Late to the party, German carmakers join race against Tesla

September 23, 2018 by Yann Schreiber
German carmakers are going after Tesla

After years watching Tesla's electric cars speed ahead while they have been on the defensive over an industry-wide diesel emissions scandal, German high-end manufacturers have finally unveiled their first challengers to the Californian upstart.

Mercedes-Benz maker Daimler, BMW and Volkswagen's Audi and Porsche subsidiaries between them control some 80 percent of the worldwide premium car market.

But until recently they offered little battery-powered, zero-emission competition to Tesla and its bombastic Elon Musk.

That changed this month, with all three groups unveiling their first all-electric SUVs slated for release over the next two years.

Audi rolled out its "E-Tron", BMW its "iNext" and Mercedes its "EQC", while Porsche presented an electric coupe, the "Mission E".

In total, German carmakers have vowed a total of almost 40 billion euros ($46.7 billion) of investment in battery-powered vehicles in the coming three years, industry association VDA says.

With a market share of around eight percent in Germany—compared with Tesla's 0.1 percent—Audi hopes electric cars will account for around one in three sales by 2025.

"Finally, it's getting started!" auto industry expert Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer told AFP.

Time is pressing, as sales of engines powered by automakers' longtime growth driver diesel have plummeted in the face of plans by many large cities to ban them to bring down air pollution.

The government wants to see a million e-cars on German roads within four years
Wild ride for Tesla

The entrance of the three German behemoths into the electric race is far more consequential for Tesla than smaller fish like Britain's Jaguar, whose "I-PACE" is already on sale in the UK.

And the US tech firm faces major hurdles of its own, struggling to stem losses that have been going on for years while trying to reassure investors and customers of its chief executive's mental health.

Musk was filmed drinking whisky and smoking cannabis (which is legal in California) with radio host Joe Rogan earlier this month, and in August revealed he was suffering from intense stress and fatigue in an interview with the New York Times.

On Tuesday, Tesla confirmed that the US Department of Justice was investigating the company over Musk's tweet announcing a plan to remove its shares from the stock market.

Also on Twitter, the South African entrepreneur admitted Tuesday that after months spent overcoming "production hell" on the firm's mass-market Model 3, it was now in "delivery logistics hell" struggling to get cars to buyers—while promising "rapid progress".

For expert Dudenhoeffer, "Tesla is the market leader and has great strength in innovation, but the coming six to nine months will be a decisive test" for its chief executive.

"If he doesn't manage to stabilise the Model 3 and make the firm profitable, it will get very complicated for him, including with regard to his investors."

Battery technology is a major challenge for players in the electric car market
Battery gamble

The German government hopes to see one million fully electric and hybrid vehicles on the road by 2022, up from fewer than 100,000 at the start of this year.

But the spread of the technology is constrained by a number of factors, including a limited range of models for sale, slow expansion of charging infrastructure and limited capacity for building new batteries.

A government commission on electric mobility recently found Germany would need to increase the number of charging points available more than five-fold to serve a million drivers.

And while they are perfecting electric motors and other electric-drive components, German carmakers have so far balked at direct investment in costly battery production, aware that they would have to catch up on a head start enjoyed by Asian industry leaders and unwilling to gamble on an adventure in the unfamiliar territory of cell chemistry.

European Commissioner Maros Sefcovic said recently that the EU should be open to state aid for a long-hoped-for "Airbus of batteries", while business daily Handelsblatt reported the German economy ministry is cobbling together a consortium of companies and research institutes.

For now the most conspicuous progress comes from China's CATL.

The challenger for global battery leadership against the alliance of Japanese Panasonic and Tesla announced in July a mammoth new factory in central Germany to supply European customers.

Explore further: Electric car makers moving into Tesla's turf with new models

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Mark Thomas
4.7 / 5 (12) Sep 23, 2018
Tesla and its bombastic chief executive Elon Musk.


Yann, either you don't know what the word "bombastic" means or you are just plain wrong. Your whole article demonstrates Tesla is driving serious (and positive) disruption in the automotive industry. Only a fool would deny that. Tesla and it's CEO set high goals, but Musk is not bombastic. Don't forget plenty of vested interests love to smear Musk and hope Tesla fails so they can keep selling their global warming-inducing products.
Mark Thomas
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 23, 2018
Late to the party, German carmakers join race against Tesla


In addition to being late to the party, the Mercedes EQC copied too many design elements from the Ford Edge.

https://en.m.wiki...ord_Edge
gkam
4.3 / 5 (11) Sep 23, 2018
The world is playing catch-up with Musk. And California.
Eikka
2 / 5 (8) Sep 23, 2018
you don't know what the word "bombastic" means or you are just plain wrong


Seems pretty accurate to me:

marked by or given to speech or writing that is given exaggerated importance by artificial or empty means


but Musk is not bombastic


Musk has consistently promised twice what he actually delivers, and runs all over his schedules even on what he does deliver.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (7) Sep 23, 2018
I don't really get why they always have to be positioning themselves against another company. All this talk about 'Tesla killers' seems nonsensical.
The only incentive to 'kill' Tesla would be for companies that want to end the EV market alltogether and go back to selling fossil fuel cars.

The demand for EVs is there - and enough of it for all car manufacturers to make a buck (it's essentially the same volume as it was for ICE cars). So just build affordable and good quality cars. Given that EVs are much simpler to build than ICE cars that shouldn't be a problem.
gkam
4.2 / 5 (10) Sep 23, 2018
"Musk has consistently promised twice what he actually delivers, and runs all over his schedules even on what he does deliver."

And have you seen those shoes he wears? Honestly!

Meanwhile, my 2013 Model S has never needed maintenance, . . . or gas, . . or oil, . . . or tuneups, . . .
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Sep 23, 2018
I don't really get why they always have to be positioning themselves against another company. All this talk about 'Tesla killers' seems nonsensical.
The only incentive to 'kill' Tesla would be for companies that want to end the EV market alltogether and go back to selling fossil fuel cars
Yeah it's called competition. Capitalism is based on it. And no I wouldn't expect eurodisney trotskyites to understand it.
h20dr
3 / 5 (4) Sep 23, 2018
'For now the most conspicuous progress comes from China's CATL.
The challenger for global battery leadership against the alliance of Japanese Panasonic and Tesla announced in July a mammoth new factory in central Germany to supply European customers.'

First Germany sold out to Russia on the Nordstream pipeline and now to China on battery technology. Kinda wierd being that their supposed to be aligned with NATO and here they are whoring out themselves to our mutual enemies while we subsidize their military for their no borders social experiment. Makes sense...
gkam
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 23, 2018
All of this is great. More competition means better products, usually.

Musk already changed the automobile world, which was his goal.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (4) Sep 23, 2018
Musk has consistently promised twice what he actually delivers, and runs all over his schedules even on what he does deliver.


The fact that Musk has often over-promised, perhaps to help drive his people harder, does not seem "bombastic" to me. This is not "marked by or given to speech or writing that is given exaggerated importance by artificial or empty means." Every CEO who misses a financial target is not bombastic.
Shakescene21
5 / 5 (4) Sep 23, 2018
Musk has delivered on most of the things he promised, but he usually delivered later than he predicted. He promises dramatically new things, which often involve unexpected problems. Most CEOs promise smaller incremental improvements, so it's much easier for them to deliver on their safe low-ball forecasts.

Musk has recently delivered on two risky promises: Last year he delivered on the Australian mega-battery ahead of the 100-day deadline, and it immediately rescued the electricity supplier from a power plant failure. And this June Musk delivered on his forecast that Tesla could produce 5,000 Model 3 cars in a week before July 1.
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (5) Sep 23, 2018
Musk is a person who can take bold action, and accomplish bold things. Some frightened timid people find that sort of person somehow intimidating and threatening. As another bold action taker (although you've never read my name before, so not at all anywhere near Musk's level) I admire him.

The Mission requires many more successful EV makers. Tesla cannot be "killed" and Tesla's Mission needs a lot of successful competition. How many EV's need to be produced monthly to reach a 50% market penetration in the next 5 years? These German companies are late getting started, and had better really pick up the pace. Tesla cannot do this alone.

I pick up my Tesla model 3 on Friday. I cannot wait.
KBK
5 / 5 (1) Sep 23, 2018
Importantly, Elon did NOT smoke weed on Rogan's show.

Elon did not inhale. He inhaled the smoke into his mouth, but did not inhale said smoke into his lungs. He exhaled all of it from his mouth. No actual inhalation.

See the actual video.....

Importantly, Tesla is working on going beyond it's current 5000 model 3's a week. As it is stable at -and moving beyond- this production of 5k model 3's a week.

But that's not news it seems, as only doom sells, right?
KBK
not rated yet Sep 23, 2018
Importantly, the production rate, even if it is below the 5000 a week number but still quite high, this is a profit thing.

As the model 3 Tesla is probably one of the highest profit margin cars around. Tesla PROFIT per car vs cost, is apparently at over 20k per vehicle.

That's 70 million in profit, per week.

And it is happening---right now. Revenue is in 'the moment' of eclipsing costs.

At 3500 cars per week, that's about 1 billion in profit, per quarter.

When it hits a solid 5000 units a week, that's 1.5 billion in profits over costs, per quarter. Just on the model 3.

The the other two models, the X and the S... are still being produced at the same time, with their own concurrent high profit per unit levels..

So Tesla is now, right now... sliding into the undeniable high profit viability mode.

Tesla is, as of this time.. doing ~just fine~ and will not need any cash injection of any kind.
KBK
5 / 5 (1) Sep 23, 2018
The other part is that no one but Tesla has the ability to crank out batteries for these cars.

NO ONE else has enough battery supply for the so called models being produced by these other companies.

The gigafactory is the only one in the world that can supply what is needed and this is a Tesla factory. For Tesla.

What are those other companies, like Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW going to do?

No batteries, no cars. Tesla has the only viable supply point.

They are years behind here, in a fundamentally important and impossible to avoid supply side bottleneck and gauntlet....that they have not even begun to build or conquer.

They are years away. Years.

Even if some miracle cure new battery tech comes along, and is viable on the production side, right now...they will STILL be 2-3 years away from being able to ramp up to the level of a forced wet fart --- in production numbers of finished and sold electric cars.

Tesla has the upper hand, in all possible ways.
conprehensible
1.8 / 5 (5) Sep 23, 2018
Drinking Whisky and smoking weed? The main problem with that interview is that he was wearing an OCCUPY T-shirt, and OCCUPY is an anti-wall-street slogan. He didn't consume any weed, rather like spitting out wine without swallowing any, he tested the cigar and puffed it out in a media stunt by josh rogan, looking as if he had never touched a joint before, and then, he gestured to the beverage, that it was more his preferred choice.
conprehensible
1 / 5 (2) Sep 23, 2018
Kinda wierd being that their supposed to be aligned with NATO and here they are whoring out themselves to our mutual enemies while we subsidize their military.

NATO has become a whore itself, since bush was allowed to threaten Russia with border missile installations, and with the highly agressive stance of it's leaders, the UK And USA towards russia with hillary and cameron. Is germany subsidizing the russian and chinese military? paying china as an empoverished military ally? I would have to read about that.
For battery technology, they simply have to license a licensed, patented, good battery company, which can get around 230Wh/Kg. Obviously no european companies seem to have researched and supplied that kind of battery, so we can't upscale one from here.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (4) Sep 23, 2018
I pick up my Tesla model 3 on Friday. I cannot wait.


Zzzzzzzz, that is fantastic! What version did you configure? My delivery timeframe is Sept.-Nov., but I have not been contacted to schedule delivery yet. I held out for the AWD version which was only $4K when I ordered it (now $6K). I just got a Nema 14-50 outlet installed in the garage to be ready. 30 miles of range added per hour is huge versus 3-5 miles per hour for typical 110 volt outlets.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (6) Sep 23, 2018
The main problem with that interview is that he was wearing an OCCUPY T-shirt


Look closer, it says OCCUPY MARS.

https://shop.spac...rts.html
Parsec
5 / 5 (6) Sep 23, 2018
Tesla may or may not succeed as a car company. But it will certainly always be remembered as the main engine behind the real commercialization of widespread electric car production and distribution.
arcmetal
5 / 5 (5) Sep 23, 2018
The appropriately named company has done what no other car or oil company has been able to accomplish: move us back to a better technology from the late 1800's. ... Poor choices in technology are usually cast aside, even if they take a hundred years, or more.
Thorium Boy
1 / 5 (6) Sep 24, 2018
Musk is a venal nutjob who'll be deposed from Tesla shortly. Tesla's sales were cut by 25% when taxpayer financed subsidies were pulled. BMW will crush them.
Eikka
1 / 5 (6) Sep 24, 2018
Last year he delivered on the Australian mega-battery ahead of the 100-day deadline


A goal he himself set. What actually happened is, Tesla got a whole bunch of people cancel their orders on the Model S in wait of the Model 3 and he got a surplus of batteries, so he dumped them in the megabattery and called it a challenge.

And this June Musk delivered on his forecast that Tesla could produce 5,000 Model 3 cars in a week before July 1.


By banging them together by hand in a tent outside of the actual factory.

the model 3 Tesla is probably one of the highest profit margin cars around


By Tesla picking and choosing to deliver only the more expensive "options included" models. They're refusing to actually sell the $35k base model and keeping people who ordered hanging, and actually calling them and trying to upsell them a more expensive model.

Tesla did that with the cheapest Model S as well, because it couldn't turn a profit.
Eikka
1 / 5 (6) Sep 24, 2018
Musk has delivered on most of the things he promised


When you tell investors and the government you're going to make a $50k car that goes 300 miles on a charge, and you turn up with a car that costs $100k and goes 263 miles, that's not delivering "most of the things".

The same thing happened with the Model X, and the Model 3.

That's like getting an architect to draw you a house, and when the builders come by and you get a first look of the actual drawings, it's twice as expensive and lacks the second bedroom. That's not delivering, that's swindling.
Gigel
5 / 5 (4) Sep 24, 2018
Musk is a venal nutjob who'll be deposed from Tesla shortly. Tesla's sales were cut by 25% when taxpayer financed subsidies were pulled. BMW will crush them.

A tiger can crush a cheetah any time. It just has to catch the little speeder.
NoStrings
5 / 5 (3) Sep 24, 2018
German automakers were claiming that they produce electric cars in 2 years for the last 6 years. Now the excuse is - the diesel problem they created distracted them. Ya,ya.

I am not holding against Yann Schreiber having inborn sympathy for German car manufacturers. Yet his wording on Tesla is certainly too dismissive and offensive, and likely deliberately so. And singing excuses why German manufacturers are late to the party - hey, they are working so hard and thorough to make best products, right? Wrong, they were trying to bury the electric car idea as much as possible, and lost.
Since when Phys.org runs blatant commercial endorsements?
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Sep 24, 2018
We saw the same scenario with apple and IBM. The big companies began making PCs after steve jobs demonstrated a wide enough market.

And the duality was preserved in case a critical flaw was found in either. And there was - PCs were susceptible to viruses. The military often develops differing versions in parallel for the same reason re F22 tigershark.

Will there be a similar division in the tesla product and the large auto makers? There certainly is in their space ships.
Eikka
1 / 5 (1) Sep 24, 2018
And there was - PCs were susceptible to viruses.


There were tons and tons of mac viruses until they switched to a UNIX based operating system from the abomination that was MacOS.

Reason being that MacOS wasn't a modern pre-emptive multitasking operating system - once you gave a process the permission to run, it didn't necessarily have to give the CPU back to the OS, so a virus could do anything it wanted with the system - no anti-virus or anything could block it once the code was loaded and executed. It also meant that any application could completely crash your machine for the tiniest of reasons.

That's why the Mac desktop is still built with the top bar that changes according to the program, rather than each program having its own menu bar: it was originally designed to run only one user application at a time and not swtich between them, so the whole desktop was supposed to be "the app", and any windows on the screen were documents within that app.
Eikka
not rated yet Sep 24, 2018
The big companies began making PCs after steve jobs demonstrated a wide enough market.


There had been personal computers before, like the Olivetti Programma 101 (1965) so the idea was already ten years old and the market was ripe for new products by the time Jobs got in on it.

https://royal.pin...om-1965/

1974 saw the Altair 8800, 1976 saw the Apple I, then 1977 Commodore PET, TRS-80, Apple II... all within months of each other. They had been years in development and just waiting for the component prices to go down to make a personal computer economically feasible. (The Olivetti had cost $20k in today's money at launch) It wasn't Steve Jobs who kicked off the market - the starting gun had been fired years ago and he was merely among the first runners.
Eikka
1 / 5 (1) Sep 24, 2018
In the same sense, Elon Musk isn't a forerunner and innovator of electric cars. People have been trying to make them for more than 100 years, with each iteration being marginally more successful than the last. Everyone's been held back by the sorry state of battery technology, but now, just like with the development of the personal computers, the cost and performance of the components is finally beginning to reach the threshold for a viable consumer product.

But it's a long arduous road, because battery technology doesn't have the same sort of self-amplifying property as computer technology, where improvements in IT lead to rapid advances in manufacturing technology, which lead to rapid advances in IT.

Eikka
2.3 / 5 (3) Sep 24, 2018
Besides, PCs were immediately better than what they replaced the moment they came on the market. A $20k machine would replace a room full of people poking at slide rules all day long so it was not a question of cost, but about how badly you needed to compute something - whereas an electric car is merely approaching the affordability and utility of a conventional car. The only real advantage you get for paying twice the money for an EV is the smugness of having it.
JoeReal
5 / 5 (2) Sep 24, 2018
At last the Germans has joined the Electric Vehicle manufacturing industry! Which is great news for the planet. Their vision is still misguided, however. They're focused on killing Tesla, which only has 0.1% share of the German market. They should focus on killing the Internal Combustion Engine Manufacturers which has 99% share of the current market! They can do this by advertising the tremendous advantages of the electric cars over the internal combustion engines (ICE)! The sooner they kill the ICE, the better it is for everyone in the planet, except maybe the oil tycoons and other atmospheric polluters. Killing Tesla doesn't help at all. The Germans should reach out to their loyal fan base and convince them to go electric and such a market is at least a thousand times bigger than the share of Tesla.
gkam
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 24, 2018
Our 2013 Model S is still perfect, with no maintenance at all yet. It costs 4 cents/mile to drive if I pay for the power. Six years with no oil changes, no emissions checks, no trips to the gas station, no noise, no stink, no toxics.

The other car manufacturers waited because it was not their idea, and they were wedded to old 20th Century concepts.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (4) Sep 24, 2018
Reason being that MacOS wasn't a modern pre-emptive multitasking operating system


Eikka, you should stick with your apparent strengths like software.

In the same sense, Elon Musk isn't a forerunner and innovator of electric cars.


Wrong, see what I mean? if the answer were so obvious, how come everybody else is still trying to play catch-up? Musk has even told us for years what his plans were, but nobody thought he would actually be able to make them happen because building cars based on batteries developed for laptops is hard to process for some people. Musk saw laptop batteries for what they really are, an enabler. It all only looks easy to you in hindsight.

BTW, Musk is still doing it today. He keeps telling us about the BFR and his plans to take people to Mars. Ten years from now or so when SpaceX achieves it, you would want to write, "In the same sense, Elon Musk isn't a forerunner and innovator of rockets," and you would be just as wrong.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (5) Sep 24, 2018
Musk has consistently promised twice what he actually delivers,

If you look at what he promises then he only overpromises on the timeline. What he actually delivers (when he does) *exceeds* his promises every single time.

Tesla is (as fars as I know) the only auto company that undersells the specs of their cars.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (5) Sep 24, 2018
The only real advantage you get for paying twice the money for an EV is the smugness of having it.


I will let you in a little secret Eikka, the hundreds of thousands of people buying Tesla EVs are not idiots. For one thing, this will be the most expensive vehicle many of us will ever buy. But consider the vastly reduced cost of driving and maintenance plus increased resale value and performance. These vehicles can be a very good deal. Drive a Tesla in place of an ICE vehicle long enough, and the savings alone essentially make it free.

On top of all that, Tesla should add this to their list of vehicle features:

Immense satisfaction from helping to force desperately needed positive change in the face of potentially devastating global warming - Standard Feature on all Tesla Vehicles.
ab6pn
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 24, 2018
Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagon, and Porsche are all entering the luxury electric car competition. There is no way in hell that Tesla will be able to compete against five giants of the automotive world. Tesla is TOAST.
gkam
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 24, 2018
They are all followers, aren't they?
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Sep 24, 2018
Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagon, and Porsche are all entering the luxury electric car competition. There is no way in hell that Tesla will be able to compete against five giants of the automotive world. Tesla is TOAST.

With all their offerings that will come out 2019 (at the earliest) and having specs lower than the ones Tesla has (and has had for 5 years)...i'm not sure how that will 'toast' - or even slightly worry - Tesla.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (3) Sep 24, 2018
There is no way in hell that Tesla will be able to compete against five giants of the automotive world.


Probably true if we were talking ICE vehicles, but we are talking electric vehicles. The biggest difficulty is making high-performance batteries in huge quantities, not ICEs. Tesla has the Gigafactory, what do your five have? Maybe we should be shorting the stocks of your five giants.
Gigel
4 / 5 (4) Sep 24, 2018
That's like competing 5 large medieval states against modern South Korea. That'd be interesting. :P
rrwillsj
5 / 5 (1) Sep 24, 2018
I'd say Elon Musk is comparing himself to Steve Jobs, not Henry Ford. For all the iphone "killers", Guess which fruit symbolizes success by Market Share value?
Old_C_Code
2 / 5 (4) Sep 24, 2018
"Drinking Whisky and smoking weed?"

Right, Musk didn't even INHALE the pot!!! He's a nerdy dork, no worries about his fake partying!
Dug
1 / 5 (3) Sep 24, 2018
People over think Tesla and Musk. The first practical electric vehicles were on the road before ICE vehicles in 1884. They remained the dominant mechanically powered vehicle until 1927 when the advent of the electric starter made ICE vehicles the dominant preference - which it still is. Today EVs barely eek out 2% of the global light vehicle market. Tesla produces almost half or - 1% of the total car market. Half of that in Cal. As quoted above - EVs are just getting started - again.

EVs still aren't economically competitive or we would see a lot more of global market share. Most folks don't care what's under the hood - they want functionality, dependability and the economical transportation. When EVs can provide that there won't be a need for debate - it will simply happen.

What is clear to me is that Musk misjudged the petroleum market - mistimed TSLA too early - as oil prices dropped in half in 2015 and the world once again became awash in cheap oil. Not good, but fact.
KBK
5 / 5 (3) Sep 25, 2018
Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagon, and Porsche are all entering the luxury electric car competition. There is no way in hell that Tesla will be able to compete against five giants of the automotive world. Tesla is TOAST.


They probably won't compete on equal footing for at least 4 years, probably 5 years. Maybe more.

This pace of growth will change dramatically when the 3rd and 4th quarter results appear for Tesla's finances.

PROFIT will have reared it's head, for the first time... and the stock and financial conditions will increase dramatically in a favorable direction for Tesla.

Until then, Tesla has all possible forms of 'the upper hand', and will be and is growing at a furious pace --- Across multiple technologies and multiple areas of endeavor.

So come back and re-address your statement, then. Right now it's meaningless and very ill thought out.

They'll (euro manufacturers) be playing costly catch up.... while Tesla experiences non-linear growth patterns.
gkam
4 / 5 (4) Sep 25, 2018
"EVs still aren't economically competitive or we would see a lot more of global market share. "

I keep on hearing that, always from non-owners. You are wrong. They make much more sense than the maintenance-hungry ICE with all those moving parts, by the hundreds. My Tesla has one moving part in its motor and it needs NO maintenance!

It is a 2013, and has had no maintenance. No oil changes, no gasoline fill-ups, no emissions checks, no filters to change, no transmission, no muffler, no tune-ups.

What do you do? All of that? Do you use your personal time for all of that?

No me. We have two EVs.
Eikka
1 / 5 (1) Sep 25, 2018
Eikka, you should stick with your apparent strengths like software.


MacOS 9 was still not fully pre-emptive multitasking, which meant that software had to hand control back to the OS, and if the software didn't, then the OS couldn't do anything. It also lacked protected memory, so software could access RAM that was not appointed to it.

I will let you in a little secret Eikka, the hundreds of thousands of people buying Tesla EVs are not idiots. For one thing, this will be the most expensive vehicle many of us will ever buy. But consider the vastly reduced cost


If they really wanted to reduce cost, they wouldn't pay $100k for a car.

Wrong, see what I mean? if the answer were so obvious, how come everybody else is still trying to play catch-up?


They don't. There's nothing to catch up to - Tesla is suffering the same problem of expensive underperforming batteries as everybody else. They're just selling at a higher price point which masks the issue.
Eikka
1 / 5 (2) Sep 25, 2018
It is a 2013, and has had no maintenance. No oil changes, no gasoline fill-ups, no emissions checks, no filters to change, no transmission, no muffler, no tune-ups.


And what do you pay for that advantage?

The cost of another car.

The premium you pay for a Tesla literally buys you two cars. That more than offsets the cost of fuel and maintenance. Then you account for the faster depreciation in value (batteries don't last 20 years), and you'd be a fool to spend the money if your point is having an economic car.

And, with the Mode S you need to pay a $600 a year maintenance schedule to keep your warranty, which is a lot for a car that "requires no maintenance" - which you would know if you actually owned one.
gkam
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 25, 2018
How many gallons of fossil fuels did Eikka turn into pollution last year?
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (3) Sep 25, 2018
Mark Thomas, I configured a dual motor LR AWD Model 3 in blue, with EAP. Price is $60k US. Astoundingly, Eikka does know some things, although it is quite obvious he believes he knows all about everything. The subject of this article is not something Eikka actually knows much about, and it certainly shows.

While I generally don't expend energy arguing with trolls, I have not placed Eikka on my ignore list - he actually does know something every now and then. There are times I waver though....
gkam
3 / 5 (4) Sep 25, 2018
Zzzzz, he spends sufficient time looking things up, but then draws the wrong conclusion.
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (2) Sep 25, 2018
gkam - I reached a similar conclusion - often he sounds like a person who has read a lot of books, but not experienced much of the universe. Which would be fine, expect for the arrogant know-it-all approach.
gkam
4 / 5 (4) Sep 25, 2018
Zzzzzz, I rode in my friend's new Model 3 yesterday. He and his wife are astounded by it, although they have ridden in my Model S, P85. But mine is old, and without the self-driving or sensors.

BTW the best new add-on would be a Head Up Display for the driver on that dark panel.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
BTW the best new add-on would be a Head Up Display for the driver on that dark panel.


I agree. My current vehicle from 2012 has a HUD and I am very comfortable with it.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
Zzzzzzzz, that sounds great! I configured the same Model 3 as you in metallic silver with the 19" wheels, but without the EAP. I wanted the EAP, but frankly, I had to cut somewhere. I feel lucky to have configured the AWD during the brief period of time it was $4K.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (3) Sep 26, 2018
batteries don't last 20 years


Why not? Do you have a citation for your assertion?

Take a look at figures 6 and 7 here:

https://batteryun...atteries

If you keep the high and low state of charge near the middle of the range, the battery could easily go 20 years.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (6) Sep 26, 2018
The premium you pay for a Tesla literally buys you two cars.

Do the calcs. Get the price of a comparable ICE car and do the total cost of ownership. You'll be surprised how much cheaper the Tesla is overall (especially in terms of depreciation).

Your wallet doesn't care whether you spend the money on the sticker price or the fuel or the repairs or the maintenance costs or the tax or the insurance. Only the total sum counts.
david_king
1 / 5 (1) Sep 26, 2018
Now if someone would just come up with a SAFE AFFORDABLE electric car somewhere between the weight an SUV and a bicycle. Knock 2000 pounds off of any car and it's range and performance would increase exponentially. Why do all cars have to weigh 20 times what their passenger weighs?
gkam
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 26, 2018
Gosh, why didn't the auto makers think of that?
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
Tesla batteries to this point maintain over 80% capacity after more than 160,000 miles. Used EV batteries are being looked at for mass energy storage as well. After they are not so useful for cars due to eventual range degradation, they will still be great for use in mass energy storage.

Bottom line is that EV batteries are being considered as having a useful life significantly longer than a mere 20 years.

With regard to comparative cost, EV batteries started out 10 years ago at roughly $1000 USD per KWH capacity. A cost of $100 USD per KWH is seen as the point of cost parity. Currently Tesla is selling cars based on a less than $200 USD per KWH cost, so purchase price parity is close at hand. Of course the true cost of ownership has already passed cost parity due to excessive fuel and maintenance/repair costs for ICE vehicles.

Eikka once again has made the mistake of arrogantly posing as knowledgeable in subject matter that I happen to know something about.
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
KBK, legacy carmakers getting into the EV market might "catch up" with Tesla in 5 years, but only if Tesla decides to stand still and let them. So far, they show no signs of that sort of radical philosophy change.

Also, the assumption that legacy carmakers have an advantage due to their history is flawed. Designing an EV is a very different animal than an ICE. and ICE experience, supply chains, and culture is more likely to be a detriment than an advantage. Notice how legacy carmakers attempts to break into the EV market produce a product that looks like an ICE, but happens to be an EV. Such products never compare well to a real EV.

The Mission needs all EV carmakers to be successful. I hope legacy carmakers can compete, and compete well in the EV market. But I'll celebrate wildly in 5 years if your prediction somehow comes to pass. I expect Tesla's REAL competition to come from EV startups who did not come out of legacy organizations.
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
As for HUD, I've never had it, and so cannot miss it. I don't think I would like it. The Model 3 has such a field of view, when you experience it you don't want any intrusion.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
As for HUD, I've never had it, and so cannot miss it. I don't think I would like it.


What attracted me initially was that real fighter planes and fictional starships seem to have them. Mine simply displays the velocity and RPM. :-)

https://en.wikipe..._display
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (3) Sep 26, 2018
I just received the first call from my Delivery Advisor at Tesla!
gkam
5 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2018
"What attracted me initially was that real fighter planes and fictional starships seem to have them."

We had them on a few aircraft at Edwards AFB.
Zzzzzzzz
5 / 5 (1) Sep 26, 2018
When the subject of Tesla competition comes up, there is an elephant in the room - the charging network. Tesla's charging network is what makes a Tesla a great choice for US and European car buyers. Not only 300+ miles of range, but a nationwide fast charging network.

Not I have heard that Porsche and perhaps one other is talking about making a charging network, but that talk is much like talk about their cars. You cannot find the car, and you cannot find the charger.

You can find the Nissan Leaf, but even a charging network won't help the 100 miles of range much. But the Leaf has an air cooled battery pack. No active heat management system. As a number of unhappy Europeans have discovered, Nissan's claims about the ability of the Leaf to take road trips using fast chargers doesn't hold water. Accumulated heat limits the capacity of the battery such that one charge on the road is useful, the next one is only good for about 40 miles, and each subsequent charge far less.
Mark Thomas
5 / 5 (1) Sep 26, 2018
The automotive engineer featured in the following article is right about a number of things, for example. ignoring Tesla is a very bad idea if you want to stay in automotive manufacturing business:

"Tesla as an existential thread for the German automotive industry"

https://cleantech...on-deck/

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