Environmental pollution in China decreases

china pollution
Credit: CC0 Public Domain

For decades pollution in China has paralleled economic growth. But this connection has been weakened in recent years, according to a new international research study published in the Science Advances journal.

The study was conducted by an international team of researchers from five countries, including Deliang Chen, a professor of physical meteorology at the University of Gothenburg and a Coordinating Lead Author of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

"Our research shows that increased environmental awareness and investments in China over the past decade have produced results," says Chen.

Economic growth has come at a high price

In the late 1970s China's economy began expanding, and the expansion accelerated during the following decades. Environmental kept pace with economic growth.

"But the analysis of our data shows a weakening of that relationship for China starting in 1995," Chen says.

Researchers have studied statistics for economic growth, , regional differences, the gap between urban and , social inequality, land-based impacts on the ocean, equality in education, health care and living standards in China during the 1977-2017 period. The research results are based on huge amounts of "big data."

"In our study we have looked at the data from all areas based on the UN's 17 Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). As researchers, we normally tend to look at our own data, but in this study, we have used existing data from many different sources."

Major challenges remain, despite progress

The study shows that in China as a whole has begun to decline, but that greenhouse gas emissions have continued to increase.

The study also shows that China has improved in 12 of the 17 SDGs during the last 40 years, while major problems still exist in the other five.

"China's has not come without great sacrifice and with negative consequences for the environment and climate. But it is still encouraging to note these improvements. At the same time, it reminds us of the urgent need to solve major problems such as increased greenhouse gas emissions and inequality of income.

Many believe that economic progress and pollution have to go hand in hand. But our study shows that this connection has become weaker in recent years in China. And it provides a little more hopeful picture. This hope and the lessons learned in China can be interesting for other countries that also need to be developed."

Big data is digitally stored information so massive (usually terabytes and petabytes) that it is difficult to process with traditional database methods.


Explore further

China may be on track to meet its carbon emissions goals early

More information: Yonglong Lu et al, Forty years of reform and opening up: China's progress toward a sustainable path, Science Advances (2019). DOI: 10.1126/sciadv.aau9413
Journal information: Science Advances

Citation: Environmental pollution in China decreases (2019, September 13) retrieved 20 October 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-09-environmental-pollution-china-decreases.html
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Sep 13, 2019
Does anybody who isn't Chinese believe this twaddle?

Sep 13, 2019
This scenic photograph
Of a misty Chinese day
Is a demonstration
To all the gases that are emitted in to this air we breathe
That we cannot see
Fore if you light a fire in a closed room
All the black smoke and flames you see
Are what you cannot see if you burn it outside
Fore this occurs in billions every day of the week

For this atmosphere
like this room
Is a closed system
This atmosphere is this closed room
Filling up with this black smoke every time we light a match!

Sep 13, 2019
At least this article didn't completely fail to mention CO2 emissions, though it did try to sweep them under the carpet.

Sep 13, 2019
And what is China doing about its plastics pollution? Micro plastics are now in all of the rivers, lakes, oceans in the world - and in your drinking water - so it is said. But the main problem to be most concerned about is - wait for it ---- CO2 ---- yes, that inglorious mixture of one atom of Carbon and 2 atoms of Oxygen that plants and trees would KILL to be able to acquire from the atmosphere. But now the word is out that it's OK to shortchange plant life forms and to cheat them out of their daily dose of life-giving CO2.
So, the supply of CO2 in the air will be diminished because some people BELIEVE that the gas is causing the Earth to warm - even in the normally hot summer months.

There will soon be a movie made called, "Plastic Man", a new superhero that is capable of shape-shifting and eats nothing but plastics.

Sep 14, 2019
So quick as a flash, as though this Plastic is not there

All this Plastic
that flows
in Rivers
from our Supermarkets
flows out our DIY stores
flows out our Factories
fore all this Plastic
flows in our homes
from these stores
hidden from sight in the boots our cars, as though it is not there
where we put this Plastic on our shelves
hidden from sight, as thought is not there
then when its snacking time
we get these Plastic packaging down from these shelves
then quick as a flash
so fast we cannot see
so fast we cannot see this packaging
we cannot see this packaging, as it flies in the waste basket
into this waste basket, as though it is not there
as we munch on these delicious contents
we go into the kitchen
to empty, this over flowing waste basket
for as quick as a flash, we tip it in the recycling bin
So quick, we did not see this Plastic, as though, this plastic is not there

So why, when it's in this Plastic Recycling Bin, is this Plastic, Flowing into our Rivers, Lakes and Seas?

Sep 14, 2019
So quick as a flash, as though this Plastic is not there

As the vast majority of plastic
is fore the ordinary consumer in the street
tomatoes in plastic to packets of needles in plastic
to electrical appliances in plastic packaging
to those girly boyshorts with their plastic sown on labels and plastic advertising labels
for these labels our scrumptious ladies as quick as a flash, cut these labels, in to the waste bin
So quick do our scrumptious ladies let flies in to the waste bin as though this plastic is not there

For this light hearted boyshorts tale
clearly demonstrate this minutia, this plastic trail has led
fore these plastic labels, ladies have a thin plastic string threaded through these boyshorts
so thin is this string is difficult see
fore ladies, it is difficult to recycle this plastic string
so it passes easily from our green recycling bins
And flows into our rivers, lakes and seas

To be eaten by poor unsuspecting dolphins, these majestic creatures of these high seas

Sep 14, 2019
Nothing like some nice transparent downvoting. Thanks

There is only one thing to be downvoting for.

Sep 14, 2019
As people become more prosperous, their demand for luxuries increases; luxuries like clean air, clean water, green spaces, etc.

When you're dirt poor or transitioning to prosperity, your main concern is survival, not whether your air and water are perfectly clean, or that you have parks and recreational areas in your immediate vicinity.

"Our research shows that increased environmental awareness and investments in China over the past decade have produced results"

No. China becoming more prosperous has produced such results.

Sep 14, 2019
Does anybody who isn't Chinese believe this twaddle?


I travel to Zhengzhou in central China regularly where I see a marked improvement in air quality. Whilst I'm there, I travel to northern Shaanxi where I see massive re-afforestation going on.
Unlike I Reckon's race based view, mine has at least some basis in facts.

Sep 14, 2019
With ~billion or more souls in China, including Muslim Uighur and some who claim Jewish descent, as well as those who are Christian converts, the atheists in the Communist regime aka government of Beijing were not too concerned about the air quality that their subjects had to breathe. After all, communist bureaucrats were able to breathe purified air with a good a/c inside their homes and government buildings. And if, by chance, they had to step outside, there were face masks available to cleanse the air before inhaling.
So the smoke stacks pumped out the poisons and people died.
But now, the communist government in Beijing are feeling some bit of pressure from western countries, for when the wind blows across the Pacific Ocean from China, it blows that poison over to California. And everybody KNOWS that the liberal/socialist state of California doesn't want Chinese CO2, methane and other chemicals wafting into Los Angeles and other Socialist California cities. They want none of it

Sep 14, 2019
"...inequality of income"? Would they have the yearly income of the street cleaners and chicken pluckers be the same as the scientists working at Beijing University, or the income of a business owner or a communist bureaucrat?

Sep 15, 2019
Does anybody who isn't Chinese believe this twaddle?


Obviously the Swedish University of Gothenburg do, but so does the several authors in UK, as well as the author in Germany and US.

"Yonglong Lu1,2,3,*, Yueqing Zhang1,2, Xianghui Cao1,2, Chenchen Wang1,2, Yichao Wang1,2, Meng Zhang1,2, Robert C. Ferrier4, Alan Jenkins5, Jingjing Yuan1,2, Mark J. Bailey5, Deliang Chen6, Hanqin Tian7, Hong Li5,8, Ernst Ulrich von Weizsäcker9 and Zhongxiang Zhang10
1State Key Laboratory of Urban and Regional Ecology, Research Center for Eco-Environmental Sciences, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100085, China.
2University of Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100049, China.
3Key Laboratory of the Ministry of Education for Coastal Wetland Ecosystems, College of the Environment and Ecology, Xiamen University, Fujian 361102, China.
4James Hutton Institute, Aberdeen AB15 8QH, Scotland, UK.
5Centre for Ecology & Hydrology, Wallingford, Oxon, OX 10 8BB, UK.
6Regional Climate Group ..."

Sep 15, 2019
"... Department of Earth Sciences, University of Gothenburg, 405 30 Gothenburg, Sweden.
7International Center for Climate and Global Change Research, and School of Forestry and Wildlife Sciences, Auburn University, Auburn, AL 36849, USA.
8Lancaster Environment Centre, University of Lancaster, Lancaster LA14YQ, UK.
9University of Freiburg, Postfach 1547, Emmendingen 79305, Germany.
10Ma Yinchu School of Economics, Tianjin University, 92 Weijin Road, Tianjin 300072, China."

Let me rephrase that question: does anyone that is not a racist and/or ideologue believe the twaddle of I Reckon?

No, I did not think so.

Sep 15, 2019
Here is by the way another recent report that correlate with the one here:

"Researchers from China, France and the USA have evaluated China's success in stemming emissions from its coal-fired power plants (CPPs). ... Dr Fei Liu, from the Universities Space Research Association, Goddard Earth Sciences Technology and Research, USA, is the study's corresponding author. She said: "Our results show that overall, China's efforts on emission reductions, air quality improvement and human health protection from CPPS between 2005-2020 were effective. ... This suggests similar measures could be taken in countries such as India, to enable the reduction of emissions alongside rapid economic development."

[ Published in Environmental Research Letters, 2019; 14 (9): 094016 DOI: 10.1088/1748-9326/ab3bae ; https://www.scien...0749.htm ]

Seeing the affiliation of an author here with IPCC, I feel sure that they wanted this and that it will go into the overall report.

Sep 15, 2019
china buys every scrap of coal the US can sell her.

If the climate alarmists cannot act as if it's an emergency why should anyone else?

Sep 15, 2019

If the climate alarmists cannot act as if it's an emergency why should anyone else?


But they do act as if it is an emergency.
https://www.green...oal-port

But then - if I showed shootist how the indigenous rights movement is trying to resist the destruction being caused by corporate/political greed and disregard for the health of our Earth -

https://www.googl...ie=UTF-8

shootist would start screaming about socialist/communist/liberal/bedwetting/bleeding heart sissies or something similar.

Sep 15, 2019
People staring up -- Wow! The sky is blue. [5 mins later] Noooooo...it's gone. {loosely translated from Mandarin}

Prof. Deliang Chen - Environmental pollution in China decreases.

Sep 15, 2019
Holy crap, when did this site get so flooded with trolls? Seems kinda fishy to honestly. Kinda a directed effort to muddle intellectual discourse IMO.

Sep 15, 2019
@overcurious
Holy crap, when did this site get so flooded with trolls?
it was rapidly declining just a scant 5 years ago, but when ScienceX took over and got rid of moderation or the actual enforcement of it's own guidelines (linked below the comment box) it drove away almost all of the legitimate science posters and allowed the trolls and pseudoscience crowd to build and thrive (though in all honesty, some of them are multiple socks of ancient trolls who lurked here from the beginning)

test it yourself: start reporting all of the trolls and pseudoscience posters per the guidelines
see what happens

it's a now just place to watch the irrational thought process of the delusional, the religious fanatic and the troll, for the most part


Sep 15, 2019
Holy crap, when did this site get so flooded with trolls? Seems kinda fishy to honestly. Kinda a directed effort to muddle intellectual discourse IMO.
--overcurious
Please permit my intrusion into your existential crisis..er..conceited ignorance.
A quick perusal of your postings, more accurately, trolling, conclusively reveal that you lack the intellect to fathom --
1/ that you are the troll.
2/ what intellectual discourse is.

I cannot definitely say, the day you joined, was when this site became flooded with trolls, but, give yourself a pat on the back, for contributing.

So, devoid of the capacity to recognize itself, yet so exuberant with misconceived confidence, the ignorant troll must imagine that there be value to its existence, when it vainly attempts to tarnish contrarians with its own stain.

Sep 15, 2019
Capitalism thrives on competition. The healthiest capitalist economies are those in direct competition with equals. Without that competition, capitalism rots and dies. Therefore if this competition doesnt exist, it must be created.

The Chinese economy has been subsidized by allowing it to feed off western markets using unfair trade practices. It has been allowed to 'steal' technology to make it an able competitor. Its brightest students have been educated in western schools. Its burgeoning industries have been allowed to pollute and contaminate.

A cold engine burns rich and dirty until it reaches the proper operating temperature.

The quality of Chinese goods has improved. Its R&D base now rivals or surpasses the west. The quality of living has improved markedly. And most notably, its population growth has declined to sustainable levels.

This is all obvious. And it is of course evidence that the world is a Managed Place. Nothing important 'just happens' here.

Sep 15, 2019
and got rid of moderation
A post in one of the other threads was actually removed. I haven't seen that in quite awhile. Anonym*** spam is still ignored.
or the actual enforcement of it's own guidelines (linked below the comment box)
-Well it never really did that, did it? Godders have never been banned.

In contrast I just got kicked out of another site for suggesting that NASA was a military agency.

Re china, its obvious that it has achieved its goals because we have now been given a president with exactly the right political posture to end subsidies. Similarly, alien import quotas have now been reached and it is now time to close the border. Imagine any other politician trying to do that.

Demographics is an applied science. Demographics runs the world

Sep 15, 2019
trying to resist the destruction being caused by corporate/political greed and disregard for the health of our Earth


Things are better than ever before in human history.

You are simply an ignoramus.

Sep 15, 2019
@Otto
Well it never really did that, did it?
yes, on occasion
I had a couple of comments deleted
Godders have never been banned
interesting, eh?
And the "special" religious types (like the eu acolytes) also don't get deleted... just zeph and a select few others
for suggesting that NASA was a military agency
it's not
https://www.loc.g...gov.html

It provides a service to various military and alphabet agencies, but it reports directly to the POTUS, kinda like social security, but with less old people


Sep 16, 2019
It is.
reports directly to the POTUS
So does the military.
NASA:
1Created in response to Sputnik (mil threat)
("...military necessity that this challenge [Sputnik] be met by an energetic program..." dryden)
2Original astronauts were all mil officers
3Recce and establishing outposts are military ops
4Original boosters were all ICBMs
5Shuttles designed primarily to lift spysats
6Shuttle selected over much cheaper and safer capsule design BECAUSE of mil reqts which can now be done by robotic X-37B
7Vandenberg was meant to launch shuttles
8Original USSR station had anti-Gemini capsule cannon
9Vehicles all milspec which explains budget and schedule overruns
Contrast musk civilian starship construction in a field
10Compare to Columbus/Magellan voyages which were military recce
11"KH-11s are believed to resemble the Hubble Space Telescope in size and shape..."
12ISS a joint mil bridgehead

-Etc. The peaceful PR cover was meant to sell the multibillion dollar expense to the public.

Sep 16, 2019
Does anybody who isn't Chinese believe this twaddle?
I Reckon

Do all idiots like yourself deny the statistical facts presented to them?

Sep 16, 2019
NASA:
13"Arthur Rudolph, a Nazi scientist who, along with his mentor Wernher von Braun, was amongst a number of Germans ushered into the US as part of "Operation Paperclip" after the war."
14Both china and USSR/Russia space programs are military
15 X-15 design testbed for shuttle and SR-71 spy plane
16NASA vehicles were all built by mil contractors
17The similarities of the Webb scope and a laser weapons platform
https://books.goo...;f=false

-Had the cold war heated up, NASAs primarily military nature would have become clear.

Sep 16, 2019
18Canaveral is an AIR FORCE BASE
https://en.m.wiki..._Station
19"NASA's first manned spaceflight program was prepared for launch from Canaveral by U.S. Air Force crews"
20It makes much more sense that a military operation be altered to include civilian missions, than the other way around. National security wouldn't be compromised by putting military space activities in civilian hands.

Sep 16, 2019
I want to be really clear here.

The problem with China isn't their particulate pollution and other smog; that's their own problem to deal with, and how it impinges on their neighbors. The big problem is CO2; the US has this problem too, and since I vote here I am doing everything I can. But it's not going to matter much if China doesn't stop spewing CO2.

Feel-good stories about how they're cleaning up the smog are nice, but until they start cleaning up the CO2 it's not gonna matter much. And the more stories like this distract from that, the more harm these stories do. So yay for China, they're cleaning up the smog. Now can we get to the real problem, please?

After all, if they shut down all those coal plants, it would take care of *both* problems.

Sep 16, 2019
Otto
The healthiest capitalist economies are those in direct competition with equals
Which economies would you be referring to here Otto? A very appropriate criticism of capitalism - is that it cares nothing for human rights, or the environment. So sending little children down coal mines - to enrich the coffers of the capitalist oligarchs - is very capitalist. This also is very capitalist - https://www.googl...bih=1089

I am not in any way an advocate of socialism or communism. But also not blind to the failings of the current capitalist system - that causes great social and environmental devastation.

Sep 16, 2019
Sorry greengotts I dont usually respond to party spiel. Say something not in your handbook.

Sep 16, 2019
More transparent Chinese hacker downvotes. Thanks! It's nice when people make it obvious I scored on them.

Sep 16, 2019
As people become more prosperous, their demand for luxuries increases; luxuries like clean air, clean water, green spaces, etc.

Funny... I thought those were the basics...

Sep 16, 2019
Sorry greengotts I dont usually respond to party spiel. Say something not in your handbook
translation - you asked me a question that would have revealed how lazy my thinking really is (you know - capitalism, capitalism rah rah rah rah) - so I will just say something meaningless.

Which 'handbook' does Otto think I quote from? I have honestly stated that I am not a supporter of socialism, or communism. Independent thinking is such a conundrum for people who think they can think - but really can't. Maybe the MAGA hat is too tight.

Sep 16, 2019
More transparent Chinese hacker downvotes. Thanks! It's nice when people make it obvious I scored on them.

Da Schitebo, the knob gobbling jackass, brays.
You know, since being dumped by your butt buddy, your desperation for man meat has made you even dumber. Trolling this forum ain't gonna score you any, but a few downvotes when you go overboard with your stupidity.

LMAO.

Sep 16, 2019
@Otto
So does the military
and it falls nowhere in the Military chain of command (see link)
Created in response to Sputnik...12ISS a joint mil ...
like I said, "It provides a service to various military and alphabet agencies"

it's a government agency, not a military one, otherwise, the Social Security administration could be considered "military" as it also reports directly to POTUS

EDIT - as a government agency it *can* be used for military purpose, just like NOAA, but that doesn't make them military, just providing a service *to the military*
END EDIT

the military agency that covers military action in space is the USAF, not NASA - NASA just gives them the tools to do so. they're like Boeing: They build military and spy equipment as a tool for the military, but that doesn't make them military
NASAs primarily military nature
NOAA also provides for the military - does that make them military?

Sep 16, 2019
And what is China doing about its plastics pollution?
Surveillance_Egg_Unit

And what are WE doing about OUR plastic problem? Don't know what's you point here. Why pick on China and not, say, Spain? or USA?

---- CO2 ---- yes, that inglorious mixture of one atom of Carbon and 2 atoms of Oxygen that plants and trees would KILL to be able to acquire from the atmosphere.
Nobody denies plants need CO2 and produce O2. Your point?

But now the word is out that it's OK to shortchange plant life forms and to cheat them out of their daily dose of life-giving CO2.
Stopping our CO2 pollution will NOT make plants short of CO2 as there would still be more than enough CO2 for them left in the atmosphere. You are talking complete crap.

Sep 16, 2019
and it falls nowhere in the Military chain of command (see link)
And what makes you think I dont know this? And what makes you think the govt tells you about everything it does and why?

NASA has always functioned primarily as a military agency, regardless of the civilian fluff.
the military agency that covers military action in space is the USAF, not NASA - NASA just gives them the tools to do so
For decades the shuttle was basically the only way for the military to orbit major payloads critical to national security. During the cold war, when its budget was highest.
https://en.wikipe...l_budget
NOAA also provides for the military - does that make them military?
Probably.

The interstate highway system was built in response to the need to transport equipt and personnel rapidly across the continent. Same as the autobahn. Only difference is, hitler didnt need to hide the fact. One of many examples.

Sep 16, 2019
NASA just gives them the tools to do so
Really? Do you know how this sounds?

NASA does not GIVE the military anything. NASA vehicles have always been milspec, including the shuttle and the SLS, designed primarily for military missions and to transport military equipt and personnel.

However this may be about to change.

"In 2018, it was announced that U.S. Space Command would be reestablished as a unified combatant command. Intentions for re-activation and approval from Congress was announced on August 29, 2019."

-We'll see what NASA looks like once the military has packed up its equipt and personnel and moved on. No wait - canaveral is an air force base...

Sep 16, 2019
This is interesting

"The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Officer Corps, known informally as the NOAA Corps, is one of seven federal uniformed services of the United States, and operates under the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)"

"NOAA Corps Officers are paid on a military pay scale. The pay amount is based on rank, time in service, marital status, and where you live."

"NOAA Corps has two venues to transition from another branch of service:
Inter-Service Transfer: Commissioned officers retain their rank at 100%. Enlisted and Reserve personnel are not eligible for Inter-Service Transfers.
New Recruit: must be fully discharged or a conditional release authorized prior to the start of BOTC training."

-Sure sounds like military to me.

Sep 16, 2019
Milspec
https://www.nasas...section/

Civilian
https://www.tesla...nk-dome/

-The difference between C-17s and greyhound busses.

Sep 16, 2019
@Otto
Sure sounds like military to me
if "sounds like" was equivalent to "is" then we would have an electric sun, Mills and Zeph would have built their over-unity devices and the x-tian sky-faerie would have turned you into a newt long ago, and you would not have gotten better
[NOAA...] Probably
is your local doppler radar MIL-SPEC?
The interstate highway system
So, if the gov't gets involved, it's military?
Does that make Yellowstone Moose military or just the predators?

after all, since the gov't doesn't tell us everything it does...

Sep 17, 2019
So, if the gov't gets involved, it's military?
Does that make Yellowstone Moose military or just the predators?
Mooses aren't a vital national security concern. Space is. The impetus for NASA was military from the beginning.

"On January 14, 1958, NACA Director Hugh Dryden published "A National Research Program for Space Technology" stating:
"It is of great urgency and importance to our country both from consideration of our prestige as a nation as well as military necessity that this challenge [Sputnik] be met by an energetic program of research and development for the conquest of space ...""

"Elements of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency and the United States Naval Research Laboratory were incorporated into NASA."
Cont>

Sep 17, 2019
Although the official spiel was that military and civilian would be kept separate...

"While this new federal agency would conduct all non-military space activity, the Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in February 1958 to develop space technology for military application."

-in reality all major mil space activity was conducted through NASA. This includes missions which at first glance might look civilian, like the apollo program or the Hubble or the ISS. But these all played a vital strategic role in establishing a presence in space first and gaining experience in how to operate there.

The de facto military nature of NASA could not be clearer with the shuttle, which for decades was the only vehicle capable of performing both potential and actual military missions in space. It was not a civilian vehicle adapted for military use; it was a military vehicle used for civilian purposes (which the mil was never happy with)

National security always takes precedence.

Sep 17, 2019
is your local doppler radar MIL-SPEC?
Its not local, its national
https://radar.weather.gov/

-And yes, if it supports national security interests then of course its 'milspec'.

"NOAA Corps officers operate and manage NOAA's fleet of ships and aircraft and serve in positions of leadership and command in NOAA, the Department of Commerce (DOC), and essential positions in other agencies as well as in the military during times of war or national emergency."

Sep 17, 2019
@Otto
Mooses aren't a vital national security concern. Space is
using your logic we could say that the Farm Credit Administration (FCA) is military because they provide funding and more to the infrastructure which supplies our troops with food, etc
Its not local, its national
the network is national, the doppler radar itself is local

moreover, the Government specs mirror the MIL-SPEC in most cases

being "MIL-SPEC" has no bearing at all whatsoever on being "military" as the specifications, which can mirror government specs and regulations, relate only to the reasons or specific directions on how something is built

the "MIL-SPEC" on aircraft mirror FAA regs on fully 70% of parts, so does that make all civilian aircraft military? No. it makes them built similar to MIL-SPEC only

Sep 17, 2019
@Otto
in reality all major mil space activity was conducted through NASA
so, (seriously) does this mean that, with NASA using SpaceX or other agencies, then SpaceX and the other agencies are also military?

the US Gov't and Military both use standardization in almost everything it does. Being standardized allows commonality, reliability, compatibility between systems, ensuring products meet certain requirements and overall interoperability - (Dave Gibson)

being made to a standard, regardless of MIL-SPEC, gov spec or other designation is no different than civilian manufacturing processes that make to a standard, making your Peanut Butter military per your above

Sep 17, 2019
does this mean that, with NASA using SpaceX or other agencies, then SpaceX and the other agencies are also military?
No, like I say, they are diverging. Columbus' voyages were military recon. They determined the best routes and locations for staging the invasion of the western hemisphere. Civilian colonies were established after bridgehead secured.
the US Gov't and Military both use standardization in almost everything it does
I showed you the difference between spacex and Boeing/ Lockheed Martin construction methods. The starship is civilian transport; the SLS/Orion are military hardware.

Will starships be used for military missions? Sure. Does the military currently use civilian transport? Absolutely. Commercial ships were commandeered during ww2 to transport troops and material. The lusitania had a belly full of arms, which is why it was sunk.

But the ULA system is designed to operate in a hostile environment. Note the full cowl over Orion during launch.

Sep 17, 2019
This is interesting

"KH-11s are believed to resemble the Hubble Space Telescope in size and shape, as the satellites were shipped in similar containers. Their length is believed to be 19.5 meters, with a diameter of up to 3 meters.[5][23] A NASA history of the Hubble,[24] in discussing the reasons for switching from a 3-meter main mirror to a 2.4-meter design, states: "In addition, changing to a 2.4-meter mirror would lessen fabrication costs by using manufacturing technologies developed for military spy satellites."

-IOW science didn't dictate the configuration of the hubble, the military did. NASA just got 2 surplus spysats...

"NASA's repurposed spy telescope is ready for the next stage of development... The $3.2 billion Wide Field Infrared Survey Telescope (WFIRST) recently passed its preliminary design review, which means that it met all of the budgetary, schedule and performance requirements for the team to begin finalizing the design."
Cont>

Sep 17, 2019
Kind of reminds me of the old Edmund's scientific store in NJ, and their great catalogue.
https://en.m.wiki...poration

Clerks all wore lab coats. They had a big room in back full of old military surplus science-related stuff like generators and field phones and big lenses. Ww2 posters, 1930s music playing.

You can imagine in coming decades when many players start to settle the moon and elsewhere, the desire to keep tabs on them will increase. Scopes like hubble can and will be retasked for surveillance and support of military ops.

Sep 17, 2019
@Otto
IOW science didn't dictate the configuration of the hubble, the military did
erm... then the military either f*cked up or forgot what they were working on

"The surface of the Earth is whizzing by as Hubble orbits, and the pointing system, designed to track the distant stars, cannot track an object on the Earth. The shortest exposure time on any of the Hubble instruments is 0.1 seconds, and in this time Hubble moves almost half a mile, about 700 meters. A picture Hubble took of Earth would be completely streaked" - NASA
Kind of reminds me of the old Edmund's scientific
I used to order from them all the time
Scopes like hubble can and will be retasked for surveillance and support of military ops
not unless they reservice and redesign it

Buying a cheaper mirror because they're already in production doesn't mean the satellite as a whole is designed for military use - it just means they saved money (and not by switching to GEICO)


Sep 17, 2019
Hubble had a different mission but shared the same config and perhaps hardware. Wheel nerd not be reinvented. And it may have been testbed/proof of concept for other things...

"Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) es -
timates retargeting to require as little as "0.5 seconds for new
targets requiring small angle changes,"19 this seems optimis-
tic. A point of reference that runs counter to this claim is the
Hubble space telescope, which has a three-second settling
time for even the smallest adjustments and takes several min -
utes for retargeting. While it is not designed to be a weapon,
the Hubble space telescope is much smaller, with a single-
piece mirror that is only 2.4 meters in diameter."

-The point being, military needs dictated the design, not science.

"All KH-11 satellites launched between 1976 and 2013 are in either of two standard planes in Sun-synchronous orbits."

-Designed to fit in the shuttle.

Sep 17, 2019
The surface of the Earth is whizzing by as Hubble orbits, and the pointing system, designed to track the distant stars, cannot track an object on the Earth
Like I say the earth is not the only thing the military wants to watch.
https://www.nasa....oon.html

-We can also assume that the military does not disclose the full potential or purpose of its hardware.

-The soviets could have begun lunar ops soon after we got there. Hubble-scale tech takes decades to develop and perfect. NASA now has an array of space- and ground-based scopes suitable for surveilling activity across the inner system, just when it is needed.

We can now track and image asteroids as well as attempts to reach and redirect them. Impactors pose probably the greatest threat to global security.

Sep 17, 2019
military needs dictated the design, not science
not on the HST

if the military needs dictated the design they would have used a shorter exposure time, had different (or additional) instrumentation and better tracking, etc

science dictated the design and simply used what was available to cut costs

saying that HST using MIL equipment makes it usable for military options is like saying the civilian Humvee can do everything the MIL humvee can do (speaking from experience: it can't. the civilian version is comfier and has more bells and whistles, like radio, electric windows, etc, but it's shite when being shot at, doesn't have the same offroad capabilities and ya can't mount a 50 cal on the roof without voiding the warranty)
We can also assume that the military does not disclose the full potential or purpose of its hardware
I don't assume that one http://guides.ll....security


Sep 17, 2019
if the military needs dictated the design they would have used a shorter exposure time, had different (or additional) instrumentation and better tracking, etc
Details. Base model, standard options, MSRP detroit

"KH-11s are believed to resemble the Hubble Space Telescope in size and shape, as the satellites were shipped in similar containers. Their length is believed to be 19.5 meters, with a diameter of up to 3 meters.[5][23] A NASA history of the Hubble,[24] in discussing the reasons for switching from a 3-meter main mirror to a 2.4-meter design, states: "In addition, changing to a 2.4-meter mirror would lessen fabrication costs by using manufacturing technologies developed for military spy satellites."

-So let me get this straight, you're saying that civilian science dictated the configuration of both the spysats and the vehicle used to orbit them because taking pics of celestial objects was a higher priority than defending the country from soviet aggression?

Sep 17, 2019
@otto
So let me get this straight, you're saying that civilian science dictated the configuration of both the shuttle and the spysats
sigh
OTTO
IOW science didn't dictate the configuration of the hubble, the military did
ME
erm... then the military either f*cked up or forgot what they were working on...
OTTO
Hubble had a different mission but shared the same config and perhaps hardware...
-The point being, military needs dictated the design, not science
ME
not on the HST
try again?

as for the shuttle - that was designed as a payload delivery system " Its official program name was Space Transportation System (STS)" Launius, Roger D. "Space Task Group Report, 1969" NASA

you can say it's both, but you can't say it's strictly military, per the designation and use

Sep 17, 2019
The only reason that the shuttle was selected over single-use boosters, was because of flexibility. It could loiter indefinitely, change orbits, visit and repair systems in orbit or attack enemy hardware, apture and return said hardware to the surface, and land in multiple locations. All these ops can be done by the X37B which is why the unsafe and unreliable shuttle was not extended.
https://www.googl...45101408

-This is all recce.
https://www.googl...45101408

Sep 17, 2019
you can say it's both, but you can't say it's strictly military
I didn't. I said it was primarily and overwhelmingly military. National security being the driving factor.

Civilian use was an expediency meant to justify its existence. Imagine such a system sitting idle while the cold war played out and in the end it wasn't needed.

Before you snicker consider that this is exactly what our ICBM fleet has been doing.

Unfortunately, like any other military vehicle, the shuttle had to be flown, pilots trained, different envelopes tested, flaws ascertained, repairs and upgrades made. Without sustained military ops in space, the shuttle needed to be kept busy.
Space Transportation System
Hmmm deceptive military misnomers... heres one; interdictional nonsuccumbers.

Sep 17, 2019
backing it up to the original discussion: you suggested that NASA was military
I just got kicked out of another site for suggesting that NASA was a military agency
your evidence is attitudinal (opinion) supported by circumstantial evidence which you've chosen to interpret a singular way

nowhere is there evidence that the suggestion is legitimate except through your personal opinion

if I accept the circumstantial evidence, it still only proves that NASA has been used to help deliver military equipment and has used existing equipment that the military also uses, which logically means that SpaceX and any other similar agency used by the military (or using military equipment) is thus military, including the weather service, NOAA, Social Security, your local volunteer fire department, etc
interdictional nonsuccumbers.
I always hated the BS Double talk from the pentagon (or the modern equivalent PC culture)


Sep 17, 2019
attitudinal
No, its FORENSICS. The military thrives on deception in a political environment. 'War is ALL deception.' Suntsu

Revisit my 20 points above. And add to this my last revelation here, that the shuttle could not have sat idle like an ICBM waiting to be used; it had to be used constantly to establish its reliability, and it needed a credible excuse to do so. Hence the uncomfortable amalgamation; or trips for teachers and tourists.

As usual, otto teaches otto far more than anyone else does.

But read my last 2 links. I think they're being pretty forthcoming.

"The Cold War between the United States and the Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics (USSR), which had played such a large role in the
initiation of the Apollo Program, was also an important factor in the
decisions that formed and guided the Space Shuttle Program.

"Use of the
civilian NASA Space Shuttle Program by the NSS programs was
controversial, with divergent goals..."

Sep 17, 2019
"This mandated dependence on the
shuttle worried NSS leaders, with
some saying the plan was "seriously
deficient, both operationally and
economically." In January 1984,
Secretary of Defense Caspar
Weinberger directed the purchase
of additional expendable boosters
because "total reliance upon the
STS for sole access to space in view
of the technical and operational
uncertainties, represents an
unacceptable national security risk."
This action, taken 2 years before
the Challenger accident, ensured that
expendable launch vehicles would be
available for use by the NSS programs
in the event of a shuttle accident."

-But by that time they were able to use both. This military system would be tested and proofed and kept ready using civilian money. And in time of war they had a dedicated, hardened west coast facility at vandenberg that could be reactivated. Which, we can assume, was the original intent. Again, a seasoned military that knew how to use politics to achieve the mission.

Sep 17, 2019
@otto
No, its FORENSICS
no, it's not
You've applied no science or scientific principles and you've established no link to any civil or criminal law

if it were forensics you would be able to demonstrate an objective link without resorting to subjective interpretation and you would be able to show, using specific data, evidentiary proof

then you would be able to show how this link/evidence/proof violates [x] law

your argument doesn't provide anything other than a subjective interpretation of circumstantial data which can also be used to prove the reciprocal of your perspective
But read my last 2 links. I think they're being pretty forthcoming
interesting. maybe
forthcoming? not really

and it surely doesn't validate your claim, IMHO

Sep 17, 2019
From the link

"The shuttle, with its robotic arm
used for retrieving satellites in orbit,
could act as an anti-satellite weapon in
a crisis, expensive and dangerous as its
use might be. Thus, the shuttle could
get around prohibitions against
anti-satellite capabilities through its
public image as a peaceful NASA space
plane. So concerned were the Soviets
with the potential capability of the
shuttle, they developed designs for at
least two orbiting "laser-equipped battle
stations" as a counter and conducted
more than 20 "test launches" of a
massive ground-launched anti-satellite
weapon in the 1970s and 1980s."

-But of course that antisat potential was not happenstance, not an unintended lucky surprise, but a primary military design parameter. Because the shuttle was a military vehicle designed for military missions.

Sep 17, 2019
if it were forensics you would be able to demonstrate an objective link without resorting to subjective interpretation and you would be able to show, using specific blah
haha no I dont. I've given you motive (national security), means (civilian in addition to military funds to support ongoing mission readiness) and opportunity (the cold war, supportive citizenry and political environment)

You're the guy who cant address the question:
you're saying that civilian science dictated the configuration of both the spysats and the vehicle used to orbit them because taking pics of celestial objects was a higher priority than defending the country from soviet aggression?
-No?
link/evidence/proof violates [x] law
?? Forensics basically means exposing the true nature of something that someone is trying to keep hidden, by analyzing evidence leading to a credible conclusion.

Perhaps it's a crime to misappropriate civilian funds. Some people would call this politics as usual.

Sep 17, 2019
Because the shuttle was a military vehicle designed for military missions.
per your own subjective attitudinal statement sans objective evidence, mind

sorry, but I disagree.

like the Mills disagreement we have, I can afford to wait for actual evidence that can be validated given that you've provided nothing but subjective opinion and supporting quotes from like-minded people

Sep 17, 2019
@otto
You're the guy who cant address the question
the question?
you didn't supply a question. you supplied an attitudinal statement of belief based upon your interpretation of the means, motive and opportunity

Meeting those requirements isn't proof of anything other than what levels of evidence you're willing to accept to validate your beliefs, especially as none of the evidence is objective
Forensics basically means exposing the true nature of something that someone is trying to keep hidden, by analyzing evidence leading to a credible conclusion
https://www.merri...forensic

https://www.colli...forensic

The use of science and technology to investigate and establish facts in criminal or civil courts of law - OED


Sep 17, 2019
The use of science and technology to investigate and establish facts in criminal or civil courts of law - OED
Yah I looked up. Only one of many interpretations. You can assume that subterfuge or lies of expediency are crimes if you want. I think that there are many very important things that need to be kept from the general public at all costs, but others would consider this a crime. Doesnt mean I dont enjoy figuring out what they're really up to.
Not a question dammit!
So let me rephrase. Which do you think would take precedence in a joint NSS/NASA design conflict - national security or science? Another - which came first in our efforts to go to space - national security or science? Another- which drove the decision to use a shuttle - national security or science? One more - was the shuttle designed to orbit spysats or hubbles?

Sep 17, 2019
especially as none of the evidence is objective
All those links and quotes are objective evidence. Unfortunately, most are colored by political expediency. The notion that the NSS and NASA just happened to forge an uncomfortable but successful alliance is ludicrous. You do not depend vital national security interests on the personal whims of low level administrators or posturing politicians. There was ONE mission with ONE predetermined outcome.

The ONLY REASON that the shuttle was a civilian/military combo, was to give it the excuse to keep a very critical weapons system operational like boomers or B52s, by constantly operating them.

Sep 18, 2019
@otto
Sorry, but I have to tell you: this is the funniest line I've seen on PO in a while:
You do not depend vital national security interests on the personal whims of low level administrators or posturing politicians
that's some funny sh*t right there! ROTFLMFAO
Which do you think would take precedence in a joint NSS/NASA design conflict
asked and answered above

NASA does the science (the understanding) whereas NSA (or whatever) would be designing a specific object to do a specific job (using a tool)

what is the job? is it for security or science?
I've already stated examples above
which came first in our efforts to go to space - national security or science?
irrelevant. science was the tool. security was the way the tool was used

pretty much all your questions go back to your belief that science is a policy. it's not. it's a method that helps develop an understanding (which leads to manufacturing tools, which leads to use of tools, etc)

2Bcnt'd

Sep 18, 2019
@Otto
the whole NASA/NSA (or national security [NSS]) is like the gun argument, IMHO
NASA is the tool whereas NSA/NSS is *a* user of the tool (and definitely not the only one)

the questions you're asking are more about the intent of a specific job which is entirely dependent on the user of the tool and the desired outcome

co-existence and/or co-development don't indicate that one is specific to a particular use, like guns: just because the rifle is used in war doesn't mean there are no other uses for it, like hunting

there isn't a single driver of science
You do not depend vital national security interests on the personal whims of low level administrators or posturing politicians
jesus f*ck, but that's hilarious!
thanks for that! LMFAO

Sep 19, 2019
NASA and NSO both are discussing the design of the shuttle. NASA says "We cant have a payload bay designed to haul this here spysat because it's the wrong size and shape. We need it to looks like THIS to haul our planned solar sunspot observatory." NSS replies "Well we have to have this spysat because its critical to national security, but we talked with stumpy and HE says the idea that your solar sat isn't as important as NATIONAL SECURITY, makes him laugh his ass off, so ok you win."

NSS says "We need a multi-use vehicle that can orbit this here spysat and also fetch russky spysats for our perusal." A low-level NASA admin guy says "No that's a waste of money plus we want expendable vehicles plus I personally hate you guys because secretly I'm a pacifist." NSS replies "Ok because stumpy says science should tell the military what to do, we'll do it your way."

-You drunkpost a lot stump?

Sep 19, 2019
The FUTURE of this nation will not depend on the PERSONAL WHIMS of some delusional administrator or some idiot FUCKING POLITICIAN.

"It was the late 1970s, when Kraft directed the Johnson Space Center, the home of the space shuttle program. At the time, the winged vehicle had progressed deep into a development phase that started in 1971 [and was in trouble]. "We were going to have to turn it, really, into a nothing vehicle," Kraft said. "We were going to have to give up on the shuttle being a delivery vehicle into orbit... "How much do you need?"... In doing so, Jimmy Carter saved the space shuttle, Kraft believes."

-But that's not all Carter did. He made it the ONLY launch vehicle, despite having said in his White House Diary: "It's obvious that the space shuttle is just a contrivance to keep NASA alive, and that no real need for the space shuttle was determined before the massive construction program was initiated."

So why did he change his mind?

Sep 19, 2019
Otto, every single thing a government does can be traced back to national security. That does not mean everything is military. It's very vital to national security to have clean water but is a water cleaning facility a military facility, no. Even if the water cleaning facility's equipment would be the same as the military uses.

You seem like a very intellect person, yet you seem to be ears deep in all kind of conspiracies and usually responds to other persons with negative comments. You should learn to value other people opinions and not state yours as facts.

Sep 19, 2019
Scientists didn't want the shuttle because it ate up money that they could use for other projects. "Feynman slammed not only the O-ring error but the entire process of building and testing the shuttle, plus the management style and decision-making of NASA, for good measure... "They must live in reality in comparing the costs and utility of the Shuttle to other methods of entering space"" -which had been the general opinion of the scientific community throughout the shuttle program.

But carter chose the shuttle anyway because the military had convinced him that it was vital to NATIONAL SECURITY. "The ability of the shuttle to launch arms control verification satellites is what saved it during the Carter administration," Damohn writes.

-and he wasn't going to let politics or SCIENCE get in the way.

Sep 19, 2019
Plus it was unreliable. "The chance of making it through first 25 flights (#25 being Challenger's last flight) was only 6%". The military could live with those odds knowing that the shuttle was a prototype, and that they would always have failures during weapons development. But scientists weren't willing to risk a machine like the hubble on an undependable vehicle like that.
Otto, every single thing a government does can be traced back to national security. That does not mean everything is military
NASA was borne of the need to beat the soviets into space. This was an issue of NATIONAL SECURITY. Like I said, the shuttle was only allowed to do science in order to keep it from sitting idle. It needed to be flown, tested, refined. Otherwise it never would have been a part of the civilian space program. The shuttle was the prototype; the X37B the finished product.

Sep 19, 2019
It's very vital to national security to have clean water but is a water cleaning facility a military facility, no. Even if the water cleaning facility's equipment would be the same as the military uses
If said water cleaning facility was vital to the security of the United States, as the shuttle was, then OF COURSE it would be a military facility, no matter what the public was lead to believe. The military would control it, protect it, and determine exactly how it was built and operated. The military is chock full of scientists.

Thanks for making that obvious.

Did I mention that canaveral is an air force base? Indeed I did.

Oh BTW ad hom attacks are not a substitute for refutation. You need to refute what I say with the same sorts of facts.

Sep 19, 2019
@otto
You drunkpost a lot stump?
nope

I just love LMFAO when you say stupid-*ssed sh* like
The FUTURE of this nation will not depend on the PERSONAL WHIMS of some delusional administrator or some idiot FUCKING POLITICIAN
have you not been paying attention to our government?
LMFAO
If said water cleaning facility was vital to the security of the United States, as the shuttle was, then OF COURSE it would be a military facility, no matter what the public was lead to believe
so all of our farms and public water supplies in the US are military? Wow... I didn't know that!
https://www.dhs.g...s-sector

https://www.epa.g...response

https://www.feder...on-board

https://www.dhs.g...ion-plan

I'll have to update my locals! LMFAO

Sep 19, 2019
@otto cont'd
"Ok because stumpy says...
I never said that

I do say that the bulk of bureaucratic bullshit decisions are made by low and middle-level pissants who can't tell their own arse from a hole in the gound

visit any VA hospital, Military base (especially combat arms companies/batteries), local/regional/national government office or just watch the news!

anything on the current administration's tactics regarding Climate Change research and/or planning will demonstrate my point fairly well, but the previous administrations have their own idiocy that is equally appalling and demonstrative of, and let me quote you,
the PERSONAL WHIMS of some delusional administrator or some idiot FUCKING POLITICIAN
making decisions on
The FUTURE of this nation
need I remind you about political anti-2A tactics?

I can only laugh at your comment considering...

Sep 23, 2019
have you not been paying attention to our government?
LMFAO
And I've been saying all along that that's all a SHOW.

Plato's Republic. He suggested that the best form of govt would be the hidden one, the one that could make and execute the most important decisions that the majority of the people would object to.

"In times of peace, prepare for war... War should be the only study of a prince. He should consider peace only as a breathing-time, which gives him leisure to contrive, and furnishes as ability to execute, military plans." machiavelli

IOW since all of war is deception, and peace is only the preparation for the war, then all of peace is deception as well.
Cont>

Sep 23, 2019
The cold war... do you really think that some insane maniac would actually be allowed to have the power to destroy the entire world?? There is not chaos at the top, there is Order. We can appreciate all the benefits of the cold war - development of overwhelming superiority in nuclear weapons and their deployment, securing the world's oceans with nuclear subs, the stockpiling of 5000+ tons of fissiles vital to establishing off world colonies, the maintaining of vast armies with cutting edge hardware capable of subduing any secondary threat, the ongoing destruction of obsolete cultures which enables contraception and ABORTION to reduce growth in developed countries, the internet for god sakes...

-All direct benefits of that massive sham we call the cold war. All deception.

Nukes were inevitable. We can appreciate now how easy it is for little 3rd rate despots to develop their own. The cold war gave the world powers the excuse to develop this capability first and best.
Cont>

Sep 23, 2019
The ONLY WAY to compel the world to produce this world-destroying, world-saving tech, and to do it in as safe and controlled a manner as possible, was through the sham of a cold war. Dire threats to the populace who would only then approve of the massive expenditures needed to build and develop all this stuff.

And in the end, according to Plan, the USSR evaporated and with it the SHOW. And it left Whoever is Really in Charge with a completely reordered world... safe, secure, and able for the first time to leave it and settle elsewhere.

Sep 23, 2019
Where I am right now we are having a plague of spotted lantern flies from southeast Asia. Completely unknown last year, suddenly they're everywhere, destroying crops and vegetation. Good news is they seem to be displacing the stink bugs, also an invasive species. Asian carp, ash borers, gypsy moths, west Nile virus, giardia, lyme disease, EEE...

I do think there's a distinct possibility that this world is shot. The flora and fauna evolved in the context of isolated continents and regions separated by bodies of water, mountain ranges, deserts. Humankind has ended isolation around the world, carting species and contagions back and forth with no restriction. This could lead to wholesale ecological collapse. The world could end up looking like a vacant lot full of weeds, rodents, mosquitos, and abandoned shipping containers. It may never be able to sustain the industrial base we presently enjoy.

The current space push is resembling an evacuation more and more.

Sep 23, 2019
I keep thinking of vonneguts stranded tralfamadoran pilot on Titan, and of how all of human history was shaped by his tralfamadoran rescuers for the sole purpose of getting a replacement part to him to repair his broken spaceship.

Our industrial base seems focused on developing the means to establish independent colonies elsewhere in the system. The planet may have been expended to accomplish this, and may not be able to support our populations or our civilization in it's current state for much longer.

And if true then it indicates that like the tralfamadorans, the People in Charge of this planet can know the future as well... that is, they were willing to accept the inevitable and began preparing for it gens beforehand, as they always do.

Sep 24, 2019
@otto
And I've been saying all along that that's all a SHOW
and?
do you really think ...insane maniac ... to destroy the entire world?
Pres Reagan - nuff said? LMFAO
the People in Charge of this planet
I disagree with this simply because there are too many versions of what the future should be (one person's utopia is another person's hell)

so until we have a specific goal to work towards that also binds the globe in some way (threat from an asteroid, or aliens, etc) then we will continue to have chaotic leadership working at crossed purposes based upon the influence of a select few, usually either the rich, the influential or the elected

Of course, all this *can* change, but it will take either AI working towards a global purpose or some other dangerous or lethal external threat/influence that people can bond together against

Sep 25, 2019
Stumpy
Pres Reagan - nuff said? LMFAO
Otto - president Reagan was an ACTOR - how much more obvious could they make it?

Stumpy - so?

Otto - sigh
I disagree with this simply because there are too many versions of what the future should be (one person's utopia is another person's hell)

so until we have a specific goal to work towards
There has always been one overarching goal - mitigating tech-driven overpopulation. Soon after the advent of agriculture, overpop resulted in the destruction of a vast swath of land from the sahel to the gobi. The fact that the entire world does not look like this, is reason to believe that there are Shepherds and we are sheep.

Further evidence - the world is flooded with nukes and yet we are still here.

Stumpy - dumb luck

Otto - sigh

You're right - convincing you or most anybody would take a book full of all the stuff I've been dumping here for years. I'm waiting for an AI bot to be able to crawl thru my 25k comments and do it for me.

Sep 25, 2019
I think its helpful to appreciate something. Tech-driven overpop is as obvious as death. We will always die and we will always, eventually, produce more people than we can feed. Inevitable. Unavoidable. Tribalism is the inevitable result. And the pervasiveness of tribalism throughout our history and our behavior and our genes, is more evidence of this.

But discussion of overpop and tribalism has been until the present, ignored, officially at any rate. Why? Because it would inevitably lead to the question, 'If it has always been such a problem, why are we still here? And then people would begin to suspect, like me, that there are indeed Shepherds.

If AGW is real, it is another result of overpop. Not greed, not ignorance or malice, but the desperate need to sustain far too many people. WHY aren't we talking about AGW in that context? Why aren't people demonstrating in the streets against the religionist cultures that are the REAL cause of AGW?
Cont>

Sep 25, 2019
In order to disguise the obvious, you have to disconnect people from their ability to reason. Religions were concocted to do just that. They convinced us that the most obvious thing of all - death - is not an absolute. If we accept that then the rest just falls into place. 'Give no thought for the morrow'. 'Ask and it will be given unto you'. 'Retribution is mine says the lord'. 'Overpop is a myth'. 'The stupidest and most incompetent people are always the ones in charge'.

We're all suckers for that carrot on a stick.

Religions devised the very mindset that protects them from blame and attack. We dont blame their selfish irresponsibility for poverty and bigotry and war and misery, we actually believe it's because we aren't praying hard enough.

What an incredible feat of mass delusion and criminality. Sad thing is, it was all necessary to save the world from the tropical human animal and his clever use of sticks and stones.

"For god so loved the WORLD..." jon3:16

Sep 25, 2019
And so - we have the crime, that being theft by deception and unlawful imprisonment. We have been tricked into acting in very unnatural and self-destructive ways. We do not need to know who the criminals are to know this. We have motive, means, and opportunity. And so in order to understand WHY, we do need to approach the whole affair forensically.

Sep 25, 2019
so all of our farms and public water supplies in the US are military? Wow.........
"A strategic reserve is the reserve of a commodity or items that is held back from normal use by governments, organisations, or businesses in pursuance of a particular strategy or to cope with unexpected events.

"A strategic reserve can be:
Financial in nature such as ring fenced funding or a capital reserves of a large corporation.
A commodity, such as intervention stocks of food or petrol (see security of supply and strategic petroleum reserves)
Specific machinery such as rail road cars or steam locomotives, to be used in an emergency situation...
International Strategic Reserve of the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers..."

-Why yes stumpy, even maple surple can be vital to national security. And all protected by the military.
NASA itself, like the military, is vital for protecting vital assets. During times of threat, as the refs state, it would be wholly controlled by the NSS.

Sep 25, 2019
@Otto
...how much more obvious could they make it?
jumping to the conclusion that because Ronnie was an actor then it's all a conspiracy while offering evidence that can be taken multiple ways and can only validate your claim if the reader ASSumes that your belief is true isn't the same thing as being real

if that was all it took to demonstrate something "real" or factual then science would still be ASSuming that the orbits of the planets were corrected by some random deity (whichever was most popular for said published scientist at the time, like in Newton's day)
The fact that the entire world does not look like this, is reason to believe that there are Shepherds and we are sheep
OR it's evidence that we learn from our mistakes... well, sometimes, anyway
the world is flooded with nukes and yet we are still here
see the last point
the destruction on actual targets was something the world saw

2Bctd

Sep 25, 2019
ctd...
convincing you or most anybody would take a book full of all the stuff I've been dumping here for years
sorry, but I would require something more concrete than "because Otto said so and has an article from someone who also believes his way" - it doesn't work for reeve/cd/benji/eggy/zeph et al either
And then people would begin to suspect...
not I
unless there is some evidence, it's all just a faith no different than any random xtian, pastafarian or eu acolyte
but the desperate need to sustain far too many people
there is some truth to this given that the primary polluters are manufacturing and power production
WHY aren't we talking about AGW in that context? ...
In order to disguise the obvious, you have to disconnect people from their ability to reason
I disagree with the latter, but to answer the question: there are examinations of population WRT AGW as well as it's offshoots like pandemics and vector-borne diseases

2Bctd

Sep 25, 2019
ctd...
What an incredible feat of mass delusion and criminality
true that
Sad thing is, it was all necessary to save the world from the tropical human animal and his clever use of sticks and stones
I think it was more about controlling people
the predominant reason for religion is control via judgement and peer pressure, so those who are capable (sociopaths and those without empathy) rise to the leadership position in order to control others
This means establishing a protocol for helping the masses accept [x] delusion for the sake of power and control and the ability to keep hold of it (because it has, on occasion, gotten away from one group, giving splinter groups power and a foothold)

none of that indicates a grand conspiracy of Shepherds, otherwise why so many factions of religion let alone the same religion like the Abrahamic sects?
And all protected by the military
ain't no military protecting our water... just sayin'

Sep 26, 2019
Not all of it, only that which is essential to national security.
https://www.googl...XAK6oQBF
the predominant reason for religion is control via judgement and peer pressure, so those who are capable (sociopaths and those without empathy) rise to the leadership position in order to control others
Control to what end? The middle east is dotted with city mounds marking the cyclic rise of civilization and its destruction from without and within. The PROBLEM has always been excess people. If a ruler does not control growth he will inevitably be overthrown by a starving populace. If he manages to control the growth of HIS citizenry then he runs the risk of being overrun by excess peoples from neighboring cultures.

This is exactly what happened to the Mediterranean civilizations and the Sea Peoples.
Cont>

Sep 26, 2019
The KEY to establishing enduring order and stability is to accept the inevitability of overgrowth and resulting conflict, and begin to stage it to your benefit.

Two tribes come into conflict over territory because both are growing, as usual. The young braves of either tribe are agitating for war and seek to depose the tribal chief who knows that these cyclic wars never solve anything and endanger everybody.

So he has a powwow with the chief of the other tribe and says "Look. You and I have the same problem. We both have too many people and yet another war might just destroy us both. Tell you what - I'll send my most troublesome braves out on a raid and you can ambush them, and then you can do the same and i will kill yours for you. Win win eh?"

This is called diplomacy. This is exactly what happened among the greek city states for over 1500 years. Staged ritual wars directed by the priests at Delphi who decided who would fight and when.
Cont>

Sep 26, 2019
This engineered system of constructive war created a powerful and cohesive civilization that was able to protect itself from much larger enemies such as the persians. But it does not stop there. If you look at Alexander's conquest of the known world with this idea in mind, you begin to suspect that the persian/Macedonian campaigns were STAGED with the same overall strategy in mind. This explains the great mystery of how 50k greeks could defeat a million persians in battle, not once but 3 times and more. And if you study the battles in detail you begin to suspect that the persians were set up for slaughter, and that both Alexander and darius colluded to make it happen.

I've got dozens of examples. And yes it would take a book to present it properly and convince anybody. But I'm not going to believe like you that 'sociopaths' (there are only psychopaths) can create and maintain multigenerational order and stability. This takes intelligence and commitment. A Tribe of Leaders.
Cont>

Sep 26, 2019
I think this was blatantly obvious in medieval europe. All the ruling dynasties were related, all claimed direct descent from charlemagne. Many were foreign to the people they ruled and didn't even speak their language. Historians want us to believe that wars among these nobles were the result of greed and petty rivalries. And yet europe was strong enough to repel the mongols, just as Greece repelled the persians. AND crucially, the centuries of controlled euro wars developed the tech and tactics necessary to invade and conquer the western hemisphere and secure the world's oceans in only a few gens.

You can cite all the official state-sponsored history that contradicts all of this, even as you assume that criminal psychopaths were somehow responsible for all of it. But again, I claim that FORENSICS is necessary to understand it.

No I cant accept any official explanations that dont include chronic overpop or endemic tribalism, 2 things the establishment has always suppressed.

Sep 26, 2019
@otto
Control to what end?... If a ruler...
you're assuming the shepherd again - normally, a sociopath wants to control for personal reasons
there are only psychopaths
well, I'm using the older terms but neither is used currently: they use APD (antisocial personality disorder) and there are different levels

Sociopathy (or APD) is simply far more likely than a conspiracy considering the abject failure of people to accept other cultures, beliefs, religions, etc
I've got dozens of examples
there are far, far more examples of sociopaths gaining power from business moguls to nobility than there is of any conspiracy
But again, I claim that FORENSICS is necessary to understand it
not forensics, but an investigation, or a comprehensive analysis, or some other terms

forensics "is the application of science to criminal and civil laws, mainly—on the criminal side—during criminal investigation" - wiki


Sep 28, 2019
you're assuming the shepherd again - normally, a sociopath wants to control for personal reasons
A person can have all th money in the world but if the economic system that gives it value collapses, then hes worse off than most everybody else - hes a target.
they use APD (antisocial personality disorder) and there are different levels
-'They' come and go. This is the best explanation of psychopathy Ive found

"What distinguishes all of these people from the rest of us is an utterly empty hole in the psyche, where there should be the most evolved of all humanizing functions [ie, a conscience]. [Martha Stout, Ph.D., The Sociopath Next Door] (highly recommended)"
http://www.cassio...path.htm

Sep 28, 2019
Sociopathy (or APD) is simply far more likely than a conspiracy
You wanna call a theory you dont like a conspiracy. I would call the official explanation a conspiracy.
there are far, far more examples of sociopaths gaining power
-and if you go back and examine THEM you might find that many of those are conspiratorial tribalists who identify with a particular economic or cultural subset and who feel it is their duty and obligation to victimize outsiders to support their own tribe.

Tribalists have a lot in common with psychopaths in their dealings with outsiders - mainly a lack of empathy and remorse.

""Primeval man", he argued, "regarded actions as good or bad solely as they obviously affected the welfare of the tribe, not of the species". Among the living tribal peoples, he added, "the virtues are practised almost exclusively in relation to the men of the same tribe" and the corresponding vices "are not regarded as crimes" if practised on other tribes (Darwin, 1871)"

Sep 28, 2019
Tribalism is a very dependable form of human behavior. It is most easily used to control people as you say. Religionism and nationalism are 2 of its highest forms.
forensics "is the application of science to criminal and civil laws, mainly—on the criminal side—during criminal investigation" - wiki
You agree that nazis or the mafia or the crusades or The Billionaire Boys Club or the KKK or the conquistadors are mechanisms of criminality yes? These are CRIMES Im describing, that people are actively misrepresenting, yes? So examining them would most properly be done forensically.

Sep 28, 2019
@otto
You wanna call a theory you dont like a conspiracy. I would call the official explanation a conspiracy
it's not a theory - you've presented a hypothesis at best, but there is no way to test said hypothesis given that the examples you've provided as evidence can also be evidence of other things (like sociopathy)

so it's not a matter of "don't like"
Tribalists have a lot in common with psychopaths
tribalism can be used by psychopaths
tribalists are just those who are loyal to the dogma of tribalism
A person can have all th money
not all sociopaths require money
they tend to gain power by manipulation, domination and control - money would just be a tool to be used

Sep 28, 2019
a hypothesis at best, but there is no way to test said hypothesis
"Theories of history or politics that allegedly predict future events have a logical form that renders them neither falsifiable nor verifiable. They claim that for every historically significant event, there exists an historical or economic law that determines the way in which events proceeded. Failure to identify the law does not mean that it does not exist, yet an event that satisfies the law does not prove the general case. Evaluation of such claims is at best difficult. On this basis, Popper "fundamentally criticized historicism in the sense of any preordained prediction of history"

-Thats right, popper. A philo. Doesnt mean he's wrong - just stating the obvious. And it doesnt mean there isn't a theory that explains it all. There is - mine.
tribalism can be used by psychopaths
Absolutely - a grave danger. Inevitable. The worst sin in this world is to let the inevitable happen by itself.

Sep 28, 2019
tribalists are just those who are loyal to the dogma of tribalism
-which is most every healthy individual on the planet. Yeah even you.

"Darwin (1871) considered the possibility of (violent) intergroup competition in (early) hominid/human evolution in his tentative explanation of the evolution of morality and other specifically human qualities:
"There can be no doubt that a tribe including many members who, from possessing in a high degree the spirit of patriotism, fidelity, obedience, courage, and sympathy, were always ready to give aid to each other and to sacrifice themselves for the common good, would be victorious over most other tribes; and this would be natural selection [actually, group selection]" (Darwin, 1871)"
http://rint.recht...rid2.htm

-A paper you've never read even tho I've posted it many times.

Big tribes ate little tribes. Skilled tribes ate unskilled tribes. Wild apes became domesticated humans.

Sep 28, 2019
Psychopaths present a grave danger. But they are very predictable and controllable as well.

""The World has only one problem, Psychopaths. There are two basic types of Psychopaths, Social and Anti-Social. The essential feature of Psychopaths is a Pervasive, Obssesive- Compulsive desire to force their delusions on others."

-They can be very intelligent

"Cleckley... has collected some cases of psychopaths who generally function normally in the community as businessmen, doctors, and even psychiatrists... Being very efficient machines, like a computer, they are able to execute very complex routines designed to elicit from others support for what they want. In this way, many psychopaths are able to reach very high positions in life."

-and they can be relentless

"...what psychopaths DO have that is truly outstanding: an ability to give their undivided attention to something that interests them intensely."

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