERY DAY. Is that clear?

Apr 10, 2015
otto, you are a self-admitted liar, one who plays games here, instead of debating the points in science. You resent those with more education and experience than you, who apparently spent his entire life at Mommy's.

You exposed nothing but your unbelievable ignorance of how things work. A Wiki-warrior, you do not even understand the points you cut and paste, often making my points for me.

I identified myself, proved I am real, but you are still a cowardly sniper.


Apr 10, 2015
debating the points in science
So debate these points:

"HIGH ENERGY alpha cant penetrate skin.

Fallout is the MAJOR cause of lung cancer (not even on the list)

Fukushima H2 explosions can cause Pu nuclear detonations which throw macroscopic vessel parts 130km without making a crater.

There is plutonium or americium raining down on idaho.

Swimming pools can be used to cool your house.

Only 1 scientist ever concluded that the next ice age is imminent.

Homeowners and those putting in pools should consider using them as heat sinks for A/C
unbelievable ignorance of how things work
So explain how swimming pools can be used to cool houses.
I identified myself, proved I am real
Yeah, youre the real guy who thinks he can post tripe about fallout being the MAIN cause of lung cancer, and get away with it.

We're not going to let you do that.

Apr 10, 2015
"So explain how swimming pools can be used to cool houses."
------------------------------------

How can you be so stupid? We use them at sinks for the heat of the house A/C, with refrigerant to water heat exchangers. It heats your pool and cools your house. Do you understand how it works, or are just now reading about heat pumps and coefficients of performance?

Apr 10, 2015
For otto and his sock-pupperty: I said alpha particles, Helium nuclei, do not penetrate the skin, and are deadly when inhaled or otherwise ingested, where no epidermis exists for protection. The 5.4 Million electron Volt particle does great damage to sensitive tissue. You found out that in operating nuclear reactors 1% or 0.1% can be "high-energy" Alpha which can penetrate skin. I reminded you not many people are in operating reactors. You then started inventing who said what, in your panic to discredit someone who has more knowledge than you do.

I related how one scientist admitted starting the Ice Age scares in the 1970's with an article musing on long-term consequences of short-term conditions, and you asserted I said he was the only one who said it.

Who are YOU?

Apr 13, 2015
From a thread where gkam figures no one would be privy to the facts presented in this one, he offers:
Okay, here is a quick calculation:
a pool 16 X 50 X 6 ft holds 4,800 ft3, or 300,000 lbs of H2O.

A 15-degree delta-T gives us 4.5 million Btu, divided by 12,000 Btu/ton-hour, reveals we have 375 ton-hours of A/C available in that pool. That is heat you do not have to pay for heating the pool. And you can get much of it back in Winter
-and ignoring Eikkas argument above:
A good deal of the heat is lost through evaporation. Every gallon evaporated pulls 6000 BTU and a regular sized pool loses about an inch of water a week, losing you 3,000,000 BTU or about 900 kWh. The hotter the water, the faster it evaporates. Hence why swimming pools make for pretty damn poor heat batteries. It takes tons of energy just to keep them a couple degrees above ambient temperature
But gkam needs to finish. How hot is the water after you use it for 375 ton-hours of A/C??

Apr 13, 2015
I said alpha particles, Helium nuclei, do not penetrate the skin
No, you said HIGH ENERGY alpha. Which you were ignorant of. Which easily penetrate the skin. Which is why there is shielding around reactors. And which youve been reminded of time and again, and which you continue to lie about.
You found out that in operating nuclear reactors 1% or 0.1% can be "high-energy" Alpha which can penetrate skin
Correct. This is HIGH ENERGY alpha. You used the term HIGH ENERGY alpha because youre compelled to exaggerate to impress people, which after all is pretty pathetic. If you didnt know what it was, you shouldnt have USED the term.
Who are YOU?
Im the guy who exposes your pathetic lies, every day. Like this one:
I related how one scientist admitted starting the Ice Age scares in the 1970's
No, you said only one scientist ever predicted the coming ice age. Thats what you SAID george _the_wizard.

Apr 13, 2015
Back on april 10 (4 posts above) gkam said:
We use them at sinks for the heat of the house A/C, with refrigerant to water heat exchangers. It heats your pool and cools your house. Do you understand how it works, or are just now reading about heat pumps and coefficients of performance?
-and Ive got to ask... whos 'we'? Do you work for the one company who supposedly offers these systems on their website without any performance specs, design details, customer testimony, installation examples, etcetcetc?

Or were you implying some sort of widespread industry that has 1000s of pool heat sink systems in operation across the US because it was such a useful money-saving idea?

Apr 13, 2015
Re HIGH ENERGY alpha, heres your original post:

This guy has no idea whatever, and is probably the guy otto was looking for, . . the fake. The epidermis stops Alpha particles,even the high-energy ones. Sensitive internal tissue without the epidermis cannot.
Youll note there are no qualifiers about helium nuclei or reactors; you added these on in subsequent arguments after you had looked up the term 'HIGH ENERGY alpha' and learned what it meant.

George. Its easy. Just present a valid reference which says that HIGH ENERGY alpha of some sort cannot penetrate skin. You must have had some object in mind when you used the term, yes?? JUST POST IT.

I can imagine you developed this method of throwing uncorroborated factoids around with little chance that youd be found out. This may have worked for you at home and in the workplace.

But we have the internet now, full of easily-accessible FACTS documented by genuine experts. Your system is obsolete and deserves to die.

Apr 13, 2015
Give it up, otto. You lost when you said I was never in the Air Force, until I showed you I was Airman of the Month for the entire Air Force Flight Test Center. You whined I was not a Vietnam Vet until I showed you my picture in the official web sites.

You are nobody, hiding behind a series of pseudonyms, as you admitted, playing your "games".

Apr 13, 2015
Give it up, otto. You lost when you said I was never in the Air Force
Uh what does that have to do with HIGH ENERGY alpha?
You are nobody
Well this could be true, but I do know that

1) your pool idea would probably make for an unusable pool and

2) you didnt know what HIGH ENERGY alpha was when you used the term, and

3) being mr. Airman of the Month for the entire Air Force Flight Test Center doesnt make you any less WRONG about either of these, and

4) claiming that it does, is PATHETIC in anyones mind. Except yours. My god, a senile old man saying his judgment is unquestionable because he was Vacuum Tube Changer of the Month 40 years ago. How TRAGIC.

Apr 13, 2015
A 15-degree delta-T gives us 4.5 million Btu, divided by 12,000 Btu/ton-hour, reveals we have 375 ton-hours of A/C available in that pool
Calculate HOW HOT the water would be. Finish your work.

Apr 13, 2015
Otto, you are REALLY ignorant and stupid, too. I gave you the heat content assuming a delta-T of 15 F.

You do not even know what that means????

Apr 13, 2015
Otto, you are REALLY ignorant and stupid, too. I gave you the heat content assuming a delta-T of 15 F.

You do not even know what that means????
Why would you assume that? You left out a whole list of parameters including heat loss or gain from the ground, solar, evaporation, etc.

But youre right Im not an expert and shouldnt be attempting to argue. Eikka seems to know what hes talking about. Why dont you refute what he said? Which was
A good deal of the heat is lost through evaporation. Every gallon evaporated pulls 6000 BTU and a regular sized pool loses about an inch of water a week, losing you 3,000,000 BTU or about 900 kWh. The hotter the water, the faster it evaporates. Hence why swimming pools make for pretty damn poor heat batteries.
My side of the argument was that these arent being used which indicates that they dont work.

Apr 13, 2015
Hey I found a real engineer who has actually studied this. Maybe he can help you out.
https://www.linke...9/953/77

-I think hes claiming 30% reduction. But you would need to figure in installation and lifecycle costs to find out why they arent being used.

Apr 13, 2015
Delta-T means a change in temperature of fifteen degrees. You see, otto, a pound of water uses one Btu to rise one degree F.

Do I have to explain the 12,000 Btu/ton, too?

Apr 14, 2015
Delta-T means a change in temperature of fifteen degrees. You see, otto, a pound of water uses one Btu to rise one degree F.

Do I have to explain the 12,000 Btu/ton, too?
Well I could look it up like you had to look up HIGH ENERGY alpha to know what it meant. Like I said you need to argue this with the original person who shot you down. I'm not the kind of person who pretends to know what he doesn't.

You are.

You do need to explain the evidence I presented, that these systems aren't in general use. The obvious reason is that they are a waste of money.

Eikka gave you some reasons why this is probably true. It was certainly true back when you were playing engr and recommending it to innocent customers.

Why don't you calculate energy use and cost of pool heat sinks vs solar panels on the roof used to augment A/C? I wonder which one makes more sense?

Apr 14, 2015
And it's certainly obvious to me that you don't know what maintaining your delta-T would require, as you failed to take into account all the environmental factors which would affect it. If you had read the study I posted (you didn't) you would have noticed that efficiency decreases as temp rises. So does the discomfort of swimmers.

Apr 14, 2015
otto, are you completely uneducated? Not very smart? Wow, the amount of heat transferred changes with the Delta-T!!! Who would have guessed? Look up heat transfer.

otto, you do not get it, I have really done all this and you have no idea how it even works.

I told you that evaporating a cubic fool of waster is equivalent to over 5 ton hours of air conditioning, but you did not understand it. We use these rules of thumb to assess situations, otto. There are scores of them, all put together by us professionals in the field to do the quick assessments before the serious ones. You cannot eve do that.

Apr 14, 2015
"Why don't you calculate energy use and cost of pool heat sinks vs solar panels on the roof used to augment A/C? I wonder which one makes more sense?"
---------------------------------------
'
Now, you are talking like an engineer, looking for alternatives, comparing efficiencies and efficacies, finding systems which use waste as feedstocks, cascading the efficacy to synergy.

What do you want to save more of, . . . energy or money? I can do the calcs. Want to know how to do it?

Apr 14, 2015
the amount of heat transferred changes with the Delta-T!!! Who would have guessed?
Well, YOU would have guessed. The engineer I linked actually did the work.
Look up heat transfer
Eikka explained this all to you:
A good deal of the heat is lost through evaporation. Every gallon evaporated pulls 6000 BTU and a regular sized pool loses about an inch of water a week, losing you 3,000,000 BTU or about 900 kWh. The hotter the water, the faster it evaporates. Hence why swimming pools make for pretty damn poor heat batteries. It takes tons of energy just to keep them a couple degrees above ambient temperature
-and he explained why nobodys using these systems.
Now, you are talking like an engineer
How would you know? Youre no engineer, and from what Ive seen you have no respect for them.

Apr 14, 2015
Do the calculations regarding the pool and prove me wrong. Eikka looked up some stuff he has never worked with and you bought it. In fact, it reinforced my assertion of cooling your house with the pool, since it raised the evaporation rate.

You are so into hurting others, you have lost all sense of reality and proportion. Stop mischaracterizing my posts so you can try to refute them, using wiki and words and concepts with of you have no knowledge.

Get off your fascination with me, otto. Go get your own life.

Apr 14, 2015
"Backyard pools cant be used as A/C heat sinks."
---------------------------------------

What was that number, . . 375 ton-hours of air conditioning just for a 15F Delta-T?

You continue to mischaracterize both your and my responses, in your frantic attempt to smear me. Instead, read and learn, otto. Did your parents teach you nothing?

Apr 17, 2015
Do the calcs... prove me wrong
Why? I researched actual usage and proved that these things aren't in use as you claimed. Argue with Eikka re the calcs. He obviously knows more about them than you.
Eikka looked up some stuff... In fact, it reinforced my assertion of cooling your house with the pool, since it raised the evaporation rate
-only one factor out of many which are necessary to design such a system, and which you weren't aware of. I listed others. More proof that you're a rank amateur.
your frantic attempt
Frantic? 'Frantic' is 60-80 one-long posts a day.
smear me
You smear yourself by posting thoughtless shit about fallout and lung cancer, molten Pu explosions, etc. I just enjoy highlighting your ignorance.

And you're certainly not the first such wetbrain who has deserved to be exposed.
so into hurting others
OH POOR BABY. Gkam wants to post anything that pops into his little mind. You can't do this unchallenged. Boo hoo.

Apr 17, 2015
Ground-coupled heat pumps will probably have more use than this scheme. The acids and heavy metals in mines are deadly and corrosive.

Wiki warriors will not know that.

Apr 18, 2015
Here are some that ARE in in use and can be installed or built into new housing.

http://www.azcent...710.html
http://www.cnet.c...-heater/
http://www.solarattic.com/
http://viewer.zma...55822/16

These have all been in service for years.
Designed by engineers too!

So how can a mine (large hole filled with water) be used for heating and cooling but not a swimming pool (smaller hole filled with water)?

Read the article. Otto's willful ignorance is evidence of a disturbed mental state.

Apr 18, 2015
More, for your consideration:

http://www.egggeo...thermal/
http://aquacal.co...mp-Work-
http://www.poolhe...Heat.htm
http://www.geosmartsupply.com/

"My side of the argument was that these arent being used which indicates that they dont work."
"Backyard pools cant be used as A/C heat sinks." - Otto.

"Predictions from the mathematical model developed match well
with measured pool temperature results, suggesting that it could
be used to accurately analyze the temperature response of a pool
used as a thermal sink for a heat pump during the cooling season, or
as a thermal source for a heat pump in the heating season."

http://wcec.ucdav...ent.pdf.

A quote from your engineer, Otto. Looks like he totally refutes your point.
How embarrassing.

Apr 20, 2015
Ground-coupled heat pumps will probably have more use than this scheme. The acids and heavy metals in mines are deadly and corrosive.

Wiki warriors will not know that.
George your senility is showing again. From this very thread, 9 days ago;
Meanwhile, it is important to note, few mines are not ruined by acidification and heavy metals
It is also important to note that some posters here think that reading the article is optional.

"Closed loop systems help protect equipment from corrosive mine water by exchanging heat outside a loop of corrosion resistant pipes placed inside the mineshaft."

Apr 20, 2015
Are you dense or not, otto-wiki? Ground-coupled heat pumps are different from this scheme using mine water. I suggest you look them up.

And yes, most mines are still unsuited for use.

Apr 21, 2015
Thanks for the links Estevan57 :-)

As I mentioned to TheGhostofOtto1923 elsewhere & it seems he blissfully ignored my post and hasnt yet got a grasp of heat transfer, the physics principle is sound & is based substantively upon well known properties of water/air such as Specific heat and water's nice evaporative profile, ie if you want shedding.

Point is there is a huge specific heat difference between air & water, therefore a sizable amount of heat can be absorbed without increasing water temperature much at all, that small increase can be shed via evaporation eg Australia

@TheGhostofOtto1923

Its an engineering exercise plain & simple directed to the appropriateness of the situation, based upon sound physics of heat transfer. Air con manufacturer's obviously tend to focus on MOST simplest off the shelf stuff that doesnt require any engineering, they use simple charts or software to size a system thats one key reason its not offered to general consumers etc...

Apr 21, 2015
there is a huge specific heat difference between air & water, therefore a sizable amount of heat can be absorbed
Of course Mikey but a typical residential pool doesn't have enough of it to make it practical. Mines and ponds and rivers do as they are flowing and replenished.

The most you can do is augment your A/C system with an expensive setup that is only good for showing off to your whole-earth-catalogue comrades at pool parties. Which, despite what George says, is why they are rare.

Apr 21, 2015
Hilarious!! The otto-wiki cannot find it in his little encyclopedia, so he is totally ignorant of how to do it, and how it works.

Hilarious!!

I will leave it to you folks to straighten out your otto-wiki,.

Apr 22, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
Of course Mikey but a typical residential pool doesn't have enough of it to make it practical
Sorry NO, either you are making a joke or you really DONT understand the immensely important issue of Specific Heat, crikey !

Eg for Oceans vs Atmosphere, its WHY Ocean temp rise of 0.01 deg C is equivalent to a temp rise in the atmosphere of 40 (yes FORTY) degrees C - FFS !!!

Stunned you CAN'T see it, its basic Physics re Heat & Specific heats incl Latent Heat !

TheGhostofOtto1923
Mines and ponds and rivers do as they are flowing and replenished
No, missed the point, evaporation can reduce temperature but even if it didn't try some simple math & compare heat capacity of a typical house (air) with a pool (water) ?

TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
..most you can do is augment your A/C system with an expensive setup that is only good for showing off to your whole-earth-catalogue comrades at pool parties.
NO & Crap

You just DON'T know !

Apr 22, 2015
otto got caught in one of his "games" he brags about.

Apr 22, 2015
But Mikey I am only repeating what Eikka concluded from his calcs in addition to the research I did which told me that there simply not being sold or used. Perhaps you would like to direct your spittle at him?

There are many other factors besides evaporation which need to be included in your calcs. I can only conclude that these systems cannot compete with residential solar, are not worth the upkeep, and at best can only augment conventional systems by 30% at the very most, and only intermittently.

So the main reason that a few people have installed them, is for show. Kind of like gkams CV.

Apr 22, 2015
Otto-wiki does not understand the Specific Heat of water. What an idiot!

We do not need evaporation, otto, we have 375 tons of cooling in that standard pool. How much do you need? Do you understand a "ton" of A/C means it can freeze a ton of water, which takes about 12,000 Btu? Probably not.

I love it when otto proves his ignorance, thinking he has "gotten" someone else. Wiki will do that to you, if you are ignorant of the topic yourself.

Apr 22, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
But Mikey I am only repeating what Eikka concluded from his calcs in addition to the research...
Dumb. Why rely on Eikka's comment offering NO maths, FFS do the calcs YOURSELF, dead simple !

TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
There are many other factors besides evaporation which need to be included in your calcs
As I said evaporation is not necessary. Focus on comparative specific heats, did you not notice the MASSIVE difference between water & air ?

TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
I can only conclude that these systems cannot compete with residential solar, are not worth the upkeep, and at best can only augment conventional systems by 30% at the very most, and only intermittently
WRONG. Already told you companies prefer sell off the shelf with simple sizing, its easy, doesn't need engineering so its quicker. Air con manufacturers offer turnkey as they avoid ANY (even minor) engineering - doh business !

Crikey, you need me to show you ;-)

Apr 22, 2015
WRONG. Already told you companies prefer sell off the shelf with simple sizing, its easy, doesn't need engineering so its quicker. Air con manufacturers offer turnkey as they avoid ANY (even minor) engineering - doh business !

Crikey, you need me to show you ;-)
You need to provide some sources to back up your claims. Eikka already provided calcs. Links from a researcher claims at best only 30% augmentation. How does the cost for producing this benefit compare to the cost of a comparable solar panel array?

PROVIDE some statistics or STFU. Systems installed, cost per performance, etc.
Air con manufacturers offer turnkey as they avoid ANY (even minor) engineering - doh business !
What are you talking about? If there was a market then people would be making and selling them.

Apr 22, 2015
otto-wiki said it could not be done. Shall I find the quotation?

I showed him how to provide 375 tons of A/C and heat his pool at the same time, and not require evaporation, just using a 15 degree F Delta-T, the meaning of of which he had no idea.

He thought another warrior not in the HVAC biz showed us something, when he probably could not tell the difference between a cooling tower, evaporative condenser, process cooler, and a gas-fired absorption chiller.

Apr 24, 2015
No Eikka showed you that residential pools don't have the capacity to cool houses and I showed you that, despite what you say, they are not being installed except by people who have money to throw away.

The reason you can't accept this is 1) you're a rank amateur and 2) you're a self-centered egomaniac.

These things are all pretty obvious.

Apr 24, 2015
Well, otto, it has been fun playing with you and others with no experience or education. Especially you, otto, because of your fragile ego, and your inability to accept good advice. The adolescent screaming and silly accusations are great reminders of the level of those who go into a battle of wits unarmed.

It is a character issue, otto ,and we cannot help you here.

Apr 24, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 asked
You need to provide some sources to back up your claims
Comparative specific heat, ie Physics ! You need to show basic Physics why it SHOULDNT work, your claim precedes my observation.

TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
Eikka already provided calcs
No maths, fail :-(

TheGhostofOtto1923 observed
Links from a researcher claims at best only 30% augmentation
On a specific basis, try to understand Physics & the Engineering aspect.

TheGhostofOtto1923 asks
How does the cost for producing this benefit compare to the cost of a comparable solar panel array?
Who knows, depends on situation, why just solar, what about wind, can't u see it all depends !

TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
PROVIDE some statistics or STFU. Systems installed, cost per performance, etc.
Be nice & not a simpleton, you misunderstand so much, its about applicability, obviously (retail) consumers are already marketed to heavily re ordinary turnkey, can't u see that ?

Apr 24, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
No Eikka showed you that residential pools don't have the capacity to cool houses and I showed you that
Without Maths & in what environment, you focus to much on an arbitrary opinion without support, yet you rely on proof for a general case, if you had actually understood the Physics of specific heat, you wouldn't embarrass yourself so immensely !
https://en.wikipe...capacity

Analysis TheGhostofOtto1923 will show you, if you bothered, one need not "throw money away" etc

and further claims
The reason you can't accept this is 1) you're a rank amateur and 2) you're a self-centered egomaniac
No. Plenty of evidence shown its been used, proving the Physics, the issue not addressed is in respect of economies of scale, addressing existing momentum of conventional system application, regions etc

TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
These things are all pretty obvious
ONLY to those who favour immense over-simplification :-(

Apr 24, 2015
Comparative specific heat, ie Physics ! You need to show basic Physics why it SHOULDNT work, your claim precedes my observation
No mikey I told you the kind of sources you need to present. Case studies. In-depth analyses by competent experts. Performance specs including costs of installation, operation, and maintenance. Some evidence that residential systems are actually being used as something other than novelties.

If they are the evidence should be on the internet. Vendors would be happy to present it in order to sell systems. So where is it?

Sorry but merely proclaiming something doesnt make it so.
You need to show basic Physics why it SHOULDNT work
NO I DONT. And eikka did do calcs. I only have to show that few people are buying them in order to discredit gkams implication that 'we use them...' which was the original bullshit statement.

Evidence says no we are not using them. The conclusion is that they dont WORK. Meaning - not economical, not serviceable, etc

Apr 24, 2015
Give it up, otto, you are losing this one, too.

Basing your entire scientific position on your hate for one person is not a good idea. It's like what the Baggers did to Congress.

Now, you have caught Da Whatever in your silly game, so he now loses any claim to rationality, calling others liars.

Would you want to know what is wrong with the calcs of Eikka. Others have already tried to tell you, but you still did not get it. Eikka thought we were evaporating the water, not being conversant with how HVAC works. Another wiki-disaster. I showed you how to cool your house and heat your pool giving it a 15 degree F delta T, and you asked me how hot it would be, not having any understanding that delta-T means the change in temperature.

We could go on and on, otto, but I stopped answering your silly challenges of alpha nonsense and the like. You deeply resent me for succeeding for some reason.

Apr 24, 2015
"What are you talking about? If there was a market then people would be making and selling them." - Otto

Here is where you can see the marketing and selling for your viewing pleasure.
First they didn't exist now you have to see more proof? The bar keeps moving...

If you want an engineering study - YOUR source from Cal-Davis has a good one.

http://www.azcent...710.html
http://www.cnet.c...-heater/
http://www.solarattic.com/
http://viewer.zma...55822/16
http://www.poolhe...Heat.htm
http://aquacal.co...mp-Work-
http://www.egggeo...thermal/

Just to clear things up for you.

Apr 24, 2015
Eikka actually explained (correctly) that that the storage of heat in a swimming pool is ineffective or inefficient, "pretty damn poor heat batteries", not that cooling of the house couldn't be done by transference of heat to the pool.


Apr 24, 2015
Eikka did nothing of the sort. You need no evaporation, just the specific heat of the water, which is the entire point. Did you have simple physics? And if there were increased evaporation, it makes my point even more valid. A cubic foot of water evaporated is five tons of A/C!

Come on, you folk have been exposed as bullies, and think this is your own forum. We will see about that.

Apr 24, 2015
gkam - Specific heat is your point, not his - and since you have no tolerance for the opinions of others you pay no real attention to his point, which is slightly different from yours, and valid.

Why yes,I have had Physics. I also know that a swimming pool can be a good cooling device, but usually a lousy storage of heat for the winter. Eikka addressed the storage of heat issue correctly.

Reread his comments and don't be so sensitive when corrected.

Calling everyone a bully because they disagree with you is infantile. Am I a bully for that? Maybe.
Get over it.


Apr 25, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 clams
No mikey I told you the kind of sources you need to present
No, your ill thought claim is prior to my comment, sadly demonstrates you were not fortunate to get education in comparative specific heats. Estevan57 offered you links on this thread & iirc previously on another thread you FAILED to read/understand them :-(

TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
Case studies. In-depth analyses by competent experts
Once you get Physics education in heat flow/specific heat you CAN be expert if you are basically competent in maths.

In depth analysis (as such) is superfluous to straightforward algebra. Specific heat is dead easy & thats why I gave you the link so you could learn it for yourself, its hardly more than high school stuff. ie Heat transfer is 1 physics semester at uni, whereas electronics engineering (me) is 4 physics semesters, overall way beyond HVAC techies who might claim to be 'experts' on 1 sem

TheGhostofOtto1923 not difficult

cont

Apr 25, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 asked
Some evidence that residential systems are actually being used as something other than novelties
Estevan57 supplied that here and elsewhere, you missed it :-(

TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
If they are the evidence should be on the internet. Vendors would be happy to present it in order to sell systems. So where is it?
Competitively pushed out because HVAC business uses turnkey heavily marketed by the major players Mitsubishi, GE etc etc

TheGhostofOtto1923 & hypocrisy
Sorry but merely proclaiming something doesnt make it so
Exactly what you did !

Hence proof asked from you WHY it shouldn't work when I who studied Electronic Engineering 1976-1982 KNOW the physics is sound & straightforward to achieve therefore it must be other factors which prevent them going to market, doh !

Think TheGhostofOtto1923, Y would business go against mass marketed HVAC instead of exploit (variant) pools to cool homes, ie cheap turnkey will do ?

cont

Apr 25, 2015
@TheGhostofOtto1923

You seem to be focused on narrow argumentative stance against gkam and now me, if you had a basic understanding of comparative specific heats then you wouldnt embarrass yourself and its clear from Estevan57 such systems exist.

A variant re water thermal storage is also offered in Australia and they are mass marketed as such, see this top entry & others on this general link:-
https://www.googl...Xm1IDYDg

You will see various systems, so even simple water heating has complexities, these have been adapted to draw waste heat from the 'storage solar heater' into cool rooms but, as I mentioned before and you just CANNOT get a grip - these systems are application geared and provided there is enough temperature differential water can heat homes.

TheGhostofOtto1923 PLEASE bear in mind it is very expensive to market non-traditional hvac to uneducated consumers, they are simple folk

cont

Apr 25, 2015
@TheGhostofOtto1923

In closing. From Physics we know heat can be moved around easily and with engineering only using basic pipes, valves & heat-exchangers - it depends entirely on the location and these are not generally available in retail consumer settings for reasons already stated.

If TheGhostofOtto1923, we adopted view "..well its not on sale so its no good" then ANYTHING new has huge hurdles to appear on (retail) market

Detail is pools are GREAT for taking heat away from homes when the temperature differential is high by exploiting H2O high specific heat BUT, the opposite is much harder as H2O temp only goes up a little despite large amounts of heat dumped from room air.

Eg. From low density heat of pool H2O -> higher temp differential air in a room is correctly difficult & impractical UNLESS you have means to exploit differential eg as heat engine/heat pump, ie Want 10-15 C rise in room air from previous 0.1 C rise in pool is quite a bit harder :-(

Apr 25, 2015
Eikka stoops to every "yeah, but" he can find, in order to not lose this debate. He already lost.

The resident snipers got schooled, and it hurt their fragile egos. And it brought out their true character. I'll bet they are conservatives.

This is not a debate about moving heat, it is a scramble to save their egos.

Apr 25, 2015
heGhostofOtto1923 PLEASE bear in mind it is very expensive to market non-traditional hvac to uneducated consumers, they are simple folk
Not when it provides a clear benefit. Alternative energy is in doncha know. People are putting solar on their roofs all over the place.
when I who studied Electronic Engineering 1976-1982 KNOW
Well then why didn't you learn that mechanical engg is not part of EE? You need to go back to school and learn that 101 courses are not the equivalent of degrees.

Anything that Esteban posts looks like peepeepeep to me which is why he is ignored. His posts are tainted by his love for me.

Apr 25, 2015
Oh,boy, now Mike gets to try to tell otto how the world really works. Otto MUST have been in HR. Nobody else could be that ignorant of professional duties.

otto has never had an engineering position, or he would know how they work. Eikka has no experience in HVAC, or he would be embarrassed.

Mike, I gave them my name and sent them to verifying sites, and they still scream "LIAR!". It is obviously a character problem.

Apr 25, 2015
Think TheGhostofOtto1923, Y would business go against mass marketed HVAC instead of exploit (variant) pools to cool homes, ie cheap turnkey will do ?
So you're saying... That there is a conspiracy by Trane and others to suppress what may be a very lucrative and effective alternative? Why don't you try saying instead that this alternative isn't economically competitive? That would at least make some sense.

The university study I posted suggests at most a 30% overall (at best) augmentation of a regular A/C system, in an optimum location at an optimum time. Does this sound cost effective to you?

Why wouldn't someone just install PV on their roof which is cheaper and would do the same thing? Unless they wanted to impress the neighbors, or they preferred lukewarm pool water.

Apr 25, 2015
Too late,otto. You have revealed your character, and nothing else counts.

The system was first installed in the mid-1980's, and ran successfully, heating the pool with house heat. Then they really DID heat the house with the pool. If you cannot stand that, or cannot find it, it is your failure.

There were no good commercial PV in the 1980's.

Meanwhile, you have revealed your true selves and the real reason you argue behind the names of phonies. You are snipers, and this anonymous forum lets you vent your real self, which Mommy will not let you do at home.


Apr 25, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
Not when it provides a clear benefit
Clearly a benefit or rather "risk assessment" is first with the selling business, unless they have very deep pockets AND wish to change the traditional view AND wish to go down a long road of educating mostly uneducable (retail) consumers AND compete with common place popular ads etc.

In that respect has to be comparatively substantial & be crystal to run of the mill uneducated (retail) consumers, industrial is another matter entirely.

TheGhostofOtto1923 said
People are putting solar on their roofs all over the place
Yes & look at comparative economics - power produced is commodity - NOT so with pool based cooling, doh

TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
Well then why didn't you learn that mechanical engg is not part of EE?
WRONG, check courses !
In EE;, material properties, stresses, strains, HEAT flow & capacity, thermal resistivity, etc doh

TheGhostofOtto1923 get a grip PLEASE !

cont

Apr 25, 2015
@TheGhostofOtto1923

Try to understand, Electronic Engineers MUST get training in ALL aspects of not just electrical concepts & lab experience but the enclosures, means to exhaust heat & manage it etc.

Please appreciate that for many Decades a 'common' 1st yr for ALL engineering disciplines includes min 2 yes TWO semesters of Physics & maths re calculus, partial DE's, polynomials, laplace and relativity - check the courses in USA, they are unlikely to be significantly different.

Similarly Mechl Eng also get basics of Electrical/Electronic re instrumentation, currents, fields, magnetics etc Essential to a foundation in Mechanical. As such ALL essential Physics of 4 semester (yes FOUR) then become the mainstay for EE, Mech, Comms, Civil but, Architecture only 2 sems Physics & structural engineering basics.

TheGhostofOtto1923 please think & check before you bark off stuff and TRY to get a grip that your misrepresentations & strawman do you NO justice !

Apr 25, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
..That there is a conspiracy by Trane and others to suppress what may be a very lucrative and effective alternative?
No conspiracy, its momentum, simple mass marketing re economics, anything outside traditional HVAC (already down to a price) will be easier for the generally uneducated (retail) consumers, its common sense, see my other posts PLEASE. Also I don't see anyone claiming its "lucrative" no strawman here TheGhostofOtto1923 ok !

TheGhostofOtto1923
Why don't you try saying instead that this alternative isn't economically competitive?
No. Depends on locations & individual, doh

TheGhostofOtto1923 asked
The university study I posted suggests at most a 30% overall (at best) augmentation of a regular A/C system, in an optimum location at an optimum time. Does this sound cost effective to you?
Obviously it depends, didn't you read ALL my posts here on this thread, its more complex than the simple yes/no you only focus on !

Apr 25, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923
Why wouldn't someone just install PV on their roof which is cheaper and would do the same thing?
Its not clear it would 'do the same thing' at all. PV over here in Australia is also very heavily marketed, subsidised AND returns power to grid offsetting electricity bills as well as for some actually earning an income.

Besides your claim its cheaper all depends on the power rating, size of home, location, setup costs, types of heat exchangers etc etc

TheGhostofOtto1923 I already told you about 'turnkey systems' do you know what that means and the commercial implications ?

You also have to address changing cost of money, now that infrastructure can be cheaper we might well see more in Summers.

TheGhostofOtto1923, if you'd run competitive business which involved anything slightly technical its plainly obvious market demands ongoing education/canvassing, turnkey is easier for simple minded business folk & they get multinational support Eg GE etc

Apr 25, 2015
Mike, stop wasting your time trying to find a way out for otto. He/she put himself/herself in that position, and they can get out by themselves, or stay in that emotional doghouse forever.

BTW, I left some posts for you in the "new material" thread.

I am going to take a short vacation from this site. I hope it is more mature when I return.

Apr 25, 2015
In closing (again)
@TheGhostofOtto1923 claims
Unless they wanted to impress the neighbors, or they preferred lukewarm pool water
What dumb idiocy does this comment come from ?

Those educated AND looking to be efficient with their domestic costs or industry re thermal energy recovery run the numbers now & then factoring into account a heap of combinatorial data, smart people don't generally care about neighbors perception & warmer pool is fine by me :-)

World is becoming a tougher place re not just making money but finding ways to be more efficient, even back in theold da ys of steam engines & long before 1923, thermal recovery of steam/water was used to increase steam engine power, it depends on the comparative economics & they change.

The big COs eg Mitsubishi, GE etc are generally much slower to move but have deep pockets, they will poo poo anything they even imagine will affect profits ie Market Share, until something becomes compelling - its damn obvious !

Apr 25, 2015
gkam replied
Mike, stop wasting your time trying to find a way out for otto. He/she put himself/herself in that position, and they can get out by themselves, or stay in that emotional doghouse forever
He does seem to ONLY focus on the simplest of all which is as close to his preconceived notion as possible, with some attention he might just see the situation is far more complex and there is no simple yes/no, well unless you are retired and just want to argue on the net and leave the HVAC to the local mob who will withdraw a nice profit margin leaving you to look forward to paying tolerable dollars to keep cool or warm...

gkam mentioned
BTW, I left some posts for you in the "new material" thread
Am I already on that thread, which one, there are so many with those words & list record on phys.org doesn't show the whole lot for you or me or the whole comment history either, got a link ?

Or should I just search for; you, me, otto AND the potential socks ;-)

Apr 25, 2015
This one http://phys.org/n...try.html

Mike, the point was the integration of systems for efficacy and efficiency. In the future,we will need to integrate everything, using waste products of one system as inputs to other5s, . . . just like Nature does it. What qa concept!

In my system designed for a dairy in Idaho, I used the pollution of cattle manure to power the ethanol still and generator, producing all the power and hot water needed for the 3,000 head dairy, providing nutrients to the cattle, and generating stabilized nutrients for land application, replacing the fertilizer. It would contain the cellulosic substrates loaded with beneficial bacteria for the soil.

Every waste product was used save for the CO2 from fermentation. Excess power was for sale.

Apr 25, 2015
np, gkam, just found it, cyah there have good holiday, sorry, phys.org search doesn't give that good results and lists are truncated seems I have been too busy with comments around here ;-)

edit:
Yes re efficacy/efficiency, makes a lot of sense but, this is the sad note for some like TheGhostofOtto1923, there is no 'off the shelf' or turnkey, they need to be arranged for each aspect, software from things like Homer may well assist but, its not as complete as someone on the ball there and getting to grips with the essentials,

Cheers

Apr 25, 2015
Try to understand, Electronic Engineers MUST get training in ALL aspects of not just electrical concepts & lab experience but the enclosures, means to exhaust heat & manage it etc
... So basically youre saying that any engineer is qualified to do any sort of engg whatsoever. Ahaahaaaaaa.

This is worse than gkam claiming to be an engr. If you have a degree then you ought to know better.

Apr 25, 2015
TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
... So basically youre saying that any engineer is qualified to do any sort of engg whatsoever. Ahaahaa..
No. Never claimed/said it, you misunderstood.

Read my post again, phone university course adviser, it will confirm you have completely f..ked up & NOT understood breadth/content of my posts Eg 'common 1st yrs' & seems from an angry robotically driven malevolent mindset !

EE's get basics, 4 sems of Physics just like Mech Eng but, they go to more detail Eg Metallurgy, also hydraulics, fluid logic, nucleonics etc & many other aspects too. EE's don't generally study those unless elective/double major, doh.

TheGhostofOtto1923 showing himself to be immensely immature misconstruing
This is worse than gkam claiming to be an engr. If you have a degree...
I do & observe full well u don't read & clearly embarrasses himself again !

TheGhostofOtto1923, so very OFTEN leaps to simplistic dumb conclusions, senility I hope not :-(

so sad

Apr 25, 2015
"Read my post again, phone university course adviser"

-Well if he told you your electronics degree qualified you to do mechanical engg (in the US this means HVAC) then he should be fired. And if this is what you think after getting your degree then its pretty worthless.

You may find this out when you sit for your PE exams.

"EE's get basics, 4 sems of Physics just like Mech Eng but, they go to more detail Eg Metallurgy, also hydraulics, fluid logic, nucleonics etc & many other aspects too"

-What do you mean by 'detail'? And AGAIN youre implying that you received a full education in the engg needed to do professional-quality mechanical engg.

Your bragging is approaching gkam-level bullshit here I think. MEs receive training in control systems so they know what theyre talking about with the people at Johnson Controls. You really think this qualifies them to design those systems??

Perhaps in central american countries. But not in the western world.

Apr 25, 2015
"In my system designed for a dairy in Idaho, I used the pollution of cattle manure to power the ethanol still and generator, producing all the power and hot water needed for the 3,000 head blah"

-And I wonder how this system would compare to one designed by a real engineer. You did yours allegedly to get a BS in some ancillary discipline. Were there real engrs on the jury? Did they review your design with the understanding that it was prepared by an amateur with no formal engg training or experience?

Engrs get real engg degrees, go on to get real EIT-level experience, and then need to pass exams in order to get PE licences, all in order to design REAL systems of the sort you attempted in your little narrative.

Do you ever think youll be able to appreciate the difference?

Repent george. Not much time left.

Apr 25, 2015
Hey Otto, "phone university course adviser" refers to you.

And Mechanical Engineers are part of the design team at Johnson Controls. I know a few.

You really don't know a damn thing about the real world so why do you pretend?
Go cool off in your pool, I mean house.

Apr 27, 2015
I was Senior Engineer in Technical Services. otto is just a pseudonym in Vandal Mode.

I had to explain how there are different engineering fields. Now I have to inform him you do not always need a PE or degree in a certain field, if you can do the work!!

otto MUST have been in HR!!! Buzzword-matching is all he knows.

Let's discuss the system, shall we? I have questions for you.

May 07, 2015
I was Senior Engineer in Technical Services. otto is just a pseudonym in Vandal Mode.

I had to explain how there are different engineering fields. Now I have to inform him you do not always need a PE or degree in a certain field, if you can do the work!!
You need a PE to hold a senior level position at PG&E, which Ive shown you. This makes you a liar unless you can prove otherwise.
Let's discuss the system, shall we?
Lets discuss your systemic predeliction for lying and bullshitting, shall we?

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