Future for incandescent light bulbs looking dim

July 22, 2011 By Curtis Morgan

So, how many members of Congress does it take to screw up a light bulb?

It only sounds like a joke. The fate of the , the oldest and most common of household electrical devices, has morphed into a political litmus test, one championed by conservative leaders from Rush Limbaugh to Republican presidential hopeful Michele Bachmann.

In a vote along party lines, the House last week blocked a GOP effort to repeal efficiency standards that will begin phasing out the worst watt-wasters next year. But backers like Rep. Bill Posey who sees the notion of regulating bulbs as evidence of a "nanny state" run amok, haven't abandoned the right to light fight.

"This is a sore spot with people," said the Florida Republican. "My constituents overwhelmingly don't want the government to decide what kind of light bulb they want."

Whichever way the Washington debate goes, the future is dimming for cheap, old-school filament bulbs, which haven't changed much since patented his design more than 130 years ago.

Along with now-common compact florescent bulbs, a new generation of light emitting diode (LED) bulbs claiming up to 23 years of life has begun showing up on store shelves and their eye-popping initial prices of $50-plus have started to drop. Both kinds last years longer and sip roughly a quarter of the juice of their predecessors.

David Schuellerman, a manager for General Electric Lighting, said demand for standard bulbs has dropped by half over the last five years, a trend he expects to continue as homeowners begin following the LED lead of business, which has already put the technology in everything from refrigerator cases to traffic signals.

Maintenance and energy saving easily justify higher initial costs, he said. "It's compelling when you think that these large companies that have the capacity to crunch the numbers - Starbucks, Walmart, Target - like LED for their stores,"

At Unlimited in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., purchasing agent Marek Luce has seen increasing interest in LEDs, which are fully dimmable, burn much cooler and are so versatile they come in rope or tape strips now popular under kitchen cabinets. But he's also noted some runs on incandescents by customers worried about "bulb ban" rumors.

"At times, if they need one, they'll buy 10. It's not like they're buying 200 or 300," said Luce, who believes consumer education will ease concerns. "Nobody feels like anybody's opinion was asked. A lot of people are afraid of not being left with a choice."

The backlash has flummoxed environmentalists and energy efficiency advocates.

"Because the light bulb is so iconic, it's being used a poster child for a political debate about how much government should regulate," said Kateri Callahan, president of the Alliance to Save Energy, a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit whose members include 150 major corporations and organizations. "To me, it's mind-boggling that we would try to take a step backwards from what we've been doing on a regular basis."

The standards - produced with bipartisan congressional support and signed by President George W. Bush in 2007 - were drawn up with the goal of reducing national energy demands and pollution. They mirror regulations that have been applied to appliances from refrigerators to water heaters since the 1970s.

Supporters insist the standards will save consumers billions of dollars over the long haul.

By 2020, when all bulbs will have to be about 28 percent more efficient than current standard bulbs, the average household bill is expected to drop by 7 percent, or $85 a year, according to an analysis by the National Resources Defense Council. Another study by the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy put overall savings for Americans at $12.5 billion a year. The study also claims the new standards would eliminate the need for 33 power plants nationwide.

The rules, which match standards already in place in Europe, have support from lighting manufacturers, trade associations and the Obama administration.

Last week, U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu dismissed claims by critics that the standards amounted to a de facto ban of incandescents.

They do effectively phase out the cheapest standard bulbs by 2014, starting with 100-watt ones that are supposed to be off store shelves by January, although the House of Representatives on Friday approved an amendment to delay a ban on sales of the incandescent bulb for nine months, from Jan. 1 to the end of the fiscal year.

Manufacturers say they already have halogen-based incandescents available that offer similar quality light and dimming options but will cost a bit more.

"The only difference is they help American consumers save more money," Chu said.

But to some conservatives, the bulb regulations have become a lightning rod.

Limbaugh, on his radio show, called them an assault on personal choice, proclaiming, "Let there be incandescent light and freedom." Bachmann, the Minnesota representative and tea party favorite who has strong poll numbers among GOP presidential hopefuls, proposed one bill to repeal the standard.

The House voted on a second similar one from Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas. It won a majority, 233 to 193, but failed because it was introduced under a rule requiring two-thirds approval.

The debate extends beyond Washington. Last month, the Texas Legislature passed a bill allowing use of incandescents - but only if they're made in the state. South Carolina and Pennsylvania are considering similar measures.

Critics point to the high cost of alternatives and pollution concerns from mercury used in compact florescent bulbs, which are supposed to be recycled and require careful cleanup if they're broken - both concerns supporters contend have been exaggerated.

Maureen Martin, senior fellow for legal affairs at The Heartland Institute, a free-market think tank based in Chicago, believes congress has long overstepped its authority with efficiency standards.

"Just because we have always done something in the past doesn't make it right," she said. But she also acknowledged that the debate was bigger than the bulb.

"It has become a symbol for low-flow toilets and all the other restrictions that have been imposed on everyday things," she said. "People are so fed up at the grassroots level."

Florida Rep. Posey supported the repeal, even though it was opposed by an LED manufacturer in his district, Satellite Beach-based Lighting Science Group.

The company's chief executive, Jim Haworth, issued a statement crediting the tougher standards with sparking industry innovation, helping his company grow from 100 to 350 employees in the last year and reducing energy use and pollution. Haworth called lighting, which consumes 19 percent of global electrical output, the "low-hanging fruit" in energy conservation.

Posey, who said he used both traditional and florescent bulbs in his home and offices, stressed the repeal wasn't intended to promote aging light bulb technology but aimed at preserving consumer choice and cutting through the regulatory red tape.

"To have 40 pages of federal code over what kind of light bulb you can have is ridiculous," he said.

Though the repeal failed, those who oppose the ban have pinned their hopes on the House amendment, which would strip the efficiency program of funding. But with the Senate controlled by Democrats, those hopes appear to be flickering.

Bob Keefe, a spokesman for the environmental group NRDC, said GOP ideologues had hijacked a common sense measure that had already made many appliances more efficient.

"I don't think anybody really wants to go back to ice boxes or 1960s refrigerators, do they?"

(c) 2011, The Miami Herald.
Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services.

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lighthouse10
Jul 22, 2011

Rank: 2.7 / 5 (6)
It is a "Ban" -
see the 2007 Energy Act
Not only a ban on simple incandescents starting 2012 (28% energy reduction reqd) but also on ALL known incandescents by 2020 (67% energy reduction reqd to 45 lumen per Watt),
including therefore the announced Philips etc New Incandescents by Steven Chu etc
- which the politicians waving them around like to keep VERY quiet about.

The Energy Information Administration at Dept of Energy (see their press releases) also confirm that any lamp on the market in 2020
will have to be as efficient as CFLs by such time.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on view!)
incandescents cant technically be made to such energy usage,
and even if they could, the profit-seeking manufacturers - who helped write the standards - would be unlikely to pursue it given the high cost of such bulbs relative to profitability compared to more profitable CFLs/LEDs.

Of course, even during the time they're allowed,
the Halogen etc replacements are not the same...
lighthouse10
Jul 22, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
(continued) Besides, the Halogen and similar incandscents
are hardly available (and only in smaller ranges) in post-ban EU and Australia...

More on the industrial politics behind the ban, with references and copies of official communications
ceolas.net/#li1ax
.
Kafpauzo
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 3.9 / 5 (7)
From the article:

"This is a sore spot with people," said the Florida Republican. "My constituents overwhelmingly don't want the government to decide what kind of light bulb they want."


Let's remove the fluff and speak clearly:

"My constituents overwhelmingly don't want the government to decide what kind of pollution costs they want to impose on their fellow humans."
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (6)
Let's remove the fluff and speak clearly:

Yes, let's do. This is a corporate scam perpetrated by corporate crony capitalists (Philips) who want to force people to buy higher profit margin CFLs.
It's amazing how gullible the watermelons (green on the outside, red on the inside) are.
FrankHerbert
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (71)
What's that make you Marjon? An Outhouse? White on the outside, full of shit on the inside?
Skepticus
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.2 / 5 (5)
Another shining example of convoluted excuse to continue the wasteful ways with no consideration whatsoever for anyone else who share this planet's limited resources, all in the name of "individual rights". What a bunch of magnificient creation of God...or a bunch of nostalgic selfish bastards, if you ask me.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.3 / 5 (26)
Libertarians and Republicans will be rightly the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Get your lists ready and keep them handy.
Callippo
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
As a rule, Republicans support energy-costly solution, Democrats material-costly solution. The cold fusion of hydrogen at nickel could reverse this decision, because of shortage of rare-earth elements.
wwqq
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
As a rule, Republicans support energy-costly solution, Democrats material-costly solution. The cold fusion of hydrogen at nickel could reverse this decision, because of shortage of rare-earth elements.


Just one small problem. The "cold fusion" of hydrogen and nickel is a scam. Simple, cheap, reasonably accurate calorimetry that could be carried out by a high-school student is neither hard, fussy or easy to cheat; why is it never, ever done by Rossi and the other nickel cold-fusion proponents?

Where's the non-crackpot theory for how the nickel cold-fusion machine isn't a gamma-radiation nightmare as one would expect?
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2 / 5 (4)
"So some years ago, Philips formed a coalition with environmental groups including the Natural Resources Defense Council to push for higher standards. "
"The morality of the global threat is one way to push people toward more-efficient lighting, Verhaar says."
http://www.nytime...nted=all
"The person who assumes the mantle of society in order to self-righteously dictate how you must live has carved an idol called "the greater good" and has fallen on his knees to worship it as god. But there is no social good greater than the individual, without whom society itself does not exist. And any man who demands that others sacrifice themselves to a false god deserves only disdain."
http://mises.org/...e-People
Vendi, true to 'progressive' advocates violent coercion instead of persuasion.
Callippo
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (3)
I can ask as well, if the cold fusion is potentially so important for the future of human civilization, why the publicly known and perfectly documented findings of Piantelli and Focardi weren't attempted to replicated during last twenty years? Apparently physicists have more important things to research.

http://newenergyt...tml#dpnr

Where's the non-crackpot theory
IMO the lack of radiation is directly related to the cold fusion mechanism itself - the protons are passing through layer of electrons covering the nickel nuclei, which attract them, thus shielding the repulsive Coulombic barrier of another protons inside of nuclei. The electrons at the bottom of nickel orbitals are highly compressed mutually and they dissipate the energy like blanket. Anyway, the history teach us, the physicists do need any theory of how things works for being able to exploit them (high temperature superconductivity as an example).
Callippo
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
We should realize, the behavior of electron around hydrogen atoms is different from behaviour of electrons around heavier elements. It's well known, the hydrogen atom can be ionized easily with ultraviolet light, but the complete removal of all electrons from heavier atoms would require energies of hard X-rays, which are comparable to energies sufficient for breaking of these nuclei.
It means, inside of heavier atoms the electrons at the bottom of orbitals are behaving like energetic continuum, comparable with its energy density to the energy density at the surface of atom nuclei. It's similar to the situation at the Sun core, where the energy density is comparable to the surface of much denser neutron stars. Such electrons are behaving like cohesive dense fluid, covering the atom nuclei, which cannot be ionized with proton flying to the nuclei so easily. At the situation, when transverse and longitudinal waves of atom orbitals are in mutual resonance, some protons can hit the nuclei.
nxtr
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
As an electrician, I would argue against a ban on incandescents, even though such a ban would be more profitable for me.

As of 2011, and I say this not as an opinion, but as a FACT, there is no replacement LED that has the same color spectrum change through dimming that a halogen or incandescent has.

when I dim my lights at night, I enjoy the fade from bright yellow to gold to orange as the power level changes. This is like color from a paint can. By allowing the government to tell us what bulb to use, we are allowing them to tell us what color we can paint our home.

I vote democrat, and am proud that I do. but this time I agree with the republicans, although not for the same reasons. Light bulb choice continues to be a colorization choice to me. if you really want to save energy and greenhouse gasses, let's require everyone to be a vegetarian. That will save more energy and gas emission than light bulbs. I am already a vegetarian BTW, so it's no big shake for me.

Bookbinder
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: not rated yet
First tell me how you get members of Congress into a light bulb.
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
I vote democrat, and am proud that I do.

if you really want to save energy and greenhouse gasses, let's require everyone to be ....


Why do 'progressives' ALWAYS want to impose their morality?
They oppose people telling them who to marry or who and how to sleep with, but they love to tell everyone else how to eat, what to eat, how big a house, how much water can be flushed, the size of their car.....
FrankHerbert
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (69)
Actually, I think many 'progessives' would be happy to shrink government by getting it out of marriages (and morality) all together.

@nxtr

I'm not claiming any exist, but shouldn't it be fairly straightforward to have multicolored LEDs in the same bulb and mix them in different amounts to emulate incandescent dimming? It probably wouldn't even need to be say, the obvious brute force solution, of equal wattage RGB LEDs. You could probably have a white one for brights, a not quite as bright yellow one, and a dimmer yet orange one. One could just slowly mix with the next as you dim it down.

Since there are people out there that are convinced vacuum tubes can't be emulated sonically (there's a little truth to it), there will be people that will never be satisfied with substitutes, no matter how close.
Callippo
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
The situation isn't really so black and white. Incandescent light bulbs have many applications, where the heat, which they produce is the value added. They're very cheap to produce, not very harmful for life environment. With compare to it, the fluorescent bulbs are of low lifetime, their light is spectrally poor, they cannot be dimmed easily, they're complex and expensive to produce, they contain the mercury and they're require large amount of rare-earth metals, which are embargoed by China. From these graphs it's evident, that the usage of fluorescent bulbs becomes effective just after certain time of usage.

http://s1.hubimg....f520.jpg
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.4 / 5 (25)
"The cold fusion of hydrogen at nickel could reverse this decision, because of shortage of rare-earth elements." - Callippo

It would be truly nice if it weren't a scam. What are you going to think about yourself when you finally realize that it is?
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.4 / 5 (25)
"The situation isn't really so black and white" - Callippo

Yes, and leaches have their uses in modern medicine.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.4 / 5 (25)
http://www.thinkg...ce/831e/

"I'm not claiming any exist, but shouldn't it be fairly straightforward to have multicolored LEDs in the same bulb and mix them in different amounts to emulate incandescent dimming?" - Franck Herbert
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)

It only looks that way to Libertarian/Randite Tards who have no morality.

"Why do 'progressives' ALWAYS want to impose their morality?" - RyggTard

"they love to tell everyone else how to eat, what to eat, how big a house, how much water can be flushed, the size of their car" - RyggTard

It is quite simple Tard boy. Liberals seek to regulate at those points where the sphere of influence of individuals intersect and hence the actions of one impact on the rights of others.

Libertarian/Randite Tards believe that as long as the rights of individuals are violated through market forces, then those violations must be accepted by the individual. Indeed, those rights are then defined as never having existed.

And that in a nutshell is why Libertarian/Randites are nothing but gutter filth.

Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.6 / 5 (27)
"when I dim my lights at night, I enjoy the fade from bright yellow to gold to orange as the power level changes. " - nxtr

Your petty enjoyment now impacts on the survival of mankind. Hence that petty joy will now be regulated out of existence for the betterment of mankind.

Awwwww.... Suck it up.

Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
"Vendi, true to 'progressive' advocates violent coercion instead of persuasion." - RyggTard

Is that why Libertarian Organizations like the CATO institute and the Competitive Enterprise Institute spend their days lying for the benefit of their corporate masters?

What Cato produces is pure Fascism.
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
Fascism is socialism. It is what 'progressives' here advocate, govt control of corporations via heavy regulations.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
Go purchase yourself a dictionary, you pathetic, lying, MORON.

"Fascism is socialism" - RyggTard

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
RyggTard needs to explain the following statement from one of his conservative Libertarian brothers in crime.

"We need to manufacture an (economic) crisis in order to assure that there are no alternatives to a smaller government." - Jeb Bush - Imprimus Magazine - 1995

Here the brother of George Bush is outlining the Libertarian Republican plan to bankrupt the federal government through conservative fiscal policy.

This Republican treason was summed up in the Republican Congressional policy known as "starve the beast".

"Starving the beast" is a fiscal-political strategy of some American conservatives[1][2] to cut taxes, depriving the government of revenue that enables spending on social programs such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, in an effort to create a fiscal budget crisis that would then force the federal government to reduce social and other spending considered undesirable by conservatives.

http://en.wikiped...he_beast
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
Starve the Beast...

Progressive Economist Paul Krugman summarized the strategy in February 2010: "Rather than proposing unpopular spending cuts, Republicans would push through popular tax cuts, with the deliberate intention of worsening the governments fiscal position. Spending cuts could then be sold as a necessity rather than a choice, the only way to eliminate an unsustainable budget deficit." He wrote that the "...beast is starving, as planned..." and that "Republicans insist that the deficit must be eliminated, but theyre not willing either to raise taxes or to support cuts in any major government programs. And theyre not willing to participate in serious bipartisan discussions, either, because that might force them to explain their plan and there isnt any plan, except to regain power."
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
Musolini, the creator of Fasism: "...After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it,....."
http://www.fordha...ism.html
"De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State."
http://mises.org/daily/1937
"He pointed out that it was important to realize that Fascism and Nazism were socialist dictatorships"
http://www.fff.or...200h.asp
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism (Libertarianism) because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
"Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. - Benito Mussolini

Mises is a MORON. Just like you RyggTard
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
It is the 'progressive' that supports and promotes corporatism. Companies like General Electric, whose CEO is working for Obama, paid no US income taxes and benefits from laws like the light bulb ban and solar energy promotions to name just a few.
Recall Enron's CEO, Ken Lay, was pushing for the Kyoto treaty so they could profit from their natural gas.
And all banks are essentially govt owned as they are controlled by the Federal Reserve.
Fascism, socialism, 'progressivism', are all different flavors of statism.
Small 'l' libertarians have not had to change their name as they still promote and defend individual liberty.
'Liberals' and 'progressives' have to keep changing their name as they are eventually recognized as the socialists they are.
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
The theories of the Austrian school of economics, whose members include von Mises and Hayek, have the best predictive record to date.
That is what science is supposed to be about, developing theories and testing those theories.
Disappointed by Marxists and inspired by Einstein, Popper established falsification to define science.

"For Marxism, Popper believed, had been initially scientific, in that Marx had postulated a theory which was genuinely predictive. However, when these predictions were not in fact borne out, the theory was saved from falsification by the addition of ad hoc hypotheses which made it compatible with the facts. By this means, Popper asserted, a theory which was initially genuinely scientific degenerated into pseudo-scientific dogma."
http://plato.stan.../popper/
Govt stimulus theories have failed yet 'progressives' dogmatically believe they will eventually work.
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
" Here's what Ron Paul predicted in 2003 about the bubble that was growing through Fannie and Freddie and the banks: [Video clip] "Ironically, by transferring risk of a widespread credit default, the government increases the likelihood of a painful crash in the housing market. Like all artificially created bubbles, the boom in housing prices cannot last forever. When house prices fall, homeowners will experience difficulty, their equity will be wiped out. The more people who will be investing in the market, the greater the effects across the economy when that bubble bursts. Even Fed Chairman Greenspan has expressed concerns that government subsidies make investors underestimate the risk of investing in Freddie and Fannie." You called it right. That was in 2003, Congressman. 2003, five years and five days before the crash. How did you know?
http://www.lewroc...8.1.html
ryggesogn2
Jul 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
"The Nobel committee explained in a press release about the award:

Perhaps, partly due to this more profound analysis, he was one of the few economists who gave warning of the possibility of a major economic crisis before the great crash came in the autumn of 1929. Von Hayek showed how monetary expansion, accompanied by lending which exceeded the rate of voluntary saving, could lead to a misallocation of resources, particularly affecting the structure of capital. This type of business cycle theory with links to monetary expansion has fundamental features in common with the postwar monetary discussion.

Originally written during 1928 and published in the German language in 1929 Monetary Theory and the Trade Cycle provided the theoretical models that proved an economic crash was coming in the United States and other countries. "
http://www.lewroc...8.1.html
'Progressives' can't accept this as it limits the power of the state.
FrankHerbert
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (69)
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism (Libertarianism) because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


LOL, and this quote isn't out of context like Marjon's. What a dishonest asshole he is.

Hitler put unionists and socialists in concentration camps.
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
Hitler put unionists and socialists in concentration camps.

What a surprise! A socialists use force against other socialists.
Stalin murdered millions of comrades. Mao did, too.
To the socialist, individual people are not as important as the party and the state.
'Progressives' here have also advocated for 'society' at the expense of the individual.
From Hayek, 1933: "The persecution of the Marxists, and of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National Socialism is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final fruit of the anti-liberal [Using liberal in the classical, philosophical sense, meaning liberty, freedom of thought and expression.] "
"If rule by force by some privileged group is to be justified, its superiority has to be accepted for it cannot be proved. "
{And it certainly hasn't been proven by anyone on this site.}
http://www.sodahe...ph-hitle
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.6 / 5 (27)
"It is the 'progressive' that supports and promotes corporatism." - RyggTard

Gosh... Last week you were saying that progressives were anti-business for taxing corporations.

Make up your mind Tard Boy.

In fact it is easy to see which parties are in bed with Corporations. It would be those parties that give the most tax breaks to corporations (Republican), and which parties are employed by corporations to produce propaganda (Libertarian/Randite).

Isn't it the Libertarian/Randite Koch brother Billionares who are supporting all manner of Libertarian Propaganda from the CATO institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, etc?

Why yes it is.

So who are the Fascists here. Clearly the Libertarian/Randite, and Republicans. All anti-progress ideologies.

Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
It is almost like a Christian Conservative wrote the following...

"This anti-pacifist spirit is carried by Fascism even in the life of the individual...The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide; he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, life which would be high and full, lived for oneself, but above all for others - those who are at hand and those who are far distant contemporaries, and those who will come after...

Such a conception of life makes Fascism the complete opposite of that doctrine, the base of the so-called scientific and Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history; according to which the history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production." -- Benito Mussolini
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)

SO now RyggTard has been exposed for using quotes out of context.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.

RyggTard proves no exception to that rule.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
Didn't a Christian Conservative write this?

"Fascism now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect..." - Benito Mussolini
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
"Stalin murdered millions of comrades. Mao did, too." - RyggTard

And Capitalist America has murdered over 30 million civilians over it's history. 3 million in Vietnam alone. Another 1 million in Capitalist Iraq in the early 90's.

And that doesn't even begin to count the tens of millions of people that Capitalism has killed through starvation and disease.

Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
"From Hayek, 1933:" - RyggTard

Yes, and you have just fingered why Hayek is considered a Loon and a Kook by legitimate Historians, just as Misses is considered a Kook and a Loon by contemporary Economists.

Hayek is to history what Erich von Däniken (Charoits of the Gods) is to space science.

I suppose these things illustrate why your Libertarian/Randite ideology is considered Kookie and Lunatic by contemporary thinkers and legitimate historians.

What does that say about you - as a true believer in the Libertarian/Randit faith that has destroyed your own nation?

You do realize don't you, Tard Boy, that the chairman of the FED that allowed the housing baloon to grow and burst was one of your own Libertarian/Randite Brothers.

In fact he was one of Rand's closest friends and ideological supporters.

He is on record as saying that he never believed that corporations would act against their own self interest and hence didn't believe that a significant real-estate bubble existed.

Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (27)
"LOL, and this quote isn't out of context like Marjon's. What a dishonest asshole he is." - FrankHerbert

Have you ever encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar?
FrankHerbert
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (69)
The tell tale sign of a conspiracy theorist is his -need- to warp all evidence to fit his worldview.

Take for example someone who thought he saw a UFO. If the UFO seemingly flew around faster than a human could handle, this would be irrefutable proof (to that person) that the UFO is real. However if the UFO were flying around at perfectly normal speeds, this would not keep the person from believing it was a UFO.

Marjon's neurons are crossed in a similar way.

Any failures of his worldview are the fault of those who disagree with him and not his worldview. If those he disagrees with succeed, they must actually be following something he would approve of, and if something he follows doesn't work it's due to compromising ideology.

For example, a vague out of context quote from Mussolini desperately spun into a criticism of socialism is more valid to him than a direct quote where Mussolini clearly says the opposite. This is Marjon's psychosis showing.
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
"In the North American Review in 1934, the progressive writer Roger Shaw described the New Deal as Fascist means to gain liberal ends. "
"Roosevelt himself called Mussolini admirable and professed that he was deeply impressed by what he has accomplished. The admiration was mutual. In a laudatory review of Roosevelts 1933 book Looking Forward, Mussolini wrote, Reminiscent of Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.Without question, the mood accompanying this sea change resembles that of Fascism."
"A decade later, he (Hoover) wrote in his memoirs that the New Deal introduced to Americans the spectacle of Fascist dictation to business, labor and agriculture, "
http://reason.com...sevelt/1
It is so amusing when 'progressive' accuse libertarians of fascism when it is the 'progressives' who are advocates of fascist policies.
FrankHerbert
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (69)
"Fascist economics supports the existence of private property, the existence of a market economy, and the use of the profit motive."

"Fascism is anti-anarchist, anti-communist, anti-conservative, anti-democratic, anti-individualist, anti-liberal, anti-parliamentary, anti-bourgeois, and anti-proletarian. It entails a distinctive type of anti-capitalism and is typically, with a few exceptions, anti-clerical."

Wikipedia

Marjon, notice I didn't edit out the "anti-capitalist" part.
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.5 / 5 (4)
Wow, Wikipedia is wrong?

Like Fascists, 'progressives' support the existence of private property, as long as it is properly regulated by the state.

But then the property is not really privately owned then when the state can force the owner to do what the state wants with his 'private' property.
Mises discusses this quite well in "Socialism".

The govt bans light bulbs which controls the 'private' property of those the light bulb business.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.4 / 5 (25)
"Wow, Wikipedia is wrong?" - RyggTard

"Fascism: A right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with a totalitarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism. In ancient Rome, the authority of the state was symbolized by the fasces, a bundle of rods bound together (signifying popular unity) with a protruding axe-head (denoting leadership). As such, it was appropriated by Mussolini to label the movement he led to power in Italy in 1922, but was subsequently generalized to cover a whole range of movements in Europe during the inter-war period. " - Oxford Dictionary of Politics

Poor RyggTard. The world just isn't what you Libertarian/Randite Retards demand it is.

Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.6 / 5 (27)
Characteristics of Fascism.

1) Extreme nationalism, the belief that there is a clearly defined nation which has its own distinctive characteristics, culture, and interests, and which is superior to others.

2) An assertion of national declinethat at some point in the mythical past the nation was great, with harmonious social and political relationships, and dominant over others, and that subsequently it has disintegrated, become internally fractious and divided, and subordinate to lesser nations.

3) This process of national decline is often linked to a diminution of the racial purity of the nation. In some movements the nation is regarded as co-extensive with the race (the nation race), while in others, hierarchies of
races are defined generically with nations located within them ( the race nation); in virtually all cases, the view is taken that the introduction of impurities has weakened the nation and been responsible for its plight.
Vendicar_Decarian
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 0.5 / 5 (26)
4) The blame for national decline and/or racial miscegenation is laid at the door of a conspiracy on the part of other nations/races seen as competing in a desperate struggle for dominance.

5) In that struggle, both capitalism and its political form, liberal democracy, are seen as mere divisive devices designed to fragment the nation and subordinate it further in the world order.
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
"The supreme tragedy is still not seen that in Germany it was largely people of good will, who, by their socialist policies, prepared the way for the forces which stand for everything they detest. Few recognize that the rise of fascism and Nazism was not a reaction against the socialist trends of the preceding period but a necessary outcome of those tendencies. Yet it is significant that many of the leaders of these movements, from Mussolini down (and including Laval and Quisling) began as socialists and ended as fascists or Nazis."
"Most of the people whose views influence developments are in some measure socialists. They believe that our economic life should be "consciously directed," that we should substitute "economic planning" for the competitive system. Yet is there a greater tragedy imaginable than that, in our endeavor consciously to shape our future in accordance with high ideals, we should in fact unwittingly produce the very opposite of what we have been striving for? "
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
"There is, in a competitive society, nobody who can exercise even a fraction of the power which a socialist planning board would possess. To decentralize power is to reduce the absolute amount of power, and the competitive system is the only system designed to minimize the power exercised by man over man. Who can seriously doubt that the power which a millionaire, who may be my employer, has over me is very much less than that which the smallest bureaucrat possesses who wields the coercive power of the state and on whose discretion it depends how I am allowed to live and work? "
"In every real sense a badly paid unskilled workman in this country has more freedom to shape his life than many an employer in Germany or a much better paid engineer or manager in Russia. If he wants to change his job or the place where he lives, if he wants to profess certain views or spend his leisure in a particular way, he faces no absolute impediments. "
Hayek, Road to Serfdom, 1944, UK.
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
"Long before the Nazis, too, the German and Italian socialists were using techniques of which the Nazis and Fascists later made effective use. The idea of a political party which embraces all activities of the individual from the cradle to the grave, which claims to guide his views on everything, was first put into practice by the socialists. It was not the Fascists but the socialists who began to collect children at the tenderest age into political organizations to direct their thinking. It was not the Fascists but the socialists who first thought of organizing sports and games, football and hiking, in party clubs where the members would not be infected by other views. It was the socialists who first insisted that the party member should distinguish himself from others by the modes of greeting and the forms of address. It was they who, by their organization of "cells" and devices for the permanent supervision of private life, created the prototype of the totalitarian party." Hayek
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
"Once you admit that the individual is merely a means to serve the ends of the higher entity called society or the nation, most of those features of totalitarianism which horrify us follow of necessity. From the collectivist standpoint intolerance and brutal suppression of dissent, deception and spying, the complete disregard of the life and happiness of the individual are essential and unavoidable. Acts which revolt all our feelings, such as the shooting of hostages or the killing of the old or sick, are treated as mere matters of expediency; the compulsory uprooting and transportation of hundreds of thousands becomes an instrument of policy approved by almost everybody except the victims. To be a useful assistant in the running of a totalitarian state, therefore, a man must be prepared to break every moral rule he has ever known if this seems necessary to achieve the end set for him."
http://jim.com/hayek.htm
ryggesogn2
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
"By the time Hitler came to power, liberalism was dead in Germany. And it was socialism that had killed it. To many who have watched the transition from socialism to fascism at close quarters the connection between the two systems has become increasingly obvious, but in the democracies the majority of people still believe that socialism and freedom can be combined. They do not realize that democratic socialism, the great utopia of the last few generations, is not only unachievable but that to strive for it produces something utterly different - the very destruction of freedom itself. As has been aptly said: "What has always made the state a hell on earth has been precisely that man has tried to make it his heaven." "
http://jim.com/hayek.htm
FrankHerbert
Jul 24, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (69)
"Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies, though a majority of scholars hold it to be a far right form of politics."

"though a majority of scholars hold it to be a far right form of politics."

"a majority of scholars hold it to be a far right form of politics."

"scholars hold it to be a far right form of politics."

"a far right form of politics."

Looks like Hayek is an old crank who should be put to bed.
ryggesogn2
Jul 25, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
Hayek explained his rationale. Hayek experienced the socialism.
Where is the rationale of your 'scholars'?
Eikka
Jul 25, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
From the article:

"This is a sore spot with people," said the Florida Republican. "My constituents overwhelmingly don't want the government to decide what kind of light bulb they want."


Let's remove the fluff and speak clearly:

"My constituents overwhelmingly don't want the government to decide what kind of pollution costs they want to impose on their fellow humans."


People are already paying for their incandescent bulbs in higher energy costs to run them. What more do you need?

No. The problem is that the industry doesn't want to see the rise in energy prices that reflects the waste. They want to make the consumers use less energy by law, so it would be cheaper to the industries.

In other words, restrict the people's right to do their own thinking to increase profits.

It's the hallmark of crony capitalism that abuses a nanny state that believes the people are too stupid to count. As soon as LEDs and CFLs are cheaper and/or better, most will switch anyways.
Eikka
Jul 25, 2011

Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
And while the common CFL or LED bulb on the market is still more expensive to buy and offers less quality and utility, then what right does anyone have to force people to use them?

Why should the consumers pay more and recieve less while the corporations and business don't have to compromize anything on this matter for the common goal of reducing energy use?

And I say use instead of waste, because the energy is not wasted when it produces something measurably better. The extra energy use is simply the price for that better quality of lighting that the consumers want to have.

Better color rendering index, better heat/cold resistance, less toxic chemicals, less electric noise generated down the power lines, better dimming characteristics, cheaper to deploy in many cases like the light in your closet that gets turned on just rarely, where a CFL would suffer and a LED would cost too much...

Taking away that choise and responsibility isn't just. You are treating people like children.
ryggesogn2
Jul 25, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
You are treating people like children.

That is the 'progressive', central planning way.
lighthouse10
Aug 02, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
RE your Intro - rather:

How many members of Congress should it take to screw in a light bulb?
None.
How many citizens should be allowed to choose?
Everyone.

RE
"LEDs are the future"
"Demand for standard bulbs has dropped"

Good - so WHY ban incandescents then?
Presumably people will buy all these other great lights anyway.
"Energy guzzling" radio tubes werre not banned just because transistors came long... and retain advantages in certain uses.

So:
1. People don't prefer incandescents = no need to ban them, little savings, yet still of unique value in some situations.
2. People prefer incandescents = again, rather odd to ban them in that case

- and yes, it is a ban, effectively on all incandescents before 2020....see first comment at the top.
.
lighthouse10
Aug 02, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
RE "Big Savings"

Hardly "Big Savings" from banning bulbs that you say people would NOT be buying anyway, Curtis!
Only "big savings" by banning what people would have bought, if they could!

No big savings in any case:

1. Only 1-2% grid electricity saved, DOE etc data =
ceolas.net/#li171x with more relevant and significant
generation, grid distribution and consumption savings alternatives.

2. No large power plant would be saved, even with supposed energy savings, due to constant base load requirements: ceolas.net/#li172x

3. A typical CFL has twice the so-called power factor (not same as power rating) of an incandescent, which means it
uses twice the energy at the power plant to what your meter says - which you still eventually have to pay for.
(continued)
FrankHerbert
Aug 02, 2011

Rank: 1.7 / 5 (67)
Better read up lighthouse10.

The fact that CFLs have a power factor that is substantially smaller than 1 does not take away from the fact that they are a better choice than incandescent bulbs. Despite the fact that many a cradle-to-crave environmental impact analysis for CFLs on the web is based on assumptions of dubious origin, there is no doubt that their overall energy balance is superior to incandenscent light.

http://cdonner.co...-cfl.htm
lighthouse10
Aug 02, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Frank Herbert
thanks for reply!

However, rather than your Donner's Drama page,
may I in turn suggest you read up on the issue from the experts:
US Dept of Energy (www1.eere.energy....405.pdf) or, more directly relevant here, Sylvania light bulb maker http://www.ee.bgu...tor1.pdf

= Yes, an unmetered cost, but that users of course pay for in higher rates etc

Even your linked page indirectly acknowledges it:
" Utilities do not charge residential customers for apparent power.However, apparent power requires **additional current** flowing across the grid, and thus creates distribution losses in transformers and power lines in the form of heat. Therefore, utilities have **great interest** in minimizing apparent power in the grid. They require industrial plants and other large consumers of electric power to take measures for compensating their power factor, or if that is not possible, will **charge** a penalty
lighthouse10
Aug 02, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Besides,
the energy savings from a switchover are small anyway from all the other reasons given...

Moreover:
REGARDLESS of energy savings,
Consumers as a whole hardly save MONEY anyway -
not just in having to pay more for the light bulbs as an initial cost (or being forced to pay for them, via taxpayer CFL programs)
- but also because electricity companies are being taxpayer subsidised or allowed to raise Bill rates to compensate for any reduced electricity use, as already seen both federally and in California, Ohio etc,
and before them in the UK and other European countries
( as referenced ceolas.net/#californiacfl )
.
Rank 5 /5 (1 vote)
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