Challenges to grow with electric cars' sales: Aging grid needs to handle more power

Apr 17, 2009 By Brent Snavely
power grid

President Barack Obama and others are calling for a boom in electric vehicle production, which seems simple enough on the surface: Build the cars and plug them in. If only it were that easy.

When a Chevrolet Volt is plugged into a 240-volt outlet, it will use about 3.3 kilowatts of power, or about the same amount of power as a dishwasher or air conditioner.

Most people are already familiar with what can happen when thousands of air conditioners are plugged in and running at the same time during the summer: brownouts.

"The last thing we would want is for everyone to come home ... and plug them in at 5 or 6 o'clock on a hot, muggy summer afternoon ... when we are at our peak," DTE Chairman Anthony Earley Jr. told the Free Press in an interview recently.

And then there are other challenges: What happens on road trips when drivers need to recharge the battery? What if you live in an apartment without a garage and electrical outlets?

As grow in popularity, so do the challenges.

Vince Dow, DTE's vice president of distribution operations, said it could take "maybe a decade" until there are enough plug-in cars on the road to cause problems with the national power grid.

However, it also takes about that long, experts say, to plan and build a new power plant.

That's why experts like Earley, who recently joined the board of Ford Motor Co., say the nation must start working to address infrastructure concerns now.

The slow ramp-up of electric cars will help the country prepare.

Mike Omotoso, a senior manager and hybrid expert at J.D. Power and Associates, said major automakers have plans to produce fewer than 100,000 electric cars for the U.S. market through 2011.

Over the next two years, GM plans to build 40,000 Chevrolet Volts, Toyota Motor Corp. intends to produce more than 15,000 plug-in Prius cars, Nissan intends to produce 10,000 yet-to-be named electric cars and Chrysler intends to produce 5,000.

With those low numbers, electric vehicles will likely represent less than 1 percent of the 10 million or so vehicles sold a year in the United States for some time.

The numbers of consumers opting for electric cars, however, is likely to grow faster as gas prices rise.

One of the key challenges is getting the nation's aging power grid ready to handle the additional power needed to recharge thousands of new cars and trucks.

Since 1990, demand on the nation's electric system has increased by about 25 percent, according to the U.S. Department of Energy. The nation operates about 10,000 power plants. However, construction of the transmission infrastructure that distributes that electricity has decreased about 30 percent since 1990.

"Unless substantial amounts of capital are invested over the next several decades ... service quality will degrade and costs will go up," the Department of Energy says on its Web site.

One of the core ideas emerging as a solution to manage electric demand for future electric cars is getting people to recharge their electric vehicles late at night, an off-peak time.

To encourage people to recharge their electric vehicles at night, utilities are installing smart meters, which will show how much it costs to recharge at different times of the day and encourage customers to better manage their consumption. Nighttime rates will likely be the lowest.

Last year, DTE launched a smart-meter test project on Grosse Ile, Mich. The utility is working with partners to install 30,000 new meters on the island, with plans to spend $350 million installing the meters statewide.

But even with the right technology, Joe Hoagland, a vice president at the Tennessee Valley Authority, a utility, still sees potential problems.

"The recharging concept at night is OK, but the range of a strictly electric vehicle is still limiting enough that in a given day you may need to travel more than you can do with a single charge," Hoagland said.

Ultimately, the nation will need a system of public recharging stations similar to the Web of gas stations nationwide.

Venture capital-funded Project Better Place, Itron Inc. and GridPoint Inc. are some of the firms working to build that network and explore different technologies for electric metering and recharging.

"I think you are going to see a booming cottage industry of parking garages offering charging stations," Dow said.

The key, said Ann Marie Sastry, a University of Michigan battery expert, is for the government to establish easy permitting and approval processes, as well as tax incentives, to encourage development.

"To me, it would be great to see new companies move in with innovative ideas ... and create wealth," Sastry said. "But the government has to be a partner in that."

___

ADDITIONAL FACTS

GRAND AMBITIONS

When President laid out his new energy plan for America -- standing in front of about 1,000 supporters last August -- it included ambitious automotive goals. Among them:

• One million plug-in hybrid-electric cars on the road by 2015.

• A 10-year, $150-billion plan to develop alternative and clean energy sources, including fuel cells to power vehicles.

"I know how much the auto industry and the autoworkers of this state have struggled over the last decade or so," Obama said at the time. "But I also know where I want the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow to be built -- not in Japan, not in China, but right here in the United States of America. Right here in the state of Michigan."

While automakers have at least 70,000 slated for production for the United States through 2011, a Morgan Stanley report last year estimated that annual U.S. sales of both hybrid gasoline-electric and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles could reach about 1.2 million in 2015.

However, that report assumes higher gas prices of $3 a gallon, which are a strong driver for alternative-vehicle sales.

___

(c) 2009, Detroit Free Press.
Visit the Freep, the World Wide Web site of the Detroit Free Press, at www.freep.com
Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services.

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itistoday
4.2 / 5 (5) Apr 17, 2009
I'm surprised there wasn't a single mention of nuclear energy in this entire article.
Doug_Huffman
1.4 / 5 (9) Apr 17, 2009
Why? The Obamination is green and innumerate and willy-nilly progressive. It wants to add a whole new class of large electric loads but with no thought of how to supply it. It's just electric production pollution NIMBY.

Did'ja see the solar powered electric car charger in Chicago, illustrated without its solar array?

Who fails to do arithmetic is doomed to nonsense.
Shootist
1.4 / 5 (10) Apr 17, 2009
good god are the powers that be just coming to grips with this question? I don't know about Europe/Asia but in the US the historical nominal delivered voltage of 125V/250V has degraded to 108V/216V. Add a couple of million commuters plugging in their wundarcar at 5:30pm and, all of a sudden, you've got a problem.



And dipshi . . . , er Obama wants to put the Coal industry "out of business". Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?
wolfkeeper
4 / 5 (4) Apr 17, 2009
People won't charge during the day, because the grid can supply electricity more cheaply at night.

Given that, the studies that have been done show that the grid pretty much has enough capacity already.
jimmie
1 / 5 (3) Apr 17, 2009
Guess DTE could always fire up FERMI I again....
pres68y
4.8 / 5 (4) Apr 17, 2009
IMHO, they are approaching it just backwards.
The grid should become more decentralized
(like has happened with computers).

Most power should be generated locally.

The new "mini nukes" are an excellent solution where natural resources are not available.

Also, local power sharing can help stabilize demands due to maintenance, repair or an unexpected overload.

Pres
dachpyarvile
1.5 / 5 (8) Apr 18, 2009
Proof that Obama is an idiot...and a waffler of the worst sort. "We need to drasticly cut CO2 emissions..." "We need a lot of electric cars on the road by 2015..." What is it going to be?
DGBEACH
2.7 / 5 (6) Apr 18, 2009
The *obvious* solution to this is to trickle-charge stationary batteries all the time, thus averaging out the consumption, which would be used to charge the vehicle batteries when needed. So in order to supply, let's say, 40kWh to the vehicle, you would slowly accumulate the charge at a 1.67kWh rate over 24 hours. Average cost of less than $6/day to "fill'er up"...once you've paid for everything of course -:) I can't wait!!!
Newbeak
2.5 / 5 (4) Apr 18, 2009
I agree with DGBEACH,although I would prefer flywheel storage to batteries,which can deliver stored power at a higher rate than batteries,and have an indefinite lifespan.
david_42
4 / 5 (4) Apr 18, 2009
One suggestion for charging electric vehicles levels the base load and helps with erratic nature of alternative power generation: remote control of the chargers. Chargers could be shut off for varying periods depending on system load and power availability. Power companies have use similar systems to level summer loads just by shutting off home A/C units for 10-15 minutes at a time. My home in Las Vegas was in the program and I never noticed, except when I got a rebate on my power bill.
Velanarris
2.6 / 5 (5) Apr 18, 2009
The *obvious* solution to this is to trickle-charge stationary batteries all the time, thus averaging out the consumption, which would be used to charge the vehicle batteries when needed. So in order to supply, let's say, 40kWh to the vehicle, you would slowly accumulate the charge at a 1.67kWh rate over 24 hours. Average cost of less than $6/day to "fill'er up"...once you've paid for everything of course -:) I can't wait!!!

Because during an average 24 hour day you don't use your car at all during those 24 hours?

I have to get to work. I can't wait for a battery to recharge.

And I certainly can't get to work if there are rolling brownouts preventing me from charging my car.

The amount of time needed to recharge these plug-in's is ridiculous, and not just from a grid perspective.

That is unless they're going to make the cars cheaper so I can buy a few so I always have one charged, say when my wife goes into labor, or my child breaks his arm at school and I have to go pick him/her up.

I hope they have an alternate way to get power to my house when all the transformers freeze like this past winter. I wouldn't like having no heat, AND no way to go somewhere warm in the event of a snow storm. Especially when PSNH was telling people it would be a month before the juice came back on.
Fazer
2.8 / 5 (5) Apr 18, 2009
Hmmm, Newbeak mentions flywheels, whatever happened to that technology? I think I have heard of them being installed in the floors of data centers for use as a UPS. It would be great to see them installed in homes to suck up power at night and "feed the need" during peak hours, which would partially answer press68y's call for decentralization.

Anyone know what such a system would cost? I see comparisons to chemical batteries, but no estimates on price.
DGBEACH
3 / 5 (6) Apr 18, 2009
Because during an average 24 hour day you don't use your car at all during those 24 hours?







I have to get to work. I can't wait for a battery to recharge.




No no no, your car would receive a full charge during whatever time it needed it, but from your home batteries, while you're at home. It would be the home batteries which would be trickle charged, not your car's!
noosfractal
4 / 5 (3) Apr 18, 2009
Flywheels come in at about $200/kWh storage, with potential to reach about $50/kWh long term.
goldengod
4.4 / 5 (5) Apr 18, 2009
Just build more infrastructure and use it more efficiently. More jobs and more efficiency will make America look like you guys have found your brains again.
Paradox
4.8 / 5 (5) Apr 18, 2009
the US the historical nominal delivered voltage of 125V/250V has degraded to 108V/216V. Add a couple of million commuters plugging in their wundarcar at 5:30pm and, all of a sudden, you've got a problem.


The "120/240V" that you would measure, comes from individual transformers, mounted on poles outside your house, or pad mounted transformers for commercial tenants. If you are reading a lower voltage, then you might have a problem with your transformer. It has nothing to do with a "historical nominal voltage". Trust me, I read voltages at numerous sites on a daily basis. My "average" reading is around 118v on a 120v system. The difference in voltages could be due to many different things. there is also a 120/208v system, and you might be getting the two confused.
dachpyarvile
1.7 / 5 (6) Apr 19, 2009
Just build more infrastructure and use it more efficiently. More jobs and more efficiency will make America look like you guys have found your brains again.


'Twould be nice but where to obtain the money to pay the workers and for the materials to shore up the infrastructure. The Federal government almost closed its doors and turned off the lights this year as it is. Too much money went into pork-barrel spending than into such things as infrastructure because Obama is a liar and an idiot, as are most of the current congressman and congresswomen. America voted for change and are now about to get it in spades!
DGBEACH
1 / 5 (5) Apr 19, 2009
'Twould be nice but where to obtain the money to pay the workers and for the materials to shore up the infrastructure
I'm sure your old buddy HU Jintao would be happy to lend you guys more money for that...what's a couple more hundred Billion between friends -:)
dachpyarvile
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 19, 2009
I have no idea what you are talking about... (goes back to monitoring CO2 levels in the Rockies)...
MorituriMax
3.3 / 5 (3) Apr 19, 2009
Saw a really interesting article about the new type of LI-ION battery that is being researched at a university. It can recharge very very quickly and also discharge very very quickly.

Combine that with external combustion engines (turbines) and you get a system that spins up the turbine long enough to pump the battery full, then spin the turbine back down. Would be great for electric cars. Up till now there weren't any batteries that could take the charge fast enough and flywheels, though currently in use in some applications, were just not safe enough to be installed in cars.

"New battery material could lead to rapid recharging of many devices"
http://www.physor...014.html
nilbud
3.3 / 5 (3) Apr 19, 2009
If only there was a way of converting fear and confusion into electricity. All the sad old Obama hating fox viewers could be of use instead of being a stinking rotten abscess of bleating blind stupidity.
dachpyarvile
2.1 / 5 (7) Apr 19, 2009
Actually, it is Obama supporters who are fear-mongers. Most all the "were all gonna die from CO2" predictions and claims without solid science to back the claims are coming from all the sheeple on the Obama side...
Roj
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 20, 2009
No politician is expected to match the scientific prowess of you fine people.

Cabinet members, and appointees with any science background is noted to Obama's credit, relative to the prior administration, which had effectively prosecuted all scientific principal as heretical.

As far as overloading the grid, trickle charging seems most practical with a spare battery that is swapped between charges.
DGBEACH
2.2 / 5 (5) Apr 20, 2009
As far as overloading the grid, trickle charging seems most practical with a spare battery that is swapped between charges.

Agreed.
frogz
5 / 5 (1) Apr 20, 2009
Lets also not forget solar power for the trickle charging.

There is also the "green movement" to take into consideration, if the average household is going to reduce its power consumption, then that reduction will carry over toward the load born of the EV boom.
mikiwud
1.8 / 5 (5) Apr 22, 2009
Battery changing? Do know how big and heavy they are? And the cost of a spare one? Or the cost of repacement every 3 to 5 years?
If they were to be changeable they would have to be designed that way. Could you imagine a little old lady or similar doing it? Bad weather and no garage? Think of the liability in sue mad culture like the USA!
Nicking a battery pack would be easier than syphoning a tank.
And I have not started on some of the other stupid ideas coming out of the greenies.
nilbud
1 / 5 (2) Apr 22, 2009
Battery changing? Do know how big and heavy they are? And the cost of a spare one? Or the cost of repacement every 3 to 5 years?

If they were to be changeable they would have to be designed that way. Could you imagine a little old lady or similar doing it? Bad weather and no garage? Think of the liability in sue mad culture like the USA!

Nicking a battery pack would be easier than syphoning a tank.

And I have not started on some of the other stupid ideas coming out of the greenies.


That was incoherent. These battery packs are easier to steal than a tank of gas and yet are unbelieveably difficult to access at the same time. pfft
The cost of replacement battery packs after 5 years is $3,000 US (or whatever currency you'll be using in 5 years, the Euroan or Yuaro perhaps).
You don't seem to see any problems with granny changing the oil and spark plugs in her gas guzzler, why should she find changing a battery pack any more difficult.
Don't allow your narrow understanding of politics to ruin the rest of your life, no need to lose all the time.
Velanarris
3 / 5 (2) Apr 22, 2009
nilbud, big disconnect here. Granny isn't changing her oil, she's DRIVING to jiffy lube so they can do it.

If the powerplant of the car is kaput, the car isn't driving anywhere. And as for the cost of the battery pack, a common hybrid battery replacement costs between 7 and 10 grand right now.
nilbud
2.3 / 5 (4) Apr 22, 2009
I realise in the US that emotion is interchangeable with fact, just considered another form of expression but in Europe we don't hold with it. Your figures are made up whereas I did some research. Try that in future (BTW Rush Limbaugh or fox aren't reliable sources).

http://www.buildi...rius.htm
and I quote
"We have had no mechanical or other problems with the car so far. The only maintenance has been the 5000 mile oil changes.

One of the concerns about buying the car was its mechanical complexity, but the long warrantee[sic] on the hybrid parts got us over that.

There has also been a lot of talk about the expense of replacing the battery pack, and how long the battery pack will last. I have seen thinks on the internet as nutty as "it has to be replaced every 2 years and it costs $12000". As far as I can determine, Toyota designs the battery pack to last the life of the car. The 150,000 mile warrantee[sic] they provide in some states would tend to confirm this. While I have not asked the dealer what the replacement cost would be, the most authoritative estimate I have read says its $3000. I expect this will go down some over time as the battery pack product gets more efficient with higher volume production."

http://consumergu...-cga.htm

Prius taxis have done over 200,000 miles on a single pack.
mikiwud
1.3 / 5 (4) Apr 23, 2009
nilbud,

the main topic was changing battery packs as quick route to recharging because of small range in electric cars not hybrids. A hybrid can run on its ICE when the battery runs down. It also charges it as you drive. It's plug-ins that are a problem.

BTW, batteries use a lot of toxic materials and produce CO2 making and transporting them.
Velanarris
3 / 5 (2) Apr 23, 2009
I realise in the US that emotion is interchangeable with fact, just considered another form of expression but in Europe we don't hold with it. Your figures are made up whereas I did some research. Try that in future (BTW Rush Limbaugh or fox aren't reliable sources).
How about directly from the affected owners?
http://www.priuso.../?p=3692
or how about from the hybrid car owners site?
http://www.hybrid...sts.html

Current pricing on a battery for a Prius or a hybrid civic is about 3500 parts and 500-750 labor. On the larger hybrids, like the tahoe the battery is in the neighborhood of 7k with about 1k install cost.

As for the 200k taxi, who cares. I had a Plymouth Breeze that went 300k, doesn't mean it was a good car.
Velanarris
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 23, 2009
And FYI: the Prius owners manual states that the battery will last longer if the car is in constant use, making your taxi point invalid. The manual also states that if you leave the car parked and off for more than 2 weeks at a time your warantee is void and the battery can fail prematurely.

Effectively, the typical user will not get anywhere near 200k or even 100k out of the battery. Looks like your generalization was inaccurate, and your research found lacking.
mikiwud
1.8 / 5 (5) Apr 24, 2009
nilbud,
These battery packs are easier to steal than a tank of gas and yet are unbelieveably difficult to access at the same time.


This is distorting what I said. I wrote "would" be easier, not "are". If The battery pack was made easy to change, it would be easy to nick.

nilbud
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 27, 2009
Velnarris there you go letting your emotions run away with you. Why anyone would buy a car and not use it is a bit perplexing. If you buy any car and never use it it'll rot. The typical user IS getting 200,000 miles they just haven't reached that 200,000 point yet. Please control your outbursts.

Mikiwud Wheels are made easy to change, they are sometimes stolen, it doesn't follow that automotive engineering has failed.
Velanarris
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 28, 2009
Velnarris there you go letting your emotions run away with you. Why anyone would buy a car and not use it is a bit perplexing.
So you never take a vacation? You've never been elderly?
If you buy any car and never use it it'll rot. The typical user IS getting 200,000 miles they just haven't reached that 200,000 point yet. Please control your outbursts.
If the average user hasn't hit 200k, how can you state that they will until you have evidence of that fact?

I love how you state we're allowing our emotions to guide our argument, when you're the one with a hard on for Li Ion.
nilbud
3 / 5 (2) Apr 28, 2009
If I owned a Prius and I was off on holidays for more than 2 weeks I'd dump it at the dealership and let them handle it. Old people shouldn't be driving they're a danger to themselves and others.
Whereas you are just popping out of your time machine and can completely confirm that all the battery packs only made it to 180,000 miles. That'll learn me to argue with a Creationist, especially one with a time machine.
Velanarris
3 / 5 (2) Apr 29, 2009
If I owned a Prius and I was off on holidays for more than 2 weeks I'd dump it at the dealership and let them handle it.
If they offer that service. Most don't. And if you'd trust an American car dealership to take proper care of your car, well, now I understand why you believe in AGW without evidence.

Old people shouldn't be driving they're a danger to themselves and others.
Wow, just wow.

Whereas you are just popping out of your time machine and can completely confirm that all the battery packs only made it to 180,000 miles.
Well so far I haven't read any reports of normal users having their battery last beyond 180k. Most owners report the unsuitably short lifespan of the battery and the extensive replacement cost. A cost so great that the price of the battery had to be lowered as it was preventing owner loyalty and new sales. If the battery was that expensive, but DID last to 180k, most people wouldn't be too concerned as at that point in time, the car has paid for itself in spades.

That'll learn me to argue with a Creationist, especially one with a time machine.
It's ok nilbud, one day the reality of your self induced ignorance will be known to you, and at that time you'll remove yourself from the ranks of the Gori, and rejoin rational people, who inhabit both sides of the AGW debate.



On that glorius day you'll realize the difference between a skeptic and a denialist, as well as the difference between a scientist and an alarmist.
dachpyarvile
2 / 5 (4) May 06, 2009
...
And dipshi . . . , er Obama wants to put the Coal industry "out of business". Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?


Why would he care? He's been helping put 1,000s of people out of work on a fairly regular basis. For example, in order for various industries to receive bailouts under Obama and the Democratically controlled Congress, companies must show viability even if it includes laying off tens of thousands of their workers. So far, tens of thousands have been laid off and many businesses already are laying off workers in anticipation of plans of Congress and Obama. If Obama really cared, he would have included stipulations that these companies should not cause job loss. There are other ways to cut costs without laying off your work-force. Cutting jobs is just easier.
jerryd
not rated yet Jun 06, 2009

I see the Fox/Rush crowd of dummies is here.
Prius batteries cost $700 to replace but unless in a wreak they are free. Few ever need replacing.
Back to the article it says how it will be solved in it!!
And by the time, 10 yr EV's will not inly charge from the grid but when needed supply power back into it called V2G. Plug in Hybrids or EV's can put 50kw back into the grid with V2G!! This is so valuable to the utility they may even charge for free!! EV's will save the grid, not overburden it.
Oil hit $70bbl yesterday in a deep recession!! What will it hit when there is actual demand? I'm betting on $150/bbl by next yr so you better get your hybrid now while you can.
Many like me got tired of waiting and built our own EV's and I get 250mpg equivalent!! Yahoo EV racing, EV clubs to find info, one near you.
BTW we have hardly increased electric capacity because we use so much less/person now. Last yr wind was the largest new electric source.
Sodium and maybe flywheels will be very cost effective storage.
So you Ditto heads bend over as big oil is going to screw you. Of course voting in Bush has helped you a lot hasn't it? How's your bank account? 401k? Home value? The $10T in repub debt in just 8 yrs is 200x's as much damage as 9-11 did! Now that's real patriotic isn't it?
dachpyarvile
1 / 5 (1) Jun 10, 2009
Jerryd,

Congress has the ability to help regulate fuel costs. Fuel has been at its highest cost since the Democrats have been sitting in office. Bush had nothing to do with it. Bush set things up so that we could drill our own oil and lessen our dependence on foreign oil. Obama cancelled Bush's plans as soon as he took office. We are back to dependence on foreign oil and prices are rising again. They only came down during elections to make them look good. Once they were voted in regulation went out the window again and prices are rising once again...

Wind power is inefficient and requires the use of fossil fuels to make wind farms viable and keep them properly maintained.

Don't forget that much of that national debt was added during the last two years of Bush's 2nd term. Congress is controlled by Democrats and they make the nation's budget.

By the way, Obama with the support of the Democratically controlled Congress just added a whole lot of debt to the existing debt, will be adding trillions more, has taken control of businesses and further shot the economy to hell. Under Obama America has lost over 6 million jobs and counting.

Furthermore, the economy tanked as a result of legislation signed into effect by Carter and Clinton, and enforced by Clinton, Janet Reno, and Obama's ACORN movement. They were the ones who signed laws into effect and enforced them so vigorously that banks had little choice but to comply and lend to people in low income cities and other areas who could not afford loans.

Furthermore, Bush warned the Congress and House about upcoming problems as a result of what he was seeing with Fannie Mae and other financial companies, and warned them that potential problems could arise with the economy. Democratically controlled congress, as expected, ignored his warnings and sat back and did nothing for two years. And then, the economy tanked and Bush got the blame. But, Congress makes the budgets...

You just go right on blaming Bush for the doings of Democrats. It just shows how ignorant and gullible people who believe the mass media can be. America is yet to get the biggest sucker-punch in history next to the democratically prolonged Great Depression. America wanted change? It's getting change. :)

By the way V2G technology increases wear and tear on the vehicle and will increase vehicle maintenance costs and frequency. Mark my words...
Velanarris
not rated yet Jun 10, 2009
Jerryd,

There's a reason why Bush had a 40% approval rate and congress was in the teens. Problem is we didn't do the math and vote out the congress.

Dach,

America wanted change? It's getting change. :)
Well at least you're halfway right. We're begging for it now, homelessness is up an average of 8%.

You guys want to send a message, vote third party. The two party system has screwed us enough. And yes, both parties are guilty, but no one is guiltier than us for letting it happen.
dachpyarvile
1 / 5 (1) Jun 11, 2009
Jerryd,

There's a reason why Bush had a 40% approval rate and congress was in the teens. Problem is we didn't do the math and vote out the congress.


Absolutely! Anyone who actually looks at the economy data knows exactly when the economy of the United States began to tank. Just a few months after Congress was elected and filled with an influx of controlling Democrats is when it truly began. Bush had warned congressional Democrats for a long time that if they did not do something about the financial institutions soon the economy would take a downswing. They refused to do anything suggested. The rest is now going to be history. In point of fact, since the Democrats have been in control we have seen a major drop in all financial sectors. Just this year alone we have lost over 6 million jobs and counting...

Dach,

America wanted change? It's getting change. :)
Well at least you're halfway right. We're begging for it now, homelessness is up an average of 8%.


Oh no, we are getting change alright. We just are not getting the change America thought they were asking for. :)

You guys want to send a message, vote third party. The two party system has screwed us enough. And yes, both parties are guilty, but no one is guiltier than us for letting it happen.


For the last decades I have thought about voting third party but the candidates have left much to be desired, IMO. Each election has been a "lesser of evils" type of election. Trouble with voting third party is that it tends to give votes to one of the other parties--when the fraudulent votes are discarded, that is. I firmly believe that legislation should be enacted to make it mandatory to present idenfication when voting. No ID no vote!

But, Democrats have long been in opposition to such legislation. Why? An inordinate number of fraudulent votes tend to lean to the Democratic side. They picked well when they chose the Jackass as their party's logo.