Senate rejects GOP bid to overturn Internet rules

Repubs see the Internet as a spy network and toll highway where each packet is inspected for extortion potential. Perhaps it was once the party of opportunity but now it's the party of opportunism.

Repubs see the Internet as a spy network and toll highway where each packet is inspected for extortion potential. Perhaps it was once the party of opportunity but now it's the party of opportunism.

By your own admission, you don't even live in the U.S. So, you might want to consider that we're just not all that interested in your opinion of our political parties. As amusingly quaint as it is...

By your own admission, you don't even live in the U.S. So, you might want to consider that we're just not all that interested in your opinion of our political parties. As amusingly quaint as it is...

The Bank of England also isn't in the US. But you seem interested in delivering half your life's wages to them in the form of taxes to simply pay interest on the debt you inherited from your parents. Of course they have little interest in you, rightly so.

English courts aren't in the USA. But you certify all your attorneys in the USA through the BAR, which is located in the Inner City of London. You use the English court system because you lost your American Revolution, and let the Red Shield banksters run your FED.

Moreover, torries and fascists are a disease that can form epidemics anywhere. Much better to nip it in the bud where it manifests with reason than resorting to heating your rear end up to 10,000 degrees with nukes. The world isn't that big anymore

kochevnik, well said, don't listen to this Nerdyguy, he sounds arrogant. Your summary of the republicon party is spot on, if a little too nice.

@eyeyamtheufo We have rednecks in Russia too. Many drive the infamous Volga autos, which are overweight and underpowered with a Harley-inspired exhaust system, which empowers them even while Mercs and Bumers (BMWs) sail by.

By your own admission, you don't even live in the U.S. So, you might want to consider that we're just not all that interested in your opinion of our political parties. As amusingly quaint as it is...

The Bank of England also isn't in the US. But you seem interested in delivering half your life's wages to them in the form of taxes to .....
Moreover, torries and fascists are a disease that can form epidemics anywhere. Much better to nip it in the bud where it manifests with reason than resorting to heating your rear end up to 10,000 degrees with nukes. The world isn't that big anymore

You really like to see yourself in print don't you?

So, what in the name of all that is holy did this rambling rant have to do with a) this article? or b) anything at all that's worth knowing?

kochevnik, well said, don't listen to this Nerdyguy, he sounds arrogant. Your summary of the republicon party is spot on, if a little too nice.

Hey friend, just a heads up. I've certainly been called arrogant before. But this doofus boy known as Kochevnik is a communist AND terrorist sympathizers who gets his jollies by getting on PhysOrg and ripping into America at every chance.

So, if you're American, you might want to check some of his other nasty posts. If you're not, you might want to do it anyway. By and large rambling, senseless, illogical rants filled with hate speech towards the U.S.

Yeah, he's a winner.

The internet has become valuable. Therefore, large corporations are trying to own it.

It was invented by DARPA, however, with public funds. It belongs to the people.

"But this doofus boy known as Kochevnik is a communist AND terrorist sympathizers who gets his jollies by getting on PhysOrg and ripping into America at every chance." - NerdBoy

I commend him for doing so.

"It was invented by DARPA, however, with public funds. It belongs to the people." - Socean

That is what they said about the radio spectrum until it was Sold by Corrupt, Vile Conservatives to their Corporate Buddies.

"It was invented by DARPA, however, with public funds. It belongs to the people." - Socean

Computer networking was pioneered in the U.K. adopted by DARPA and opened to the public by AL Gore.

Nerdyguy

kochevnik, well said, don't listen to this Nerdyguy, he sounds arrogant. Your summary of the republicon party is spot on, if a little too nice.

Hey friend, just a heads up. I've certainly been called arrogant before. But this doofus boy known as Kochevnik is a communist AND terrorist sympathizers who gets his jollies by getting on PhysOrg and ripping into America at every chance.

So, if you're American, you might want to check some of his other nasty posts. If you're not, you might want to do it anyway. By and large rambling, senseless, illogical rants filled with hate speech towards the U.S.

Yeah, he's a winner.

Fallacy. Ad hominem.

Repubs see the Internet as a spy network and toll highway where each packet is inspected for extortion potential. Perhaps it was once the party of opportunity but now it's the party of opportunism.

By your own admission, you don't even live in the U.S. So, you might want to consider that we're just not all that interested in your opinion of our political parties. As amusingly quaint as it is...

We, the foreigners, will gladly refrain from intervening in your politics and internal affairs if, in return, you promise to do so yourselves. Imagine putting an end to all US wars and regime changes across the world, dismantling the 100 of military basis that are nothing but an intervention in the internal affairs of other countries. So show us your good will and we give you our word that we will stop expressing an opinion on your political life.

We, the foreigners, will gladly refrain from intervening in your politics and internal affairs if, in return, you promise to do so yourselves. Imagine putting an end to all US wars and regime changes across the world, dismantling the 100 of military basis that are nothing but an intervention in the internal affairs of other countries. So show us your good will and we give you our word that we will stop expressing an opinion on your political life.

Cry me a river.

Maybe if half of the world could figure out how to manage its own affairs one-tenth as well as the U.S., you wouldn't come begging at our doorstep.

It's so funny to see the Marxist loons come out of the woodword whining about how awful America is. Get a clue.

It's so funny to see the Marxist loons come out of the woodword whining about how awful America is. Get a clue.

Actually communism is an American invention. http://thenewamer...ucation-

Maybe if half of the world could figure out how to manage its own affairs one-tenth as well as the U.S., you wouldn't come begging at our doorstep.

you mean if half the world was borrowing trillions of dollars from China to live well above their means, we would have a better world? It's simple, China is left with no more money to lend to other countries after the US helps itself. So, no I would not want my country to follow your system...By the way it is the US that is imposing, by force, its own system on other countries. But you would know that if you were informed.

Fallacy. Ad hominem.

Fallacy? Which part? It's 100% accurate. Hell, I don't even think he denies any of it.

It's so funny to see the Marxist loons come out of the woodword whining about how awful America is. Get a clue.

Actually communism is an American invention. http://thenewamer...ucation-

Problem is, you don't even read the lunacy you post. Here's what it ACTUALLY SAYS:

"Communism as an economic and political philosophy was created by Robert Owen (1771-1858), a British manufacturer,..."

Problem is, you don't even read the lunacy you post. Here's what it ACTUALLY SAYS:

"In 1825, Robert Owen came to America to establish his communist colony at New Harmony, Indiana." - Reading skills, please...

If it's lunacy, then prove it wrong. Oh that's right, it's lunacy because Nerdyguy says so. Very scientific.

Why shouldn't we let corporate power control the internet? If the internet is free, then everyone and their uncle can scream every time there is an injustice and everyone will be able to hear it. With corporate control in place we could be told we're happy and to shop more. Then we can avoid all of those bothersome justice issues and become wage slaves to the oligarchs. I am a proud American and I still don't like the Fascistic tendencies taking hold of our lives and our government.

"Maybe if half of the world could figure out how to manage its own affairs one-tenth as well as the U.S., you wouldn't come begging at our doorstep. " - NergGuy

Laughably, NerdGuy hold's a view that is absolutely typical of American Republicans.

Republicans don't live in a "reality based community". They live in a land of fantasy filled with Ghosts and Angels, where Abortions must be illegal, but murdering children in Iraq and Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Korea, etc. are heroism, and of course where Men walked with dinosaurs, Global Warming is a Faud, and Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice.

Unless of course, you question the validity of the Republican Fantasy, at which point you are an enemy of the State and worthy only of receiving unmitigated vengeance.

When whining about their current "illegal alien" president - whom they often refer to as "Barry" in order to avoid accepting his legitimacy as President - American Conservatives will claim that America cont...

America is a bankrupt, diseased nation with a failed educational system, a failed banking system, a failed political system, that is corrupt to it's core.

But when these statements are echoed by non-Americans, then their claim is that America is an outstanding nation, well run, strong, economically powerful and the jewel of Intellectualism.

Meanwhile, back here in reality land, we all know that due to American Republicanism and Libertarianism, America is Morally, Ethically, Fiscally, and Intellectually bankrupt nation that has no future.

"By the way it is the US that is imposing, by force, its own system on other countries. But you would know that if you were informed." - ESPI00

Yes, but you don't understand. He believes that America has the God Given right to impose it's ignorance and endemic corruption on the rest of the world.

It is their "Manifest Destiny". Their term. Not mine.

America is a bankrupt, diseased nation with a failed educational system, a failed banking system, a failed political system, that is corrupt to it's core.

unfortunately so is Europe, Asia, and Africa as well.

http://www.efsf.e...ndex.htm

How in the world is portugal ever going to cough up 2.5 billion in 5 years and another 4 billion after the next 5 years?

Guaranteed bailout, twice.

maybe i am misunderstanding this, but i am still trying to figure all this stuff out.

Maybe if half of the world could figure out how to manage its own affairs one-tenth as well as the U.S., you wouldn't come begging at our doorstep.

you mean if half the world was borrowing trillions of dollars from China to live well above their means, we would have a better world? It's simple, China is left with no more money to lend to other countries after the US helps itself. So, no I would not want my country to follow your system...By the way it is the US that is imposing, by force, its own system on other countries. But you would know that if you were informed.

NO, I mean that while many around the globe like to bitch and moan about the U.S. and take pure delight in the troubles of the greatest nation on earth, that sure doesn't stop most of them from coming to the U.S. for aid, military assistance, charity, education through our universities, and the list goes on.

I cancelled on-line Neflix as I had to pay more for internet service.

America is a bankrupt, diseased nation with a failed educational system, a failed banking system, a failed political system, that is corrupt to it's core.

Yes, because they are all govt controlled.

If it's lunacy, then prove it wrong.

Just to be clear on this, you removed the portion of the text that said he was a "British Manufacturer" so you could make yourself look better. Who cares to which nation he moved? If he was born in Brazil, and came up with the notion of Communism, and later moved to France, would you call Communism a French invention? Of course not.

Fact is, per your claim, Robert Owen was a British manufacturer who came up with the notion of a "commune". Not Communism as a political ideology. Which makes the article you showed somewhat misleading.

For example, from Wiki:
In 1919, the Bolshevik government in Russia organised the creation of an international communist organisation that would act as the Third International after the collapse of the Second International in 1916 - this was known as the Communist International, although was commonly abbreviated as Comintern.

In any case, it's a history lesson, and irrelevant at this point.

America is a bankrupt, diseased nation with a failed educational system, a failed banking system, a failed political system, that is corrupt to it's core.

But when these statements are echoed by non-Americans, then their claim is that America is an outstanding nation, well run, strong, economically powerful and the jewel of Intellectualism...

You are welcome to your despicable, hate-filled opinions. I would ask only that, as in your other posts above, you would not put words into other's mouths. Do not attribute to me anything that I've not said specifically. That's just fabrication.

Meanwhile, those of us in this nation will bask in both the hatred and the envy of the world, and will just chuckle at your stupidity and get back to work.

All countries, all governments, so some things well and some things poorly. But, we all know that the U.S. represents much of what is best in the world.

Has VD admitted to his socialist country of residence?
Of course any such admission is subject to his credibility rating, which is quite low.

Has VD admitted to his socialist country of residence?
Of course any such admission is subject to his credibility rating, which is quite low.

His profile says New York.

It also says "the only good Republican is a dead Republican." Difficult to believe a foreigner could generate that much textbook-psychotic hatred for a political party in another country, but who knows. Because...

He also occasionally references his "socialist nation".

He's one of the serious psycho trolls though, and I very much doubt anyone believes any of his pathetic schtick. With the possible exception of one or two others who spew almost the identical venom as him. Could very well be him under more than one identity.

NO, I mean that while many around the globe like to bitch and moan about the U.S. and take pure delight in the troubles of the greatest nation on earth, that sure doesn't stop most of them from coming to the U.S. for aid, military assistance, charity, education through our universities, and the list goes on.

you mean the aid, military assistance, charity...you showed the Iraqi people and more recently Libyans? In fact America's generosity is well known in other countries but it is also known that it is based on the looting principle.
Please don't help my country.

NO, I mean that while many around the globe like to bitch and moan about the U.S. and take pure delight in the troubles of the greatest nation on earth, that sure doesn't stop most of them from coming to the U.S. for aid, military assistance, charity, education through our universities, and the list goes on.

you mean the aid, military assistance, charity...you showed the Iraqi people and more recently Libyans? In fact America's generosity is well known in other countries but it is also known that it is based on the looting principle.
Please don't help my country.

Don't worry, Obama won't. He refuses to support an oil pipeline to the US from Canada. Canada will have to sell their oil to China.

"How in the world is portugal ever going to cough up 2.5 billion in 5 years and another 4 billion after the next 5 years?" - Kaas

They do have a population of 10 million. $300 a head gives you 2 billion Euro's. Over 5 years that is $60 per year.

I fail to see the problem.

"that sure doesn't stop most of them from coming to the U.S. for aid, military assistance, charity, education through our universities, and the list goes on." - NerdGuy

That is the La-La-Land ConservaTard view of the world. In reality America is the generous nation on earth. Providing the smallest fraction of it's GDP - almost nothing - to aid programs.

And as to America's foreign aid programs... The Gates Foundation does more.

America's foreign aid comes typically in the form of subsidies for the purchase of American made weapons, which of course is nothing more than a welfare program for the American Military Industrial Complex.

What a filthy, filthy nation.

"Canada will have to sell their oil to China." - RyggTard

Unfortunately for Canadians that will be unlikely, since the movement of the oil would pose problems and additional costs.

But you are right RyggTard. Canadians should divest themselves as much as possible from the Dying American State. The faster the better as America will most probably not exist as a nation by the end of the decade.

"Could very well be him under more than one identity. " - NerdGuy

The Conservative NerdGuy can't accept the reality of his own nation and rather than challenge his fantasy land Republican Ideology he seeks to avoid the subject at all costs.

"Who is this bas*ard who dares challenge my world view?" - NerdGuy

"Of course any such admission is subject to his credibility rating, which is quite low." - RyggTard

Wow. False accusations coming from a congenital Libertarian/Randite liar.

I'm shocked.

NOT.

"I cancelled on-line Neflix as I had to pay more for internet service." - RyggTard

And thanks to American Corporate Greed, you are still paying five times as much as they do in the Pacific Rim, and get substantially worse service.

It's the American Capitalist's way....

http://cache.gawk.../raw.jpg

"Yes, because they are all govt controlled." - RyggTard

As is every other nation on Earth.

So why is America a Morally, Ethically, Fiscally, and Intellectually bankrupt nation that has no future. When this is not so for all of the other nations that are Governed?

The answer to that question is self evident.

America has been destroyed by 40 years of Borrow and spend Republicanism, and Libertarian/Randite ideologies that have, and continue to engage in the destruction of their own state.

The process has been a simple one. Destroy a program through underfunding, or purposeful mismanagement, and then when the program fails, claim that the private sector can do better and give the program away.

It is a massive transfer of wealth from the people (Government) to Corporations.

Some dare call it treason.

"Meanwhile, those of us in this nation will bask in both the hatred and the envy of the world, and will just chuckle at your stupidity and get back to work." = NerdGuy

Envy? Ahahahahahaha... That claim alone shows how Completely Delusional American Republicans are.

"All countries, all governments, so some things well and some things poorly" - NerdGuy

And other than murdering people... What does America do well?

Answer...

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

The disease in the US is socialism launched over 100 years ago. Both parties have been active participants as it increases the power of the state and hence the power of the politician and parties of the state at the expense of the individual.
There is a glimmer of hope in 2012 as there are a few candidates that are not socialists and they are being systematically attacked by members of both parties.
Like Gutenberg's press, the internet will aid in reducing the power of the state as we are now witnessing.

Republicans argued that "net neutrality" rules announced by the Federal Communications Commission last December were another example of federal regulatory overreach that would stifle Internet investment and innovation.

I wonder if the republicans can only see 'innovation' potential in the rich and established, ones that will give the most earnings growth in the coming fiscal quarters, at the expense of the lowly up-and-comings who should be squashed at all costs.

If you want to 'invest' in it, invest in everybody, not just a few. Absolute fools.

"The disease in the US is socialism launched over 100 years ago. Both parties have been active participants" - RyggTard

Those damn Republican Socialists.

What America needs is corporate control of it's air and it's water. Corporate ownership of the rain and sunshine.

America needs monopolistic corporate control of it's food supply, it's energy supplies, and of the news media.

Only then will Libertarians have succeeded and Americans will be truly free.

"Like Gutenberg's press, the internet will aid in reducing the power of the state as we are now witnessing." - RyggTard

It's so funny watching a Libertarian/Randite championing a creation of the state - the internet - that was opened to public access by UberLiberal - Al Gore - as the last, best hope for their anti-government - anti-people campaign of free market lunacy.

RyggTard's hopes lie with the election of Libertarian Loon, Ron Paul who has promised to enact economic policies in his first year in office that will increase the U.S. unemployment rate to 40 percent while at the same time increasing the Budget Deficit by a half trillion dollars.

Such is the depth of Libertarian/Randite Stupidity.

I wonder if the republicans can only see 'innovation' potential in the rich and established,

The democrat socialists only see innovation in companies that fund their campaigns: GE, Solyndra, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, BP,....

"The democrat socialists only see innovation in companies" - RyggTard

When RyggTard opens it's mouth all manner of lies are uttered.

The fact is, innovation rarely comes from industry. Industrial innovation is typically of the lowest form - selecting which color to make a cup, or how to change the shape of a cereal box to provide less product to the consumer, how to change a product design to make the product serviceable, etc.

True innovation typically comes from Government funded science.

RyggTard can't comprehend that fact.

Like all Libertarian/Randites he lives in a ConservaTard Fantasy Land that is almost entirely detached from reality.

That is why he is so frequently caught lying.

How much govt funding did Steve Jobs or JD Rockefeller receive to fund their innovations?

"Internet keeps government honest: Google chief"
http://www.physor...firstCmt
Just like Gutenberg and Luther over 500 years ago

"How much govt funding did Steve Jobs or JD Rockefeller receive to fund their innovations?" - RyggTard

Jobs produced no innovation. The MAC user interface was produced by government funded computer scientists.

The underlying MAC OS is now based on Mach, which was developed in a government funded computer science lab as an object oriented version of Unix.

Unix was created by a government sanctioned monopoly AT&T.

Apple's only real innovation over the last 20 years has been the introduction of a round button to control existing MP3 players, and the establishment of a successful pay to download service that locks apple product owners into a system where they can only purchase media for those products from a single monopolistic vendor - Apple.

"Just like Gutenberg and Luther over 500 years ago" - RyggTard

If the printing press has kept government honest, then why did America suffer through the most dishonest president and government in history when it twice elected Conservative George Bush Jr. president?

Clearly there must be some segment of the U.S. population that enjoys being lied to. The Conservative Republican/Libertarian/Randite segment.

I prefer honesty and reality.

Fallacy. Ad hominem.

Fallacy? Which part? It's 100% accurate. Hell, I don't even think he denies any of it.

The part where your opinion, accurate or not, of his political stance invalidates his valid comment on Republicans.

Is this Nerdyguy for real or is he just trolling around?
I mean, it's hard to believe that someone who would come here (physorg)- so one would assume he is at least a bit well informed and read, can be so absurdly delusional about the world...
He almost comes across as a comic stereotype character of a book-case-Fox-brainwashed-delusional-conservative.

Now, @Nerdyguy, if you truly believe the things you wrote here, please, pleeeease, try to turn off your TV and educate yourself. I am not a democrat, or libertarian or a communist or anything of the sort but I must say, your vision of the world and USA is seriously distorted and delusional, it seems that you have bought into every lie that has been pushed down your throat and it would do you great good to educate yourself with the actual facts of USA and world economy and politics...

"Is this Nerdyguy for real or is he just trolling around?" - Tom

Oh, he is real. In fact for an American Republican he is remarkably reasonable. But as you observe, that isn't saying much.

American Republicans do not live in a reality based world. They live in a land of angels, and ghosts, aliens, and conspiracies. A land where Saddam had WMD, and their own President is an Illegal Alien, and most of all, a land where reducing taxes magically increases government revenues and the deficits that really result from those tax cuts, are all the fault of the Democrats.

@ryggesogn2 Canada will have to sell their oil to China.

Why shouldn't China get first dibs on the oil? After all, they actually MAKE THINGS. Useful things instead not wars, debt, and ponzi schemes triggering worldwide depressions.

@Nerdyguy Maybe if half of the world could figure out how to manage its own affairs one-tenth as well as the U.S., you wouldn't come begging at our doorstep.

US does not have any more control of world affairs. It is a nation that is being disliked and considered a pauper. It is becoming more uneducated and lacks any sense of purpose. Washington is dysfunctional and many states are broke. Russia and China do not give a damn about what US says and it is increasingly becoming an irrelevant nation in the world. World does not want to rely on US any more. Many US industries are unable to compete globally. Leaders use their power to violate every law on books. That's what happens in a dictatorship no longer a role model for democracy.

Kochevnik sees very clearly.

I commend him.

It is a nation that is being disliked and considered a pauper

But they still buy our debt and use our dollars.
If you owe the bank $100K, the bank own you. If you owe the bank $100billion, you own the bank. How is the Euro doing these days?

Washington is dysfunctional and many states are broke

Yep, thanks to socialist policies.

Many US industries are unable to compete globally.

Agriculture is doing quite well. The US exports food, like pecans and pork and beef and ... to all parts of the world.

Leaders use their power to violate every law on books.

And that doesn't happen in Russia or China or any other socialist state?

"Last year, the medical technology firm Numira Biosciences packed its bags and left Irvine for Salt Lake City. When asked about the firm's departure, its chief executive praised Utah's quality of life but also blamed California's business environment for the move. "The tipping point was when someone from the Orange County tax [assessor] wanted to see our facility to tax every piece of equipment I had," Michael Beeuwsaert told the Orange County Register."
"While there are many reasons for these troubling trends, the state cannot ignore the role its policies have played in the economic decline. For seven consecutive years, executives polled by Chief Executive magazine have ranked California as having the worst business environment in the country. "
"California's suffocating regulations have a lot to do with this discontent." {aka Socialism}
http://www.latime...51.story

What I don't understand about the republican party and everyone who claims to be a hardcore right wing (nutcase) is that they always rip on the "Socialists" and the welfare receiving moochers of our country and they claim to know whats best for the public while democrats are somehow out to exploit you for their own gains.

And yet, oil and defense companies get public money and subsidies even though the public would rather see their money going to green tech. I think the repubs think they can do what they want and just plain make up excuses. Like making the internet work for them and saying it will be better for you. Well I don't care for most mainstream web content and the small part that I do care about is fast enough as it is, why do the big guys need premium speed especially when they already control large amounts of web traffic?

Seems like a way for the ruling elite to consolidate their hold on the free flow of information so they can restrict and control it all.

I know it's off topic at this point but my idea of a perfect world is everyone doing the jobs that they like and everyone being so interconnected through information systems infrastructure that we can start solving all the worlds problems ourselves.

For example, I am a woodworker. I make a product and have waste in the form of sawdust. I sell the product and use a small amount of the overall profit to turn my waste into a useable product that I can also sell to increase profit and benefit the interconnected economy. So Joe Smith contacts me on my blog and notices my excess sawdust problem, he has a way to turn the sawdust into biofuel or knows how do design a machine to compress the sawdust into bricks for home heating uses. Or hell Bill Johnson from a university tells me that if I pee on the sawdust it will break down faster and then I can add some green compost to it to make it a high quality fertilizer.

The point is if I can't share my info freely im never going to get ahead.

oil and defense companies get public money and subsidies even though the public would rather see their money going to green tech.

1. There is a constitutional reqt for national defense.
2. I am all for ending every govt subsidy on every commodity. But it is truly the socialists who support such subsidy.
3. If the public really supported green tech why don't they spend their own money?

I sell the product

Why? Are you greedy?

And you do know that the govt rakes in $billions in taxes from oil leases and fuel taxes. Do you support eliminating such taxes along with any subsidy?

NO, I mean that while many around the globe like to bitch and moan about the U.S. and take pure delight in the troubles of the greatest nation on earth, that sure doesn't stop most of them from coming to the U.S. for aid, military assistance, charity, education through our universities, and the list goes on.

you mean the aid, military assistance, charity...you showed the Iraqi people and more recently Libyans? In fact America's generosity is well known in other countries but it is also known that it is based on the looting principle.
Please don't help my country.

Just a thought...perhaps you could put on some big-boy pants, quit hiding behind your anonymity, tell us precisely which country that may be, and we can waste some precious time debasing your nation. Or, not. Either way.

And yet, oil and defense companies get public money and subsidies even though the public would rather see their money going to green tech.

In your opinion.

I think the repubs think they can do what they want and just plain make up excuses.

So, you're saying that essentially one-half our Congress is retarded, and the other half if composed of enlightened geniuses. Brilliant conclusion. Clearly unbiased.

The point is if I can't share my info freely im never going to get ahead.

Who is stopping you?
Or you can expand your business like many have and increase your product line. That's what JD Rockefeller did with his oil business.

"Is this Nerdyguy for real or is he just trolling around?" - Tom

Oh, he is real. In fact for an American Republican he is remarkably reasonable. But as you observe, that isn't saying much.

American Republicans do not live in a reality based world. They live in a land of angels, and ghosts, aliens, and conspiracies. A land where Saddam had WMD, and their own President is an Illegal Alien, and most of all, a land where reducing taxes magically increases government revenues and the deficits that really result from those tax cuts, are all the fault of the Democrats.

Not a Republican. Next idiotic statement. Can you use any facts at all? Ever?

Is this Nerdyguy for real or is he just trolling around?
I mean, it's hard to believe that someone who would come here (physorg)- so one would assume he is at least a bit well informed and read, can be so absurdly delusional about the world...

By delusional, you mean, someone who doesn't share your point of view. Perhaps you should look up the word sometime.

It's so funny to see the Marxist loons come out of the woodword whining about how awful America is. Get a clue.

Actually communism is an American invention. http://thenewamer...ucation-

"Communism as an economic and political philosophy was created by Robert Owen (1771-1858), a British manufacturer, who believed that all of man's ills were caused by religion."

-Well he was right you know.

But it is hard to believe that communism could have been conceived without the industrial revolution and resulting exploitation of the working class. Besides, all the major political systems were originated by the greeks and tested out in the city-states. Nothing new under the sun.

He almost comes across as a comic stereotype character of a book-case-Fox-brainwashed-delusional-conservative.

Ironic, isn't it, that I'm frequently criticized in this forum by many for being too liberal. I've clearly hit just the right note.

you have bought into every lie that has been pushed down your throat and it would do you great good to educate yourself with the actual facts of USA and world economy and politics...

Thank you for your input. Perhaps, what might be slightly more useful than your inane attempt at slander would be an actual suggestion, even just a teeny hint at WHERE my posts were factually incorrect.

Your problem, sir, is your belief that education = a particular set of values and that intelligence = agreement with your views. You are wrong on both counts. I won't bore you with my extensive educational and -- far more relevant -- real-life accomplishments. Rather, I would ask that you say something intelligent yourself.

The part where your opinion, accurate or not, of his political stance invalidates his valid comment on Republicans.

livan

Well, well, your ideological imperative betrays your lack of common sense. Foaming-at-the-mouth hatred does not equal valid commentary on any front.

Further, in your rush to scream "foul", you not only misread, but entirely failed to read, my post. I was not commenting on anything he said about Republicans.

I was defending this great nation of mine to a person who is so overcome with blind hatred for what he will never have -- sometimes called "envy" -- that he fills page after page of PhysOrg comments with the "death to America" rant so familiar to the ill-informed hate mongers among us. If you were not familiar with his long-standing hatred, you are not to be blamed. But, neither should you blame me for calling "foul"

US does not have any more control of world affairs.

You might want to let the rest of the world in on that fact. And don't let your fervent wishes interfere with actual reality.

It is a nation that is being disliked

By some. Nothing new there.

and considered a pauper.

Someone forgot to mention this to the U.S. Last I checked, ours was the largest economy in the world. Any fact checking in your nonsense?

It is becoming more uneducated and lacks any sense of purpose.

More preposterous nonsense.

Why shouldn't China get first dibs on the oil? After all, they actually MAKE THINGS. Useful things instead not wars, debt, and ponzi schemes triggering worldwide depressions.

Give them time. Theyre already learning how to use melamine in creative ways. And theyre very clever with monetary manipulation too dont you think?

Hey this is encouraging:
"Best Buddies: Canadas Stephen Harper has quietly turned into one of Israels strongest international supporters."

Perhaps Bibi needs more uranium?
http://www.forwar...diwuIc7u

-Maybe the 2 of them will take on Iran. Dogsleds with Vulcan cannons eh?
http://www.youtub...=related

Ow my eye-

Washington is dysfunctional and many states are broke.

Yes, the world economy is in a tough situation. It's to be expected that the largest economy would take its fair share of damage.

Russia and China do not give a damn about what US says

Really? You mean those two countries that were considered to be America's enemy #1 and #2 up until the recent period of detente and cooperation? Please point out to me at what point we were able to count on their support? This is business as usual.

and it is increasingly becoming an irrelevant nation in the world.

LOL, you've really let your inner troll loose on this rant! Good job!

World does not want to rely on US any more.

If only we could be so lucky.

Many US industries are unable to compete globally.

Yes, we apologize for not doing everything right.

It is difficult to believe that any person, having reached the age of majority in any country that offers even a modicum of public education, would find it tenable to hold the view that any single political party might hold all the solutions to what ails us; and, further, that all other political parties, organizations, and viewpoints are without merit.

Clearly, a variety of complex factors determine our views on the issues of the day. But, I find it unfathomable that anyone who has dealt at even the local political level could truly believe that one system, one ideology, one party, one set of political beliefs is right and all others are wrong.

It is a sad day in America, and indeed for the world, when adults can not think for themselves instead of following a predetermined checklist with nicely-designed boxes for "friend" and "foe". This is not wisdom. It is blind faith in ideology. And it is on par with blind faith in religion, and has just as much basis in reality.

Nerdyguy
Foaming-at-the-mouth hatred does not equal valid commentary on any front.

I, and a few others, saw no such foam. Hatred? Maybe, but no less than yours.

Nerdyguy
Further, in your rush to scream "foul", you not only misread, but entirely failed to read, my post. I was not commenting on anything he said about Republicans.

Isn't that the point? He was commenting on Republicans. You were commenting on him.

Nerdyguy
I was defending this great nation of mine to a person who is so overcome with blind hatred for what he will never have -- sometimes called "envy" -- that he fills page after page of PhysOrg comments with the "death to America" rant so familiar to the ill-informed hate mongers among us.

A very emotional comment, that means nothing.

Hatred? Maybe, but no less than yours.

It's amusing that your only argument in response to my claims of hate-mongering is to say that yes, there was hatred but "no less than yours". Would you care to be specific and point out the "hatred"

I was defending this great nation of mine to a person who is so overcome with blind hatred for what he will never have -- sometimes called "envy" -- that he fills page after page of PhysOrg comments with the "death to America" rant so familiar to the ill-informed hate mongers among us.

A very emotional comment, that means nothing.

I see, so your brilliant conclusion is this:

a) Calling one's nation "great" is both overly emotional and complete voids the content of one's argument.

b) Stating the 100% verifiable FACT that kochevik is an America-basher and does his bashing flagrantly and frequently somehow "means nothing" because it is "emotional".

c) You don't like what I say, so it is untrue.

Wow!

"But they still buy our debt and use our dollars." - RyggTard

Poor RyggTard. Ignorant to the end.

He doesn't even realize that due to the lack of buyers of America's debt, the FED has been purchasing it with newly printed money.

Yes. The American government is now in a position where it must purchase it's own debt.

Ahahahahahahahah......

"If you owe the bank $100K, the bank own you. If you owe the bank $100billion, you own the bank." - RyggTard

Poor RyggTard - Ignorant to the end.

The primary holder of American Government debt is the American People through the purchasing of U.S. federal debt by various U.S. pension funds, U.S. bank holdings etc.

As a result of the last 40 years of Borrow and spend Republicanism, America has no future.

"The tipping point was when someone from the Orange County tax [assessor] wanted to see our facility to tax every piece of equipment I had," Michael Beeuwsaert told the Orange County Register." - RyggTard

Orange Country is Republican RyggTard.

It is the same county that a decade ago decided to take it's budget and invest it in rare coins.

The loss on that deal bankrupted the Republican County.

Republicans are incapable of managing money - or anything else for that matter.

Orange County was at the time the largest US county to have gone bankrupt, when in 1994 longtime treasurer Robert Citron's investment strategies left the county with inadequate capital to allow for any raise in interest rates for its trading positions. When the conservative residents of Orange County voted down a proposal to raise taxes in order to balance the budget, bankruptcy followed soon after. Citron later pleaded guilty to six felonies regarding the matter.

"I know it's off topic at this point but my idea of a perfect world is everyone doing the jobs that they like..." - CaveMan

Yes, but in the current failed economic system, people are forced by the invisible hand of the marketplace to work long hours at jobs they dislike producing products that are designed to fail, or performing services that are "necessary" only because they support this engineered product failure, or to provide a service that only exists because there is insufficient time for the overworked to do it themselves.

At least 80 percent of all labor in the worlds Capitalist system is unnecessary, worthless, unproductive effort that exists only to keep the rats on the treadmill.

There is nothing I would like better than to purchase a well made, table from a craftsman who is proficient at his job.

But in the current system, such tables are generally unaffordable and the public must resort to purchasing machine constructed crap made from MDF by a robot in Manchuria.

"1. There is a constitutional reqt for national defense." - RyggTard

Many Americans look at the U.S. constitution as if was a document handed down by Gawad herself.

The odd thing about these Americans is that the Constitution also calls for the raising of taxes to fund the evil Gubderment and to promote the general welfare of the American people.

"3. If the public really supported green tech why don't they spend their own money?" - RyggTard

If the public doesn't want to die in a car accident, then why don't they stop exceeding the speed limit?

If the public doesn't want to die of cancer, then why don't they fund scientific research on their own?

If the public wants clean air, why don't they create their own?

If the public wants clean water, then why doesn't people just create their own.

If the public wants wildlife, why don't they just go to a zoo?

If RyggTard wants to avoid paying taxes, then why doesn't he just create his own nation rather than trying to destroy America"

"And you do know that the govt rakes in $billions in taxes from oil leases and fuel taxes. Do you support eliminating such taxes along with any subsidy?" - RyggTard

Of course not. The object is to increase the price of oil to reduce your consumption of it so that your production of CO2 is lowered, and so that oil will exist for future generations.

Stupid... Clueless... RyggTard.

"perhaps you could put on some big-boy pants, quit hiding behind your anonymity" - NerdTard

America is one of the most hated nations on earth as a result of it's history of mass murder and self serving, underhanded foreign policy.

Nerdguy believes that America is entitled to commit such crimes.

"So, you're saying that essentially one-half our Congress is retarded, and the other half if composed of enlightened geniuses. " - NerdGuy

Hmmm.. Looking at the choices for Republican president I see a Pizza Hut owner who has a history of groping women, a woman with an IQ of a toaster, One guy who can't even remember the names of the three government agencies he will abolish, one guy who hit his wife with divorce papers while she was on here death bed...

And one guy - Libertarian Ron Paul - who has promised to increase the U.S. unemployment rate to 35 to 40 percent during his first year in office.

Did I miss anyone?

Who is stopping you?" - RyggTard

Comcast, AT&T, and the other providers that seek to limit internet bandwith and access in order to provide preferential access to their own content.

Clearly you didn't even read the article these comments are associated with.

Typical Libertarian tard.

Where are those WMD again Nerd Boy?

"By delusional, you mean, someone who doesn't share your point of view." - NerdBoy

Patriotism is just another form of blind, mindless religion that only exists to serve the interests of the state at the expense of the interests of the individual.

Show me a patriot and you show me a diseased mind.

"I was defending this great nation of mine to a person who is so overcome with blind hatred for what he will never have -- sometimes called "envy".." - Nerd Boy

"Someone forgot to mention this to the U.S. Last I checked, ours was the largest economy in the world." - NerdGuy

And yet America produces virtually nothing, and owes an amount of money equal to 1 entire year of GDP.

it seems to me that there is something wrong with your metric.

Can you figure out what it is?

Here... Let me help you...

Does unnecessarily breaking windows improve America's GDP?

Please get back to us with your answer.

"I, and a few others, saw no such foam. Hatred? Maybe, but no less than yours." - LivaN

I saw no hate. Just the bare unadulterated facts.

China now has more international power than America, and that power will continue to grow as America continues to become more and more irrelevant and impotent on the world stage.

Nice dump. Was it the enchiladas you ate last night?

At least 80 percent of all labor in the worlds Capitalist system is unnecessary, worthless, unproductive effort that exists only to keep the rats on the treadmill.

I swear, this sounds exactly like communism. Perhaps they are the SAME THING? 2 sides, 1 coin? Both contrivances meant to divide and polarize the people, and set them against one another in orderly and constructive Ways? This is my guess.

Neither resembles what it claims to be. Both function despite the inevitability of forces which would cause them to fail. How can this be?

Both function despite the inevitability of forces which would cause them to fail. How can this be?

Violence.

"Someone forgot to mention this to the U.S. Last I checked, ours was the largest economy in the world." - NerdGuy

And yet America produces virtually nothing, and owes an amount of money equal to 1 entire year of GDP.

it seems to me that there is something wrong with your metric.

Can you figure out what it is?

Here... Let me help you...

Does unnecessarily breaking windows improve America's GDP?

Please get back to us with your answer.

Vendicar, I would consider educating yourself about world conditions beyond your own small hate-packed worldview. The economies of nations around the world are doing poorly. America's is not even close to being at the top of the list. Of course, the raw numbers will look larger, but a genius mathematician like you should realize that this is relative to the size of our economy.

"America produces virtually nothing?"

Really? We know you love to troll, but come on. How would you expect me to reply to such an ignorant statement?

"perhaps you could put on some big-boy pants, quit hiding behind your anonymity" - NerdTard

America is one of the most hated nations on earth as a result of it's history of mass murder and self serving, underhanded foreign policy.

Nerdguy believes that America is entitled to commit such crimes.

Again, I've asked you not to put words in my mouth. I know you find it difficult to stick to facts and use logic when it interferes with your hilarious one-man freak show called "Tearing Down America". Whatever.

You are really showing your ignorance on this one. America is not one of the most hated nations on earth, despite the fact that you would like it to be. I know it's hated by you and all 3 of your friends. But, you would need to actually provide some evidence, some relevant facts beyond your clueless opinion to prove this point.

Do we have enemies? Certainly, and you're right up there at the top of the list. Does that make us different than any nation? Nope.

@Nerdyguy Do we have enemies? Certainly, and you're right up there at the top of the list. Does that make us different than any nation? Nope

That's funny because, speaking of traitors, your conservative GOP friends were called Tories and they were traitors in the American Revolution. Seems you're keeping the tradition alive.

@TheGhostofOtto1923 I swear, this sounds exactly like communism. Perhaps they are the SAME THING? 2 sides, 1 coin? Both contrivances meant to divide and polarize the people, and set them against one another in orderly and constructive Ways? This is my guess.

Yes ideologies are theories about husbandry practices for the debt-slave livestock. Banksters care not about ideology or the law of the land as needs vary depending upon business conditions. Flexibility is key. Xtianity places Julius Caesar as the figurehead aka Jesus Christ, and we all know his opinion about conquering.

The republican party did not exist during America's War for independence.
Tories supported the Crown. Most fled to Canada.
Modern US conservatives have the same spirit as those who wrote and supported a Constitution of LIMITED state power.

"Capital goods represent the largest goods export category (end-use) for the U.S. with $469.5 billion worth of exports in 2008. The U.S. trade surplus in capital goods rose $12.8 billion to reach $15.7 billion in 2008, up from a surplus of $2.9 billion in 2007."
http://trade.gov/...1109.pdf
Note this is before the Obama regime.

"The United States continues to lead the world in global image, according to GfK Roper Public Affairs & Corporate Communications, a division of GfK Custom Research North America, and leading policy advisor Simon Anholt. Results from the 2011 Anholt-GfK Roper Nation Brands Index(SM) (NBI), which measures the global image of 50 countries, shows the United States holding the top spot for the third year in a row as the nation with the best overall reputation."
http://www.prnews...203.html

That's funny because, speaking of traitors, your conservative GOP friends were called Tories and they were traitors in the American Revolution. Seems you're keeping the tradition alive.

I've said before, I have no particular interest in the GOP. Your continued ignorance is astounding.

Further, the GOP was created in 1854. Not around in 1776.

And how would I be keeping the traitor "tradition" alive? You don't even make sense to yourself I would imagine.

Yes ideologies are theories about husbandry practices for the debt-slave livestock.

No, not really, but highly amusing.

Banksters care not about ideology or the law of the land as needs vary depending upon business conditions.

First, it's "bankers". Second, individuals can have an ideology, separate from their career.

Xtianity places Julius Caesar as the figurehead aka Jesus Christ, and we all know his opinion about conquering.

Yes, please keep smoking that whacky weed! Wow!

"The United States continues to lead the world in global image, according to GfK Roper Public Affairs & Corporate Communications, a division of GfK Custom Research North America, and leading policy advisor Simon Anholt. Results from the 2011 Anholt-GfK Roper Nation Brands Index(SM) (NBI), which measures the global image of 50 countries, shows the United States holding the top spot for the third year in a row as the nation with the best overall reputation."
http://www.prnews...203.html

Careful, you'll confuse Vendicar/Kochevik (clearly one individual) with all those facts.

But, come to think of it, he'll just cut/paste "I hate America and I especially hate Republicans" no matter what you say. lmao, what a tool.

@ryggesogn2 The republican party did not exist during America's War for independence.
Tories supported the Crown. Most fled to Canada.

So indeed you concur that conservatives were traitors in the American Revolution! From wikipedia, between 15 and 20 percent of the European-American population of the colonies were Loyalists, Tories, Royalists, or King's Men. When their cause was defeated, about 20% of the Loyalists fled to other parts of the British Empire. That means that 80% remained to continue their treasonous obfuscation and insurrection rebranded as the GOP.

@Nerdyguy But, come to think of it, he'll just cut/paste "I hate America and I especially hate Republicans" no matter what you say.

You've already been discredited by making claims you can't back up. Nuff said.

"The economies of nations around the world are doing poorly. " - NerdGuy

GDP Growth % 2010
Paraguay 15.3
Singapore 14.5
China 10.3
Ethiopia 10.1
India 9.7
Burkina Faso 9.2
Zimbabwe 9.0
Turkey 8.9
Niger 8.8
Peru 8.8
Congo Republic 8.8
Uzbekistan 8.5
Urguray 8.5
Lau PDR 8.4
Turkmenistan 8.1
Sri Lanka 8.0
Papua New Guinea 8.0
Nigeria 7.9
Thailand 7.8
Dominican Republic 7.8
Philippines 7.6
Zambia 7.6
Belarus 7.6
Rwanda 7.5
Brazil 7.5
Panama 7.5
Bhutan 7.5
...
...

Should I continue to illustrate your Myopia?

"You've already been discredited by making claims you can't back up." - koche to NerdBoy

Very true.. Very True...

"The United States continues to lead the world in global image, according to GfK Roper Public Affairs & Corporate Communication" - RyggTard

I agree with the GFK Roper PRopaganda piece. America is a Brand, it is no longer a viable nation.

in response to my claims of hate-mongering

Where did you make that claim? Do you mean to say

Foaming-at-the-mouth hatred

is hate-mongering?

I, and a few others, saw no such foam.

, so we're only left with hatred. See definition "hate-mongering" vs. "hatred" for differences.

yes, there was hatred

His post is passionate. Does his passion stem from anger, pride, hatred, a combination? I don't know, hence the "maybe". Are your posts filled with passion? Most definitely. Does emotion itself invalidate a comment?

be specific and point out the "hatred"

we're just not all that interested in your opinion

this doofus boy

is a communist AND terrorist sympathizers

you wouldn't come begging at our doorstep.

will just chuckle at your stupidity

Again I will emphasise the "maybe" hatred. Certainly these are emotional comments, though which emotion can be debated.

I see, so your brilliant conclusion is this:
a) Calling one's nation "great" is both overly emotional

No, it is emotional. The entire comment where you are your nation's defender against a blind hateful jealous enemy is very emotional.

and complete voids the content of one's argument.

What argument? Attacking the commenter rather than the comment isn't an argument.

b) Stating the 100% verifiable FACT that kochevik is an America-basher and does his bashing flagrantly and frequently somehow "means nothing" because it is "emotional".

No, it means nothing because his "negative" attributes do not inherently affect the validity of his comment. For example, if he said that America is a continent, this comment would not be invalid because he is a communist, or even because he said it in anger. "Invalidating" a commenter does not inherently invalidate the comment.

"The economies of nations around the world are doing poorly. " - NerdGuy

GDP Growth % 2010
Paraguay 15.3
Singapore 14.5
China 10.3
Ethiopia 10.1
India 9.7
Burkina Faso 9.2
Zimbabwe 9.0
Turkey 8.9
Niger 8.8
Peru 8.8
Congo Republic 8.8
Uzbekistan 8.5
Urguray 8.5
Lau PDR 8.4
Turkmenistan 8.1
Sri Lanka 8.0
Papua New Guinea 8.0
Nigeria 7.9
Thailand 7.8
Dominican Republic 7.8
Philippines 7.6
Zambia 7.6
Belarus 7.6
Rwanda 7.5
Brazil 7.5
Panama 7.5
Bhutan 7.5
...
...

Should I continue to illustrate your Myopia?

One of the funniest posts from a guy known for his standup-comedy styling! Congrats!

There are 193 U.N. member states.

So, you're quoting Paraguay to me? Nigeria? Belarus? lmfao!

Yes, we all know China and India are doing well. The rest of the countries -- ADDED TOGETHER -- might equal the GDP of Belgium.

Now, if you'd care to step back into reality. You know -- as we all do -- that the world economic situation is at its worse since the 1920s.

LivaN/Kochevik/Vendicar:

I've enjoyed the back-and-forth immensely. It is gratifying to see that there are only 3 loons (2 of whom I suspect are the same person) silly enough to rant on with the "Death to America/Death to the Great Satan" nonsense.

Your tactics are truly not original. Do you believe intelligent, rational people around the world have never seen hate speech directed at a person/institution/nation before?

Not one of you cowards would come forward and name your own country so that we might poke a little fun at it along the way! Perhaps you believe your home is the place we should all strive to be like. Well, grow a pair and come out and say so.

The saddest part of all of this has been the (expected) obfuscation, changing the subject wherever sticking to the point had me painting you into a corner, and generally hopping form subject to subject until you found one you could rant on. Tories? Really? rofl Yes, thanks for that.

Well, toodles ladies!

So indeed you concur that conservatives were traitors

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"

Both function despite the inevitability of forces which would cause them to fail. How can this be?

Violence.

This is not the only way to herd sheep. 'Thy Rod and thy Staff, they comfort me.'

Even cats can be herded with a smelly fish at the end of a stick.

Oh and VD is Canadian.

Even cats can be herded with a smelly fish at the end of a stick.

Actually, the promise of nonsense concepts like liberty and eternal life will often work.

Those engaged in treason against a tyranical govt are freedom fighters.
Those who call themselves 'freedom fighters' to impose a tyranical state, aka socialism, are traitors to humanity.

Even cats can be herded with a smelly fish at the end of a stick.

That is not herding.

I see, so your brilliant conclusion is this:
a) Calling one's nation "great" is both overly emotional

No, it is emotional. The entire comment where you are your nation's defender against a blind hateful jealous enemy is very emotional.

and complete voids the content of one's argument.

What argument? Attacking the commenter rather than the comment isn't an argument.

b) Stating the 100% verifiable FACT that kochevik is an America-basher and does his bashing flagrantly and frequently somehow "means nothing" because it is "emotional".

No, it means nothing because his "negative" attributes do not inherently affect the validity of his comment. For example, if he said that America is a continent, this comment would not be invalid because he is a communist, or even because he said it in anger. "Invalidating" a commenter does not inherently invalidate the comment.

Just requoting this. It's obvious nerdyguy had no retort and had to resort to reverse-name calling.

FrankHerbert, et al. (and by et al. I mean Frank's 50 other online rank-generating aliases. Way to keep it classy Frank.):

"Just requoting this. It's obvious nerdyguy had no retort and had to resort to reverse-name calling."

You are sadly mistaken and ill-informed (by virtue of not reading the above posts) if you believe that a) I had no retort, seeing as how my retorts to this foolishness are substantial and b) you are accusing me of name calling. I have used some strong language in relation to the ludicrous comments made by a few radicals. All's fair in love and war as they say.

Now, please get back to your downranking program!

"Equality, rightly understood as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences; wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism."
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. "
Barry Goldwater