Discovering a previously unknown role for a source of magnetic fields

Surprise finding: Discovering a previously unknown role for a source of magnetic fields
Physicists Jackson Matteucci and Will Fox with poster displaying their research. Credit: Elle Starkman/PPPL Office of Communications

Magnetic forces ripple throughout the universe, from the fields surrounding planets to the gasses filling galaxies, and can be launched by a phenomenon called the Biermann battery effect. Now scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL) have found that this phenomenon may not only generate magnetic fields, but can sever them to trigger magnetic reconnection—a remarkable and surprising discovery.

The Biermann battery effect, a possible seed for the magnetic fields pervading our universe, arises in plasmas —the state of matter composed of free electrons and atomic nuclei—when the temperature and density are misaligned. The tops of such plasmas might be hotter than the bottoms, and the density might be greater on the left side than on the right. This misalignment gives rise to an electromotive force that generates current that leads to magnetic fields. The process is named for Ludwig Biermann, a German astrophysicist who discovered it in 1950.

Revealed through computer simulations

The new findings reveal through computer simulations a previously unknown role for the Biermann effect that could improve understanding of reconnection—the snapping apart and violent reconnection of lines in plasmas that gives rise to northern lights, solar flares and geomagnetic space storms that can disrupt cell-phone service and electric grids on Earth.

The results "provide a new platform for replicating in the laboratory the reconnection observed in astrophysical plasmas," said Jackson Matteucci, a graduate student in the Program in Plasma Physics at PPPL and lead author of a description of the process in Physical Review Letters. Coauthors of the paper include his thesis advisers, Will Fox of PPPL and Amitava Bhattacharjee, head of the PPPL Theory Department, and researchers from other laboratories.

The simulations modeled published results of experiments in China that studied high-energy-density (HED) plasma —matter under extreme pressure such as exists in the core of the Earth. The experiments, in which PPPL played no part, used lasers to blast a pair of plasma bubbles from a solid metal target. Simulations of the three-dimensional plasma traced the expansion of the bubbles and the magnetic fields that the Biermann effect created, and tracked the collision of the fields to produce magnetic reconnection.

The simulations showed that temperature spiked in the reconnecting lines and reversed the role of the Biermann effect that originated the lines. Because of the spike, the Biermann effect destroyed the it had created, cutting them like a pair of scissors cutting a rubber band. The sliced fields then reconnected downstream, away from the original reconnection point. "This is the first to show Biermann battery-mediated magnetic reconnection," Matteucci said. "This process had never been known before."

Tracking billions of ions and electrons

Modeling the HED experiments required tracking billions of ions and electrons interacting with one another and with the electric and magnetic fields that their motion created, in what are called 3-D kinetic simulations. Researchers carried out these simulations on the Titan supercomputer at the DOE Oak Ridge Leadership Computing Facility (OLCF) at Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

The scientists have since modeled a British experiment and are working on simulations of experiments performed at the Laboratory for Laser Energetics (LLE) at the University of Rochester and the National Ignition Facility at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.


Explore further

No longer whistling in the dark: Scientists uncover source of perplexing waves

More information: J. Matteucci et al, Biermann-Battery-Mediated Magnetic Reconnection in 3D Colliding Plasmas, Physical Review Letters (2018). DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.095001
Journal information: Physical Review Letters

Citation: Discovering a previously unknown role for a source of magnetic fields (2018, October 19) retrieved 19 June 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2018-10-previously-unknown-role-source-magnetic.html
This document is subject to copyright. Apart from any fair dealing for the purpose of private study or research, no part may be reproduced without the written permission. The content is provided for information purposes only.
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Oct 19, 2018
This is exactly what I have been saying for hundreds of years.

Thank you for your support.

Oct 19, 2018
@hat
This is exactly what I have been saying for hundreds of years
ROTFLMFAO
5 stars for that

.

.

Now scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL) have found that this phenomenon may not only generate magnetic fields, but can sever them to trigger magnetic reconnection
well *that* is going to piss off some eu fanatics...

Oct 19, 2018

Now scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL) have found that this phenomenon may not only generate magnetic fields, but can sever them to trigger magnetic reconnection well *that* is going to piss off some eu fanatics...


Yeah maybe those who support rivers of electric currents pervading the universe to power stars but not the simple idea that EM forces play a larger role than gravity in the overall structure and formation of astrophysical phenomena.

A simple change in temperature or density of plasma will create a separation of charge which cascades into double layers, currents, etc.

Oct 19, 2018
@rossim
but not the simple idea that EM forces play a larger role than gravity in the overall structure and formation of astrophysical phenomena
well, that isn't eu so much as plasma universe/cosmology, right?

https://en.wikipe...osmology

Cosmologists and astrophysicists who have evaluated plasma cosmology have rejected it because it does not match the observations of astrophysical phenomena as well as current cosmological theory. Very few papers supporting plasma cosmology have appeared in the literature since the mid-1990s
personally, I don't mind waiting for the evidence to come in rather than speculating about it all

Oct 19, 2018
@rossim
well, that isn't eu so much as plasma universe/cosmology, right?

https://en.wikipe...osmology


Most of the ideas are pretty synonymous. If you ask a typical mainstream supporter they will tell you it's all bs anyways and go back to worshiping DM.

personally, I don't mind waiting for the evidence to come in rather than speculating about it all


Well where's the fun in that?

Oct 19, 2018
@rossim
Well where's the fun in that?
thought about this:

fun is subjective

speculation and dreaming is important in society, IMHO, but unless constrained, it can be a detriment in science (see: "rivers of electric currents pervading the universe to power stars" supporters)

fun for some people would be: hypothesize, devise tests and/or experiments, observe, validate

for others, it's all in the speculation

the problem for the former isn't in the speculation but rather in the speculator's claim of scientific credulity, which is offensive to those who find science and it's methodology fun
Most of the ideas are pretty synonymous
well that sure as hell doesn't help the pc group... I would think they would want to disassociate from the radical eu crowd?
worshiping DM
no
following the evidence using the scientific method

Oct 19, 2018
@hat
This is exactly what I have been saying for hundreds of years
ROTFLMFAO
5 stars for that

.

.

Now scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL) have found that this phenomenon may not only generate magnetic fields, but can sever them to trigger magnetic reconnection
well *that* is going to piss off some eu fanatics...


Hahaha I can hear the screaming denial from here!!

Oct 19, 2018
speculation and dreaming is important in society, IMHO, but unless constrained, it can be a detriment in science

I think instead of speculating, you could call it 'asking a question' which would fit neatly in the scientific method.

Speculating is like observing galactic rotation anomaly then assuming new physics must be responsible. Scientists rationally got to that point of no return but we could delve into the philosophy of scientific theory and see why only one possible ad hoc explanation can be an indicator of a faulty theory.
well that sure as hell doesn't help the pc group... I would think they would want to disassociate from the radical eu crowd?

Condemning a primarily gravitational mechanism of star or planet formation in any way would be described as radical.
As many have said before, I don't think there's really an "EU model".
EU says current pinches and creates a star, I think separation of charge within a cloud of plasma is all that's req'd.

Oct 19, 2018
.....but not the simple idea that EM forces play a larger role than gravity in the overall structure and formation of astrophysical phenomena.


Which is just word salad, isn't it? Where are the hypotheses? The predictions? Hell, a list of the things they think where EM is more important than gravity? Not at galactic scales, is it? Been there, done that. Gravity totally dominates. Solar system scales? Where, exactly? The problem with EU is that there are no hypotheses, or models, whatever you want to call them. No maths, no equations (except from Don Scott, and he f***s them up!). It is all just prose. Word salad, that is. Philosophy. Faith. Zero science.


Oct 19, 2018
Actually, the Biermann Battery effect is what is amazing scientists, and the fact that it has an ability to short-circuit in one place, to reconnect separately on either side is not out of line with what has been considered for EU/Plasma Cosmology.

This also appears to be be a subset of the Walter Russell Cosmogeny where Light is Everything, THE elemental particle, which just happens to be THE Electromagnetic field carrier itself. Anywhere there is light, or photons, there is an electromagnetic field potential.

The idea of field connection being broken and reforming elsewhere in a plasma is not That surprising, what is funny is them being surprised with it. Electricity and it's currents have been known to do decidedly weird, counter-intuitive things, and we have had to learn how to live with them and use them.

But again this shows how important the study of electromagnetic effects of plasma and it's effects of cosmology really are. They are Not a trivial subset of effects.

Oct 19, 2018
Actually, the Biermann Battery effect is what is amazing scientists, and the fact that it has an ability to short-circuit in one place, to reconnect separately on either side is not out of line with what has been considered for EU/Plasma Cosmology.


Errrm, when was EU/ PC formed? Probably the 70's for PC, which is now dead. Much later for EU, which was never alive. Biermann (a perfectly mainstream scientist) proposed this mechanism in 1950. And it has been invoked numerous times since. It has nothing at all to do with EU woo. And reconnection is most definitely denied by EUists. So, all in all, this has no relevance whatsoever to either EU or PC.
Biermann, incidentally, proposed that the solar wind's existence was visibly manifested in the tails of comets, which led to Alfven's oft cited paper from 1957. He also suggested the model that showed how the solar wind was affected by an outgassing comet. Clever chap.


Oct 19, 2018
And why should this particular idea 'piss the EU crowd off' when it actually proves what a major point that EU states, and that is anytime you have a difference of states in a plasma, that it will form an electric current and a magnetic field to go along with it.

The very fact that this happens, and that it can create it's own disconnect and reconnect effects is in direct conflict with just about everything JD has spouted in his Anti-EU rants.

"Where is the Source, where is the anode and cathode, what proof do you have?" All jonsie rants and all of them totally shattered by the very Biermann Battery effect where if there is a temperature or pressure difference or gradient, then there WILL BE an co-existing charge, current and magnetic field to go along with.

Which is the very same effect I have described continually, only to be derided. Now the mechanism and proof of currents in space is given.

Or did you not understand that is what the article is stating in plain terms?

Oct 19, 2018
OH, AGAIN Jonsie suddenly jumps sides on the issue, How Very Convenient. It certainly does not agree with any and all of your previous statements and bullying jdackass BS, so why don't you go and actually find a day job to keep you busy.

Oct 19, 2018
The very fact that this happens, and that it can create it's own disconnect and reconnect effects is in direct conflict with just about everything JD has spouted in his Anti-EU rants.


Because EU loons deny that magnetic reconnection happens! Why do I have to explain your own cult's dogma to you?


Oct 19, 2018
OH, AGAIN Jonsie suddenly jumps sides on the issue, How Very Convenient. It certainly does not agree with any and all of your previous statements and bullying jdackass BS, so why don't you go and actually find a day job to keep you busy.


Get a life, you uneducated poser. I have known about Biermann for a long time, and his papers.

Oct 19, 2018
OH, AGAIN Jonsie suddenly jumps sides on the issue, How Very Convenient. It certainly does not agree with any and all of your previous statements and bullying jdackass BS, so why don't you go and actually find a day job to keep you busy.


And we are talking about the production, in the very early universe, of teeny tiny seed fields. Which are then proposed to be amplified by the dynamo effect. It has nothing whatsoever to do with non-existent intergalactic currents! Lol.

Oct 19, 2018
For anybody interested, there is a reasonably succinct description of the Biermann Battery effect, and the sort of fields it can produce, in Section 6.2.2 of this;

http://www.ita.un...beit.pdf

Oct 19, 2018
Actually they are talking about the widespread production of current and magnetism in the Present Universe and just about Everywhere since space is so very anisotropic.

Get a grip JD, now you are working to disprove all of your previous statements. If you REALLY understood the Biermann effect than you would never even question the idea/possibility of large areas of seemingly vacuum to be highly charged and attractive, as well as carrying a current.

Instead you have been, vociferously and extremely rudely putting down anyone who points out these rather self evident effects to the point large numbers here consider you akin to a rabid dog on it's last leg.

Your Electro-Phobia is rather extreme, I wonder how you allow yourself to use the computer.

Oct 19, 2018
Actually they are talking about the widespread production of current and magnetism in the Present Universe and just about Everywhere since space is so very anisotropic.


No they aren't.


Oct 19, 2018
Your Electro-Phobia is rather extreme, I wonder how you allow yourself to use the computer.


And your ignorance knows no bounds. You don't understand anything about astrophysics or plasma physics, do you?

Here is what the authors conclude;

In addition to in HED regimes, we show using the dimensionless parameter RBiermann that Biermann-mediated reconnection may play a role in turbulent 3D reconnection within the magnetosheath, which may be observed by the Magnetospheric Multiscale Mission. We further propose that this effect could be important in heliosheath and in mediating the initial fast reconnection necessary for large-scale dynamo.


So, your statement;

Actually they are talking about the widespread production of current and magnetism in the Present Universe and just about Everywhere since space is so very anisotropic.


is just something you made up, having not read the paper, correct?


Oct 19, 2018
And all this above is based on the generation of a phenomenon that EUists say doesn't exist, i.e. magnetic reconnection! You guys need to make your minds up what it is that you do and do not believe.

Oct 19, 2018
It should also be pointed out that the 'HED' in the part of the paper I quoted above , = High energy-density. That does not apply to galactic or inter-galactic plasmas. Nor the solar wind. They are quite specific about where it could apply in non-HED regimes. The magnetosheath and the heliosheath. And then only to drive reconnection. Which EUists don't believe in. Or do they? It's getting hard to tell what they do or do not believe in. I'm guessing that they make it up as they go.

Oct 19, 2018
"Your Electro-Phobia is rather extreme"

Yes, Jones is a Mechanical Astrophysicist, but he's right about EU baloney.

Oct 19, 2018
MR Jd, it is pretty damn obvious that we do believe in magnetic reconnection as it is one of the major energy transfer processes in the Universe, just like we believe in the electric connections involved in chemical bonds, most of us believe that the electromagnetic fields of large masses of cool atoms actually condensed first, under local charge conditions than from gravitational conditions as there were not yet enough dense masses to provide a gravitational attraction, so the Initial Vectors were derived from electric and magnetic effects in the expansions and contractions of the universe.

We observe galaxies jetting raw, single protons and electrons out to hundreds of thousands of light years, but the jets are stopped by the (now found) intergalactic medium, and eventually cools to the point it can condense back to atomic hydrogen, yet is still too hot to be molecular Hydrogen. (ctnd)

Oct 19, 2018
MR Jd, it is pretty damn obvious that we do believe in magnetic reconnection...


Nope, ask cantthink. EU is dead set against MR. Don Scott also dismisses it.

Also see this piece of fail;

https://www.thund...etic.htm

Oct 19, 2018
We are finding more and more clouds of apparently pristine hydrogen gas with low metalicity, and the obvious place for many of those stars to be forming would be along the edges of our nice Fermi Bubbles, the ones presumably blown by the jets from our now quisient central black hole (which yes, some of us actually believe in, although there are a WIDE number of explanations, even among mainstream types). These stars would likely be clumps forming what we find as globular clusters and loose clusters, which have their own orbits as a mass.

This provides for recycling of the materials drawn to the central black holes and across a wide range, there is a distinct gradient of pressure and temperature, and even high energies, since we see it at gamma and X-ray levels.

So, there is widespread motions, cooling, clumping, turbulence and star formation right along with plasma flow and the creation of current and magnetic fields due to the present gradients in the plasma fields.

Oct 19, 2018
^^^^^^^^^^None of which has anything to do with this article or magnetic reconnection.

Oct 19, 2018
I have CD on ignore as well as he is as monotonous as you are JD, I had figured that since you claim to be a smart guy that you would be figuring out that this material pretty much eliminates what you have been trying to Destroy US over, and that is the fact that almost ANY amount of the plasmas we currently in space as our solar wind can create a magnetic field and electric current across wide distances, even intergalactic filaments and clusters exhibit higher than expected levels of magnetism.

It is a matter of trying to show the REST of the people who read here that there is intelligent discourse here and that some people actually have credible original thinking, where all you have displayed is a cranky broken record where it comes to some subjects, and you apparently do not undestand the Biermann Battery idea very well at all because they are using it to describe stuff going on NOW, Solar Flares, Aurorae, 'space weather' Which You claim cannot exist. Yet they fully track it.

Oct 19, 2018
In that last one ye referenced JD, with the line saying it has nothing to do with the article or magnetic connection, read again:

"... right along with plasma flow and the creation of current and magnetic fields due to the present gradients in the plasma fields."

This is where the magnetic (not magic, just magnetic) fields, current and plasma happen, and it just happens to be one of those properties of plasma, this connection, disconnection and reconnection. Happens all the time.

Ever watch a thunder storm? Electrical charge happening due to friction as well as different pressures, ground charge as well as air charge. Is still plasma making connections, breaking and reconnecting several times a second in any one bolt.

They are stating this as a new way to study the effects in the lab, as they finally have the tools to be able to match the Math from Biermann with the Equipment and computing powers of today.

And it all connects (pun intended).


Oct 19, 2018
you apparently do not undestand the Biermann Battery idea very well at all because they are using it to describe stuff going on NOW, Solar Flares, Aurorae, 'space weather' Which You claim cannot exist. Yet they fully track it.


No, you idiot. You did not understand the paper, did you? Did you even read it you poser? It says nothing of the bloody sort, you moron. Email the sodding author if you don't believe me, you clueless clown. I even pasted part of the paper above, and you are still too thick to understand it. Bugger off, and get an education. Stop making uyp sh!t about subjects in which you are clearly out of your depth. Your lot don't believe in MR. Remember? Idiot.


Oct 19, 2018
... right along with plasma flow and the creation of current and magnetic fields due to the present gradients in the plasma fields


Just read the paper, you idiot, yes?


Oct 19, 2018
Have you yet to see me ever reference the thunderbolts Program? I don't, and Wont, they have some facts straight, pretty basic ones, but they have others that seem to be wildly taken out of context and much misinterpreted in some of their work.

So, while they claim to be EU, they are not always cutting edge. Now, Ben Davidson (suspiciousobservers.com) who has written the peer reviewed book "Weatherman's Guide to the Sun", even though he holds a closer to the Thunderbolts Project than I prefer, his work is very good on a long term basis with his predictions, and he is honest when reality does not meet his predictions or model, but is models are top rate and he is able to explain space weather intelligibly and coherently without getting into Big Woo, as some do.

Now, he Does point out some interesting effects that they find, but also points out that he is waiting for confirmation of that sort of activity from instrument platforms in situ before making difinitive statements.

Oct 19, 2018
Now, Ben Davidson (suspiciousobservers.com) who has written the peer reviewed book "Weatherman's Guide to the Sun", even though he holds a closer to the Thunderbolts Project than I prefer, his work is very good on a long term basis with his predictions....


Oh Jesus! Ben Davidson is a complete crank! He is frigging nutso!
And he is certainly not honest.

https://realitych...ore-1687


Oct 19, 2018
MR Jd, it is pretty damn obvious that we do believe in magnetic reconnection...


Nope, ask cantthink. EU is dead set against MR. Don Scott also dismisses it.

Also see this piece of fail;

https://www.thund...etic.htm


Jonesdave is right, most EU literature is against magnetic reconnection.

One of EU's issues with it is that magnetic field lines don't actually exist except to help visualize the path of an charged particle in a given magnetic field. That trajectory is imaginary so it cannot break and reconnect.

I think they prefer to describe the phenomenon as exploding double layers.

Oct 19, 2018
So, while they claim to be EU, they are not always cutting edge


EU is the cult set up by the Velikovskian loon Thornhill and Talbott. One of their leading lights, is Don Scott. Thunderdolts is Talbott's creation. The EU rejects magnetic reconnection, black holes, dark matter, believe in an electric sun, electric comets, electric cratering, gigaparsec invisible currents, etc, etc. It seems to me that you disavow that pile of fail in its entirety. So you are not an EUist, are you?
Ben conman Davidson is not a part of EU. He has given talks at a few of their loopy conferences.

Oct 19, 2018
Ahh, so you DID read the article, amazing, yet you still fail to comprehend all of the ramifications that it presents, since while they are studying the high energy regimes, Solar Prominences with their dramatic disruption and reconnections, such as solar flares, are of the very high energy regime that they, and I, are talking about.

The Corona, producing the solar wind, is another such high energy regime with fair density due to the heat. Their statement that the Biermann Battery Effect happens ANY TIME there is a difference across a range, or a gradient, of either heat or pressure, that THERE WILL BE Motion that WILL produce and electrical current, and that, in turn, WILL create a magnetic field, across all ranges of plasma, not just singular high energy-density areas, it is just move evident in those areas and thus easier to study.

The fact that they found the disconnect-reconnect at moderate energies will improve their models significantly.

Oct 19, 2018
I think they prefer to describe the phenomenon as exploding double layers.


Which has been shown to be wrong by lab experiments and numerous in-situ observations.

Oct 19, 2018
The Corona, producing the solar wind, is another such high energy regime with fair density due to the heat.


No, you are making sh!t up again. Didn't read the paper, did you? I even quoted from it for the hard of thinking, and you still insist on lying about their findings and conclusions. That is certainly something you have in common with most EUists.


Oct 19, 2018
Ahh, so you DID read the article...


Yes, and I read the paper as well. You didn't did you?

Oct 19, 2018
Their statement that the Biermann Battery Effect happens ANY TIME there is a difference across a range, or a gradient, of either heat or pressure, that THERE WILL BE Motion that WILL produce and electrical current, and that, in turn, WILL create a magnetic field, across all ranges of plasma,


STOP f***ing lying, you idiot. Show me where that is said in the paper. I've already quoted their conclusions, you bloody liar. The solar wind is NOT an HED regime, you idiot. Nor is intragalactic space. Nor is intergalactic space. Email them you clown, instead of lying about what they are saying.

Oct 19, 2018
Well, Rossim, with the magnetic field lines supposedly invisible, and mainly to denote a specific charge level (actually at specific quantum energy separations) and yet we see them very well illuminated in the prominences, loops and plasma ropes that we see in the solar atmosphere.

We also see them with the traditional bar magnet and iron filings, and again it tends to be based on the electron energy levels of the shells and the iron filing lines up along the magnetic line closest and not already taken. Doing this underwater with very fine filings gives some very interesting results.

Let's say I am an EU'ist who has thrown out a lot of the garbage 'science' that has been attributed to it. Heck, if we were still blaming mainstream science for every mistake they made we would not be past Archimedes yet. And truthfully, many who call themselves EU (and MS) have some damned stupid ideas on reality, and they can make their mistakes as they will. But don't blame me for it!

Oct 19, 2018
^^^^So which bloody part of EU do you believe, given that you have trashed all of its central tenets?

Oct 19, 2018
JD, From the abstract of that paywalled paper it points out directly that: (in the experiment with two laser produced metal plasma plumes)

"The collision of the two plasmas drives the formation of a current sheet, where reconnection occurs in a strongly time- and space-dependent manner, demonstrating a new 3D reconnection mechanism."

And:

"We present a simple and general formulation to consider the relevance of Biermann-mediated reconnection in general astrophysical scenarios."

In which they are talking about aurorae, CME's, Solar Flares etc, as the article above explicitly states as well.

Oct 19, 2018
^^^^And? As I keep telling you, the solar wind, galactic plasmas and intergalactic plasmas are not HED regimes. So it is irrelevant, isn't it? And we bloody well know the reconnection happens in solar flares. EU does not believe that. We know it happens in the magnetosheath. EU denies that. So, what are you on about? There are currents in solar flares? Yes, we bloody well know that. One of the pre-requisites of MR is the ideal MHD breaks down, and a Hall current is created. There is oodles in the literature about it. Try reading some of it.

Oct 19, 2018
Duplicate.

Oct 19, 2018
JD, being a Mainstream Scientists tends to mean that you are a follower, that you only are able to regurgitate what was spoon fed to you previously by your educators. Those that are 'cutting edge' are almost ALWAYS considered 'loons' or 'illogical' or some such, until enough information piles up, as with Einstein's, Darwin's, Newton's, Galileo's and countless other 'ahead of the pack' researchers having ideas that go similar to others thinking, but remove the unworkable parts and find explanations for a clearer understanding, as science works.

I have no fear of being called a fool, but I AM trying to educate you to the fact that electromagnetism has a much bigger effect as Cosmological Scales than we have been taught to believe, and the evidence is coming in on that now that our instrumentation is of the quality it can make such difficult detections. But they are, and they are being Continually surprised by where and how strong the fields are; Well beyond expectations.

Oct 19, 2018
I have no fear of being called a fool, but I AM trying to educate you to the fact that electromagnetism has a much bigger effect as Cosmological Scales than we have been taught to believe, and the evidence is coming in on that now that our instrumentation is of the quality it can make such difficult detections. But they are, and they are being Continually surprised by where and how strong the fields are; Well beyond expectations.


Hahahahahaha. You are trying to educate me? You don't have any relevant qualifications, and don't have a bloody clue about the subject. Go away and educate yourself first, you clueless fool. You have to lie and obfuscate to make a point, and don't even have access to the bloody papers that you lie and obfuscate about, you clown.


Oct 19, 2018
Has anyone been able to reproduce the simulated results?

Oct 19, 2018
JD, Quit with the "EU says that dont happen BS" OK, and YOU will be a lot happier. Some idiots IN the EU fringes may think so, but most are mainstream scientists who believe as I do, and throw away such BS ideas when the evidence is literally in our face. There is a spectrum of EU beliefs, some rational and based in hard science, and then some, who like you and your lack of solid attachment to MODERN mainstream science, are more attracted to woo, like those that go for Dark Mater WOO, where there is NO proof it exists other than some orbital dynamics that can as easily be attributed to already known forces, if properly modeled at their newfound strengths, and rebuild their models from there and see what they get.

They say that is ongoing, so I await data.

YOU keep making these strawmen and then demanding I adhere to them, I call BULLSHIT on your whole methodology, you act like some kind of psychic vampire who raises angst to feed off from the ill feelings created. If so.

Oct 19, 2018
I do not lie, and have no need to obfuscate, unlike yourself. I am afraid you must be projecting your own methods on me, sorry, but that crap dont stick here. And EVERYBODY Else Here sees that you keep sticking your foot in your mouth, and do not even have the good graces to admit it, let alone take the foot back Out of the mouth.

Oct 19, 2018
JD, Quit with the "EU says that dont happen BS" OK, and YOU will be a lot happier. Some idiots IN the EU fringes may think so, but most are mainstream scientists who believe as I do, and throw away such BS ideas when the evidence is literally in our face.


No, they are not mainstream scientists. And EU, as Rossim says, most definitely deny magnetic reconnection. Stop lying. I've already linked to them saying as much. You want a link to the closest person they've got to a scientist? Don Scott? He denies it too. So, which EU high fliers (lol) are saying otherwise, and where are they saying it? Otherwise, you are lying.


Oct 19, 2018
And EVERYBODY Else Here sees that you keep sticking your foot in your mouth, and do not even have the good graces to admit it, let alone take the foot back Out of the mouth.


Errrr, where did anyone sane say that? Stop lying, woo boy.


Oct 19, 2018
I have no fear of being called a fool, but I AM trying to educate you to the fact that electromagnetism has a much bigger effect as Cosmological Scales than we have been taught to believe,


Steely......here's an interesting paper you could peruse for a couple hours:

https://ned.ipac....an4.html

.......buttresses a lot of what you're saying. You need to click on the Contents each time to make the different sections show up, it seems the Next button has broken links. It's a really nicely written paper that points out how the Bierman battery is the seed startup phase & moves on to a KE dynamo phase. The guy is from CalTech so we're not reading an EU bias here.

Oct 19, 2018
[.....buttresses a lot of what you're saying.


Lol. No it doesn't! EU wooists think galactic magnetic fields are caused by currents currently zapping around unnoticed. The Biermann Battery explains how they were formed very early in the universe, and amplified by dynamo effects. In other words - no need for currents to explain their existence unless you want to go back billions of years to the initial tiny fields created.

Oct 19, 2018
JD, Big Hint, quit telling 'us' what 'we' think, ok, because your rectocranial inversion is so deep that you are only hearing your own bile duct as it squirts into you ear.

WE are telling YOU what WE think, OK, and it is not the pile of dogcrap you keep laying out and saying is ours, because frankly it is not. As I have stated before, there is a wide spectrum of EU type thinkers, most of us stay quiet until heavy proofs come along, and this showing of widespread, ongoing and very active Biermann Battery effect being the present driver for many astrophysical effects we see. Reading the paper by Jennifer Schober actually sows a LOT more use of electromagnetism and the effects than even you are admitting to, JD, even though you gave the site for the paper, you certainly cherrypicked the data and dont even properly understand what it means.

She says ANYTIME there is a disequilibrium state with plasma there WILL BE Current and magnetic field which mutually reinforce.

Oct 19, 2018
WE are telling YOU what WE think, OK, and it is not the pile of dogcrap you keep laying out and saying is ours, because frankly it is not.


BS you lying prick. Want me to link to the EU beliefs on their own f***ing site? You are not an EUist. You have disavowed ALL of their central tenets, you idiot. Whatever crap you believe is not EU,ok? So stop speaking as if you were one of their loons, and just admit that you are an independent loon.

Oct 19, 2018
Do you REALLY think that this physical process, based on the laws of magnetohydrodynamics, is going to stop for some reason after it has begun, do You have any proof at all stating that it is not happening on a continuous basis, as these scientists posit? Where is Your Proof?

You keep saying that the magnetic effect is miniscule, well, the very paper that was pointed out:

"Observations confirm that magnetic fields in galaxies are dynamically important, as they have an energy density up to...ten times higher than the thermal energy density of the ionised gas. Recent studies confirm that magnetic fields can not only be found within galaxies, but also in the intergalactic medium." Sect 6.1 from http://www.ita.un...eit.pdf.

Which Jonsie INSISTS Cannot Exist, and will berate and throw all kinds of abuse at you even once you find all of the proofs he requires.

Jonsie, do you argue just to argue? If so there ARE programs for that.

Oct 19, 2018
Biermann Battery effect being the present driver for many astrophysical effects we see. Reading the paper by Jennifer Schober actually sows a LOT more use of electromagnetism and the effects than even you are admitting to, JD, even though you gave the site for the paper, you certainly cherrypicked the data and dont even properly understand what it means.


Quit with the lying, woo boy. What paper by Jennifer Schrober? The paper's lead author is J. Matteucci. Schrober doesn't feature. And I've read the paper 3 times, and can tell you that you are most definitely lying. Quit it.


Oct 19, 2018
Do you REALLY think that this physical process, based on the laws of magnetohydrodynamics, is going to stop for some reason after it has begun


I don't think that, you idiot. It is the proposal from Biermann in 1950. The biggest fields it can produce are ~ 10^-21 G, you idiot. The conditions for it require those of the turbulent protogalactic disk, you fool. Those conditions do not exist in the galaxy now. Understand? No you don't because you'd never heard of Biermann's findings until this article mentioned them, and you have not read either his paper, or the one above. You are making sh!t up. Stop it. You are not sufficiently cognisant of the relevant science to understand it.


Oct 19, 2018
How many different versions are there of the Lambda CDM Theory, couple dozen? Do they all agree on the same things happening, no, which is why the schisms.

How many different versions of crystallography were tried and discarded before realistic answers started showing up, and they are only getting better still. So far the predictions of higher magnetics is playing out, and where I was told many years ago that Galactic Scale Magnetic Fields are not big enough or strong enough to do anything...has been proven patently wrong in the subsequent years, so I stand very happy with these new articles coming out. I can see why YOU have a problem, but for me it is actually sweet vindication and I Have no problems with recent data, nor the old data, as the reprocessing of That reinforces my models as well.

Oct 19, 2018
and where I was told many years ago that Galactic Scale Magnetic Fields are not big enough or strong enough to do anything...has been proven patently wrong in the subsequent years,


Will you quit with the f***ing lying, you psycho? It has not been shown to be wrong, you lying oaf. Galactic fields are p!ss weak. ~ 0.1 - 1.0 nT, you idiot. That is doing sod all, is it?


Oct 19, 2018
You OBVIOUSLY did not read the paper I linked, And YES, I DID read it, and played with some of the math. DO read this paper, this whole paper, and not just the bit that WIKI popped you to:

jonesdave 2.3 / 5 (6) 5 hours ago
For anybody interested, there is a reasonably succinct description of the Biermann Battery effect, and the sort of fields it can produce, in Section 6.2.2 of this;

http://www.ita.un...beit.pdf

And that is the very PDF I read out and presented fact to you from, and now you dispute it? Boy, you have some SERIOUS reading comprehension problems.

Seriously, read that paper, the whole paper, that you just linked, WITHOUT your jaundiced eye that dismisses that which you dislike. YOU handed me this ammo to use, action gets reaction. I posted part of 6.1 of that paper, and it shows a spiral galaxy with field lines...Amazing hunh?

Your own petard, sir.


Oct 19, 2018
That reinforces my models as well.....


You haven't got any models! You are an unqualified loon, posting in a comments section! Where are these 'models'? Lol. Like I said, you are not an EUist, you are an independent loon, who disavows all their beliefs and dogma.

Oct 19, 2018
And that is the very PDF I read out and presented fact to you from, and now you dispute it? Boy, you have some SERIOUS reading comprehension problems.


And there is nothing in that pdf that disagrees with what I am saying. Show me. Quote it, and give the section number.


Oct 19, 2018
Gripe away JD, I pointed out the section 6.1 for you, just as a beginner, but I want you to sit down and read the WHOLE PAPER,

These are the last two lines of section 9.1.2:

"Many questions on primordial star formation remain unanswered. For example the
initial mass function is unclear. Furthermore, the effect of magnetic fields has often
been neglected."

Obviously this is a Mainstream Scientist making this statement in agreement with what I have been saying, I rest my case JD.

Oct 19, 2018
Gripe away JD, I pointed out the section 6.1 for you, just as a beginner, but I want you to sit down and read the WHOLE PAPER,

These are the last two lines of section 9.1.2:

"Many questions on primordial star formation remain unanswered. For example the
initial mass function is unclear. Furthermore, the effect of magnetic fields has often
been neglected."

I rest my case JD.


And of what frigging relevance is that to the crap you were talking about? That has nothing to do with the Biermann Battery effect! So, WTF are you talking about now? I don't think you have any idea about this subject, do you? You are not qualified in it, and don't understand it. Correct? Just another crank on a comments section.

Oct 19, 2018
And there is nothing in that pdf that disagrees with what I am saying. Show me. Quote it, and give the section number.


You take other people's words & rewrite them into your own, and that's why they never make any sense, you don't have the background in science discourse to come off credibly to anyone. It's the same technique as your downgraded claims to having an Astronomy Degree, when you downgraded that to Astronomy Based degree from the University of Auckland, NZ that offers no such curriculum & therefore no such degree in either course of scientific discipline.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough here?

Oct 19, 2018
I rest my case JD.


You don't have a case. You are not a scientist, just a fantasist on a comments section, spouting vague, science-free bollocks. Word salad, dear boy. Nobody is taking a blind bit of notice.

Oct 19, 2018
Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough here?


Hahahahaha! Irony, coming from the lying prick who claims to have studied nuclear engineering for 6 years, and understands jack sh!t about it. What is a half-life, you thick cretin? How embarrassing. Want me to quote your definition again, you lying poser? Get back to mopping the floors, you dumb oaf.

Oct 19, 2018
@rossim
which would fit neatly in the scientific method
yes!
but only if tightly constrained by the scientific method (like models)
no unicorns allowed... lol

.

@steel
being a Mainstream Scientists tends to mean that you are a follower
1- absolutely wrong in so many ways - and you're the one trying to spoon feed your beliefs

if there is evidence - present it and let it speak for itself

2- followers of eu *are* people who accept dogma presented by others - there are *no* eu scientists doing research, otherwise you would have been able to present to me source material supporting their tenets
Those that are 'cutting edge' are almost ALWAYS considered 'loons' or 'illogical'
all modern science is cutting edge: research even moreso
but I AM trying to educate you
actually, no

from my perspective, you're looking to turn others to your belief, otherwise, you would be math-ing the f*ck out of posts like jones, DS, A_P or others (with references/links)

Oct 19, 2018
Oh, but this is THE VERY PDF that you posted to show how much you knew about the Biermann Battery Effect! If you are going to own THAT part of the paper, then you had better own the REST of the paper as it is a direct statement of all those things that you say CANNOT BE.

Then when found it Really IS, you claim a different direction and try to pivot to saying 'I was saying that', when you had been saying exactly OPPOSITE of that. Like the Republicans presently saying they are the heroes saving Medicare and Medicaid...when they been working hard to kill them off for 40 years and McConnel was gloating recently about just that, But is also working to protect those with Previous Conditions...Yeah, right, like the rest of the ACA he has led over 60 votes to gut. And counting.

Sorry JD, your pivot dont work. You posted the paper, I referenced the relevant data out of it, now ye can sit there and just deal with it because it is beyond proof now. Dont expect reply, ignore is ON.

Oct 19, 2018
claims to having an Astronomy Degree, when you downgraded that to Astronomy Based degree from the University of Auckland, NZ


And quit with the lying, you f***ing D-K affected tosspot. Stick to cleaning floors, yes janitor boy? Uneducated piece of sh!t.


Oct 19, 2018
Oh, but this is THE VERY PDF that you posted to show how much you knew about the Biermann Battery Effect! If you are going to own THAT part of the paper, then you had better own the REST of the paper as it is a direct statement of all those things that you say CANNOT BE


Don't be such a f***ing cretin. We were specifically talking about the Biermann Battery, you thick swine. She gave a nice review of it that wasn't overly technical. The piece you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with that, and nothing whatsoever to do with any EU idiocy. They don't believe in star formation as she describes it you bloody clown. They think it is powered by some electric woo. It is their no. 1 central tenet. Christ you are thick.


Oct 19, 2018
Read the entire paper JD, and give me a book report on it in the morning or you can just figure that you are the fraud the majority of us know you to be.

If ONE Part of the paper is pertinent, the Rest of the paper is pertinent to the facts contained in it. If the rest of the paper is garbage, than the section you pointed to (obviously a google-to) is garbage as well.

As I went and read the entire paper, I found her conclusions refreshing, her method reasonably rigorous, and she admits to working on a small subset of energy factors that may have played a part in the deep past, but is quick to point out, and clear, that these very processes, including the MHD and Biermann effects of current and magnetic moment 'seeds' are still very much present and active in the present day universe, and her own words state that she feels that the magnetic fields often been neglected in people's models. So it is no wonder some are surprised at the fields strengths being found NOW.

Oct 19, 2018
If ONE Part of the paper is pertinent, the Rest of the paper is pertinent to the facts contained in it. If the rest of the paper is garbage, than the section you pointed to (obviously a google-to) is garbage as well.


And there is absolutely nothing in that PhD thesis that agrees with any EU woo, you idiot. Nothing. Nada. You simply have comprehension problems, don't you? Did you even do high school science? That thesis is totally mainstream, and you cannot point to any part of it that isn't.


Oct 19, 2018
So it is no wonder some are surprised at the fields strengths being found NOW.


And where did you predict these field strengths, poser? What are those field strengths? What do you think they are doing, you ignorant fool? No word salad, show us the maths. You have nothing, do you?

Oct 19, 2018
So, let's see what Ms. Schober has to say about magnetic fiels in primordial star formation;

It is all in section 9.4; http://www.ita.un...beit.pdf

Well, there could have been a magnetorotational instability. This requires the field to be frozen-in to the gas. That goes against EU dogma. No frozen-in allowed. And of course, she is describing a star that forms from gas and dust, and is powered by nuclear fusion. There goes another EU belief. No electric star forming currents mentioned.
Oh, and she's quoting MHD simulations to back up her conclusions. EU don't like MHD. Alfven denounced it. He didn't, but that is their belief.
And she has planets forming in the accretion disk. EU don't believe that. They fly out of the Sun, or some such woo.
So, yes, I rather like Ms. Schober's take on things - all very mainstream and very anti-EU woo. Good for her.

Oct 19, 2018
So, perhaps we can now ask the following questions;

When did EU wooistry morph into mainstream astrophysics?

If it didn't, then when did Steelwolf become a supporter of mainstream astrophysics, and kick the EU wooistry into touch? After all, he admits to believing very little of their nonsense.

'Tis all a little confusing. Here I was thinking EUists were terminal nutters, and it seems they may believe nothing that isn't pure mainstream.

Oct 19, 2018
@jonesdave
If it didn't, then when did Steelwolf become a supporter of mainstream astrophysics, and kick the EU wooistry into touch? After all, he admits to believing very little of their nonsense.

'Tis all a little confusing. Here I was thinking EUists were terminal nutters, and it seems they may believe nothing that isn't pure mainstream.
methinks you should view the end of this thread: https://phys.org/...ole.html

read the last ten or so comments

it may well explain a lot, @Jonesd

Oct 19, 2018
@jonesdave
If it didn't, then when did Steelwolf become a supporter of mainstream astrophysics, and kick the EU wooistry into touch? After all, he admits to believing very little of their nonsense.

'Tis all a little confusing. Here I was thinking EUists were terminal nutters, and it seems they may believe nothing that isn't pure mainstream.
methinks you should view the end of this thread: https://phys.org/...ole.html

read the last ten or so comments

it may well explain a lot, @Jonesd


Whoaaaa, sh!t, that is seriously deranged stuff! I think Mr. Steel will be very soon disowned by the EU wooists, if they haven't already! That stuff makes even their level of woo pale into insignificance! Lol.

Oct 19, 2018
If you are going to try to use that to dog me, your own Karma is going to find itself deeply squished Stump, I would recommend against it.

Just a kind word of advice Stump.

Soon enough you will find out a Great Number of Truths. I have died and chose to come back, at 6 yrs old, as I KNOW reincarnation, god, angels and the afterlife all exist.

Telepathy is a matter of sending information packets from the electrical processes and crystals grown in the normal human head, to another human, or animal, with similar frequencies or harmonics.

The Military uses 'Clairvoyants', or people who can see things without being physically present.

There is a lot of classified tech that will be coming out within the next 5 years or so that will radically change our world, give us unlimited energy and an extremely upgraded lifestyle for everybody. We would have been much farther towards this long ago had they not cut off Tesla in their quest for riches and power.

Dont believe me, fine.

Oct 19, 2018
@steel
your own Karma is going to find itself deeply squished Stump
using facts and your own words isn't going to affect my "karma" at all, especially given that I don't believe in karma, your deities or beliefs
I would recommend against it.
recommendation noted
Just a kind word of advice Stump
why thank you

let me offer you some in return:
there are medications you can take to help, and psychotherapy may be helpful as well

I recommend the latter definitely, but the former may well help you address some things that you're unwilling to see or deal with at this moment in time

If there is a problem with funds, you can always crowdfund it and link it here - I'll even share it in various social media sites for you to get exposure

if you don't want to do that, then perhaps you can write some of your experiences down and sell the stories

Oct 19, 2018
I am sure that you will get the treatment you deeply need Stump, and the rest of the deeply ignorant state people.

I WILL feel sorry for you until then.

Actually, Stump, one of the abiding points of this whole thing was to tell the story, far and wide, and let people believe or not as they will, but I cannot, and will not, go charging for giving such basic human information that should be taught to all, freely.

You can play your stupid games of belittling people to try to build yourself up, but remember, it only makes you look lower and lower as you heap insult on those undeserving of it, and all the world takes notice, and the energy They send You will be as That YOU send out in the first place. As you sow, so shall you reap, and if all you sow is bitter weeds, plants of thorns and harmful shoots, then your harvest, come the winter of the soul, will be bitter indeed.

I pity you.

Oct 20, 2018
@steel
I WILL feel sorry for you until then
don't
I'm so happy I could sh*t donuts
You can play your stupid games of belittling people to try to build yourself up
I am not belittling you - I was every bit as sincere as you were
so if you see it as belittling, I suggest you look inward
and the energy They send You will be as That YOU send out in the first place
awesome! I have a few new solar panels I should put up this weekend, then!
As you sow, so shall you reap
yeah, I know
kinda hard to grow corn if you sow peas
I pity you
don't

apparently, I am far, far happier than you, and I have an incredible life that I've lived and continue to live

I will whisper your pain to the Wakinyan and FSM so that you may receive their blessings

Oct 20, 2018
The EUdiots can't figure out Biermann's Battery. The Wikipedia article is all math and they don't do math. That's one of the EUdiot Commandments: no math.

Oct 20, 2018
A one and no reply. This isn't science, it's politics. Go away.

Oct 20, 2018
The Birkeland current is what carries the energy created by the emf of the plasma traversing magnetic fields

Oct 20, 2018
And there is nothing in that pdf that disagrees with what I am saying. Show me. Quote it, and give the section number.

You take other people's words & rewrite them into your own, and that's why they never make any sense, you don't have the background in science discourse to come off credibly to anyone.
...
Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough here?


Pot, kettle, black?

Weird how this is exactly what you do.
You even take quotes from Einstein and reinterpret them to fake-substantiate some irrational claim of yours, illustrating your misunderstanding of the very quote you used.

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough here?

It almost seems you have, since it appears you have started using two sock puppets to vote up your comments. You must be getting desperate.
Hello there "Muttering Mike" and "Arthur McBride".

Oct 20, 2018
The Birkeland current is what carries the energy created by the emf of the plasma traversing magnetic fields


Nope, you just made that up.

Oct 20, 2018
A permanent magnet has nothing attached to it, no power, no circuit. You can't assume there is an electric current driving a magnetic field based on this simple object. The current would be internal and atomic,not something macroscopically seen and subject to Ohms law.

Oct 20, 2018
Nope, you just made that up.

Nope, Alfvén "made it up".

Oct 20, 2018
A permanent magnet....

And that has relevance because...? The discussion is of plasma, not reefer magnets. Regardless, the spin and orbit of the electrons is analogous to the circuit and electric current on the atomic scale.

Oct 20, 2018
The Birkeland current is what carries the energy created by the emf of the plasma traversing magnetic fields


Nope, you just made that up.


Wrong. Alfven never proposed intergalactic Birkeland currents. That is pure woo.

Oct 20, 2018
The Birkeland current is what carries the energy created by the emf of the plasma traversing magnetic fields


Look at the construction of a toroid we make, it is loops of current conducting wire wrapped around a ring of iron core (usually), the magnetic field is solely contained within that core & there would be no currents inside that core.

So how would you propose the Birkeland currents flow in the artist's rendering of the torus at the top of the page? Somehow the current must flow along the outer surface of the toroid completing a circuit path back to the source without breaking.

Oct 20, 2018
And that has relevance because...? (the permanent magnet)

Because materials exist in this universe that are magnetic and have NO EXTERNAL CURRENT.

Oct 20, 2018
Alfven never proposed intergalactic Birkeland currents.

Yes he did, section 1.5;
http://plasmauniv...erse.pdf

Oct 20, 2018
So how would you propose the Birkeland currents flow in the artist's rendering of the torus at the top of the page?

The simulation in the paper essentially shows a segment of two parallel interacting Birkeland currents.

Oct 20, 2018
"Yes he did, section 1.5;
http://plasmauniv...erse.pdf "

Backflow of knowledge? Knowledge expansion? Ugh...

Oct 20, 2018
Alfven never proposed intergalactic Birkeland currents.

Yes he did, section 1.5;
http://plasmauniv...erse.pdf


C'mon here cd, Copy & Paste the part of your link stating where your point begins.

No one here wants to spend an hour reading through a lengthy treatise just to find a single paragraph that makes your point. Many of us have busier things to do like fixing our own solenoids as I just did on my garden tractor as I sit here with cruddy greasy fingers trying to figure how this one in outer space is supposed to work.

Oct 20, 2018
Seems for Birkeland currents one requires a magnetosphere. The pictures in the Wikipedia article make it pretty clear.

Somebody's got a jargon generator.

Just sayin'.

Oct 20, 2018
I am sure that you will get the treatment you deeply need Stump, and the rest of the deeply ignorant state people.

I WILL feel sorry for you until then.

Actually, Stump,(*)

You can play your stupid games of belittling people to try to build yourself up, but remember, it only makes you look lower and lower as you heap insult on those undeserving of it, and all the world takes notice, and the energy They send You will be as That YOU send out in the first place. As you sow, so shall you reap, and if all you sow is bitter weeds, plants of thorns and harmful shoots, then your harvest, come the winter of the soul, will be bitter indeed.

I pity you.
says Steelwolf

Don't waste your pity or attempt to reform El Stumpo. He made his choices long ago and will shortly have to pay the piper, so to speak. We know where he is and what he does and says, at all times. The old Chickenshit is free to do as he pleases - for now. But the time is coming soon for full retribution.

Oct 20, 2018
Here, look for yourselves: https://en.wikipe..._current

The second image shows the currents emerging from the magnetic poles of the magnetized sphere in Birkeland's terella: https://en.wikipe..._current#/media/File:Birkeland-anode-globe-fig259.jpg

I don't see any black holes, accretion disk toruses of debris, or evidence for a Biermann battery there. Bierman batteries require a rotating plasma.

Maybe you forgot.

Oct 20, 2018
Never a mention of voltage. Voltage a required entity in any valid analysis of electrical events in sheaths of highly conductive (but still resistive) plasma. Cantdrive's magical current with no mention of a voltage. Voltages that would have to be billions of trillions of volts to power Suns.

Oct 20, 2018
Never a mention of voltage. On further reading... Ohm's law is not simply valid in a plasma, only one of five components in "Generalized Ohm's Law".

Okay I'm outta here. Space is not a circuit I'm familiar with. :)

Oct 20, 2018
Never a mention of voltage. Voltage a required entity in any valid analysis of electrical events in sheaths of highly conductive (but still resistive) plasma. Cantdrive's magical current with no mention of a voltage. Voltages that would have to be billions of trillions of volts to power Suns.


.....point on, I've been thinking the same thing when I think of the unbroken pathway an electron must follow through it's initial voltage rise all the way to it's drop.

Oct 20, 2018
Alfven never proposed intergalactic Birkeland currents.

Yes he did, section 1.5;
http://plasmauniv...erse.pdf


No he didn't. He suggested currents ***within*** intergalactic space. That is not Scott or Perrat's gigaparsec currents lunacy. Learn comprehension. And that paper is long since outdated and ignored. 9 citations in 31 years. And he was wrong about double radio galaxies, and his matter anti-matter universe nonsense. And trying to explain the 3 K background radiation by currents was also a fail.

Oct 20, 2018
Just out of curiosity, had we discovered cosmic voids or galaxy superclusters in 1987? I know cosmic voids had not been discovered; I think superclusters were still being theorized but the evidence was equivocal then. @Jonesy is right; Alfven didn't even know about them. His vision is "intergalactic;" this implies currents at the inter-galaxy level, not anything higher. And his evidence for them is also equivocal.

Oct 20, 2018
@DS,
The back history to some of the above is that one Anthony Peratt, a former student of Alfven, iirc, did some lab plasma experiments. To cut a long story short, what showed up looked superficially like a spiral galaxy. It should have been left there, but Peratt published a scarcely seen nor cited paper in an irrelevant journal (IEEE). He posited Gpc long currents powering galaxies, which explained rotation curves. He never figured out how these currents were moving stars around, and predicted sychrotron radiation from the currents. This was in ~ 1986. Subsequent all-sky maps that would have seen this radiation didn't, and he essentially dumped it 2 decades ago, in favour of hunting for petroglyphs showing ancient plasma woo.
Don Scott, a retired EE and EU fritloop tried to resurrect it recently in a crank journal. He failed miserably, by stuffing up the maths, among other things. It is all pure woo.

Oct 20, 2018
Never a mention of voltage. On further reading... Ohm's law is not simply valid in a plasma, only one of five components in "Generalized Ohm's Law".

Okay I'm outta here. Space is not a circuit I'm familiar with. :)


Yeah, it's been beat almost to death here by novices such as EVERYONE here who has been commenting on an issue that has only recently come into bigger view. Maybe someday we'll figure out how circuits in the sky really work with toroidal doughnuts, just not now until we have better instrumentation that can measure magnetic fields far beyond our solar system.

Oct 20, 2018
A Birkeland current is a set of currents that flow along geomagnetic field lines connecting the Earth's magnetosphere to the Earth's high latitude ionosphere. In the Earth's magnetosphere, the currents are driven by the solar wind and interplanetary magnetic field and by bulk motions of plasma through the magnetosphere (convection indirectly driven by the interplanetary environment). The strength of the Birkeland currents changes with activity in the magnetosphere (e.g. during substorms). Small scale variations in the upward current sheets (downward flowing electrons) accelerate magnetospheric electrons which, when they reach the upper atmosphere, create the Auroras Borealis and Australi
https://en.wikipe..._current

Oct 20, 2018
In the 1700s Anders Celsius and assistant Olof Hjorter knew of these currants of the plasma

The currents were predicted in 1908 by Norwegian explorer and physicist Kristian Birkeland, who undertook expeditions north of the Arctic Circle to study the aurora. He rediscovered, using simple magnetic field measurement instruments, that when the aurora appeared the needles of magnetometers changed direction, confirming the findings of Anders Celsius and assistant Olof Hjorter more than a century before. This could only imply that currents were flowing in the atmosphere above
These currants are as old as time its self were known in the 1700s
So are in reality are not Birkeland currants as they are equally Olof Hjorter currants
https://en.wikipe..._current

Oct 20, 2018
Olof Hjorter (1696-1750)

Hjorter began his studies at Uppsala university in 1713, and was an astronomy student of professor Per Elvius.
In 1732 Hjorter was employed by Count Axel Oxenstierna, a keen amateur astronomer, and was encouraged and supported by him to continue at Uppsala university. After his studies in the Netherlands he now had a solid education in astronomy and mathematics
https://www.astro...ter.html

Oct 20, 2018
@Jonesy, thanks, man.

Oct 20, 2018
And there we have a brief insight to plasmatic currents occupying the vacuum

So as we are not to become stick in the mud's, these currents are part of Natures Starry Plasmatic Theme as part of the mechanics in solar plasmatic fusion as Kristian Birkeland is a diversionary tactic used by guil of mind to obfuscation the fact nature has been using these currants for 15billion years and is continueing to use them as they are part of the Natures Starry Plasmatic Solar Fusion in fact no onwship of anyone called Kristian Birkeland as he is in name only

So now may that JD & CD can utilise their knowledge and work out how nature is utilising these currents in natures starry solar plasmatic fusion occupying the vacuum

Oct 20, 2018
@jonesdave.
@DS,
He [Anthony Peratt, a former student of Alfven, iirc] never figured out how these currents were moving stars around, and predicted sychrotron radiation from the currents. This was in ~ 1986. Subsequent all-sky maps that would have seen this radiation didn't,..
This prompted my recall of your past argument (against large scale currents in space as claimed by @cantdrive et al) to the effect that, "IF those currents existed, THEN our instruments/telescopes would have observed 'synchrotron radiation'...but we don't". Now a study (link below) says:
The research found that radio and X-ray brightness of the large-scale radio structure is decreasing moving out of the core, and the X-ray spectrum of the jet is compatible with synchrotron emissions.
So perhaps we already had seen such before, but 'glossed over' it due to built-in modeling/interpreting biases?

https://phys.org/...-ic.html

Oct 20, 2018
So perhaps we already had seen such before, but 'glossed over' it due to built-in modeling/interpreting biases?


Nope. These were all-sky maps. If they were there, they'd be seen. Ask a scientist. Take the nearest galaxies; what would you expect to come leaping out of the data at you? Guess what they didn't see? And what biases? None of these people would have heard of a non-event paper in an irrelevant journal. They see what they see.

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/2009/06/scott-rebuttal-ii-peratt-galaxy-model.html


Oct 20, 2018
@jonesdave.
So perhaps we already had seen such [synchrotron radiation] before, but 'glossed over' it due to built-in modeling/interpreting biases?
Nope. These were all-sky maps. If they were there, they'd be seen. Ask a scientist. Take the nearest galaxies; what would you expect to come leaping out of the data at you?...
Just like all the other range of frequencies (gama-rays, X-rays, visible-light, Infra-red and microwave/radio) which form the multi-spectrum cosmic radiation background, the X-rays come in more than just one 'tight' frequency/wavelength. So unless we/instruments had been specifically looking for the tell-tale 'synchrotron' frequencies in exclusion of all others, the greater overall background 'wash' of X-ray radiation, from our galaxy and from intergalactic space, would be 'swamping' any synchrotron 'signal' UNLESS our instruments are tuned to 'specifically recognize' it. How long have we had telescopes/instruments capable of discerning it? :)

Oct 20, 2018
^^^^^Can't you read?

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/2009/06/scott-rebuttal-ii-peratt-galaxy-model.html

Copy/ paste the link, as it isn't clickable for some reason.

Oct 20, 2018
@jonesdave.
^^^^^Can't you read?

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/2009/06/scott-rebuttal-ii-peratt-galaxy-model.html

Copy/ paste the link, as it isn't clickable for some reason.
I'm still having problems with my customized system which I have been modifying further and cannot make secure connections with (all too) many sites at present. Would you kindly post here excerpt(s) from your link that you feel answers my above questions, mate? Thanks. :)

Oct 20, 2018
@jonesdave.
^^^^^Can't you read?

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/2009/06/scott-rebuttal-ii-peratt-galaxy-model.html

Copy/ paste the link, as it isn't clickable for some reason.
I'm still having problems with my customized system which I have been modifying further and cannot make secure connections with (all too) many sites at present. Would you kindly post here excerpt(s) from your link that you feel answers my above questions, mate? Thanks. :)


Nope, far too long. Try this link, and read the articles on the page;

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/search?q=synchrotron

Oct 20, 2018
Lost in Birkland currants

Oct 20, 2018
Lost in Birkland currants
.........drowning in'em.

Oct 20, 2018
@jonesdave.
^^^^^Can't you read?

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/2009/06/scott-rebuttal-ii-peratt-galaxy-model.html

Copy/ paste the link, as it isn't clickable for some reason.
I'm still having problems with my customized system which I have been modifying further and cannot make secure connections with (all too) many sites at present. Would you kindly post here excerpt(s) from your link that you feel answers my above questions, mate? Thanks. :)


Nope, far too long. Try this link, and read the articles on the page;

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/search?q=synchrotron
It's that whole site which my system cannot establish a secure connection to; so still can't access what you're referencing, jonesy. I'll leave it at that for the time being; at least until I next go into town; and can use the library's computers to access that site. Thanks anyway for your trouble, mate! Much appreciated. Good luck. :)

Oct 20, 2018
Lost in Birkland currants

And RealityCheck, what is this persistent BT optic fibre Infinity you're having this persistent infinity problem with, not only are numbers still in the dark ages, they appear to inhabit some technology dark ages as well

Oct 20, 2018
In The Shires

Well RC, I won't dream of birkland currents.
Only currants, juicy and tasty in crumbly cakey mixture with lashings of thick creamy English butter of the Shires RC.

Oct 20, 2018
In The Shires

Well RC, I won't dream of birkland currents.
Only currants, juicy and tasty in crumbly cakey mixture with lashings of thick creamy English butter of the Shires RC.


My wife makes blueberry crumble cakes, we slather them with creamed whipped butter as soon as they come out of the oven. Four kids & a dog park themselves around the oven just waiting for the those little round cakes to come out, and poof, faster than a neutron star can collapse into a BH an oven full are gone in minutes.

Oct 20, 2018
Birkeland currents are any field aligned current, no magnetosphere required but they do occur in magnetospheres. As a matter of fact the Birkeland current flowing through a body such as Earth likely created said magnetic field. The Earth is an electromagnet, the Birkeland current powers it.

And Bridgeman is a hack, not worth bothering with. You're gonna get more out of a Garfield cartoon than anything Bridgeman has uttered.

Oct 20, 2018
No he didn't. He suggested currents ***within*** intergalactic space. That is not Scott or Perrat's gigaparsec currents lunacy. Learn comprehension.

Alfvén predicted the filametary and cellular morphology of the Universe way back in the thirties, due to these currents at the largest scales. There is a reason Peratt suggested them, Alfvén predicted then long ago.
And trying to explain the 3 K background radiation by currents was also a fail.

It is a prediction of the model.
http://plasmauniv...ratt.pdf

Oct 20, 2018
These were all-sky maps. If they were there, they'd be seen. Ask a scientist. Take the nearest galaxies; what would you expect to come leaping out of the data at you?

It has been shown numerous times Verschuur's explanation of the problems with your assumptions, as usual you continue to ignore and obfuscate.
Peratt published a scarcely seen nor cited paper in an irrelevant journal (IEEE). He posited Gpc long currents powering galaxies, which explained rotation curves. He never figured out how these currents were moving stars around, and predicted sychrotron radiation from the currents.

It was published in an "irrelevant" journal because the plasma physicists associated with that journal understand plasma physics, unlike the plasma ignoramus journals.
And additional evidence of the currents are found all the time, see recent discovery of cosmic hydrogen which pervades the Universe. Already explained how that H is evidence of synchrotron radiation.

Oct 20, 2018
Never a mention of voltage. On further reading... Ohm's law is not simply valid in a plasma, only one of five components in "Generalized Ohm's Law".

Okay I'm outta here. Space is not a circuit I'm familiar with. :)

Well I guess since you you can't comprehend it from your position of ignorance it must be impossible.
Cantdrive's magical current with no mention of a voltage. Voltages that would have to be billions of trillions of volts to power Suns.

Take this paper here, you can't get past the first sentence of the introduction without reading about voltage. Your willful ignorance is on par with jonesdumb.
And you clearly don't understand the volume of space, the voltage requirement of the Sun is approx. 500kV.

Oct 20, 2018
" the voltage requirement of the Sun is approx. 500kV."

What does that even mean? Voltage requirement?

Cantdrive: Circuit analysis of a plasma is way more complex then you could ever handle. Ohm's law is still a factor, just not the only factor in a conductive plasma. And you think there can be a circuit in our solar system, still proves you don't know chit about EE, that hasn't changed.

Oct 20, 2018
P.S. If it's an insulator then it's not a plasma.

Oct 21, 2018
^^^^^Can't you read?

https://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/2009/06/scott-rebuttal-ii-peratt-galaxy-model.html

Copy/ paste the link, as it isn't clickable for some reason.

I think it's too long for physorg's parser. CnP is the way to go. And watch out: the parser also injects a link to this article at the end.

Oct 21, 2018
P.S. If it's an insulator then it's not a plasma.

Read some papers on Plasma Cosmology, Alfvén, Carlqvist, Peratt, Falthammar, et al. Most of your objections are misinterpretation and ignorant assumptions.

Oct 21, 2018
Reading a paper on Plasma Cosmology will not make plasma become an insulator.

Just sayin'.

Oct 21, 2018
@Old_C_Code
@cantdrive85.

Since your discussion has turned to the issue of how a 'voltage' can arise, I am reminded of a study which @jonesdave quoted from (a couple months ago?), which stated there was a potential difference (of 300 to 1000? volts) between solar corona and 1AU. That tells me that voltages can and do arise across vast space distances due to plasma content/activity therein. Good luck with your discussion. :)

Oct 21, 2018
The Moon in Double layer (plasma physics)

A double layer is a structure in plasma consisting of two parallel layers of opposite electrical charge. The sheets of charge, which are not necessarily planar, produce localised excursions of electric potential, resulting in a relatively strong electric field between the layers and weaker but more extensive compensating fields outside

The Moon, prediction of a lunar double layer was confirmed in 2003.In the shadows, the Moon charges negatively in the interplanetary medium.
https://en.wikipe...physics)

Oct 21, 2018
The Moon in Double layer

So what is this intriguing lunar double layer in the shadows?
Is it the lunar regolith charging oppositely between sunlit and shadow or is it regolith in oppositely charged to the passing solar wind, because, if so, what is this regolith in the shadows relevance?

Oct 21, 2018
Lunar Currents in the Shadows

Currents in the shadows
In lunar double layer
Static regolith in charge
Is either sunlit, shadow of solar ion
So being ion is in plasma
Is lunar layer in the shadows

Oct 21, 2018
.
And additional evidence of the currents are found all the time, see recent discovery of cosmic hydrogen which pervades the Universe. Already explained how that H is evidence of synchrotron radiation.


Total crap. How the hell is H a signature of synchrotron emission? You cannot be that thick! Actually, yes, you could be. As proven. And why hasn't Peratt written this? Why did he give up on his woo 20 years ago, coincidentally as the all-sky maps that proved him wrong were being published? How is any of his or Scott's error ridden crap explaining stellar galactic orbits? It is rubbish, and rightly ignored. Only dicks like you still think it is valid. Based purely on faith.

Oct 21, 2018

And Bridgeman is a hack, not worth bothering with. You're gonna get more out of a Garfield cartoon than anything Bridgeman has uttered.


Nope, Bridgman is another real scientist who has shown EU crap up for what it is.You don't have any real scientists, do you woo boy? Which is why you have to attack the person, rather than the message. You are thick, and nobody at EU is anywhere near the level of the likes of Bridgman.


Oct 21, 2018
Lunacy in the Shadows

Of all the verbiage in response to Birkeland currents in double layer
We have, in lunacy of cycle, a variation to descriptive
As lunar lunacy of double layers in the shadows

Oct 21, 2018
As though it never Happened

And JD, the problem though separate, is by virtue of peerage of quality instigation, that's resulted in of August 14, 2012 to this present day, when in only hours previous was a goodly change though tenuous in its application, there is out of this period maelstrom, a change has taken place, depending on its evolution, we can, after all our frustration, sit back and watch it happen as though all that peerage of quality instigation never happened!

Oct 21, 2018
And as if to prove the point JD, upon August 14, 2012, is evoloution taking place as we speak!

Oct 21, 2018
RealityCheck says: "That tells me that voltages can and do arise across vast space distances due to plasma content/activity therein"

That voltage is in a vacuum (close enough), no material required. Still way too low for any normal circuit analysis. AC would be easily detected, DC power would required 30,000 volts per cm to get an electric arc to travel. But this would fry Earth. A intermediate current that wouldn't arc and still provide power would require a solid or a liquid to conduct the electricity. Our inner solar system is not filled with conductive plasma. If it was, no space communications would be possible, being shorted out by plasma.

If there was any evidence of energy going into the Sun powering it, I'd be all for it. But there's none.

Oct 21, 2018
That voltage is in a vacuum (close enough), no material required. Still way too low for any normal circuit analysis.


"Huge numbers of double layers carrying electric fields parallel to the local magnetic field line have been observed on the Van Allen probes in connection with in situ relativistic electron acceleration in the Earth's outer radiation belt. For one case with adequate high time resolution data, 7000 double layers were observed in an interval of 1 min to produce a 230,000 V net parallel potential drop crossing the spacecraft. Lower resolution data show that this event lasted for 6 min and that more than 1,000,000 volts of net parallel potential crossed the spacecraft during this time."
https://www.ncbi....24476280

This was measured in the Van Allen belts, most certainly a plasma and 1,000,000 volts measured.

Oct 21, 2018
Regarding those double layers, they must be described as part of a circuit;

"As the rate of energy release in a double layer with voltage DeltaV is P corresponding to IDeltaV, a double layer must be treated part of a circuit which delivers the current I. As neither double layer nor circuit can be derived from magnetofluid models of a plasma, such models are useless for treating energy transfer by means of double layers. They must be replaced by particle models and circuit theory. A simple circuit is suggested which is applied to the energizing of auroroal particles, to solar flares, and to intergalactic double radio sources. Application to the heliospheric current systems leads to the prediction of two double layers on the sun's axis which may give radiations detectable from earth.

DL's measured, and they are a circuit feature. The DL is a plasma sheath which "insulates" one plasma region from another. Ignorance can blind if you are unwilling to open ones eyes.

Oct 21, 2018
Oops, here is paper for prior quote;
'Double Layers and Circuits in Astrophysics'
https://inis.iaea...18060222

Oct 21, 2018
@Old_C, it's dangerous (as you've noted before) to try to equate the E and B fields from plasmas with those in conductors. But the basic rules still hold; there are just some extra rules to add. One of Alfven's realizations was that when you are working with plasma, you not only have to deal with classical Ohm's Law, you also have to deal with the flow of the plasma. And that's very much more complicated because that flow is also a current, but not in the same sense as an electrical current. The copper in wires, after all, doesn't move around. And this introduces more than just the obvious changing E and B fields relative to the destination; it also introduces, for example, cyclotron effects. All of these give the general Ohm's Law, which is therefore considerably different from the classical static Ohm's Law we all learned as EEs.

Oct 21, 2018
Van Allen probes
electric fields parallel to the local magnetic field line observed on the Van Allen probes with in situ relativistic electron acceleration in the Earth's outer radiation belt. 7000 double layers observed in interval of 1 min to produce a 230,000 V parallel potential drop crossing the spacecraft. Lower resolution show for 6 min and that more than 1,000,000 volts of net parallel potential crossed the spacecraft during this time."
https://www.ncbi....24476280
Van Allen belts, 1,000,000 volts measured.

Now this sounds interesting CD.

The outer belt is made up of billions of high-energy particles that originate from the Sun and become trapped in Earth's magnetic field, an area known as the magnetosphere. The inner belt results from interactions of cosmic rays with Earth's atmosphere. Satellites that unwittingly or intentionally venture into the belts can be damaged by the radiation

https://www.nasa....n-probes

Oct 21, 2018
Oh, and to bring this back to the subject of this thread, Biermann's battery is one of those other field rules from the generalized Ohm's Law that has to be included. The EUdiots generally ignore it because they can't do the scary integral calculus, never mind the scary vectors. Anyone who thinks Maxwell's equations are simple or deal only with electron flow hasn't absorbed their meaning.

Oct 21, 2018
The EUdiots generally ignore it because they can't do the scary integral calculus, never mind the scary vectors. Anyone who thinks Maxwell's equations are simple or deal only with electron flow hasn't absorbed their meaning.

These are EE concepts which are being suggested as relevant to astrophysical phenomena, it is the plasma ignoramuses that resist this suggestion. Contrary to da schnied's obfuscation.

Oct 21, 2018
Maxwell's equations are not EE concepts, @cantthink69. They're physics and all of the laws of plasma physics must obey them.

You're lying again, @cantthink69.

Oct 21, 2018
"Maxwell's equations are a set of partial differential equations that, together with the Lorentz force law, form the foundation of classical electromagnetism, classical optics, and electric circuits."

Oct 21, 2018
They're physics and all of the laws of plasma physics must obey them.

Not necessarily true, as Alfvén pointed out in his Nobel lecture that the electron distribution is often non-Maxwellian.

"The first one was the hundred years old investigations in what was called electrical discharges in
gases. This approach was to a high degree experimental and phenomenological, and only very slowly reached some degree of theoretical sophistication. Most theoretical physicists looked down on this field, which was complicated and awkward. The plasma exhibited striations and double-layers, the electron
distribution was non-Maxwellian, there were all sorts of oscillations and instabilities. In short, it was a field which was not at all suited for mathematically elegant theories."

da schnied still doesn't understand.

Oct 21, 2018
@eu pseudoscience cult acolyte cd

These are EE concepts

"Maxwell's equations are
at this point, considering your arguments against most MS science, it is obvious you didn't even read the rest of that wiki article you quoted, verbatim, let alone the references.

quick question:
you actually believe in them even though "the equations provide a mathematical model"???

I thought you didn't believe in math models or extrapolations thereof?


Oct 21, 2018
@cantthink69 doesn't know enough physics to understand that the equations of motion are not Maxwellian, but the motions of charge are. In other words, it quotes Alfven but doesn't understand what he was saying.

You're lying again, @cantthink69.

Oct 21, 2018
The problem EUists have with DLs, is they tend to want to see them everywhere. Alfven had a bit of a thing for them, and suggested that 'exploding' DLs were producing the signatures which were being tentatively assigned to magnetic reconnection in his day. Further work in the lab, and a shed load of in-situ evidence shows it is indeed, MR. Even the few remaining critics of MR, such as the ageing Heikkila & Akasofu, accept that it happens, and are not calling on exploding DLs. I read a paper a few years ago that suggested the importance of DLs in astrophysics was somewhat overplayed, and that, although they happen in the magnetosphere, it is unlikely that they would be stable enough for long enough to be of huge importance overall.
From memory, F.S. Mozer was one of the first to describe their detection in the magnetosphere. They are really nothing much to do with reconnection.
The 'go to' guy on DLs is Michael Raadu, for anybody interested.

Oct 21, 2018
The problem EUists have with DLs, is they tend to want to see them everywhere. Alfven had a bit of a thing for them, and suggested that 'exploding' DLs were producing the signatures which were being tentatively assigned to magnetic reconnection in his day.

And everywhere in situ measurements have had the resolution to measure them, they have been present. The fact is the plasma ignoramuses insist that plasma is different from laboratory and in situ measured plasmas.

Oct 21, 2018
Alfvén called it the pseudo-plasma, and the plasma ignoramuses still believe in it and still model it as such. It's a hypothetical plasma based on "elegant maths theories" and theoreticians who have never seen a laboratory plasma.

Oct 21, 2018
The problem EUists have with DLs, is they tend to want to see them everywhere. Alfven had a bit of a thing for them, and suggested that 'exploding' DLs were producing the signatures which were being tentatively assigned to magnetic reconnection in his day.

And everywhere in situ measurements have had the resolution to measure them, they have been present. The fact is the plasma ignoramuses insist that plasma is different from laboratory and in situ measured plasmas.


No, that is just a baseless assertion. They have been measured in the magnetosphere, and nowhere else (except in the lab). And they are not associated with reconnection. The problem is that lab plasmas are essentially ideal. They are created and controlled by input from humans. Astrophysical plasmas are not like that. There are shocks and turbulence, etc. They are not being ignored, but neither are they proposed in situations where it is shown that they do not, and cannot be expected, to occur.

Oct 21, 2018
Alfvén called it the pseudo-plasma, and the plasma ignoramuses still believe in it and still model it as such. It's a hypothetical plasma based on "elegant maths theories" and theoreticians who have never seen a laboratory plasma.


Oh sod off with this ancient, idiotic dogma! Who gives a toss what Alfven said in the middle of the last century? He has been long since surpassed by better experiment, better theory and better in-situ measurement. What he got right has been kept, and he is recognised for it. That is all. He is not God. Neither was Einstein. Kept his good stuff, dumped the rest.

Oct 21, 2018
Hell, even Alfven's closest collaborator, Falthammar, saw the way the evidence was going, and dumped a lot of his dogma re MR and exploding DLs. He was ~ a generation younger than Alfven. And now he is a generation or two out of date himself. Times change. Only an idiot would keep clinging to an idea about exploding DLs, when all the evidence says it is MR. That is just idiotic. And has more to do with doctrine than science.

Oct 21, 2018
Alfvén called it the pseudo-plasma, and the plasma ignoramuses still believe in it and still model it as such. It's a hypothetical plasma based on "elegant maths theories" and theoreticians who have never seen a laboratory plasma.


Which is bollocks, of course. Alfven died 23 years ago. His last meaningful contribution to PP was some decades before that. He gave up on it. One of the nutjobs who wants to try to screw up maths, and deny MR and promote all sorts of other nonsense in tribute to Alfven, is Don Scott. Who is not, nor ever has been, a PP. One of the people I have linked on here, saying that Scott is clueless is a real PP, who did his PhD on strong astrophysical DLs, at Alfven's Stockholm lab. And he didn't do it on a computer! You have built a strawman based on your ignorance of modern PP, and try to burn it down. The reason you are ignorant of modern PP, is that none of your cult have studied it. Have they? So, why should we listen to these clowns?

Oct 22, 2018
Bridgeman was a hack Marxist and a suicide, So you are a born again bible thumping Creationist eh Jonsie, I would have never figured you to be THAT stupid. No wonder you defend the Big Bang and Dark Matter, there HAS to be something to Prove GOD did it and that the Devil has a Place, Oh Lord, now you labeled yourself a crazier crank than I ever dreamt of. No wonder god is always part of your rants, Oh My.

You better stop while ahead Jonsie, ye might follow yer hero there.

Oct 22, 2018
You're really one sick puppy, aren't you?

Oct 22, 2018
Bridgeman was a hack Marxist and a suicide,


WTF are you on about, loony tunes? Go take your medication.

Oct 22, 2018
You're really one sick puppy, aren't you?


Schneibo, you're the one who has yet to grow up, talk about puppies...........just one foul mouthed name calling rant after another from you, and to top it off you congratulate the other jonesies for their's.

Your computer science education totally fails you when you can believe that INFINITE DENSITY can exist at the core of a finite stellar mass called a BH, there's no science behind such a concept which is why your Pop-Cosmology buds have yet to show us a picture of such an object. Yeah, infinite density at the exact point of zero gravity puppy boy, so how does that work?

Oct 22, 2018
I said;
The fact is the plasma ignoramuses insist that plasma is different from laboratory and in situ measured plasmas.

Which was acknowledged by jonesdumb;
Astrophysical plasmas are not like that. There are shocks and turbulence, etc.

I guess, by jonesdumb's own admission, the magnetosphere is not an astrophysical plasma because it actually has double layers. BTW jonesdumb, "shocks" are in fact double layers however the plasma ignoramuses avoid the electrical properties of plasmas in their fluid modeling.
jonesdumb also glosses over the fact the ACE measured the "flux ropes" eminating from the Sun, even the plasma ignoramuses acknowledged them to have DL's.

Oct 22, 2018
proselytize

convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

ignoble

not honorable in character or purpose.

Oct 22, 2018
jonesdumb also glosses over the fact the ACE measured the "flux ropes" eminating from the Sun,even the plasma ignoramuses acknowledged them to have DL's.


Sorry, who is dumb? I'm not the one that believes Earth used to orbit Saturn, or that Venus came hurtling out of Jupiter, et laughable cetera!
And just link to the ACE paper, yes? I was talking about the DLs as envisaged by Alfven, in particular exploding DLs to explain MR, etc.
And shocks are not DLs. There is any number of mechanisms to form shocks and turbulence in plasmas.
Your problem is that your cult contains nobody with a clue about plasma physics, let alone DLs in particular. It is all rote learned from ancient Alfven texts. Mostly out of context and/ or out of date. It is the very definition of a cult or quasi-religion. Whatever it is, it isn't science.


Oct 22, 2018
proselytize....
Blah, blah, blah

Followed by jonesdumb;
I'm not the one that believes Earth used to orbit Saturn, or that Venus came hurtling out of Jupiter

Proselytize indeed.

Oct 22, 2018

Followed by jonesdumb;
I'm not the one that believes Earth used to orbit Saturn, or that Venus came hurtling out of Jupiter

Proselytize indeed.


Are you saying that you don't believe in two of the central tenets of EU, as proposed by its founders Thornhill & Talbott?

Oct 22, 2018
I was talking about the DLs as envisaged by Alfven, in particular exploding DLs to explain MR, etc.

A double layer is a double layer is a double layer (although there are several type of double layers).

Oct 22, 2018
A double layer is a double layer is a double layer (although there are several type of double layers).


And.............................? I know; the chap at ISF did his PhD on them. He would know a hell of a lot more about them than you do. They aren't magic. The final paragraph of the Wikipedia entry sums it up pretty well;

https://en.wikipe...physics)


Oct 22, 2018
Are you saying that you don't believe in two of the central tenets of EU, as proposed by its founders Thornhill & Talbott?

It's not about belief and given the evidence I do see it as a possibility. That doesn't mean I "believe" it. I am certainly more apt to lean towards PC, although it seems as if the facts lie somewhere between the two.

Oct 22, 2018
It's not about belief and given the evidence I do see it as a possibility.


A possibility in which universe? Certainly not according to the laws of physics in this one!

Oct 22, 2018
The final paragraph of the Wikipedia entry sums it up pretty well;

You mean this?

"Unlike experiments in the laboratory, the concept of such double layers in the magnetosphere, and any role in creating the aurora, suffers from there so far being no identified steady source of energy."

The Sun is your "steady source of energy", a flow of electric current flows from the almost continuously. The presence of the double layers is indicative of this. You know, the same way you infer a BH must exist. I-N-F-E-R-E-N-C-E...

Oct 22, 2018
A possibility in which universe? Certainly not according to the laws of physics in this one!

Certainly not your pseudoscientific universe where only gravity operates on such scales, but in our Universe where plasma and EM effects dominate.

Oct 22, 2018
a flow of electric current flows from the almost continuously.


From the Sun? Lol. No.

Certainly not your pseudoscientific universe where only gravity operates on such scales, but in our Universe where plasma and EM effects dominate.


Really? And where is this written up? Specifically how EM woo alters the orbits of planets, or affects the orbits of stars? Pure woo, and nothing more than faith based nonsense.


Oct 22, 2018
From the Sun? Lol. No.

So the Sun isn't a source of energy? Ions and electrons are not electric? So how do the observed DL's get the energy required to create them? Magic as you claim then...

Oct 22, 2018
So the Sun isn't a source of energy? Ions and electrons are not electric?


That is not what you said; "a flow of electric CURRENT", is what you said. Which is obviously nonsense.

Oct 22, 2018
Bridgeman was a hack Marxist and a suicide, So you are a born again bible thumping Creationist eh Jonsie, I would have never figured you to be THAT stupid. No wonder you defend the Big Bang and Dark Matter, there HAS to be something to Prove GOD did it and that the Devil has a Place, Oh Lord, now you labeled yourself a crazier crank than I ever dreamt of. No wonder god is always part of your rants, Oh My.

You better stop while ahead Jonsie, ye might follow yer hero there.


Wow, you are pretty much an idiot. Ignore for you dumdum.

Oct 22, 2018
If the Solar and geomagnetic fields were not so important, nor relevant to modern science, then why do they have continuously updated running data streams like this:

https://iswa.gsfc...etId=261

Really, the folks at SDO and the like know a lot more of this stuff, particle index shows amount of particles per cc running between 5 to around 70 in this last couple days, mostly in the 10 to 14 range, as far as plasma particles as measured by proton and electron densities.

I Do actually keep up with really up to date data, and dont rely on some outdated models when others, in the papers even JD posted here for us, a few times, that stated plainly in sec 9.1.2 that the author felt that the effects of electromagnetism were being under-modeled and gave proofs for her statement thereafter.

And newer papers stating Surprise of Astronomers at stronger fields, which has been long posited by PC/EU.

Oct 22, 2018


If the Solar and geomagnetic fields were not so important, nor relevant to modern science, then why do they have continuously updated running data streams like this:]


What has this to do with EU idiocy?

I Do actually keep up with really up to date data, and dont rely on some outdated models when others, in the papers even JD posted here for us, a few times, that stated plainly in sec 9.1.2 that the author felt that the effects of electromagnetism were being under-modeled and gave proofs for her statement thereafter.


No, there is absolutely nothing EU/PC in that paper. It is pure mainstream science, and goes against many EU /PC claims.

And newer papers stating Surprise of Astronomers at stronger fields, which has been long posited by PC/EU.


Really? Where did they write this up? And what field strengths did they predict? Based on which data? Links, please.


Oct 22, 2018
@Steel
And newer papers stating Surprise of Astronomers at stronger fields
articles, not papers
Usually, you don't see statements of emotional anything in a scientific paper. that is typically reserved for colourful articles written by english, communication or journalism majors, etc
which has been long posited by PC/EU
and again: no, it hasn't

just because the occasional person who is a believer makes a claim doesn't mean that pc/eu has posited anything, especially given that:
1- there is no central hypothesis
2- there is no model that makes predictions
3- there is no science tightly constrained by the scientific method

moreover, by definition and specific selection of terminology, the name itself implies selective bias concerning electric or plasma terms

if either was science, you would have been able to point me to a hypothesis or theory spelt out in a journal which made predictions, etc

Oct 22, 2018
If you watch the above site then you can see a very wonderful disconnect due to a solar wind plasma density wave from a CME impacting along the Earth and Mars magnetic connection lines, and disrupted them rather extensively, as seen in the Circular, and the opening of the magnetic field and reconnection with a snap is seen in the straight line view of how the Earth's magnetic field and the plasma field lines reacted.

This run is from over the past two days, as the data stream runs, so it will be there for a few hours to view yourself, an excellent example of the effect the article here actually talks about.

It certainly shook up and flexed the Solar magnetic connection lines very heavily between Earth and Mars. Certainly no fantasy, and the CME seemed to gain a boost from Earth and flow towards Mars, which is close in orbit at this time, but it was a major pulse Towards Mars along IT's mag-lines of connection. As plainly seen, IF you look and can read the charts.

Oct 22, 2018
^^^^And which part of that is anything but mainstream science???????

Oct 22, 2018
Stump, you keep denying the very air in front of your face when you talk like that, really, do you think everyone is as ignorant as that when they can easily google and come up with a WIDE variety of answers, some valid, some debunked. But it is still an expanding field of study as more and more instruments show us magnetic fields in places YOU folks have said they cannot be, and at field strengths YOU folks say is Impossible.

So dont go trying to sell me your broken DM model that has never ever found a single particle, while MS Science has filled the void that DM was supposed to hold.

Guess What, it is electromagnetic in origins as we had not taken into consideration the idea of large charges being ABLE to be formed in 'space' where there is NOTHING enough to connect to, when all evidence says that is false: we have 1300 Watts/M^2 on Earth, just with sunlight add E and P flux from the solar wind as well, in a flux from the sun, EM carried by Photons as it's carrier force.

Oct 22, 2018
You keep saying that This exact mechanism cannot work JD, that is why it is relevant, yes, it is MS Science, and that is the point, MS is HAVING to take EM effects into greater and greater consideration as they find them to be a lot more ubiquitous then thought, anywhere you have plasma and turbulence, you have current, and DL's, it is a function of vorticies and how they interact with the surrounding medium in the turbulence column, and it creates one Heck of a charge that costs Billions of dollars a year in satellite costs because they Did Not Know this before.

Gaining the data has been expensive for them,yet it keeps showing that previous researchers that much has been based on, were in error due to not using high enough field strength in models and so not being able to understand the physics going on. They are getting a handle on it, and the handle seems to be magnetic plasma is more interactive than gravity at certain scales of space and time.

Oct 22, 2018
Stump, you keep denying the very air in front of your face when you talk like that, really, do you think everyone is as ignorant as that when they can easily google and come up with a WIDE variety of answers, some valid, some debunked. But it is still an expanding field of study as more and more instruments show us magnetic fields in places YOU folks have said they cannot be, and at field strengths YOU folks say is Impossible.


Complete bullsh!t. Pure EU lies and obfuscation, gleaned from selective reading of press releases. All word salad, no science. That should be the motto of EU!


Oct 22, 2018
........because they Did Not Know this before.


Crap. It hasd little to no effect on anything that the p!ss weak intergalactic field strength lower bound is a bit higher than previously estimated. And no major models are getting torn apart. And EU predicted none of it.


Oct 22, 2018
@steel
do you think everyone is as ignorant as that when they can easily google and come up with a WIDE variety of answers
this is one of the biggest problems you have: not all sources are equal
Just because you can google it doesn't mean it's science

as proof, I offer the following: https://www.googl...IAs5iQv4

So dont go trying to sell me your broken DM model
I have no such model
I simply follow the evidence
Guess What, it is electromagnetic in origins
well, you obviously know what I am going to ask next, right?

Links/references?
you keep denying the very air in front of your face when you talk like that
unlike you, I am perfectly content to wait for the evidence and its validation

Oct 22, 2018
and the handle seems to be magnetic plasma is more interactive than gravity at certain scales of space and time.


And what the hell is that supposed to mean? EM forces are irrelevant at the scales being talked about, and that hasn't changed.


Oct 22, 2018
As has been explained on this site many, many times, there is no antigravity, but there is antielectricity. Gravity comes in only one flavor, attractive, but EM comes in two flavors, positive and negative. As a result, over long distance scales (and by long I mean astronomical units, not light years) electric charges cancel out but gravity does not. This is simply because there is nothing to cancel gravity.

Different forces work in different ways. That's why they have different equations. And different physical effects.

Oct 22, 2018
And one more thing: the energy from the Sun (and pretty much all other stars) is overwhelmingly photons, which are uncharged. There is no significant "current" coming from the Sun; a mixture of charges that's electrically neutral on the scale of astronomical units or less is not a "current" on the scale of the Solar System.

Oct 22, 2018
Oh and in case anyone hasn't noticed, the EUdiots are YECs; Young Earth Creationists. That's why they have all these fairy tales about Earth coming from Saturn and Venus coming from Jupiter and the planets careening around the Solar System. Not sure where they think fossils come from but since they're not consistent about anything else I guess it's not surprising since they make stuff up just like the drunken stone age sheep herders made up the Babble about the super magic daddy in the sky.

Oct 22, 2018
What do you mean "Photons are not charged"? How can they be the force carrier and Not induct the charge that does occur when photons run into something. Electrons absorb them (at whatever harmonic frequency they are on) before it is excited enough to decide to let loose paired photons and drop back in energy level.

Photons may as well be liquid electricity, if you will even consider such cosmological logic, they are the particular field carrier for the electromagnetic force, they create magnetic conditions along their paths that can be read out by our machines today in the phase of polarism and spin shift in the photon's magnetic moment...which is how they are getting a lot of this information about other glalaxy's magnetic fields, and those about SMBH's and their active brother the Quasar with very long, magnetically charged and active, jets of plasma and mass at near lightspeed.

Nope, no electricity there, nothing to see, move along folks, LOL Wake Up!

Oct 22, 2018
The solar wind is inherently 'charged' at all scales. If it is in plasma environment, and/or has photons moving through the area, then it Will be electrically charged and will have a magnetic field, no mater how 'weak' it may seem, it appears to be the near equal to gravity, with being able to Pull a jet of material away from an overdensity against the extreme pull of the gravity well.

At least, that is what they are telling us they see. And you say No Electricity, Mo Magnetic Fields of that size or strength, and I show you, repeatedly, to not have your facts straight, and then you obfuscate, and play bait-and-switch with strawmen just like stump, and lose the respect of normal readers.

Maybe I am crazy, but I play straight up and honest, not dirty like your gang of bots, naughts and sock puppets spouting drivel or backup, with bot points already.

People ARE Allowed to Speculate, Many times we are right, and are allowed to say so. Very sorry your side lost this game.

Oct 22, 2018
Photons have no charge. This is well-known and long-settled physics. You can prove it for yourself in a desktop lab experiment for under US$100. This was done in the nineteenth century.

Photons carry phase, and phase determines the action of EM. This is obvious from the Maxwell equations.

Oct 22, 2018
At least, that is what they are telling us they see. And you say No Electricity, Mo Magnetic Fields of that size or strength, and I show you, repeatedly, to not have your facts straight, and then you obfuscate, and play bait-and-switch with strawmen just like stump, and lose the respect of normal readers.


Oh bugger off, you uneducated loon. I have asked you countless times - what strength of field, and what do you want it to do? Where has it been written up? It hasn't. Stop making sh!t up. You have nothing other than unscientific word salad.


Oct 22, 2018
all these fairy tales about Earth coming from Saturn and Venus coming from Jupiter and the planets careening around the Solar System
.......and yours about stellar masses having infinite density at their cores where zero gravity exists, or subjecting photons to the laws of kinetic energy as your throwback 19th century science lesson responses for explaining how gravity works with no regard for the immutable Inverse Square Law.

Hey, schneibo, how about you explain to us how infinite density is real? I'll bet you didn't know it, but we're still waiting to see pictures of a star that has infinite density at it's core.....maybe you've seen one?


Oct 22, 2018
Another thing worth keeping in mind is that magnetism is a fictitious force. In reality, magnetism is the relativistic correction to the electric force; that is, it is caused by the speed-of-light delay in the electric force. But it's possible to make equations assuming the electric force is instantaneous and magnetism is a separate force, and this is much more convenient mathematically. This is why the Maxwell equations show separate E and B fields: for convenience.

Oct 22, 2018
no mater how 'weak' it may seem, it appears to be the near equal to gravity,


Complete lies. On the scales we are talking about it is doing nothing in comparison to gravity. You are just too stupid to understand that.

Oct 22, 2018
I should have said "the Heaviside formulation." The original Maxwell equations do not have this bias.

Oct 22, 2018
all these fairy tales about Earth coming from Saturn and Venus coming from Jupiter and the planets careening around the Solar System
.......and yours about stellar masses having infinite density at their cores where zero gravity exists, or subjecting photons to the laws of kinetic energy as your throwback 19th century science lesson responses for explaining how gravity works with no regard for the immutable Inverse Square Law.

Hey, schneibo, how about you explain to us how infinite density is real? I'll bet you didn't know it, but we're still waiting to see pictures of a star that has infinite density at it's core.....maybe you've seen one?



Aaaaannnnnddd another scientifically illiterate loon! Why don't you go ask your questions on a physics forum, coward? There is one attached to this site. Too scared of getting your arse kicked, aren't you mop boy?

Oct 22, 2018
@Lenni_The_Liar strikes again.
and yours about stellar masses having infinite density at their cores
Please show where I ever said anything about stars having infinite density at their cores. Or admit (whether tacitly or not) that you're lying again, @Lenni_The_Liar.

Oct 22, 2018
I could use @Benni_The_Bullsh!tter, but since it never uses my proper handle I return the discourtesy.

This is the only person on this forum who lies more than @100LiarRC.

Oct 22, 2018