Bringing time and space together for universal symmetry

January 28, 2016
Associate Professor Joan Vaccaro, of Griffith University's Centre for Quantum Dynamics Credit: Griffith University

New research from Griffith University's Centre for Quantum Dynamics is broadening perspectives on time and space.

In a paper published in the prestigious journal Proceedings of the Royal Society A, Associate Professor Joan Vaccaro challenges the long-held presumption that time evolution—the incessant unfolding of the over time—is an elemental part of Nature.

In the paper, entitled Quantum asymmetry between time and space, she suggests there may be a deeper origin due to a difference between the two directions of time: to the future and to the past.

"If you want to know where the universe came from and where it's going, you need to know about time," says Associate Professor Vaccaro.

"Experiments on subatomic particles over the past 50 years ago show that Nature doesn't treat both directions of time equally.

"In particular, called K and B mesons behave slightly differently depending on the direction of time.

"When this subtle behaviour is included in a model of the universe, what we see is the universe changing from being fixed at one moment in time to continuously evolving.

"In other words, the subtle behaviour appears to be responsible for making the universe move forwards in time.

"Understanding how time evolution comes about in this way opens up a whole new view on the fundamental nature of time itself.

"It may even help us to better understand bizarre ideas such as travelling back in time."

According to the paper, an asymmetry exists between time and in the sense that physical systems inevitably evolve over time whereas there is no corresponding ubiquitous translation over space.

This asymmetry, long presumed to be elemental, is represented by equations of motion and conservation laws that operate differently over time and space.

However, Associate Professor Vaccaro used a "sum-over-paths formalism" to demonstrate the possibility of a time and space symmetry, meaning the conventional view of time evolution would need to be revisited.

"In the connection between time and space, space is easier to understand because it's simply there. But time is forever forcing us towards the future," says Associate Professor Vaccaro.

"Yet while we are indeed moving forward in , there is also always some movement backwards, a kind of jiggling effect, and it is this movement I want to measure using these K and B mesons."

Associate Professor Vaccaro says the research provides a solution to the origin of dynamics, an issue that has long perplexed science.

Explore further: Removing complexity layers from the universe's creation

More information: Joan A. Vaccaro. Quantum asymmetry between time and space, Proceedings of the Royal Society A: Mathematical, Physical and Engineering Science (2016). DOI: 10.1098/rspa.2015.0670

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baudrunner
3 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2016
A driver in a car traveling at 70 miles per hour which is being followed by a car traveling at 50 miles per hour exists within his own inertial frame of reference, and he might interpret the car behind him as receding from him - ie. traveling in the other direction. A person watching this from the side of the road interprets what is happening from his own inertial frame of reference. Two different conclusions are drawn.

According to Einstein, "no absolute meaning can be assigned to the conception of the simultaneity of events that occur at points separated by a distance in space. Rather, a special time must be allocated to every inertial system."

Doesn't this make impossible the task of describing a universally symmetrical space-time?
JIMBO
4.5 / 5 (2) Jan 28, 2016
An interesting idea, but, she hypothesizes a Galaxy, for which she insists the temporal evolution is as relevant as its spatial one, & then goes on to extrapolate a galaxy as `a point in time'. Galaxies are complex, extended physical systems, for which any idealization as a point-like particle founders upon the laughter of the gods.
Still, fresh ideas about time are welcome (like Smolin's), as Einstein essentially clamped a lid on further thinking about it. Worse, the Wheeler-deWitt eq. of quantum cosmology remains `timeless', meaning it does not evolve. Surely this is its weakest point, & little progress has been made in restoring time's essential role in the quantum evolution of the universe, similar to the classical one.
As usual, despite repeated posts, physorg writers fail to give the arxiv preprint: (1502.04012) of the paper.
baudrunner
4 / 5 (1) Jan 28, 2016
Still, the thinking that there must be a universal temporal constant which one can extrapolate from any position in the universe is a tempting one, and I am not at this moment predisposed to discourage anyone's attempt to put mathematics to the effort, because it can exist that way. It can be said that every point in space represents its very own sub harmonic of that fundamental constant, the first heartbeat of creation. I think that it is a big number, and the beat is long.
promile
Jan 28, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
RobertKarlStonjek
1 / 5 (1) Jan 28, 2016
It may even help us to better understand bizarre ideas such as travelling back in time.[/Q

The assumption that time travel is possible also assumes that there are a near infinite number of universes separated by tiny temporal intervals.

The assumptions required are enormous and entirely unsubstantiated by any observation or experiment but require that there is a quantum of time. This is required to separate universes. Can the entire mass energy of the universe can be multiplied. That there is a simultaneous shared present (required for a division into separate 'nows' or present moments and so on.

The observation that at the speed of light the interval between the emission and absorption of a photon drops to zero extinguishes any possibility of a universally shared present. The 'present' for the photon extends along the entire length of its emission. cont...
RobertKarlStonjek
1 / 5 (2) Jan 28, 2016
For CMB photons that would be more that 13 billion of our years and this is the minimum interval of separation or universes, providing that no other photons were temporally entangled, that is, that they were emitted before the last CMB photon was absorbed and were not themselves yet absorbed.

Temporal entanglement rules out time travel; duplication of all the mass-energy of the universe rules out time travel; the non-existence of a temporal seam (the point where the universe could split) rules out time travel and so on.

Why does anyone even mention this concept in physics circles any more? Time travel is fiction ~ Dr.Who is an enjoyable fantasy, not physics.
promile
Jan 28, 2016
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promile
Jan 28, 2016
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promile
Jan 28, 2016
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Old_C_Code
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 28, 2016
but once we admit, we can move faster than the EM wave in some medium, it immediately opens the possibilities for traveling into past,


The nonsensical logic of time dilatation is a testament to it's invalidity. Space has 3 dimensions by definition, to claim any more is STILL pure mathematical fantasy. Such a waste of brilliant minds; experts of pure fantasy. :/
baudrunner
1 / 5 (1) Jan 28, 2016
The nonsensical logic of time dilatation is a testament to it's invalidity.
That's an odd statement. Time dilation is very intuitive when you apply the right thought experiment. It has to exist. General Relativity is a plug-in to allow the perpetuation of this reality. It is the only way that it can be permanent.

Here's a premise out of space-time. A giant so colossal that he uses stars for stepping stones. He takes steps at a normal walking pace, no different for him than our steps are for us. As he steps over Earth he will appear suspended there for some time, moving as slowly as the hour hand of a clock. Were he to look down closely at us, he would see a cloud of activity, but no clear details. Since all things are possible in this crazy universe, relativity must apply, just in case one of those boys ever comes out of the woodwork!
Old_C_Code
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 28, 2016
That's an odd statement. Time dilation is very intuitive when you apply the right thought experiment.


Thought experiment, you said it, pure fantasy. Time dilation is only intuitive if you are a science fiction nerd.
baudrunner
5 / 5 (1) Jan 29, 2016
Thought experiment, you said it, pure fantasy. Time dilation is only intuitive if you are a science fiction nerd.
I doubt it. Time dilation is no fantasy, it's proved time and again. Try reading a few good books.

Troll.
Hyperfuzzy
5 / 5 (1) Jan 29, 2016
I thought the time to distance relation was lambda nu = c; a constant, so don't get her search. change scale; all axis dimension-ed as lambda, as the time to space conversion, Personally since I don't assume anything but what is known. The existence of a "+" and "-" particles without boundaries and the field are the only calculation.

Kind'a not getting the universal symmetry. First define where we begin with the definition of symmetry and why? Is it some kind of stability in symmetric? Hope its not another New just so all the blocks have an opposite image. Well, we do, the plus and the minus may be reversed or an image of what each particle or point or superimposed point using your space to time transformer. Anyway, juz say'n
antialias_physorg
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 29, 2016
"Yet while we are indeed moving forward in time, there is also always some movement backwards, a kind of jiggling effect, and it is this movement I want to measure using these K and B mesons."

That seems like an interesting concept. Would play well with Uncertainty principle regarding the conjugate varibales of energy and time.
promile
Jan 29, 2016
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promile
Jan 29, 2016
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viko_mx
2 / 5 (4) Jan 29, 2016
"Experiments on subatomic particles over the past 50 years ago show that Nature doesn't treat both directions of time equally.

Nature does not treat nothing. It is the creation like all living organisms - the machine that execute physical laws and obey the will of the Creator.

Тhe reason the philosophers in science still to trying to figure out the foundation of physical reality is that have no power to admit to themselves that they are unable to understand the physical world on the fundamental level.This is because the visible is for people, but invisible is for the Creator and the only decent and responsible people will receive the gifts of knowledge from the Creator.
charlimopps
5 / 5 (6) Jan 29, 2016
Came here to laugh at crackpot theories with no basis in science. I was not disappointed.
garygirard27
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 29, 2016
Many writers ignore the fact, at least in their writings, that there is no such entity as "time"!
You won't find a thing called time anywhere on the periodic table, or anywhere else in nature for that matter. Time is quite simply a conceptual tool we use to describe motion...particularly the motion of some "thing" as it relates to the motion of some other "thing"! Do a thought experiment for yourself: imagine that all motion in the cosmos has ceased. You now have no use for time...there's nothing to measure! Motion is caused by some form of energy input and proceeds in a direction opposite to the initial action. The concept of an "arrow" of time is useless and counter-productive!
Gary J. Girard, Putnam Station, NY
viko_mx
1 / 5 (3) Jan 29, 2016
Time is fundamental independent ingredient of the physical world which is needed for the description of the speed of physical interactions between physical objects.
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 29, 2016
@viko_mx
You wrote "speed". Do you mean "physical speed" ? Please clarify. In fact I propose
"Time is fundamental independent ingredient of the physical world which is physically needed for the physical description of the physical speed of physical interactions between physical objects."

And where does the Holy Matrix fit in (may His Rows and Columns be Diagonalised) ?
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 29, 2016
@viko_mx
"only decent and responsible people will receive the gifts of knowledge"
That means you, viko, mx and yourself, right ?
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jan 29, 2016
@viko
That is your favourite activity, isn't it: "obey the will of the Creator".
Do you hear voices as well ?
Just checking how dangerous you are.
promile
Jan 30, 2016
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promile
Jan 30, 2016
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promile
Jan 30, 2016
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viko_mx
2 / 5 (4) Jan 30, 2016
@phys1

How dangerous can be a warning to those that are doing lawlessness to repent to have a future in eternity, and to replace a few moments of doubtful earthly glory that will be not remembered for a life full of meaning in eternity, because God's grace is not infinite and according to scripture will soon be closed the door of divine mercy? Think about this clearly.
Phys1
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 30, 2016
@viko_mx
Are you threatening me ?
richardwenzel987
4 / 5 (4) Jan 30, 2016
@viko-mx
If your statement wasn't such incoherent blather it would be easier to think about it clearly. Or, maybe if YOU could think clearly...
antialias_physorg
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 30, 2016
@viko_mx
Are you threatening me ?

I hope that guy is on any number of national/international watchlists. If not they're not doing their jobs.
viko_mx
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 30, 2016
@antialias_physorg

You propose fascism with the hope to see moral satisfaction and compensation for your impairment by the truth ego? Do not you think that is better to repent and humble yourself?
viko_mx
3 / 5 (4) Jan 30, 2016
@Phys1

The devine matrix which is implemented in the vacuum of space and is programmed with the physical laws and constants (local and global) define the way of interactions between the elementary particles and electromagnetic waves, which propagate in this structure. The time is absolute that have one propagation direction to the future and constant propagation rate in this direction and thank to its properties can be defined the speed of physical interactions between physical objects in this environment.
Noumenon
3 / 5 (2) Jan 30, 2016
Many writers ignore the fact, at least in their writings, that there is no such entity as "time"! - garygirard27


Indeed, there has never been a time-field or time-particle observed independently of that concepts use by mind. We have an intuition of time, which in physics, is defined by choice, to be represented by another physical system, so that one speaks of the congruence of one physical system to another. Even in modern physics, our intuition of time and its defined physical representation are conflated in metaphysical talk.

In quantum delayed choice eraser experiments, where a quantum particle appears to "know the future", it reduces to a matter of interpretation whether to maintain time as a coherent physical representation, or to accept that the quantum entity is neither a particle nor a wave. In either case, our conceptual framework is exposed as an artificial one.

Also, the "arrow of time" is not physics,..... it is statistics.
AmritSorli
1 / 5 (1) Jan 30, 2016
time is only a mathematical parameter of motion in space.
http://www.scienc...e/122019
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) Jan 30, 2016
time is only a mathematical parameter of motion in space.
http://www.scienc...e/122019


Time and distance distance/time = speed, what speed, depends upon relative speeds. Since Lambda Nu = Constant, then there is only relative speed that defines all. i.e. a 4D mathematical isomorphic space onto reality. juz say'n https://onedrive....le%2cpdf
Noumenon
3 / 5 (2) Jan 30, 2016
EDIT ABOVE: "it reduces to a matter of interpretation whether to maintain time as a coherent physical representation [and] to accept that the quantum entity is neither a particle nor a wave [OR, to maintain that the quantum enity is a particle and accept that it's behaviour defies our concept of time]. In either case....."
Phys1
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 30, 2016
@antialias_physorg

You propose fascism with the hope to see moral satisfaction and compensation for your impairment by the truth ego? Do not you think that is better to repent and humble yourself?

Definitely, your reactions here are threatening.
You should be investigated.
Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) Jan 30, 2016
EDIT ABOVE: "it reduces to a matter of interpretation whether to maintain time as a coherent physical representation [and] to accept that the quantum entity is neither a particle nor a wave [OR, to maintain that the quantum enity is a particle and accept that it's behaviour defies our concept of time]. In either case....."

Actuality vs possibilities, don't get which you mean. If actuality, in the theory, then ...
jsdarkdestruction
5 / 5 (5) Jan 31, 2016
because God's grace is not infinite and according to scripture will soon be closed the door of divine mercy?

How can an omnipotent god have limits on what it can have and how much it can have?
Regarding the end days, you guys have been saying the end is near for 2000 years now. Most Christians living around the time of Jesus dying thought they'd see his return and the end in their lifetime. Its co tinned on generation after generation.
jsdarkdestruction
5 / 5 (2) Jan 31, 2016
Continued*
Sorry. Dang autocorrect.
wsivictor
not rated yet Feb 01, 2016
"However, Associate Professor Vaccaro used a "sum-over-paths formalism" to demonstrate the possibility of a time and space ******symmetry******, meaning the conventional view of time evolution would need to be revisited."

It should be asymmetry.

Hyperfuzzy
1 / 5 (1) Feb 01, 2016
Why not define a bit object that looks at every other bit object and uses a supposition of the fields at each instant of a 4D space with each axis as (NULL) or if you prefer, lambda of c = lambda nu, and we use lambda as the dimension. You will see the amount of time in spatial dimensions. The bit object of what each point sees at that time is defined. The space-time vector defined then is E from a single point; thus, E for every point in time and space, or the motion of all charges of that space. Completely calculable steady state condition of the spectra of any defined group of objects. Or from spectra to cause of spectra, definable and calculable even with our minimum measurement range. We don't create the existence of what we can't see as some confusing theory. We calculate what we can't see from what we see. e are not simply matching data to theory but data to actuality. Seems simple to me. It's already defined.
Benni
2 / 5 (4) Feb 01, 2016
@antialias_physorg

You propose fascism with the hope to see moral satisfaction and compensation for your impairment by the truth ego? Do not you think that is better to repent and humble yourself?

Definitely, your reactions here are threatening.
You should be investigated.


Hey again there Stumpy/Phys 1,

I'm just coming off a busy weekend & am just stunned to see how busily you've continued to find a way around your recent ban from the site. I've got to get back in touch with the ax'em MIT guy, gotta find out how to handle this all over again, I thought it was fixed.
my2cts
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 01, 2016
@Benni
This is a misunderstanding, I never had a ban.
But then, your whole life is a misunderstanding.
Benni
2 / 5 (4) Feb 01, 2016
@Benni
This is a misunderstanding, I never had a ban.
But then, your whole life is a misunderstanding.


Whoops, got you confused with Stumpy/Phys 1. Well, not hard to do, the two of you come off so much alike that you can't tell much difference.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 01, 2016
@Benni
phys1==my2cts<>stumpy.
But stumpy also likes to kick you around.
Hey, you deserve it!
Benni
2 / 5 (4) Feb 01, 2016
@Benni
phys1==my2cts<>stumpy.
But stumpy also likes to kick you around.
Hey, you deserve it!


Hey there Stumpo, must've been tough for you enduring that ban. What with waking up in the morning all alone in bed & no one to use your foul mouth on until you can get to your keyboard, and then you find that note in your email that you were banned from this website. I can just imagine the rage you flew into, I'm sure Docile took it much more gingerly than you did.

I see it took you just about the same length of time as Docile to get around the ban, gosh it's so nice to have him back, you're both such a credit to the world of science.
Vietvet
4 / 5 (4) Feb 01, 2016
@Benni

I can assure you Captain Stumpy has not been banned. I can't say more now other than
your thinking Phys1 and the Captain being the person is a mark of your stupidity.
RealityCheck
3 / 5 (4) Feb 03, 2016
Hi Vietvet. :)
@Benni I can assure you Captain Stumpy has not been banned. I can't say more now...
I have to ask: he hasn't gone to Oregon, has he?
RealityCheck
3 / 5 (2) Feb 03, 2016
Hi Vietvet. :)

You downvoted that. Why? I only asked out of concern for his welfare. If he hasn't gone to Oregon, then just say so.

I hope he's not ill.

Anyway, why make such a mystery out of it.

If he is just taking time off for personal life matters then just say so, and we'll all understand and wish him well.

How are you, by the way? Well I hope. Cheers.

bluehigh
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 03, 2016
Perhaps the Captain has been arrested for nefarious deeds. Vietvet won't fess up because perhaps he's involved. Just guessing based on the little gangs history of immorality and their support for criminal activity.

Phys1
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 03, 2016
@Benni
phys1==my2cts<>stumpy.
But stumpy also likes to kick you around.
Hey, you deserve it!


Hey there Stumpo, ...

Wrong connection, Benni. Your brains are a mess.
Consider a transplant, it works on monkeys.
https://en.wikipe...ansplant
bschott
1 / 5 (2) Feb 03, 2016
Hey there Stumpo, ...
Wrong connection, Benni. Your brains are a mess.
Consider a transplant, it works on monkeys.


Spoken from experience I can only assume. But you should have asked for an upgrade to a human brain. Maybe because of this thread VV won't make the same mistake...

monkey click 1 star GO!

exequus
not rated yet Feb 09, 2016
"According to the paper, an asymmetry exists between time and space in the sense that physical systems inevitably evolve over time whereas there is no corresponding ubiquitous translation over space."

My question is, how do you define a physical system? I can think of several instances of physical systems that evolved simultaneously over time and space. Any one of the numerous empires that have come and gone over the aeons could serve as an example, or how about the myriad corporations and companies that once plied their trade but not any more except for the alpha types.
This is a roundabout ways of saying that I can't quite see why this asymmetry was 'long presumed to be elemental'.

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