It's mathematically impossible to beat aging, scientists say

October 30, 2017
Credit: CC0 Public Domain

Aging is a natural part of life, but that hasn't stopped people from embarking on efforts to stop the process.

Unfortunately, perhaps, those attempts are futile, according to University of Arizona researchers who have proved that it's mathematically impossible to halt aging in like humans.

"Aging is mathematically inevitable - like, seriously inevitable. There's logically, theoretically, mathematically no way out," said Joanna Masel, professor of ecology and and at the UA.

Masel and UA postdoctoral researcher Paul Nelson outline their findings on math and aging in a new study titled "Intercellular Competition and Inevitability of Multicellular Aging," published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Current understanding of the evolution of aging leaves open the possibility that aging could be stopped if only science could figure out a way to make selection between organisms perfect. One way to do that might be to use competition between to eliminate poorly functioning "sluggish" cells linked to aging, while keeping other cells intact.

However, the solution isn't that simple, Masel and Nelson say.

Two things happen to the body on a cellular level as it ages, Nelson explains. One is that cells slow down and start to lose function, like when your , for example, stop making pigment. The other thing that happens is that some cells crank up their growth rate, which can cause cells to form. As we get older, we all tend, at some point, to develop cancer cells in the body, even if they're not causing symptoms, the researchers say.

Masel and Nelson found that even if natural selection were perfect, aging would still occur, since cancer cells tend to cheat when cells compete.

"As you age, most of your cells are ratcheting down and losing function, and they stop growing, as well," said Nelson, lead author of the study. "But some of your cells are growing like crazy. What we show is that this forms a double bind - a catch-22. If you get rid of those poorly functioning, sluggish cells, then that allows cancer cells to proliferate, and if you get rid of, or slow down, those cancer cells, then that allows sluggish cells to accumulate. So you're stuck between allowing these sluggish cells to accumulate or allowing to proliferate, and if you do one you can't do the other. You can't do them both at the same time."

Although human mortality is an undisputed fact of life, the researchers' work presents a mathematical equation that expresses why aging is an "incontrovertible truth" and "an intrinsic property of being multicellular," Nelson said.

"It's no surprise that we're all going to die; lots of things are obvious because they're so familiar to us, but really, why is it that we age? We start to explain why," said Masel, who also teaches in the UA's Graduate Interdisciplinary Program in Applied Mathematics.

"People have looked at why aging happens, from the perspective of 'why hasn't natural selection stopped aging yet?' That's the question they ask, and implicitly in that is the idea that such a thing as non-aging is possible, so why haven't we evolved it? We're saying it's not just a question of evolution not doing it; it can't be done by or by anything else," Masel said.

In the end, things just break over time and - according to the math - trying to fix them can make things worse.

"You might be able to slow down aging but you can't stop it," Masel said. "We have a mathematical demonstration of why it's impossible to fix both problems. You can fix one problem but you're stuck with the other one. Things will get worse over time, in one of these two ways or both: Either all of your cells will continue to get more sluggish, or you'll get cancer. And the basic reason is that things break. It doesn't matter how much you try and stop them from breaking, you can't."

As Nelson says: "It's just something you have to deal with if you want to be a multicellular organism."

Explore further: Stem cells collected from fat may have use in anti-aging treatments

More information: Paul Nelson el al., "Intercellular competition and the inevitability of multicellular aging," PNAS (2017). www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1618854114

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sparcboy
3 / 5 (4) Oct 30, 2017
"One is that cells slow down and start to lose function,..."

Actually that's backwards. Cells start losing function, then they slow down.
gblaze41
4 / 5 (4) Oct 30, 2017
Its not about stopping aging, everything ages, its more about prolonging life long enough to accomplish what people want to. It's more about leaving one's life and death to the person to choose, to a degree, factoring in accidents and such.
qquax
4.6 / 5 (9) Oct 30, 2017
Another case of researchers confusing their model with reality.

The mistake should be easy to spot, when you consider that we can obviously keep a software going perpetually, while continuously upgrading the underlying hardware.
betterexists
5 / 5 (1) Oct 30, 2017
May be for the present; Don't ever talk about Next Century !
No one could Nuke 2 Cities last millennium; It was done Last Century killing ALL Civilians there, Right?
betterexists
5 / 5 (1) Oct 30, 2017
Another case of researchers confusing their model with reality.

The mistake should be easy to spot, when you consider that we can obviously keep a software going perpetually, while continuously upgrading the underlying hardware.

Those WITHOUT knowledge of Biology & Computer Systems do NOT understand what you are saying, for sure !
Hyperfuzzy
5 / 5 (4) Oct 30, 2017
Wrong, regeneration has not been shown as a failure if complete or partially complete. Paper without evidence, only someone's idea. Always ignore nonsense. Juz say'n
forumid001
5 / 5 (3) Oct 30, 2017
Quite a number of companies in silicon valley are working on finding the foutain of youth, seriously.
tekram
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 30, 2017
'As Nelson says: "It's just something you have to deal with if you want to be a multicellular organism." '

Most multicellular organism already have immortality - it is called sexual reproduction where an organism undergo meiosis, genetic recombination, sexual reproduction and mitosis.

Therefore to have immortality in a multicellular organism, (part of) you have to become a unicellular organism. Meiosis, from the Greek word meioun, meaning "to make small," refers to the specialized process by which germ cells divide to produce gametes.

abraxascarab
4.8 / 5 (6) Oct 30, 2017
The problem these physicists have is they can't break away from the "Spherical Cow" models.

Not that they aren't laying a good bet... most likely the problems of aging are going to remain for quite some time into the future. But they can't possibly have dove deep enough into the systems they are studying to provide definitive results. They are generalizing at best.

It seems they are trying to push circular reasoning as a proof. (Or should I say "spherical"?)
Jim4321
5 / 5 (2) Oct 30, 2017
I tend to agree with most of the above comments. But first there is a philosophical point. Namely, you can't "prove" anything about the natural world. Proof is restricted to systems of logic. Einstein didn't prove the theory of general relativity. Rather he put it forth as a very successful (so far) hypothesis. Beyond that -- evolution can take a single cell embryo and turn it into a person. That sounds like it is a lot harder than maintaining an existing person. What gives?
betterexists
not rated yet Oct 30, 2017
0-Day Baby is formed by us, which will live for say NEXT 80-90 yrs; AND We have ALREADY TURNED our Body Cells in Lab Dishes into STEM CELLS which are Almost SIMILAR. But, We cannot Turn our ENTIRE BODIES into 0-Day BABY LEVEL. What is being said this week elsewhere is that We can consistently keep pushing back our ages....Living 30% Longer!
This is being said now in Year 2017. As Science Develops further, This Statement WILL BE Revised for sure!
Lischyn
5 / 5 (3) Oct 30, 2017
There is a jelly fish that when it gets to a certain age, it starts to get younger, then when it gets back to being a baby, it starts to age again. It keeps going like this for a long time. Biologists have taken a keen interest in this.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.4 / 5 (7) Oct 30, 2017
"It's no surprise that we're all going to die..." - Cue the religionists. Humans among all the animals have developed the regrettable ability to understand that we are going to die. Humans perceive this as a captivity, a cage of sorts, and like any animal it makes us want to escape at all costs.

This is a vehicle for exploitation by ruthless people who know that if they can promise a way out of this cage with sufficient authority, people will accept it without proof.

And what better way than to promise escape after death? Sounds absurd I know, except that billions and billions of believers have fallen for this scam for millenia. And the people who offer it never have to provide any evidence whatsoever that it is possible.

Instead they offer the unique vehicle 'faith' which requires the disdain of evidence and doubt, as if that is actually something to be proud of.

More witchery.
Jim4321
1.3 / 5 (7) Oct 30, 2017
For goodness sakes Otto. For a different perspective. God is Love. Faith is hewing to the belief that Love will make you a better person and your world a better place. If you let Love dissolve the fears that binds your ego, you will find that your state of consciousness changes -- some call that state of consciousness "The Kingdom of Heaven", others call it "Life Eternal". It doesn't mean that your body will go on forever.
sascoflame
5 / 5 (2) Oct 30, 2017
Another circular argument. They say we age because we age. It might be possible to design a multicellular organism from the ground up that doesn't age. It would still die. We really don't know enough to speculate. I am sure we will extend life in the future a few hundred years if we start in childhood. We know we can restart consciousness in a new body because we are doing it now.
bzkpublic
5 / 5 (7) Oct 30, 2017
So I skimmed their paper and I see a big problem there as someone who knows a bit of biology.

Their theory relies on an axis of cellular dysfunction and cancer - unfortunately for them that is the crux and the undoing of their theory.

If you look at any example of a long lived animal - whether it is a human or a Greenland Shark or clams, etc. - we see an inverse representation of their model - cancer rates fall with lifespan - a mouse lives up to 3 years, starts losing functional ability somewhat early and almost always dies from cancer. A human can live up to 120 years (40 times more) loses functional ability around halfway on that mark and may or may not get cancer, and the clams live up to a 1000 as far as we know (8+ times more than a human) and they neither lose functional ability, nor are they known for their high cancer incidence.

Now those were simple examples with animals that break their model. Some biological mechanisms break their model as well.
dogbert
5 / 5 (4) Oct 30, 2017
Math can model reality and it can also model nonsense. Having a model does not mean that the model is in any sense congruent with reality.

We do not now know how to stop and/or reverse aging.That does not mean that we cannot do this. It only means that we do not know enough about aging currently to change our fate.

We have already extended life greatly without knowing how to stop aging. How much more will we be able to do when we begin to understand those processes?
bzkpublic
5 / 5 (5) Oct 30, 2017
I got tunnel visioned with my previous post, what I wanted to say originally is related to this quote

"So you're stuck between allowing these sluggish cells to accumulate or allowing cancer cells to proliferate, and if you do one you can't do the other. You can't do them both at the same time."

We can build therapies which intervene in both processes actually. It's not impossible at all.

Ultimately cancer is the result of uncontrolled mitosis, cancers achieve that by keeping their telomeres long through 2 methods with telomerase enzyme or ALT, which is a significantly more complex method. 90% of cancers utilize telomerase. Unfortunately so do your stem cells, so we can't just knock out the gene from our DNA, but in the future with better drug targeting technology we will be able to knock it out of your cancers specifically.

You can induce a faster cellular turn over, and introduce new stem cells from an outside source.

Both can be done at the same time.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Oct 30, 2017
For goodness sakes Otto. For a different perspective. God is Love
You all say i cant be good and honest and decent and trustworthy unless i believe in your god and worship him in exactly the way you do. How exactly do you describe that sort of bigotry as 'love'?
Faith is hewing to the belief that Love will make you a better person and your world a better place
Religionists love to sin at night and be forgiven in the morning. The overwhelming majority of people in prisons around the world were raised in religious families and profess a faith in god.

Religions force their women to do nothing else but make babies until it kills them, for the purpose of outgrowing and overwhelming the competition. This makes things like war and abortion unavoidable.

And religions convince believers to act this way by promising to grant all their wishes, punish their enemies, relieve them of their guilt, and escape death.

How is this making people and the world better exactly?
rderkis
5 / 5 (5) Oct 30, 2017
I am sure he is right, after all no one will ever break the sound barrier. And people who say the earth is not the center of the universe should be burned alive. The list goes on and on about the impossible things we will never achieve.
eric_in_chicago
1 / 5 (1) Oct 30, 2017
"How is this making people and the world better exactly?"
Because we do all those things with a faithful smile on ours faces and avoid paying taxes, too!
eric_in_chicago
5 / 5 (5) Oct 30, 2017
Why would a biological problem require a purely biological solution?
Nanobot water fleas will customize or repair any aspect of your cells for you.
Pooua
4.3 / 5 (3) Oct 30, 2017
The problem that I have with the statement that their mathematical model shows that our cells will either lose function or become cancerous is that it doesn't explain why different species live such vastly different lifespans. It doesn't explain why some species are more susceptible to various health problems than are others. At what point are these developments supposed to take place, and what changes this timing? Could we change this timing to set it in the indefinite future?

We can remove senescent cells from animal bodies, and have for mice. This extends their lifespan. I've not heard this promotes cancer.

TheGhostofOtto1923 Your bizarre and greatly overgeneralized description of religion reflects high amounts of bias on your part. Religions have their flaws, but only the most fringe are as you describe.
adave
5 / 5 (1) Oct 30, 2017
What causes cells to be sluggish? Not specific enough. Mitochondria in young cells repair the cell and are much of the functions. Use of syrosingoprine and metformin deprive cancer cells of energy from mitochondria. Repair or replace mitochondria and the entire body will change state. Cellular fascia and spinal fluid transfer micro rna to a healthy body. Cancer has disconnected microfascia. Stromatolites have been around for billions of years. They just divide and grow as prokaryotes. The original cell is still alive without mitochondria and we can't eke out 999 years?
Dug
5 / 5 (1) Oct 31, 2017
The article is embarrassingly ignorant of the aging process. The majority of anti-aging research is driven by the same thing that drives medical research. Profit motive and income stream development. Like medical research - anti-aging research is looking for treatment of symptoms - and a product to sell you that won't "cure" aging, but will necessitate you buying more and more to delay symptoms.

Aging is a genetic default process. For lots of good reasons higher animals begin to age with sexual maturity. After sexual maturity the organism is genetically programed to invest less and and less in keeping the parent organism alive - less repairs to the metabolic systems - including less repairs of the repair systems. Aging is a cascade of cascade processes as maintenance and repair is stopped by genetic default. Aging has to be stopped before it starts to be efficient and to have any chance extended mortality. There will never be much anti-aging product market in the young.
rderkis
2.5 / 5 (2) Oct 31, 2017
It will be interesting to see all your views on this subject, when they increase everyone's IQ by 50%. Using genetic engineering or nootropics.
And at the rate medical research is progressing that enhancement won't be far off. :-)
sirdumpalot
5 / 5 (2) Oct 31, 2017
You can beat aging, you can't beat death - second law of thermodynamics will damn us all, even if we get to the Big Rip!
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Oct 31, 2017
"How is this making people and the world better exactly?"
Because we do all those things with a faithful smile on ours faces and avoid paying taxes, too!
Yeah you know, at the very most only one out of the many 100s of sects and denominations can be the right one, so I think it's only fair that, until they figure out which one that is, they should all pay taxes.

I'm sure god will recompense his favorite.

'Tax them all, let god sort them out.'
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Oct 31, 2017
Your bizarre and greatly overgeneralized description of religion reflects high amounts of bias on your part
I'm not biased. I hate them all equally.
only the most fringe are as you describe
Yeah and I'm sure yours is the good one.

You obviously don't know all that much about the subject or you'd be agreeing with me.

The only reason your own fantasy club is not burning heathens and apostates is because secular law prevents you from doing so. Just listen to radio evangelists for insight into your potential for just retribution.

Your immortal soul is worth protecting at all costs. Instructions on how to do this can be found in any holy book you may wish to pick up.

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." 2Chron15:12-13

-Compliance is not optional.
JC2017
3 / 5 (2) Oct 31, 2017
It says all you need to know about a ridiculous claim when they claim to use mathematics to comment on a biology question. Clearly, they don't have the knowledge to understand that many creatures don't have any indications that they age. I think this is more about Elitism than it is about science.

Aging is a biological engineering problem, not a mathematical one. When all you have is a hammer, I suppose...
amnesia
4 / 5 (1) Oct 31, 2017
I normally don't comment, but I was a bit surprised that something like this could even be published.

This is a myopic opinion from a couple of academics that appear to be completely ignorant of all of the aging research going on around them.

Their "logic" is, frankly, stupid. It's like saying we'll never be able to drive nonstop from New York to Los Angeles because we can't build a car that holds that much petrol.
Zzzzzzzz
1 / 5 (1) Oct 31, 2017
I'm not going to comment of the accuracy of these researchers, but instead on the interpretation of their conclusions. They may well be correct, but that fact could have little to no effect on the possibilities for significantly increasing human lifespan. Human life span capacity could perhaps be extended by many thousands of years, and these guys could still be correct. their conclusion simply says there is a limit, but doesn't identify where that limit actually is.
Gigel
not rated yet Oct 31, 2017
Their theory relies on an axis of cellular dysfunction and cancer - unfortunately for them that is the crux and the undoing of their theory.

If you look at any example of a long lived animal - whether it is a human or a Greenland Shark or clams, etc. - we see an inverse representation of their model - cancer rates fall with lifespan

This is very interesting and I wonder whether there are similar phenomena happening with societies.

There is the idea that societies / civilizations behave somewhat like organisms, growing, coming to a maximum and the declining and dying. Big civilizations don't show something looking like cancer (as far as I can tell), but they do lose functionality, becoming less able to cope with challenges as they "grow old". Young societies on the other hand show similarities to cancer: barbarian cultures (which are at the first stage of a civilization) show high vitality and mobility in the face of challenges.
cjribera
5 / 5 (2) Oct 31, 2017
What about Turritopsis Dohrnii?

Besides, even ignoring the immortal jellyfish, the mind uploading would not have such biological limitations, so, it's theoretically possible to achieve immortality.
rderkis
not rated yet Oct 31, 2017
Even today they have several drugs that reverse some of the ageing effects. Most have not been released for human use yet. Metformin is one that has been released and the FDA will approve its use under a new category called longevity drugs this year.
Drugs that eliminate most the senescent cells in the body seem to reverse some of the effects of ageing. Then there are drugs that extend the length of the telomeres. The drug named Timp2 reverses the ageing, which was shown to work when they give a young animal's blood to a old one.
Spaced out Engineer
1 / 5 (3) Oct 31, 2017

"...
The only reason your own fantasy club is not burning heathens and apostates is because secular law prevents you from doing so. Just listen to radio evangelists for insight into your potential for just retribution...."
...-Compliance is not optional.

They are killing people, just not overtly. It is covert. Check out project blue beam, http://www.omnisense.org/ , http://www.bigget...wden.com
Technology is being used to brain wash and link people. Sensory somatic voxels are being beamed into peoples heads via synthetic telepathy generated by brain entrainment. It is real. It is measurable. Check out the World Science festival for EXISTENT public technology. Check out Wired.com for masers that can beam voices in your head. Now imagine what some dying religious zealot is doing, clinging to arguments like the projection of the Wigner function, never visiting the timelessness of closed form.
I will say if it is not exclude it, include it, but this is uninformed.
Spaced out Engineer
1 / 5 (3) Oct 31, 2017
Targets that know have flocked to talkshoe for weekly meetings. Those that don't seek medical attention until they are pilled into drooling stupidity. Many have committed suicide. Sleep deprivation is no less heinous whether is someone strapped to a bed with a water droplet, or tinnitus via noise seeping into a designed communication channel , and then psychological shaming, harassment and suggestion all presupposing internal semantics.
The connectionalist model is not computational feasible in the lifetime of the universe. It maybe possible with a multiverse or non-physical information of future representations, but even then determinism, objectivity, and independence are a CHOICE. That goes for everyone.
Spaced out Engineer
1 / 5 (3) Oct 31, 2017
We may only get two billion heart beats, but in the now, there is no future, no past. There is just the breathe and the beat of the shapeness of drum whose sound need not collapse.

So long as there is storytelling there will never be tyrants. As for the attempted 'mind control', this too shall pass as those who seek to use it get there ass beat by real objective inquiry, still open, maybe for a grander subjective account, but at the least choicelessly tolerant and integral.
rrwillsj
1 / 5 (3) Oct 31, 2017
I see comments that a magical fetish will come along to drag the faithful off to some sort of fairyland stasis.

And I see the comments that a scientific fetish with lots of expensive medical care will cocoon us in stasis.

However, I do not see anyone asking, why? What is the point of eternal existence where you are trapped as a fly in amber?

Are you so lacking in self-awareness, so self-absorbed, so mired in egotistical entitlement? True eternal life is through your descendants.

If you did survive another century or two, you will not be the same person you are now.

If we could cure Alzheimer? The holes in the victim's memories would remain empty. Even if the brain cells are regrown.

So, your mama is cured of the disease but she still doesn't remember you or anything else since 1960.

You try to replace the lost memories with family video-recordings. But that person you knew as Mama is nonexistent. The cured patient is a new person, with a new personality.
wherehouse_2000
1 / 5 (1) Oct 31, 2017
This is only true if you leave the cells on their own. Once you put targeted intelligent repair & maintance into the mix you get indefinite longevity. Think tiny traveling repairmen & roving security guards. Armed with an undiluted copy of your DNA these lil Mr. Fixits can go from cell to cell making sure that the DNA hasn't gotten jumbled and that the cellular machinery is running as it should. A quick touchup to re-lengthen the telomeres and they are on their way to the next cell.
Couple that with beefed up micro Jean-Claude VanDammes to wander our blood & lymph always vigilant for cancer, prions, bacteria, & viruses and all we have to do it watch what we eat and avoid being run over by flying cars. The future is bright and very very long if we're just smart & calm enough to get there.
Entropy will get us all in the end, THAT is a mathematical certainty. Saying that functional immortality is too fine a line for our cells to walk is only true if we let them walk alone.
wherehouse_2000
not rated yet Oct 31, 2017
True eternal life is through your descendants.


For you perhaps, for a great majority of us, continuation of the self is the only true extension of life (there is no immortality just indefinite lifespan). Anything less is just a pale imitation
adave
not rated yet Oct 31, 2017
rrwillsj I will stick my neck out, never said this before. My umbilical cord after I was born smelled bad and really itched. It became hard and fell off. The discomfort was still there. Teeth hurt. They still do. Mom and dad taught me how to walk. It took about 3 days to get the hang of it. I still reverted back to crawling. At three I knew I had a name so I thought that my parents had names too. So I asked. It took several tries to remember. After 5 long years I was reading pop mechanics etc. and science fiction. I went from growing a memory and mind to mostly learning. From following to leading. Now at the last expected part of my life I am not the personalities that I remember. A recording implant that was an associative memory to mirror my mind and take over functions as my mind dies off may not be me. A computing device could allow me to live 10,000 years in minutes. I do not have childhood amnesia but I am not a continuous personality.
herbalmagick
5 / 5 (1) Oct 31, 2017
"People have looked at why aging happens, from the perspective of 'why hasn't natural selection stopped aging yet?'"

Natural selection has no interest in your longevity beyond providing the next generation of functioning breeders. Once the kids are out the door, you're an evolutionary write-off.
TrollBane
1 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
"Once the kids are out the door, you're an evolutionary write-off." That presumes that there is no advantage to wisdom from elders or advantage from the older folks who perform other functions.
rderkis
1 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
They are killing people, just not overtly. It is covert. Check out project blue beam,


If that was true then why haven't they targeted the most warped and sick of all of us
CONSPIRACY THEORISTS!?
Now if you only believe in one conspiracy you are not in that category, but I have never meet a conspiracy theorist that only believed in one. They see conspiracies behind every tree and under every rock. They are very sick! Plus they feel they are so much smarter than the rest of us they can see what 9,999 out of 10,000 can't.
mackita
5 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
Aging is mathematically inevitable - like, seriously inevitable. There's logically, theoretically, mathematically no way out
Except that many organisms don't age, because their cells contain self-repairing mechanisms. In addition, they're breeding by division, so that their bodies are of infinite age in essence. The great tragedy of Science — the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact..
arieh_shishirin
not rated yet Nov 01, 2017
Distracting article that works to take humanity backwards into more suffering.

You can certainly rejuvenate tissue, even if left to its own devices the tissue will age.
You can also build new life forms that are not aging with sufficient knowledge, but this is NOT what we should aim for.

we should instead apply the SENS therapies to people so that they are functionally cognitively and aesthetically younger, this saves humanity a lot of suffering and removes a lot of economic burden. nothing else is as meaningful in medicine as for today as we all already know.
eachus
5 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
It only means that we do not know enough about aging currently to change our fate.

We have already extended life greatly without knowing how to stop aging. How much more will we be able to do when we begin to understand those processes?


Right, the name for this logical fallacy is a straw-man. They show that a method for life-extension that involves favoring cancer cells will fail. This is obviously true. But says nothing about a method which disfavors both cancer cells and aged cells. The method could even do these two steps at a different point in time. This month you get your yearly anti-cancer treatment, in six months you get your annual anti-senescent shot.

I am a statistician, at least I was before I retired. Statisticians have tests for Poisson distributions of failures, called new-better-than-used (NBU) tests. They do work with humans, and say that for most of our lives NBU is false. Only above 50 or so do death rates increase above those at birth.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
"People have looked at why aging happens, from the perspective of 'why hasn't natural selection stopped aging yet?'

This question is nonsensical, because natural selection only selects for traits that make a difference until the age of producing offspring. Any trait that manifests after that is not selected for or against (except in the most roundabout way like grandparents' tendencies to protect ones family).

A selection criterium *needs to be passed on*. Longevity beyond childbirth and the time a parent protects their offspring is not part of selection
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 01, 2017
"Once the kids are out the door, you're an evolutionary write-off." That presumes that there is no advantage to wisdom from elders or advantage from the older folks who perform other functions
There isn't. There used to be, when culture was passed on from gen to gen, but today we live in a culture that is reborn with every gen.

I suspect that you're one of those old codgers who likes to bore young people with war stories, and imagining he is imparting wisdom.

Perhaps this is only because they are being polite.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 01, 2017
Any trait that manifests after that is not selected for or against
- and this is where people get stuck when they try to explain menopause.

Group selection can circumvent 'survival of the fittest' by selecting for individual traits which benefit the tribe and not the individual. This may include surrendering reproductive rights to others designated more fit to reproduce. Ie 'arranged marriage' for instance, common among humans throughout their existence but nonexistent in the animal world.

This is domestication, not evolution.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (3) Nov 01, 2017
A young woman goes to the trouble of selecting a mate the biological way, by compelling suitors to compete for repro rights. But the parents step in and quash the relationship because the victor is of another class or ethnicity.

THEY choose the appropriate husband for life by negotiating with other parents under the auspices of the governing religious body, thereby preventing (in theory at least) any future attempts to trade up by similar means, which is after all her biological prerogative.

The storyline of countless movies, novels, and fairy tales.

This is the method whereby harmony is maintained within the tribe, by reducing internal conflict and encouraging mutual trust among warriors and providers, and perpetuating the framework of the culture.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 01, 2017
In light of the fact that all during human development adolescents were actually the adults, the question to ask might be why isn't the modern human brain matured by the time puberty occurs? Is it something about our culture that retards the maturation process?

And perhaps adolescent western brains should be compared with those in hunter gatherer cultures to see if Pleistocene living matures the brain faster than playing with toys, sitting in school learning nonsense, and constantly being reminded that you're not a grownup and are incapable of handling adult responsibilities.

IOW does living like an adult mature the brain?

Another question might be why is the contemporary adult brain considered mature when life past age 20 during the entire pleistocene was a time of debility and decrepitude?

Are we mistaking maturity for early senescence?
rrwillsj
1 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
TGO1, you've expressed a novel viewpoint that I agree could have very interesting results.

My opinion of why human adolescents are not yet fully mentally developed? I would guess the need for speed. When our ancestors went hunting the sabertooth, it was hunting them right back!

Whether running into a sabertooth in a forest or running into a flipped over car in your lane right after a hairpin curve? Your reflexes are what might save you. Overthinking immediate dangers is literally thinking a problem to death!

The Hunter-Gatherer needed to be paying attention to their environment. All the time. Or they wouldn't have survived long enough to become our ancestors.

Living long enough to reproduce, raise children and train them to survive, is the point of continuing any species. What we call 'elder wisdom' are often horror stories. Warning the youngsters of the dangers they may face in their lives.

Still don't see any reason offered for 'why' longevity.
mackita
5 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2017
People have looked at why aging happens, from the perspective of 'why hasn't natural selection stopped aging yet?'
Because this is exactly what the (sexual breeding based) evolution "follows": the sufficient pace of generations, the reasonable (not too high - but also not to low) frequency of mutations, adaptability optimized for naturally changing environmental conditions. It seems for me, the authors of article missed the meaning of Darwinian evolution: it's target is not to develop immortal individual, but its consequence is adaptive life-form: no matter how many tentacles (or lives) it will just have.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 01, 2017
When our ancestors went hunting the sabertooth, it was hunting them right back!
Hunting animals is easy and when man became able to hunt his predators his numbers quickly exploded. Humanity congealed into tribes, and the tribal dynamic became the prime determinant of human form and function.

Hunting animals is easy. Hunting humans who are in turn hunting you, is hard, and there is very little difference between hunting and warfare. Competition among tribes is what caused the brain to grow.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 01, 2017
Living long enough to reproduce, raise children and train them to survive, is the point of continuing any species
Humans during the pleistoocene were making and raising children at the onset of puberty.
What we call 'elder wisdom' are often horror stories. Warning the youngsters of the dangers they may face in their lives
If they werent adequately aware of how to survive by the onset of puberty then they didnt make it that far. They didnt reproduce.

This would have selected for mature brains before puberty.

So either we dont understand what maturity is, or there is something that is retarding maturity, or that adolescence is a cultural illusion meant to keep people from reproducing during what has traditionally been the most prolific phase of their lives.

I think they are all true but that the last option is the determinant of the first 2.

Overpopulation became a critical problem as soon as we cleared the environment of all the animals that hunted us.
plekanov
not rated yet Nov 01, 2017
i don't care about aging if i can age forever, or use "entropy" (called "aging" in an antropocentric biaise way) in my favor to rejuvenate, "aging" is neutral it doesnt mean inevitably dying in a subjective linear scheme, so why these sophistic study ? ask the gérontologist
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 02, 2017
I was thinking that perhaps if brains are not maturing by the time puberty occurs, this could be another biological mechanism for limiting overpopulation?

Many species have biological responses to perceived overcrowding. Rabbit females will begin absorbing their fetuses on overcrowded warrens. Hatchlings will push unmatched eggs out of overcrowded nests. Ant workers have surrendered their repro rights entirely, for the good of the tribe.

Homosexuality has long been suspected as an epigenetic method of compensating for overgrowth. I would add to this eating disorders which return women in a grotesque way to the prepubescent state.

But extending the child state in western society might not be entirely culturally-determined. Parents may not 'allow' their children to achieve maturity by influencing the rate of their mental development epigenetically.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 02, 2017
There is a higher incidence of homosexuality among younger brothers, perhaps to limit competition for the firstborn son who is one with the best chance of reproducing in a population fast approaching or surpassing critical density.

Puberty is apparently occurring earlier in western society. But immature brains are much more susceptible to cultural influence. Do younger siblings tend to be the ones more reluctant to grow up? Are children in pioneering societies more mature at an earlier age? Do kids mature faster in rural vs urban settings?

Religions circumvent the perception of overcrowding by creating the perception of a chosen people, a tribe in the midst of enemies. Do children in fundamentalist communities mature faster than the norm? Warren Jeffs would say so.

The bar mitzvah may be the announcement of an actual state of mental and emotional maturity that children outside that culture wouldnt typically experience for many years.
Hyperfuzzy
not rated yet Nov 02, 2017
Are we sure nobody has conquered the aging yet? Or is it that we haven't and we're not in on it?
Hyperfuzzy
not rated yet Nov 02, 2017
There is a higher incidence of homosexuality among younger brothers,...

Nonsense, it's genetic and a function of the planet's genome, or your environment that impedes proper molecular action on a timely basis. If we stop using imagination as science, it becomes obvious. What's in your food that is not food?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 03, 2017
Fuzznuts opines
it's genetic... or your environment that impedes proper molecular action on a timely basis. If we stop using imagination as science, it becomes obvious. What's in your food that is not food?
Gaydom has been present throughout recorded history. So what was in the food of the Spartan Sacred Band of Thebes?

The Xian religion was designed to attract gays to the clergy as they made the best monks and nuns. Jesus - the long-haired, soft-spoken, robe and sandal-wearing love guru who traveled around with his all-male entourage, the token harlot, and his mom. He makes such a sexy naked crucifix doesnt he?

The disciple whom Jesus loved
https://www.tekto...lection/

-And the virgin mary, the only woman ever to give birth without being sullied by the touch of a man.

The church removed this problematic minority from the flock while creating a secretive and loyal clergy. Win-win.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 03, 2017
"As they were eating, Jesus took some bread and blessed it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "Take this and eat it, for this is my body." Matt26:26

-From that website I linked

"John is often called the "beloved disciple" because he speaks of a "disciple Jesus loved" as one who lays his head on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper, and stands with Jesus' mother at the foot of the cross. The intimacy of the description seems to be an implied self-description (hence the Church's reference to John as the "Beloved")"

Bloody hell-
rrwillsj
1 / 5 (2) Nov 03, 2017
One of the viable descriptions for human is. 'Sex, sex all the time!'

If wanna-be-a-puritans insist upon defining different types of sex as 'good' or 'evil'? Then a strict definition of masturbation has to include it as a 'homosexual act'.

All that nonsense is just monkey tribalism looking for someone to victimize.

Still none of the commentators have been able to rationalize any reason for 'Why' they should exist. Or continue to exist.

TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 04, 2017
Speaking of sexy crucifixations, here's one
https://www.stmar...ours.org

- in New hope pa, a long-standing colony of free-spirited LGBT-
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) Nov 04, 2017
The Spartans, i.e. choice, not bias as in Who killed Hypatia. Dude, you are all sick. Homosexuality is caused by a hormonal imbalance in the womb, and other malfunctions are defined by the genes. For instance, soy has estrogen, makes you fertile but gives you a smaller penis. Stupidity makes you think you know what you do not know, study and logic reveal truth. Whitey!
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) Nov 04, 2017
"As they were eating, Jesus took some bread and blessed it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "Take this and eat it, for this is my body." Matt26:26

-From that website I linked

"John is often called the "beloved disciple" because he speaks of a "disciple Jesus loved" as one who lays his head on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper, and stands with Jesus' mother at the foot of the cross. The intimacy of the description seems to be an implied self-description (hence the Church's reference to John as the "Beloved")"

Bloody hell-

So you say. Try Human Rights written in stone and was "applied thinking" for all until "whitey" came alone.
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) Nov 04, 2017
You are the only people with its God on a cross and is a form of worship and practice!
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (2) Nov 04, 2017
hyperfuzznuts thinks otto is gay. Hyperfuzznuts thinks gaydom is caused by dioxin and PCBs and bisphenol and bovine growth hormones. He also says
If we stop using imagination as science
-as if his imagination isnt telling him he is doing science.

Can you smell the cognitive disconnect?
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (1) Nov 04, 2017
Speaking of sexy crucifixations, here's one
https://www.stmar...ours.org

- in New hope pa, a long-standing colony of free-spirited LGBT-

The Spider Man on the side cracked me up.
The xtian Church is a Marvell comic?
Didn't see THAT one comin'...
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (1) Nov 04, 2017
hyperfuzznuts thinks otto is gay. Hyperfuzznuts thinks gaydom is caused by dioxin and PCBs and bisphenol and bovine growth hormones ...

Sex is just sex.
Subjective judgment created the "sexual aberration" paradigm...
Hyperfuzzy
not rated yet Nov 04, 2017
Earthlings are stupid.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 05, 2017
The Spider Man on the side cracked me up.
The xtian Church is a Marvell comic?
Didn't see THAT one comin'...
Its called marketing. Right next door is a high school. Come one, come all twinks and Kevin spacy.

In related news, 50% of Catholic clergy are supposedly gay.

Sex is just sex
-And what does that mean? Nothing. Sex is procreation and nothing BUT procreation. Non-procreative sex serves an important biological function. Can you guess what that is? Class?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 05, 2017
BTW if Jesus can walk on water he can certainly climb steeples and shoot gooey white stuff out of his hands.

"Underoos -?"
https://youtu.be/3BtGvV_OqSE
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (1) Nov 05, 2017
The Spider Man on the side cracked me up.
The xtian Church is a Marvell comic?
Didn't see THAT one comin'...
Its called marketing. Right next door is a high school. Come one, come all twinks and Kevin spacy.

In related news, 50% of Catholic clergy are supposedly gay.

Sex is just sex
-And what does that mean? Nothing. Sex is procreation and nothing BUT procreation. Non-procreative sex serves an important biological function. Can you guess what that is? Class?

Fun...?
Relaxation...?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 05, 2017
That would be a waste of resources. The fun things are fun because they are important. Propagation is the most important thing we can do.

But as I said way up there ♤ our repro rate hasn't adjusted fast enough. Non-procreative sex is a biological way of controlling growth.

There need to be studies done to find out whether gaydom is more prevalent in overcrowded areas. City vs country.
rrwillsj
1 / 5 (1) Nov 06, 2017
TGO1, before you can study the gaydom of country folk? You're going to have to pry them loose from the asses of their stock animals. To discover the fine traditions of rural corn-holeing.
Zzzzzzzz
not rated yet Nov 06, 2017
A young woman goes to the trouble of selecting a mate the biological way, by compelling suitors to compete for repro rights. But the parents step in and quash the relationship because the victor is of another class or ethnicity.

THEY choose the appropriate husband for life by negotiating with other parents under the auspices of the governing religious body, thereby preventing (in theory at least) any future attempts to trade up by similar means, which is after all her biological prerogative.

The storyline of countless movies, novels, and fairy tales.

This is the method whereby harmony is maintained within the tribe, by reducing internal conflict and encouraging mutual trust among warriors and providers, and perpetuating the framework of the culture.

Not "Natural Selection" s the initial question was asking about......
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Nov 06, 2017
Not "Natural Selection" s the initial question was asking about......
Proto-humans began systematically eliminating the natural elements that affected their evolution. They externalized their evolution via technology, so to speak.

Humans haven't evolved since they began living in the wholly unnatural environment of tribes.

We are domesticated animals. Self-domesticated.
Stevepidge
1 / 5 (1) Nov 07, 2017
Any trait that manifests after that is not selected for or against
- and this is where people get stuck when they try to explain menopause.

Group selection can circumvent 'survival of the fittest' by selecting for individual traits which benefit the tribe and not the individual. This may include surrendering reproductive rights to others designated more fit to reproduce. Ie 'arranged marriage' for instance, common among humans throughout their existence but nonexistent in the animal world.

This is domestication, not evolution.


Domestication IS a form of evolution. You keep drawing distinctions where there are none. Your underlying assumption in this statement is that "domestication" being an act of man is separate from "evolution" being an act of "nature". You have arbitrarily created a division where there are none. Man IS a function of nature and therefore domestication is merely a form of evolution.
Champ1on
1 / 5 (1) Nov 09, 2017
Of course, aging can slow down. It was written by a layman who "tried unprofessionally" to slow down his own aging.
You can try to compare the shelf life of cooked meals and the shelf life of food with added food additives. Durability is extended 5 to 10 times. Synthetic antioxidants are stronger than natural chemicals such as carnosic acid, E321.
Champ1on
1 / 5 (1) Nov 09, 2017
Are we sure nobody has conquered the aging yet? Or is it that we haven't and we're not in on it?
Hundreds of people have slowed their aging. They are all people who are not publicly active, so their names would not tell you anything.
First of all, if you want to "age" 3 times slower, you have to overcome some obstacles
1) Take an anti-aging medication with the same regularity as you are paying a supplementary pension insurance.
2) you have to overcome the urge to find the most effective anti-aging remedy, but instead take 10 tablets 3 times a day.
3) avoid foods that accelerate aging, and instead eat "unhealthy" fatty foods.

thomasct
1 / 5 (1) Nov 10, 2017
Aging can slow right down. Plejarans, humans who have common ancestors with many of us, live 800-1000 years. They claim our sun's radiation is too strong, and our genes have been messed with.. When Plejarans were posted to our Planet, time here was limited to 6M & they always wore anti-radiation suits.

The Plejaran, who claim 8,500 years ahead of us in Tech & Med . told us that a more advanced race in the parallel Dal Universe, the Timmers, (with whom they've had contact for a Medical Emergency, a brain rebuild), live till age 2,300. After that, their spirit forms must also rest.

The spirit form is immortal & re-incarnates on Planet Earth after >100 years, if a long life... maybe only hours if one's aborted. The Creation tries to choose family for re-incarnation. You may be your great, great grandpa or grandma.

The Pleiadian Mission by Randoph Winters based on www.theyfly.com, of Swiss et contactee Billy Meier. Only for the open-minded.

TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Nov 11, 2017
the shelf life of food with added food additives
Uh that stuffs already dead dude.

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