Neutrons escaping to a parallel world?

Jun 15, 2012

In a paper recently published in European Physical Journal C, researchers hypothesised the existence of mirror particles to explain the anomalous loss of neutrons observed experimentally. The existence of such mirror matter had been suggested in various scientific contexts some time ago, including the search for suitable dark matter candidates.

Theoretical physicists Zurab Berezhiani and Fabrizio Nesti from the University of l'Aquila, Italy, reanalysed the experimental data obtained by the research group of Anatoly Serebrov at the Institut Laue-Langevin, France. It showed that the loss rate of very slow free neutrons appeared to depend on the direction and strength of the magnetic field applied. This anomaly could not be explained by known physics.

Berezhiani believes it could be interpreted in the light of a hypothetical parallel world consisting of mirror particles. Each would have the ability to transition into its invisible mirror twin, and back, oscillating from one world to the other. The probability of such a transition happening was predicted to be sensitive to the presence of magnetic fields, and could therefore be detected experimentally.

This neutron-mirror-neutron could occur within a timescale of a few seconds, according to the paper. The possibility of such a fast disappearance of neutrons—much faster than the ten-minute long neutron decay—albeit surprising, could not be excluded by existing experimental and astrophysical limits.

This interpretation is subject to the condition that the earth possesses a mirror on the order of 0.1 Gauss. Such a field could be induced by mirror particles floating around in the galaxy as dark matter. Hypothetically, the earth could capture the mirror matter via some feeble interactions between ordinary particles and those from parallel worlds.

Explore further: Measurement at Big Bang conditions confirms lithium problem

More information: Z. Berezhiani, F. Nesti, Magnetic anomaly in UCN trapping: signal for neutron oscillations to parallel world? (2012), European Physical Journal C 72: 1974, DOI 10.1140/epjc/s10052-012-1974-5

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tadchem
3.9 / 5 (10) Jun 15, 2012
The Schrödinger Equation permits solutions that are non-static when the principal quantum number N is allowed to take values that are rational numbers. These solutions are periodic, sort of a dynamic equilibrium.
Slow neutrons could be triggered to decay into a proton and an electron by an inhomogeneous magnetic field. If the energy released by the inelastic interaction of the neutron and the magnetic field is in the right range, then one of thse states with a 'fractional' N could be the result. Such a state of a hydrogen 'pseudoatom' would be non-radiative (delta L = 0) but would have the mass (and gravity) of a hydrogen atom. It would be indistinguishable from 'dark matter,' but very different from a neutron. To all appearances the neutron would have disappeared.
Concerning the "hypothetical parallel world consisting of mirror particles", the Principle of Parsimony says "Don't go there."
wiyosaya
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 15, 2012
I have to agree with the principle. To me, it seems like mainstream science has other examples of Alice's World, too. IMHO, it would be really nice if the present answer were "we don't know" followed by "we won't speculate" rather than there must be a "Looking Glass" somewhere because we don't understand the phenomenon.
SatanLover
1.7 / 5 (28) Jun 15, 2012
Scientist have really lost it now... parallel worlds?

Parsec
4.7 / 5 (3) Jun 15, 2012
This proposal is actually quite interesting but it seems to me that symmetry would demand that not only are slow particles transitioning from our world to a mirror world, but from that world to ours. Since the radiation signature of neutron decay is quite well known, experimentally we should see the spontaneous creation of protons and electrons. They wouldn't be hydrogen atoms of course, they would be moving away from each other at high speeds. That would make them quite detectable, and its unclear how you could detect the difference between them and normal neutron decay.
Terriva
1.9 / 5 (14) Jun 15, 2012
Neutrons are neutral particles like the neutrinos, so they should undergo the quantum fluctuations, albeit in subtle extent. In addition, because they're heavy, they would oscillate pretty slowly. The similar oscillations were observed for mesons inside of atom nuclei. The mesons are unstable charged particles in vacuum, but inside of dense nuclear matter they do behave like neutral particles (actually bosons) in the vacuum. These oscillations can be observed even for water surface solitons: in the experiment at this video the Falaco soliton disappears and emerges again after while (it's commented loudly in the middle of the video) (downvoted with satanlover).
Terriva
1.5 / 5 (16) Jun 15, 2012
Scientist have really lost it now... parallel worlds?
In dense aether theory the vacuum is formed with foam (or at least it appears so from human perspective) and the particles are spreading like perturbations (transverse waves) along membranes of this foam. The similar foam of density fluctuations can be observed in every dense gas, like the supercritical fluids. These ideas were proposed independently with mainstream physicists too and the dense aether model is just consistent with these insights.
Anyway, when the particles are moving in the above way, they're allowed to dissolve in the interior of bubbles of vacuum foam a bit, so they're spreading like the longitudinal waves in extradimensions of space-time instead of transverse waves. The similar transition is known for the vortex rings traveling across fluids as so-called Widnall's instability.
Terriva
1.3 / 5 (13) Jun 15, 2012
The Schrodinger Equation permits solutions that are non-static when the principal quantum number N is allowed to take values that are rational numbers
The temporal dissolving of quantum wave is actually quite typical behavior for Schrodinger wave solutions (you can play with it on the Java applet here). It's analogy of wobbling density fluctuations of dense gas forming the vacuum. The quantum particles are dissolving and condensing all the time - for example the quantum tunneling occurs just at the moment, when the particles and its barrier are mutually "dissolved" in the vacuum.
Code_Warrior
3.9 / 5 (11) Jun 15, 2012
I member when those there CERN police set up that OPERA speed trap to catch those neutrino street racers violating the speed limit. Those neutrinos claimed that the tickets were bs and they were just going the speed limit and that detector must have had a loose connection. Damn judge threw out the case when a loose connection was found and now they are probably out breaking the speed limits again. Now we have illegal neutrons going back and forth across the border? Don't we have enough employment problems in our own dimensions? We can't solve the employment problems of an entire parallel dimension on top of our own! What we need here is a better fence and some deterrents. That's what theses here physicists should be working on. I don't want to understand them there neutrons, I just want them stopped! They took r jobs!
Deesky
5 / 5 (8) Jun 15, 2012
IMHO, it would be really nice if the present answer were "we don't know" followed by "we won't speculate"

Yeah, brilliant strategy that: "we don't know, we won't speculate, so we'll remain ignorant forevermore".
jsdarkdestruction
1 / 5 (3) Jun 16, 2012
I have to agree with the principle. To me, it seems like mainstream science has other examples of Alice's World, too. IMHO, it would be really nice if the present answer were "we don't know" followed by "we won't speculate" rather than there must be a "Looking Glass" somewhere because we don't understand the phenomenon.

of course, speculating about the possibilities of things we dont yet understand has never helped us understand anything.....
Terriva
1.2 / 5 (10) Jun 16, 2012
IMO the whole stuff is conceptually similar to another quantum oscillation, where nobody asks, where the particle disappear during this. Of course we should ask for it and not to insist on the observed fact, that vacuum is simply void empty stuff because it appears so. Many people are willing to admit, the vacuum is ocean of virtual particles (which correspond the density fluctuation of aether environment) and we should therefore ask, why and how these particles do behave. The dense gas approximation is the first and simplest one. I can't understand, why people (who are willing to speculate, that the Universe is formed with black hole interior) are so dismissive to this concept. The "parallel universe" seems to misleading concept for me, as it doesn't explain too well, why it's willing to exchange particles with "our" universe in harmonic oscillations. But conceptually it corresponds the space-time, where the time and space coordinates are exchanged.
Terriva
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 16, 2012
Concerning the "hypothetical parallel world consisting of mirror particles", the Principle of Parsimony says "Don't go there."
The aether concept is very simple - if not trivial - and it still enables the existence of such parallel world, as the water surface analogy of it illustrates. You can have density fluctuations both above water in form of surface solitons, both underwater in form of subsurface solitons. Whole the quantum mechanics is based on vibrations and rotation in imaginary dimensions of complex plane, similar to undulations of ripples at the water surface. These extradimensions therefore do exist already in physics for many years in form of formal model of quantum mechanics and we are using it in math formalism routinely. We just cannot see it in the same way, like we cannot see the underwater motion of surface waves. I do believe the formal models which work reliably have their physical origin to
Terriva
1.4 / 5 (9) Jun 16, 2012
It should be noted, that the ultracold neutrons are surprisingly well reflected with 58-Ni isotope, which could have a close relation to the cold fusion mechanism, proposed by Widom-Larsen theory. The size/density of nickel atoms may be tuned in such a way, the volume waves of electron orbital resonate with surface waves of atom nuclei (there is strong isotopic effect for neutron optical potential).
Shady
5 / 5 (7) Jun 16, 2012
Scientist have really lost it now... parallel worlds?



Can't say no to something you know nothing about.
HannesAlfven
2.3 / 5 (9) Jun 16, 2012
The notion that it is acceptable amongst mainstream theorists to talk about parallel world inferences, but not mistakes within our scientific theories -- such as errors in the cosmic plasma models -- is really testament to the state of the more speculative modern sciences today. The confidence which we have in the less speculative sciences -- such as mechanics -- is being sloppily applied to cosmology and astrophysics. It is not that there is something which anybody can prove wrong with the notion of parallel worlds (and that is part of the point), but rather the overt preference to avoid other discussions which should be happening before we can legitimately claim that we've carefully ruled out other *physical* inferences. Sometimes, in science, one has to permit a few steps backwards before a competing inference makes itself known. If we continue to pretend that science is only a forward progression, the knowledge generated by this process will be filled with errors.
HannesAlfven
2 / 5 (8) Jun 16, 2012
Re: "This anomaly could not be explained by known physics."

So little effort has gone into pursuing lines of investigation which drastically differ from the conventional narrative, that this statement is utterly meaningless. There used to be two competing cosmologies, and the philosophical criteria which was used to disqualify the plasma-based cosmology is not today applied to the conventional cosmology. What we are seeing here is a faith in the conventional textbook theory, to the detriment of learning about alternatives. When that faith turns out to not cast light upon observations, then rather than revisiting the decision to rule out an entire cosmology, theorists would simply prefer to dabble in metaphysics. Science was not meant to deal with the question of multiple, parallel worlds. Those who want to think about those things might seriously want to contemplate the use of alternative tools for that search, for it's not a scientific question.

Meta-physics = "beyond physics".
HannesAlfven
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 16, 2012
Re: "Yeah, brilliant strategy that: "we don't know, we won't speculate, so we'll remain ignorant forevermore"."

I think the point here is that the desire to know is sometimes so strong that people are willing to break the rules of science in order to feel that they know something. But, knowledge is not always helpful in building a usefully predictive worldview. And when that knowledge becomes riddled with errors, simply because people were too quick to believe *something* instead of the right thing, then what next? At some point in time, people must admit that there are errors in our scientific theories. We will surely one day actively train students to seek them out.

But, for now, it seems that we still merely strive for knowledge.
mrlewish
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 16, 2012
Or this could just be a cased of faulty/mistuned detectors or procedural error in the experiments.
Sean_W
2.4 / 5 (5) Jun 17, 2012
IMHO, it would be really nice if the present answer were "we don't know" followed by "we won't speculate"

Yeah, brilliant strategy that: "we don't know, we won't speculate, so we'll remain ignorant forevermore".

Perhaps it would be better if they said "we don't know and we won't speculate while talking to popular press science journalists so that the general public won't go running off saying that scientists believe in parallel worlds and so should everyone else".
Terriva
1.9 / 5 (9) Jun 17, 2012
it would be better if they said "we don't know and we won't speculate while talking to popular press science journalists
Most of peer-reviewed journal refuse to publish an experimental finding, until it has no theory for phenomena observed (this is one of reasons, why cold fusion findings can never get published in Nature or Science journals). But the idea or mirror matter and parallel universes is here for a while already (at least from 1980 - it's thirty years old concept already). I do realize, the laymans who refuse everything new will fight against these concepts with the same disbelief, like against dense aether model. After all, if I would wrote, the neutrons simply disappear into parallel universe, I would get downvoted into oblivion as a crackpot without mercy - so I'm just enjoying this situation a bit.
TabulaMentis
1 / 5 (5) Jun 17, 2012
Those neutrons will not jump directly to a parallel universe without first going through the preatomic realm where dark matter resides. BTW, the word 'preatomic' is for a bottom up approach and not 'subatomic' as in a top down approach. Those mirror neutrons are 'post-atomic' particles.
Telekinetic
1.4 / 5 (9) Jun 17, 2012
If you can't accept parallel universes as a valid concept, then you'll be at a complete loss to fathom quantum entanglement, quantum computing, or any quantum state that continually pushes the boundaries of our present-day knowledge. When you rely only on your five senses to explain the nature of the universe, you're lost.
Terriva
1.4 / 5 (9) Jun 17, 2012
When you rely only on your five senses to explain the nature of the universe, you're lost.
Dense aether model is six sense from this perspective. Try to imagine, you're floating as a water-strider on the water surface and you can detect only object floating on it with surface ripples. The objects which will dissolve in the water will effectively disappear in the hidden reality for you. But because the water surface serves as a model of space-time here, the surface direction correspond the space dimensions and the remaining direction perpendicular to water surface is the time dimension. Inside of underwater the time dimension becomes a spatial dimension and the underwater represents a mirror world, with space and time dimensions exchanged.
baudrunner
3.7 / 5 (6) Jun 17, 2012
Spontaneous generation of electrons and positrons is observed in collider experiments. One can only conclude that they arise out of the photon background because they are not decay particles, so one can also reasonably conclude that particles can be returned to the photon background as well. However, a mirror reality is a far more exotic concept, and therefore more attractive to scientists who like to exercise their imaginations.
Terriva
1.4 / 5 (9) Jun 17, 2012
Before year Penrose proposed the similar perspective of parallel universe at the cosmological scale. He interpreted circles of enhanced CMBR noise as the echoes of the parallel universe from the pre-Big Bang era. In the water surface model such an echoes would corresponds the scattering of transverse surface ripples into longitudinal gravitational wave, which occurs at distance.

http://www.aether...cale.gif

We can say, we are surrounded with two parallel universes at both quantum, both cosmological scale, where the transverse surface ripples scatter into longitudinal waves in such a way, the surface wave becomes transverse and transverse waves become longitudinal ones. I don't think, such an universe actually exist, because they're observer dependent. If we would travel into distance, then the boundaries of observable Universe would move with us - it's an effect of scattering of light waves in inhomogeneous environment forming the vacuum.
Terriva
1.3 / 5 (7) Jun 17, 2012
However, a mirror reality is a far more exotic concept
Fortunately it's equivalent to the antimatter at the case of neutral particles, like the neutron and neutrino. Mirror particles interact amongst themselves in the same way as ordinary particles, except where ordinary particles have left-handed interactions, mirror particles have right-handed interactions. The neutrino behaves in the same way with respect to antineutrino. The concept of "neutron - mirror neutron" oscillations is freely alternated with concept "neutron-antineutron" oscillations in the literature.
Osiris1
1 / 5 (6) Jun 17, 2012
How about a practical application, like sending a large piece of matter into the mirror realm and having it navigate back here in one piece without damage, or maybe to a place, say, a light day away and back, or a light month or even a light year. When it gets to the real universe a light displacement away and sends a signal back bere while there. Then when it gets back, probably instantly, we wait for the signal that it sent there to arrive HERE....to compute travel time there and back by using the mirror universe like it was 'warped space' or 'superspace'. So in this way sidestep Einstein and his theologically and establishment scholastically supported eternal imprisonment of us in this system by finding new physics to engineer our escape.
TabulaMentis
2.6 / 5 (5) Jun 17, 2012
@Osiris1:
That sounds absolutely terrible. Try studying physics sometime!
TabulaMentis
1 / 5 (1) Jun 17, 2012
But because the water surface serves as a model of space-time here, the surface direction correspond the space dimensions and the remaining direction perpendicular to water surface is the time dimension.
What happened to the dodecahedron geometry?

Before year Penrose proposed the similar perspective of parallel universe at the cosmological scale. He interpreted circles of enhanced CMBR noise as the echoes of the parallel universe from the pre-Big Bang era. In the water surface model such an echoes would corresponds the scattering of transverse surface ripples into longitudinal gravitational wave, which occurs at distance.

http://www.aether...cale.gif

The illustration you show is something like what I have called a Tabula Mentis since 1991.
Terriva
1 / 5 (5) Jun 17, 2012
What happened to the dodecahedron geometry?
It's still there. The scattering of transverse waves into longitudinal ones (and vice-versa) proceeds gradually, the first and last stage are the photons and neutrinos (the solitons, i.e. the product of mutual resonance of longitudinal and transverse waves). They're already emergent particles, so their packing follows the E8 geometry of hypersphere packing. What we can see from our mirror universe at distance are the density fluctuations of dark matter, formed with neutrinos.
Terriva
1 / 5 (4) Jun 17, 2012
How about a practical application, like sending a large piece of matter into the mirror realm and having it navigate back here in one piece without damage
It sounds physically terribly, but some physicists are speculating quite seriously, some impact craters are caused with mirror matter. http://news.bbc.c...3143.stm

TabulaMentis
1 / 5 (4) Jun 17, 2012
It sounds physically terribly, but some physicists are speculating quite seriously, some impact craters are caused with mirror matter. http://news.bbc.c...3143.stm

The entire blog was terrible, not the first sentence. Yet your link brings up a good point; how mirror matter/dark matter can smooth the surface of asteroids.
rwinners
5 / 5 (4) Jun 17, 2012
Wow! What are we smoking here???
TabulaMentis
1 / 5 (2) Jun 17, 2012
Wow! What are we smoking here???
Hey man, you know how those asteroids are so round and smooth looking. That mirror matter/dark mater is some heavy stuff, man... I would have never thought asteroids traveling through space could mellow themselves out in such radical ways, man. That is some cool s--t, man.
Flap
5 / 5 (1) Jun 18, 2012
"we don't know and we won't speculate while talking to popular press science journalists so that the general public won't go running off saying that scientists believe in parallel worlds and so should everyone else".

Aha! A secret society of scientists who experiment on other planes of existence.
jibbles
5 / 5 (2) Jun 18, 2012
Wow! What are we smoking here???


answer: crack, pot.
TkClick
1.8 / 5 (6) Jun 18, 2012
The entire blog was terrible
You're just a superficial religious troll. This is blog about BBS news, which are surprisingly based on rigorous scientific studies like these ones:

http://xxx.lanl.g.../0207175
http://www.scienc...03001191

If I would link these original articles and presented some math of it, you wouldn't tell a shit about it, because you wouldn't understand the implications anyway. Such a publication would sound like any other ArXiv article about topological string theory for you (which are of roughly the same factual relevance). Just the fact, I linked to the BBS blog about it motivated you to such a superficial judgement. The internet is full of trolls like you, who judge the informations by their form instead of their actual content. I hope, you'll remember this memo for future.
TabulaMentis
2 / 5 (5) Jun 18, 2012
You're just a superficial religious troll.
I was talking about Physorg.com member Osiris1's blog and how poorly it was witten, not the Physorg article. Osiris1 gave me a '1' ranking so that gives me a right to comment about their blogging.

It would be nice if you would stop changing member names. One minute you are Terriva, the next you are TkClick.

What is your problem with me being a believer in deities?

If you are not able to convert your math into a comprehendible illustration (higher-dimensions excluded) for laymen to understand, then you are just another bullcrapper!
Terriva
1 / 5 (3) Jun 18, 2012
I was talking about Physorg.com member Osiris1's blog
It's possible, but you did it in a wrong context. Explanations were accepted, charges were dropped to my great regret ..
wiyosaya
1 / 5 (1) Jun 18, 2012
IMHO, it would be really nice if the present answer were "we don't know" followed by "we won't speculate"

Yeah, brilliant strategy that: "we don't know, we won't speculate, so we'll remain ignorant forevermore".

Speculating out-loud in public is far different from researching your speculations before spouting them in public - eh? Not many who thought so well to respond to my post seem capable of grasping this concept. Out after research dollars, are you?

I don't think the world would mind if you remained ignorant.
TkClick
1 / 5 (2) Jun 19, 2012
The neutron has an antiparticle trait: we could say, it contains an antiparticle, i.e. negatively curved space-time in itself. I can compare the neutron to so-called antibubble: when such an antibubble (a neutron) will pop, a tiny bubble (a neutrino) will be released. This gives the neutron a properties of a floater bouncing at the space-time brane in similar way, like the normal floater is bouncing at the water surface. The large mass of neutron just makes this bouncing slower with compare to neutrino.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (3) Jun 19, 2012
" i.e. negatively curved space-time in itself. I can compare the neutron to so-called antibubble:"- TkClick
It occurred to me that negative space-time is a misnomer, or an inadequate description of this extra dimension. There is a tendency to see things in terms of exact opposites, when the dimension in question may have properties that are completely unique and even unrelated to our own, despite an insistence to find cosmic symmetry.
Zed123
3.5 / 5 (2) Jun 19, 2012
After all, if I would wrote, the neutrons simply disappear into parallel universe, I would get downvoted into oblivion as a crackpot without mercy - so I'm just enjoying this situation a bit.


But thats because you are a crackpot Terriva....
TkClick
1 / 5 (2) Jun 20, 2012
I'm just trying to explain concepts, which mainstream physicists are piling in an effort to keep their jobs and salaries with universal model. I'm using exactly the mirror world, which they're describing: the intuitive concepts (longitudinal waves) against deterministic models (transverse waves). The same approach Copernicus has used, when he described the solar system from extrinsic perspective instead of intrinsic one, which proponents of mainstream occupied.

So I don't expect, I'll be celebrated for it just with mainstream physicists. The people educated in some perspective will never admit, there is some mirror option, how to describe things. Will you?
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (4) Jun 20, 2012
I've stated here already that I'm an adherent of David Deutsch's perspective of reality, who has taken a "mirrored" concept many steps further, so if you're directing your query to me, you're preaching to the choir. The image that comes to mind is Duchamp's "Nude Descending a Staircase", where all permutations of outcomes are simultaneous and as "real" as another. Can you understand then, given this point of view, how a single "mirror" image would fall short of a complete explanation?
Nikstlitselpmur
1 / 5 (3) Jun 21, 2012
There is no escaping here.
dondare
5 / 5 (1) Jun 21, 2012
"A Wreath of Stars" by science writer Bob Shaw was published in 1978. His theory was that a parallel universe could be observed by detecting anti-neutrinos.
TkClick
1 / 5 (1) Jun 21, 2012
that a parallel universe could be observed by detecting anti-neutrinos
In some theories the sterile neutrinos should correspond to mirror neutrinos instead. I don't think, it's quite exact insight phenomenologically, but if something will disappear from our sight, we can attribute it to whatever unobservable concept.
jim_bobway_5
5 / 5 (2) Jun 22, 2012
Scientist have really lost it now... parallel worlds?



Can't say no to something you know nothing about.


Yeah... You know. If you can't really explain it then just make something up. You have "Scientist" in your title so the rubes will believe anything you say as long as it sounds technical...
TkClick
1 / 5 (3) Jun 22, 2012
The mirror matter and parallel universe have some meaning in dense aether model. The vacuum has a foamy honeycomb structure composed of irregular dodecahedrons at both macroscopic, both microscopic scales which is the consequence of particle packing E8 geometry. Now you can imagine, that the invisible parts of Universe sitting at the outside cells correspond the sibling of our observable Universe. They're residing in neigbouring cells of the largest cell, which we can recognize in this structure. The circles in which these large cells are connected correspond so-called Penrose circles, which were discussed last year. The same quantum foam extension should exist at the microscopic scale and the observable particle may undulate between "our" part of quantum foam and the "parallel" one. They will change into dual particles of mirror symmetry, with symmetry of particle fluctuations inverted (left-hand spiral vortex will change into right-hand ones and vice-versa) and time arrow is reversed
slayerwulfe
not rated yet Jun 22, 2012
tadchem your comment definitely into my data base a beautiful explanation of how not to become an idiot i want everyone i know to see it.