Research reveals the reality of runaway ice loss in Antarctica

November 28, 2015
Antarctic ice

By studying rocks at different elevations beside the East Antarctic Ice Sheet (EAIS), the team concluded that a period of rapid glacier thinning occurred in the recent geological past, and persisted for several centuries.

Satellite observations show that parts of the Antarctic ice sheet are currently thinning in response to a warming ocean. Of particular concern is the potential for 'marine instability', where an initial retreat of ice margins into deepening valleys could lead to continued, unstable ice loss.

The new research, led by Postdoctoral Research Fellow Dr Richard Jones, indicates that the processes leading to instability can be initiated by just minor climate warming.

"The finding is very important for predicting Antarctica's future contribution to change," says Dr Jones. "Particularly when considering that the EAIS contains enough vulnerable ice to raise sea level by tens of metres.

"It might only require a small amount of climate variation to initiate runaway ice loss, and it could continue for centuries to millennia," says Dr Jones.

While this process has been posited for many years, the study presents the first directly recorded evidence that it has taken place in the past, providing new insight into the future behaviour of rapidly changing parts of Antarctica today.

A major strength of the study was combining numerical modelling experiments that simulate glacier retreat with geological data that recorded past ice surface lowering.

"Most research has previously focused on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, which makes these observations from East Antarctica all the more significant," says Dr Jones.

Dr Jones' research has been published in the journal Nature Communications.

Explore further: The threat of global sea level rise

More information: R. S. Jones et al. Rapid Holocene thinning of an East Antarctic outlet glacier driven by marine ice sheet instability, Nature Communications (2015). DOI: 10.1038/ncomms9910

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baudrunner
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 28, 2015
It might only require a small amount of climate variation to initiate runaway ice loss, and it could continue for centuries to millennia
It's true that Earth's climate system is a very fragile one. Go too far north, and you will freeze to death. Far enough south, and you will burn. It's also true that the subtly changing orientation of Earth with respect to Sol caused by the dynamics of that wobble of the Earth on its axis also does enough to influence that climate system. We should stop blaming ourselves, and just go to the beach.
SuperThunder
3.5 / 5 (8) Nov 28, 2015
Okay, howlers, line up and make phys.org money!

phys.org should sponsor a cubesat to study climate change, to make good use of the howlermoney.http://www.voanew...801.html

jeffensley
1.9 / 5 (13) Nov 28, 2015
So with recent evidence indicating drastic changes in Earth's climate prior to human influence, I guess the word "unprecedented" should no longer be used by alarmists attempting to use blind fear to drive policy. Now that we are getting better glimpses of the changes in Earth's past, what will be the goal of those seeking to "control" the climate if change is no longer as fearsome as we thought?
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (20) Nov 28, 2015
Go too far north, and you will freeze to death. Far enough south, and you will burn
@baud
logically, if you go too far south, you will freeze to death too...
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (12) Nov 28, 2015
More fodder for the ignorant hungry Chicken Littles.
The Holocene borders on the end of the last ice age, so surprise, ice melted. Only the Chicken Little idiots would fall for this.
Neverman
4.2 / 5 (20) Nov 28, 2015
So with recent evidence indicating drastic changes in Earth's climate prior to human influence, I guess the word "unprecedented" should no longer be used by alarmists...


Several things wrong with your point.

Drastic changes in the past resulted in drastic effects that often took millions of years to play out. You are making the opposite point of what you think you are.

"Unprecedented" refers to events within human time frames. Scientists are well aware the Earth has gone through difficult times in the past. That is why today's changes should be taken seriously.

You can call scientists "alarmists" ...OR... provide science that show that humans are not causing serious environmental damage ...OR... provide a solution that mitigates environmental damage.

Of those three, calling scientists "alarmists' is the most meaningless.
runrig
4.6 / 5 (11) Nov 28, 2015
Go too far north, and you will freeze to death. Far enough south, and you will burn
@baud
logically, if you go too far south, you will freeze to death too...

Apologies Capt a senior moment led to me giving you a 1.
Shootist
1.4 / 5 (9) Nov 28, 2015
Human caused "global warming" is a fraud.
dirk_bruere
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 28, 2015
Yes, anthropic climate change is a conspiracy involving hundreds, possibly thousands, of scientists for no particular reason other than to piss off the extremely rich oil companies.
Bongstar420
2.5 / 5 (8) Nov 28, 2015
Yes, anthropic climate change is a conspiracy involving hundreds, possibly thousands, of scientists for no particular reason other than to piss off the extremely rich oil companies.


It could be used to institute a technocracy
RealityCheck
3.5 / 5 (8) Nov 28, 2015
Hi jeffensley, antigoracle, Shootist. :)

@ jeff ensley;
@ antigoracle:

So you would call those volcanologist/seismologist scientist and experienced observers 'alarmists' and 'chicken littles' if they warned you of likely imminent eruptive/seismic events/disaster? You would stay put and be buried in ash/crushed under collapsing buildings or swallowed by fissures in the ground beneath your house? I don't suspect for one moment you would call them "alarmists/chicken-littles"...or would you?

@Shootist:

So you have now renounced Freeman Dyson?...You know, your erstwhile hero-authority whom you quoted often in past propaganda posts while NOT KNOWING that HE DOES acknowledge AGW, and that it's due to human activity/CO2-emissions.

What does that make you guys? :)
my2cts
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 28, 2015
More fodder for the ignorant hungry Chicken Littles.
The Holocene borders on the end of the last ice age, so surprise, ice melted. Only the Chicken Little idiots would fall for this.

Tell us anti, what did chicken little ever do to you that you are so obsessed ?
jeffensley
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 28, 2015
So you would call those volcanologist/seismologist scientist and experienced observers 'alarmists' and 'chicken littles' if they warned you of likely imminent eruptive/seismic events/disaster? You would stay put and be buried in ash/crushed under collapsing buildings or swallowed by fissures in the ground beneath your house? I don't suspect for one moment you would call them "alarmists/chicken-littles"...or would you?


I don't think that's a good example to use. http://phys.org/n...fic.html

There's a huge difference between long-term prediction and real-time observation. If a Doppler radar indicated the likely presence of a tornado, I would take cover. If a weatherman said there would be a chance of a tornado 10-days from now, I wouldn't pack up my house and move. There's no evidence to indicate we have the ability to make long-term predictions with any complex system ad our climate is about as complex as it gets.
my2cts
4 / 5 (8) Nov 28, 2015
Human caused "global warming" is a fraud.

Such a big accusation and no proof at all.
I am hesitating between two possibilities.
You could be right but you have no proof. Also you are anonymous without any proven climate knowledge. On the other hand the climate scientists have proven skills and methods and lots of data. They did a huge amount of work, too. You shootist are to lazy to even argue. I like your message though: "no problems, everybody go to sleep". Kinda comforting.
I'll just stick with the climate science. Yes. Definitely.
RealityCheck
2.7 / 5 (7) Nov 28, 2015
Hi jeffensley. :)

I'm glad to see your assurance that you would react less hostilely to warnings from relevant scientific community of imminent danger re volcanoes/earthquakes. :)

As for longterm warnings from scientific community, it is what it is; precisely because it is longterm being canvassed; probability/educated judgements being necessarily what is called for.

Ie, in every longterm case, we CAN use any recent/current observations which tend to confirm accuracy/likelyhood that the longterm danger is real, even if not immediately obvious to anyone not having regard to all data/experience historical, up-to-date AND 'imminent' projections.

The question you have to answer for yourself now is: Should one wait until the scientists are proven 100% correct in their longterm prognostications based on evolving reality today? If so, and they turn out to be 100% correct, where will one be? Up shite creek without a paddle; and it's the procrastination that got one there. :)
Jeffhans1
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 28, 2015
Considering that the sea level has gone up 125 meters in the last 20,000 years, polar ice changes like this would be expected.
RealityCheck
3 / 5 (6) Nov 28, 2015
Hi jeffensley. :)
Considering that the sea level has gone up 125 meters in the last 20,000 years, polar ice changes like this would be expected.
But they occurred in ancient geologic times and were due to natural causes. We now have billions of humans on the planet, and this latest 'contribution' to the cause of AGW and all the destabilizing effects which it brings, are not natural. Our human activity/emissions are ONE MORE factor on top of the pre-existing natural ones. We can't control the former factors, but we CAN control the latter factor. That is the point. We don't say we can control anything except OUR human activity/emissions which may be exacerbating/accelerating the natural systemic evolution of the non-human-related factors/dynamics. Good luck to us all. :)
RealityCheck
2 / 5 (4) Nov 28, 2015
Errata...

My previous post should have been addressed to Jeffhans1, not jeffensley. My apologies to both for that typo. Thanks. :)
RealityCheck
1.8 / 5 (5) Nov 28, 2015
Hi Forum. :)

One has to ask: Who (or should that be 'what') would be daft/insensible enough to downvote an "errata" post which was merely correcting a typo re interlocutors' usernames? Seems the 'idiot/bot' is still with us. :)
Uncle Ira
3 / 5 (6) Nov 28, 2015
@ Really-Skippy. How you are Cher? I'm pretty good, thanks for asking.

Hi Forum. :)

One has to ask: Who (or should that be 'what') would be daft/insensible enough to downvote an "errata" post which was merely correcting a typo re interlocutors' usernames? Seems the 'idiot/bot' is still with us. :)


Well you are in luck Cher, you ask one question that ol Ira-Skippy can answer for you. It was me. But I thought you already knew how to check on that without bothering the "Forum" with it.

Okayeei, I will tell you how. If you click on your name there at the top of the comment you got the bad karma point vote for the physorg will take you to your page with a list of all the bad karma votes you got. Sometimes you got think a little to figure out who voted how. But with me it is easy so you don't waste you time trying figure it out. If you see that I was one of the Skippys who voted, you can just go ahead and assume that one was a bad karma vote.

Uncle Ira
3 / 5 (6) Nov 28, 2015
P.S. for you Really-Skippy.

About the Earthling Club. Since I am the Honorary Earthling maybe I will start giving you some good karma votes but only on the environmental stuffs. The physics and universe stuffs I just don't think I will able to bring myself to good vote you on those.
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (5) Nov 28, 2015
Hi again, Forum.:)

Looks like the idiot/bot hasn't the wit to recall that it was I myself who advised 'it' how to look up the feedback pages. And if that idiot/bot thinks he can claim that he is in any way honorable, let alone an "Honorary Earthling", it is sadly deluded;especially so if it thinks that 'it' being a bot-voting idiot on a Science Site will recommend 'it' for any 'honors' or 'honoraries' anywhere worth a damn to the polite, objective and intelligent science and humanity discourse.

It still seems to be deluded that it's skewing the ratings metric on a Science Site is 'ok' and has any relevance for anyone except 'it'.

Well anyway, this answers our question:

Hi Forum. :)

One has to ask: Who (or should that be 'what') would be daft/insensible enough to downvote an "errata" post which was merely correcting a typo re interlocutors' usernames? Seems the 'idiot/bot' is still with us. :)


Doesn't it? And how! That poor, daft/insensible idiot/bot. Pity. :(
Paulw789
3 / 5 (6) Nov 28, 2015
I love how they keep blaming the warming oceans around Antarctica but they have cooled substantially in the last 20 years.

I know most people do not know this, especially climate scientists, but at some point, people should know some FACTS and quit making stuff up.
RealityCheck
3 / 5 (6) Nov 28, 2015
Hi Paulw789. :)

Mate, it's more complex than you realize from that facile assertion without all the facts. The surface coastal waters around antarctic cool when offshore winds chilled by melting land/ocean glacier-ice blow over them on the way to Australia/South America/Africa and oceans between them. That's how the warmed air circulates to and then from the poles from warmer/equatorial seas. The water just below that cooled surface laps up against the coastal seabed slope/fringe to warm/weaken/melt the coastal land/sea-glaciers ice from below. It's all complex and the various 'swings' in the dynamics will happen over periods of months to oscillate between one way and the other. Hence the uncertainty as to longterm 'timing' of the critical stage when the process becomes mostly one-way...ie, ice on land/coast warming/melting more often than cooling/reforming. Then we're in trouble. As that will be an indication we have passed 'Tipping Point' for AGW. Study it more. :)
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (10) Nov 28, 2015
Hi Paulw789. :)

.... facile assertion without all the facts. surface coastal waters around antarctic cool when offshore winds chilled by melting land/ocean glacier-ice blow over them on the way to Australia/South America/Africa and oceans between them. That's how the warmed air circulates to and then from the poles from warmer/equatorial seas. The water just below that cooled surface laps up against the coastal seabed slope/fringe to warm/weaken/melt the coastal land/sea-glaciers ice from below. It's all complex and the various 'swings' in the dynamics will happen over periods of months to oscillate between one way and the other. Hence the uncertainty as to longterm 'timing' of the critical stage when the process becomes mostly one-way...ie, ice on land/coast warming/melting more often than cooling/reforming.

Ha..ha..ha..you've outdone yourself. Must have been real easy for you to blow that hogwash out of where the sun don't shine. Tell us, why is Antarctica covered in ice?
RealityCheck
3.7 / 5 (9) Nov 29, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
Tell us, why is Antarctica covered in ice?
You don't know?! No wonder your comments on these matters of global climate/weather/geophysics/geochemistry etc have been so uninformed and dogmatic. You obviously haven't a clue. Please study up so you don't unwittingly make any more such embarrassing tacit admissions you know nothing about it. Really, antigoracle, you've lost your Freeman Dyson tactic; you've lost your not-warming tactic; you've lost your claim to knowing anything about it at all (especially since you didn't know pre-1950's observations and post-1950's observations on Climate. well before any GOP/Fossil/Religious Lobbies/loonies decided to muddy the waters and politicize for their own nefarious agendas having nothing to do with caring about anyone or the climate science). Now you don't even know why Antarctica is cold and has had ice since the last ice age? Give it up, mate; this particular issue is not for lobbyists to play with anymore. :)
antigoracle
1.9 / 5 (9) Nov 29, 2015
There you go again, just confirming what I've known all along. You're just another Chicken Little idiot. Tell us, why is Antarctica covered in ice?
BartV
1.6 / 5 (7) Nov 29, 2015

Of particular concern is the POTENTIAL for 'marine ice sheet instability'....

It MIGHT only require a small amount of climate variation to initiate runaway ice loss....



Folks, this is not science, it is mere speculation.

Eddy Courant
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015
Why can't we just let the climate change the way it always has and always will? The oceans are not going to boil off. We're not going to turn into Venus. Jim Hansen and Al Gore really got the fruits and nuts going.
Water_Prophet
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 29, 2015
The powers that be have recognized the real issues and are taking appropriate steps.
Wind, solar, local power, reducing the 40% grid loss, and LEDs, electric cars, etc..

Blame it on the idea they will lose all that expensive beachland, or maybe even their dull, thick, money addled brains acknowledging that man-made climate change will not be pleasant and perhps not profitable.

In any case, the war is over.
jeffensley
1.5 / 5 (8) Nov 29, 2015
The powers that be have recognized the real issues and are taking appropriate steps.
Wind, solar, local power, reducing the 40% grid loss, and LEDs, electric cars, etc..

Blame it on the idea they will lose all that expensive beachland, or maybe even their dull, thick, money addled brains acknowledging that man-made climate change will not be pleasant and perhps not profitable.

In any case, the war is over.


It's called a free market economy where innovations are rewarded. Increased efficiency is icing on the cake. Just don't make-believe that this equals some reduction in temperature. The Earth is going to warm and cool despite our efforts to control it.
RealityCheck
3.7 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
There you go again, just confirming what I've known all along. You're just another Chicken Little idiot. Tell us, why is Antarctica covered in ice?
There you go again, being ignorant of past geologic/tectonic/meteorological etc phases/swings since Earth formed; and to this present age where humans can exist because conditions have evolved to be favorable to such existence within a range of climatic/weather/temp oscillation/change patterns which doesn't kill us or make life hell every day because of extreme climate/weather/storm/drought/flood pattern which is even now developing around the globe as we speak and as the news reports confirm more and more as each year passes. Our state of Queensland is now being pummeled by extremes of one sort or another practically every week and year-round. Unusual is a humongous understatement of the costs/heartache and rolling-disaster-hell which is developing in just that part of the globe. Get real/informed. :)
RealityCheck
3.4 / 5 (5) Nov 29, 2015
Hi Eddy Courant, jeffensley. :)

It's a question of whether we can afford the costs/misery en masse, and the political/food/transportation etc infrastructure/security we have come to enjoy in our BILLIONS which would be affected more adversely/widespreadly to put it mildly. Past changes were what they were due to totally natural causes, some of the factors behind those causes having long disappeared/ameliorated due to the evolving system to this point in its present 'chaotic equilibrium' range which suits us and we have adapted to. Any future changes which are due to UN-natural ADDITIONAL/DESTABILIZING human-activity/emissions are shaping up to be both too fast/costly to adapt to, even if we could, considering the BILLIONS of us who would be displaced and the conflict that will inevitably ensue.

And again, it's not us 'controlling weather/climate', it's controlling ONLY OUR ADDITIONAL contributory causes/factors destabilizing previous prevailing climate/weather patterns. :)
RealityCheck
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 29, 2015
Hi Water_Prophet. :)
The powers that be have recognized the real issues and are taking appropriate steps.
Wind, solar, local power, reducing the 40% grid loss, and LEDs, electric cars, etc..

Blame it on the idea they will lose all that expensive beachland, or maybe even their dull, thick, money addled brains acknowledging that man-made climate change will not be pleasant and perhps not profitable.

In any case, the war is over.
Well observed, mate. I hope you and yours are keeping well? Good to hear from you again. Keep up the good work for the sake of science and humanity...and the planet and its other innocent denizens at risk because of human activity/emissions/greed/procrastination etc etc. Cheers. :)
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015
Our state of Queensland is now being pummeled by extremes of one sort or another practically every week and year-round. Unusual is a humongous understatement of the costs/heartache and rolling-disaster-hell which is developing in just that part of the globe. Get real/informed. :)

Well, it did not take you long to go from pure bullshit to shameless lies.
RealityCheck
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
Our state of Queensland is now being pummeled by extremes of one sort or another practically every week and year-round. Unusual is a humongous understatement of the costs/heartache and rolling-disaster-hell which is developing in just that part of the globe. Get real/informed. :)

Well, it did not take you long to go from pure bullshit to shameless lies.
Mate, look up recent years weather/climate pattern/extremes records and news reports; and do your own analysis of 'before and after' 1950's to present date. Not good for my fellow Australians up there (I live in New South Wales south coast, and patterns here are also obviously changed for the worse since 1950's). Unless you live it over decades, you are just posting smart-aleck ignoramus heckling posts of no use to either science or humanity. You also insult your (god-given, as you would say?) intellect/opportunities for doing more with your life than just being irrelevant heckler. :(
thermodynamics
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 29, 2015
RC: It is interesting to see the deniers like Anti getting more and more desperate as the effects of AGW become more and more clear. Notice he is not posting his cherry picked WoodForTrees curves. Also, notice how he has fallen back on his "conspiracy" of tens of thousands of scientists. He rants that the data don't show what he wants so the data MUST be falsified... Never mind that the adjustments in the data make the data-set less uncertain. Ask him to show us where the data have been "manipulated" instead of adjusted to make the data-sets more compatible (as you have already asked). Nothing but desperation in his rants.
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015
The only thing extreme coming out of Queensland is your bullshit and lies. Here, take your own advice and get informed.
http://www.qgso.q...c-02.pdf
jeffensley
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015

And again, it's not us 'controlling weather/climate', it's controlling ONLY OUR ADDITIONAL contributory causes/factors destabilizing previous prevailing climate/weather patterns. :)


I think that would be difficult if not impossible to quantify. We don't how far natural warming would go without additional influence so we can't really say whether attempting to regulate an atmospheric gas via taxes/regulations would have any measurable effect. If we can't measure it, how do we know how far to go with regulations? If we reduce emissions and temperatures continue to rise (which they will) what next?
RealityCheck
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 29, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
The only thing extreme coming out of Queensland is your bullshit and lies. Here, take your own advice and get informed.
http://www.qgso.q...c-02.pdf
Mate, that's TWO DECADES out of date! The trend since then has been worsening by the week! And that tourism-advertising-motto of "Beautiful one day, Perfect the next" for that 'old' Queensland has become a tragically sick joke now. Practically under attack by climate change related worsening patterns/distributions/extremes of storms, droughts, floods, cyclones and tropical storms, in one way or another, practically all year round. Which you would know if you actually look at up-to-date data/news (not aimed at 'attracting tourists' with out-dated claims of "Sunny Queensland" etc). You don't know the half of the 'rolling disaster' of climate/weather changes/patterns events my fellow Australians up there have been enduring since 1996!
RealityCheck
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 29, 2015
Hi jeffensley. :)

And again, it's not us 'controlling weather/climate', it's controlling ONLY OUR ADDITIONAL contributory causes/factors destabilizing previous prevailing climate/weather patterns. :)


I think that would be difficult if not impossible to quantify. We don't how far natural warming would go without additional influence so we can't really say whether attempting to regulate an atmospheric gas via taxes/regulations would have any measurable effect. If we can't measure it, how do we know how far to go with regulations? If we reduce emissions and temperatures continue to rise (which they will) what next?
All good, reasonable considerations...for those who have time/luxury for such things. But at this juncture, we have to make decisions based on best evidence/projections from what we do know and can measure. As to necessary actions/solutions, they are whatever we can do given tech/resources/will available. Procrastination is not an 'answer' anymore. :)
Jayded
4.4 / 5 (7) Nov 29, 2015
Hi RealityCheck, antigoracle is just a troll who thrives off counterpoint regardless of the topic. How they still allow such shameless sub iq thinkers on this site is astounding.
antigoracle
2.5 / 5 (8) Nov 30, 2015
which doesn't kill us or make life hell every day because of extreme climate/weather/storm/drought/flood pattern

Really!!! You're in hell and yet you choose to stay. Either you're stupid or believe liars deserve it. Have a look at the hellish forecast for the next 2 weeks.
http://www.timean...brisbane
DavidW
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 30, 2015
antigoracle, 2cents, stupt, etc, represent pure evil.

It's bad enough with babies washing up on the beach and billions of animals getting needlessly slaughtered every year. These lives don't have put up with the BS they spew.

Their actions are the worst of all, as they try to get people to live in lies.
They tell people who have sane thought based on mutually observed reality, they their thoughts are not sane. They work to create an environment that lacks the ability to discern right from wrong.

Then they go home and destroy the minds of everyone around them by pretending to live honestly, when in fact, they don't. All these people associated with them have to live in a lie.

People's minds break very easy this way. Truthful reality has been stolen from them. After all the 'how smart I am' out of them, they pretend they don't see the pain and suffering they cause.

Yes, they commit the worst evil of all. This really is what they do.
DavidW
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 30, 2015
Then, after they have forced everyone around them to live in lies, the minds start to resist. Yet, they keep it up, and some of these people end up committing suicide and other drastic things to get out of the pain. Then they say, "see I told you they were nuts'. When all along it was their fault for NOT putting the truth first and living honestly by stating to these people, "If I ever say anything to you that does not agree with life is most important in life then I have lied to you. You are truthfully most important". They don't uphold the importance of the truth here and as such, their is 0, nada, nothing, they have to provide. They come to take your sanity and promote the destruction of the healthy minds, so that healthy minds don't defend those that cannot defend themselves.

Yes, you have witness the greatest evil of all hidden in their choices and words. These are the people making all the other evil happen.
Shaco LePurp
2 / 5 (8) Nov 30, 2015
"Hi RealityCheck, antigoracle is just a troll who thrives off counterpoint regardless of the topic. How they still allow such shameless sub iq thinkers on this site is astounding."

Playing devils advocate is dumb now? Whether or not he believes what he's saying is irrelevant. It stirs debate and critical thought. It is you who killed free speech.
jeffensley
1.8 / 5 (5) Nov 30, 2015
All good, reasonable considerations...for those who have time/luxury for such things. But at this juncture, we have to make decisions based on best evidence/projections from what we do know and can measure. As to necessary actions/solutions, they are whatever we can do given tech/resources/will available. Procrastination is not an 'answer' anymore. :)


I personally believe the wholesale handover of control of CO2 emissions to governing agencies that tend to find ways to self-perpetuate and gain more power and are often corrupt is a far more dangerous proposition than taking our time trying to understand how things work. The free market is already guiding us toward renewable energy. How is that procrastinating?
Multivac jr_
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 30, 2015
Playing devils advocate is dumb now? Whether or not he believes what he's saying is irrelevant. It stirs debate and critical thought. It is you who killed free speech.


Not necessarily, but it's nearly always tedious.

And the only difference between *playing* Devil's Advocate and *being* the Devil is knowing when to quit.
RealityCheck
4.4 / 5 (7) Dec 01, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
which doesn't kill us or make life hell every day because of extreme climate/weather/storm/drought/flood pattern

Really!!! You're in hell and yet you choose to stay. Either you're stupid or believe liars deserve it. Have a look at the hellish forecast for the next 2 weeks.
http://www.timean...brisbane
Do you realize it's start of SUMMER season in Australia, one of the hottest continents?...but Brisbane temps in LOW 20's!

It's mainly due to unseasonal wind patterns bringing cool air too quickly to warm up on the way over ocean waters. A similar thing happened recently in Tasmania. Unseasonally cold winds/snow....because antarctic air-masses usually move slowly enough to warm up some over intervening ocean waters; but NOW moved so quickly it did not have time to warm as usual, so hit Tasmania HARD/FREEZING.

Do you understand?...CIRCULATION patterns/dynamics CHANGE/ACCELERATE with added heat/energy. Ok? :)
antigoracle
1.6 / 5 (7) Dec 01, 2015
Wow!! I thought you were just full of bullshit, but who woulda thunk that you had room for all these lies. Here are your own words - Our state of Queensland is now being pummeled by extremes of one sort or another practically every week and year-round.
Well, there is the 2 weeks of absolutely perfect weather, that's right smack in the middle of the average for this time of the year. So, instead of owning up, you make up some more bullshit lies.
RealityCheck
4.4 / 5 (7) Dec 01, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)

Wow!...whole two weeks! Decades ago, when Queensland Tourism Bureau used motto "Beautiful one day, Perfect the next" and Sunny Queensland", the weather/climate was good/great for MANY weeks/months on end! Now they're lucky if the chaotic transitional dynamics from previous prevailing conditions gives them a few weeks of reasonable weather when no-one is being flooded out, blown away, dried to the bone , lost crops etc, infected/infested by disease/insect pest etc due to warming. As for 'average', you don't realize that it's not only the temps, it's also frequent storm winds/rain/hail/cyclonic/unseasonal frosts and droughts (localised/regional) etc. Mate, you haven't been living with it for decades, so you have no idea other than 'strerile statistics' from your wiki without the reality on the ground there and all of OZ over the last few decades. Why waste your intellect/life in denial/procrastination when the reality is telling you straight? Wake up. :)
my2cts
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 02, 2015
antigoracle, 2cents, stupt, etc, represent pure evil.


Your twisted mind needs a scape goat apparently.
I think you are a threat to society and that the FBI should check your garage for fertlizer and arms.
You are not just stupid and deluded, you are a menace.
my2cts
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 02, 2015
Fundamentalists like DavidW should be kept in check.
He expresses pure hate speech no different from Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
He represents the IS from within.
my2cts
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 02, 2015
Did I say IS? I meant CS.
DavidW
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 02, 2015
my2cts,

You have, and continue to, attempt to set others up to fail by not acknowledging the truth and it's value to us all.Of all the times in your life that you have heard, "the truth matters", or "honesty counts", or "it's the very truth of the matter", etc., you don't appear to have ever chosen, of you own free will, to open a book up and read it on the importance of the truth. I say this because you seem to think you can live without ever touching the subject, as you have never once provided a foundation for your thoughts and words here for others to evaluate. That's shame you show, as we can see your ego and see no foundation for why you post here other than that.

I suggest you quit talking and start reading and learning about the truth. Something everyone that has ever cared about you told you!
antigoracle
1.6 / 5 (7) Dec 03, 2015
Here read about Queensland rainfall.
https://www.longp...rt-3.pdf
RealityCheck
4 / 5 (4) Dec 04, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
Here read about Queensland rainfall.
https://www.longp...rt-3.pdf
So? These reports 'averaging/dissecting' info/probabilities of rainfall only is what that department does for the farmers' projected sowing/cropping/investment/insurance etc decision-making needs. All 'drivers' taken into account have been known already. The patterns discernible in analysis and on-the-ground local/regional memory/knowledge base is also already allowed for. The NEW factors associated with AGW destabilization of previous range/patterns is NOW front-and-centre in most current assessments of rain spatio-temporal distribution/events patterns. Evolving on-the-ground evidence lately shows that the 'drivers/patterns' have been disturbed to produce record extreme droughts, rain events, wind/frost/pests/diseases etc occurrences/persistence previously unknown in many areas. It's not just 'rain', but distribution/timing. Duh. :)
antigoracle
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2015
That study found absolutely no anthropogenic link to Queensland rainfall so what a surprise you so easily dismiss it and spew more of your unsubstantiated hogwash. Why not provide a study to support your claims.
my2cts
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2015

I suggest you quit talking and start reading and learning about the truth. Something everyone that has ever cared about you told you!

Your hatred of science and scientists is a risk to civilisation.
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2015

I suggest you quit talking and start reading and learning about the truth. Something everyone that has ever cared about you told you!

Your hatred of science and scientists is a risk to civilisation.

Luckily for civilisation, your stupidity is only a risk to yourself.
RealityCheck
4 / 5 (4) Dec 05, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
That study found absolutely no anthropogenic link to Queensland rainfall so what a surprise you so easily dismiss it and spew more of your unsubstantiated hogwash. Why not provide a study to support your claims.
That report is designed to advise farmers etc of next year/near term rainfall, with only passing nods to the drivers and complications tp same which may affect longterm patterns. They always acknowledge error and unpredictability involved in such limited-purpose reports for farmers sowing/cropping etc in coming seasons. It is not an AGW report; it is a near-term/next season rain-advice report for farmers to use at their own risk of unpredictable factors/events intervening which make their 'averaging assumptions' based forecasts irrelevant if AGW DOES actually destabilize the system further both locally/regionally and globally....which the extant reality 'on the ground' over the past few years makes clear IS happening...

[cont...]
RealityCheck
4 / 5 (4) Dec 05, 2015
RealityCheck
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 05, 2015
[...cont] @antigoracle:

Victoria...
http://www.abc.ne.../6993464
http://www.abc.ne.../6993168

Tasmania...
http://www.abc.ne.../6994996
http://www.abc.ne.../6999570

Add to these, earlier unseasonal occurrences of Cyclones/Tropical storms in June/July months, especially TWO unseasonal such in/near Queensland within a couple of weeks, and also unusual cyclonic/wind/rain/heat patterns in WA, Northern Territory, and you'll get the picture that no study is needed because of the almost weekly/monthly weather/climate news of BROKEN RECORDS and frequent occurrences of previously '100-year-plus events'. :)

+Wider-afield RECORD flood/droughts around globe NOW (Northern England/India etc). Get it? :)
antigoracle
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 05, 2015
November–April, during which Queensland receives 80 per cent of its annual rain, shows sustained periods of flood (e.g. 1950–1958, 1971–1978) and drought (e.g. 1929–1935, 1981–1988) years

What an absolute joke you are. Presented to you is a comprehensive SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS, using data spanning over a century and it finds absolutely NO SIGN OF AGW for the entire period that AGW is supposed to have happened. Instead you plead your case with a few links to sensationalized weather news stories. One of them actually claims SNOWFALL that was last seen in the 1950s, which corresponds to the last global cooling cycle. Can you say global warming PAUSE. Now go get your reality checked i.e. grow a brain, and come back with some scientific evidence rather than your hogwash.
RealityCheck
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 06, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)

You're missing all points. :)

Of course past patterns involving el nino, monsoon etc etc patterns/drivers produced the old patterns/frequency/severity of floods/droughts. No-one's disputing that. It's NOW the NEW pattern/frequency/severity being observed/recorded by these last decade's worth of observations/reports 'on the ground'. :)

New data/reality supercede previous 'averaged' studies/reports. That is point one!

New events have been INCREASINGLY UNSEASONAL. That is point two!

They have been MORE FREQUENT. That is point three!

They have also been MORE EXTENSIVE and MORE CONVERGENT, such that NOW the 'assaults' come variably and incessantly; costing more than ever, as recovery periods are shorter, events more unpredictable than ever. That is point four!

Just because Queensland receives most its rain in that period, it doesn't mean MORE/SEVERE/FREQUENT events don't happen NOW to provide same and MORE. That's point five!

Got it all now? :)
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Dec 07, 2015
You truly believe in your lies, don't you.
Tell us, when did this NEW pattern begin?
RealityCheck
5 / 5 (2) Dec 07, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)
You truly believe in your lies, don't you. Tell us, when did this NEW pattern begin?
Your tactic of making obviously false accusations about me/the facts I present for your edification is all you have left to cover your failure?

Mate, even as we speak, North-Western England is experiencing unprecedented rain event/flooding. Local commentators note:
It's like all the lesser floods of the last decade have come all at once!
...and...
The houses which had been previously repaired are now again ruined.
Add all the other disastrously unprecedented events in India/central america etc etc, and you get what I was trying to point out to you about unprecedented unceasing/relentless damage/costs where recovery period is less and less. If you don't even understand the reported/recorded unfolding unprecedented reality around you as we speak, then what hope is there for your propaganda being anywhere credible to even the most gullible now? Learn, mate. :)
RealityCheck
5 / 5 (1) Dec 07, 2015
Duplicate post removed, Thanks.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (4) Dec 07, 2015
As soon as I unravel one of your lies you so easily spew another. Now stop spreading your lies all over the world and stick to your own backyard. Tell me when did this NEW pattern emerge in Queensland?
RealityCheck
5 / 5 (2) Dec 08, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)

So now it's accusations of "lies" tactic, is it? What happened to "hogwash" tactic...all washed up? Mate, you really should get out more and take note what's happening around the globe before you come back with usual lame/obvious 'denialist' tactics which bear no resemblance to extant reality playing out across the globe as we speak. Did you bother to check the situation I alluded to in Northern England (and Scotland, Ireland etc etc)? The 'sum' of last decadal series of major floods repeated 'all together' over those few hours! It's similar across many parts of globe over past few weeks. Check it out before you come back with lame ignorance/stupidity as basis for your denial tactics. And 'new pattern' has many/varied 'beginnings' here/there, as chaotic step 'incremental process' became obviously/unambiguously discernible when local weather/climate extremes/changes became persistently/unseasonal etc, as it now is to everyone but deniers. Learn, mate. :)
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Dec 08, 2015
We were discussing Queensland, where you claimed to be witnessing AGW first hand. We'll discuss the rest of the globe when this conversation ends. Now, I presented you a scientific analysis of data for the last century that confirmed Queensland's weather showed absolutely no sign of AGW. You claimed that the NEW pattern did. So, once again, when did this NEW PATTERN start?
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Dec 09, 2015
Decades ago, when Queensland Tourism Bureau used motto "Beautiful one day, Perfect the next" and Sunny Queensland", the weather/climate was good/great for MANY weeks/months on end!

Really, decades ago eh! Pray tell, when was this?
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Dec 10, 2015
So now it's accusations of "lies" tactic, is it?

Spoken like a true liar. Please see my last 2 posts for confirmation.
RealityCheck
5 / 5 (3) Dec 13, 2015
Hi antigoracle. :)

We were discussing anthropogenic GLOBAL warming effects around the world right now, as we speak. Queensland is only a part of what's happening world-wide due to unseasonal/extreme/widespread events involving droughts/floods/insect/algal/doisease and cropping/infrastructure costs which is increasingly unable to be recovered from in time before the next disaster hits. The greater confluence of the greater frequency of events means previously localized/expected events/costs have blown out of the formerly easily-affordable/predictable/adaptable range. That you keep pretending to be 'discussing' anything is a joke made more sick by real events around the world affecting billions of people NOW.

Anyhow, you've lost. The world is finally moving on the evidence which can no longer be denied or misrepresented by troll factory stooges in the pay of the fossil/nuclear/GOP lobbies who have delayed needed climate action for decades. You've just lost your job! :)

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