Major scientific programs could be slashed or eliminated under debt-reduction deal

Aug 05, 2011

The American Physical Society, the nation's leading organization of physicists, is deeply concerned that proposals to drastically reduce the nation's debt would do serious harm to major scientific projects.

APS understand that America must get its fiscal house in order, but the Society also believes that it is important to make wise choices that will create jobs and build a better America.

Under the debt-reduction deal, across-the-board cuts to reduce discretionary spending would mean the cancellation of major scientific projects. In a newly released statement, the APS Executive Board expressed dismay that impending U.S. House action on appropriations for Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies had identified the (JWST) as a prime candidate for termination.

APS urges Congress to restore funding for JWST and believes it deserves special attention for the following reasons:

Successor to the extraordinarily successful with similar potential to transform astronomy, JWST is the centerpiece of the future American space astrophysics program. It was the highest-ranked mission in the 2000 National Academy of Sciences' Astronomy Decadal Survey and is a cornerstone of the 2010 Survey.

JWST is 100 times more powerful than Hubble and would revolutionize our understanding of the birth of the Universe, reveal much about the first stars and galaxies, and play a crucial role in the quest to find life on distant planets.

Seventy-five percent of the JWST hardware is being fabricated or has been delivered, and 3.5 billion dollars (about half of the total cost) has been spent. The Casani report, commissioned by Senator Mikulski, found no technical problems and NASA and its contractors have corrected management deficiencies that the report identified.

JWST would continue Hubble's legacy as one of the greatest inspirations for young people and as a symbol of American leadership in science and space.Cancellation of JWST would eliminate thousands of high-tech jobs, especially in the aerospace industry.

The Canadian and the European Space Agencies are contributing around a to JWST; cancellation would again call into question our nation's record as a reliable international partner.

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Provided by American Physical Society

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brianweymes
4.8 / 5 (21) Aug 05, 2011
Idiot politicians. America needs to cut its spending overall but should actually increase it in vital areas such as infrastructure, higher education, R&D and scientific technologies like the James Webb. The currency of knowledge is priceless, these are investments for the future! The returns could be exponential compared to what is originally spent on them.
Waterdog
4 / 5 (4) Aug 05, 2011
I can't say it better.
rwinners
4.3 / 5 (12) Aug 05, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.
ForFreeMinds
1.5 / 5 (15) Aug 05, 2011
America needs to cut its spending overall but should actually increase it in vital areas such as infrastructure, higher education, R&D and scientific technologies like the James Webb.


I believe scientists would be more productive in the free market rather than living from money taken by force. Similarly, education provided by the free market is a better investment than government schools.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (13) Aug 06, 2011
The "Free Market" provides close to ZERO funding for basic science and very little for advanced science.

The LHC or Hubble would never be funded in a "free market" system.

Similarly Education provided in a "Free Market", is education primarily oriented toward producing wage slaves for the public's Corporate Masters.

The failure of America is proof that the promotion of Free Market principles is essentially Treason against one's own nation.
jonnyboy
1.3 / 5 (14) Aug 06, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.

exactly wrong....defense protects us...education propaganda gets liberals elected.
Skepticus
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 06, 2011
Congress does not need universe-spanning resolving powers. Their uncorrectable congenitally defective visions are only required to go no futher than the ballot boxes, their shares portfolios, oil and Israel. Look at what their wrecking balls have done to America's AAA credit rating. Now America has to pay hundreds of billions more every year on the debts. The fat pigs themselves don't have to pay more taxes, the stupid taxpayers will as always. Cutting left, right and center is the way it should be!
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Aug 06, 2011
The LHC or Hubble would never be funded in a "free market" system.

Vendy acknowledges the US is NOT a free market system so he and his fellow socialists can stop blaming the current economic failures on 'free markets'.
Universities were and are funded by foundations created by those who acquired great wealth in a freer market system. Ever hear of Andrew Carnegie or Howard Hughes?
The Roman Catholic Church established and funds observatories.
So explain why Peter Branson or Warren Buffet or Bill Gate or Paul Allen would NOT have funded Hubbble?
Had they done so, they could have sold the images, AND they may have spent the money to ensure the primary mirror was built to spec.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (12) Aug 06, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.

The defense industry needs scientists and engineers. Many have established their own education and training programs as the university system proves they can't provide the talent they need.

http://www.mathmo...m/#/home

If the govt schools were doing their job, why would Raytheon be compelled to start a middle school math program?
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Aug 06, 2011
Of course the APS is doing exactly what the 'progressive' state wants them to do.
Start a tantrum to keep their place at the teat of the state.
Socialism is wonderful until you run out of other people's money.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 06, 2011
"SPOT 6 and SPOT 7 form a constellation of Earth-imaging satellites designed to provide continuity of high-resolution, wide-swath data up to 2023. EADS Astrium took the decision to build this constellation in 2009 on the basis of a perceived government need for this kind of data."
Wiki
What! A private company built imaging satellites to make a profit?
ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (11) Aug 06, 2011
"A growing chorus of economists and educators think that the higher education industry will be America's next bubble. Easy credit, high tuition, and poor job prospects have resulted in growing delinquency and default rates on nearly $1 trillion worth of private and federally subsidized loans. Now the ratings agency Moody's has weighed in with a chilling diagnosis: "Unless students limit their debt burdens, choose fields of study that are in demand, and successfully complete their degrees on time, they will find themselves in worse financial positions and unable to earn the projected income that justified taking out their loans in the first place." "
http://reason.com...m-on-stu
What!? Choose fields of study that are in demand?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (9) Aug 06, 2011
"America has to pay hundreds of billions more every year on the debts." - Skepticus

Well that is what you get when you elect TeaPublicans to office.

Just consider yourself lucky that the TeaPublican demand that the U.S. stop borrowing immediately and as a result, increase the unemployment rate to over 30 percent didn't get pushed through.

The 30 year long Republican/Libertarian/Randite plan to "Starve the beast", look it up, and destroy America's scientific standing has been realized.

Good luck managing the results of their treason.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (8) Aug 06, 2011
"What!? Choose fields of study that are in demand?" - RyggTard

American corporations are fickle and have little loyalty to their employees. As a result what is in demand today is often not what is in demand next year.

What American Corporations want, and what they have largely realized, is a just in time work force to complement their just in time inventory.

Currently in the failed American state the average length of a job is 3 years.

Given that a PHD takes about 20 years to complete, targeting a specific job that is "in demand" is impossible.

But to the average Libertarian/Randite Tard, magical thinking is a fundamental part of their KookTard liedeology.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (10) Aug 06, 2011
"A private company built imaging satellites to make a profit?" - RyggTard

No, a private company contracted to have the satellites built to sell the pictures to Government. There are lots of private industries that exist to service the needs of the government you would abolish, thus negating the reason for the existence of those companies you exemplify.

You seem to have missed understanding this fact even though you directly stated it.

You poor, poor, Tard.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
"Of course the APS is doing exactly what the 'progressive' state wants them to do." - RyggTard

Yup. They are promoting science. Exactly what we progressives want them to do.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 06, 2011
"The defense industry needs scientists and engineers" - RyggTard

So in the Libertarian/Randite vision, cuts in basic scientific research will be replaced with funding for new engineering oriented toward killing people.

Yup. That is the Libertarian/Randite vision.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
"Vendy acknowledges the US is NOT a free market system so he and his fellow socialists can stop blaming the current economic failures on 'free markets'." - RyggTard

The financial industry understands the cause of the current economic crisis, and it is the deregulation of the derivitive and housing markets.

In fact it was Anne Rand's biggest disciples who on Randite Ideological grounds denied that there was a housing bubble and believed that the financial industries could never act in a manner contrary to their own best interests.

So the current financial crisis is a result of three factors.

1. The 30 year long Libertarian/Randite plan to destroy the
federal government through bankruptcy. The "Starve the Beast" policy adopted by the Republicans.

2. The Libertarian/Randite demand to deregulate the financial industry.

3. The Libertarian/Randite dogma that industries will never act against their own self interest.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
"So explain why Peter Branson or Warren Buffet or Bill Gate or Paul Allen would NOT have funded Hubbble?" - RyggTard

Of the three, Paul Allen is the only one to have funded any science (SETI). Allen has provided funding of 25 million.

Hubble in comparison cost 2500 million to construct, and at least that much again to operate.

The 2008 Hubble service mission alone cost 900 million, and there have been 5 service missions?

So the total cost for Hubble is about 10,000 million.

400 times what one of the richest men on earth was willing to donate for fundamental scientific research.

Perhaps your belief is that if the wealthy were only 400 times more wealthy they would fund projects like Hubble.

But of course, that is impossible since the super wealthy already own 98% of the worlds wealth.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (9) Aug 06, 2011
"The Roman Catholic Church established and funds observatories." - RyggTard

And 3 years ago fired their chief astronomer for his defense of the scientific view of the early universe and it's evolution.

Poor RyggTard. Poor, Poor, RyggTard.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (6) Aug 06, 2011
Those that rule have much more invested in the defense industries than in the educational industries.

Too bad.
But theoretical science inevitably benefits the military, and they know it. That's why DARPA and the navy fund so much of it. Perhaps someone realized that by the time the Webb is launched it will be obsolete?

And now for cruel sarcasm...

Hey rygg, what's the biggest drain on the economy? Right, it's the entitlements. Socialist Medicare, SS, etc. Just like with GM, the country is being dragged under by the growing masses of post-productive old people. Who needs them? Let's feed them to the polar bears like the esquimaux:
http://www.youtub...a_player

-Then we can afford all the telescopes and robot tanks and supertrains and obamacare we want.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
"Of course the APS is doing exactly what the 'progressive' state wants them to do." - RyggTard

Yup. They are promoting science. Exactly what we progressives want them to do.

No, they are demanding the govt take money from others and give it to them because they are so smart and deserve it.
All 'intellectual' elites believe they shouldn't have to earn their way in the world.
The 2008 Hubble service mission alone cost 900 million, and there have been 5 service missions?

Sounds like a very poor design. Oh, that's right, it was a govt project.
The defense industry spends more on how NOT to kill the people they don't want to kill. An RPG is cheap and needs little engineering. An IR,GPS guided cruise missile much more. And to hit a incoming RV nuke, much more.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
Auto, it was the US Navy that has continues to fund research on cold fusion when the rest of the physics community was too afraid.
The first internet was created to maintain communications with the US nuclear missile silos in case of an attack.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 06, 2011
"Auto, it was the US Navy that has continues to fund research on cold fusion when the rest of the physics community was too afraid." - RyggTard

US Navy = Government.

You poor, stupid Libertarian Tard.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 06, 2011
"No, they are demanding the govt take money from others and give it to them because they are so smart and deserve it." - RyggTard

Ya, that is the price of being part of a civilization.

Don't like it.. Get out and die in the middle of the ocean from lack of health care.

"All 'intellectual' elites believe they shouldn't have to earn their way in the world." - RyggTard

So your Randite ideology holds that scientists doing research into basic science are in fact worthless deadbeats.

We knew it all along....

"The defense industry spends more on how NOT to kill the people they don't want to kill." = RyggTard

Well, they seem to be doing a pretty pathetic job of it.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (6) Aug 06, 2011
Auto, it was the US Navy that has continues to fund research on cold fusion when the rest of the physics community was too afraid.
The first internet was created to maintain communications with the US nuclear missile silos in case of an attack.
I KNOW. The military LOVES as well as fears science. They need to make sure that anything potentially dangerous is developed by them first. Or effectively suppressed until such Time as it can be developed safely.

Good thing eh? We don't need to be wasting valuable resources on another maginot line do we?

So what about socialist entitlements? You think the elderly should be setting up lemonade stands? Selling quilts on eBay? Machines can make them better than arthritic fingers can.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 06, 2011
An RPG is cheap and needs little engineering. An IR,GPS guided cruise missile much more. And to hit a incoming RV nuke, much more.
An rpg just brought down a chinook in afghanystan. Killed many Seals. Too bad they weren't using Ospreys. Why not?
The first internet was created to maintain communications with the US nuclear missile silos in case of an attack.
Uh, they're not still connected to the Internet are they?? Because hackersec and anonymous and china are looking for trouble...
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 06, 2011
die in the middle of the ocean from lack of health care.

What happened to the Hippocratic oath?
There is a market for health care. People will pay money to be healthy, if they are allowed to by their govt.
scientists doing research into basic science are in fact worthless deadbeats.

Yes, if that is their motivation.
It is interesting that just about every major 'basic science' discovery is tied to some potential application 10-30 years in the future, if more funding is provided of course. Sounds like hot fusion doesn't it?
Basic science is also discovered when current engineering and science don't respond as predicted. The photo electric effect has significant economic applications.

Well, they seem to be doing a pretty pathetic job of it.

Compared to what?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
"What happened to the Hippocratic oath?" - RyggTard

Where I come from an oath only applies to those who have taken it. It must be different on your KookTard home world of Libertera.

"There is a market for health care." - RyggTard

And how much of your wealth are you willing to fork over to remain alive?

And of course, none of this is going to save you from a lack o f health care as you are floating in the middle of the ocean.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 06, 2011
It is interesting that you are so devoid of awareness that you don't even realize that you have provided your own counter-example.

Poor.. Poor... Randite Tard.

"It is interesting that just about every major 'basic science' discovery is tied to some potential application 10-30 years in the future, if more funding is provided of course. Sounds like hot fusion doesn't it?" - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 06, 2011
Excuse me Tard boy.. But now you are arguing against your own previous assertions.

Randiteism and Libertarianism are clearly mental disorders.

"Basic science is also discovered when current engineering and science don't respond as predicted." - RyggTard
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
What motivated Einstein to develop special relativity?

Is this his real motivation?

"Komisaruk hopes that this new research will lead to information to help people who are unable to reach orgasm but is also looking at ways to use this pleasurable stimulation to directly control brain activity. According to Komisaruk, learning to better understand and control the part of the brain that produces pleasurable sensations could make a difference in the treatment of depression, anxiety, addiction or even obesity."
http://medicalxpr...firstCmt

"ered a last resort in the effort to provide fresh water to the world's populations and suggests that long-term research is needed to determine the impact of seawater desalination on the aquatic environment, but believes that desalination has a major role to play now and in the future.

"All of this will require new materials and new chemistry,..."
http://www.physor...nation-t
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 07, 2011
"Besides proving the Van Allen radiation belt theory correct, the discovery also opens the door to other possibilities, such as using the discovered antiprotons for manmade purposes, such as one day perhaps serving as fuel for rockets."
http://www.physor...firstCmt

"Because of continued interest in plutonium's behavior in the environment, from both environmental and security angles, the researchers will continue to perform research directed at identifying and understanding subsurface reactions involving iron and plutonium. New capabilities in EMSL, a national scientific user facility, will play a critical role in this research."
http://www.physor...firstCmt

Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 07, 2011
"What motivated Einstein to develop special relativity?" - RyggTard

Curiosity. Capitalism played no part in his work.

Einstein of course was a theorist, and theoretical science can be done on a shoestring budget.

Confirming those theories by performing experiments is what takes funding. Funding which corporations have proven themselves ideologically incapable and unwilling to providing.

Free markets are a failure. America continually provides a wonderful example of the results of the failure to adequately regulate corporations.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
"Besides proving the Van Allen radiation belt theory correct..." - RyggTard

From data obtained by a government funded instrument on a government subsidized Russian Satellite.

"New capabilities in EMSL, a national scientific user facility..." - RyggTard

EMSL - a Government funded lab.

The Pacific Northwest National Laboratory is a part of the Energy Department. A department that Republicans, TeaTards, Libertarian, and Randite Morons such as yourself have been claiming should be abolished.

"the effort to provide fresh water to the world's populations" - RyggTard

From a press release about a government funded research project at Yale University.

"information to help people who are unable to reach orgasm.." - RyggTard

Government funded medical research from Rutgers University.

There certainly is a lot of science being funded by Government. Isn't there TardBoy?

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
Vendy once again ignores the point that the 'basic' research must make some claim for future benefit to obtain more money, especially from the govt.
Why does this research take to long to produce the benefit claimed? Hot fusion research has made claims, sucked up money, and failed to deliver.
Einstein was motivated by Maxwell's equations to develop special relativity.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 07, 2011
"The only way that state benefit programmes could be extended in the ways that are forecast for Europes ageing population would be by government seizing all the levers of the economy and producing as much (externally) worthless currency as was needed in the manner of the old Soviet Union. "
A general correction of the imbalance between wealth production and wealth redistribution is now a matter of basic necessity, not ideological preference. "
The hardest obstacle to overcome will be the idea that anyone who challenges the prevailing consensus of the past 50 years is irrational and irresponsible. That is what is being said about the Tea Partiers. In fact, what is irrational and irresponsible is the assumption that we can go on as we are. "
http://www.telegr...uth.html
This was predicted by Mises, Hayek and many others. Do 'progressives' want prosperity or control? Pick one
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
Why does this research take to long to produce the benefit claimed? Hot fusion research has made claims, sucked up money, and failed to deliver.
Deliver what ryggadygg? Plasma physics has compiled increasing knowledge on how to store, manipulate, and transport materials in plasma form. This will be invaluable to future tech which will absolutely need these capabilities.

Govt wizards know that this takes a great deal of time and money. They also know that the public needs to believe this research will produce unlimited free power (well it MIGHT you know) in order to keep funding it.

The govt also knows that the pursuit of this particular knowledge base is so IMPORTANT that alternative methods of producing fusion energy, such as polywell, z pinch, or even cold fusion, may need to be suppressed until this knowledge base matures.

Bussard, former DOE bigwig and Insider, did a very good job of this by sitting on polywell until he died.
Techno1
5 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
"Why does this research take to long to produce the benefit claimed?"-Rygg

You realize some areas of our technology are already so advanced that it takes years or decades of research and trial and error to make a marketable, cost-effective improvement? Read today's new article. They're down to genetically engineering bacteria to make nano-wires. That doesn't sound like something you can do in two days in your basement, like back in the days of Tesla and Edison.
Techno1
5 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
"A general correction of the imbalance between wealth production and wealth redistribution is now a matter of basic necessity, not ideological preference. " Rygg

You must be joking!

The wealthy in America are verifiably richer than they have ever been, and have a higher percentage of both income and total accumulated wealth than they ever have since the colonial period.

Do you realize that voting "republican" does not even benefit you financially unless you make at least around 4 to 5 times the MEAN annual income (more like 7 to 8 times the Median)?

The tax breaks they are for only affect people who are, in most cases, already filthy rich: CEOs, entertainers, tyccoons, etc.

How much more income and accumulated wealth do millionaires and billionaires need at the expense of everyone else?

Do you seriously believe medical care should be a priviledge for the very wealthy only, as Republicans seem to believe?

Continued...
Techno1
4.3 / 5 (7) Aug 07, 2011
Wow, or Conservative (and often allegedly "Christian") Republitards and Teatards want tax cuts for the rich, and end "entitlements"...Wow.

Firstly, "entitlements" are typically mostly paid for by the person receiving them, although admittedly social security is losing money primarily because of a GOOD reason, being the life expectancy has mushroomed due to modern medicine, and primarily the Vaccine: MMR, Polio, and Smallpox Vaccines went a long way, I should think.

The average person pays enough into SS to retire for 7 years, but unfortunately, the average woman is now drawing benefits for 19 years, while the average man is now drawing benefits for around 12 years....So the SOLUTION is to push the eligibility back by 5 years (excepting disability) RETROACTIVELY if possible...

However, if the greedy, filthy rich hadn't "accumulated" 90% of wealth at everyone else's expense, instead of actually...paying...people...then you wouldn't even need Social Security system at all...
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
You realize some areas of our technology are already so advanced that it takes years or decades of research and trial and error to make a marketable, cost-effective improvement?

And who pays for this? Who should reap the rewards for the risk?
at everyone else's expense,

You mean at everyone else's benefit? After all, those greedy companies pay half of the social security tax.
What do you socialists think those filthy rich do with THEIR wealth?
Many buy govt bonds to fund your welfare programs. Others invest in stocks, municipal bonds to fund roads and schools. Some provide capital to entrepreneurs to research and develop new technologies.

But the socialists knows much better what these filthy rich should do with the 'peoples' money, right?
Like China's high speed rail system that kills people and is too expensive for the commoner to use?

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
Socialism may make you feel better, as this clip shows, there is not enough wealth for you to confiscate to satisfy your socialist fantasies.

http://www.youtub...pi6K-8WQ
Techno1
5 / 5 (4) Aug 07, 2011
Just so you know, I watched that entire video, so...in rebuttal, an opportunistic video presented itself...

Warren Buffet wants to raise his own taxes....

http://www.youtub...amp;NR=1

Rygg:

High speed rail systems are an example of a good idea but bad implementation. Since kinetic energy is the square of velocity, doubling speed quadruples fuel costs.

Travelling 300mph costs 16 times as much energy as travelling 75mph, neglecting air resistance, etc. So "high speed" mass transit is a waste of resources.

Nevertheless, a high-speed train would be much cheaper and safer than an aircraft and more affordable. Highjacking a train would not be a good terrorist plot, for example.
Techno1
5 / 5 (7) Aug 07, 2011
Why do we spend more money than the next 13 to 15 nations combined on military, particularly when 80% of them are our allies?

http://en.wikiped...tes_Navy

Military spending:

http://www.warres...hart.htm

1 Aircraft carrier and a compliment of a few destroyers annihilated Libya's ENTIRE AA capability, and most of it's entire military in 2 days...

Why do we need 400 CONVENTIONAL super-ships, each capable of destroying an entire country's military in a day or two?

My God, I'm all for security and stuff, but this is completely INSANE, particularly since our presidents and generals end up fighting stupid Guerilla wars/urban wars anyway, and getting so many people injured needlessly.

They should cut the military literally in half. Keep the R&D divisions, and cut the SIZE (number of ships, planes, tanks and pilots,etc,) to like 40% of what it is now.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Aug 07, 2011
Warren Buffet wants to raise his own taxes....

No, he does not.
Buffet, like everyone else, is FREE to donate any amount of money to the US Treasury as they desire. Buffet wants to force other people to pay more taxes.
He is free to pay more at any time.

much cheaper and safer than an aircraft and more affordable.

If so, some company would have built one without govt subsidy.
Commercial freight rail operates at a profit. Why can't passenger rail? Bus service is becoming quite affordable between major cities. It is much cheaper, and takes about the same time to take a bus between Boston and NYC.
freethinking
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 07, 2011
WAIT EVERYONE. We are falling for the government trap. When to government says it is cutting back, they don't mean they are cutting back. To me, if I cut my next year budget it means I spend LESS next year. To the government if they say they cut spending they mean they will spend MORE next year, just not as much as they hoped to spend. Thats not a budge cut.

The lie is that government is cutting anything.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
Why do we spend more money than the next 13 to 15 nations combined on military, particularly when 80% of them are our allies?

Because we don't want them to.
Aircraft carrier and a compliment of a few destroyers annihilated Libya's ENTIRE AA capability, and most of it's entire military in 2 days...

So? Libya is still fighting and the Taliban are still quite effective. Air superiority is just the first step.

If aircraft carriers are such a bad idea, why is China planning to build three? India too is building aircraft carriers.

cut the SIZE (number of ships, planes, tanks and pilots,etc,) to like 40% of what it is now.

Will China, India, Russia... also stop their military build up? But your wish is occurring, at least with manned aircraft. UAVs are becoming quite popular.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 07, 2011
The govt NEVER cuts spending under baseline budgeting. A 'cut' is considered a reduction in the next year's markup.
The govt would consider a budget freeze a cut.
Also, govt agencies that don't spend all their money are at risk for not having the same funding levels as the previous year.
There is NO incentive for any govt agency to save money or to return money. Managers are rewarded for spending and for having more staff.
Private employers reward for doing more with less.
freethinking
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 07, 2011
Its interesting that the more progressive someone claims to be, the more derogatory they become to those that disagree with them. I respect people who have mental disabilities, so I would never called them retarded as I find that offensive to them. They are human beings worth of respect and using that term to demean someone is reprehensible
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
It is even more interesting that invariably someone who disagrees with a progressive position turns out to be a proven congenital liar.

"Its interesting that the more progressive someone claims to be, the more derogatory they become to those that disagree with them." - FreeDumb

freethinking
1.9 / 5 (9) Aug 07, 2011
How sad it is that the more progressive someone claims to be the more derogatory they become to those that disagree with them. I respect people who have mental disablities, so I would never call them retarted or a retard, as that is offensive to them. They are human beings worthy of respect and using that term to demean someone is reprehensible.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
"Buffet, like everyone else, is FREE to donate any amount of money to the US Treasury as they desire." - RyggTard

Poor RyggTard. You don't know the difference between a tax and a donation.

Buffet wants his taxes to be increased - along with his peers - for the benefit of the nation.

You Libertarian/Randites on the other hand want your taxes decreased for your own benefit with the resulting destruction of your own nation.

It is interesting to note that the founder of your sick ideology Ayn Rand spent the last years of her life as a welfare queen - taking money from the state in order to pay for her medical care.

She of course contracted lung cancer after years of denying the reality that smoking causes cancer.

The denial of reality is the hallmark of the Libertarian/Randite mind.

freethinking
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 07, 2011
Vendicar, who is the founder of your ideology?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
"Just so you know, I watched that entire video" - Techno

Which of course was a pile of Libertarian misrepresentation.

Lost in the video is the fact that the yearly deficit is 1.6 trillion, not 3.6 trillion, and that the bulk of the 1.6 trillion has resulted from a recession that has largely been caused by Republican/Libertarian economics.

The Libertarian solution is to simply spend less, but of course this means removing hundreds of billions from an economy teetering on the edge of a recession.

Libertarian/Randites are doing their best to recreate the conditions that led to the first Great Depression, with the hope that once they destroy the American state, they will be in a political position to rebuild it in the image of the stage invisioned by the Psychopath mentor Ayn Rand.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 07, 2011
"Vendicar, who is the founder of your ideology?" - FreeDumb

I have no ideology.

I am a willing prisoner of reality as defined by the scientific method.

Reality has a strong Liberal Bias.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2011
It is even more interesting that invariably someone who disagrees with a progressive position turns out to be a proven congenital liar.

"Its interesting that the more progressive someone claims to be, the more derogatory they become to those that disagree with them." - FreeDumb
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
"The govt would consider a budget freeze a cut." - RyggTard

There is already a cap in place. It is the debt limit.

And if you had enough awareness of the real world, it was just raised by the Republicans.

TeaPublicans (largely Libertarian/Randites) wanted the cap to be retained, which would have caused 1.6 trillion in budget cuts immediately with the result being an immediate increase of the number of people unemployed in the U.S. by 15 million with another 15 million being added a few months down the road due to multiplier effects.

The TeaTard/Libertarian solution to America's debt problem was then to throw the U.S. into a second Grand Depression by increasing the Unemployment rate to somewhere in the range of 30 to 40 percent.

Is it any wonder why Libertairan/Randites are considered Traitors?

Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
"Will China, India, Russia... also stop their military build up? " - RyggTard

Not until they are the supreme military power on earth.

Meanwhile the U.S. is bankrupt due to Libertairan/Randite economic policies.

Funny.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2011
Hope:
"The percentage of Americans who expressly state that they are supporters of the Tea Party movement is currently about as large at 22 percent of the population as the 21 percent who say they are liberals, according to recent but separate Gallup polls.

Meanwhile, at 41 percent of the population, according to Gallup, self-described conservatives outnumber both Tea Party movement supporters and liberals by nearly 2-to-1."
http://cnsnews.cl...s-entire
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Aug 08, 2011
"The percentage of American..." - RyggTard

Yup, the more Conservative America becomes the faster it declines on the world stage.

Reagan set America on a path of Conservative Ignorance and Borrow and Spend Republican destruction, and Conservatives have been pumping the same poison into the American economic system ever since.

Hope?

America's fate is sealed. Oblivion.
krwhite
4 / 5 (4) Aug 08, 2011
Enough slander, this is a science site.

My progressive view:
We've got it wrong on spending. I'd build a high speed rail network connecting every city, rebuild the bridges and roads, 100x the research money to the DOE and others, give college grants for degrees that would have a positive impact on the future, forgive college loans in half when filing for bankruptcy, add prizes for breakthroughs & cures for diseases (1 trillion for finding that one that everyone wants), all while taxing the holy hell out of the rich. We pulled money essentially out of our backside for Iraq, we can do the same for non-idiotic doings.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Aug 08, 2011
What Republicans don't want you to know is that inflation naturally causes the U.S. debt to decline in value by 435 billion per year. So it is possible to borrow that much without increasing the effective value of the debt.

The current deficit however is almost 4 times that. This deficit is the price of converting the Bush Depression into Bush Recession 2.

1.6 trillion is unsustainable over the long term, but without it over the short term, the U.S. will re-enter the Bush Recession.

In terms of science funding... Basic science is where all technology originates from, and government is the funding agent for all basic science.'

Randite/Libertarians on these forums have been smacking their lips at the thought of defunding all manner of science.

Their ideology is to destroy America so that it can be reformed in a utopian vision of absolute self interest as per the writings of the Psychopath mentor Ayn Rand.

Osiris1
2 / 5 (4) Aug 08, 2011
J Edgar Hoover in his book: "Masters of Deceit" wrote that subversive elements in any society would use 'useful fools' who would willingly act against their own interest in order to forward the interests of others who cared less for them than the dirt on the underside of their shoes. All those fools needed was skillful propagandizing, a few 'big lies' in a roomful of like minded vacuous mentalities and they would work tirelessly. Talked to one the other day. This worthy was harrassing a union demonstration with a cheap cell fone camera. When questioned, he offered how 'George Bush was for freedom.....Bush!?, the same man that hired shifty-eyed lawyers to write murky 'opinions' that were used by the jack booted thugs of 'Homeland Security' and others to arrest American citizens off of the streets of this nation and take them abroad to be tortured in secret prisons operated by barbaric warlords. I was so shocked that I did not think of that until later and write it here now.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 08, 2011
Enough slander, this is a science site.

My progressive view:
We've got it wrong on spending. I'd build a high speed rail network connecting every city, rebuild the bridges and roads, 100x the research money to the DOE and others, give college grants for degrees that would have a positive impact on the future, forgive college loans in half when filing for bankruptcy, add prizes for breakthroughs & cures for diseases (1 trillion for finding that one that everyone wants), all while taxing the holy hell out of the rich. We pulled money essentially out of our backside for Iraq, we can do the same for non-idiotic doings.

There is not enough money to fulfill your socialist fantasies. Unless the govt prints more.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 08, 2011
The govt can take ALL the money from the rich, and more, and it would still not be enough.
After you have killed off all your productive businesses and destroyed all your capital, how will the 'progressive' pay for next year?
http://www.youtub...pi6K-8WQ

'Progressives' claim to be so smart, but they can't manage the JWST and they refuse to acknowledge the failure of socialism.
freethinking
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 08, 2011
Rygg, don't you get it. Progressives are smart because they believe they are smart and they are told by their parents and teachers they are smart. Thats why they hate you when you show them they know nothing about economics.

BTW progressives don't need to pay for stuff next year because they either live in their parents basement or are on wealfare, or are in jail. All of which of course is Bush's fault.
Javinator
5 / 5 (3) Aug 08, 2011
I consider someone as "smart" when they use logical reasoning based on valid assumptions to support their arguments.

I consider someone as "not smart" when they use logical fallacies, straw men, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and biased generalizations to support their arguments.

http://en.wikiped...allacies

http://en.wikiped..._(logic)

http://en.wikiped..._hominem

http://en.wikiped...traw_man
Spaceman_Spiff
4 / 5 (1) Aug 08, 2011
This bickering back and forth is one of the main reasons the US is in this situation in the first place. This is everyone's problem and no single person or group is at fault more than the other. The current situation is the result of many private and public missteps over multiple years (covering multiple presidencies). The complexity of this whole economic situation will require multiple approaches to be fixed so it'd be nice to see a little more respect about others opinions rather than branding them idiots for not agreeing.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 08, 2011
RyggTard posts a link to a nice video that illustrates the deceit behind his ideology quite well.

His link starts with the implicit assumption that the U.S. budget deficit is 3.6 trillion dollars, when in fact it is 1.6 trillion.

Also implicit in it's assumptions is that this 1.6 trillion is considered sustainable and it's repetition is planned for subsequent years when it is not.

Forgotten in his Libertarian video is the reason for the expansion of the debt from 400 billion per year during the Bush years, to 1.6 trillion today during a prolonged recession caused by his own Libertarian/Randite ideology as implemented by and confessed to by the Libertarian/Randite ideologue at the Fed, Allan Greenspan.

His video also fails to mention where this 1.6 trillion in spendng is going - which is principally to income support for people who are unemployed and looking or unemployed and who have given up, as well as those employed through the rebuilding of the national infrastructure.

cont
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Aug 08, 2011
Finally RyggTard's video fails to mention the necessary results of immediately halting this 1.6 trillion in deficit spending.

That result would be the immediate addition of 15 million Americans to the unemployment ranks with another 15 million being added weeks later.

Such a massive increase in unemployment would push America into another Grand Economic Depression that would last decades, and destroy far more wealth than the 1.6 trillion will cost America.

Virtually every policy advocated by Libertarian/Randites has turned out to be a complete failure, from free trade, to their lunatic claim that tax cuts increase government revenue, to their long stated goal of "starving the beast" of federal government through near fiscal bankruptcy.

The American Economy has been all but destroyed by Libertarian/Randite ideological based Economics that lacks any basis in reality or common sense.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Aug 08, 2011
Wrong... Wrong.... and uhm..... Wrong...

On virtually every issue, the party on the wrong side has been the Republicans.

They have driven America into the ground fiscally, and culturally.

Anyone who claims otherwise is profoundly ignorant of the last 30 years of recent history, and is guilty of employing a low brow blanket condemnation of everyone in place of a reasoned,
attribution of blame based on evidence.

And it is this evidence that causes 98 percent of all scientists to be Liberal.

"This bickering back and forth is one of the main reasons the US is in this situation in the first place." - Spiffy
Spaceman_Spiff
5 / 5 (2) Aug 08, 2011
Wrong... Wrong.... and uhm..... Wrong...

Anyone who claims otherwise is profoundly ignorant of the last 30 years of recent history, and is guilty of employing a low brow blanket condemnation of everyone in place of a reasoned, attribution of blame based on evidence.

And it is this evidence that causes 98 percent of all scientists to be Liberal.

"This bickering back and forth is one of the main reasons the US is in this situation in the first place." - Spiffy


I'm a both a Democrat and a chemical engineer. You're a fanatic who is no different than the others whom you oppose at the other end of the political spectrum.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 08, 2011
I consider someone as "smart" when they use logical reasoning based on valid assumptions to support their arguments.

I consider someone as "not smart" when they use logical fallacies, straw men, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and biased generalizations to support their arguments.

http://en.wikiped...allacies

Or people that use Wikie as a reference.

Spending is NOT controlled because that is what the 'progressives' wanted with entitlements. That way they won't have face the beneficiariess at the ballot box every two years.
Even if ALL 'discretionary' spending were eliminated, entitlements will soon take ALL of the GNP.

The first job of a politician is to be reelected, not do what is right.
Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.
Javinator
5 / 5 (3) Aug 08, 2011
Or people that use Wikie as a reference.


What does the fact that I used wiki have to do with anything? That's an ad homin... ohhhh I get it.

Also, are you suggesting that logical fallacies, straw men, ad hominems, non sequiturs, and biased generalizations are valid methods of debate?

(If you don't know what those are, feel free to use the handy wiki links I provided above)
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Aug 08, 2011
The govt can take ALL the money from the rich, and more, and it would still not be enough...how will the 'progressive' pay for next year?
But doncha see MJ, we've got to destroy the old to make room for the new. Just like the way the obsolete antebellum slave infrastructure had to be destroyed to create room for the industrial revolution to take hold there.

Not to mention the 1/3 of the southern pops who were slaves and had to be dispersed throughout the north and west, and who needed room and jobs waiting for them.

Whats that section in the bible about the end times which says in effect that, just when you think you are safe, here comes the Angel of Death for you? Never can find that.

The rich will suffer just like everyone else. The techno changes approaching will eclipse even the industrial revolution. The world must be Prepared.

Fire Sale! Everything Must GO!!! Haha

Crazy Eddie - his prices are INSANE!! (That guy still in jail? Great freemarketer...)
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 09, 2011
"Spending is NOT controlled because that is what the 'progressives' wanted with entitlements." - RyggTard

It is quite the contrary of course. Democrats have been constantly warning the Republicans that their Borrow and Spend policies would bankrupt the nation.

However the Republicans have been following a Libertarian playbook first suggested by the CATO institute and then echoed by Allan Greenspan - a protege of Ayn Rand (your hero) - that the U.S. federal government needed to be brought to the edge of bankruptcy in order to kill social programs.

The policy was known as "Starve the Beast", and under that policy Republicans like George Bush would spend trillions of dollars freely and wastefully in order to bankrupt the Federal Government.

Bush's Brother is on record as saying...

"We need to manufacture an 'economic' crisis in order to assure that there are no alternatives to a smaller government." - Jeb Bush - Imprimus Magazine 1995.

Borrow and Spend Repubs have bankrupted you.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 09, 2011
"The first job of a politician is to be reelected, not do what is right." - RyggTard

"The best politicians are the ones you can purchase." - Libertarian motto.

"Even if ALL 'discretionary' spending were eliminated, entitlements will soon take ALL of the GNP." - RyggTard

If all "discressionary" spending were eliminated then America would immediately have 30 million more people on the unemployment line and be on a one way ticket to Grand Economic DepressionVille.

That seems to be the Libertarian/Randite goal.

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 09, 2011
"Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money." - RyggTard

Odd that the Capitalist Republicans have done virtually all of the borrowing, while transferring the maximum amount of wealth possible to the most wealthy Americans and Corporations.

Reality and honesty aren't your strong points are they RyggTard?

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 09, 2011
"I'm a both a Democrat and a chemical engineer." - Spiffy

And ignorant of the last 40 years of your own American history.

That is why you have lost your nation. Political ignorance and apathy among Liberals and Independents.

Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 09, 2011
The first job of a politician is to be reelected, not do what is right.
Interesting. Since you ARE a politician, and posting from work, you just called yourself someone that does not do right. Which is clear in the nonsense you post even without us knowing that you are using taxpayer money to insult taxpayers.

For those whining about the toxic nature of the posts here please keep in mind that Marjon, Freethinking and several others here consider words like liberal, progressive and science to be thing that only commie pinko thieving monsters would be for. So it should come as no surprise that they get the same back in return.

However I do wish the Canadian would drop the term TARD as it makes him look like an idiot. Even when the post is otherwise correct. After all Marjon is NOT a tard. He is a lying hypocritical troll but he is not a tard.

Unless he actually believes the contradictory crap he is pushing. But trolls rarely believe the crap they write.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 09, 2011
Since you ARE a politician,
Who says? You need to be more skeptical.
I used 'progressive' to describe what those who think they are progressive do and advocate. 'Progressives' used to call themselves 'liberal'. I put these words in quotes because what 'progressives/liberal' advocate and support only make progress towards a more socialist state.
If this makes those who feel they are 'progressive' or 'liberal' uncomfortable, there may be hope for you.
Javinator
5 / 5 (5) Aug 09, 2011
Do you put your straw men in fields to scare the crows away? You have so many I figure you should put them to use (since they're of no actual use in a debate or discussion).
Spaceman_Spiff
3.3 / 5 (3) Aug 09, 2011
"I'm a both a Democrat and a chemical engineer." - Spiffy

And ignorant of the last 40 years of your own American history.

That is why you have lost your nation. Political ignorance and apathy among Liberals and Independents.



You've convinced me. Run for election, tell me your district, and I will move there to vote for you. I have seen the light and the future shall be glorious with you shepherding us sheeple!
freethinking
1 / 5 (6) Aug 09, 2011
VD, conservatives have been against spending for a long time. In Canada and in the US. It is the progressives that constantly push/demand to spend.

I'm with Rygg. I use progressive to describe what those who think they are progressive do and advocate. I know history enough to know something about the heros and founders of the modern progressive movements and how evil they were.
Gawad
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 09, 2011
@notthinking:
VD, conservatives have been against spending for a long time. In Canada and in the US. It is the progressives that constantly push/demand to spend.

Once again, you demonstrate that you are hopelessly uneducated and simply talking out of your ass about things of which you are clueless, in no small part because you are a religious and ideological cripple.

In CANADA it was the LIBERALS, or 'Progressives' as you call them, under Jean Chretien and his appointed finance minister Paul Martin in the mid-nineties to early 2000s that got our country's fiscal house IN ORDER. Under Martin's stewardship Canada eliminated its deficit, accumulated surpluses and began to pay down its debt. (BTW, that's not to say that I don't think Harper's Conservatives haven't since done pretty much as well as could be hoped for given how American public & private mismanagement has soured the world economy.)

But for god's sake, man, GET A CLUE before you open your bullshit spewer!
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Aug 09, 2011
"VD, conservatives have been against spending for a long time." - FreeDumb

Is that why every Conservative president since Reagan has borrowed and spent Trillions of dollars?

"Borrowing a trillion dollars plus is the greatest thing we ever did." - Regaan Budget advisor.

"There is no deficit." - Rush Limbaugh

"Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." - Dick Cheney
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (6) Aug 09, 2011
"I'm with Rygg." - FreeDumb

Tards of a feather...
Ethelred
2.7 / 5 (7) Aug 09, 2011
Who says? You need to be more skeptical.
Since YOU have NEVER said you weren't a politician and only tried to attack SH credibility it is quite clear that you are one. When people try to evade like that it is usually, indeed almost always, the case that the person whose credibility is being attacked has nailed it. Thus it is unreasonable to assume that you are not a politician.

And I thank you for doing that for the umpteenth time.

'Progressives' used to call themselves 'liberal'.
No. Funny how you are willing to lie about so much but can't bring yourself to lie that you aren't a politician.

If this makes those who feel they are 'progressive' or 'liberal' uncomfortable, there may be hope for you.
You lies don't make me feel uncomfortable. Just tired of you.

Again I thank you for taking the bait. You did exactly what was expected. Attacked the source and hope no would notice that you did not say you weren't a politician.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 09, 2011
LIBERALS, or 'Progressives' as you call them, under Jean Chretien and his appointed finance minister Paul Martin in the mid-nineties to early 2000s that got our country's fiscal house IN ORDER. Under Martin's stewardship Canada eliminated its deficit, accumulated surpluses and began to pay down its debt.

It's not what I call them. It's what they call themselves. It sounds like Canada found some classical liberals. But then you still have socialist health care and tried to stop people from seeing private doctors.

What lies?
"Until FDR, "progressive" was actually the most common term used to describe the mainstream of American leftism. In what can be considered an early example of triangulation, FDR instead chose to call himself a "liberal," thereby poaching some of Hoover's turf while also distancing himself from the left-wing label "progressive." http://mydd.com/2...tymology
freethinking
1 / 5 (5) Aug 09, 2011
History lesson of Canada please see Reform Party of Canada. It was they that started up the debate about the deficit.

Though not the best source, it should remind Canadians how a small conservative voice made major changes in the Canadian deficit debate.
http://en.wikiped...f_Canada
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 09, 2011
And it was Newt Gingrich and Republicans who put a leash on liberals in the mid 90s.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 09, 2011
"History lesson of Canada please see Reform Party of Canada. It was they that started up the debate about the deficit." - FreeDumb

Well... No. The Liberals were the party that correctely faulted the Conservative Mulroney Government for the debt.

In part because of the debt, Mulroney and his Borrow and spend Conservative Ideology were discredited. He resigned as head of the Conservative party and fled to the U.S. His successor was voted out of office along with most of her party in the greates t loss of power in their parties history.

The Liberals then went on to produce and manage a surplus that greatly reduced Canada's debt burden.

During this time the Reform Party spent their time opposing the Liberal's policy of paying down the debt claiming that any surplus was overtaxation and that those taxes should be returned to the people rather than being used to pay down the debt.

Unlike America, borrow and spend Conservative Lunacy was rejeceted in Canada, to Canada's great joy.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 09, 2011
"And it was Newt Gingrich and Republicans who put a leash on liberals in the mid 90s." - RyggTard

Actually it was Newt Gingrich's Contract On America that shut down the federal government and greatly deminished his party and his standing in the party.

Gingrich is now seen as a worthless and dishonest fool.

Which is exactly what he has been all his adult life.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.6 / 5 (7) Aug 09, 2011
In an April 18'th sound bite on Conservative Rush Limbaugh's propaganda network, Christianne Amanpour stated, Reagan cut taxes, and the deficit went through the roof.

Limbaugh responded immediately and emphatically: It didn't.

Comparing the 1983 Reagan deficit of $207.7 billion to the 1980 Carter deficit of $73.1 billion, one sees that in three years Reagan increased the deficit by a factor of 2.84; triple in Limbaugh's arithmetic. Contrary to the lies told by Conservative Rush Limbaugh, Reagan tripled the deficit in three years.

Borrow and Spend Republicans have bankrupted America

I have never encountered a Conservative who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
I have never encountered a Conservative who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
I have. You must be young. American Conservativism didn't go batshit insane till Reagan became President. Most don't even have a clue that they are telling lies. Rush had to have know that he lied UNLESS he has lost his mind. The latter seems possible.

What lies?
This was just one amongst many.
And it was Newt Gingrich and Republicans who put a leash on liberals in the mid 90s.


And I want to point out that once again you had the opportunity to say that you weren't a politician and once again you attacked the messenger instead.

It couldn't be more clear that Skeptic Heretic was right. You a politician AND you post here on the taxpayers dime.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
If the govt can 'legally' plunder, why shouldn't the people?
"Economic Uncertainty Leading to Global Unrest"
http://www.cnbc.c...44073673
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 10, 2011
"For nearly five years weve had massive and unprecedented run ups in government spending and debt in the United States and around the world. Weve had vast expansion of government powers over banks, energy policy, financial markets, health care and other sectors. Weve had staggering and unprecedented monetary policy interventions across Europe and in the United States. All of which have produced no growth and lousy job numbers, with the likelihood that the debts may not be repaid as a result. And the charge is laid that a small cadre of congenitally ineffectual free market libertarians is the cause of it all."
http://opinion.fi...a-party/
Too bad socialists are too afraid to take credit for their accomplishments. After all, prosperity is not their objective, power and control is.
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
If the govt can 'legally' plunder, why shouldn't the people?
Thank you for that admission that you are wasting taxpayer's money when you post here.

Too bad socialists are too afraid to take credit for their accomplishments.
Too bad you aren't doing what you are paid to do instead of posting lies here.

Corruption is so popular with politicians that hate government. No wonder they call everyone but themselves corrupt.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 10, 2011
Don't worry:
"We Can't Even Cut Programs That Don't Work"
http://www.realcl...176.html

It's not surprising Ethel wants to continue lying. That's what being a 'progressive' is all about.
SH lies about me and Ethel repeats the lies. What a surprise!
Gawad
5 / 5 (3) Aug 10, 2011
History lesson of Canada please see Reform Party of Canada. It was they that started up the debate about the deficit.
Wow, the boy who gave up his brain tries to save face with a misleading reference to Refoooooorrrrmmm! (as we use to say 'round here). You know, FreeFromThinking, some of us were actually THERE. No brain, no face; shit, boy, you're starting to look like some kind of monster out of zombie B-movie!

Just the idea that you would try to co-opt what was so hard won by the Liberals at the time with such a LAME reference to a political party that was hardly even on the radar back in '94 makes me wonder if you're not actually suffering from organic brain damage. Do you have health insurence? If so, then USE IT!

The deficit debate actually started back in Trudeau's latter yrs. as PM. FAIL!

Chretien's were MAJORITY governments, meaning Refoooorm! had no real pull. FAIL!

In 1993 CND's credit rating was dropped to AA plus, THAT'S what made things get serious. FAIL!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
n 1993 CND's credit rating was dropped to AA plus, THAT'S what made things get serious. FAIL!

Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.
Javinator
5 / 5 (4) Aug 10, 2011
Too bad socialists are too afraid to take credit for their accomplishments. After all, prosperity is not their objective, power and control is.


That's what being a 'progressive' is all about.


So I feel like you don't know what a straw man is and why it's not an acceptable debate tactic to anyone who uses logic to form their responses (PS, above two quotes are straw man responses that you use).

Creating a "straw man" is when someone (take Ethelred in this case) makes an argument. You then construct a "straw man" to represent Ethelred. In this thread you use the terms progressive and socialist. You then assume the position of the "straw man" on either the topic at hand or another topic completely and attempt to refute that point (often with a link to a blog post or with a rhetorical question).

By doing this, you fail to engage in the actual debate/discussion.
Javinator
3 / 5 (2) Aug 10, 2011
Wow, the boy who gave up his brain tries to save face with a misleading reference to Refoooooorrrrmmm! (as we use to say 'round here).


You've been watching too much Air Farce ;)
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
I don't create straw people.
Ehtel and many others here are 'progressive' and do support socialism based upon what they write.
Socialism is as socialism does, not who they say they are.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
"The Federal Housing Finance Agency said Wednesday it is seeking input from investors on how to rent homes owned by government-controlled mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Federal Housing Administration."
http://hosted.ap....13-18-31

As the socialist turns....
Javinator
5 / 5 (7) Aug 10, 2011
Ehtel and many others here are 'progressive' and do support socialism based upon what they write.


But there is no slippery slope. When you start equating socialism, progressivism, communism, liberalism... There are different words for these -isms because they're different things. There may be some overlapping values, but that still does not equate them and using the terms interchangeably simply shows a lack of understanding for the debate.

Basically when you start telling someone what they're thinking, what they support, what they believe and who their heroes are ("progressive heroes" like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc), what you're doing is attempting to transfer the negative aspects of the progressive straw man you've created in your mind onto the person you're debating.

I've never agreed 100% with any party I've ever voted with. I don't think I know anyone in real life who does either. The straw man you've created, however, does. And that's who you're arguing with.
Gawad
not rated yet Aug 10, 2011
Wow, the boy who gave up his brain tries to save face with a misleading reference to Refoooooorrrrmmm! (as we use to say 'round here).


You've been watching too much Air Farce ;)

HEY! That's ROYAL CANADIAN Air Farce to you Javinator!

And good luck, man! And happy hunting and all that!
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
"If the govt can 'legally' plunder, why shouldn't the people?" - RyggTard

If government can legally kill it's "enemies" why can't the people?

If government can legally change the law then why can't the people?

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 10, 2011
This is excellent news indeed. Unless you like fire.

"The Federal Housing Finance Agency said Wednesday it is seeking input from investors on how to rent homes owned by government-controlled mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Federal Housing Administration." - RyggTard

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 10, 2011
"For nearly five years weve had massive and unprecedented run ups in government spending and debt in the United States and around the world" - RyggTard

Indeed. COnservative Pesident Bush Jr. added 5 trillion to the U.S. debt directly, and 4 trillion on top of that due to his debt funded war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Conservatives in Congress compounded their crimes by extending Bush's give away to the wealthy through extending his tax cuts.

Remember that bringing America to the brink of Bankruptcy has been a Libertarian/Randite and Conservative plan for the last 40 years.
freethinking
1 / 5 (8) Aug 10, 2011
Progressives love to re-write history, even Canadian History. I lived in Canada when the reform movement sprang up. The progressive media used the same tatics on them as the progressive media is doing now to the tea party.

Progressive tactic. Dismiss, lie, insult, deny, shout, riot.

FHA is the cause of so many people loosing their homes, then they turn around and rent the homes. Can this be said to be government enslaving people?
Gawad
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 10, 2011
Progressives love to re-write history, even Canadian History
Well, that's what you've maliciously just failed to do.

Maybe you haven't yet clued in, but anybody can look up the facts (Martin, Chretien, Canada's debt history) and *immediately* see you're full of it, as usual.

The bullshit you spew doesn't change what was actually done and by whom, freefromthinking. What a complete, total and utter hypocrite you are.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 10, 2011
because they're different things.

No they are not.
All support more govt control of private property and the subversion of the law to those ends.
As Hayek noted, it was very easy for Germans to support national socialism because the socialists/communists had already destroyed classical liberalism.
From the perspective of free markets and private property rights, 'liberals', 'progressives', socialists, communists, fascists, ... all want more govt control of private property. They may just disagree who will be wielding the power of govt.
A lion, a shark or a cobra are all different species, but they will all kill you if you are not careful.
Gawad
4.5 / 5 (8) Aug 10, 2011
n 1993 CND's credit rating was dropped to AA plus, THAT'S what made things get serious. FAIL!

Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.

I can tell you like that line. You slink around PhysOrg just waiting to pie us in the face with it, don't you ;)

O.k., how about about its corollary: Unregulated capitalism is great until everybody else runs out of money.

Yeah. I like that. It's about as pithy and as brilliant, eh?
Ethelred
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 10, 2011
It's not surprising Ethel wants to continue lying. That's what being a 'progressive' is all about.
Lying is for life and death or a good joke. You are neither. Not even a good joke.

SH lies about me and Ethel repeats the lies. What a surprise!
That is not saying you are not a politician. Such a simple thing for confirmed liar to do yet you can't bring yourself to do it. Odd that.

I don't claim to understand you behavior on this but you do keep doing it. Instead of saying you are not a politician you call the other person a liar. Bizarre even for a person that lies as much as you.

Ethelred
freethinking
1 / 5 (8) Aug 10, 2011
Progressives shout it is the conservatives fault we are in debt, not progressives spending more, and wanting to spend even more, than we make that is the problem.

Lying and progressives go hand in hand, like progressives and spending.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.9 / 5 (7) Aug 10, 2011
"The progressive media used the same tatics on them as the progressive media is doing now to the tea party." - FreeDumb

Translation: I didn't believe what I saw on the news because what was said was not what I wanted to hear, and reality wasn't what I wanted to see.

"FHA is the cause of so many people loosing their homes, then they turn around and rent the homes." - FreeDumb

It doesn't occurr to FreeDumb that if they actually owned their homes then they wouldn't have lost them.

Americans aren't very bright and most Americans that i've seen are incapable of adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing.

No wonder they can't balance their own matural budget. They can't even balance their own bank account..

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
"The bullshit you spew doesn't change what was actually done and by whom, freefromthinking." - Gawad

I have never encountered a freethinker Libertarian/Randit who wasn't a perpetual and congenital liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 10, 2011
A few seconds of research will show that most of your comments are based on ConservaTard fantasy (lies) rather than reality.

It is a fact of history that Virtually all of America's federal deb is due to Borrow and Spend Conservative Ideology.

"Progressives shout it is the conservatives fault we are in debt, not progressives spending more, and wanting to spend even more, than we make that is the problem." - FreeDumb

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 10, 2011
"Bankers like to call this creating new money. Indeed, it is the process of creating money out of thin air and then charging interest on it.

Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital, says the government is trying to perpetuate a phony economy based on borrowing and spending. The bond bubble will soon burst and will ultimately lead to a collapse of the dollar and an inflationary depression worse than anything any of us have ever seen. It will be an unmitigated disaster, warns Schiff.

Our rulers at the behest of the international bankers want an unmitigated disaster and have anointed Obama to deliver it. "
http://www.infowa...ne-deal/
freethinking
1 / 5 (10) Aug 11, 2011
being insulted by someone whose username initials are VD is hilarious. VD will you riot in the street when the government stops giving you money or expects something from you like your friends in England?
http://www.dailym...ths.html

Progressives VD and rioting seem to go hand in hand!
Javinator
4.2 / 5 (5) Aug 11, 2011
A lion, a shark or a cobra are all different species, but they will all kill you if you are not careful.


So now you're equating lions, sharks, and cobras? How does that analogy support your position of gross generalization? If anything it supports what I'm saying even more.

A shark, a lion, and a cobra are related is that they will all kill you if you're not careful. How else are they related? They're definitely not so closely related that I would refer to a shark as a lion or a cobra and vice versa.

Imagine the dumbstruck look on someone's face if you actually told them in real life that a shark, a cobra, and a lion were essentially the same thing because they all kill stuff and that the words are interchangeable.

Similarly, progressivism, communism, and liberalism are all related in some ways and different in others. It's because of their significant differences they shouldn't used interchangeably.
freethinking
1 / 5 (9) Aug 11, 2011
So you agree javinator that progressivism, communism, and liberalism are similar in their endings. They all lead to distruction.

One is poison, one will cut you in half, and one will rip you to shreds.

So the real question is communism the poison or is it progressivism or liberalism, and so on with cutting in half or ripping you to shreds.
emsquared
5 / 5 (5) Aug 11, 2011
A shark, a lion, and a cobra are related is that they will all kill you if you're not careful. How else are they related?

They are all related in that the hippo kill more than all three of them.

Thank you, that is all.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (5) Aug 11, 2011
A shark, a lion, and a cobra are related is that they will all kill you if you're not careful. How else are they related?

They are all related in that the hippo kill more than all three of them.

Thank you, that is all.
So, as I'm following this, the hippo represents religion am I right?
emsquared
5 / 5 (4) Aug 11, 2011
So, as I'm following this, the hippo represents religion am I right?

I was just throwing that in as a little bit of absurdism in a minor attempt to derail another mind-numbing political debate, but that's actually a very appropriate attribution.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 11, 2011
So, as I'm following this, the hippo represents religion am I right?

I was just throwing that in as a little bit of absurdism in a minor attempt to derail another mind-numbing political debate, but that's actually a very appropriate attribution.
Oh and I thought you were exemplifying the exactitude of word calculationisms. My mistake.
Ethelred
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 11, 2011
I would say that Marjon and Antithinking had gone downhill on this thread but since they started with absurd lies they actually are still the bottom.

When are you up for reelection Marjon?

Ethelred
Javinator
5 / 5 (5) Aug 11, 2011
So you agree javinator that progressivism, communism, and liberalism are similar in their endings. They all lead to distruction.


No, I really didn't say anything like that.

Here's a quick summary:

I agreed some dangerous animals can kill you. Then I said that just cause they have something in common doesn't mean they're the same animal. Then I said that those different political stances are related in some ways, but different in others.

Also: destruction.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 11, 2011
Then I said that those different political stances are related in some ways,

And those ways destroy individual liberty, private property and prosperity.
For those who truly care about individual liberty, private property, and prosperity, how they differ is immaterial.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Aug 11, 2011
The hippo represents the vegan socialist, vegetarian killer.
bluehigh
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 11, 2011
Science funding cutbacks morphs into greedy Hippos. So funny I'm in tears.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
From RgyggTard's Euro Capital link (5 man operation)

"If the U.S. dollar is falling like I believe it will. All that's going to change is who consumes what is produced. As the dollar loses value, and Americans become poorer, Americans naturally consume less. But as the dollar loses value, it loses value relative to other currencies. So people who earn those other currencies - who have those currencies in saving - now they are richer and because they are richer, they simply buy those products that Americans are not longer able to afford. The global economy continues, except we don't benefit from it to the extent we have been. Other people who have been living beneath their means suddenly benefit." - Euro Pacific Capital Inc.

Ahahahahah... Ya, I'd trust them to manage my money.

Great link to Libertarian Economic Lunacy RyggTard.

Thanx.

Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (8) Aug 12, 2011
Oh man.. This one is Religionist Libertarian classic... My predictions aren't wrong. They just haven't happened yet.

"The fact that (my predictions) they haven't happened yet, doesn't discredit their accuracy." - Libertarian KookTard Prophet - Euro Pacific Capital Inc.

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come." - Christian Kooktard Prophet - Bible
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 12, 2011
"And those ways destroy individual liberty, private property and prosperity." - RyggTard

Free and open trade - part of the Libertarian Religion - has destroyed the American manufacturing sector.

Free and open borders - part of the Libertarian Religion - would provide immense benefit to American corporations as cheap Mexican labor pours over the border displacing what remains of the American worker.

The Libertarian ideology is behind virtually every drop of economic acid that has been eating away at the U.S. economy and society for decades. From the attempt to bankrupt the nation, the destruction of America's manufacturing sector all the way down to the release of the mentally ill from hospitals onto the streets where they live homeless.

Libertarianism/Randiteism = Pure poison.

By the way RyggTard, you haven't explained to us why your hero Ayn Rand was a fan of a psychotic child murderer - whom she considered as a fine example of self interest at it's best, a "superman" to her.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 12, 2011
And RyggTard. You haven't explained to us why your mentor Ayn Rand - after years of claiming that the medical information linking smoking to cancer was a hogwash and a conspiracy to limit her freedom, died of lung cancer from her 2 pack a day habit, after receiving life extending medical care from the state, paid for at her request by state run medicare.

Why are you avoiding those questions RyggTard?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 12, 2011
"Progressives VD and rioting seem to go hand in hand!" - FreeDumb

It is a form of Democracy that results when the powerful use that power to define the law such that they can legally steal more wealth than the state citizens are willing to accept.

It is otherwise known as "Revolution". And that fire is coming to a American street corner near you.
Ethelred
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 12, 2011
The hippo represents the vegan socialist, vegetarian killer.


Captain Marjon of the SPS Atlas Jerked announced today that he would forgo the Capitalistic Wonders of Piracy and Kidnap to go on a voyage up the Nile to wage war against the hideous monsters Hippos.

"those very vile vegans verify the horror that is Progressive Vegetarian Eats. Their killing of humans that could have made excellent slaves for the Somali Engine of Commerce shows that there is no such thing as a vegetarian. They all munch on human flesh. Clearly the human vegans are following the example of these horrid. In the dark of night the members of Peta feast upon the flesh of the Children of AnnRandLand Somalia."

"There can be no doubt. They are both vegetarians and thus they must be be eaters of the humans. If anyone has ever even thought of eating a sprout or bowl of rice they cannot be trusted near Ann Rand Worshiping Somali Capitalists."

Yes there is more
Ethelred
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 12, 2011
"Unfortunately the diet of these vile Peta members has degraded their value on the Auction Block at AnnRandCity and thus we have to destroy them instead of making them useful members of the Somali Pirate Engine of Commerce by selling them on the slave bloc at AnnRand City, Somalia."

Captain Marjon then weighed anchor (twenty pounds) and headed north towards the Red Sea while the All Kazoo AnnRandMarchingBand played the Somali National Anthem. He plans on taking the Suez Canal hostage to force the British Navy to back off his fleet of Three Masted Canoes and assorted Zodiacs armed with massive brass 12 pounders firing copies of Atlas Jerked and Soda Fountain Jerked.

Ethelred
Javinator
5 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
For those who truly care about individual liberty, private property, and prosperity, how they differ is immaterial.


How the differ matters. Being willfully ignorant is never the answer, regardless of what side of the debate you're on.
Gawad
5 / 5 (2) Aug 12, 2011
Captain Marjon then weighed anchor (twenty pounds) and headed north towards the Red Sea while the All Kazoo AnnRandMarchingBand played the Somali National Anthem...

Haarrdie matie! And in the finest PhysOrg tradition, I'll like to nominate THAT for Post of the Week! Aye!
Gawad
5 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
The hippo represents the vegan socialist, vegetarian killer.

Well! At least no one can say you don't have some kind of sense of humour! I can just picture Bluehigh all cracked up there!
Gawad
5 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
Progressives shout it is the conservatives fault we are in debt, not progressives spending more, and wanting to spend even more, than we make that is the problem.

Lying and progressives go hand in hand, like progressives and spending.

It's obvious to anyone with a brain that both the left and right spent on their pet projects until they could spend no more, in both NA and Europe. On the one hand it could be generous social programs and entitlements, on the other outlandish military spending. This is the default behaviour for politicians of all stripes because they want to please their constituents and other supporters. Only jabbering monkeys with their ears plugged and eyes closed could claim one side blames it all on the other.

In America, however, conservatives HAVE engaged in massive spending WHILE cutting revenue sources, which means either they have become completely disconnected from reality or something like what VD suggests is actually motivating them.
Gawad
5 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
And now the TeaPublicans want deficit spending to stop COLD TURKEY and claim this won't have any significant impact on the economy.

This leads me to lean more toward the completely disconnected from reality thesis than the nefarious plan thesis because:

1. The above clearly falls under the "I have no idea how people, the economy or reality actually work, just how my [broken] Randian model tells me this should work" banner.

2. I'd think if they were trying to send the Fed into bankruptcy they'd just keep the spending going and/or try to remove the Feds ability to create more money...of course we *do* see the latter demand from some of them, though they claim it's about controlling inflation, eh Marjon?

Besides, even if they had such a nefarious plan, given TeaPublicans' apparently loose grip on reality I have trouble believing they could actually pull it off. Though they might well screw us all over trying.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
How the differ matters

If a dictator steals your property or if it is a democratic mob, your property has been stolen.
What is the difference?
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
Physicists ignored cold fusion research twenty years due their fear of future jobs and carriers. Now we are facing energetic and financial crisis because of high oil prices and these guys are just suffering the consequences of their shortsighted ignorance.

http://en.wikiped...sibility

http://www.natura...ine.html

http://www.wired...._pr.html
Gawad
5 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
How the differ matters

If a dictator steals your property or if it is a democratic mob, your property has been stolen.
What is the difference?

That's an, ah, let's call it a rather "reductive" way of putting it, though it's still really an attempt at the same kind of equivocation (specifically semantic shift equivocation). Now, I know it's quite irrelevant to you that this is universally decried as a logical fallacy and therefor a useless way to make an argument. But hey, even if it were, that wouldn't save you here, because EVEN IN THOSE TERMS there's a fundamental qualitative difference.

It's that in a democracy you are part of the mob that "steals" your property. You may even have supported the "theft" by voting for or making use of the services the "theft" pays for.

And if you didn't vote or USE any of those and can't deal with the cost ("theft"), Christ man, SOMALIA AWAITS. It's CALLING to you, Marjon. GO THERE. Surely there's a dime to be made on the famine!
Gawad
5 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
Think about it, Marjon (Hell, I'm sure you have!): you could convert to Islam and have multiple wives (and they'll never be overweight!), arm yourself to the teeth (you'll need it!), even build up your own army (oops, 'scuse me, I meant "defense force"). You said you want the right to print your own money and used Somalia as an example, well why wait? You can do that right now over there!

Come on, man, SOMALIA: your own cache of weapons, your own cache of women, Hell, your own cache of cash! You'll be able to screw around with the girls on piles of money while firing AK-47s into the air, laughing at us who are still back in NA and Europe filling out our INCOME TAX forms!

It will be like PARADISE, man!

Can't you hear them calling? "...Marjon, come and play with us...for ever and ever and ever..."

Now come on lad, GO! Just pleas don't bring your iPad.

I'll be filling out my income tax form, thanks!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
If it is wrong for you to steal my property, why is it right for a gang to pass laws making it 'legal' to steal my property?
Conversely, as the rioters in the UK demonstrate, if the state (the legal mob) doesn't respect private property, why should an ad hoc mob respect private property?
Gawad
5 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
If it is wrong for you to steal my property, why is it right for a gang to pass laws making it 'legal' to steal my property?
Your still equivocating: it's not "theft" that's the point. You can call it "theft" if you like and I can call you a rock star, but that won't turn you into Bono.

You're one of the gang members. Not so in a dictatorship. You get a voice. That's the price for being in one of the many variants of democracy. It's the price of being a member of society. GROW UP. It's almost like you're still 6yrs old and all that matters is being king of the hill.
Conversely, as the rioters in the UK demonstrate,
HOW the HELL did they demonstrate THAT:
if the state (the legal mob) doesn't respect private property, why should an ad hoc mob respect private property?
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--an ad hoc mob does not act that way. HOW CAN THAT NOT BE BLEEDINGLY OBVIOUS!? WTF is WRONG with you?
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
a democratic mob, your property has been stolen.
Oh great Captain of Piracy based theft it is NOT a mob if it is democratic voting based on laws. If you don't like the laws you can vote with your feet.

So go, go raise that vast fleet of rubber duckies, mount those arcaic smooth bore cannons, and join the other pirates in the warm waters of Somalia where theft is called commerce by YOU.

Taxes are part of living in decent society instead Somalia which you made many idiotic posts that show it as a AnnRandWonderLand. Since you simply don't want to pay the cost of living here quit stealing taxpayer money, shirking your duty as an elected official by posting here at work AND GO to your WonderLand.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--

Agreed to by law?
So a 50% 1 majority (a mob ) can pass laws authorizing the state to plunder the wealth of 50%-1?
That is the definition of 'agreed to'?

"President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law suffered a setback on Friday when an appeals court ruled that it was unconstitutional to require all Americans to buy insurance or face a penalty."
http://ca.news.ya...777.html

The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court. What law?
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
WTF is WRONG with you?
He feels a smidgeon of guilt for stealing from his constituents by posting here on their dime. This tiny, very tiny, bit of guilt has festered in what passes for his mind and driven him to tell more lies to cover up that tiny bit of reality that infests his otherwise reality free brain.

Or maybe he is just a green and scaly troll.

Ethelred
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 12, 2011
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--

Agreed to by law?

"President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law suffered a setback on Friday when an appeals court ruled that it was unconstitutional to require all Americans to buy insurance or face a penalty."
http://ca.news.ya...777.html

The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court. What law?
Yes and another court ruled in the opposite direction, which you know. Only one more court to go. He'll probably win, in which case he WILL be following the law.

As has been pointed out the uninsured ARE consuming health care which already costs everybody more. Why not make them pay for it? That sounds very unprogressive (regressive?) to me. Nicht wahr?

Hey - maybe marjon is a JUDGE? From Scranton??
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"when the law, by means of its necessary agent, force,
imposes upon men a regulation of labor, a method or a subject of
education, a religious faith or creedthen the law is no longer
negative; it acts positively upon people. It substitutes the will of
the legislator for their own wills; the initiative of the legislator
for their own initiatives. When this happens, the people no
longer need to discuss, to compare, to plan ahead; the law does
all this for them. Intelligence becomes a useless prop for the
people; they cease to be men; they lose their personality, their
liberty, their property."
"Nothing can enter the public treasury
for the benefit of one citizen or one class unless other citizens
and other classes have been forced to send it in. If"
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"The law can be an instrument of
equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to
other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of
plunder.
With this in mind, examine the protective tariffs, subsidies,
guaranteed profits, guaranteed jobs, relief and welfare schemes,
public education, progressive taxation, free credit, and public
works. You will find that they are always based on legal plunder,
organized injustice."
"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses
the distinction between government and society. As a
result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done
at all."
http://www.physor...firstCmt
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 12, 2011
""Actually, what is the political struggle that we witness? It is
the instinctive struggle of all people toward liberty. And what is
this liberty, whose very name makes the heart beat faster and
shakes the world? Is it not the union of all libertiesliberty of
conscience, of education, of association, of the press, of travel, of
labor, of trade? In short, is not liberty the freedom of every person
to make full use of his faculties, so long as he does not harm
other persons while doing so? Is not liberty the destruction of all
despotismincluding, of course, LEGAL despotism?"
"It must be admitted that the tendency of the human race
toward liberty is largely thwarted, especially in France. This is
greatly due to a fatal desirelearned from the teachings of
antiquitythat our writers on public affairs have in common:
They desire to set themselves above mankind in order to
arrange, organize, and regulate it according to their fancy."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
Hey - maybe marjon is THIS guy:
http://www.youtub...a_player

-An outstanding example of a free marketeer-
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
"Usually, however, these gentlementhe reformers, the
legislators, and the writers on public affairs do not desire to
impose direct despotism upon mankind. Oh no, they are too
moderate and philanthropic for such direct action. Instead, they
turn to the law for this despotism, this absolutism, this omnipotence.
They desire only to make the laws."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
If a Capitalist steals your property or if it is a Libertarian mob, your property has been stolen.
What is the difference?
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (6) Aug 12, 2011
I love the posts Pirate Captain Marjon makes. They are dependent on the paranoid delusions of other sociopaths. People like Marjon that want the society but refuse to contribute to it.

Of course in Marjon's case he is a reverse contributor since he steal from his constituents and could never get their vote if they knew what he was doing with their money on this site.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"As long as these (socialist) ideas prevail, it is clear that the responsibility of government is enormous. Good fortune and bad fortune, wealth and destitution, equality and inequality, virtue and
viceall then depend upon political administration. It is burdened
with everything, it undertakes everything, it does everything;
therefore it is responsible for everything.
If we are fortunate, then government has a claim to our gratitude; but if we are unfortunate, then government must bear the blame."

"In regulating industry, the government has contracted to
make it prosper; otherwise it is absurd to deprive industry of its
liberty. And if industry now suffers, whose fault is it?"

http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"Mr. de Saint-Cricq would extend his philanthropy only to some of the industrial groups; he would demand that the law control the consumers to benefit the producers.
Mr. Considerant would sponsor the cause of the labor groups; he would use the law to secure for them a guaranteed minimum of clothing, housing, food, and all other necessities of life.
Mr. Louis Blanc would sayand with reasonthat these minimum guarantees are merely the beginning of complete fraternity;
he would say that the law should give tools of production
and free education to all working people.
Another person would observe that this arrangement would still leave room for inequality; he would claim that the law should give to everyoneeven in the most inaccessible hamlet
luxury, literature, and art.
All of these proposals are the high road to communism..."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"....legislation will then bein fact, it already isthe battlefield for the fantasies and greed of everyone."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
If a Capitalist steals your property or if it is a Libertarian mob, your property has been stolen.

The difference is that capitalists must persuade and no such Libertarian mob has never existed.
The same can't be said of socialist mobs, or 'progressive' mobs or...
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
"Physicists ignored cold fusion research twenty years due their fear of future jobs and carriers." - CalliTard

No they didn't.

You are living in some kind of Tard fantasy land.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
RyggTard apparently doesn't have a clue as to how his own government works. Typical for a TeaPublican.

He can educate himself starting here.

http://www.votesm...1_02.php

"So a 50% 1 majority (a mob ) can pass laws authorizing the state to plunder the wealth of 50%-1?" - RyggTard

"The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court." - RyggTard

Poor RyggTard. He just can't manage to figure out how the U.S. legal system works either. Typical for a TeaPubican.

One court has ruled in favor, on appeal this court has ruled against. The decision will be appealed again to the supreme court, and until that time the government may act in accordance with the law in question or may be bound by order of the court, until the appeal process completes.

I often see this kind of accusation from Conservatives - claims that party xyz has violated the law or the constitution when in reality the decision is pending in court.
Gawad
5 / 5 (2) Aug 12, 2011
The STATE is still legally BOUND--that's how they respect it: by taking only what is agreed to in LAW--

Agreed to by law?
So a 50% 1 majority (a mob ) can pass laws authorizing the state to plunder the wealth of 50%-1?
That is the definition of 'agreed to'?
NO. It means 50% & 1 *within the bounds laid out by a democracy's Constitution and Bill/Charter of Rights* (if it has one of the latter). It's those, as upheld by a strong justice system, that prevent your simple 50% & 1 from degenerating into mob rule. That's why we have them.

"President Barack Obama's signature healthcare law suffered a setback on Friday..."
Well thanks for making my point!

The president has no plans to follow the LAW. The court has ruled and the president ignores the Court. What law?

Lies, Marjon. You know very well this is STILL working its way around the legal arena: "The legality of the individual mandate...is widely expected to be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court."
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
Of course when the Conservatards go on to lose the court case they claim that the loss is a result of corrupt judges who don't follow the constitution or some other such nonsense.

I have never encountered a Conservative who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar. RyggTard provides a fine example of this observation.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011

"The Law - We hold from God the gift which includes all others. This gift is lifephysical, intellectual, and moral life" - RyggTard

Isn't the first line of your reference a violation of the separation of church and state that is part of the U.S. constitution?

"Life, faculties, productionin other words, individuality,
liberty, propertythis is man." - RyggTard

Doesn't life, faculties, production and individuality, liberty and property also define every other living thing? Or do you seek to remove those properties from some living things in order to make an artificial distinction between man and nature?

If say a minority of mankind are prevented from property ownership or disavows such on their own, then by the definition posted above they are not part of the "kingdom of man."

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011

"Each of us has a natural rightfrom Godto defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two." - RyggTard

That is interesting because it means that the police have no right to disarm an armed suspect, it means that the state has no right to collect taxes - in direct contradiction to your own Constitution, that a home owner with a strategically placed property can block any form of commercial development, that a police officer can not confiscate items at a crime scene as evidence that a crime has been committed. etc. etc. etc...

Your Libertarian view seems highly unworkable to me and probably every other person who has more than 2 neurons in their skull.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011

"Man can live and satisfy his wants only by ceaseless labor;
by the ceaseless application of his faculties to natural resources." - RyggTard

On the contrary. Many men and women today live off the returns from vast private sources of capital that are managed by others for their masters benefit.

Are you denying that these people exist? Are stock traders and the super wealthy not examples of such people?

Further your claim is that all people toil to exploit natural resources. Yet not only do the groups above not toil, they don't work with natural resources.

For that matter, neither do store clerks, or shop owners, or accountants or any other person who works in the ever growing service economy.

Your appreciation for basic economics seems very child like in it's grand pronouncements, false assumptions, and copious omissions.

Poor RyggTard. Poor Poor Child.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
RyggTard... Can you apply this paragraph in your source document to the ongoing Riots in England?

If you can't then I assure you that I can.

"Men naturally rebel against the injustice of which they are victims. Thus, when plunder is organized by law for the profit of those who make the law, all the plundered classes try somehow to enterby peaceful or revolutionary meansinto the making of laws. According to their degree of enlightenment, these plundered classes may propose one of two entirely different purposes when they attempt to attain political power: Either they may wish to stop lawful plunder, or they may wish to share in it" - RyggTard
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
within the bounds laid out by a democracy's Constitution and Bill/Charter of Rights

What if the courts change the intent of the law?
Socialists claim the 'general welfare' clause enables their welfare state.
If one studies the meaning of the term, there is no way anyone could interpret their intent was to redistribute wealth.

How does class warfare promote 'the general welfare'?
Bastiat was correct. The law must be limited to defending the individual rights of all, not trying to make everyone 'equal'.
Socialism leads to the equal sharing of misery as Churchill said.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"Socialists claim the 'general welfare' clause enables their welfare state." - RyggTard

I agree with you on that point Ryggtard.

Clearly the American founding fathers were statists if they were concerned with the general welfare if the state.

However I don't think the imagined welfare programs for the poor.

But then they didn't envision Ebola, Intercontinental Jet travel, The Automobile, Or the Electric Motor, Radio, Television, Vacuum tubes, Transistors, plastic, etc.

Hell, they barely had printing presses. They were operating in a culture that was hardly evolved from the bone knives and bear skin level of technology.


ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
The Founding Fathers knew of diseases like bubonic plague that killed millions.
Barely had printing presses?
Gutenberg popularized that technology in the 1400s.
Ships were sailing the world. All sorts of new technology was being invented. Jefferson did his share as did Ben Franklin.

And of course they understood the destructive power of the modern welfare state. It had been attempted many times throughout history.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"The law must be limited to defending the individual rights of all, not trying to make everyone 'equal'. " - RyggTard

So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
Gawad
5 / 5 (1) Aug 12, 2011
Socialism leads to the equal sharing of misery as Churchill said.
Socialism? Socialist? Did you find a socialist wandering about somewhere? Oh, wait, I thought we were talking about democracy! Oh, Marjon, that's just an other logical fallacy of yours. Equating communism to socialism and then socialism to DEMOCRACY. Wow. Does anyone vote in your Rand Wonderland? Are there any LAWS? Take two aspirin and post us in the morning.

As far as Churchill he also said democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried. And all the others includes Randpark Wonderland now as that, according to you at least is in force in Somalia.

Unregulated capitalism is great until everybody else runs out of money. See, that's what your Rand Wonderland leads to: Abject misery for most, paranoid happiness for a tiny few.

It's DEMOCRACY, Marjon, not Heaven. But your Rand Wonderland basically comes across as some kind of combined Wild West Jungle Hell.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
"All sorts of new technology was being invented. Jefferson did his share as did Ben Franklin." - RyggTard

Yes, Franklin flew his kite - well he didn't it was a lie - but he did, he would have shown that lightning was really that new thing they called static electricity.

"Ships were sailing the world." - RyggTard

With emphasis on the word "sail" since the first steam engine wasn't patented until 1698 and the first steam ship didn't exist until 1787. When was America's declaration of independents?

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
"Barely had printing presses?
Gutenberg popularized that technology in the 1400s." - RyggTard

Well, it was invented in 1440, but wasn't popular until the mid 1500's.

Until the mid 1700's there was no significant change in press design.

It wasn't until the 1800's that someone actually made a printing press out of iron. rather than with just scraps of wood held together with metal pins.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
Poor RyggTard doesn't comprehend that he is bound by a Social Contract between himself and his fellow countrymen.

According to Thomas Hobbes, human life would be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" in the absence of political order and law. In its absence, we would live in a state of nature, where each person has unlimited natural freedoms, including the "right to all things" and thus the freedom to plunder, rape, and murder; there would be an endless "war of all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes). To avoid this, free men establish political community i.e. civil society through a social contract in which each gains security in return for subjecting himself absolutely to an absolute Sovereign.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 12, 2011
Interesting. Isn't it a "civil society" what George Soros spends his time and money promoting?

And isn't the promotion of a "Civil Society" why Republicans, Libertarians and Randites hate him?

And hasn't the rise of Republican/Libertarian/Randite power been coincident with the loss of Civility in American society and a movement toward Fascism?

Do I see a pattern here?

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 12, 2011
Why don't the socialists demand Soros pay more taxes, or Teresa Hines?

If you all hadn't noticed I was quoting Bastiat' THE LAW.

So, VD, and the other socialists here, please justify your support of LAW that uses its force to take wealth. Justify your support of legal plunder as Bastiat described. When will your support of legal plunder end? As Bastiat notes, does it end when the govt confiscates enough wealth so all can have fine food and fine art?

Instead of challenging Bastiat's themes, which have been well demonstrated, the 'progressive' tries to shout down the opposition. Which, of course, means even the 'progressive' can't defend his socialism in the face of daily failure.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
"Why don't the socialists demand Soros pay more taxes, or Teresa Hines?" - RyggTard

Probably because Liberals don't demand any tax rate or policy designed to target a specific individual.

You are fond of creating straw men RyggTard.

"If you all hadn't noticed I was quoting Bastiat' THE LAW. " - RyggTard

And so was I. I note that you quoted from Bastiat selectively and are refusing to answer the obvious problems with his childish, irrational, polemic.

Here.. I'll give you a second chance to respond....
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
No response yet RyggTard?

What is keeping you?

"The law must be limited to defending the individual rights of all, not trying to make everyone 'equal'. " - RyggTard

So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
Egad, what a troll fest...

Vendicar, your assessment of Republicans is well-justified. However, you're missing the other 50% of the problem: the Democrats. Once upon a time they at least pretended to represent the little guy; ever since Clinton they are a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street (i.e. Republican-Lite.)

We *ARE* in Great Depression 2.0. We cannot inflate out of it. Our government is not allowed to "print" money: it can only _borrow_ money. Every dollar printed, was only able to be printed because an interest-bearing U.S. Treasury Note was sold to bring it into existence. Our currency is debt-backed. Our debt grows faster than our income, and faster than it can generate inflation. We have in fact crossed the line, already, where each additional dollar spewed forth by the Treasury generates less than 1 dollar gain in GDP.

We are in a debt-spiral, our entire financial sector is bankrupt, and our Federal Reserve is fresh-out of ammunition.

ctd.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
Children have the right to life, the right to be protected, don't they VD?
That is the essence of The Law, defense of life, liberty and property.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
Our economic policy has been to trash the Unions, open up "Free Trade", and export our industries into foreign nations. We are beset not only by deficit-spending on the Federal level, but also by chronic trade deficits. The former is an indirect transfer of wealth out of the country (to foreign bond-holders, most notably China and Japan); the latter is a direct transfer of wealth out of the country (to foreign exporters.)

The developing world is developing and thriving, in no small part thanks to our economic policies. Ever since Reagan, we have been either knowingly or unintentionally bleeding ourselves dry, so that the rest of the world may feed on our vitae.

Whatever the government does or doesn't do, Americans can't compete with indentured servants harnessed into labor camp-like factories in China, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so on. We can't compete until our wages fall to the level of those indentured servants ( a little more to compensate for transportation overhead.)

ctd.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
We won't be able to compete as long as we want clean water and fresh air: because these things cost money and raise the cost of doing business. We won't be able to compete until our water and air are as filthy as those in the developing world.

We won't be able to compete as long as we want safe and healthy working environment, an eight hour work-day, and a five-day work-week.

Either we devolve into a banana republic -- at which point we will finally be able to compete with all the other banana republics -- or we bring back Tariffs. Specifically, environmental and wage parity tariffs. Yes, that would instantly make all of our "cheap" goods vastly less affordable. They've only been "cheap" because they were being paid for by draining us of our wealth through the backdoor of "free trade".

In the meantime, we masked our economic bleed-out by blowing bubbles. Tech bubble under Clinton, housing under Bush, stocks under Obama. All of it futile, and only compounding the damage.

ctd.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
We also "thrived" despite our economic bleed-out, by running up debts. Not just government debts: private debt has grown exponentially as well. People ran up credit cards, and paid for increasingly overpriced housing by borrowing increasingly obscene amounts of money. The U.S. and global economies were widely and openly heralded as a credit to the almighty American Consumer. A CREDIT, indeed, as it was all just one gigantic ongoing CREDIT bubble. One started by Reagan, and growing cancerously, pervasively, metastatically ever more lethal across all aspects and facets of our economy.

We got here thanks to several decades of economic Ponzi schemes.

In reality, Great Depression 2.0 was brought about exactly through the same mechanisms and for the same reasons as the original Great Depression: a "Gilded Age" enjoyed for a short while at the crushing cost of too much systemic debt. And just like with the original Great Depression, this one will take decades to work through.

ctd.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
Pinkie, credit bubbles are created by the govt with a fiat currency and the 'progressive' Federal Reserve.
You are beginning to sound like Ross Perot or Buchanan.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
Sooner or later, we will have to start by recognizing the bankruptcy of Wall Street. Every single one of our major banks is broke. The "assets" they are hiding on their balance sheets, have fantasy valuations that bear no semblance to reality. Citibank, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Chase Manhattan, you name them -- they are all broke. When the inevitability of this recognition finally dawns, the DOW and S&P500 will drop back to where they were before Reagan came into office (inflation-adjusted.)

Yes, we will have massive unemployment. 30-40% is virtually guaranteed now, and the longer we continue to play tricks and kick the can, the worse it will eventually be when we have to square up and eat the beans.

BOTH Republicans AND Democrats are owned by the very mega-banks that would be annihilated. Yet truth will be revealed the instant our creditors recognize us as the broke thieving grifters that we are, and cut us off. Going cold-turkey after a 30-year bender is a real b*tch...
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
And, of course, Pinkie won't blame the system, the govt control of the economy.
Nor will he recognize comparative advantage.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
Children have the right to life, the right to be protected, don't they VD?


I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I await your answer.
PinkElephant
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
@troll,

I blame you, and Vendicar, and everyone like you. Ideological tools shouting partisan inanities past each other, while utterly oblivious to the actual reality. Both of you great shining examples of what money in politics can do to presumably initially intact human brain.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
"Our economic policy has been to trash the Unions, open up "Free Trade", and export our industries into foreign nations. " - Pink Elephant

Those were the Economic policies that Libertarian/Randite think tanks were pushing for all through the 70's and 80's.

"Whatever the government does or doesn't do, Americans can't compete with indentured servants harnessed into labor camp-like factories in China, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so on." - Pink Elephant

This fact was repeatedly raised by progressives during the 80's and the response of the Republicans and Libertarians was to question the patriotism of the person raising the issue.

How dare anyone say that intelligent hard working Americans would not be able to compete against the backward slovenly inferiors infesting the other nations they proclaimed.

In their view America would lose it's manufacturing sector but that was OK because America would gain jobs in the knowledge based economy. Kause Amerkans is them smardt.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
I answered, many times. The purpose of the law is organized defense of life, liberty and property.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
This fact was repeatedly raised by progressives during the 80's
It was paid lip service. But the politicos are very adept at saying one thing, then doing something else when nobody's looking. Ironically, the person to actually try to champion it in a serious fashion was a flaming Libertarian (Ross Perot.) He was laughed out the door -- by BOTH parties.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
"We also "thrived" despite our economic bleed-out, by running up debts." - Pinkie

Tax Cuts And 'Starving The Beast'
The most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history.

http://www.forbes...ett.html
PinkElephant
4 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
Tax Cuts And 'Starving The Beast'
The most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history.
Yes, yes, but what about Free Trade? Clinton championed it. His corporate-owned DNC swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. Remember the "Policy of Engagement" with China (more like the "Policy of Sell-Out")? All of them Randite TeaParticans, by your interpretation, then?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 13, 2011
Pinkie, it has been people like Adam Smith, Bastiat, Hayek, Mises who have been stating reality.
It is the socialists who have chosen to disregard reality to build their utopia. Are you angry for buying into the socialist fantasies Pinkie?

Hayek's Road to Serfdom is dedicated to the socialists of all parties.

BTW, tariffs made the 30s depression worse.

"In short, it was at a precarious time of depression that the Hoover administration chose to hobble international trade, injure the American consumer, and cripple the American farmers' export markets by raising tariffs higher than their already high levels. Hoover was urged to veto the SmootHawley Tariff by almost all the nation's economists, in a remarkable display of consensus, by the leading bankers, and by many other leaders. The main proponents were the Progressive bloc, the three leading farm organizations, and the American Federation of Labor. "
http://mises.org/...ter9.asp

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
Reading this: http://mises.org/...er9.asp,
Obama is following the failed example set by Hoover.
PinkElephant
4.7 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
Tax Cuts And 'Starving The Beast'
The most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history.
Other than the evisceration of our manufacturing base, another huge reason why government is such a huge force in our economy these days, is because all the private actors are flat-broke. Too much leverage and too cute by a ton "financial innovation", that blew up in their faces. It wasn't due to any "Starving" of any "Beast". More like over-feeding the beast of Deregulation and financial gamesmanship, while turning a blind eye to all the fraud and theft and criminality that has become endemic to the system.

All of it: a set of BIPARTISAN "accomplishments".
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
all the private actors are flat-broke.

Who made them flat broke? A govt that is a huge force in the economy maybe?
What deregulation? Freddie and Fannie ARE govt agencies. They were required, by law, to purchase a certain quantity of mortgages.
It's good you are not happy Pinkie, but you need to look a little deeper for the blame. Maybe in the mirror?
PinkElephant
4.8 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
people like Adam Smith, Bastiat, Hayek, Mises who have been stating reality.
Every single one of them would've argued for deregulation and free trade, with the same exact disastrous results.
BTW, tariffs made the 30s depression worse.
Removal of tariffs makes sense only for trading PARTNERS who are equally COMPETENT. When one of the "partners" uses SLAVE LABOR and POISONS its own land with the EXPLICIT goal of destroying the economic capacity on the other side of the trade equation and thus make them utterly dependent upon it for all production -- in that case, lack of tariffs to mitigate such ECONOMIC WARFARE is a policy of disaster. It is nothing short of TREASON, which is a point on which I agree with Vendicar. I just don't lay the blame exclusively on Republicans, because Democrats are EQUALLY guilty.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
Who made them flat broke?
The Free Market did. When there are no rules, the meanest, baddest Brigand takes all, and runs away with it to some tax haven with no extradition treaty. Cutthroat capitalism respects no law, and ultimately it is exceptionally good at cutting its own throat.
A govt that is a huge force in the economy maybe?
Now it is, because it stepped in to hide the reality of economic contraction engendered by 30 years of self-destructive economic policies. Policies YOU and your ideological idols champion the loudest.
What deregulation?
We've been over this many times, troll. Repeal of Glass-Steagall, for one. Deregulation of derivatives, for another.
Freddie and Fannie ARE govt agencies.
And were minority players in the housing market, all the way until it started reaching such a crescendo that they had to step in to keep it going just a little longer.
hush1
1 / 5 (1) Aug 13, 2011
And no fanfare or extras for me, please. Don't make that extra effort or expense (like in the case of Usama). I'll swim to that middle spot of ocean designated for me - the cost is covered by my universal health care. :)

This is a dangerous thread. Have at it, I'm out before I'm in.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
"Yes, yes, but what about Free Trade? Clinton championed it. His corporate-owned DNC swallowed it hook, line, and sinker" - pinkie

Clinton signed NAFTA, the NA part stands for "North American". And for the most part, NAFTA has been beneficial to the U.S.

NAFTA isn't the pernicious trade policies pushed by the Libertarians and Conservatives who wholesale promoted the transfer of America's manufacturing sector to Asia primarily.

http://www.youtub...x1C_S6ls
http://www.youtub...=related
http://www.youtub...amp;NR=1
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
"Other than the evisceration of our manufacturing base, another huge reason why government is such a huge force in our economy these days, is because all the private actors are flat-broke." - Pinkie

If by private actors you mean citizens then yes they are flat broke, but they have been on the borrow and spend track for years, living beyond their means to purchase products that are hawked via dishonest corporate advertising that is found on every conceivable surface, products that are designed by corporations to fail to provide for future sales.

All the while the landfills are overflowing with these shoddy products.

Other than government, there have never been other "actors" who have came to the aid of the poor or the impoverished, or even the average citizen to protect them from Corporate Power. And as the Republicans have taken down those protections, the American People have begun to become the victim of what is now Legalized - anti-social - corporate behavior.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
Are the Liberals completely free from stain?

No of course not. There have been mistakes, errors in the underlying ideology, and some corruption.

But the fact is, the vast majority of the Nation's problems are the direct result of Republican policy as driven by Libertarian /Randite Liedeology.

If I were to provide attribution for America's ills, it would be 95% the result of Republican action based on Libertarian/Randite ideology and 5% Liberal error - primarily a lack of cohesion, but some true policy errors.

To treat both sides as being equally culpable in America's rapid decline is intellectually criminal in itself.

And the Conservatives/Libertarians/Randites continue to pump their corrosive, poison into America.

You need look no further than the TeaPublican demand for an immediate balancing of Federal Expenditures - These moves were championed by Wall Street Trader and Traitor Rick Santelli - these are demands that would have added another 30 million to the unemployed.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
The problem with America is that there are too many Santelli's who are in positions of power.

http://www.youtub...=related
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
"Who made them flat broke?" - RyggTard

The invisible hand of the marketplace did. By slyly convincing them that the defective crap that they were being sold by Corporate America were quality products. And by selling them a vision of personal consumption that was unsustainable, but advertised as average or even below average.

Consume, consume, consume, that was sold as the American way. Can't afford to keep up with the Jones's? Corporations offer easy credit to assist in the consumption, and market the credit as "free money".

It was no different than a crack dealer giving away some of his product to establish a market for himself. An act that is perfectly acceptable under Libertarian/Randite ideology both in terms of strategy and product.

Isn't that right Tard Boy?

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
"Freddie and Fannie ARE govt agencies. They were required, by law, to purchase a certain quantity of mortgages." - RyggTard

Nope. No such law exists. You are a Liar.

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
"Pinkie, it has been people like Adam Smith, Bastiat, Hayek, Mises who have been stating reality." - RyggTard

Bastiat and Hayek and Mises argued for unregulated commerce national and international. Something that is now recognized as being one of the principle reasons for America's rapid economic decline.

That you would hold these fools up as examples of valid economic reasoning is proof of your exceptional dishonesty or exceptional disconnect from reality.

As Regulations have been removed from the U.S. marketplace jobs have gone east, and the economy has collapsed due to corruption that was previously prevented from manifesting by those regulations.

The regulation failure that caused America's current economic crisis wasn't the first. The deregulation of the savings and loan industries by the Inept Reagan administration comes to mind - another failure that cost the American Taxpayer trillions of dollars. All Championed by Libertarians/Randites of course.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
"It wasn't due to any "Starving" of any "Beast"." - Pinky

You mean the Bush tax cuts that turned the Clinton Surplus into a 440 billion per year deficit in 3 years didn't harm the American Economy?

The extension of those tax cuts - forced by the Repubicans and championed by Libertarian propaganda groups - didn't have the effect of removing 1 trillion dollars from federal receipts over the next 5 years?

Bush didn't fun his 4 trillion dollar war crimes with borrowed money?

You know the fastest way to starve a beast is to work it hard while depriving it of calories.

That is what the Republicans have been doing - working government hard - while at the same time cutting taxes so that bankruptcy comes sooner.

"We must manufacture an 'economic' crisis in order to assure that there is no alternative to a smaller government." - Jeb Bush Imprimus Magazine 1995.

As you can see from that quote, the Republican plan to bankrupt America has been in the works for a long time.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
Well said, and exactly in alignment with what was stated by Ralph Nader in one of the links I provided above.

"Removal of tariffs makes sense only for trading PARTNERS who are equally COMPETENT. When one of the "partners" uses SLAVE LABOR and POISONS its own land with the EXPLICIT goal of destroying the economic capacity on the other side of the trade equation and thus make them utterly dependent upon it for all production -- in that case, lack of tariffs to mitigate such ECONOMIC WARFARE is a policy of disaster. It is nothing short of TREASON, which is a point on which I agree with Vendicar." - Pinkie
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
Ethelred
3 / 5 (5) Aug 13, 2011
"Barely had printing presses?
You went a bit overboard. Again.

Ben Franklyn WAS a printer. And he did fly the kite. The fairy story is the lighting bold striking the kite. That didn't happen. He lived rather a bit longer because of the that.

Of course Ben also pushed civic health and a national bank. He was all for lending via the government.

Marjon is careful to avoid this reality. Then again he seriously reality deficient at all times. Especially when he is up for election. None of this crap he posts gets mentioned.

Ethelred
hush1
not rated yet Aug 13, 2011
You sunk (at sea!)over a trillion dollars in one human being: Usama.
And are still at it.

For that alone, you all deserve to fail, if not die.
Your math and your politics make no sense and
typifies this thread.
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
Hush1 it would help if you gave us a clue at to who that was pointed at. This thread is so full of crap it is rather hard to distinguish just who you were replying to.

I sure can't figure it out.

Are you sure you want to deal with this? I am here to make fun of Marjon. He makes for good comedy.

Ethelred
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Aug 13, 2011
You sunk (at sea!)over a trillion dollars in one human being: Usama.
And are still at it.

For that alone, you all deserve to fail, if not die.
Your math and your politics make no sense and
typifies this thread.
lol
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 13, 2011
"The GSEs' underwriting standards did not become more lax because of a lack of government regulation. Rather, the government pushed the GSEs to lower their standards in order to increase the availability of home mortgages for low-income Americans. "
"In 1996, the quota was set at 40%, and it continued to rise until 2008 when it reached 56%. Many commentators have argued that through these regulations, the government was promoting lower lending standards. The lower standards made it possible for nearly anyone to get a mortgage, even individuals with poor credit histories and little income."
"Today, the private market plays an even smaller role in the mortgage market than it did pre-2008 and the GSEs back almost the entire U.S. mortgage market. "
http://blogs.law....ieBP.pdf
hush1
5 / 5 (1) Aug 13, 2011
"This thread is so full of crap it is rather hard to distinguish just who you were." - Ethelred

(Two words too many dropped)

Well...yes. The veil of Mist obscures everyone from view.
O.k. All in jest. All good in making fun. Makes sense.

(Mist=German word for the English word shit)
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 13, 2011
"This thread is so full of crap it is rather hard to distinguish just who you were." - Ethelred

(Two words too many dropped)

Well...yes. The veil of Mist obscures everyone from view.
O.k. All in jest. All good in making fun. Makes sense.

(Mist=German word for the English word shit)
Und otto would like to give you a little Gift i think yes
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 13, 2011
And for the most part, NAFTA has been beneficial to the U.S.
Now you're starting to sound just like the el primo troll. NAFTA beneficial to the U.S.? How: by exporting production capacity to Mexico? NAFTA has had exactly the same motivation, and the same end-result, as similar "free trade" agreements and policies in Asia. Granted, China outdid Mexico when it came to polluting its lands and underpaying its overexploited workers, so to a large extent it has more than eclipsed Mexico as the most powerful vacuum amid America's giant sucking sound chorus. NAFTA was just the first and rather auspicious step down the road to perdition.
If by private actors you mean citizens
No, it's not what I mean, though the point about citizens is valid. I meant the private lenders and investors. The financial sector is bankrupt, and those few investors who aren't broke see nothing productive to invest in, so they speculate in the equities and commodities markets instead.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 13, 2011
it would be 95% the result of Republican action based on Libertarian/Randite ideology and 5% Liberal error
That's where your partisan blinders get in the way. I don't know about Canada's politics a whole lot, but I can tell you here in the States the so-called "Liberals" have been nothing of the sort. True Liberals are an endangered species, if not altogether extinct, amid the echelons of professional politicians. One doesn't get to play on the national stage unless one is heavily funded and supported by Wall Street: if not, one gets vastly outspent and buried by those who are. I call the Democrats, Republican-lite. It's what they've been ever since the 90's. So I'd apportion the blame in more of a roughly 60%-40% ratio -- in terms of 'official' acts. But in reality, they are all bought and paid for, so based on actions rather than words, the responsibility truly is 50%-50%.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (1) Aug 13, 2011
the TeaPublican demand for an immediate balancing of Federal Expenditures - These moves were championed by Wall Street Trader and Traitor Rick Santelli - these are demands that would have added another 30 million to the unemployed.
You don't get it. What Wall Street wants is more "Quantitative Easing". They WANT the government to keep propping them up and bailing them out. They don't give a rat's fart about national debt, or long-term fiscal health of the nation. They insisted back in 2008 that FASB change accounting rules and permit mark-to-fantasy; and to this day they continue to perpetrate fraud upon the markets by misrepresenting the true state of their balance sheets -- a massive fraud that has been made officially lawful on Obama's watch! In the meantime, they continue working frantically to offload their toxic garbage onto the government or some other sucker. But to do that, they need to keep the government borrowing the money to pay for that putrid sludge.

ctd.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 13, 2011
Now you're starting to sound just like the el primo troll. NAFTA beneficial to the U.S.? How: by exporting production capacity to Mexico? NAFTA has had exactly the same motivation, and the same end-result, as similar "free trade" agreements and policies in Asia.
-By strengthening neighbors and allies and giving illegals a reason to stay home?

"Well it hasn't done a very good job of that has it?" - says PE

-Not yet says otto. Actually illegal immigration is down thanks to drug gangs patrolling Mex borders, funded by US drug consumption.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (1) Aug 13, 2011
"Another 30 million unemployed" is an gross underestimate. The real impact, once the QE games stop and reality dawns, will be much worse. During the first Great Depression, unemployment reached well above 20%. This time we have managed to dig ourselves an even _deeper_ hole. I expect 30% unemployment, and possibly worse, when we finally do hit bottom. It's going to be riots in the streets and martial law. And the longer we keep pushing off the day of reckoning, the worse it's going to be when it finally arrives: because with every passing day, we compound our fiscal problems by refusing to deal with them.

Once upon a time, Democrats at least paid lip service to balanced budgets. No longer. Now, their policy is defined by Larry Summers and Tim Geithner and Ben Bernanke, and other such Wall Street hacks. They preach a horribly perverted and distorted version of Keynsianism, which can only lead to inevitable national bankruptcy.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 13, 2011
the Bush tax cuts that turned the Clinton Surplus into a 440 billion per year deficit in 3 years
Another steaming load of partisan BS. Yes, the Bush cuts were disastrous. But there has never been any such thing as "the Clinton Surplus". This "surplus" was a result of fraudulent "revenues" skimmed from the .com bubble. The economy under Clinton was ridiculously distorted, not in a small part due to Clinton's willful and malicious refusal to actually police the markets -- in other words, to do his JOB as the Chief Executive in charge of implementing and enforcing the nation's laws and regulations! Clinton and his party were every bit as complicit in the overall deregulation saga as Bush Jr. and his Republicans. They are two sides of the same coin.

Not to mention, Clinton got his "surpluses" by playing games with budget numbers and stealing from the Social Security trust fund (which made Gore's exhortations for a 'lockbox' in 2000 all the more slap-in-the-face ironic.)
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 13, 2011
And today, Obama just as willfully and maliciously refuses to audit and resolve the bankrupt financial behemoths he inherited from Bush Jr. Rather than cleaning up the financial industry through lawful mechanisms of bankruptcy, putting all the mega-thieves and professional fraudsters behind bars while disgorging them of ill-gotten gains, and allowing the economy to rebound from a fresh start, Obama and his team of Wall Street financial vampires have consigned our country to a slow death by a thousand cuts, with the zombie banks doing all the cutting. I don't relish the thought of being eaten alive, by Wall Street from one end and our 'free trade' "partners" from the other. How many "Liberals" do we hear today stating these barren and basic truths, copping to what has to be done, and admitting that the country has tremendous hardship ahead before it is all over? All we continue to get is an unending stream of lies, evasions, deflections, and false promises.
hush1
not rated yet Aug 13, 2011
"Und otto would like to give you a little Gift i think yes" - Otto

Flattering I am worth that effort.
I will swallow anything with a grain of cyanide.

(English Readers: The English word 'Gift' has an identical spelling in German. The meaning in German means 'poison' when translated from German back to English)

@PE
Describing quagmire rationally. I don't mind correcting the past. I just don't see any one of us giving anyone else a chance for correction. Taking the blinders off horses is impossible. I can't get near the herd.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"Ben Franklyn WAS a printer. And he did fly the kite" - Ethelred

Ya, I flew a kite once too. As for the printing press. It barely existed at the time.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
Poor RyggTard... Always missing the point.

The collapse of the U.S. banking industry wasn't caused by the lowering of lending standards, it was caused by the resale - often illegal - of loans to other banks as subprime mortgages that had their values artificially inflated.

So there was illegality in the exchange of the loans, and a lack of regulation that allowed the value of those loans to be inflated well beyond their value.

Once the banks realized that your Ideological Brother, and fellow diciple of Ayn Rand - Alan Greenspan, would take no action to regulate that aspect of the banking industry, the banks began to offer mortgages to anyone, including people who could not make the payments with the knowledge that those loans would be bundled artificially sanitized and sold to other banks under a higher valuation than deserved.

Deregulation was the key failure.

"The GSEs' underwriting standards did not become more lax because of a lack of government regulation." - RyggTad
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 14, 2011
"Now you're starting to sound just like the el primo troll. NAFTA beneficial to the U.S.? How: by exporting production capacity to Mexico?" - Pinkie

In the case of Canada, it allowed easier access to the Canadian Market for U.S. firms, who now own something like 75% of large Canadian businesses. American and Canadian workplace, environmental and other standards are highly compatible, so the pressure to lower wages or standards in the U.S. due to competition from Canada hasn't been significant.

Mexico is a little more complex, since it involves a trade off between improving the Mexican Economy and Reducing the influx of illegal Mexican workers into the U.S. economy and their illegal employment by U.S. businesses.

Another complication here is the rise of the Mexican drug wars, which of course are primarily created by America's prohibition on drugs. It is those internal drug wars that are keeping the Mexican economy from improving to a point where wages and standards would rise.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
Where would America be without Canadian oil, Canadian Lumber, and Canadian moral values?

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
Do the math Pinkie. Adding 30 million to the unemployment ranks will increase the U.S. unemployment rate to just over 30 percent.

And who were demanding this? TeaPublicans of course.

Who was doing their best to stop the Tea Tards Depression causing policies? The Democrats of course.

"Another 30 million unemployed" is an gross underestimate. The real impact, once the QE games stop and reality dawns, will be much worse. During the first Great Depression, unemployment reached well above 20%. This time we have managed to dig ourselves an even _deeper_ hole. I expect 30% unemployment" - Pinkie
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
Yup. Republican Borrow and Spend - Starve the Beast - economics has driven your nation to the edge of insolvency as planned. So what are you going to do? Cut spending and drive the economy into another recession?

You have two options. Cut spending and throw more people onto the unemployment line, or maintain your deficit - increasing future problems - until the economy improves.

Both are unpalatable options forced upon you by the last 40 years of Republican fiscal treason.

What are you going to do about it? Vote for Ron Paul?

"And the longer we keep pushing off the day of reckoning, the worse it's going to be when it finally arrives: because with every passing day, we compound our fiscal problems by refusing to deal with them." - Pinkie

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"Once upon a time, Democrats at least paid lip service to balanced budgets. No longer." - Pinkie

You mean the Clinton Budget surplus never existed? Or are you trying to claim that the massive stimulus needed to convert Bush Depression 1 into Bush Recession 2, somehow illustrates of how Liberals budget - well, excluding the Clinton years.

Perhaps you would rather not have had the positive effects of the Obama Stimulus and now be in year 3 of a 30 year long Depression.

Your anger doesn't appear to be rationally directed.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"But there has never been any such thing as "the Clinton Surplus". This "surplus" was a result of fraudulent "revenues" skimmed from the .com bubble." - Pinkie

Yup. In part they were. And they don't include the unsustainable nature of the Social Security Surplus.

You should familiarize yourself with the data and charts found here...

National debt by U.S. presidential terms

http://en.wikiped...al_terms

Note that the charts show public debt, not yearly deficit.

Which party has been better for America?
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"Not to mention, Clinton got his "surpluses" by playing games with budget numbers and stealing from the Social Security trust fund" - Pinkie

You don't have a clue to how the Social Security system was set up do you? It is typical of Americans to not know how their own nation works.

Social Security funds have NEVER been kept in some obscure bank account, and the system was never intended to work like that.

Social Security funds have ALWAYS been used to fund the day to day operations of government. The funds have ALWAYS been used to stimulate economic growth with the long term view that the the larger economy resulting in the future would be sufficiently robust to pay for the outlays at that time.

There never has been a lock box, and there was never a time when the SS Surplus was kept in a bank account, or held as securities. In fact the cumulative surplus is so great that doing so would damage the economy by making hundreds of trillions of dollars in excess money avail for loans.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"And today, Obama just as willfully and maliciously refuses to audit and resolve the bankrupt financial behemoths he inherited from Bush Jr. Rather than cleaning up the financial industry" - Pinkey

Feh!

So you expect a complete overhaul of the banking industry to be conducted at the same time they are trying to prevent the system from collapsing?

You might as well complain about a driver not getting out of his car to fix a flat tire while the accident caused by the blown tire is underway.

Sorry Charlie, but it is enough that you minimize the damage first and then fix the tire after you take stock in the aftermath of the accident.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
Mindless Claptrap. The U.S. financial industry is now stable, American Corporations are sitting on 3 trillion in cash, and the U.S. economy is out of recession, although still growing sluggishly.

That is quite a turn around since America's near brush with complete fiscal collapse - a situation instigated by the Republicans and inherited by Obama.

"Obama and his team of Wall Street financial vampires have consigned our country to a slow death by a thousand cuts, with the zombie banks doing all the cutting." - Pinkie
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"How many "Liberals" do we hear today stating these barren and basic truths, copping to what has to be done, and admitting that the country has tremendous hardship ahead before it is all over?" - Pinkie

You are clearly not listening.

President Obama asked voters for patience with the economy and jobs today, saying its problems were "years in the making" and "it will take years to get back to where we need to be."

http://content.us...-fully/1
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"You don't get it. What Wall Street wants is more "Quantitative Easing". They WANT the government to keep propping them up and bailing them out." - Pinkie

Wall Street wants whatever will give it the most money. That is what Wall Street is. Pure greed.

Remember the Libertarian Motto "Greed is the ultimate good."

That is hardly news.

So your choice is further corporate deregulation under the Republicans or greater regulatory oversight by the Democrats.

Your decision?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011

Be specific. Which laws did the Clinton Administration ignore with regard to market enforcement?

"Clinton's willful and malicious refusal to actually police the markets -- in other words, to do his JOB as the Chief Executive in charge of implementing and enforcing the nation's laws and regulations!" - Pinkie

PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
a trade off between improving the Mexican Economy and Reducing the influx of illegal Mexican workers into the U.S. economy
Bull. The tradeoff is between producing things natively, vs. exploiting workers and the environment across the border. Why don't you ask Mexican farmers how much their economy was "improved" once Fed-subsidized U.S. produce and GM crops flooded their markets? As for reducing Mexican illegals, well that was clearly a raging success, wasn't it? LMAO Not that I'm one of those nutters who blame illegals for everything including the Original Sin, but you have to admit that NAFTA was never about any lofty plans or goals. It was about greed in the upper echelons: goose the profit margins by slashing input and labor costs. Short-term pleasure at the cost of long-term health. Economic heroin.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
Adding 30 million to the unemployment ranks will increase the U.S. unemployment rate to just over 30 percent.
One has to figure there are about 200 million people in this country of working age. So... what sort of 'math' are you doing, and whose BS definitions are you using?
Cut spending and throw more people onto the unemployment line, or maintain your deficit - increasing future problems - until the economy improves.

Both are unpalatable options forced upon you by the last 40 years of Republican fiscal treason.

What are you going to do about it? Vote for Ron Paul?
One cannot save a junkie by mainlining more smack into his collapsing veins. The economy will not and CANNOT improve through deficit spending. The "stimulus" has long since become a chronic condition. We are now dependent on it for our "well-being", every bit like a drug addict becomes physiologically dependent on the drugs. If we want to live, we're going to have to quit. And it'll feel like hell.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
Perhaps you would rather not have had the positive effects of the Obama Stimulus and now be in year 3 of a 30 year long Depression.
"Positive effects"??? Postponing the inevitable by another couple of election cycles, while condemning the nation to fiscal insolvency and refusing to deal with the real problems that are continuing to get worse. Awesome strategy. But it does generate nice bonuses on Wall Street... You're too blind to see the next collapse approaching. But don't even think you'll be safe in Canada. Europe is even worse off economically than U.S., Asia is addicted to European and American consumption. When this powder keg of economic lies and frauds detonates, every single economy out there will be blown to bits. And it's INEVITABLE. And the longer we put it off by piling on even more debt and fraud, the greater the eventual detonation. Nothing is 'free' in economics. There is no 'free money'. And unsustainable debt creation is not 'spending'. It's fraud.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
you expect a complete overhaul of the banking industry to be conducted at the same time they are trying to prevent the system from collapsing?
This system cannot be saved. And we should not even try. The system does not DESERVE to be saved, even if it could be. The system is criminal and corrupt to its core.

Trying to save the system is the mistake Japan made two decades ago. They got 2 decades of deflation for their efforts. And their real estate is STILL unaffordable even today. But they entered into those two lost decades with hardly any debt, and they were a net exporter. We're up to our gills in debt already, and suffer from gigantic and chronic trade deficits, so won't be able to even repeat Japan's "accomplishments". We are headed the way of Argentina, Iceland, Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and so on. And yes, of course, it can't possibly happen here -- because we're different and special and favored by the gods -- right up until it does happen.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
The U.S. financial industry is now stable
Sure it is. About as stable as it was in the summer of 2007.
American Corporations are sitting on 3 trillion in cash
But who's counting their debts and CDOs against that cash?
and the U.S. economy is out of recession, although still growing sluggishly.
Bullshit definitions cooked up for political convenience. Recessions are defined as contraction in GDP, but that definition doesn't take into account that GDP can be artificially inflated through debt issuance. When you lose your job and start living on your credit cards, you haven't regained fiscal health. We never left recession. We are in fact in a Depression. We've been trying to paper it over and put up smokescreens, and by the sound of you it does work well on naive partisans. But the charade is now coming to an end. The eCONomy is steadily loosing the CONfidence of the markets and the consumers. And QE3 is both politically and fiscally impossible.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
Wall Street wants whatever will give it the most money.
Which just happens to coincide with your pleas to "save the system". Wall Street IS the system. And you, and Obama, and the rest of you hacks quite regardless of party affiliation, are worshiping at its altar whether you even realize it or not. You defend the very monster that repeatedly bends you over and rapes you. You have a raging case of Stockholm Syndrome.
Which laws did the Clinton Administration ignore with regard to market enforcement?
Which didn't it? False claims on budget statements and hinky accounting and auditing, pump-and-dump schemes, insider trading, willful misrepresentation of asset quality by brokers and investment advisers. You think it all got invented under Bush Jr.? The dot bomb catastrophe took years to develop, and no such development is possible in a lawful and well-regulated market.
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 14, 2011
I love the sound of rants in the morning
That hot tempered sound
It sounds it sounds
Like like
Ignorance

Which goes for rather a lot of people on this thread that don't understand how money can be created and what happens to economies that fail to do it.

I strongly recommend reading Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle. Yes its fiction, yes it long. Original published version is 3 900 page novels. Pocket book is about 8 I think. But you will begin to get an understanding of just how poverty stricken Europe and England were before the creation of national banks. The silver and gold were there. The land was there. There simply was no to way turn them into actual usable money due to antiquated financial instruments and the infrastructure sucked.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 14, 2011
"trade has the effect of increasing social cooperation by allowing us to specialize and expand the division of labor. This is beneficial for everyone in society because it allows us to do more than is possible if everyone was in isolation. In other words, trade allows us to work together for our own benefits. We become dependent, in a good way, upon each other, which allows for greater cooperation and wealth. Take this away and conflict is the likely alternative outcome."
http://www.fee.or...borders/
Both Pinkie and VD argue the statist position. The STATE must control the economy. They just disagree on the method and who the STATE should grant special privilege.
When the STATE limits its force to protection of private property, the individuals in societies will, as they have for thousands of years, find ways to trade for MUTUAL benefit creating wealth.

Ethel promotes fiction instead or reality.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (1) Aug 14, 2011
trade allows us to work together for our own benefits
That is only true of trade partners who are at approximately equivalent levels of economic development, and who have similar labor, wage, and environmental standards. When one of the "partners" exploits near-slave labor and destroys its environment for profit, trading with such a partner is economically equivalent to cutting your own throat.
Both Pinkie and VD argue the statist position. The STATE must control the economy.
No. The STATE must enforce contract law. The state must prosecute theft and fraud and embezzlement. The state must ensure that fiduciary duty is fulfilled. The state must make sure that everyone plays by the rules. The state must police the land and sea to eradicate brigands and pirates. The state must not look the other way while mega banks reorganize their structure and function along the lines of La Cosa Nostra.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
@pinkster

You seem a little agitated of late. What's the matter? Your portfolio shrink during this latest downturn?
Yes, the Bush cuts were disastrous. But there has never been any such thing as "the Clinton Surplus". This "surplus" was a result of fraudulent "revenues" skimmed from the .com bubble. The economy under Clinton was ridiculously distorted, not in a small part due to Clinton's willful and malicious refusal to actually police the markets -- in other words, to do his JOB as the Chief Executive
I like to repeat the oft-repeated maxim that blaming the president for a bad economy is like blaming Ronald macdonald when you get a bad hamburger. Spokesmodels are not responsible for the content of the Happy Meal. Their job is to get you to buy it, and swallow it.

Thinking that these guys would be allowed to make decisions on the fly regarding Programs of such major Importance, and which take decades of Planning and Preparation to maintain, is absurd.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
What's the matter?
I'm getting really tired of watching 300 million lemmings in a death march toward the cliff. It's well past time they stopped the pointless partisan games and meaningless confrontations over vacuous non-issues, and woke up to reality. I would like this dealt with while we still have a chance of surviving the cure.
blaming the president for a bad economy is like blaming Ronald macdonald when you get a bad hamburger
The President's job is to implement and enforce the nation's laws. That's the explicit designated purpose for the Executive Branch, per the U.S. Constitution. Failure to implement and enforce the law is a direct failure of the President.
Spokesmodels are not responsible for the content of the Happy Meal.
My point exactly. Our Presidents -- regardless of party -- are no longer doing the job they are supposed to do; they have devolved into bought-and-paid-for spokesmen.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 14, 2011
That is only true of trade partners who are at approximately equivalent levels of economic development, and who have similar labor, wage, and environmental standards.

No, it does not, and empirical data and logic does not support your assertion.
The President's job is to implement and enforce the nation's laws.

Even if they are bad laws? I agree immigration laws should be enforced or changed, but Obamacare needs to be struck down along with the Federal Reserve Act.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
Ethel:
"In 1913, the American banking system received a central bank on the European model. The U.S. was the last great nation to introduce central banking.[42]"
http://wiki.mises..._banking
And 100 years later, the US is no longer so great a nation following the path of other 'great nations' that have central national banks.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 14, 2011
No, it does not, and empirical data and logic does not support your assertion.
Keep telling yourself that, troll.
Even if they are bad laws?
Absolutely, unequivocally, yes. The job of determining which laws are good or bad is reserved for the Judicial Branch. The job of creating laws is for the Legislative Branch, and if the people don't like the laws it makes they can elect different legislators. The President's job is to execute and enforce the law as legislated, period.
And 100 years later, the US is no longer so great a nation
It wasn't so great a nation 100 years ago, either. It became "great" when it was left the last man standing after WWII.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 14, 2011
The President's job is to implement and enforce the nation's laws. That's the explicit designated purpose for the Executive Branch, per the U.S. Constitution. Failure to implement and enforce the law is a direct failure of the President.
You are naive
My point exactly. Our Presidents -- regardless of party -- are no longer doing the job they are supposed to do; they have devolved into bought-and-paid-for spokesmen.
You are naiver than I thought. The sorts of issues you and the rest of the American people are assuming are a presidents job to deal with, are parts of Programs decided upon decades and generations in advance. They are Planned, Organized, and set upon a preordained Course which is adjusted periodically only by People who fully understand what they are intended to accomplish and how they are supposed to Work.

No 4 year electee with a toothy smile and a way with words is going to be allowed to endanger these Plans because the people ask him to.
Cont
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 14, 2011
This is not even conspiracy stuff it is just common sense. Problems of overpopulation can be anticipated gens in advance and Strategies devised to deal with them regionally. The effects of tech innovation such as steamships and rail travel can be anticipated, such as enabling larger political units to form. Their integration and the assemblage of these political units HAS to be Planned, and these plans have to be followed and managed over the course of decades to ensure they are not disrupted. 

These Programs often involve many countries. They often cause people and populations with relative power and influence to suffer. But for civilization to survive and thrive they MUST happen. And presidents and parliaments can have the potential to unwittingly disrupt them.

JFK may have learned this the hard way.
http://www.youtub...a_player

There are Issues which the people absolutely cannot be allowed to decide. Including oftentimes their own fates.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
http://www.youtub...a_player

Good speech by Kennedy.

I note that it is written at a target grade level of English comprehension that is around entry level College rather than today's political speeches that are targeted to grade 8 to 10.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"The job of determining which laws are good or bad is reserved for the Judicial Branch." - Pinkie

No. The job of the Judicial Branch is to decide which laws generated by the legislative branch are constitutional, rejecting those that aren't, and determining which laws are compatible with existing law, and modifying or rejecting those that aren't.

However requirements for compatibility are not that strong and the legislature can completely negate existing law where the changes are simply a matter of internal policy.

For example on Monday might create a law that makes it illegal to sell alcohol to a minor, and on Tuesday create another law that makes it legal. Although there is contradiction it is a change in policy, not a contradiction in law.

"The President's job is to execute and enforce the law as legislated, period." - Pinkie

Wrong again. It is the presidents job to live within the law, it is his job to be head of the U.S. military, and ultimate director of that body.cont
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
There are no laws prohibiting a president from lobbying, or drawing up a model budget, or setting a direction for the nation through the bully pulpit.

The president also signs bills to make them law. His signature is required in the normal course of events. Hence the president has veto power over the decisions of the law makers and can direct the course of the nation through negation.

There are a host of enforcement components to government, and they are the bodies whose job it is to see that the law is complied with.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"And 100 years later, the US is no longer so great a nation." - RyggTard

You Poor Demented Tard....

The decline in America didn't start with the advent creation of a Central Bank. America was a strong nation until the early 1970's when economic competition from Europe and other nations that had been badly damaged during WWII, began to eat into American markets.

Today, there is Global competition with America, even from second and third world nations and particularly from emerging first world nations like India and China.

Worse for Americans are the Libertarian/Randite ideals of "free trade" which by design have put American business at a competitive disadvantage compared to nations with lower to nonexistent workplace, environmental, legal, moral, etc. operating standards.

So in America it has been a race to the bottom in terms of standards and practices to compete. America of course is now suffering the consequences of the race to the bottom that was so loved by the Randites.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
While Libertarian/Randite promoted Free and Open trade has devastated the U.S. manufacturing sector. other conservative forces have been at work making matters even worse by allowing problems to compound.

Conservative/Randite ideology has prevented America from acting on the problem of peak oil through the aggressive development of alternate and sustainable sources of energy. The result has been the various energy shocks seen over the last 40 years starting with the Oil Embargo during the Carter period.

The ongoing crisis in American infrastructure is another ignored problem.

Here the problem is one of refusing to admit that a nation must maintain what it builds, and must set aside enough resources for that maintenance.

The Libertarian/Randite ideology has worked behind the scenes to destroy government owned infrastructure in the hope that once it is destroyed it will be replaced with corporate troll infrastructure - private roads, bridges, water services, etc.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
The list of Libertarian/Randite treason is almost endless, from the Libertarian/Randite campaign of denial that smoking causes cancer, the the campaign of denial that the Globe is Warming.

Rand herself argued that anti-smoking campaigns were a fruad and a conspiracy by the scientific elite as a means of constraining her freedom.

One can only wonder what she really though after being diagnosed with lung cancer after a life as a 2 pack a day smoker.

She was a fool of course, and essentially murdered by the same corporations whom she praised and defended.

Their targets may differ, but always with the same methods and goals. Destroy, degrade or abolish any and all government services or holdings, so that those services and holdings can be transferred to for profit troll corporations.

Starve the Beast of big Government through fiscal bankruptcy. - CATO Institute.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"No, it does not, and empirical data and logic does not support your assertion." - RyggTard

I see, so on your home planet of Libertaria China isn't cleaning America's clock economically and American Corporations are not relocating to second and third world nations to take advantage of the lower operating costs.

Your Libertarian/Randite political ideology tells you it won't happen, hence it can't be happening.

Reality be damned. If your faith says it isn't raining then it can't be raining. No amount of wet will convince you. No puddles can convince you as the water must obviously have risen from the ground. No clap of thunder can convince you as it must be the distant sounds of colliding continents. Wet clothing? Impossible, they couldn't have been dry in the first place. Raining? Nope. It is ideologically impossible on your mind's KookTard vision of reality.

You are living in a Libertarian Tard Fantasy land.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
The decline in America didn't start with the advent creation of a Central Bank.

20 years after the creation of the Federal Reserve, it triggers a worldwide Depression.

"Consumer prices in July rose 6.5% compared with the same month last year, the National Bureau of Statistics said.

The rise comes even as China's central bank has raised interest rates five times since October 2010 in a bid to control prices. "
http://www.bbc.co...14454472
Chinese central bank is doing well, too.

There is a saying, if you owe the bank $1000, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank $2 trillion, you own the bank.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"I'm getting really tired of watching 300 million lemmings in a death march toward the cliff." - Pinkie

I have been told by Hundreds of Conservatives over the years that such things just don't matter to them because they will be dead before the crap hits the fan.

Who cares? Dancing with the stars is on TeeBee.

On this issue, America is reaping the rewards of declining intelligence. The country is awash with TeaTards who can't manage simple arithmetic but know in their heart of hearts that policies that will put 30 million more Americans out of work will bring back the good oll days (which never existed) and are best reflected by the years between 1950 and 1955 - ignoring the New Deal of course.

"I would like this dealt with while we still have a chance of surviving the cure." - Pinkie

Impossible as long as Republicans have the ability to block policy and sabotage what remains of sensible government.

If you want to avoid being at the heart of the coming disaster, leave the U.S.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
Look what' happening in China. See what happens when people earn a little bit of wealth?
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com...V3ygsjRA

Sundays mass action was one of the largest urban protests of recent years and the latest in a growing number of demonstrations against environmental disasters and degradation caused by Chinas rapid industrialisation and economic development.

Chinese authorities ordered a petrochemical factory to close on Sunday after more than 12,000 demonstrators confronted riot police, demanding the plants relocation over health fears."
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
More from China:
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com...V3z3voe0

It also presented the latest challenge to a stability-obsessed government that refuses to countenance meaningful political reforms but must govern a population that is increasingly wealthy, connected via the internet, critical of poor governance and distrustful of its leaders."
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
"It wasn't so great a nation 100 years ago, either. It became "great" when it was left the last man standing after WWII." - Pinkie

Yes. Absolutely correct. America has been at a competitive advantage for a long while. Initially through the ability to exploit new and unexploited resources, then by using that wealth to create world redefining research facilities and universities - almost exclusively government funded, and then using that new knowledge to produce beyond state of the art technology that could be sold to the rest of the world.

With the end of WWII, and the rebuilding of nations, those nations are now in a position to challenge America in manufacturing, and techlology at the same time, Conservative Fiscal Treason aimed at Starving the Beast has greatly constrained and damaged the government's ability to respond to such challenges, or in many instances even accept that such challenges exist.

Witness RyggTard's Randite claim that there is no evidence that outsourcing cont
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
outsourcing and offshoring has damaged the American economy.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"One has to figure there are about 200 million people in this country of working age. So... what sort of 'math' are you doing, and whose BS definitions are you using?" - Pinkie

100,000 average wage, 1.5 trillion yearly deficit, = 1.5 trillion/100,000 = 15 million jobs.

Multiplier 2 (approx) = 30 million jobs.

Available workers 150 million
Current unemployment rate 10 percent.

30 million/150 million = 20 percent of the workforce. Added to the current 10 percent unemployment rate = 30 percent.

These are calculations that no TeaPublican has ever done and for which they have no capacity to perform.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 14, 2011
Yes, the USA was the only major economic power left after WWII.
But it was the US Army that did not want to make the same mistake the world powers did after WWI. So they helped Germany rebuild, they helped Japan rebuild. East Germany and the Soviet block didn't benefit from such assistance. And after the Korean War, ROK was rebuilt.
Now the world has many economic powers with more liberty and prosperity in spite of the socialism in the EU and USA.
The only politician force that recognizes that what made the US great was limited govt and entrepreneurs is the tea parties.
It's great to hear a presidential candidate state he wants to make the federal govt LESS important in our lives.
How refreshing!
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 14, 2011
"Bullshit definitions cooked up for political convenience. Recessions are defined as contraction in GDP, but that definition doesn't take into account that GDP can be artificially inflated through debt issuance." - Pinkie

You are absolutely right. The current U.S. GDP is close to 14 trillion per year. Economic growth would have to be 10 percent per year to maintain the debt to GDP ratio.

Things are a bit different in constant dollar terms though. Consider, a 3 percent inflation rate - considered normal - the debt at that point - now 14.5 trillion - decreases by 435 billion a year in terms of constant dollar value.

During Bush Recession 2, the U.S. economy shrank by around 5 percent, and would have continued to do so for several years if there was no intervention by Da Gubderment. So assuming that the average American has 40 years of life remaining, this government bailout has saved at least 10 percent of gdp per capita for every year over those 40 years, or roughly cont.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 15, 2011
640 trillion. This represents a savings of 1.8 million in GDP per American over their lifetime. The cost on the other hand has been 3 trillion or $8571 per American not including interest.

BarGooon.

But despite these facts it is also a fact that the current deficit size is unsustainable, and must be reduced in very short order.

It can either be done with spending cuts or increased taxes neither of which will effect the unemployment rate much. However the reduction of the yearly deficit will, and will if taken to zero immediately as demanded by the TeaPublicans, result in an immediate unemployment rate of 30 percent plus.

The ratio of spending cuts vs tax increases is up to the American people of course, but rapid change as demanded by the Republicans and TeaTards is immediate economic suicide.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (5) Aug 15, 2011
"Now the world has many economic powers with more liberty and prosperity in spite of the socialism in the EU and USA." - RyggTard

Yes, with the advent of European Style Socialism and it's replication around the world the world is more free.

With the rise of Borrow and Spend Republican and Libertarian/Randite ideological Treason in the Republican party and in Ameriaca, Americans are less free, impoverished, and nearing financial collapse.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (4) Aug 15, 2011
Nope. It took 30 years of Republican misrule.

"Which didn't it? False claims on budget statements and hinky accounting and auditing, pump-and-dump schemes, insider trading, willful misrepresentation of asset quality by brokers and investment advisers. You think it all got invented under Bush Jr.?" - Pinkie

Wanna see some constructive change? Give the Democrats as much time in power to correct the damage as the Republicans traitors have had to create the damage.


Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
Which laws did the Clinton Administration ignore with regard to market enforcement?

"Which didn't it? False claims on budget statements and hinky accounting and auditing, pump-and-dump schemes, insider trading, willful misrepresentation of asset quality by brokers and investment advisers." - Pinkie

Blanket allegations. I want specifics. Which laws were ignored, which laws were broken.

Be precise, or admit that you are misrepresenting the facts.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 15, 2011
Claptrap!

"Wall Street IS the system. And you, and Obama, and the rest of you hacks quite regardless of party affiliation, are worshiping at its altar whether you even realize it or not. You defend the very monster that repeatedly bends you over and rapes you. You have a raging case of Stockholm Syndrome." - Pinkie

If you are going to play the capitalist's game then you play by the capitalist's rules. If you don't want to play the game then I am completely supportive of your view. I defend Wallstreet only to the extent that it is a valid property on the monopoly board. I don't whine about it's existence because I've landed my piece on it and the occupancy costs are bankrupting me. It is the cost of playing the game.

Don't like it? Quit.

What I recognize and you do not are the consequences of rapid change and the sources of resistance to that change.

The source of resistance is the industry itself of course, but not through it's own overt power, but through it's covert
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 15, 2011
it's covert power to influence through lobbying, and various kinds of payoffs like such as the revolving doors between pro corporate propaganda groups and government.

Those sources of resistance are primarily concentrated in the "party of NO". Want to improve the situation? Destroy the Repubican party. It is the only way that America will survive.

Look at it this way... Which party is the primary impediment to any and all policies involving sustainable, environmentally benign existance? Which party refers to zero growth policies as Communist?

The Conservatives of course.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 15, 2011
"One cannot save a junkie by mainlining more smack into his collapsing veins." - Pinkie

The withdrawal symptoms of withdrawal from alcohol addiction can be fatal. Abusers must be weaned off of the sauce rather than going cold turkey.

The same is the case with the U.S. economy. Move too fast and you will increase unemployment to recession levels and then you have to pay the unemployed to prevent them from committing crimes to literally remain alive.

"The economy will not and CANNOT improve through deficit spending." - Pinkie

It already has, thus falsifying your silly assertion.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 15, 2011
"Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts.' - RyggTard

Well said Tard boy... Well said.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 15, 2011
But it was the US Army that did not want to make the same mistake the world powers did after WWI. So they helped Germany rebuild, they helped Japan rebuild.
Yah dats a pleasant story but the reality is different. WW1 was ended early because armor and air power threatened to remobilize the front and no one knew the ramifications of that. Germans were kept embittered and economically stressed so the war could more easily be resumed in a gen or 2.

In the meantime German and soviet military practiced together with their new toys in the steppes and Germans got a feel for blitzkrieg in guernica.

The German people were SET UP to fight another war. Hitler gave out pretty little Xian crosses with hakenkreutze in the middle to mothers who bore cannon fodder for the Reich. Much healthy cultural destruction ensued. ONE BILLION ABORTIONS could take place as a result. The cycle of Eurasian wars caused by chronic overpopulation could finally be ended.

THIS is meaningful Victory.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
Marjon has been making some phone calls..

"Warren Buffett has called for Congress to make him and his "mega-rich friends" pay more income tax.

In a piece in the left-leaning New York Times, the billionaire investor and philanthropist said the rich should do more to help plug the deficit.

He called for a tax rise for those earning more than $1m (£600,000), and a higher rate for those on over $10m.

In a rebuttal of arguments made by Republicans, he said tax rises would not hurt investment or jobs in the US.

He told Congress to "stop coddling the super-rich"." BBC
Thrasymachus
1 / 5 (1) Aug 15, 2011
Politics and otto's conspiracy theories aside, as long as there is room for economic growth, somebody, preferably the government, has to be in debt. This is because the financial side of the economy, not the real goods, services and labor, but the money and debt, is a zero sum game. In order for somebody to have money left over in the bank after they're done spending after a given period, then somebody else has to be in debt after they're done spending after that same period. And in order for the economy to grow, somebody has to have money left over after they're done spending in the previous period, so they can increase spending in the upcoming period. Who better to carry debt so the other guy can increase spending than the government? They're immortal, so they can carry debt for a long time, and they can borrow from themselves, so they can get the best terms on the debt they hold.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 15, 2011
The current U.S. GDP is close to 14 trillion per year.
A patently false number that doesn't subtract debt issuance, and doesn't compensate for extensive undercapitalization and overleverage still pervasive throughout the economy. And you know it.
assuming that the average American has 40 years of life remaining, this government bailout has saved at least 10 percent of gdp per capita for every year over those 40 years
Unbelievably bad reasoning. Firstly, the bailout bailed out bankrupt and corrupt institutions that should have been allowed to fail. Instead, they were rewarded for their malfeasance and misfeasance. Secondly, the bailout addicted the economy to the point that it now relies upon perhaps 20% of its total GDP from nothing more than federal deficit spending (i.e. from charging the collective credit card.) Third, if this kind of "savings" continues for another 40 years, at 10% per year the debt will have grown to 656 trillion.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 15, 2011
rapid change as demanded by the Republicans and TeaTards is immediate economic suicide.
There is no alternative to rapid change. There is absolutely no chance that Washington could sustain multi-year and even multi-decadal discipline to gradually and continually cut expenses while increasing taxes. No freaking way in hell. And if Democrats were kept in charge, you KNOW they would continue growing spending without limit, while attempting to keep stimulating the economy through more tax cuts. Here's who the "Democrats" running the government today are, and here's how they run it and for whom:

http://www.truthd..._bubble/

Returning accounting standards back to reality, returning the economy to a rational basis, and restoring sustainability and JUSTICE is not suicide -- even if it would result in several years of extreme pain and dislocation. Continuing with things as they are, IS suicide.
PinkElephant
not rated yet Aug 15, 2011
I want specifics. Which laws were ignored, which laws were broken.


http://en.wikiped...0.932000

You want to see who the Democrats REALLY are, who they work for, and how they operate? Read this:

http://www.rollin...20100405
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
[qThere is no alternative to rapid change. There is absolutely no chance that Washington could sustain multi-year and even multi-decadal discipline to gradually and continually cut expenses while increasing taxes. No freaking way in hell. Unless there was some Mechanism in place to ensure that it was done -?

You Know - none of these theories take into account what a major calamity would do to economies in their present state. For instance what would a middle east-centered world war do to western debt? Would we need to borrow even MORE money like Britain did from the rothschilds to defeat Napoleon?

What would happen if an earthquake swarm destroyed major cities on the west coast or in Europe? Would the west be left helpless to defend itself? Or a major pandemic? Would obamacare be sufficient to prevent economic collapse?

Asteroid impact, methane volcano, supervolcano, etc. Any combination of the above. What would happen with our fragile economies? Would they benefit or implode?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
For those fans of China:
"Beijing has chastised the U.S. for fiscal recklessness, but it may be headed for an economic collapse of its own."
"es, this looks a lot like a real-estate bubblewith Chinese characteristics. As for debt problems, Chinese bank loans were 97 percent of GDP in 2008. Now theyre at 120 percent."
http://www.thedai...ems.html
Central national banks will save the world!
[q}Who better to carry debt so the other guy can increase spending than the government?
Someone who wants his money back with interest for the risk of the loan. A govt doesn't care if it gets paid back because they can force the risk onto others.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
Asteroid impact, methane volcano, supervolcano, etc. Any combination of the above. What would happen with our fragile economies?

Mormons save resources for such events. That's what wise people do, be prepared.
Thrasymachus
4 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
Who better to carry debt so the other guy can increase spending than the government?

Someone who wants his money back with interest for the risk of the loan. A govt doesn't care if it gets paid back because they can force the risk onto others.

Wtf? That doesn't even make any sense marjon. People who loan money to the government by buying bonds are assured of getting that money back, plus the stated interest on the face of the note. It's the surest bet there is, which is why the return often doesn't outpace inflation by much if at all. And the reason the government can always pay any mature bond no matter how many there are or how much they're worth is because it can borrow from itself to do so, which allows it to set the terms of the bonds it issues.

As opposed to a private household, business or individual borrowing, who might go broke before they can pay off their loan, meaning it will effectively never get paid back.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 15, 2011
are assured of getting that money back, plus the stated interest on the face of the note.

Until the govt can't take anymore wealth from its victims and if it tries to print its way out, the money won't buy anything.
Govt does not create wealth. It can only take it from those who do.

But why should any govt bother to repay any debt? Why not just nationalize it?
And if it can just print money, why should it need to borrow any money in the first place?
it can borrow from itself to do so, which allows it to set the terms of the bonds it issues.

What if no one but the govt is willing to buy its bonds?
Thrasymachus
3 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
If no one is buying it's bonds, it's because they've got better things to buy, so the government better not be spending in that economy any more than it is taking in through taxes or they'll be competing with private spending, causing inflation. But that's clearly not the case, as $950 billion worth of them were bought on average every day just last month, and that excludes securities with a maturity of less than 1 year.

If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on. With 9% unemployment, failing schools, failing roads and bridges and a failing middle class lifestyle, the government ought to be borrowing that money at the low rates it pays and spending it to address those problems.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
Actually institutions that hold securities very often do so because they are required by agreement or law to have a certain percentage of their holdings in AA AAA rated securities in order to backup their transactions with other financial entities.

This is one of the risks with the U.S. government losing it's AAA status. It would require securities firms to drop substantial U.S. holdings in favor of more highly rated investments. Or could potentially require them to reduce their financial activities and liquidate some of their holdings in other securities in order to stay within their AAA holdings requirements.

You don't have a clue do you Thrasymachus?

"If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on." - Thrasymachus
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
"Govt does not create wealth. It can only take it from those who do." - RyggTard

Absolutely right. National infrastructure like the electric grid, interstate highway system, the internet, etc, have never created a single job.

You are a low grade moron. You do know that don't you RyggTard?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
"Mormons save resources for such events." - RyggTard

Keynesian's do too.

Save during the good times, deficit spend during the bad ones.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.7 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
By definition, national (government) debt is already nationalized.

Laughably your knowledge of how your own country works is even more pathetic than your knowledge of economics.

"But why should any govt bother to repay any debt? Why not just nationalize it?" - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
"I want specifics. Which laws were ignored, which laws were broken." - Me

"http://en.wikiped...0.932000" - Pinkie

A reference that doesn't show that any laws were broken.

I take your response as an admission that your earlier assertion made in the phrase "what laws didn't he break?", was a lie on your part.

"http://www.rollin...0100405" - Pinkie

Woo Hoo.... That is an article about Goldman Sachs, not about the Democrats.

You on drugs boy?
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
"There is no alternative to rapid change.' - Pinkie

And rapid change means a rapid entrance into another Grand Economic Depression with 30 to 50 percent unemployment.

Sorry Charlie, but only fools would take that route.

"And if Democrats were kept in charge, you KNOW they would continue growing spending without limit" - Pinkie

You keep drinking that TeaTard cool aid little boy. Demand that Economic Depression. You deserve every part of it.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"Returning accounting standards back to reality, returning the economy to a rational basis, and restoring sustainability and JUSTICE is not suicide -- even if it would result in several years of extreme pain and dislocation' - Pinkie

Several years? You are clueless. Driving your economy into a Grand Depression as you have demanded will give you 30 years of pain.

Do you even have the capability of comprehending what magnitude of the cumulative loss of GDP your plan imposes on the U.S.? The loss that you would be forced to endure would far exceed by a factor of 2 or 3, the unfunded liabilities that your government has already committed itself to.

It takes a particularly accute kind of stupidity to demand a solution that is 2 to 3 times worse than the problem.

It takes TeaTard stupidity.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
"A patently false number that doesn't subtract debt issuance, and doesn't compensate for extensive undercapitalization and overleverage still pervasive throughout the economy." - Pinkie

Ok, knock off 2 trillion. So the net GDP of the U.S. is 12.5 trillion per year.

"Firstly, the bailout bailed out bankrupt and corrupt institutions that should have been allowed to fail." - Pinkie

And if they had failed, then the entire U.S. financial system would have collapsed due to a lack of secure capital on which to base borrowing.

In the U.S. fractional reserve system of banking, 10 percent or so of money loaned must be kept in reserve to limit the number of times a dollar can be loaned and to provide a cushion against bank runs.

This money is not held in cash, but in various high reliability securities, which in extreme cases - like the government defaulting on it's loans - are considered impeccably secure.

The collapse of one bank impacts on the reserve holdings of other banks cont.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
other banks... thereby reducing the valuation of their reserves and thus legally preventing those banks from issuing loans.

Without loans the U.S. economy experienced massive layoffs, and the poorest economy since the 1920's.

Your "solution" to the banking crisis then was to sit there and do nothing while all banks lost the ability to loans, and thereby the ability to make a profit from those loans.

Your solution was to just allow all of the banks to go bankrupt and take the U.S. economy directly into a decades Grand Economic Recession.

You don't have a clue do you? You on drugs boy?

Ethelred
3 / 5 (6) Aug 16, 2011
VD
I want specifics. Which laws were ignored, which laws were broken.


PE
http://en.wikiped...0.932000


VD
A reference that doesn't show that any laws were broken.
I don't see laws being broken in the Clinton Admin on the timeline either. I do see once case where someone wanted more regulation and resigned when her investigation was shut down.

May: Brooksley Born at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission wants to investigate over the Counter derivatives like credit default swaps; their lack of transparency, lack of regulation, and possible systemic risk. Alan Greenspan, Robert Rubin, and Arthur Levitt of Clinton's Working Group on Financial Markets, and Larry Summers shut her down. She resigns soon after.
While I think this was bad decision it wasn't against the law.>>
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
"Secondly, the bailout addicted the economy to the point that it now relies upon perhaps 20% of its total GDP from nothing more than federal deficit spending (i.e. from charging the collective credit card.)" - Pinkie

Yes, and you can thank Borrow and Spend Republicans for that.
America's rapid decline into economic oblivion started with the massive deficits used by the Reagan Administration to stimulate the economy out of the 1980 recession.

"Borrowing a trillion dollars plus was the greatest thing we ever did." = Reagan Budget adviser.

"Third, if this kind of "savings" continues for another 40 years, at 10% per year the debt will have grown to 656 trillion." - Pinkie

It's more like 1/8th of that.

However even that reduced value is nation destroying and you are now hitting the wall.

It's laughable that your proposed solution is to jump to your own economic death.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"While I think this was bad decision it wasn't against the law." - Ethelred

It was clearly a bad decision, and one that was may have been motivated by personal corruption or Ideological bent. We don't know. But altering the law through a legal means is not illegal.

Further the Bill passed the house and senate of that time, which were both dominated by Republicans.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
Ethelred
3 / 5 (6) Aug 16, 2011
Why ever did you post that link in reply to VD's question? You claimed laws ignored and broken and you posted something did not in any way support the claim.

And the other link does mention Bill Clinton but mostly it is about Goldman-Sachs and Republican behavior.

That was a strange post from. It was like you were channeling Marjon. Please do not go that way.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Aug 16, 2011
Save during the good times, deficit spend during the bad ones.

Socialists don't SAVE during the good times. They SPEND more because they must TAKE everything from their serfs.
Mormons work, earn wealth, and then save that wealth in various ways.
Govt only takes the wealth others earn.
If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on.

And this is a good thing? A govt promoting economic growth and prosperity would not think this a good thing.
Thrasymachus
1 / 5 (1) Aug 16, 2011
Perhaps you should re-read my post Vendi. That $950 billion dollars per day trading volume was in securities with a longer maturity than one year. I don't believe there is any requirement that any institution is required to hold any amount of long-term securities. That so many of them are being bought indicates that private institutions and households are preferring to lend their money to the government, even with that low return, than preferring to lend it to someone else for better returns, or spend it on stocks of futures.

And the fractional reserve system does not operationally hinder banks from making loans. If a bank lacks the necessary reserves to back a loan they've already decided to make, they can borrow those reserves from other banks, or in the last case, from the Federal Reserve. It is the creditworthiness of borrowers that limits lending, not the reserve position of banks.
Thrasymachus
3 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011

If private institutions are buying government securities with their low yields, it's because they don't have anything better to spend their money on.

And this is a good thing? A govt promoting economic growth and prosperity would not think this a good thing.

It's neither good nor bad, it's what free individuals choose to do with their money. There are literally untold numbers of reasons a person would rather not spend their money and instead buys government bonds. Would you rather deprive those individuals of that choice?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
Would you rather deprive those individuals of that choice?

The govt is depriving people of their money by having to use confiscated wealth, AKA taxes, to pay the interest on the bonds.
Why not let the people keep more of their wealth as they know better than the govt as to how to make more.
And if there were not govt bonds, which have an unfair market advantage as govts have the power to take wealth to pay them back, investors would seek alternatives in the market place.
Gawad
5 / 5 (1) Aug 16, 2011
You keep drinking that TeaTard cool aid little boy. Demand that Economic Depression. You deserve every part of it.
You know, if it were only "TeaTard" Republicans insisting on flushing themselves down the toilet at this point, I couldn't care less. Thing is, if the 100 story American economic edifice, with its cracked masonry, overstressed load bearing walls and looted I-beams, comes crumbling down, it won't just take TeaPublicans with it. And its neighbors across the street will probably also be crushed under the debris no matter how responsibly they've been running their own house.

That isn't a pleasant prospect and once there it won't matter much anymore who's fault it was. Unless we're cutting heads off at that point.

I agree with your overall assessment, VD, but PE does point out some important problems, not the least of which is the US's 2yr campaign cycle which makes it very easy to just punt big long terms problems like this down the road.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 16, 2011
That isn't a pleasant prospect and once there it won't matter much anymore who's fault it was. Unless we're cutting heads off at that point.

It does matter who is at fault to prevent the same thing from happening again.
That's what the corrupt union/govt construction industry wants, crisis. The govt will have to throw money at them to fix everything. Then the unions will recycle that into political campaign coffers.
Better to limit the power of the govt which limits its corruptibility.
Gawad
1 / 5 (1) Aug 16, 2011
It does matter who is at fault to prevent the same thing from happening again.
No. The specific "who" makes no real difference, it's the what, how and why that does.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
"Socialists don't SAVE during the good times." - RyggTard

The Liberal government in Canada did. That is one reason why Canada has a 5 percent unemployment rate compared to the U.S. rate of 9 percent.

The socialists in Norway, Denmark and Sweden were also saving during periods of economic strength. China has been investing heavily during their "good times" and now own a substantial amount of America - sold to them by the Republicans.

And in America we have the Clinton Surplus during the good times of the 2000's.

During the good years of the Reagan Administration Reagan ran huge budget deficits, the same with Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Deficits that sum to 11 trillion of the 14.5 trillion Federal Debt.

cont.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
Canada is a particularly telling example, because while the Liberals were actually paying down the national debt - created by Conservative, Borrow and Spend, Brian Mulroney government during the Reagan Era - the Conservative Opposition and Canada's Tea Tard fringe the "Refooooooooorm party", were demanding that any taxation surplus was in fact "excess taxation" and "stolen money" that should be returned to the Canadian people rather than being used to pay down the national debt.

The Liberals wisely and to the great benefit of Canadians ignored these Conservative idiots and used that excess to reduce the national debt. They did so every year for years until the Conservatives were elected at which point they used the excess to provide tax breaks to their constituents, and began the Conservative imperative of Borrow and Spend again.

The pattern is pretty much the same everywhere. Conservatives bankrupting their nations through borrow and spend policies.
freethinking
1 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
20 million here http://www.komone...048.html
58 million here
http://www.thebla...o-china/

You got to love government green job scam.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
Of course the guilty party (Libertairan/Randite ideologues in this instance) never wants to be blamed for their ideological failures. Doing so would discredit their ideology.

"It does matter who is at fault to prevent the same thing from happening again." - RyggTard

Rational people assign blame so that the credibility of the comments made by those responsible for the failure (Libertarian/Randites) can be lowered.

Every Libertarian/Randite policy ever tried by the Republicans has been an unmitigated failure - from borrow and spend fiscal policies, to banking deregulation.

The only people left pushing Libertarianism/Randism are either corrupt corporates or wallstreeters or those who are terminally ignorant.

RyggTard is an example of the latter.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"20 million here http://www.komone...048.html" - FreeDumb

That would be 20 million not spent, sitting in the city's bank account waiting for home owners to get started with the program. However Bush Recession 2 caused by the Libertarian Ideology of Ayn Rand disciple Alan Greenspan - has so damaged the local economy that few home owners can afford to pay their share of the costs of the insulation.

"The company specializes in creating solar panels. The decreasing demand for that technology coupled with lower-cost competition in China put the company on its heels. When it shipped some of its production out of the United States to a factory in Wuhan, China, company officials said they would have to start laying off American workers." - FreeDumb

Decreasing demand for Solar Panels? Ahahahahahahahahaha....

The world added about 16 gigawatts of new solar photovoltaic (PV) power in 2010, double the growth seen a year earlier, the European Photovoltaic Industry Association told Reuters
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
"And its neighbors across the street will probably also be crushed under the debris no matter how responsibly they've been running their own house." - Gawad

It is the price of allowing the Libertarian Ideological cancer from becoming so pervasive in Republican politics.

It was easier to be complacent to the growing disconnection from reality in Republican politics that it was to expose and destroy that fantasy land ideology.

The price is is probably oblivion, and escape is as easy as leaving the U.S. for more a more rational nation.

"Unless we're cutting heads off at that point." - Gawad

The public hangings of Republicans for treason should have been started after the first Bush Jr. administration.

There is still time to redeem yourselves in that regard.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
"PE does point out some important problems, not the least of which is the US's 2yr campaign cycle which makes it very easy to just punt big long terms problems like this down the road." - Gawad

Nothing is written in stone. Every rule can be changed.

The problem is that half of Americans are so stupid that they have, by voting Republican, been voting for the very policies that they oppose.

Education is impossible with these people as their ideology is fixed for life. As a result, you will either have to endure their continued economic treason, or make an example of a few thousand of them through public hangings.

All you need are a few trees. I will provide all the rope you need.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011

"Borrowing a trillion dollars plus is the greatest thing we ever did." - Reagan Budget advisor

"There is no such thing as the federal debt." - Rush Limbaugh.

"Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." - Dick Cheney

"The govt is depriving people of their money by having to use confiscated wealth, AKA taxes, to pay the interest on the bonds." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"And the fractional reserve system does not operationally hinder banks from making loans. If a bank lacks the necessary reserves to back a loan they've already decided to make, they can borrow those reserves from other banks, or in the last case, from the Federal Reserve." - Thrasymachus

Clearly you don't understand the nature of the 2008 banking crisis.

Banks couldn't loan to each other because virtually every bank had to one extent or another been investing in the same toxic assets, or had holdings in financial institutions that had already gone bankrupt.

Further, the banks were correctly holding mortgaged property as collateral in their reserves. With housing prices crashing so were the banks reserve holdings.

Both of these effects were so extreme that banks did not have the reserves to provide loans to people or other banks.

cont.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
Finally, the Federal Reserve itself did not have the money to loan to banks as the Fed on it's own has finite dollars in it's account, and is also restricted to carry cash as a reserve. The fed on it's own can also not create money.

So the Fed rapidly found that it could not lend either.

And it is for this reason that the Trillion dollars in stimulus cash was authorized by congress and created by the FED as a response to the crisis.

With that trillion dollars, the FED could then begin to loan to banks and those banks could then pass down the loans to businesses and individuals.

That is why the crisis is referred to as a liquidity crisis. There wasn't enough liquid (money) to keep the machinery of commerce going.

The solution... Add More Money.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
Gawad
5 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
As a result, you will either have to endure their continued economic treason, or make an example of a few thousand of them through public hangings.

All you need are a few trees. I will provide all the rope you need.
Careful VD, don't get all warm and fuzzy on us!

Anyway, you appear to be mistaking me for an American. Just want to clear that up...just in case.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"If the federal government's regulatory operation were a business, it would be one of the 50 biggest in the country in terms of revenues, and the third largest in terms of employees, with more people working for it than McDonald's, Ford, Disney and Boeing combined.

Under President Obama, while the economy is struggling to grow and create jobs, the federal regulatory business is booming.

Regulatory agencies have seen their combined budgets grow a healthy 16% since 2008, topping $54 billion, according to the annual "Regulator's Budget," compiled by George Washington University and Washington University in St. Louis.

That's at a time when the overall economy grew a paltry 5%.

Meanwhile, employment at these agencies has climbed 13% since Obama took office to more than 281,000, while private-sector jobs shrank by 5.6%."
http://www.invest...g-Up.htm
Why don't the scientists complain about this?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
RyggTard is fond of claiming that the deregulation of the banking industry didn't cause the housing bubble, and the economic disaster caused by the subsequent misrepresentation of the value of bad mortgages by banking industry.

Now when the banks are re-regulated in order to prevent similar problems in the future, he complains that there has been an explosion of unnecessary regulation.

Clearly his Libertarian/Randite ideology is as toxic and poisonous as it comes.

"Regulatory agencies have seen their combined budgets grow a healthy 16% since 2008, topping $54 billion, according to the annual "Regulator's Budget," compiled by George Washington University and Washington University in St. Louis." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
freethinking
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
VD is a Progressive lunatic who espouses killing those that disagree with him. Has anyone who claims to be conservative on this board espoused killing another person?
If you are a progressive, do you agree with VD's feelings?
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
"VD is a Progressive lunatic who espouses killing those that disagree with him." - FreeTard

The crime of Treason exists for a reason. The ultimate punishment is death. Republicans/Libertarians/Randites have actively been engaged in acts of treason against the state.

The conclusions to be drawn are self evident, and will become obvious in the very near future when retribution against the traitors begins.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

By this definition, in the Constitution, the socialist Federal govt has committed treason by levying war against the states.
ziphead
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
"VD is a Progressive lunatic who espouses killing those that disagree with him." - FreeTard

The crime of Treason exists for a reason. The ultimate punishment is death. Republicans/Libertarians/Randites have actively been engaged in acts of treason against the state.

The conclusions to be drawn are self evident, and will become obvious in the very near future when retribution against the traitors begins.


Lets start the countdown to Vendickarian's expulsion from yet another forum:
http://forums.reg.../18858/3

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
VD is a socialist sympathizer, just like the editors.
He won't be banned.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (3) Aug 16, 2011
"shall consist only in levying War against them." - RyggTard

Waging war against America is the only thing Libertarians and Randites have been doing for the last 40 years.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) Aug 16, 2011
RyggTard is a Libertarian traitor to his own nation.

For the crime of giving aid and comfort to the Libertarian enemy he will most probably be convicted of treason against his own nation.

freethinking
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 17, 2011
Lets not get VD banned, he expresses plainly what progressives believes. If the other progressives (or liberals)on this board don't say a word or rates this lunatic progressive comments a 5, don't they show the progressive movement for what it is? Don't they too show that they agree with him in principle?
Gawad
5 / 5 (2) Aug 17, 2011
Lets not get VD banned, he expresses plainly what progressives believes.
Suuure. Just as you and Marj are supposed to be typical "conservatives". [Rolls eyes. Yawns.]

AFAIC, scoring posts are about the ideas in those posts--and how post from one author hang together from one to the other. Can't speak for anyone else, but I don't automatically rate post a certain way because they come from a particular person. Even Marj gets an occasional 4 or 5 from me, when he makes a sound point. Then again, he's actually evidently quite a bit smarter than you are.

Of course, I sure wish he'd answer VD's two questions....
Gawad
3 / 5 (2) Aug 17, 2011
For the record, I do agree that calling for anyone's execution for political reasons is completely over the top and irresponsible. It's on par with 3rd world tin pot dictator thinking, and I think VD only contributes to discrediting himself (including an otherwise largely correct economic analysis) by throwing out such statements.
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (7) Aug 17, 2011
Don't they too show that they agree with him in principle?
Considering the stuff you give ones to that is pretty rich. However I only give his good stuff 5's not the over the top crap that is difficult to distinguish, behaviorally,from your or especially Marjons crap. Both of you lie frequently, engage in ludicrous claims that progressive = communist and are irrational much of the rest of the time.

For instance both you and The Somali Pirate Captain are found telling the lie that taxes = theft. If either of you don't feel like paying the bill for a being an American you both move to Somalia anytime. It will improve the country.

Note that I do not recommend calling you and the Pirate traitors. Well not both of you anyway. Marjon posts here when he is supposed to be working for the people that voted him into office not knowing just what he really thinks. I think that is betraying their trust at the very least though it doesn't fit the definition of treason.

Ethelred
freethinking
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 17, 2011
Interesting that Ethelred wants two conservatives to move to Somalia, yet doesnt condemn VD calling for the execution of conservatives.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 17, 2011
If either of you don't feel like paying the bill for a being an American

The correct response is to support politicians who want to reduce the size, scope and power of the govt.
That's what I and a few others advocate here and elsewhere.
If Ethel and VD and others here LIKE bending over and grabbing your ankles for the federal govt, I am sure YOU could find other govts around the world that will accommodate.
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 17, 2011
Interesting that Ethelred wants two conservatives to move to Somalia,/q]I never said any such a thing.

I only said that you should move there if you don't want to pay the bill for living in America or any other country that has taxes. Taxes are part of living in decent country. Calling taxes theft is a lie. Vote against taxes with your feet. Somalia has no taxes as it has no government in any real sense. Thus it is ideal for all those Ann Rand fans. Also you and Marjon are not Conservatives. You are radicals and that is not conservative.

Interesting that antithinker doesn't understand that the Somalia has exactly the kind of government and economic system that he and Marjon are demanding.

Now unlike Marjon you have not supported Somali piracy so I have not suggested that you become a pirate.

Since it is now clear that you think Somalia is dangerous perhaps it is time reconsider your idiotic ideas on government.

It would also be nice if you would stop lying.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3 / 5 (6) Aug 17, 2011
VD calling for the execution of conservatives.
And that is also a lie since I clearly said he was wrong on that. Have done so multiple times.

Lying all the time rots your brain. You really need to stop doing that.

What I have been backing is what he has said about economics. He understands it and you don't. Neither you or Marjon have a clue as to how banks work or what a Reserve System is good for. The US has foolishly shut down a Federal Reserve system before. Don't know how many times but Andrew Jackson did and he wrecked the US economy by doing so. England was poverty stricken before the creation of the Bank Of England.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 17, 2011
what a Reserve System is good for.

What it's for is to inflate the money supply so the govt can borrow and spend more.
That's been working really well for the past 100 years? NO!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Aug 17, 2011
"As a fractional-reserve profit-making institution, its natural and inevitable tendency was to inflate. As a quasi-government bank, its natural tendency was to preserve for the government the option of borrowing paper money to finance their wars. All governments would rather borrow than tax. Samuel Tilden, a hard-money US senator from New York, put it well: "How could a large bank, constituted on essentially the same principles, be expected to regulate beneficially the lesser banks? Has enlarged power been found to be less liable to abuse than limited power? Has concentrated power been found less liable to abuse than distributed power?" Let the record of the Federal Reserve since 1914 bear witness."
http://mises.org/...trol=478
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2011
"What it's for is to inflate the money supply so the govt can borrow and spend more." - RyggTard

Poor, clueless RyggTard.

The money supply needs to be inflated so that it can accommodate the growth in the population.

Failure to inflate the money supply with a growing population means that dollars become more scarce, and this reduces the amount of money available for loans that businesses use to remain in business.

You are dumber than dumb Tard boy.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2011
"As a fractional-reserve profit-making institution" - RyggTard

And those profits are turned over to the federal government I.E. the American people.

You didn't know that did you Tard Boy?

"All governments would rather borrow than tax." - RyggTard

Just as all Americans would rather borrow than save.

The problem with government is that it is very difficult to save since the quantities of cash are so immense that they distort the economy. So Governments typically use the money to increase the growth of the national economy, knowing that it will benefit their citizens and put them in an improved position to pay back the loans.

You just don't get it do you RyggTard.

You remain absolutely clueless.

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2011
"The correct response is to support politicians who want to reduce the size, scope and power of the govt." - RyggTard

Americans have been doing that for the last 40 years, and America has economically collapsed as a result of their WhackTard Libertarian policies.

More of the same Libertarian/Randite poison will not save your nation, but will in fact hasten it's collapse.

That is the stated goal of Libertarians. And that is why they/you are traitors to your own nation.

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 18, 2011
it's for is to inflate the money supply so the govt can borrow and spend more
So close to reality but so much idiotology added in.

Its to INCREASE the money supply to match the economy. Without that the economy will stall and then collapse. As happened when Andy Jackson killed bank. Inflating the money supply works for anyone that borrows so it is a lie to claim that it is for the government.

But lying is normal for idiotologues. When reality gets in the way of the idiotology they respond by making shit up. Like the crap that with.

That's been working really well for the past 100 years?
Every time it was allowed to. And each time there was a problem it was because an idiotologue sabotaged the system. Like the aforementioned Andy Jackson and the idiots that made the Great Depression far worse than it would have been had they actually done their jobs and engaged in regulation.

continue to await your answer


Don't hold your breath. Marjon hates reality.

Ethelred
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2011
"Don't hold your breath. Marjon hates reality" - Ethelred

As do all Libertarian/Randites.

Death is the only cure.

Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 18, 2011
People can change their minds. Even Marjon. Even you.

Death is the end of the possibility.

Can the psychotic posts please. They undermine the rational stuff you post.

Ethelred
freethinking
1 / 5 (4) Aug 18, 2011
Ok Ethelred, where did you condemn VD? All I read was you saying we should go to Somolia?
Progressives communistists ??? http://www.thebla...ference/

Progressives lie, people die.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (3) Aug 18, 2011
"People can change their minds. Even Marjon. Even you." - Ethelred

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." - Max Planck

The same is true for Ideologies. Specifically failed Libertarian/Randite ideologies.
Ethelred
2.8 / 5 (5) Aug 18, 2011
Ok Ethelred, where did you condemn VD?
Right above your idiot post. Learn how to read.

And no I did NOT say you go to Somalia.

I said IF you don't want to pay taxes THEN you should go.

If that logical construction is beyond you, which wouldn't surprise me, then why are you on this site.

Progressives lie, people die.
Progressives tell the truth people die, right wingers tell the truth people die, right wingers lie people die.

People die.

And it doesn't matter how many times you lie about it Progressive does not equal Communist.

And agreeing with Mao on SOME things is does not make one a communist especially when it is clear the wack job that wrote the article agreed with both of them on this. A strong military IS political force and does from the end of a gun.

Now what kind of lie are you going tell this time? Going to lie that political power does not require guns? Going to back that up by showing a pacifist nation with political power?

Ethelred
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 18, 2011
Max Planck
Max was brilliant but that statement is full of shit.

I change my mind when the evidence supports the ideas. Such as the idea of electrons orbiting a nucleus. Scientist DO change their minds. Those that don't become Cranks like Oliver or the Arps. Plenty of scientists have changed their minds only a few become cranks.

So don't make Marjon quotes. That foolish statement by Planck is a favorite of Marjon.

Ethelred
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Aug 18, 2011
Every time it was allowed to. And each time there was a problem it was because an idiotologue sabotaged the system. Like the aforementioned Andy Jackson and the idiots that made the Great Depression far worse than it would have been had they actually done their jobs and engaged in regulation.
Well, actually, their Jobs were to prepare the country for war, in both cases. Which they did admirably. Just as we have been prepared. For war.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 18, 2011
The Federal Reserve is supposed to keep the value of the dollar STABLE.
Well, let's say they decide that they don't want to increase the value of the money (deflation) so they decide to keep a bit of inflation. Just a little,say 1% to people won't notice too much. People get 2-3% salary increases per year and people feel more wealthy.
The govt sells 30 year bonds that have an automatic 30% discount. (1.01)^30 = 1.34. They get $100 for the bond but only have to repay ~$65. Great deal for the govt, bad for the rest of us.

"And what happened is that [the Federal Reserve] followed policies which led to a decline in the quantity of money by a third. For every $100 in paper money, in deposits, in cash, in currency, in existence in 1929, by the time you got to 1933 there was only about $65, $66 left.

Read more: Bernanke: Federal Reserve caused Great Depression http://www.wnd.co...VQMtE1cj
"
ziphead
1 / 5 (1) Aug 18, 2011

And no I did NOT say you go to Somalia.
I said IF you don't want to pay taxes THEN you should go.
If that logical construction is beyond you, which wouldn't surprise me, then why are you on this site.


Why it has to be Somalia? Why not Monaco?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 18, 2011
Plenty of scientists have changed their minds only a few become cranks.

Like Paul Ehrlich?
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 19, 2011
Why it has to be Somalia? Why not Monaco?
Because Marjon supports Somalian piracy and Monaco has a government whereas the Somalian government is a bad joke. Monaco does not match the fantasies of Ann Rand. Somalia does.

I think that covers it. There is more if you really want to read the astoundingly specious replies Marjon has written after I pointed out the Somalia fits his definition of how governments should function, which is not at all.

After months of this I think he has finally figured out that he was complete ass in those posts and now just ignores it and pretends it never happened. Much like the way he ignores Vendicar's rather relevant questions. Now if he completely ignored Vendicar I could understand as Vendicar is an utter ass himself rather frequently. But he DOES reply to Vendicar.>>
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 19, 2011
He has been ignoring reality all his life and relevant questions his entire time here. So I can no reason that he should not be champing at the bit to move to that lovely AnnRandFantasyLandTM of Somalia. That he has not done this and instead posts while at work, as elected official, I have to assume he is just particular rancid troll. Which is why I now only make the occasional derisive post for him. Or rather to entertain myself and others. I am not going to waste time pointing out all the errors of someone that worthless. Pretty much everything he says is either a lie, idiotic, or radical but pretending to be conservative. He has actually posted stuff he edited to change the meaning.

A complete wanker. Right after your post he wanked off again. He gets his jollies by lying.

Ethelred
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 19, 2011
Have it your way Noumenon.

Ethelred
freethinking
1 / 5 (4) Aug 19, 2011
Ethelred, you are a supporter of VD, and you lie that Rygg supports piracy. If Rygg is an elected official, let me know who he is? Given his knowlege of ecconomics he should be a good one. I'll contact who you say rygg is and confirm it if it's true.
Gawad
5 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
you lie that Rygg supports piracy
Bullshit. Marjon consistently and repeatedly referred to Somali pirates as merely engaging in COMMERCE. THAT'S support freefromthinking, no matter how you want to paint it. And it's neither conservative nor sane!
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2011
"We have a policy of making anyone who attacks us pay dearly for it," he added. "We are implementing this policy in the field."

On Thursday, Netanyahu said, "We all witnessed today an attempt to escalate the terrorist war against Israel by launching of attacks from the Sinai. If there is someone who thinks that the State of Israel will let this pass, he is mistaken."

He continued: "I have set out a principle when the citizens of Israel are attacked, we respond immediately and with strength. That principle was implemented today. Those who gave the order to murder our citizens, while hiding in Gaza, are no longer among the living."

-The EMPIRE Strikes Back-
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 19, 2011
Ethelred, you are a supporter of VD, and you lie that Rygg supports piracy. If Rygg is an elected official, let me know who he is? Given his knowlege of ecconomics he should be a good one. I'll contact who you say rygg is and confirm it if it's true.
Rygg is dis guy:
http://www.youtub...NiTwHOsM

-Nice codpiece.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
Somali pirates violate the property rights of the ship owners, passengers and crew.
What motivated the piracy was the nation state of China over fishing Somali waters putting those fisherman out of work.
International laws limit the capability of ships to defend themselves.
High taxes in many countries drive ships to be flagged in Liberia or some other country with out a navy. US Navy is obligated to protect US flagged ships.
So the pirates were created, operate and profit in a limbo created by the nation-states.
Govt is great?
Javinator
5 / 5 (3) Aug 19, 2011
So the pirates were created, operate and profit in a limbo created by the nation-states.
Govt is great?


If government were abolished globally the whole world would be a limbo where pirates run rampant everywhere. Living without laws puts us all at the mercy of those without a conscience.

It's not the government's fault that there are pirates. The pirates are terrible people trying to take advantage of those around them.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
It's not the government's fault that there are pirates. The pirates are terrible people trying to take advantage of those around them.
OR they are desperate and resourceful tribalists forced into 'crime' in an overcrowded region. Attacks on other tribes in contention for resources is NOT crime, biologically speaking.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
If government were abolished globally the whole world would be a limbo where pirates run rampant everywhere.

Govt has failed to stop the pirates. Why?
Why do govts deny private shipping the right of self-defense?
Javinator
5 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
OR they are desperate and resourceful tribalists forced into 'crime' in an overcrowded region. Attacks on other tribes in contention for resources is NOT crime, biologically speaking.


Biologically speaking there are no crimes Otto. Survival of the fittest and all that.

Look, I'm not saying that they've got it great in Somalia or anything, but when you're kidnapping and killing people to steal what they have for yourself you lose my sympathy pretty quickly.
Javinator
5 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
Govt has failed to stop the pirates. Why?


There essentially is no government in Somalia. That's the whole point people are making against your philosophy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
The piracy occurs in international waters. Why can't ships vigorously defend themselves?
If Somalia has no govt, what stops other govts from attacking the pirates as Thomas Jefferson did?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2011
Look, I'm not saying that they've got it great in Somalia or anything, but when you're kidnapping and killing people to steal what they have for yourself you lose my sympathy pretty quickly.
Unless you were to find yourself in the unfortunate position of having to do so in order for your family to survive.
Biologically speaking there are no crimes Otto. Survival of the fittest and all that.
Crimes against the laws of nature? Lets see... naw, offhand I cant think of any. T gondii comes to mind but it IS brilliant at survival.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2011
""The first pirate gangs emerged in the '90s to protect against foreign trawlers," says Peter Lehr, lecturer in terrorism studies at Scotland's University of St. Andrews and editor of Violence at Sea: Piracy in the Age of Global Terrorism. The names of existing pirate fleets, such as the National Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia or Somali Marines, are testament to the pirates' initial motivations.
"High-seas trawlers from countries as far flung as South Korea, Japan and Spain have operated down the Somali coast, often illegally and without licenses, for the better part of two decades, the U.N. says. They often fly flags of convenience from sea-faring friendly nations like Belize and Bahrain, which further helps the ships skirt international regulations and evade censure from their home countries.

Read more: http://www.time.c...,00.html#ixzz1VWEeoNsw]http://www.time.c...VWEeoNsw[/url]
http://www.time.c...,00.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2011
"In the early days of Somali piracy, those who seized trawlers without licenses could count on a quick ransom payment, since the boat owners and companies backing those vessels didn't want to draw attention to their violation of international maritime law. This, Charo reckons, allowed the pirates to build up their tactical networks and whetted their appetite for bigger spoils."
http://www.time.c...,00.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2011
""The first pirate gangs emerged in the '90s...The names of existing pirate fleets, such as the National Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia or Somali Marines
Aw, they weren't REALLY the marines.
"High-seas trawlers from countries as far flung as South Korea, Japan and Spain have operated down the Somali coast
Yes, in ryggspeak this is called 'freemarketeering'.
often illegally and without licenses, for the better part of two decades, the U.N. says. They often fly flags of convenience from sea-faring friendly nations like Belize and Bahrain, which further helps the ships skirt international regulations and evade censure from their home countries.
And in ryggspeak this is only freemarketeers resisting big govt controls and fishing wherever the hll they wanted to. Because they could.

I fail to see your point.
freethinking
1 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
Still waiting for Still waiting for the contact information for Rygg from someone else other than Rygg. If you know who he is, please let me know or you are once again caught lying.
Still could not find a reference for Rygg supporting Somali pirates.
What a surprise that progressives on this board are accusing someone of lying, then blatantly lying themselves. Then again, arent they just following SOP of progressives?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Aug 19, 2011
And in ryggspeak this is only freemarketeers resisting big govt controls and fishing wherever the hll they wanted to. Because they could.

I fail to see your point.

If the govts that created the international treaties to protect fishing rights won't enforce them, then it is the tragedy of the commons and open war at sea.
The people who bought illegally caught fish from Somali waters were from nation-states that ostensibly approved of fishing restrictions in Somali waters, yet failed to enforce the law.
So the independent fishermen from the state formerly known as Somalia are trying to protect their territory from invasion. Illegal fishing boats pay the ransom as they know they are committing an illegal act. The pirates find it too lucrative to stop seizing ships at sea and no legal entity has the political will to stop them.
So overall, the situation is, again, caused by govts failing to protect property rights.
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 19, 2011
Ethelred, you are a supporter of VD
AntiTruth is lying again. I support the rational stuff and it is not my fault that you are totally ignorant about economics. I made it quite clear that I do not support VD's kill people stuff.

and you lie that Rygg supports piracy.
Since you are still saying that even after he started supporting it right after you made this post I am replying to I would have to say that you either can't read Marjon's posts or you simply are insane. He is clearly supporting Somali piracy on this thread. Rationalizing excuses for their behavior IS support. Taking fishing ships could have been arranged as privateering IF they had a government.

So you can either admit it after you see this or you can lie just you are doing when you claim I support VD's advocating death to Right Wingers. I never supported it.

Its not my fault that Marjon supports the Somali Pirates. He is very much trying to justify it and that is support.>>
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 19, 2011
If Rygg is an elected official, let me know who he is?
John Swenson. Please notice that he has NEVER denied it. Even when I pointed out that he evades denying it. He just says people lie about things but never ever has actually said he is not John Swenson.

If he says he is not Johan Swenson after this post that will be the first time he has done so. I sm not taking Sceptic Heretic's word on this. I am going on Marjon's evasive behavior. I do find it strange that a person that lies so much can't bring himself to say he is not John Swenson even if he is. But he not yet done so. I consider that ample evidence that he is Swenson.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3 / 5 (2) Aug 19, 2011
Otto do you want some too?

Noumenen hasn't made a single post here. That is why I responded in kind. Please note that even Marjon does not receive ones for every post from me. Just the posts he lies in or quotes wack jobs. Or supports insanity like the Somali pirates. This is most of his posts. But not all.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 19, 2011
Why does Ethel defend the failure of many govts to 1) stop the pirates and 2) enforce the international fishing laws?
After all, the UN is the wet dream of 'progressives'. It fails to enforce any laws it enacts and enables massive corruption.

It's also interesting the SH and now Ethel seem it important to find out who I am. Why should that matter? It is a typical tactic of the 'progressive' to personally attack their opponents when they cannot defend their 'progressive' policies.
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 20, 2011
Why does Ethel defend the failure of many govts to
You do lie so damn much. Where the hell did I do that?

It's also interesting the SH and now Ethel seem it important to find out who I am.
No. SH did that. I am just using the now readily available information to point out just what a over the top hypocrite you are.

Progressive or any other political preference is not involved in this. Utter and complete hypocrisy is.

And I dealt with all your vast amount of crap long ago. There are only so lies you can tell before a person has to just stop pretending that you are engaging in reasoned discourse and tell the truth.

The truth is that you ARE a liar and a hypocrite. No sense trying to discuss anything with a creature like Marjon.

And I thank you for once again making it clear that you are indeed John Swenson. Yet another opportunity to say you are not the same person and yet again you attack people for saying you are him instead of simply saying you aren't.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Aug 20, 2011
Why to 'progressives' waste so much time, and their 1000 work limit, trying to personally attack their opposition instead of providing data demonstrating the success of their policies?
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Aug 20, 2011
Particle physics is a remnant of cold war and nuclear arms race and it has (nearly) no practical usage. No particle revealed at colliders during last seventy years is of some practical importance. Instead of it, the particle physicists are ignoring the cold fusion findings for twenty years. What could we lost, if we close all colliders and gravitational wave detectors? Absolutely nothing for further fifty years.
freethinking
1 / 5 (3) Aug 20, 2011
Rygg, progressives first lie, then shout, then distort, then use the phrase you lie, then shout you lie, then they threaten, on and on it goes. They are running scared now as the truth is coming out. People are on longer scared of them, and in 2012 , even with progressive thuggary, cheating, threats, violence, they will no longer be in charge.
Callippo
1 / 5 (1) Aug 20, 2011
It's a question of strategic decision - at the moment, when the society has no money and it's at low stage of evolution, it has no meaning to invest into research, whose results will become obsolete faster, then it could be used in wider extent.

If you play a Civilization game, you should know, it has no meaning to invest into research, whose results aren't applicable at the present level (epoch) of your game. Scientists are lobby like every other group of people, the main reason of whom is to protect their interests, not the interest of the rest of civilization.

This is the reason, why useless Higgs boson research consumes billions of dollars, whereas the cold fusion and another findings, which could really help the rest of people are ignored with mainstream physicists. Everyone who is not completely blind can see it.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Aug 20, 2011
""Right now, not one vessel with an armed security team that has been attacked as ever been taken," Captain James Staples, an expert on international piracy who has himself used a firearm to protect a ship forma an attempted hijacking."
"During the first decade of the 21st century, ....the UN, EU and others...maintained policies against the use of firearms for protection aboard ships."
"In February the International Chamber of Shipping reversed policy and began call for the presence of armed security on ships."
America's Freedom, Sept 2011, p31

Javinator
not rated yet Aug 22, 2011
Unless you were to find yourself in the unfortunate position of having to do so in order for your family to survive.


See, now that's a tough question because I haven't been put into that position. I understand what you're saying and that I shouldn't be passing judgement on people when I haven't been in their situation.

That being said, I've been mugged and I've got to say I have a tough time imagining a state where I'd be willing to threaten to kill/kill someone to steal what they have.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Aug 22, 2011
See, now that's a tough question because I haven't been put into that position. I understand what you're saying and that I shouldn't be passing judgement on people when I haven't been in their situation.
I'm just saying that there can be different Perspectives than the ones we read in the news. One tribes freedom fighters can be another tribes terrorists. What is good for your tribe can be bad for your enemies and vice versa.

I never had to kill for food either but I can understand that the propensity is within me and most everybody else, including xians and any other religionist who may wish to deny it.

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