Populations of early human settlers grew like an 'invasive species,' researchers find

Populations of early human settlers grew like an 'invasive species,' researchers find
Stanford researchers studying populations of early humans in South America looked at how societies overcame the limits of their local environments. One example: Andean farmers adapted their mountainous environment for agriculture through terraced farming.

Bustling cities, sprawling suburbs and blossoming agricultural regions might seem strong evidence that people have always dominated the environment. A Stanford study of South America's colonization shows that human populations did not always grow unchecked, but were at one time limited by local resources – just like any other species.

In fact, the study, published by the journal Nature, finds that for much of human history on the continent, grew like an , which are regulated by their environment as they spread into new places. Populations grew exponentially when people first colonized South America. But then they crashed, recovered slightly and plateaued for thousands of years after over-consuming local natural resources and reaching continental carrying capacity, according to the analysis.

"The question is: Have we overshot Earth's carrying capacity today?" said senior author Elizabeth Hadly, the Paul S. and Billie Achilles Professor in Environmental Biology and a senior fellow at the Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. "Because humans respond as any other invasive species, the implication is that we are headed for a crash before we stabilize our global ."

The paper, titled "Post-Invasion Demography of Prehistoric Humans in South America," is the first in a series on the interaction of local animal populations, humans and climate during the massive changes of the last 25,000 years in South America. The series will be featured at the Latin American Paleontology Congress this fall.

The study lays a foundation for understanding how humans contributed to the Pleistocene era's largest extinction of big mammals, such as ground sloths, horses and elephant-like creatures called gomphotheres. It reconstructs the history of human in South America using a newly assembled database of radiocarbon dates from more than 1,100 archaeological sites. Unlike many archaeological studies that look at environmental change in one particular site, the Stanford research's continental approach provides a picture of long-term change, such as climatic fluctuations, fundamental to human populations rather than a single culture or ecosystem.

The researchers found strong evidence for two distinct phases of demographic growth in South America. The first phase, characterized by logistic growth, occurred between 14,000 and 5,500 years ago and began with a rapid spread of people and explosive population size throughout the continent.

Then, consistent with other invasive species, humans appear to have undergone an early population decline consistent with over-exploitation of their resources. This coincided with the last pulses of an extinction of big animals. Subsequent to the loss of these big animals, humans experienced a long period of constant population size across the continent. The second phase, from about 5,500 to 2,000 years ago, saw exponential population growth. This pattern is distinct from those seen in North America, Europe and Australia.

The seemingly obvious explanation for the second phase – initial domestication of animals and crops – had minimal impact on this shift, the researchers wrote. Instead, the rise of sedentary societies is the most likely reason for exponential population growth. Practices such as intensive agriculture and inter-regional trade led to sedentism, which allowed for faster and more sustained population growth. Profound environmental impacts followed.

"Thinking about the relationship between humans and our environment, unchecked growth is not a universal hallmark of our history, but a very recent development," said co-lead author Amy Goldberg, a biology graduate student at Stanford. "In South America, it was settled societies, not just the stable food sources of agriculture, that profoundly changed how humans interact with and adapt their environment."

Today, as the world's population continues to grow, we turn to technology and culture to reset nature's carrying capacity and harvest or even create new resources.

"Technological advances, whether they are made of stone or computers, have been critical in helping to shape the world around us up until this point," said co-lead author Alexis Mychajliw a graduate student in biology. "That said, it's unclear if we can invent a way out of planetary carrying capacities."


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New research shows same growth rate for farming, non-farming prehistoric people

More information: Amy Goldberg et al. Post-invasion demography of prehistoric humans in South America, Nature (2016). DOI: 10.1038/nature17176
Journal information: Nature

Citation: Populations of early human settlers grew like an 'invasive species,' researchers find (2016, April 7) retrieved 21 October 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2016-04-populations-early-human-settlers-grew.html
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Apr 07, 2016
Is it possible to miss something you never knew? I miss hunting Pleistocene mega-fauna. Nevertheless, I survive. My son will survive an absence of depth and width to biological diversity, and vast tracks of area "untrammeled by man" which I knew well growing up. Each generation resets the baseline of what it means to be conservative, and what constitutes a past to long for. But I think we've passed a tipping point. The bubble we are in *will* end. Will it pop or will we gently deflate it? Maybe it's time to turn the reins of power over to women and get them well steeped in philosophy. I can't think of anything else we haven't already tried. Negative population growth may not be existentially necessary, but it is necessary for any world I would ever want to live in.

Apr 07, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Apr 07, 2016
antigoracle: Not really. When those who know better, such as yourself, just call "bullshit" with no analysis/explanation, it's not only not astonishing, it's to be expected. What the world needs more, is people like you who know something is bullshit but who also take the time to explain why it's bullshit to folks like me who don't know bullshit when we see it. I suppose it might not be your job to teach, but then again, if not, what good is your post if you don't? Are us stupid people supposed to be compelled to do further research into the subject just because some unknown person on the internet said it was bullshit, without explanation? I know your post has not motivated me to question the article. It just motivates me to question you and to do more research into you, to see why your post isn't bullshit.

Apr 07, 2016
Dear antigoracle: Strike my last. As stated, I was motivated to investigate you and, having done so, regardless of whether or not the subject article is bullshit, I have found that indeed, your post is suspect based upon your record of bullshit here on PhysOrg. I'd explain why your other posts are bullshit, but I'm no teacher. Your record speaks for itself. Sorry for the digression people.

Apr 07, 2016
"Like" an invasive species?

Humans literally were an invasive species.

Apr 07, 2016
I thought it was just Americans, not the entire species

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain most of the elites and their sycophantic minions have for humanity. I suspect that if they were given an opportunity to kill off 90% to 100% of humanity (in an environmentally sensitive fashion of course) many would eagerly do so.

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain most of the elites and their sycophantic minions have for humanity. I suspect that if they were given an opportunity to kill off 90% to 100% of humanity (in an environmentally sensitive fashion of course) many would eagerly do so.


I certainly would. I think 30 to 40 people per 10,000 square miles of temperate zone would be okay. As long as we had you and your ilk as slaves. Somebody had to vacuum and do dishes, amiright?

Apr 07, 2016
Negative population growth may not be existentially necessary, but it is necessary for any world I would ever want to live in.

You should investigate yourself and perchance realize your ignorance and hypocrisy. If your claim is true, why did to add to the population? Why are you still here?

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain most of the elites and their sycophantic minions have for humanity. I suspect that if they were given an opportunity to kill off 90% to 100% of humanity (in an environmentally sensitive fashion of course) many would eagerly do so.


I certainly would. I think 30 to 40 people per 10,000 square miles of temperate zone would be okay. As long as we had you and your ilk as slaves. Somebody had to vacuum and do dishes, amiright?

Spoken like the true parasite you are.

Apr 07, 2016
Negative population growth may not be existentially necessary, but it is necessary for any world I would ever want to live in.

You should investigate yourself and perchance realize your ignorance and hypocrisy. If your claim is true, why did to add to the population? Why are you still here?


You should "perchance" (LOL!) look up the false and lazy charge of hypocrisy.

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain most of the elites and their sycophantic minions have for humanity. I suspect that if they were given an opportunity to kill off 90% to 100% of humanity (in an environmentally sensitive fashion of course) many would eagerly do so.

Well while I wouldn't do that, I'd welcome if someone is crazy enough to actually do it... because the survivors would be way better off than we are now.

Apr 07, 2016
Yes, I mistook hypocrisy for parasitic.

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain most of the elites and their sycophantic minions have for humanity. I suspect that if they were given an opportunity to kill off 90% to 100% of humanity (in an environmentally sensitive fashion of course) many would eagerly do so.


I certainly would. I think 30 to 40 people per 10,000 square miles of temperate zone would be okay. As long as we had you and your ilk as slaves. Somebody had to vacuum and do dishes, amiright?

Spoken like the true parasite you are.


It's amazing the disdain you minions have for your superior elites.

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain you minions have for your superior elites.

LOL. You confuse disdain with nausea, for your superior stench.

Apr 07, 2016
Yes, I mistook hypocrisy for parasitic.


As stated, I did some research and found you mistake a lot of things, like the notion this article is bullshit. Maybe it is, I don't know, but then you've mistaken your opinion as worth submitting.

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain you minions have for your superior elites.

LOL. You confuse disdain with nausea, for your superior stench.


Well now, minion, if I stink it's only because you are not doing your job. You should get back to my laundry.

Apr 07, 2016
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Apr 07, 2016
We are the most invasive species.

Apr 07, 2016
There you go again, all confused. It must be your "superior" inbreeding. The stench is coming from your mouth, or is that your anus? There is no way to tell the difference. Perhaps you can research that.

Apr 07, 2016
There you go again, all confused. It must be your "superior" inbreeding. The stench is coming from your mouth, or is that your anus? There is no way to tell the difference. Perhaps you can research that.


He says as he scrubs the skid marks from my shorts. LOL!

Apr 07, 2016
There you go again, all confused. It must be your "superior" inbreeding. The stench is coming from your mouth, or is that your anus? There is no way to tell the difference. Perhaps you can research that.


He says as he scrubs the skid marks from my shorts. LOL!

You do need to stop wiping your mouth with your shorts. But, it's not your fault you are an inbred idiot. LOL!

Apr 07, 2016
We're the only ones judging ourselves. As the invasive species of this era, we're the ones to write the rules and pay the price for it....or fetch the reward by going further than any other invasive species on Earth ever went.
It's not an article about how evil humanity is and how good it would be for it to disappear. It's about understanding what we did and how.

Apr 07, 2016
"That said, it's unclear if we can invent a way out of planetary carrying capacities."

This is the closest the author gets to admitting that the planetary carrying capacity depends on the technology used by the inhabitants. Humans--at least, technologically-adept humans--can't be analyzed like most animals, because humans profoundly change their environments. Western fertility rates have fallen through the floor, so much so that native Germans may cease to exist in the next century. Virtually all the population increase is projected to be in Africa and Asia, away from technological and financial centers of power.

The author shouldn't talk of a planetary carrying capacity without specifying exactly what that is; I argue that it isn't a fixed value.

Apr 07, 2016
There you go again, all confused. It must be your "superior" inbreeding. The stench is coming from your mouth, or is that your anus? There is no way to tell the difference. Perhaps you can research that.


He says as he scrubs the skid marks from my shorts. LOL!

You do need to stop wiping your mouth with your shorts. But, it's not your fault you are an inbred idiot. LOL!


As a card-carrying member of the elite, I know It's important to let the minions vent. It's good for their moral and it helps them scrub. Good boy! Keep scrubbing. Oops! You missed a spot! LOL!

Apr 07, 2016
As a card-carrying member of the elite...

I'm sure daddy is also a member. Did you ever find out if he's grandpa or uncle? Anyway, that card is to ensure you receive the proper ..er..excuse me... elite mental care. LOL

Dug
Apr 07, 2016
The natural phosphorus cycle limited humans to under 1 billion people until the industrial revolution and the invention of NPK fertilizers - derived from petroleum and P and K petro-chemical mineral ore processing agents. Our entire over population has been brought about by cheap energy and its organic by-products and the ability to bio-activate phosphate and potassium ores. Once we run out of both cheap petroleum and the current cheap stocks of economically feasible food grade rock phosphates (some think less than 30 years - (https://www.youtu...qsmy43o) - we'll be heading back to the limits of the natural phosphorus cycle.

Of course as yet no one has come up with an economic system that will support the existing population without continual population/market growth - and the chaotic consequences of this economic limitation will likely trim our excessive population well before critical resource limits. The interesting times are just beginning.

Apr 07, 2016
We've invented VR & internet, this wild further make us 'sedentary' (in a sense of not migrating & travelling). Which will further increase human carrying capacity of Earth, just like how the article suggest agriculture did.

Apr 07, 2016
I thought it was just Americans, not the entire species
- kochevnik
Bite your tongue.

Apr 07, 2016
It's amazing the disdain most of the elites and their sycophantic minions have for humanity. I suspect that if they were given an opportunity to kill off 90% to 100% of humanity (in an environmentally sensitive fashion of course) many would eagerly do so.
- tblakely1357
It is already being done...especially by Liberal/Progressives (in the USA). The process is called "EUGENICS" and it is a peaceful annihilation (murder) of newly-born babies who are/were born normal except for the fact that they weren't wanted by their birth mothers. This is the Margaret Sanger recipe for "culling the herd" to reduce human population(s)...originally meant to reduce a certain race who have a high population growth.
The other methods of population reduction are war and biological warfare. Designer diseases are very popular now. AIDS, Kiva, Ebola have taken the place of smallpox, Black Plague, cholera, etc.

Apr 07, 2016
Human Nature: Bring the extended family, find a spot, build a nest, eat everything within two days walk, spoil the nest, move on.
Human culture: as our technology improved, our population increased, and, at the margins, new technology was needed to overcome natural boundaries.
Igloos are the perfect example.
technology no longer is for overcoming natural limits.
technology overwhelms nature, and, the new equilibrium that nature will establish will not include humans.

we'll be extinct within 100 years.
No where else to go, we've even spoiled near Earth orbit with junk, removed 50% of the life in the sea in the last 50 years, and the rosiest projections say we'll have this much population or much more (like 11Bn) for the next 100 years.

It is immoral for anyone, anywhere, to have children, anymore.

vhemt.org


Apr 07, 2016
Populations of early human settlers grew like an 'invasive species'
And are the current immigration waves something fundamentally different? The principle remains the same.

- compose
The first Syrian family flew to the U.S. from Jordan yesterday, 4/6/2016 and will be settled in Kansas City, Mo. It is unknown if they are Muslim or Christaian, just that they are refugees from war-torn Syria. Obama wants to bring in 10.000...and even more to the U.S. where young Americans can't even find a steady job that pays well enough to live on. WHERE are these extra people going to find jobs...I have no idea.

Apr 08, 2016
Humans applying the term 'invasive' to the human species is the most dangerous idea ever conceived. Don't buy into it, don't hold back from criticizing the term's use, and above all... DO NOT take a neutral position. Either enthusiastically SUPPORT the idea of labeling humans 'invasive' OR oppose it wholeheartedly and jeer at those who do so.

Because it is (in the end) a fight to the death. One may argue that refusing to don a cloak of guilt may lead to our destruction of the environment. One may also argue however, as I do, that people who accept the idea that humans are 'invasive' is a gateway to sanctioned genocide (those people first) or deliberate suicide (all it takes is one crazy person).

DON'T BE ON THE FENCE. I URGE YOU TO TAKE SERIOUS OFFENSE to this label.
We are the intelligent embodiment of evolution. It is about problems to solve and overcome.
DO NOT take the DEAD END of dismissing humans as a PROBLEM.

Thanks kindly for listening.

Apr 08, 2016
Either enthusiastically SUPPORT the idea of labeling humans 'invasive' OR oppose it wholeheartedly and jeer at those who do so.


Your post is an example of part of the problem: Dualistic thinking (two-valued orientation). Almost as bad as the false dichotomy. Remember people, when someone gives you two choices, pick the third. We can recognize ourselves as an invasive species and still think of ways to let the air out of the bubble slowly, and gently. That is, if we are as smart as we think we are. If not, we will be dealt with accordingly.

For you conservatives, think of Scalia's concentric circles of care; only at some point, that which you see as further out actually poses less of threat to you (endangered snail darter) and is actually more crucial to your existence than that which is closer in (your fellow humans). They switch places but dumb people don't know it.

Apr 08, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Apr 08, 2016
Remember people, when someone gives you two choices, pick the third.

Uh huh, pick the TURD, i.e. you, the card carrying inbred degenerate.

We can recognize ourselves as an invasive species..

Sure, but we need to beware of the parasites like you.


Your intellectual superiors know full well that all humans are parasites as far as the Earth is concerned. We give nothing back. Then, in turn, your intellectual superiors, like me, are indeed parasites on people like you. We own that. You are our slaves, just by virtue of your stupidity. Now get back to scrubbing the skid marks out of my shorts . . . after you get the last word in, of course; We know that makes you feel better about your lot in life, scrubbing our shorts. Chop chop! LOL!

Apr 08, 2016
Any species will produce more offspring than can be expected to survive to maturity. This is compensation for natural attrition rates and also provides pressures that force excess populations to seek out new niches, adapt, and form new species.

Humans are a tropical species. Our repro rates adjusted to compensate for high tropical attrition rates.

But we began to cheat the system by eliminating each of the attrition elements which had kept our numbers in check.

As soon as we became able to hunt the predators who had hunted us, humans became the principal enemies of humans. Tribes became the preferred social structure, and tribal warfare became the principal activity.

Those tribes that could maintain greater internal cohesion and cooperation coupled with consistent animosity toward outsiders, would tend to prevail in conflict.

Group selection became the formative mechanism in human development.
http://rint.recht...rid2.htm

Apr 08, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.

Apr 08, 2016
@socks It is already being done...especially by Liberal/Progressives (in the USA). The process is called "EUGENICS" and it is a peaceful annihilation (murder) of newly-born babies who are/were born normal except for the fact that they weren't wanted by their birth mothers. This is the Margaret Sanger recipe for "culling the herd" to reduce human population(s)...originally meant to reduce a certain race who have a high population growth.
The other methods of population reduction are war and biological warfare. Designer diseases are very popular now. AIDS, Kiva, Ebola have taken the place of smallpox, Black Plague, cholera, etc.
You mean liberals are naturalists and pantheists?
I thought it was just Americans, not the entire species
- kochevnik
Bite your tongue.
Some elements will want payback for the NAZI sponsorship in Ukraine and USA murders of ethnic Russians. Meddling with a nuclear nation's border is fucking insane, no?

Apr 08, 2016
Either enthusiastically SUPPORT the idea of labeling humans 'invasive' OR oppose it wholeheartedly and jeer at those who do so.


Your post is an example of part of the problem: Dualistic thinking (two-valued orientation). Almost as bad as the false dichotomy. Remember people, when someone gives you two choices, pick the third.


Dualistic thinking is where the rubber meets the road.
Your post seems like a cryptic way of saying dualistic thinking is OK so long as it's used to pass judgement on people, not ideas. We've become surrounded by 'third choices' that turn out to be clumsy or immature ideas, ways to procrastinate decisions, ways to shave little corners off of things in ways that do not yield insight or innovation, and (in terms of environment) moving on ways to leave our children with fewer choices for survival than we have.


Apr 08, 2016
HocusLocus, snip


The two-valued orientation is illogical. It is black/white, either/or thinking, and the very foundation of passing judgement on people *and* ideas. It is, indeed, where the rubber meets the road. Alternative choices, be they 3rd, 4th or etc. are off road. The road is what we often need to leave. Alternatives give our children infinitely more choices. Sure, they make the duelistic mind uncomfortable with clumsy and immature ideas which push us forward. But we have not become surrounded by them. Quite the contrary. We are surrounded by duelistic thinkers and limited choices. Conservatives and reactionaries, if you will; the fearful. Those who think outside the box remain familiar with what is in it. Those who think inside the box don't know what is outside of it. The rubber meets the road inside the box. Go off-roading. Build new roads.

Apr 09, 2016
Those who think inside the box don't know what is outside of it. The rubber meets the road inside the box. Go off-roading. Build new roads.

Uh huh. Next time you are standing outside the box, stick your head in and take a whiff of the shite that fell out of your head into it, before you paint the forum with it. Go off a cliff. Take a long walk on a short pier. I know you think you sound intelligent, but this makes more sense -- https://www.youtu...6cRQq4No

Apr 09, 2016
Those who think inside the box don't know what is outside of it. The rubber meets the road inside the box. Go off-roading. Build new roads.

Uh huh. Next time you are standing outside the box, stick your head in and take a whiff of the shite that fell out of your head into it, before you paint the forum with it. Go off a cliff. Take a long walk on a short pier. I know you think you sound intelligent, but this makes more sense -- https://www.youtu...6cRQq4No


Night night, son. Get my skivvies cleaned for me by morning. Oh, and not by licking like you usually do. Just scrub! That's a good boy. Now, you have the last word because I know it makes you feel better about your sorry lot in life. :-)

Apr 09, 2016
Now get back to scrubbing the skid marks out of my shorts .

Now that's what I'm talking about. See how easy that was. There's that "superior" intellect. It's of a pedigree that can only be produced from generations of inbreeding. Who taught you to wipe your mouth with your shorts? Was it your daddy? Who's your daddy? Grandpa or uncle?

Apr 09, 2016
Now that's what I'm talking about. See how easy that was. There's that "superior" intellect. It's of a pedigree that can only be produced from generations of inbreeding. Who taught you to wipe your mouth with your shorts? Was it your daddy? Who's your daddy? Grandpa or uncle?


Your momma showed me how she wiped your mouth with my shorts when you were just a pup. Now you've learned the trick. Alas, minions have their quirks. As long as the shorts get cleaned by my inferiors, that's a good thing. As they say, the great unwashed aren't happy if they aren't bitching so it's good to see you happy. LOL! On the other hand, us elites have real discussions to hold with people who can think beyond calling bullshit and walking away (save for trolling) so I have to leave you to your bitching and trolling. Thanks for cleaning my underwear, even if you had to use your tongue to do it.

Apr 09, 2016
Your momma showed me....

Awww... did I hurt the poor inbred retard's feelings?

Apr 09, 2016
Was it your daddy? Who's your daddy? Grandpa or uncle?


Awww... did I hurt the poor inbred retard's feelings?

Apr 09, 2016
@socks It is already being done...especially by Liberal/Progressives (in the USA). The process is called "EUGENICS" and it is a peaceful annihilation (murder) of newly-born babies who are/were born normal except for the fact that they weren't wanted by their birth mothers. This is the Margaret Sanger recipe for "culling the herd" to reduce human population(s)...originally meant to reduce a certain race who have a high population growth.
The other methods of population reduction are war and biological warfare. Designer diseases are very popular now. AIDS, Kiva, Ebola have taken the place of smallpox, Black Plague, cholera, etc.
You mean liberals are naturalists and pantheists?
I thought it was just Americans, not the entire species
- kochevnik
Bite your tongue.
Some elements will want payback for the NAZI sponsorship in Ukraine and USA murders of ethnic Russians. Meddling with a nuclear nation's border is fucking insane, no?
- kochevnik

Apr 09, 2016
(cont'd
@kochevnik
You mean liberals are naturalists and pantheists?
I thought it was just Americans, not the entire species
- kochevnik
Bite your tongue.
Some elements will want payback for the NAZI sponsorship in Ukraine and USA murders of ethnic Russians. Meddling with a nuclear nation's border is fucking insane, no?


Ukraine is an independent, sovereign nation with its own political system and culture. The U.S. had nothing to do with the killing of ethnic Russians on Ukrainian soil. You should understand that Ukraine never gave up that territory in the East and it is/was not the fault of the U.S. that the ethnic Russians had the temerity to attempt a complete overthrow and takeover of that part of Ukraine. Crimea is one thing...but Ukraine itself...any part of it is understandably preventable from a hostile or passive takeover through a marked aggressiveness from your "elements".
Of course it's insane, that's why it wasn't done.

Apr 10, 2016
'You mean liberals are naturalists and pantheists?' - kochevnik

They are what they are. It's not my role to pigeonhole a Liberal/Socialist/Progressive(Regressive)/Marxist/Communist as to their preferences and beliefs. WRT to any pantheism exhibited by Liberals - I would have to crisscross the U.S. in order to poll each and every one, and it might not be worth the time and trouble, since most people don't give such very personal information out to strangers. I don't see why it would matter whether or not Liberals have a belief in God the Creator. Even a cult is made up of individuals and each individual may vary wrt the degree of belief and to what extent their belief is held.
BTW, I have heard some very perturbing news that both Presidents Petroshenko and Vladimir Putin, as well as many other "elites" of the rich and powerful are being accused of stealing big bucks from their respective nations. I do hope that it is only a rumor. However, I recall something about Litvinenko..

Apr 10, 2016
It's not my role to pigeonhole a Liberal/Socialist/Progressive etc
?? I thought your role was to plant sweet sorghum and identify 900 ft tall glassy-headed headed martians in NASA photos while flooding this site with inane posts about religious nonsense and political gibberish.

And calling poor otto a demon while he is obviously the good guy.

And keeping woodpeckers off your roof and squirrels out of the crawlspace under your trailer.

And seeking out the best sales of cheetos and ring dings to stretch your food stamps.

And also trying to make people believe that you're an engineer from Cal Tech who works at NASA and thinks they should have microphones on rovers to listen for Martian trash talk.

IOW you're the physorg entertainment director.

Apr 10, 2016
Like julie on the love boat
https://youtu.be/mwPbMk0oVNc

-only a whole lot... bigger...

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