Student creates powerful catalyst from potassium

April 22, 2015 by Bob Silberg
Anton Toutov, Caltech grad student and discoverer of a renewable catalyst, immersed in chemical formulas on a chalkboard. Credit: Caltech Resnick Institute

Of what use is a newborn baby? This rhetorical question, variously attributed to Benjamin Franklin, Michael Faraday and Thomas Edison, is meant to suggest that a novel discovery or invention whose ultimate utility is not yet known should be viewed as a bouncing bundle of potential.

Along these lines, the eight-minute video Element 19 can be considered a sort of birth announcement. It heralds what Caltech's Resnick Sustainability Institute, which produced the video and funded the work it describes, calls a breakthrough in sustainable chemistry.

The baby in this metaphor is a catalyst that, unlike its cousins that pervade modern industry, is based not on like gold and platinum, but rather on something you can get out of a banana: potassium. The father (or perhaps more accurately if we ignore the gender problem, the mother) is a Caltech grad student named Anton Toutov, who reports that the delivery was long and difficult.

This new technology is already capable of manufacturing chemicals used in pharmaceuticals, agriculture and cosmetics in a much more environmentally friendly way than traditional methods. The catalyst requires little or no processing with petrochemicals and operates at much lower temperatures than standard catalytic methods, both of which keep its carbon footprint tiny. It can reduce air pollution from certain kinds of transportation fuels and, unlike the precious-metal processes it replaces, it produces no toxic waste. But like a baby, its ultimate accomplishments may be yet to come.

Magic trick

The story began in the Caltech laboratory of professor Robert Grubbs, co-recipient of the 2005 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, where postdoc Alexey Fedorov was leading an experiment in chemically breaking apart a tough kind of plant matter called lignin. Success could lead to the ability to turn waste material from paper mills and farms into carbon-neutral biofuels, among other uses. Toutov, who at the time was still hoping to be accepted as a Ph.D. candidate, was working with him.

They noticed that, in addition to the chemical reaction they had intended, another reaction—thought to require the assistance of a precious-metal catalyst—had taken place without one. Performing the role of a precious metal, apparently, was a very un-precious compound of potassium. For chemists, it was like seeing David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear.

Was this the chemical equivalent of a magician's trick, explainable by some unnoticed but completely ordinary sleight of hand? Or was it the first glimmer of a brand-new way of doing chemistry? Toutov made it his mission to find out.

Working with Grubbs, he used a spectrometer to search for trace amounts of precious metal in the mixture. Nothing. They arranged for the experiment to be repeated in other labs by other scientists, and the other scientists got the same results.

Student makes breakthrough in green chemistry
Ball-and-stick diagram of potassium tert-butoxide, a common chemical that can replace precious metals in certain kinds of reactions.

So the phenomenon was real. But was it significant? After all, the reaction produced only tiny amounts of the silicon compound that was of interest and required a comparatively large amount of the potassium compound. Toutov tried to improve the process, but the process refused to cooperate.

Anton Toutov (left), Kerry Betz (right) and their supervisor, Robert Grubbs.

"The first two years were essentially a total disaster," he said. "People were like, you've got to know when to fold the cards. You've got to know when to call it a day."

He joined one of the more well-established projects in the lab, he said, "so that I could get some results, get a paper and eventually graduate with at least something. But I really, really wanted to follow through with these ideas because I knew that if it worked, it would be a breakthrough. Or at least I wanted to know for sure that it wasn't going to work. So on my own time, which ended up being like the hours of 1 to 6 a.m., I went to the lab and worked on this silicon project."

Finally, he set himself an eight-week time limit to either succeed or give up forever. As in any good cliffhanger, he found the important improvements he was seeking just as the clock was about to run out. "And then," he said, "it just exploded—in a good way."

"It really surprised everybody, including me, that this works," Grubbs said.

Unleashing minds

So what, exactly, is happening in this reaction? No one knows.

"It's really powerful and we have no idea how it works," Toutov said. "It's a new way of atoms moving around. We don't know why they're moving around the way that they are, but they seem to be induced in some way by this potassium catalyst."

"It is clear that the mechanism of how this is all happening is really very different than the way we've been classically thinking about these sorts of problems," said Caltech professor Brian Stoltz who, along with Grubbs, has been serving as an advisor to Toutov and his team. "And I think that is the most eye-opening aspect of it. It's going to unleash people's minds and have them think about solving hard problems in very, very different ways. I think that's going to lead to a lot of new outcomes."

In the video, Toutov puts it this way: "We thought that only precious metals are able to do these very challenging . Turns out that's not true. Turns out nature figured this out millions of years ago, and we're only now starting to catch up."

Where once Toutov was a team of one, there are now more than a dozen people working on the catalysis project at Caltech, UCLA and Stanford. "I'm coordinating it," Toutov said, "but they're working from different perspectives and from different angles to expand the method and understand it."

Caltech, as you will probably not be surprised to hear, has accepted Toutov as a Ph.D. candidate.

So bid welcome to the latest to emerge from the Caltech nursery. Or maybe, for you X-Men fans, a newborn mutant since it sort of looks like others of its kind but is in reality a radical departure from anything that went before.

It may turn out to have abilities that are interesting and useful, but limited. Or it may grow up to change the world.

What is a catalyst and why should we care?

In a chemical reaction, the catalyst is the middleman, the matchmaker, the guy who brokers the deal. It's a chemical that interacts with other chemicals in such a way that an otherwise impossible reaction goes forward and produces the desired result, with the catalyst emerging from all the tumult in its original form.

According to Caltech's Resnick Sustainability Institute, the discovery of catalysts more than a century ago gave rise to the modern chemical industry, which uses catalysts in the production of some 90 percent of the world's consumer chemicals and industrial goods.

Caltech chemistry professor Robert Grubbs tells the following story about fighter aircraft in World War II: Germany's Messerschmitts were wiping out Britain's Spitfires until a chemist in Chicago found a that increased the octane of gasoline. By the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire engines on higher-octane gasoline could compete with the Messerschmitts. "And so," he said, "catalysis won the Battle of Britain."

Explore further: Chemist stitches up speedier chemical reactions

More information: The story is provided by the NASA's Global Climate Change website: climate.nasa.gov/news/2273/.

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antialias_physorg
4.7 / 5 (15) Apr 22, 2015
It's good to see that perseverance pays off (sometimes at the last minute).
I can so relate to this part:
So on my own time, which ended up being like the hours of 1 to 6 a.m., I went to the lab and worked on this silicon project.

It's in the small hours that the mind starts thinking in weird directions (most likely aided by caffeine) - and when you can feel that breakthrough coming it's just that one, bizarre idea that might push you to realize it.

It was not totally unusual to hit the lab on a Sunday at 3am and find most of the other team members present (remember: "overtime" is an unknown word in scientific circles - especially come payment day). Show me another job where people do this.
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (14) Apr 22, 2015
It was not totally unusual to hit the lab on a Sunday at 3am and find most of the other team members present (remember: "overtime" is an unknown word in scientific circles - especially come payment day). Show me another job where people do this.

Artists...:-)
Telekinetic
3.1 / 5 (14) Apr 22, 2015
"It's really powerful and we have no idea how it works," Toutov said. "It's a new way of atoms moving around. We don't know why they're moving around the way that they are, but they seem to be induced in some way by this potassium catalyst."

This is an astounding revelation about the discovery of unknown atomic reactions, in that Toutov's genius is founded on humility, where many research scientists are predisposed to the belief that anything of great significance or groundbreaking has already been found and explainable. The fate of the world itself depends on innovators like Tesla and disruptive alternative energy research.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (12) Apr 22, 2015
where many research scientists are predisposed to the belief that anything of great significance or groundbreaking has already been found and explainable.

Name one. Just one. I dare you. I double-dare you. I will bet large sums of money and vital parts of my anatomy to the fact.
You can go to all the millions of scientists and you will not find a single one that will say that.

The only revelation here is: you have no clue what kind of a mindset is behind being a scientist.
Telekinetic
2.8 / 5 (13) Apr 22, 2015
Sure, I'll name one, antialias. YOU. When the topic of Andrea Rossi came up here with his cold fusion work you jumped on the bandwagon of sniggering naysayers in typical close -minded, almost conspiratorial fashion. Then, in another piece on whether it was possible that peer reviews may actually hinder major breakthroughs, we heard more of your Pollyanna self-deception, "Prejudice from the science community? Never!"
People who are the most full of it never realize it.
Vietvet
3.6 / 5 (18) Apr 22, 2015
@Telekinetic

Rossi has a history as a con man, skepticism is doubly warranted considering after years of promising he hasn't produced any proof his gadget works.
Telekinetic
2 / 5 (8) Apr 22, 2015
@Telekinetic

Rossi has a history as a con man, skepticism is doubly warranted considering after years of promising he hasn't produced any proof his gadget works.

Strange that you, a serviceman, would cast the U.S. Navy in the same light as Rossi, since they bought into cold fusion research lock, stock and barrel. When you use your wits to analyze a man's claim before jumping to the same conclusion of those with a vested interest in seeing Rossi shamed,
you can decide on your own what has the ring of truth. From a 2014 interview:
11) What are the obstacles or difficulties that remain to be overcome so that the E-Cat can reach the ultimate goal, which is the market?

"As a matter of fact, the E-Cat has already reached the market. The 1 MW plant we are focused on right now is a plant installed in the factory of a Customer of Industrial Heat."

What it tells ME is that a business owner has faith in Rossi, despite the bugs needed to be worked out.
Vietvet
3.5 / 5 (11) Apr 22, 2015
@Telekintic

It's not surprising the navy has researched "cold fusion", the DOD has long supported exotic areas of interest, including esp. The defense of the country has to include every possible contingency. That the navy as spent a minuscule amount on LENR isn't an endorsement of cold fusion, they are just doing due diligence.

Don't get me wrong. If someone, anyone, can bring E-Cat or something similar to market I'll celebrate but so far there isn't any evidence that is going to happen.

antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (9) Apr 23, 2015
Sure, I'll name one, antialias. YOU. When the topic of Andrea Rossi came up here with his cold fusion work you jumped on the bandwagon of sniggering naysayers in typical close -minded, almost conspiratorial fashion

No. I did not say we know everything. I said that what we know (what we can experimentally verify) goes against what Rossi claims - and that his 'experiments' and 'demonstrations' are in no way scientific. He is at odds with demonstrable reality and is weaseling in his way to test his own claims.
(Note: he has claimed to have working prototypes for more than a decade. But keeps saying that he WILL have a working demonstration on a yearly basis. Doesn't that strike you as odd?)

Note also that I think it was RIGHT that people invested into further research and investigated after Pons and Fleischmann published. But it didn't pan out and wasn't reproducible so it was also RIGHT to stop.
bluehigh
1.7 / 5 (6) Apr 23, 2015
Dribbling spittle and frothing at the mouth again AA? Your great significance under scrutiny? You have such a big ego for a minor mind. You're like the kids in this article puffing out chests and claiming some earth shaterring insight, when in fact it's fair to middling at best.

bluehigh
1.7 / 5 (6) Apr 23, 2015
Now that further research and investigation of 'Gravity Waves' has not 'panned out', is it time to stop?

Now that further research and investigation of 'Cancer Cures' has not 'panned out' is it time to stop?

Room temperature super conductivity - not found. Time to stop?

AA, what makes you the arbiter of 'time to stop' ?

hillmeister
4.2 / 5 (5) Apr 23, 2015
A catalyst that doesn't use fossil fuels or rare limited elements. But instead abundant environmentally friendly elements. Hmm. I wonder who would want to suppress this as not to loose profits? :p

If it were not for the internet this wouldn't see the light of day. If this fails to get popular and widely used, then people need to wake up and take a stand.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 23, 2015
Dribbling spittle and frothing at the mouth again AA? Your great significance under scrutiny?

Why should I be? What has my significance got to do with anything (hint: nothing)?

You're like the kids in this article puffing out chests and claiming some earth shaterring insight

The insight here is from experience. I have actually 'been and done', and I find it just ludicrous, hypocritical and downright stupid to make claims (like the ones from Telekinetic) about stuff they have obvioulsy never have come in contact with.

Moreso because it's not actually hard to come in contact with scientists. You can write to any of the authors of the articles presented here if you have any questions - and stand a very good chance of getting an answer. But instead we see slander and griping about 'scientists protecting their jobs' or 'scientists not understanding the basics of X', etc.

And THAT is the action of small minds. Shooting their mouths off without going to the source.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 23, 2015
AA, what makes you the arbiter of 'time to stop' ?

No one. But research is an endeavour with limited resources. If you have been following the news at all in the past few decades then you will realize that these resources get ever fewer. If you deal with a system with limited resources then you have to make decisions where to spend those resources. And in science (and any other enterprise) you stop putting resources into stuff that doesn't deliver. Especially so if the first impression and the subsequent claim by its proponets is "it's easy".

Well, if after umpteen million dollars it turns out that it isn't easy (and doesn't work at all) what else would you do given a restricted budget? Throw good money after bad? There are more promising fields to spend money on.
bluehigh
2 / 5 (6) Apr 23, 2015
'where many research scientists are predisposed to the belief that anything of great significance or groundbreaking has already been found and explainable.' - Telekinetic

'You can go to all the millions of scientists and you will not find a single one that will say that. Name one. Just one. I dare you. I double-dare you. I will bet large sums of money and vital parts of my anatomy to the fact.' - AA

>>
"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement." - Lord Kelvin

@AA - you just lost vital parts of your anatomy. Ouch!
Will you die now and cease your relentless arrogance?

antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Apr 23, 2015
AA - you just lost vital parts of your anatomy. Ouch!

Did you go to him and did he say that?
IIRC Lord Kelvin is dead. Unless you're a necromancer that's grasping for straws.
So, I'll keep my anatomy. You lose.
bluehigh
2.6 / 5 (7) Apr 23, 2015
Squirming out of your ignorance AA?

Michelson-Morley Experiment. Maybe you know of it?

Michelson is quoted as quipping "the grand underlying principles have been firmly established...further truths of physics are to be looked for in the sixth place of decimals"

That's two scientists. However, according to you dead scientists count for nothing. You're on thin ice buddy!

Telekinetic
1 / 5 (5) Apr 23, 2015
Thanks for doing that legwork, bluehigh. Now about that pound of flesh, or ounce...
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 23, 2015
Michelson is quoted as quipping "the grand underlying principles have been firmly established...further truths of physics are to be looked for in the sixth place of decimals"

Did you go to him and ask. The guy is dead, too, as far as I know.
(and 'places of decimals' doesn't mean 'not significant'. If you think QM or the nano-sciences are not significant you're kidding yourself)

I think there is something you really don't understand (and it is this lack of understanding that is baffling me as to why you are even trying to read science articles, because it is the very same fact that precludes you from understanding them):
Scientists become scientists because they feel all is NOT known. If you didn't have that feeling you couldn't do the job (you'd maybe become an engineer). You can construct a cohesive argument that all CANNOT be known (i.e. that we never can have a ToE...or at the very least that we can never be sure even if we formulate a persuasive one)
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 23, 2015
I very deliberately said that (and I quote myself here):
You can go to all the millions of scientists and you will not find a single one that will say that.

...because what you are sorely lacking is any kind of direct contact with the thing you profess to speak about. And you don't even realize how stupid that makes you look.
What you are effectively practicing is demagogy - which is the exact opposite of critical thinking.
So go out. Contact them. It's easy. They are not sitting behind guarded walls. Their email addresses are easily obtained. Get some first hand experience and then - and only then - comment on what and how scientists think.
Telekinetic
1.7 / 5 (6) Apr 23, 2015
The foolish one here is you, antialias. What would the probability be of NOT finding one scientist among millions who would say that most of what we will know is already known. Not ONE in millions? Your ability to reason comes into question then.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Apr 23, 2015
It's pretty simple:
There's a large part of the universe we don't know about. We have no clue about what dark matter or dark energy is. We have barely scratched the surface of basics like "what gives stuff mass". We have very little idea about the phenomenon of time, why the universe is the way it is, about the possibility of extra dimensions (rolled up small or possible multiverses)...we haven't even really begun to get to grips with the microscopic as there are still about two dozen ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE which we haven't probed down to until stuff gets to some sort of (theoretical) limit.

And you really think anyone in their right mind would say "we know almost all that there is to know"? Really? How dumb do you think scientists are? As dumb as you? Really? Think again.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (4) Apr 23, 2015
" But it didn't pan out and wasn't reproducible so it was also RIGHT to stop."-aa

Fortunately, Toutov didn't listen to you. I really enjoy seeing you thrash about like a cornered rat, trying to defend what you've said which you know but can't admit was wrong.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Apr 23, 2015
Did you even read the article? He says it himself:
Finally, he set himself an eight-week time limit to either succeed or give up forever.

He did EXACTLY what I am talking about. At some point you have to put in a limit.
Otherwise you end up like these tired old cranks who live out their lives chasing some figment of their imagination. (The theory need not be wrong, but at some point you have to come to the conclusion that you may not be the one who is going to crack it).

Before that what he did was EXACTLY right (which your cold fusion never could manage BTW):
They arranged for the experiment to be repeated in other labs by other scientists
He had something to go on. A real and *reproducible* measurement by *independent* researchers and therefore it was right to follow it up.

THAT's how science and a scientist works. Not the tired con of Rossi et al.

If you're gonna abuse Tuotov's name: at least have the decency to read the article first.
Telekinetic
1.8 / 5 (5) Apr 23, 2015
Your conceit knows no bounds, antialias. Comparing the caliber of your work or yourself with a scientist like Rossi is outrageous. The amount of posting that you seem to have so much free time for tells me that whatever research you're doing is insignificant, while Rossi aims to free the world of the choke hold of fossil fuels. You're not even close to being in his league, and your criticism of him means nothing.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Apr 24, 2015
Comparing the caliber of your work or yourself with a scientist like Rossi is outrageous

Rossi graduated a philospher. 'nuff said. He doesn't have a clue about any of the hard sciences

The amount of posting that you seem to have so much free time for tells me that whatever research you're doing is insignificant,

I haven't been doing research for a couple of years (and since you're following my postings you should be aware of this...as I've stated this many times). You can't live off of what a research position pays.
while Rossi aims to free the world of the choke hold of fossil fuels.

Rossi aims to get rich by doing a con. It is the modus operandi of the conman to try an sucker those with little knowledge into their schemes. Seems like he's fully succeeding with you. Wann buy an Eiffel tower?
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (3) Apr 24, 2015
"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement." - Lord Kelvin


This is interesting in that - the more precise our measurements get, the more there is to discover...
It's a big Universe out there - and gettin' bigger all the time...:-)
Whydening Gyre
4 / 5 (4) Apr 24, 2015
while Rossi aims to free the world of the choke hold of fossil fuels.

Rossi aims to get rich by doing a con. It is the modus operandi of the conman to try an sucker those with little knowledge into their schemes. Seems like he's fully succeeding with you. Wanna buy an Eiffel tower?

Not sure he's doing either one. It appears more that he is a guy who stumbled across a process he doesn't really understand and is being EXTREMELY cautious about whom he trusts with that limited knowledge of that process.
Paranoia strikes deep...(sometimes with good reason...)

Telekinetic
1.7 / 5 (6) Apr 24, 2015


"Rossi aims to get rich by doing a con. It is the modus operandi of the conman to try an sucker those with little knowledge into their schemes. Seems like he's fully succeeding with you. Wann buy an Eiffel tower?"

You haven't bothered to research the history of Rossi's demonstrations of his reactor to other "real" scientists who came away convinced that it was valid. You are exactly the kind of prejudiced, bloated ego that you claim scientists can't possibly be. You're a hypocrite who never made enough money as a researcher because your work was mediocre.
Moebius
1 / 5 (1) Apr 25, 2015
And here's a perfect case study for why anomalies, all anomalies, should be at or near the front of the line for research money. They noticed it and instead of ignoring it made a significant discovery.
Mike_Massen
2.6 / 5 (5) Apr 25, 2015
My eldest son completed Chemical Engineering 2013 & my youngest son completes Physics this year, both at Curtin University in Bentley, near Perth, Western Australia. This development and what it implies may be the key to my son going back to finish his initial double major in chem and maybe a reason for my youngest to add a year to his for honors... Physics of course is the essential Foundation for all chemistry, the emergent aspect (as it seems) re catalysis however could be where part of the issue lies & could well have a myriad of complexities in yet further specializations...

But hey !
I wonder if by any odd ball chance the use of Kalium (as blacklight power) uses the latin for potassium, might just tangentially have anything to do with Mills claim its an ideal catalyst for that Hydrino process - hmm and [sigh]...

"Oh dear, what tangled webs we weave, if not but yet to discover we may have otherwise been deceived"

Sry for slight obfuscation of a nice quote
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (4) Apr 26, 2015
Telekinetic claims
...in that Toutov's genius is founded on humility,
Your interpretation re humility is odd, it can be argued those dogged OCD type researchers are anything but humble, its a pleasant romantic notion and might be true for some however, in my 35 years in various technical fields primarily electronics. I've met many researchers who are far more complex than that and humility isnt necessarily something they consider and those closely working with them would roll their eyes but, nontheless hats off to Toutov for mature persistence defining a target.

However Telekinetic claims
...where many research scientists are predisposed to the belief that anything of great significance or groundbreaking has already been found and explainable
No.
PLEASE Prove it ?

Unlikely, because (implicit in) Physics training is founded on math & (uni) students quickly learn "maths describes it does not explain" ie A type of phenomenological basis, beliefs are passe' !
Mike_Massen
3.4 / 5 (5) Apr 26, 2015
Telekinetic claims
..When the topic of Andrea Rossi came up here with his cold fusion work.
Aactual 'work' is minimal, many claims, much hype & as far as i can see nil replication complicated by immensely naive "Experimental Methodology".

Appears Rossi is exploiting widening & troubling educational discontinuity, where investors (with minimal technical education) sit, between hard Science(s) & the & driven wishful thinking, only founded on the low probability minimal fusion might occur.

There is nothing unusual about low energy driven Fusion, it happens & easily enhanced small electric current, this is real & exploited as basis for an instruments ie By Sandia Labs
http://www.gizmag...p/23856/

Re Rossi, maybe something (minimal) with Ni to --> Cu but, is it anywhere near significant enough, however 'work' by Rossi is far more consistent with a (complex convoluted) con to extract a living than ANY quantification at all :-(
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (4) Apr 26, 2015
Telekinetic claimed
... plant installed in the factory of a Customer of Industrial Heat."
What it tells ME is that a business owner has faith in Rossi, despite the bugs needed to be worked out
No. Examine DETAILS, if this is what I saw last year, relies on natural gas constant input & NOT possible to delineate heat produced from gas burned vs produced by Rossi's mechanism - not one bit !

Rossi said something to effect of ".. it needs natural gas to get the cell heated first so it starts" ie Like battery for an engine starter motor..

If it were true then FFS use sized battery bank, FAR more sensible than plumbing in fixed gas supply !

Many easily see these flaws part of a pattern ie a convoluted means to pull investors money :-(

"details matter as the truth often hides well in the details"

BlackLight same, many flaws, several very scarily obvious, eg Al cup thermite FFS ! & Mills interpretation does NOT stack up - tragic, immense dis-service to Science !
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (5) Apr 27, 2015
You haven't bothered to research the history of Rossi's demonstrations

If you dig in the comment sections on this very site you will actually find that I have (just google "antialias_physorg" and "rossi")

But here's an interesting writeup on his short-term and long-term cash strategies from a non-working device.
http://newenergyt...ce.shtml

If it's too long just skip to the section about Petroldragon, Biofuels and his plethora of fake front companies (note that one of the co founders of the 'indpenedent companies' (Ampenergo and Leonardo Technologies. Inc. that is so often cited as being interested in the ECat were also founded by Rossi.)
If you believe his claims he has also received in excess of 300 million dollars for development up until now - while claiming AT THE SAMER TIME that all the money invested so far came out of his own pocket.

Doesn't any of this strike you as odd?
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (5) Apr 27, 2015
Then he starts trying to get a patent...WITHOUT disclosing the nature of his catalyst to the patent office. (That you don't get a patent with that approach goes without saying)

Note: that later he claims his invention works even without the catalyst

Then he starts publishing a paper in a journal - which he founded.

Note: in the second try at a patent application he cites the above paper (his own paper!) as a 'detailed description' (which it is not, BTW) and claims that the device is patented (claiming to have a patent in the patent application is a bit insane if you ask me)..It also included the catalyst again.

Note: All 10 devices delivered to the DoE did not work.

Note: The claim of a delivery of an ECat in Athens was never substantiated by any kind of record.

Note: that the many websites that hype the ECat are all Rossi's or his immediate associates (you would think that if it works they'd just have a company website)

Any of this strike you as odd?
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (4) Apr 27, 2015
@antialias_physorg
A nice summary there of Rossi, Mills is on par as well it would seem Eg as much of his 'work' is hiding and rather exploiting means to hide actual useful empirical measurements which might show anything definitive either way, funny that !

Eg. Placing his hydrino 'reaction' inside what is effectively a violent thermite reaction which of course looks great with sparks, light show with high localized heat etc Is a Great smoke & mirrors con trick, actually I think he did use a mirror for his Sun Cell claims - its tragic, they exploit the divide between sound Physics & investor massaging !

TheGhostofOtto1923 who has shown he is a firm devotee of Rossi & Mills, should take a breath and learn a bit about how to craft an experiment, ANY illustration of how to be definitive. Such immense ignorance also shared with Water_Prophet, despite all their unproven claims !

Well done antialias_physorg :-)
bluehigh
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 27, 2015
Mike, you should be ashamed of yourself. Go and think through your comment and decide if it's rational discussion you promote or vindictive retribution towards dissent. Did you just join the sycophants in the AA gang? I'm surprised and disappointed, I thought you had some independent intellectual capacity.
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (4) Apr 27, 2015
bluehigh claims
Mike, you should be ashamed of yourself. Go and think through your comment and decide if it's rational discussion you promote or vindictive retribution towards dissent. Did you just join the sycophants in the AA gang? I'm surprised and disappointed, I thought you had some independent intellectual capacity
:-)

I'm fortunate, used to investigate devices by ppl claiming 'zero' point over-unity Pwr, ALL failed but their crap claims LOL !

& worked 6 mths with ex FBI profiler (semi)retired to Perth, Western Australia & moonlighted as private investigator. I advised re electronics & collaborated on long surveillance nights during which I we traded my electronics for his psych/profiling skills spotting cons, subsequently extended re my own VC exposure

bluehigh, no sense attacking, focus on SCIENCE & FACT its all well obfuscated by ecat/blp !

Better yet, find Evidence/link to something definitive substantive - ANYthing & learn ?

I beg you, Science !
bluehigh
1 / 5 (2) Apr 29, 2015
When I first read this article Dr Mills and his catalysts immediately came to mind. Dr Mills problem is not the science. It's the politics. If what he claims is correct then it will destroy most current economic systems. It's understandable that his technology is delayed and brought into disrepute. As for Rossi - he's a stooge.

Consider ...

* You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. * - Nietzsche
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 29, 2015
bluehigh replied
Dr Mills problem is not the science. It's the politics
No. His problem IS the underlying Physics, there is implication politics is an issue - its is a known tactic to excite uneducated investors who coincidentally desire their life's work to leave a monument, classic, also well known. Same issue attempted to be exploited by AGW deniers who Cannot get a handle on the fundamental & irrefutable physics of GHG's radiative emissions :-(

Re H2, Physics supported by immense evidence confirms what we know about H2 & it is very detailed & Very well studied for >100yrs last 30+yrs re QM which has Shown remarkably accuracy !

bluehigh claims
If what he claims is correct then it will destroy most current economic systems
Big if & No, It need not, recall nation states have sovereign power to control.

bluehigh states
It's understandable that his technology is delayed and brought into disrepute
Only if H2 Physics were valid, so far No :-(

cont
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 29, 2015
bluehigh claims
As for Rossi - he's a stooge
Really Doubt it, he appears the primary driver though with followers, evidence re his history & exaggerated claims & failed ventures, one Eg

http://newenergyt...ce.shtml

bluehigh offers
Consider
* You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. * - Nietzsche
Existential philosophy unfortunately has done nothing to alleviate suffering, interesting to discuss & in relation to phenomenology esp Husserl but, other than that, no practical base. Its Physics & proof/consensus it DOES work Eg When engineered into Cat scanners, MRI, Defibrillators, Ambulances, Helicopters & myriad of drug delivery/control systems in health care etc that Nietzsche's tangential muttering appears like the anger of a sad old man who realized too late he chose the wrong profession to leave as his monument to his life :-(
bluehigh
3 / 5 (3) Apr 29, 2015
hmmm .. Mike, you insist on science and tend to dismiss 'soft science'. You seem to have little respect for logic (how did AGW get into this?) or deeper insight (philosophy). You resort to 'anger of a sad old man ... '. Perhaps it's your investment in current educational indoctrination that produces a defence? Nevertheless, you are clearly a smart bloke and it would be great if you could apply your intellect to more openly discuss alternative views. Just because an accepted theory or explanation can demonstrate successful predictions does not make it correct.

Anyway, thanks for the civil interaction, it's surprising in this forum.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (2) Apr 29, 2015
Here's a link, in fairness, that counters the prejudice and presumptuous propaganda-

http://www.meetup...scovery/
Vietvet
3.7 / 5 (3) Apr 29, 2015
Here's a link, in fairness, that counters the prejudice and presumptuous propaganda-

http://www.meetup...scovery/


@Telkinetic
The only prejudice is against scientific and financial fraud, Rossi's specialty..
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 30, 2015
bluehigh claims
Mike, you insist on science and tend to dismiss 'soft science'
Have NO idea what your 'soft science' is & is it relevant, we need 'hard' Science for rossi etc - y/n ?

bluehigh claims
You seem to have little respect for logic
No. You don't seem to see that logic in this context has a lot to do with recognizing obfuscation, Note: Just because Rossi/blp make claims has no implicit proof of logic or validity !

bluehigh asks (how did AGW get into this?) Illustrates point that not understanding scientific inquiry process re "Experimental Methodology" or don't understand underlying science AND cannot learn it - dicks resort to politics, ie NO evidentiary base re clear Physics which Demands evidentiary base !

bluehigh claims ..or deeper insight (philosophy) No.Your Nietzsche quote & my opinion of ONLY that cannot maturely be construed I have a narrow view. You ignored my ref to Husserl read up & my post re 'suffering' - ok ?

cont
Mike_Massen
1 / 5 (2) Apr 30, 2015
bluehigh claimed
You resort to 'anger of a sad old man ... '
No. Its an opinion, didn't you read my post or understand it re Husserl & alleviating suffering & in context with leaving a monument. Which monunement would any mature person want to leave for their life, something soft & not based in anything of clear evidence or something 'had' which is correctly evidentiary AND alleviates suffering ?

bluehigh claims
Perhaps it's your investment in current educational indoctrination that produces a defence?
No. Go back & re-read, you place too much credence & guess, its only an opinion !

bluehigh states
Nevertheless, you are clearly a smart bloke and it would be great if you could apply your intellect to more openly discuss alternative views
My position is clear, read re Husserl & the problem of discussing anything when education isn't equivalent

bluehigh claims .. successful predictions does not make it correct What other measure is better ?

cont
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 30, 2015
bluehigh states
Anyway, thanks for the civil interaction, it's surprising in this forum
I always start polite, what gets me annoyed is intellectual laziness, people making claims they know what's in my mind, what I hve studied etc of a very keen intrinsic progress Science has achieved & I quickly lose patience with those that can do (much) better. Read up on Husserl please and TRY to understand that making claims or guesses from minimal interactions does not help your case one bit. Get an education in Physics please and "Experimental Methodology"

fwiw
Basic tenets of human's advance of Physics are rooted in Philosophical approaches & correctly moderated by Evidence

FFS both Rossi & BLP cloak their claims in devices which have existing outputs from conventional sources very HIGH on the comparative scale - as if they are obfuscating & especially so when its VERY EASY to craft an experiment to show results DEFINITIVELY

They both have smoke & mirrors & FAIL !
Mike_Massen
2 / 5 (4) Apr 30, 2015
Telekinetic claims
Here's a link, in fairness, that counters the prejudice and presumptuous propaganda-
http://www.meetup...iscovery
Science is NOT prejudice, get your oddly acquired rose coloured glasses off & get an education in Physics & especially in "Experimental Methodology"

I repeat for those that will refuse to use the internet to get an education to at least protect themselves

It is VERY easy to craft an experiment that can show either way a definitive outcome of Rossi's & BLP's claims but, both of them FAIL at that 1st step DISMALLY !

Instead we have people crying politics re upsetting the world's economic system etc. Not true, World Bank re international banking act, IMF, United Nations etc work as a team & have crafted mechanisms to deal with such chancy wild economic pressures AND also able to be moderated by Sovereign states as well !

Notice cost of energy in real terms is on a downward slope & for decades
Telekinetic
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 30, 2015
Science and scientists are susceptible to the same mass psychology of any mob where a vested interest exists- namely money! MIT researchers were asked to assess the value of cold fusion research by the U.S. Energy Commission while running their own government funded "hot" fusion reactor experiments. Of course the MIT research committee derided the cold fusion program to protect their own source of funding. Nikola Tesla's treatment by investors and ripped off by the likes of Thomas Edison is the most glaring example of the prevention of "free" energy to be born. So Mike Massen, you're an annoying blowhard who hasn't got a clue about the real world and all of your so-called "knowledge" of physics is worthless because by clinging to it like a ragged baby's blanket, you've cut yourself off from our ever-changing understanding of physics.
Vietvet
2.3 / 5 (3) Apr 30, 2015
@Telekinetic

With every post you demonstrate lack of critical thinking and a religious adherence to put it kindly,
dubious "science".
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (2) Apr 30, 2015
And with every post from you, VietVet, is another attempt to garner the support of the like-minded on this forum by pretending to have something to contribute. Like a coward who gets a kick in on someone surrounded by a mob, you revel in your idiotic participation, never realizing that your comrades only pity you.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
Telekinetic claims
Science and scientists are susceptible to the same mass psychology (MP) of any mob where a vested interest exists- namely money
No. Science="Disciplined acquisition of knowledge", your idea arises from sad lazy uneducated people who DONT have training in 'hard' Physics, whats more to 'even the playing field' & address ANY sort of claims "mass psychology" is peer review process, just ONE verifiable CF experiment would be material for Noble & great kudos world-wide & solid commerce !

Scientists tend NOT to be easily manipulated by MP, they enter Science with desire to learn & find more, not toe old line. You are immensely emotionally attached to romantic notion a {uneducated} backyard driven individual inventor/experimenter finds something & you are immensely ignorant of history, think why nothing at all has been presented despite FACT many researchers (esp. GEC) have funds to review state of the art with Scientists on retainer constantly

cont
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
continued
@Telekinetic claims
MIT researchers were asked to assess the value of cold fusion research by the U.S. Energy Commission while running their own government funded "hot" fusion (HF) reactor experiments. Of course the MIT research committee derided the cold fusion program to protect their own source of funding.
No. You miss Physics, cold fusion is easy & common *at a level*, its probabilistically sound & Sandia has an electrical productto induce/accelerate CF to produce neutrons. You miss the point re MIT, they also receive stipends from interest from donations from many decades. IF CF was real they WOULD have run the $ numbers & found its worth FAR more by many orders than HF & MIT would have been in the running to handle engineering development & been at the forefront worldwide !

Didn't you think, the comparative economics IF MIT did find anything even on the border of "over-unity" ?

Find link to that MIT study & read the details please ?

cont
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
continued
@Telekinetic who claims
Nikola Tesla's treatment by investors and ripped off by the likes of Thomas Edison is the most glaring example of the prevention of "free" energy (FE) to be born
Eh ?
So Edison took the details of FE and suppressed them & didn't make he & Westinghouse billions !
My understanding is the only real tussle betweenTesla & Edison was AC over DC, if you have evidence to the contrary then great, besides what do you imagine was the mechanism for Tesla's FE ?

Telekinetic very stupidly claims
So Mike Massen, you're an annoying blowhard who hasn't got a clue about the real world and all of your so-called "knowledge" of physics is worthless because by clinging to it like a ragged baby's blanket, you've cut yourself off from our ever-changing understanding of physics
No. You are immensely ignorant. Physics is asymptotic. I've worked in field of Electronic Engineering/products for decades, you sir are sadly uneducated AND inexperienced !
Telekinetic
3 / 5 (2) May 01, 2015
Try reading this entire link before you return to your compulsive "diarrhea of the keyboard." -

http://www.infini...port.pdf
bluehigh
1 / 5 (2) May 01, 2015
Mike, have you considered a remedial course in comprehension? Or is alzheimers setting in? You seem confused when presented with simple explanations nowadays and resort to denigrating others education. Are you starting to feel left behind and your time wasted because of what you believe is starting to be discredited.

I feel sorry for you. Perhaps your time has passed and you are of no use anymore. Seek medical help, even the elderly and demented like yourself can improve with treatment.

Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
Telekinetic suggest
Try reading this entire link before you return to your compulsive "diarrhea of the keyboard." -
http://www.infini...port.pdf
Didnt you read my post "cold fusion" CF occurs no problems, issue is more out than in, get skill in reading ?

Besides as again it seems I'm way ahead, so get Education in Physics AND experience in how to spot wannabes, liars & flakes, I had opportunity to apprise this so long ago:-
Watch it
https://www.youtu...XShVzGNg

NEVER claimed CF doesn't occur, what is wrong with you guys read, linked you to Sandia product, why don't you guys read, is old hat ?

Why don't you guys read ?

Get EDUCATION not just in Physics but, how to spot those that obfuscate and find it essential to cloud their claims in high energy "ordinary" chemistry Eg BLP & re Rossi in natural gas & electrical ohmic heat generation.

Geesh what is up with you guys, read 1st yr uni physics, can't u guys read ?
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
bluehigh claims
Mike, have you considered a remedial course in comprehension? Or is alzheimers setting in? You seem confused when presented with simple explanations nowadays and resort to denigrating others education. Are you starting to feel left behind and your time wasted because of what you believe is starting to be discredited.
I feel sorry for you. Perhaps your time has passed and you are of no use anymore. Seek medical help, even the elderly and demented like yourself can improve with treatment
What happened to you, don't you read my posts, I asked you specific question, why can't you answer it ?
Better yet, find Evidence/link to something definitive substantive - ANYthing & learn ?
Are you closer to education OR found a link with something ANYTHING definitive ?

Do you know what "definitive" really means ?

Why do you think Roosi/BLP cloud their claimed results in high energy chem/ heat so their CF/hydrino is NOT evident ?

Straightforward deduction !
KBK
1 / 5 (1) May 01, 2015
I do tend to notice that anti-alias is always around when anything begins to touch on the idea and realization of over unity systems.

Sort of a 'commentator as control' scenario. oh so innocent looking.....
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (1) May 01, 2015
The point of my link referencing the MIT scandal is to illustrate that discoveries in physics can be dictated or controlled by insidious forces that stymie free and open investigation. This is NOT conspiracy lunacy, it is historical fact. Your concession that CF is possible is disingenuous because what you're really saying is that since the output is negligible, it's not worth going any further. Behind your contempt is that it defies thermodynamic law, so you dismiss it out of hand. I want you, Mike Massen, to live long enough to see CF producing robust amounts of energy, enough at least to cook your supper of crow.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
Telekinetic claims
The point of my link referencing the MIT scandal is to illustrate that discoveries in physics can be dictated or controlled by insidious forces that stymie free and open investigation
No. You made a political claim that MIT bowed to economic pressure to profess a scientific lie of the worst order - that is immensely offensive.

It is now appropriate to pass this on to MIT & as I understand you are in US, you are subject to US law re defamation & libel.

respectfully urge you to withdraw your stupid unintelligent claim forthwith & apprise yourself of just how MIT is funded & the ethics under which it operates & seek legal advice. Your post confirms you have NIL university education & ZERO appreciation of ethics !

Telekinetic claims
This is NOT conspiracy lunacy, it is historical fact
No. Your are the lunatic, you are ignorant of how MIT operate ! Your claim is stupid, immature & naive as to how MIT operate & you should be ashamed !

cont
Telekinetic
3 / 5 (2) May 01, 2015
"It is now appropriate to pass this on to MIT & as I understand you are in US, you are subject to US law re defamation & libel."

Ah, now I know for sure that you're a complete turd.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
Telekinetic immense stupidity claims
Your concession that CF is possible is disingenuous because what you're really saying is that since the output is negligible, it's not worth going any further
You come across as liar/obfuscator of worst kind failing cognition. NEVER stated "it is not worth going further", I pointed you to lectures by MIT, WATCH you stupid troll !
https://www.youtu...XShVzGNg
Which OBVIOUSLY shows it IS worth taking further, you weasel, you should be banned & complaint will be made once I confirm my legal position.

Telekinetic & more stupidity claims
Behind your contempt is that it defies thermodynamic law, so you dismiss it out of hand
No. Doesnt defy thermo. Haven't denied CF ever, have some remaining IQ to re-read my posts.

Telekinetic, suggesting I live long enough prove you don't read, FFS get a grip, realise by re-reading my posts, its ONLY Rossi/BLP that repeatedly fail definitive experiments !

Be mature & Grow up !
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2015
Telekinetic shows ignorance yet again
"It is now appropriate to pass this on to MIT & as I understand you are in US, you are subject to US law re defamation & libel."
Ah, now I know for sure that you're a complete turd
You are the one making unsubstantiated claims of an educational institute I hold in high regard, who is the "turd" for claiming MIT would falsify research/experimental procedures for a comparatively small amount of money when the converse - that CF was shown valid & engineered by MIT would make them billions & offer a lead in the world progress to promoting AND leading multiple CF development fields for many decades to come !

Get some sleep, speak to a lawyer & review your immensely unintelligent logic, as I said earlier & it is confirmed yet again by your most recent posts you are uneducated in Physics, stupid, naive & inexperienced in just how MIT & the charter under which it was founded operates !

Be more mature & grow up, get educated FFS !
Telekinetic
2.3 / 5 (3) May 02, 2015
Mike Massen- you dumb bucket of slime, the professor in the lecture YOU provide states clearly that "MIT does not approve of this course and will not give credit for taking it" You don't even watch your own evidence! HaHaHa! Now go get your shine box, boy!
Vietvet
3.7 / 5 (3) May 02, 2015
Mike Massen- you dumb bucket of slime, the professor in the lecture YOU provide states clearly that "MIT does not approve of this course and will not give credit for taking it" You don't even watch your own evidence! HaHaHa! Now go get your shine box, boy!


@Telekinetic

Arguments can and do get heated at times but you've crossed the line.

Reported.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (2) May 02, 2015
You're still licking your wounds from the last drubbing I gave you. You're a pathetic little tattletale like your daddy Mike.
Vietvet
3 / 5 (4) May 02, 2015
You're still licking your wounds from the last drubbing I gave you. You're a pathetic little tattletale like your daddy Mike.


You're delusional if you think you gave me a drubbing and I have wounds to lick. Your comments reflect on your lack of character and lack of intelligence.
Telekinetic
2.3 / 5 (3) May 02, 2015
All you need to know, pumpkin head, is that I'm better than you and smarter than you. You're barely literate which you've made obvious.
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (2) May 03, 2015
Telekinetic with the BEST he could do
Mike Massen- you dumb bucket of slime, the professor in the lecture YOU provide states clearly that "MIT does not approve of this course and will not give credit for taking it"
Its a LECTURE, NOT a course unit, OBVIOUSLY as such MUST have a disclaimer, Doh !

Why does Telekinetic imagine a lecture should count towards ANY accreditation or certification in terms of ANY sort of engineering/physics career path when employers EXPECT this thing called qualification, Doh ?
ie Tutorials, assignments, examinations to certification, thats for physicists etc, Doh !

Telekinetic FAILS to refute; MIT doesn't discount CF & Telekinetic FAILS to counter my position, it so proves lack of his understanding & his immense ignorance of CF

Telekinetic being offensive & unintelligent again
You don't even watch your own evidence! HaHaHa! Now go get your shine box, boy!
Had Telekinetic read my posts & THOUGHT he wouldn't look stupid AGAIN !
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (3) May 03, 2015
Mike- you thick-skulled nincompoop- the professor is saying with the utmost chagrin that to pursue CF research is "career- RUINING" and MIT will not recognize or give credit or even credence for said research. You cannot and/or will not comprehend that he is warning the attendees of his lecture that it is a dead-end subject in the eyes of your venerable but corrupt institution, MIT, and the rest of mainstream research. Now I've left my Florsheims outside the door. Get to it!
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (2) May 03, 2015
Telekinetic states
Mike- you thick-skulled nincompoop- the professor is saying with the utmost chagrin that to pursue CF research is "career- RUINING".
So what, he is ONLY commenting current perception, it doesn't mean there isnt a basis for CF & its understanding, its clear & confirms what I stated before - that CF does occur but, at a level so far not consistent with claims of Rossi

Telekinetic claims
.. MIT will not recognize or give credit or even credence for said research
Beg Pardon ?

Think you misheard, they OBVIOUSLY won't give credit re a course, thats it !

Telekinetic states
You cannot and/or will not comprehend that he is warning the attendees of his lecture that it is a dead-end subject in the eyes of your venerable but corrupt institution, MIT..
Now you claim MIT is corrupt ? You fail in basic logic :-(

Again, lecturer is lamenting current perception ONLY !

You didn't see whole video; Evidence, increase yields, loading, physics etc.
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (2) May 08, 2015
Telekinetic being offensive again
How DUMB are you, anyway, Mike Massen? That was a quote from Al Opdenaker, scientist from the DOE about HIS conversations with Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist at NASA. His name is printed at the end of the quote. What an addlepated dunderhead you are! Sickening and dismaying
Apologies, the quote fell off when I quoted due to 1000ch limit, so focused on opening however,

Doesn't invalidate my point, its hearsay, worse you nest it, its feeble & attempt to manipulate, ie just what most religions do, not smart.

Also launching into offensive language & insults without appreciating my point is that 'hearsay' is not definitive, you STILL missed that key point !

Where is ANY endorsement by ANYONE in the scientific/physics community of Rossi's power output ?

THINK man, why his device NEEDs a gas line plumbed in & CANNOT work off a starter for the CF ?

You STILL haven't retracted your defamatory claim against MIT, why Not ?

tut tut

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