Americans vastly overestimate progress toward racial economic equality

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Americans appear profoundly unaware of the vast economic inequality that persists between black and white Americans in contemporary society, according to a new study by researchers at Yale University.

The study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences, finds that people tend to overestimate societal progress in reducing race-based economic inequality in the country. This misperception is largely driven by a tendency to view greater racial economic equality today than federal statistics show actually exists, the researchers assert.

"Our findings suggest that Americans tend to be too optimistic about the scope of in the United States, specifically in the domain of ," said Jennifer A. Richeson, the Philip R. Allen Professor of Psychology at Yale and co-author of the report. "Unfounded optimism of this sort is likely to hinder efforts to reduce racial economic inequality, or even discover its causes. People will not attempt to solve problems that they are either unaware of or believe do not exist."

Over four studies, white and black Americans from across the income spectrum, reported their perceptions of the degree of racial equality that currently exists and existed in the past on five economic indicators: hourly wages of college graduates, hourly wages of high school graduates, household , household income, and employer-provided health benefits. The researchers weighed participants' estimates against federal data and found that average estimates of current levels of racial economic equality exceeded reality by roughly 25%.

Contrary to participants' perceptions, federal data reveals persistent disparities between black and white Americans on most economic outcomes and a particularly stark racial disparity in wealth. Specifically, according to federal statistics, for every $100 of wealth accumulated by a white American family, a black American family has just over $5—a gap that is just as wide as it was 50 years ago.

High-income white Americans were more likely to overestimate racial economic equality compared to both low-income white Americans and black Americans across all income levels, according to the researchers. They also found that people's belief that society is just and fair predicted their tendency to overestimate racial economic equality.

"People want to live in a society where things operate in a fair and just way—that is the dominant national narrative regarding racial progress in the United States," said Michael Kraus, assistant professor of organizational behavior at Yale School of Management and a co-author of the paper. "Instead of engaging with all of the problems inherent in a system that has a massive wealth gap, people will adjust their beliefs to accommodate a more comfortable narrative. It is simply easier to believe the wealth gap doesn't exist or that it exists only due to factors like individual merit or effort."

Follow-up experiments revealed that inducing white participants to think about black individuals and families who are similar to themselves and their own families increased their tendency to overestimate racial economic equality. Inducing white participants to consider the salience of societal racial discrimination, on the other hand, reduced their tendency to overestimate racial economic .

The researchers note that their results suggest a need for scholarship and public policy debates to explicitly consider how economic outcomes continue to be patterned by race and, by extension, the continuing role of structural and other forms of racial discrimination in the creation of these race-based economic disparities.


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Research finds entrenched hiring bias against African-Americans

More information: Michael W. Kraus et al. Americans misperceive racial economic equality, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (2017). DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1707719114
Provided by Yale University
Citation: Americans vastly overestimate progress toward racial economic equality (2017, September 19) retrieved 18 August 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2017-09-americans-vastly-overestimate-racial-economic.html
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Sep 19, 2017
Why do they keep saying race in this article when only two races are mentioned out of more than 6?
The article seems racist in this regard

Sep 19, 2017
If you read the article - the first line says
Americans appear profoundly unaware of the vast economic inequality that persists between black and white Americans in contemporary society
So the subject of today's article is the disparity between blacks, and whites. If you work in Education - you know this is a valid topic. Poor schools in the blighted areas of town - majority black. Rich schools in the affluent white areas - majority white. It is not racist to identify a reality, and discuss it.

Sep 19, 2017
It is not racist to identify a reality, and discuss it
Decades of democratic rule, billions of dollars, and nothings changed.

So what do you think the problem is? Why do you think more discussion is going to change anything?

Sep 19, 2017
So what do you think the problem is?
Do you have a couple of hours? In short - a very broken culture - that is controlled by wealthy people of privilege - who have no compassion for anyone but themselves, and no interest in even having a conversation about solutions. The legacy of colonialism and slavery is still very strong.
Why do you think more discussion is going to change anything?
Well - continuing to not discuss the problems is not going to solve them. I think there are solutions but they will require a pretty radical cultural shift. You have to start somewhere - right? Here would be an example of a place to start - http://www.resili...economy/ "Doughnut Economics" would be a good book to read - if you are really interested.

Sep 19, 2017
The major difficulty with this sort of thinking is that it completely ignores the fact that those controlling the progress of economic equalization are not "wealthy people of privilege" or "Colonialists" or "sympathizers of slavery:" the individuals controlling the normalization of economic opportunity are those who politically benefit from racism, and take every opportunity to claim "white racism" as the major causative factor when, in fact, it is a minor factor when critically compared with the culture of victimization which has been intensely cultivated by certain black and white political "leaders" since the 'sixties.

Sep 19, 2017
Vidyaguy - you will have to be more specific. From where I sit - the control seems to be in the hands of the wealthy. There are very few poor people in Congress. http://www.huffin...393.html Hillary Clinton was able to make millions of dollars in speakers fees. What words was she able to utter that deserved such amounts? She was pedaling power. As is Obama, as we speak. I totally disagree with your understanding of who wields the power - certainly in the U.S., and I suspect most other countries today. Please give some specifics of who you think is controlling the "progress of economic equalization."

Sep 20, 2017
The game looks fixed because IQ loads the dice.

Sep 20, 2017
Yes, lets blame racism on the wealthy! If you make more than $18,000 a year you are making more than 96% if the world's population so, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, your wealthy! But I still think we should blame it all on the smallest minority group our little, envious minds can think of so let's blame it all on the 4% WE call wealthy.
It certainly could not be caused by the majority of us who are undereducated and don't have the discipline to learn the necessary skills to make a good living.

Sep 20, 2017
Whenever there is a call to have an 'honest' discussion about race be prepared if you're 'white' to be lectured and any disagreements will instantly be branded as racist.... oh, and grab your wallet because that is the ultimate goal. Actually, that's been the case in the past but there are racists who are getting bolder about calling for the elimination of the 'white' race.

I am curious as to what the current definition of 'white' is. Is it based on genetics, culture or just appearance? What I'm getting at is that there are an ever increasing number of 'mixed' race people in this country. In fact I figure there are very, very few 'pure breeds' of any race except for recent immigrants. Also, there are a lot of half white/half black people who consider themselves as black. So is one's 'race' a personal choice?

Sep 20, 2017
Do you have a couple of hours? In short - a very broken culture - that is controlled by wealthy people of privilege - who have no compassion for anyone but themselves, and no interest in even having a conversation about solutions. The legacy of blah
IOW the same reasons as decades and billions of dollars ago. IOW despite the efforts of liberals who have had all the time and resources they needed to fix the problem, the problem is not fixed. The problem is worse, according to you and the liberals who did the study.

Perhaps 1) the problem is unfixable or 2) there is no problem.

OR 3) as long as there is the propensity to overpopulate in the world then suffering and disparity will always exist, and 4) unscrupulous politicians will always be willing to exploit it.

I think the last 2 problems are the ones that need fixing because they affect all of us. And I dont think that these foul politicians should be allowed to continue polarizing us for their own personal gain.

Sep 20, 2017
So - Otto - and all the other conservatives (based on your posts) above - are you saying that there is not a problem - when you have a society that is as racially/economically segregated as here in the U.S. And that it is the responsibility of 'liberals' to fix this problem, rather than all of our responsibility?

Sep 20, 2017
GO, if the same conservatives were on the other side of this particular scale the whining and howling would be epic. There is no greater crybaby coward than a US conservative.

Sep 20, 2017
racially/economically segregated as here in the U.S
What makes you think its segregated? What makes you think that any segregation that currently exists wasnt created by these asshole politicians? These are the monsters who compel people to burn their own neighborhoods and attack armed cops. What makes you think you can trust ANYTHING they tell you?

Tribalism is CAUSED by overpopulation. Gangs form when there is not enough to go around. And growth will always outpace supply unless it is controlled.

And even if it is controlled in the west we are still faced with floods of refugees from regions where its not.

Sep 20, 2017
There is no greater crybaby coward than a US conservative.

Case in point: Chalottsesville and the cry about "war on whites".

Sep 20, 2017
Ive never seen a crybaby bigger than this;
https://youtu.be/btm46UnGFic

Or a cowardly thug like this
https://youtu.be/-Nbh3ItqFyo

-antifa

Sep 20, 2017
Well, the comments wandered far afield but I think its the media. Media campaigns are loaded from the top down and flow over us like rain. All we really get is cold and wet. The benefits of the media campaign are merely show. Like Mr Bush said: "Only the appearances matter," and it seems to me the saturation of the media campaign is short term for us the recipients but the elites seem to think its long term with their money buying permanent change.

Sep 20, 2017
I think this article vastly overrates race, race is an issue, but it is values and lifestyles that matter far more. and are the source of much of the discrimination against blacks as well as many whites. To get the picture think about who you would hire for your business as a small business owner who deals with the public?

Sep 20, 2017
Otto
What makes you think its segregated?
Well statistics support that assertion - http://www.cnn.co...dex.html and it certainly jives with my experience. A google search will bring you up mountains of articles on the subject - http://www.smiths...0963494/ I would be happy to show you the classrooms I work in - that are majority black in the poor - run down neighborhoods here, and then the MUCH nicer schools - in the white affluent neighborhoods. Isn't that really the heart of today's article?

Sep 20, 2017
@greenos, they don't want to fix it, they want to pretend it's not there and anyone who disagrees is a "librul."

Just like they don't want to talk about taxes paid, only about money the government paid. https://www.nytim...ump.html

These people lie, and when their lies are challenged they whine about "librul bias." Sorry, #repulicants and #racists, the truth is not "librul." Get over it.

Sep 20, 2017
Is this science? Sounds like the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center, Hope Phys.Org isn't defined as a "Hate Group".

Sep 20, 2017
After all, #immigrants pay more taxes than #republicants, #libertardians, #racists, #nazis, #altright, #killercops, #rightwingnutshooters, and #physorgcranks combined.

Sep 20, 2017
Shall I add the taxes paid by people of color? You really, really won't like finding out those statistics. Apparently they get to pay more than you do to get shot by #killercops. That would be why they're demonstrating. And stuff.

Sep 20, 2017
Why is it democrat run cities are such cesspools of racism, inequality, blight, and decay?

Sep 20, 2017
You mean like New York and LA, @Shootie? Or how about Boston, Atlanta, and Portland OR?

Sep 20, 2017
I can see no difference in the cities, the politician's lives, or in the people's lives who live in those cities, based on politics. It is all just politics amplified by simple minded people from both parties.

Sep 21, 2017
Is this science?

It's in the social sciences section. Yes: Making studies on social issues is science.
(science from lat. scientia = knowledge. Studies create knowledge)

Sep 21, 2017
would be happy to show you the classrooms I work in - that are majority black in the poor - run down neighborhoods here, and then the MUCH nicer schools - in the white affluent neighborhoods
... and as always, anecdotal info is next to worthless. Unless youve been able to compare your experience with every other classroom in america, or even a representative sampling.

But even then it wouldnt be science.

Sep 21, 2017
Re education, as i said

"The final IES report on the School Improvement Grant program is devastating to Arne Duncan's and the Obama administration's education legacy. A major evaluation commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education and conducted by two highly respected research institutions delivered a crushing verdict: The program failed and failed badly.

"Despite its gargantuan price tag, SIG generated no academic gains for the students it was meant to help. Failing schools that received multi-year grants from the program to "turn around" ended up with results no better than similar schools that received zero dollars from the program. To be clear: Billions spent had no effect."

-In short, the money and the will and the time were all there, and it didnt work. What makes you think more of those things would? What makes you think 'nice' schools means better education?

Not only didnt it work, but things got worse.

Sep 21, 2017
Kids raised in a strongly tribal environment - their own music, their own language, their own styles - are going to want to reject influence from outside forces. Theyre going to want to destroy icons like schools and libraries and courtrooms and replace thrm with their own.

Theyre going to view outsiders and especially their law enforcers with derision and scorn. Theyre going to resist any attempts to restrict their efforts to exploit outsiders to benefit the tribe.

And those outsiders are going to react to this tribal behavior tribally.

Internal amity along with external emnity -tribal law- rules the streets, the suburbs, the countryside.

You want to increase the willingness to learn, youve got to increase a persons identification with the knowledge. The term boko haram means 'western education is a sin'. It is a standard tribal sentiment, the same as inner city students feel about the stuff you are trying to teach them.

Sep 21, 2017
and as always, anecdotal
I also presented data - which you ignore. The fact that the U.S is segregated on racial/economic lines in indisputable. There is mountains of research showing that poverty/race correlate. That cities our cities are segregated.

Sep 21, 2017
and as always, anecdotal
I also presented data - which you ignore. The fact that the U.S is segregated on racial/economic lines in indisputable. There is mountains of research showing that poverty/race correlate. That cities our cities are segregated.

I doubt any reasonably intelligent person would disagree with you, the question is why.
If I live in a vary cluttered house and you live in a very ordered house, If we are both happy with the way we live, at least enough not to do anything about it, which is right?

Plus it begs the question, how are other races that in the past were highly discriminated against doing?
The Irish were not even allowed to work, now one day a year we all pretend to be Irish.
The orientals were never allowed to do much but wash cloths and work as laborers building the railroad. Now major corporations court them. The list goes on for those races and nationalities whose members really want to gain ground in America.

Sep 21, 2017
And like i said segregation is tribal. It is speciation, the 'urge to diverge'. Tribalism is the human form of this mechanism. Immigrant waves have always caused inner city gangs to form. Pre-civil war they even became a political force in the north.
https://outofthis...-boston/

Poverty and race correlated then as well.

The things that solved that particular problem was a war, the reduction in catholic/protestant antagonism, and healthy comingling.

And integration did not happen in the inner cities but in the suburbs where the ambitious and pragmatic few fled. Hardcore tribalists remained where they were to kill each other off and die of old age, to be replaced by new tribes.

Those tenaments now housing blacks and hispanics used to be occupied by irish and italians.

When groups with strong tribal identity ask for money it is usually perceived as extortion. It isnt meant to benefit the givers but to weaken them.

Sep 21, 2017
Theres even a term for this

"Ethnic succession theory is a theory in sociology stating that ethnic and racial groups entering a new area may settle in older neighborhoods or urban areas until achieving economic parity with certain economic classes... As the newer group becomes economically successful, it moves to a better residential area. With continued immigration, a new ethnic group will settle in the older neighborhood in a similar starting situation. This pattern will continue, creating a succession of groups... Ethnic succession has taken place in most major United States cities[2], but is most well known in New York City, where this process has been observed since the 19th century."

-And of course they dont ALL move on. Only those with sufficient ambition and resolve and resourcefulness do. They also need to be able to leave their incipient cultures behind.

Sep 21, 2017
Starting with President Johnson's so called Great Society the US government has managed to destroy the black family unit. The single mother was raised to a deity and babies became a cash crop because of a liberal welfare system. Of course a one parent family has a greater chance of living in poverty than a two parent unit. Whole areas of black prosperity were destroyed like Harlem in New York and replaced with drugs and feral children. Education became something to be ridiculed lest you became some sort of Whitey.

Sep 21, 2017
BLM is just an extension of their broken culture. The adversarial relationship between law enforcement and the police and sometimes fire departments has be going on for years. When a neighborhood does everything it can to obstruct law enforcement crime becomes the new law of the land.

Sep 21, 2017
Equality??? You fools are absolutely hilarious. What you do not get is that life is inherently NOT fair, nor should it ever be. All you geniuses still do not understand that ethnic groups are just as affected by evolutionary principles as any life on earth, and PERHAPS ethnic groups that devised western civilization are supremely adapted to living in said culture. I swear to Shiva, you fools are so incredibly weak and pathetic that you would rather destroy your own civilization than admit that some classification or ethnic group of humans are inferior to another. AND THAT is called social programming you twits.

Sep 21, 2017
If you want to see the root cause read American Federation of Teachers Union Boss Randi Weingarten's speech at

https://www.aft.o...e-public

Break the most morally corrupt organization, special interest, in the nation and let's see what happens then.

Sep 21, 2017
There is a lot of money in the poverty business and the elimination of poverty would be a crushing blow to the government bureaucrats and universities that benefit from it.

Sep 21, 2017
BTW the Teachers Unions are Siamese twins with the Dems. They own NYS and others.

Sep 21, 2017
ethnic group of humans are inferior to another. AND THAT is called social programming you twits.


It's good to hear you proclaiming yourself intellectually inferior to the oriental race. :-)

Sep 21, 2017
some classification or ethnic group of humans are inferior to another. AND THAT is called social programming you twits.


Well I guess this is celebrating the 100th anniversary of the great Darwinist Eugenics Progressive Democrat Woodrow Wilson's Administration. Who instituted photo IDs so no one would make the mistake of hiring or promoting any Untermenschen based on the civil service exams and who also told Black leaders that segregation was good for them.

Sep 21, 2017
ethnic group of humans are inferior to another. AND THAT is called social programming you twits.


It's good to hear you proclaiming yourself intellectually inferior to the oriental race. :-)


Good, the superior orientals are now colonizing Africa. Let's just say they don't believe nor regard the stupidity of the west and their infantile notions of morals.

Sep 21, 2017
some classification or ethnic group of humans are inferior to another. AND THAT is called social programming you twits.


Well I guess this is celebrating the 100th anniversary of the great Darwinist Eugenics Progressive Democrat Woodrow Wilson's Administration. Who instituted photo IDs so no one would make the mistake of hiring or promoting any Untermenschen based on the civil service exams and who also told Black leaders that segregation was good for them.


All animals self segregate. This is how real diversity is achieved in nature, selection and segregation. I swear you people are so "educated" that you can't even see the forest for the trees. Your morals are nothing but relics of the same Abrahamic god you so rightfully revile. They do not reflect reality.

Sep 21, 2017

All animals self segregate. This is how real diversity is achieved in nature, selection and segregation.


Yeah, just as Woodrow would tell you about Social Darwinism.


Sep 21, 2017
MR166
Starting with President Johnson's so called Great Society the US government has managed to destroy the black family
So according to MR - the great economic inequality experienced by black people in the U.S. - had nothing to do with colonialism, slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, or racial prejudice. It is all the fault of the American Government - starting in the 1960's. Yet - today's article - is about the fact of that economic inequality, and how Americans, and especially affluent white Americans, are misinformed about that issue. To validate the premise - the comments section breaks into the usual 'blacks are genetically inferior' 'blacks have lower iq' 'it is the norm for animals to segregate', and of course MR's thesis about it being the fault of the U.S. government - since the 1960's. Over and over it is really disheartening for me to how poorly informed, and lacking in any kind of critical thinking, or empathy - so many commenters display.

Sep 21, 2017
I wonder how the study would compare to italians and irish in the 1800s. Those living in inner cities also had lower incomes while those who had better standards of living lived elsewhere.

Does the study make the distinction between blacks who had left the hoods and those who didnt?

You didnt acknowledge the theory I posted mr onions.
acking in any kind of critical thinking, or empathy - so many commenters display
You here to understand the problem or just make people feel bad about it?

You also didnt acknowledge the fact that apparently no matter how much money we throw at the problem, it doesnt get solved. You just use the same old arguments that didnt address the problem a couple of gens ago.

You too young to remember them?

Sep 21, 2017

All animals self segregate. This is how real diversity is achieved in nature, selection and segregation.


Yeah, just as Woodrow would tell you about Social Darwinism.


Your thinking is quite banal. Always trying to raise mankind above nature, to put him on a pedestal. Mankind IS nature and nature IS mankind. Mankind is not "above" nature as in some Semitic god created the world for man tripe. You cannot escape death, you cannot escape evil, nor can you escape the hierarchy that nature has created. There is NOTHING to escape to. Accept it, but don't accept it in hoping by doing so you will get rid of your nasty parts. By ignoring, or pretending that you are somehow more "moral" then others is just a game you are playing of one upmanship. You only denigrate nature and create more problems.

Sep 21, 2017
Otto
You too young to remember them?
Nope - and I fully agree that we have thrown billions of dollars around - and not solved the problem. What same old arguments did I use Otto? The solutions that I suggested would be perhaps a starting point in addressing the problem - were to read a book called Doughnut Economics. I am not saying that it is the solution - but perhaps a starting point. I also linked to an article on social economics - that does seem to be having a measurable impact. As far as making people feel bad - I am discouraged at reading the racist drivel that people like MR et al put out. You know - blacks are genetically inferior, and lower iq, and their own worst enemy etc. Yes - I take a minute to express my discouragement. Remember - "when they came for me - there was no one left to speak"...

Sep 21, 2017
Love how Greenonions is SO socially programmed that he is incapable of seeing the reality that nature creates hierarchies. AND EVEN if he COULD accept it, man would be immune to it. So he creates social constructs like "racism" and "equality" so that he can pontificate about how much "evolved" of a human being he is. However, in doing so he is proclaiming himself SUPERIOR due to his attainment of "higher" morality. What a web he has woven himself, always trying straighten out nature, to smooth it out and make it flat and even. As if you explain, from Latin explanare "to explain, make clear, make plain," literally "make level, flatten.

Sep 22, 2017
If you want to solve racial inequality, you have to start with education. And the problem is, most US citizens think most education is pretty much like what they got. And it's not; it varies a lot depending on the economic and racial characteristics of where it's given and who gives and gets it. The richer the area, and the whiter the recipient, the better the education. Until this changes we will face ongoing problems in this area.

How do we solve this? As we can see, it's difficult, and just throwing money at it isn't enough; but the money comes first. Merely whining about the fact you threw money at it and it didn't work doesn't mean you should stop the money; it means you've left other things out. But this will not come down from on high where the money comes from; it takes grassroots effort as well.
[contd]

Sep 22, 2017
[contd]
A real change in attitude on the parts of both teachers and students will be required; but while this is changing, the money can't stop, because if it does these attitude changes will be mostly useless.

It's kinda hard to take a kid from the projects and convince them that paying attention to linear algebra or classical literature will make a significant difference in their quality of life. But it's even harder if your classroom is falling apart and you can't give them a pencil and paper.

The tax-avoiding libertardians tend to overlook this, and lawyer to get their taxes reduced, then make excuses to avoid taking responsibility for the mess they've created. Common excuses include pretending people whose skin color isn't white are somehow stupid.

Sep 22, 2017
Why is it democrat run cities are such cesspools of racism, inequality, blight, and decay?

BTW the Teachers Unions are Siamese twins with the Dems. They own NYS and others.


Anybody that would bring up a political party's name in a scientific article comments section only prove which political party brainwashed them better.

Sep 22, 2017
@rderkis, yes, I agree, @Shootie is obviously part of the problem.

Sep 22, 2017
Steve
So he creates social constructs like "racism"
Wow - I created the construct racism? I am so powerful? Surely the whole point of this article - is to critique the problem of an economic system that privileges one group over another - based on something like skin color - that does not in reality make one group superior. So sure Steve - 'hierarchies' may be 'natural' - so the lions eat the zebras, or the chimps have a dominant male. But we are moral beings - and should think about our systems. You seem to be arguing against humans, agreeing that slavery, the holocaust, racism (not my invention) Vlad the impaler etc. etc. are 'wrong' - and that we rightly choose to make such things illegal.

Sep 22, 2017
What same old arguments did I use Otto?
uh these
•very broken culture
•controlled by wealthy people of privilege
•no compassion for anyone but themselves
•no interest in even having a conversation about solutions
•legacy of colonialism and slavery is still very strong
•continuing to not discuss the problems
•require a pretty radical cultural shift
•solutions that I suggested would be perhaps a starting point in addressing the problem
-They are all from the 60s. They were the reason money was freed and given to the people who said they understood the problems and guaranteed they could fix them.

They didnt and i told you why.

I left my culture to go to college. I used to return to visit and realized that those who stayed were some of the dumbest people I ever met. Nowhere jobs or unemployed, kids they couldnt support, drugs and alcohol, preyed upon by organized crime. And they had fairly good schools.

Those who could, left.

Sep 22, 2017
Of course thats anecdotal but an appropriate response to your anecdotal. Youre teaching at the messy end of the sieve.

Youre wealthy people of priviledge who dont care? That is the perspective of one tribe to another. Those are the people who were able to leave their incipient cultures and make a good life for themselves. All different colors and ethnicity. Lots of blacks who speak english and mow their lawns. Their kids play soccer.

They belong to a different tribe now, one with benefits. No gang colors, guns kept in locked drawers and safes, not in waistbands.

Sep 22, 2017
Interesting Otto. I argue that it is my observation that the culture I live in is very broken, and thus I endorse a radical cultural shift. You accuse me of using "same old arguments". You now make exactly the same argument. That you left said culture - and when you returned - you found them them "some of the dumbest people I ever met." Seems to me we are in agreement that the culture would benefit from a rethink - but you attack me for saying such a thing - at the same time as saying it yourself. I do agree that solutions like the war on poverty - have not been effective. This is why I advocate reading things like Doughnut Economics - that is advocating a re-think - and certainly not a "same old argument." Odd - that you seem to be acknowledging that the culture is broken - but seem not interested in possibilities of change.

Sep 22, 2017
You cant change a culture you have to leave it or destroy it. This is happening right now as refugees from mexico, the middle east, and elsewhere are fleeing their obsolete cultures to come here. They may sustain them in immigrant neighborhoods for a time, but again, those few who can leave, will.

Sep 22, 2017
the culture I live in is very broken, and thus I endorse a radical cultural shift. .


We will get a radical shift soon. Soon we will know how to use genetic engineering to choose which race or mixture of races we want to be and change that decision any time we want. Racism will not exist then.

Sep 22, 2017
I argue that it is my observation that the culture I live in is very broken
-and i submit that its not brokern but in fact very healthy. Its functioned as it always has - gang violence, graft and corruption, ignorance and poverty. Same as inner cities in the 1800s. Same as those in london and birmigham a century earlier.
and thus I endorse a radical cultural shift
Ever see the movvie Kicks?
https://youtu.be/rci4qxqcooA

-You want to change that culture. Ever try to get kids to speak proper english, not just to you but to each other? Ever try to get them to listen to different music, wear different clothes, respect police officers, etc? You cant. Thats tribalism. Its their neighborhood, their culture, their TRIBE, and they will not let you change it.

When you say radical change you mean destruction, as in holodomor or the holocaust. Raze and rebuild. Ethnic cleansing. Thats what YOU'RE talking about.

The way german and tzarist cultures were 'changed'.

Sep 22, 2017
The way Sherman 'changed' the obsolete southern slave culture in his march to the sea.

What makes you think it can be changed any other way? Perhaps you have some examples?

Sep 22, 2017
Steve
But we are moral beings - and should think about our systems..


You do realize that all morals are social constructs. What makes you think you are doing anyone any favors by trying to "normalize" or "equalize" economies? You don't get it, you are as a man whom is trying to drink up the ocean with a fork. You are like Monsanto whom tries to kill all the weeds in the field. Your actions likewise will only drive more resistance just as the weeds build up resistance to Glyphosate, yet in your ignorance you insist that the weeds must die and decide to devise more powerful weapons, genetic weapons against the weeds. So by all means, try to kill all the "weeds" of humanity ( racism, holocaust "burn't offerings", Vlad Tepish etc.) But you don't even know what equality means. It means balance, and that means yin and yang, 50/50. It means that racists"tribalism" is just as necessary as non racists"non-tribalism".

Sep 22, 2017
The way Sherman 'changed' the obsolete southern slave culture in his march to the sea.

What makes you think it can be changed any other way? Perhaps you have some examples?


It can never be changed. Greenonions thinks the world is broken, I would argue that it is perfect. And any attempt at "change", or as it were to force the river to change course is delusion. Conflict is absolutely necessary, our own bodies are a dynamic miracle of conflict and
cooperation. As for slave cultures? The north merely replaced chattel slavery for a more advanced form of debt slavery in the form of fiat economies. In other words, now, nearly everyone is a slave.

Sep 22, 2017
In some ways, Greenonions may be correct, does might make right? I would say yes, but there will inevitably come about someone or group whose might is greater and the eternal circle will continue. You can learn alot from watching Lion prides, and see how they mirror human civilizations on a more digestible time scale. I can see the fall of the left and "equality" even now. It's as obvious as knowing the trough of a wave follows a crest and vice versa.

Sep 22, 2017
You cant change a culture you have to leave it or destroy it. This is happening right now as refugees from mexico, the middle east, and elsewhere are fleeing their obsolete cultures to come here. They may sustain them in immigrant neighborhoods for a time, but again, those few who can leave, will.


Why would they leave their culture? Why would they just not subsume ours and destroy this culture? American culture is nothing but consumerism on an epic scale, there is nothing particularly fulfilling about it. By making a culture inclusive to all you are actually creating no culture at all. If anything this is an attempt by the global elites to destroy all major national identities in order to attempt to create a global culture or tax farm. This of course will never work, just as the human body cannot function with only heart cells.

Sep 22, 2017
the culture I live in is very broken, and thus I endorse a radical cultural shift. .


We will get a radical shift soon. Soon we will know how to use genetic engineering to choose which race or mixture of races we want to be and change that decision any time we want. Racism will not exist then.


poppycock. Change of a radical nature as such at will, would destabilize the organism and lead to death, cancers, organ failure etc. Stability is just as necessary as change. We are not talking about underwear here. Besides, racism isn't even REAL. The term itself was first used in 1901 I believe? What you are talking about is the POLITICIZATION of the preference of ethnic differences for the purpose of destroying said differences in an attempt to better control large population groups. It can't be done and it is not even desirable as such attempts infringe on freedom of association.

Sep 22, 2017
Steve - yes I am aware that morals are a social construct. You are correct - I don't see the wold as perfect. Racism, segregation, poverty etc. are things that I see as flaws in our culture - and things I will work to overcome
Otto - I don't see the society as healthy - I see it as pathologically broken. Gun violence, crime, environmental destruction etc. etc. are all examples to me of that sickness. Yes - there are plenty of examples throughout history - of movements that have brought about great cultural change. Abolitionists, Ghandi's non violent resistance to British occupation, etc. etc. etc. It is surreal to me that I live in a world - where on a science site - people actually argue that things as evil as genocide are not morally abhorrent (you are doing that by calling our current culture perfect - or healthy). My views are clear. I will leave it at that.

Sep 22, 2017
Steve - yes I am aware that morals are a social construct. You are correct - I don't see the wold as perfect. Racism, segregation, poverty etc. are things that I see as flaws in our culture - and things I will work to overcome
.


Why do you wish to overcome them? How can you overcome perfection>? If you do not agree the world is perfect, how would you, an imperfect being bring perfection into manifestation?

Sep 22, 2017
It would help if the Republicants weren't trying to screw up everybody's healthcare because they all want to make sure to undo anything the First Black President did because they're bigots. Not to mention chickensxxt bigots.

Sep 22, 2017
It would help if the Republicants weren't trying to screw up everybody's healthcare because they all want to make sure to undo anything the First Black President did because they're bigots.


Shut up, That's right shut your mouth. What are you going to do? Cry? Whine? No one owes anyone ANYTHING! Especially through force! Are you going to coerce me by "law" to pay for your grandmother's Chemo? If so, I say, F-U! Your thinking has guaranteed war, for you are an absolutionist. You WILL, by force understand what it means to be free. Are you willing to die for your treachery? We'll find out!

Sep 22, 2017
I note, @Stevemidge, that you don't have any answer to the charge of bigotry. You just think everyone should take it up the azz because you wanna be a chickensxxt bigot and you hate.

Pay your taxes. Or leave my country, and go pay more elsewhere.

Sep 22, 2017
I note, @Stevemidge, that you don't have any answer to the charge of bigotry. You just think everyone should take it up the azz because you wanna be a chickensxxt bigot and you hate.

Pay your taxes. Or leave my country.


Shut your mouth. you speak of crap, "bigotry"?? LOL Who gives a crap? You are nothing but a feckless coward. Go ahead, prove me right, you are nothing but a pathetic worthless coward. What are you going to do? Castigate me more? call me more names? You are nothing, and if you act in aggression.. a hypocrite!

Sep 22, 2017
I would call repealing healthcare laws that protect everyone because they were signed by the First Black President bigotry without a second's hesitation. I don't think there's an objective observer who has any doubt why you're doing it. I don't need to prove anything. The evidence is your actions.

And all you've got to argue against it is abuse. Transparent as a 3 year old child.

Sep 22, 2017
Pay your taxes you say. For what you moron? more war? more false flag operations like 9/11? More expansionist policies for Israel? To bleed my self dry for equality? Go #%$# yourself.

Sep 22, 2017
I would call repealing healthcare laws that protect everyone because they were signed by the First Black President bigotry without a second's hesitation. I don't think there's an objective observer who has any doubt why you're doing it. I don't need to prove anything. The evidence is your actions.

And all you've got to argue against it is abuse. Transparent as a 3 year old child.


You are pathetic. I don't give 2 Sh&^ about what "president" signed that piece of sh*& bill into existence. I don't give 2 SH&^% about Donald Trump or any other Globalist moron. I choose freedom, and you are my enemy. you brought this upon yourself with your dictatorial pursuits. I reject you and your force. F&^% your fiat slave system!! I despise your "equality".

Sep 22, 2017
So basically you're against doing anything, but you still need excuses about how black kids are stupid to justify not doing anything.

Noted. Just wanted that on the record.

Sep 22, 2017
Why do you wish to overcome them? How can you overcome perfection>? If you do not agree the world is perfect, how would you, an imperfect being bring perfection into manifestation?
I said I would call it quits - but you have asked a direct question - and I will give an answer. I wish to see evils such as racism overcome - because I would like to live in a better world. I think that is possible - and we will have to wait and see if humanity ever accomplishes that better world. We seem to be making progress - most having left slavery behind. Less wars than in the past. Developing cures for cancer, and other diseases. Making great strides with our technology. I would not use the word perfection - but I believe we can some day achieve a world in which everyone has a rich full life - without the scourges of war, crime, racism, sexism, etc. etc. You seem to be saying that you believe the world is perfect. Your last few curse laden tirades seem at odds with that.

Sep 22, 2017
All I really wanted was to find out if they're actually racist or if they have some other rational explanation for it.

They don't have any other rational explanation; and they know it's wrong. That's why all the evil stuff comes out of their mouths when they're challenged. They're embarrassed.

Sep 22, 2017
I would say midge is either a troll or a narc. A little nazi hunting for the bureau eh?
I see it as pathologically broken. Gun violence, crime, environmental destruction etc. etc. are all examples to me of that sickness
Inner cities are unnaturally sick environments. What you describe is the healthy response to it.
Yes - there are plenty of examples throughout history - of movements that have brought about great cultural change. Abolitionists, Ghandi's non violent resistance to British occupation
No, I said changing a culture wiyhout destroying it. Ghandi restored his culture to power. The civil war ended slavery, not abolitionists. And the culture was destroyed, utterly.

Sep 22, 2017
as evil as genocide are not morally abhorrent (you are doing that by calling our current culture perfect - or healthy
Back in the 60s, liberal reform led to urban renewal. Whole neighborhoods across the US were razed and replaced by the projects, tower islands in the midst of sprawling green space, a concept conceived by a socialist architect named le corbusier.

The towers quickly became vertical tenaments, worse actually, and the green space became wasteland.

In hindsight we can see that this was the attempt to destroy culture akin to sherman. Culture won out and destroyed the projects.

One could equate the massive influx of drugs as a genocide of sorts. Britain fought 2 wars to maintain the flow of opium into china for the same purpose; to destroy an obsolete culture. Didnt work. It took horrible wars and revolutions, and the death of millions upon millions, and a few gens of communist martial law, and enforced birth limits - to finally do the trick.

Sep 22, 2017
So what do you really think you mean by drastic change? You dont appreciate the power of speciation, of the tribe.
most having left slavery behind
Yes, i understand this still exists in US inner cities, in ethnic enclaves running sweat shops and brothels, and supplied by gangs running them across the border in shipping containers.

Is that the slavery youre talking about?

Sep 22, 2017
BTW re your gandhi comment, when the brits left and govt control was returned to the hindu majority, things got messy

"The violent legacy of Indian Partition. Partition displaced fifteen million people and killed more than a million. In August, 1947, when, after three hundred years in India, the British finally left, the subcontinent was partitioned into two independent nation states: Hindu-majority India and Muslim-majority Pakistan."

-His nonviolence resulted in considerable violence. Which was perhaps the plan.

Sep 22, 2017
Inner cities are unnaturally sick environments.
So you make the point right? The culture we live in - that fosters such sick environments - is sick. A healthy culture would recognize the cancer of such blight - and try to do better. We don't have a very healthy culture.
The civil war ended slavery, not abolitionists.
Abolition was a much larger movement than just here in the U.S. Perhaps the civil war was a major factor - but you can discount the global movement if you want. https://en.wikipe...itionism So what? The fact is that we have left that culture behind - and are perhaps moving forward. Why should we clash over such issues? They either are or they are not. Let me fight for what I think is important. And if you don't think it is important - leave me alone. Surely you can at least agree that ending slavery was a good thing? And evolving to a society that is post racial - would in my opinion be good.

Sep 22, 2017
All I really wanted was to find out if they're actually racist or if they have some other rational explanation for it.

They don't have any other rational explanation; and they know it's wrong. That's why all the evil stuff comes out of their mouths when they're challenged. They're embarrassed.


Wrong? You are such a moron. Why is it wrong for peoples to prefer their own?

Sep 22, 2017
Every single one of you have no stomach for truth. You are all vehicles of the propaganda that drives you. From "racism" to "equality" you are but children entranced by the tune of the pied piper. I am literally disgusted that humanity has devolved into such weakness. You are ALL incapable of accepting nature as it is, and thus you have consigned yourselves to your destinies. I have tried, unsuccessfully to inform you of truth, despite it's uncomfortable nature. Sometimes the truth is painful and people recoil from pain, so it is to be expected. Greenonions, your ideology is a dead end, it offers nothing but death and war. you think you are superior to those whom seek segregation and freedom you believe you wield superior morals. Your world will be upended and you will know not why.

Sep 22, 2017
So basically you're against doing anything, but you still need excuses about how black kids are stupid to justify not doing anything.

Noted. Just wanted that on the record.


You are not interested in truth, only platitudes. You literally are incapable of handling the truth as everything you propound is excuses. You literally are too emotionally invested in the subject to come to an objective conclusion. Just go live in the ghetto, don't make excuses, do it. I'm sue all you come will come back with is victimization.

Sep 23, 2017
My father fought in a war against racist, stupid, fascist filth just like you. And we won. And today in their country racism and fascism are illegal. If you push hard enough maybe you can get them made illegal here too.

Hate speech is not free speech. It's an attempt to suppress free speech, not to mention other freedoms, and it always has been. What you are trying to do has been tried before and has always failed, usually with bloody consequences. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

The stupid. It burns.

Sep 23, 2017


Hate speech is not free speech. It's an attempt to suppress free speech, not to mention other freedoms, and it always has been. What you are trying to do has been tried before and has always failed, usually with bloody consequences. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

The stupid. It burns.


Do you always use double speak? Hate speech is the epitome of free speech you feckless castrated yuppie liberal commie anal gland.

Sep 23, 2017
uummm, midge ,

''You are ALL incapable of accepting nature as it is ,'''

thats why we don't still live in caves and hunt and gather ,

And Schnieb , you should be above mindless marxist sloganeering .

Sep 23, 2017
uummm, midge ,

''You are ALL incapable of accepting nature as it is ,'''

thats why we don't still live in caves and hunt and gather ,

And Schnieb , you should be above mindless marxist sloganeering .


What does living in caves have to do with the fundamental nature of mankind? All life feeds on life just as represented by the Ouroboros. Hate is as fundamental to existence as love, they go with one another and neither can be eliminated. This is what I mean accepting nature as it is. To be at war with hate is to be at war with oneself. If you can accept that it is a necessary function of existence then all the manipulations of politicians are laid bare. If not, then you will be as they say, "the tail wagging the dog".

Sep 23, 2017
My father fought in a war against racist, stupid, fascist filth just like you. And we won
Well either youre talking about the pacific war, or youre russian. 90% of the germans who died in ww2 were killed by russians. Germans killed russians 4 to 1 but were outnumbered 5 to 1.

We had little to do with the outcome of the euro war. So 'we' from the US perspective didnt win anything, except that we prevented the soviets from overrunning all of europe which was their intent.

Also, hitler got much of his philosophy from the american eugenicist margaret sanger. From her perspective, 'we' meant something a little different I would guess. A bust of her still stands in the smithsonian.
http://www.wnd.co...statues/

-Just to be clear.

Sep 23, 2017
The culture we live in - that fosters such sick environments - is sick
What mean 'we' kimosabe? THAT is the culture which always arises from tropical animals living in a closed environment. And I am referring to any human group reproducing at the normal rate in any inner city environment.

Cities arent natural, another artifact of human development. Humans found that they had to live in protected enclosures to defend themselves from roving bands of marauders expelled from their own cities. These cultures become seething cauldrons of intergroup conflict. You keep feeding resources into them and the problem only gets worse.

Consider that african tribes were also miserable places of oppression and endemic violence. Try to picture shipping containers full of people desperate to leave this misery for the promise of free room and board, in place of those slave ship floor plans youre so familiar with.

No difference.

Perhaps history isnt quite what you thought it was.


Sep 23, 2017
The ghetto will always be there. In europe theyre currently filled with muslims. Heres one in brazil - Favela
https://brazilian...9/20/42/
Let me fight for what I think is important
Bang your head against the wailing wall as much as you want. Otto is only trying to tell you it is actually a part of a roman fortress and not your beloved temple which the nasty world so cruelly stole from you.

Maybe if you can accept that you can find your way to a "one-state solution". By giving up your mythology which is itself the problem, not the solution.

BTW you know how ancient hebrews supposedly solved the problem of overcrowding in jerusalem? They used to sacrifice their unwanted children to moloch, the god of canaanites, by tossing them into a ravine outside the city called Gehenna. Might be total fiction, I dont know

But ask any inner city serial aborter or impregnator [what was hillarys term for this? Cant find it] if they can understand the concept.

Sep 23, 2017
smidge , u may enjoy these , [ seriously : }

https://www.youtu...onVideos

Sep 23, 2017
You seem to be saying that you believe the world is perfect. Your last few curse laden tirades seem at odds with that.


I don't think you know what perfection is. Or at least your conception of perfection is flawed. I'm saying anger, racism, war, peace, love, life and death are merely aspects of the totality of existence, by holding up one aspect, say, peace and claim this is desirable yet war is not, then you do not understand perfection. By having such limited views of the nature of existence, you have chosen to play a particular type of game. The game of I know what is best for thee and in doing so you have inadvertently ( or purposefully) created the circumstances for that which you believe undesirable. Perhaps if you wish to remove the issue of race, you should, as a jew, remove your own identity first. I take that is a bridge to far for you however.

Sep 23, 2017
smidge , u may enjoy these , [ seriously : }

https://www.youtu...onVideos


I think it is a good video overall, Mr. Peterson does well in explaining some of the issues confronting society today. However, I don't think even he or I for that matter completely grasps in a manner that can be explained to completeness the importance of what we call "evil". Pain and suffering is absolutely necessary in order to manifest what we call pleasure and peace and ultimately existence. It is like this, a wave must always have a crest and a trough, the two distinctions in function are absolutely necessary for the manifestation of what we call a wave. For a wave cannot only be comprised of only troughs or crests. Once you understand this, you can see the farce that is the supposed war of good and evil. You might as well be saying that you side with crests or troughs, which is meaningless. Thanks for the video.

Sep 23, 2017
Otto
What mean 'we' kimosabe?
Using the word culture very loosely - I kind of mean N. American/European culture. Really any culture that is embracing neo liberal social/economic theory. You could probably just say the global culture - although that is obviously flawed, and very limited in terms of understanding 'culture.' But the bigger point to both you and Steve is this. Sounds like you would say that any social movement - such as suffrajettes/abolition/blm/anti war movement etc. etc. is folly. That is our fundamental disagreement. I am comfortable with the idea of seeing wrong - and working for change. Yes - 'wrong' is subjective. I do believe in a social evolution. The end point is an end to evils such as racism, war, violence etc. I will leave you to your philosophical gymnastics - and plod on with what makes me tick. We are doing better today - but there is a long way to go. I am not a hisorian Otto - but do take an interest in history.

Sep 23, 2017
Lets move that wave a little higher overall ,,

Sep 23, 2017
Sounds like you would say that any social movement - such as suffrajettes/abolition/blm/anti war movement etc. etc. is folly
Not folly - contrived. Youre missing the whole point.
That is our fundamental disagreement. I am comfortable with the idea of seeing wrong - and working for change
Everty gen falls for different versions of the same thing. If you were truly interested in change you would acknowledge the historical examples i gave you. Catholic immigrants for instance had a much harder time of it than blacks. But its the same process and it will proceed no matter what you do.

Throwing money at it will only buy you more monica conyers and kwame kilpatricks.

Sep 23, 2017
The US has some of the least restrictive laws on free speech in the world. This has been due to the overwhelming impact of the free speech clause in the First Amendment to the US Constitution, which has been interpreted liberally by the Supreme Court.

I really do hope it stays that way, but if the price is suppression of real freedoms for minorities by Nazis, I suspect that it's going to change. Freedom is not for free, and the flipside of freedom is responsibility. If the irresponsible abuse it, then we may all suffer for this irresponsible use of this freedom. Certainly free speech by Nazis is not condoned in Europe or the former Commonwealth to this extent.

Whether this is right or wrong is not my concern; my concern is that it is being abused by the immature, and that's likely to result in it being taken away. That would be a shame, but it's where abuse of freedoms inevitably leads.

Sep 23, 2017
If you were truly interested in change you would acknowledge the historical examples i gave you
And I would point out that there are other examples that support the understanding that social movements can bring about change. What about the historical examples I gave you? For example - suffragettes. We no longer have laws banning inter-racial marriage. This is progress. There was no war. But why do we have to keep needing to prove we are right? Why not just let me follow my convictions, and you follow yours? Am I hurting you, if I start a small business, and connect with others who are interested in social/economic justice - and try to be a part of bringing into being an alternative economy - that presents an alternative to the neo-liberal mess we have now?

Sep 24, 2017
Throwing money at it will only buy you more monica conyers and kwame kilpatricks.
I have not advocated throwing money at anything. I advocate a dialogue - and people taking personal actions based on their own convictions. I have acknowledged that the U.S. government has thrown billions at the problem of poverty - to no effect.

Sep 24, 2017
@greenos, I don't have much sympathy for the whole "neo-liberal" thing. It looks to me like another piece of disinformation. I suggest you take a much closer look at it before you espouse it again. I consider it as an indication of thought pollution as objectionable as fascism.

Sep 24, 2017
@greenos the agenda here is to cut the money off because "it hasn't done anything." The reasons "throwing money at it" didn't help are ignored, while what is never said when the money is going away is that money was necessary, but not sufficient. Without it none of the other necessary changes can happen. Properly funding schools is being attacked because it didn't fix the problem by itself. The truth is it never could, but it was required before anything else could help.

Sep 24, 2017
Da Schneib - are you thinking that I am promoting neo-liberalism? My position is that neo-liberalism is a serious problem. The economic debate - that is part of today's article - is often couched in terms of 'the solution to economic disparities - is in allowing the free market to do its magic - and if the power of free markets is unleashed - these problems will be resolved.' I disagree with this libertarian type view - and think it is time for a much more complex discussion. I agree with your position - that we must look at the whole situation - and look for more complex solutions. You surely have to agree that to this point - the war on poverty has not been effective. Yes - education is key - but not the whole picture.

Sep 24, 2017
I advocate a dialogue - and people taking personal actions based on their own convictions
So did conyers and kilpatrick. The people they love that shit you know.

Sep 24, 2017
Here are two interesting links:
This one show the amount of money spent on the war on poverty, it is anywhere between 13 and 22 trillion depending on the source.
https://www.nytim...ram-buck

This one show the results in a graft, great for the elderly, a failure for the children. The percentage has risen about 50% in the last 50 years.
http://www.pewres...ortrait/

Sep 24, 2017
Otto
So did conyers and kilpatrick. The people they love that shit you know.
Why do you keep bringing up Conyers and Kilpatrick? I am just not getting the point you are trying to make.

Sep 24, 2017
The point is that the route you are describing is identical to the one tha t produced that sort of corruption. Or that couldnt avoid that sort of corruption. Little italys produced the mafia.

The mob is tribalism. You think you can reform the mob? The mob IS the inner city. MS13 was born is the inner cities of Guatemala.

The greatest immorality in this world is ignoring the inevitable, or letting it happen by itself.

Sep 24, 2017
You want drastic change? You might want to try gentrification. Indigene tribalists hate that so much because they want to be free to prey on the gentrified. Being replaced by them is insulting.

Or instead of the projects you might want to try installing public works like NJIT or johns hopkins in ghettos. Institutions meant to serve the people they displace.

Who could argue with that?

Sep 24, 2017
You are using the right phrase here Otto," public works", all men and women not working a full time job and collecting some form of assistance from taxpayers, even ones with minor dependents of any age should be required to perform some form of community service. While this may require more cost at the start it would soon save taxpayers money. Half the women and men collecting assistance could be used watching the other's minor children. It would be a win, win situation, the children would be better off, and the workers at these centers would also feel better about themselves.


Sep 24, 2017
Otto -
The point is that the route you are describing is identical to the one tha t produced that sort of corruption
Still not getting you. What route am I describing - and how did the route I am describing - produce corruption? It seems to me that corruption is a very prevalent problem - in most if not all societies. I also fail to see why you keep mentioning Conyers and Kilpatrick. If your point is that path A - leads to corruption. Why not say it that way? Why specifically mention two individuals. As I say - corruption is endemic. Or was there something specific about Conyers and Kilpatrick that causes you to mention them specifically? And again - what route do you think I am proposing - that you say leads to corruption?

Sep 24, 2017
Still not getting you. What route
Shall we start over?
Do you have a couple of hours? In short - a very broken culture - that is controlled by wealthy people of privilege - who have no compassion for anyone but themselves, and no interest in even having a conversation about solutions. The legacy of blah
-to which I responded
IOW the same reasons as decades and billions of dollars ago. IOW despite the efforts of liberals who have had all the time and resources they needed to fix the problem, the problem is not fixed. The problem is worse, according to you and the liberals who did the study
-a few feet thataway ^
path A - leads to corruption. Why not say it that way?
I thought I did.
Cities arent natural, another artifact of human development. Humans found that they had to live in protected enclosures to defend themselves from roving bands of marauders expelled from their own cities. These cultures become seething cauldrons
-of corruption. No?

Sep 24, 2017
Da Schneib - are you thinking that I am promoting neo-liberalism?
As in you wanna be one? No. But promoting its existence? Yes, I think that's what you're doing:
My position is that neo-liberalism is a serious problem.
And this confirms it:
The economic debate... is in allowing the free market to do its magic...
That's not any kind of liberalism at all. It's pure libertarianism. We don't need extra terminology for it, especially not any terminology that has "liberal" in it. Libertarianism is pretty much Malthusian "every man for himself" with no safety net.

You surely have to agree that to this point - the war on poverty has not been effective.
Depends on your statistics, I guess. It looks to me like the economic crash in 2007 made a real mess, increasing poverty by several points, and we were fighting it down over the decade since with some real progress, but this year it's going to be bad again and likely to stay that way for a few years.

Sep 24, 2017
Im trying to be patient here, but if youre not going to read what I write, and THINK about it, then whats the point?

But thats really the problem isnt it? Well-meaning people like yourself think that aping [thats NOT derisive] tired feel-good slogans from the past, and trying to secure a few billion AGAIN by the efforts of political scum like conyers and kilpatricks who guarantee you it will buy you everything you wanted and solve all your problems, is how to exact drastic change.

Because you all think that feel-good sloganeering is the end in itself. 'I have a dream!' yes?

Dream all you want or wake up and THINK. You HAVE to know history to understand the issue. History says some things are unfixable. And priests and politicians who tell you they are, are only looking to fill their pockets by emptying ours.

Youre a southern baptist arent you? Tell me if im wrong.

Sep 24, 2017
So, @Otto, your position is that everyone who's trying to do anything about racial and economic inequality problems is either corrupt or a dupe, do I have that right?

Sep 24, 2017
everyone who's trying to do anything about racial and economic inequality problems is either corrupt or a dupe,


Except private charities and think tanks. It doesn't take much of a scratch to see the liberal tyranny of the Government bureaucracy puts the political agenda of the Swamp ahead of social needs.

Sep 24, 2017
So, @Otto, your position is that everyone who's trying to do anything about racial and economic inequality problems is either corrupt or a dupe, do I have that right?
No. Whered you get that from?

Sep 24, 2017
So, @Turbid, politicians shouldn't do anything about racial and economic inequality problems?

Tell me, why do you think that? And what's this "liberal tyranny" if the majority are Republicans? Do you always make stuff up like this?

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, that's what you said. If it's not what you meant maybe you should clarify, because that's sure what it looked like you were saying to me.

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, that's what you said. If it's not what you meant maybe you should clarify, because that's sure what it looked like you were saying to me
I absolutely did not. Youre a liar.

Oh and where was it that i was talking to you?

Sep 24, 2017
I'm not even gonna bother with that. You obviously have no argument since you descend immediately to outright transparent denial and ad hominem attacks. I win. People who do what you do do it because they don't have arguments. It's really that simple.

I'll argue with you, @Otto, but schoolyard games don't interest me.

Sep 24, 2017
I'm not even gonna bother with that
Of course not.

So show me where I said what you claim I said, TO YOU, and I'll apologize.

Or else its clear you lied about it, an objective analysis.

Fair enough?

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, you have made statements that are most obviously interpreted as I have interpreted them. When challenged you have refused to say why they are not to be interpreted that way; you have no answer. Does this not seem transparent to you?

What's your reasoning for saying what you say? In the absence of any explanation from you, my explanation stands.

What you are experiencing now is called "cognitive dissonance." It's when you realize you said something stupid.

And you did it again, too, three times now: "Of course not" doesn't explain your thinking for why what I said is wrong. All you have is schoolyard games. Denial just like the 3 year old with the cookie crumbs on his shirt, standing in front of the broken cookie jar.

Pitiful.

Sep 24, 2017
@Der Snob,

Please think a little deeper and see if you can follow this argument.

"So, @Turbid, politicians shouldn't do anything about racial and economic inequality problems?"

By proper definition Yes.

Modern Pol - Professional Political with whose principal objective is to remain in office until dead. Present serious manifestation of this is current bipartisanship, thus forcing conformance to ideology.

Past Pol/Statesman - Individual acting on behalf of electorate based campaign position. Past Pol typically did not build a nest due to lack of longevity. Decisions based on greatest interest of the people prevailed. This did not exclude political compromise.

Federal gov. functions should be narrowly limited to constitution, and for you special emphasis on constitutional enforcement. Federal bureaucracy should not devolve into defining school lunches or sending Obama letters (threats) to colleges on establishing extra judicial systems for sexual assault.

Sep 24, 2017
@Turgent, so you prefer to vote for politicians who don't do anything about problems.

Noted. Not very bright, but noted.

Tell me, what do you think you pay taxes for, when they go to salaries of people you expect not to do anything about problems?

I mean, just askin'.

Sep 24, 2017
Cont.

This is unconstitutional counterproductive horse crap in the name social welfare.

Example in point. Obama could have been one of the greatest presidents had he worked to close the racial divide. His opportunity was beyond all predecessors. Instead Obama reinforced racial divide for party politics. Do you need examples?

Since the Great Society program social welfare has had deleterious social effects devolving into a system of politically racial/victim propaganda.

There are 50 states to find solutions to social problems thus finding the best practice.

"And what's this "liberal tyranny" if the majority are Republicans?

1. It doesn't matter if Rep are in office. There aren't enough political appointees to change the character of the Swamp. You'd have to fire 20,000 GS-15s.

Sep 24, 2017
Cont.

2. Fed expansion has been the liberal modus operand and hence given it that tilt. If you look at the implementation of statutory law into administrative law the interpretation tilts liberal. Example =Fed management of water ponds on private land is far overreach. There is no concept of limited interpretation as construed by the Constitution.

3. EO has devolved into racial preferences.
Believe it or not Federal extortion of banks by screwing with so called racial provisions of lending contributed greatly to the 2008 economic crisis. This was by the liberal enforcement of banking regulations enacted in the Bush admin.

"Do you always make stuff up like this?" Go to your safe space.

If you need further support then be specific and try to stay on point.


Sep 24, 2017
@Turgent, I don't know what "social welfare" means. Can you give us some details? You seem to paint a lot of broad strokes and use a lot of propaganda, but when it gets down to the real you can't quite explain what you mean.

As for the Administration, your guy is in charge of it and all of a sudden we have huge problems while this guy fires everybody. Democratic and Republican Presidents have had about equal opportunities over the last several decades. Seems to me the Administration is pretty mixed that way.

Or did you not realize that the Executive runs the Administration? Congress doesn't do it, the courts don't do it. That's basic in my Constitution. Dunno about yours.

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, you have made statements that are most obviously interpreted as I have interpreted them
Again, show me where I specifically claimed or implied that
everyone who's trying to do anything about racial and economic inequality problems is either corrupt or a dupe
If you cant do that then you lied about it. And BTW
what it looked like you were saying to me
-where in this thread was i talking to you and not greenonions?

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, it's obvious you have no arguments. You're the proverbial man who brought a knife to a gun fight.

The only real question here is whether you're really as stupid as you appear to be, or are a troll. No skin off my azz either way.

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, it's obvious you have no arguments. You're the proverbial man who brought a knife to a gun fight
Its obvious you made a claim about something I said, which you cant back up, and youre now trying to pussy your way out of it rather than admit you made a mistake.

Its also obvious that you didnt even read my post or you would have realized that it was a continuation of my response to greenonions, not you, and that you and I merely posted at the same time.

One more time. Justify what you said or apologize for lying about it.

Sep 24, 2017
You said it. I don't feel there's any "backing up" required. I said what I concluded it meant. You haven't offered any alternative explanation. That's all.

All you have to do is say what you meant. You can't. Obviously I'm correct and you have no answer, so you're trying to muddy the waters with denial and ad hominem.

So far your only arguments are "No!" and "You lied!"

Like I said, pitiful.

Say something, dude. Make a statement. Take a stand. Grow a pair.

Sep 24, 2017
Right. From now on youre da Scheide. Fair enough?

Sep 24, 2017
"social welfare" = social safety net, Medicaid, food stamps, dependent mothers care, enforcement of civil rights, etc.

"is in charge of it" that is a relative concept. Bureaucracy by its nature is unmanageable and unaccountable.

"your guy" I make no endorsement, however, the more disruptive he can be to the Swamp (including tyrannical bureaucracy) the greater benefit to all.

Bureaucracy illustrated, it took 8 years to fire VA management, which should have been prosecuted for gross criminal negligent and man-slaughter.

There is no value to life and individual dignity in a bureaucracy.

"Or did you not realize that the Executive runs the Administration? Congress doesn't do it" That is how it should work. Can I sell you a car from Florida?

Sep 24, 2017
I'm supposed to pay attention to a person without the simple pride to openly state their position?

I don't think so. It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that you are maneuvering, and if I was wrong you wouldn't be. You wouldn't need to be. You'd have some explanation of why you said what you said different from mine, and you don't.

Sep 24, 2017
Da Scheide spracht
You'd have some explanation of why you said what you said different from mine, and you don't
So... what was it that I said, specifically, that got your panties all bunched up?

Try copy/paste. People here do it all the time.

Sep 24, 2017
@Turbid, and your solution is do nothing.

Uh huh. That's gonna work.

Sep 24, 2017
@Otto, what you said is above. I explained what it meant. You haven't. That means I'm right.

We done here?

Meanwhile, u mad bro? :D


Sep 24, 2017
Sorry, not interested in unsolicited links. More playground, no doubt.

You just don't want to face the truth about what you said. That's chicken. There's some schoolyard for ya.

Sep 24, 2017
Whats an unsolicited link?

Sep 24, 2017
What's a chicken?

Someone who won't say what they think because they're afraid.

Sep 24, 2017
Ah here it is

"Logging into an account from an unsolicited link. As any gamer will point out, logging into an account directly from a link received on a ..."

-Its youtube you retard ahaahaaaa da Scheide afraid to click on a youtube link hehe

Sep 24, 2017
Changing the subject is chicken too.

You're as transparent as a 3 year old child, @Otto.

Why are you so afraid to say what you meant? Could it be you're embarrassed, and too cowardly to admit it?

Awwww. Poor baby. Can't face his own words.

Say what you meant, or tacitly admit to cowardice.

Sep 24, 2017


I really do hope it stays that way, but if the price is suppression of real freedoms for minorities by Nazis, I suspect that it's going to change.


Just shut up, you really are a moron. You don't want free speech you want political speak, and quite frankly I don't give a shit what your ignorant ass wants. You speak of "minorities" as if if Europeans are not already a global minority you twat. As if "ethnicists" are not already a minority, you espouse nothing but a foolish ideals and know not truth. I am gonna play the game now, the grand game. Thank you. You have returned me the will which had subsided.

Sep 24, 2017
Otto
Im trying to be patient here, but if youre not going to read what I write, and THINK about it, then whats the point?
Odd - I feel the exact same way. I asked on 2 separate comments to explain why you keep bringing up Conyers and Kilpatrick - and no answer. So who is not listening to who.
Then you accuse me of
and trying to secure a few billion AGAIN by the efforts of political scum.
But if you read my comments - I have repeatedly been very clear - that I understand that the billions spent on the war on poverty have not been effective. So inherent in that understanding - is that I am not calling for securing any billions. Nowhere in my comments could you imply that I am. I am not. So it is you who is not reading. It seems that you just want to get into a joust - and then score points, rather than exchange ideas. I have tried to understand your point - and it evades me. Perhaps we speak a different language.

Sep 24, 2017
@Turgent, so you prefer to vote for politicians who don't do anything about problems.

Noted. Not very bright, but noted.

Tell me, what do you think you pay taxes for, when they go to salaries of people you expect not to do anything about problems?

I mean, just askin'.


Problems? Fool, there are no problems save one. You are weak. That is your PROBLEM. You are nothing. You will die just like every man. The thing that really makes me chuckle is you still have a notion that existence is supposed to be "fair". But what you don't see is that it IS FAIR, we all live and we all die. What your pathetic communistic ideals of equality may have infected your brain with on the other hand, remove all doubt that YOU don't get it fool. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

Sep 24, 2017
What is it like to be a useful idiot I wonder. Then I realize that I would much rather be human and accept the nature of existence than be a fool whom thinks he can piss in the wind. You think you are the only fools who thought they could build a "better" world? For every problem you solve you create ten more, only Sisyphus would be proud of such idiots.

Sep 24, 2017
Otto Im trying to be patient here, but if youre not going to read what I write, and THINK about it, then whats the point?


You see, I laid it out plainly to you, but you like a fool have to go about stirring up the wind. Perhaps it is in your nature, regardless, do as you will. For even your actions of revolutionary thought are part of perfection. I ultimately have no ill will towards "you". For you see, YOU are ME, like a coin, two sides, one coin, yet separate. This is our game you see, a game of the eternal now and such a wonderful game it is. You, a "jew" and me a "gentile". You still don't understand, but don't worry, understanding is for a another "now". But you will. Because like a virus, I have already infected your thoughts, merely by interaction. This world is our playground, shall we dance or merely talk about dancing.

Sep 26, 2017
Odd - I feel the exact same way. I asked on 2 separate comments to explain why you keep bringing up Conyers and Kilpatrick - and no answer
Tell me what you dont understand about this
Cities arent natural, another artifact of human development. Humans found that they had to live in protected enclosures to defend themselves from roving bands of marauders expelled from their own cities. These cultures become seething cauldrons of corruption
??

Overpopulation fuels division, tribalism, corruption. Conyers and kilpatrick are corruption.

Ive explained this 3 or 4 different ways now.
Because like a virus, I have already infected your thoughts
BTW midge is on ignore. I suggest you do the same.

Sep 26, 2017
Tell me what you dont understand about this
I did - at least twice. You keep bringin up Conyers and Kilpatrick. You don't explain why you specifically need to use those two names - if the point you are making is that overcrowded city centers - often lead to corruption. You did not have to mention any names to make that point. There are millions of examples of corrupt officials - and no need to actually name any - to just make the point.
No matter - I am moving on. I do agree that there is often much corruption in overcrowded cities. The topic has shifted from racial disparities, and the lack of awareness of many Americans to this reality. Sure - corruption is a big part of this. Define corruption. Slavery was corruption - correct? The hunting/capture/sale/torture of humans was corrupt. So we seem as a species to have a great potential for evil - but also a great potential for compassion. I simply argue for at least attempting to construct systems that cont.

Sep 26, 2017
cont nurture the compassion, and discourage the evil. It seems to me that we are making progress - but from my perspective (and many others who write on the subject - and work for issues of social justice) - there is a long way to go. Along with other changes in my life - I take a minute to push back against the racists who post on Physorg. Will it do any good? Who knows? I think it is helping me to figure things out some.

Sep 26, 2017
You don't explain why you specifically need to use those two names
From a list of a dozen or so. Out of hundreds.
Slavery was corruption - correct?
Not to the people whos entire economies were based on it.

Rome was at times 90% slave. They owned businesses, held public office. They could work to buy their freedom.

Tell me - whats the difference between chicanos who come here to pick lettuce for money to buy room and board and slaves who came here to pick cotton for free room and board?

Did either have a choice?

Overpopulation makes labor a commodity. A buyers market.

Sep 27, 2017
Ghost says:
Overpopulation makes labor a commodity. A buyers market.
No, not at all. You are seeing the problem all wrong. With technology, the need and demands for labor will decrease as population increases. AI and robotics will soon obsolete labor, Overpopulation only adds to increasing tensions among competing factions. If labor is gone then what is left? It will be competition for creativity, and diversity of races that makes us useful and purposeful. We need diversity for mankind's survival!


Sep 27, 2017


"Tell me - whats the difference between chicanos who come here to pick lettuce for money to buy room and board and slaves who came here to pick cotton for free room and board?"

Maas ter had an interest in the well-being/property of his slaves. Nobody gives a shite about a picker.
Anyhow it will be moot soon as planting and picking are being automated.

Antebellum blacks may not have noticed a difference.

Read Hayek's Road to Serfdom.

Sep 27, 2017
Otto
Not to the people whos entire economies were based on it.
So you see - we do disagree. Hunting/capturing/torturing/enslaving/killing people is wrong. Yes that is a social construct - and I take responsibility for my social construct. I am good leaving it at that.

Sep 27, 2017
Hunting/capturing/torturing/enslaving/killing people is wrong
Absolutely. Chiefs who capture, torture, enslave, and sell their own excess people, as was the case in africa at the time, is definitely wrong.

Employers here who create a market for illegal workers so that cartels down south will capture, torture, enslave, and sell them, is also wrong.

What makes you think slaves in the US were routinely tortured? Did jefferson and washington torture their slaves? Were they the rule or the exception?

And again, what makes you think the hold of a ship is any different from a shipping container? What makes you think slaves back then had motives different from those of illegals today?

And given the FACT that overpopulation caused the same problems back then as it does today, what makes you think that at least some of those slaves were eager to escape the endemic violence in africa, for more quiet and peaceful lives here?

IOW why do you trust everything youre told?

Sep 28, 2017
Otto
What makes you think slaves in the US were routinely tortured?
The word 'routinely' is yours. For my assertion to stand - it does not matter if the torture is routine, or the exception. It just has to exist. There are plenty of accounts of slaves being tortured. https://www.pbs.o...16t.html Does it have to be a routine event for it to be wrong?
IOW why do you trust everything youre told?
That's a strong accusation - and I think not borne out by the evidence. Having a moral compass - does not make one stupid.

Sep 28, 2017
The word 'routinely' is yours. For my assertion to stand - it does not matter if the torture is routine, or the exception. It just has to exist
-and also, to your train of thought, if one innocent civilian dies then we are evil for attacking the taliban. If one cop shoots an innocent civilian then police are all evil.

Your moral compass does not stretch 200 years into the past.
Does it have to be a routine event for it to be wrong?
Youre equating slavery with torture. Why not law enforcement with torture as people do today? Maybe in the future we will look at arresting criminals as a civil rights infringement.

Back then slave owners who were by and large good and decent people, regarded slave ownership as we do employer/employee relationships today. Do some employers abuse employees? Sure. Perhaps one day we'll regard that whole system as evil as well.

Many people already do. Bernie sanders for instance.

Sep 28, 2017
if one innocent civilian dies then we are evil for attacking the taliban
Come on Otto - equating 3 - 400 years of slavery - with the current war on the Taliban is just ridiculous.
Back then slave owners who were by and large good and decent people
Perhaps they were. You were not there - and neither was I.
Do some employers abuse employees?
So equating a modern day business - perhaps cheating some employees out of some money - equates in your mind to the description I linked - describing the behavior of a slave owner. Yes Otto - my moral compass goes back 200 years. Hunting humans/enslaving them/pushing them off a ship to drown, so that you can collect the insurance money - is wrong.

Sep 29, 2017
Come on Otto - equating 3 - 400 years of slavery - with the current war on the Taliban is just ridiculous
Theyre both driven by the same mechanism - overpopulation. Chiefs in africa were just as eager to rid themselves of hotheaded troublemakers as are pakistani politicians. In pakistan they send them west to die fighting for allah. Stay in africa and die fighting neighboring tribes or free room and board in the americas - which would you choose?

Overpopulation is never included in these narratives because when it is it becomes the ONLY issue.

Sep 29, 2017
Perhaps they were. You were not there - and neither was I
You have the internet.

"The 1860 census shows that in the states that would soon secede from the Union, an average of more than 32 percent of white families owned slaves. Some states had far more slave owners (46 percent in South Carolina, 49 percent in Mississippi) while some had far less (20 percent in Arkansas)."

-And it is unreasonable to assume that half the population in arkansas were sadistic, evil people.

But its the same politically-motivated mindset that deemed all germans evil. Southerners were so reluctant to give up slavery, beyond its necessity, because the bible specifically condones it.

Sep 29, 2017
Yes Otto - my moral compass goes back 200 years. Hunting humans/enslaving them/pushing them off a ship to drown, so that you can collect the insurance money - is wrong
Wherever you have one person working for someone else there is the potential for abuse.
equates in your mind to the description I linked - describing the behavior of a slave owner
Ever read the
Grapes of Wrath? Communist Manifesto? OF COURSE the same potential exists. Ask those people who suffocated in that semi in the desert a few weeks ago.

Sep 29, 2017
So equating a modern day business - perhaps cheating some employees out of some money - equates in your mind to the description I linked - describing the behavior of a slave owner
The point is worth making again. The greatest revolutions in history were of workers against their employers. And this was specifically because overpopulation creates an unavoidable downward wage spiral.

Youve heard the term wage slave? If not i suggest you google it.
https://youtu.be/MTCen9-RELM

Sep 29, 2017
The point is worth making again. The greatest revolutions in history were of workers against their employers. And this was specifically because overpopulation creates an unavoidable downward wage spiral
Sure - we agree. That does nothing to alter my point - that slavery is wrong. Just as racism is wrong. Yes I have read The Grapes of Wrath. Great book. Are you trying to argue that slavery is not wrong?

Sep 30, 2017
The point is worth making again. The greatest revolutions in history were of workers against their employers. And this was specifically because overpopulation creates an unavoidable downward wage spiral
Sure - we agree. That does nothing to alter my point - that slavery is wrong. Just as racism is wrong. Yes I have read The Grapes of Wrath. Great book. Are you trying to argue that slavery is not wrong?
No.

Your original issue was inner city problems and how to fix them, and the discussion has been about all the related issues you dont understand.

You keep repeating old worn-out cliches (its an unprecedented poor black/rich white problem) and i keep supplying historical perspectives. You keep failing to respond to them.

Your cliches have resulted in bankrupt policies, corruption, and according to you, no progress. What makes you think theyll work this time?

Sep 30, 2017
all the related issues you dont understand
I wonder if you could see how arrogant that statement is? You understand everything - and I don't.
What makes you think theyll work this time?
What do you mean by 'theyll?' What 'policies' do you assert that I am proposing. I have proposed nothing. I have talked about needing a cultural shift. I have not elaborated on that. I have talked about the need for a conversation. How will we evolve solutions - if we do not talk to each other?
It feels from this end - that you are just looking to have a spat. I have proposed no policies - and have been clear multiple times - that I understand that past policies have been ineffective. I have not proposed repeating these policies. Yet you persist in insisting that I use 'cliches' - and want to repeat these old policies. I think that there MAY be solutions out there - but they have to be explored. i gave an example of social economics - cont.

Sep 30, 2017
But you give insight into the recalcitrance of culture. Mother teresa didnt want to change the culture of calcutta. The church was feeding off the misery. Instead of preaching birth control and the emancipation of women, it continued to feed resources into it which only accelerated overgrowth and exacerbated the problem.

You dont want to change your culture. Changing it would mean ending it and you dont want that to happen.

But like the inner city cultures before it, it is being ended. The best and brightest and most pragmatic are given the chance to leave while the rest are left to consume one another or die of sickness and old age.

Even now crips and bloods are being supplanted by MS13 and the cartels.

The demographic changes once again but the inner city remains the same, as always, and will never change.

Sep 30, 2017
http://www.resili...economy/ I suggest that this kind of experiment - MAY be a good starting point for exploring solutions. You agree with me that slavery is bad. I think the abolition movement was one of many movements - that can be seen historically as social organization that brought us forward. We no longer have slavery in the U.S. We have many other battles to fight. Young people today are far less religious, and much more comfortable in a multi-cultural society. I am hopeful that we will continue moving forward.
What are your solutions to poverty, racism, environmental destruction, war, etc. etc?

Sep 30, 2017
You understand everything - and I don't
Yah pretty much.

You dont understand overpopulation. You dont understand how the current problems have been the same throughout history, you didnt realize the extent of slave ownership in the south, you fail to appreciate how wage slavery is identical to southern slavery, you fail to appreciate how your approach is identical to the one that only generated more misery and corruption decades ago.
We no longer have slavery in the U.S
-and because you dont understand slavery youre blind to its continued existence.

"The practices of slavery and human trafficking are still prevalent in modern America with estimated 17,500 foreign nationals and 200,000 Americans being trafficked into and within the United States every year with 80% of those being women and children."

Sep 30, 2017
#1 thing to understand... its NOT a race issue and never was. White slave owners treat white slaves same as black slaves.

Its an economic issue which means its an overpopulation issue.

Per your link, Quebec doesnt have an overpopulation issue at present. It doesn't have 1000s of excess people sleeping on grates and in doorways like baltimore or san francisco.

Sep 30, 2017
and because you dont understand slavery youre blind to its continued existence.
Well - I think I have a reasonable understanding of the subject as a non historian. You present inaccurate information - so I think the same about you. Eg.
its NOT a race issue and never was.
"Even if many Irish immigrants faced discrimination and hard lives on these shores, it doesn't change the fact that American slavery—hereditary and race-based—was a massive institution that shaped and defined the political economy of colonial America" But no matter how many times I push you to elaborate on the 'policies' you accuse me of promoting - crickets chirping. I am right - you are just interested in having a spat.

Oct 01, 2017
In the Mediterranean, knights hospitaler made a healthy trade in captured Muslim slaves even as Muslims were dealing in Christians

"during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, slavery within the Mediterranean was an important component of life, in fact the Mediterranean slave-trade even out-produced the Transatlantic slave trade during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, and this is only in terms of the Barbary Coast."

-Like I said it was not a black/White thing. In the americas it was a combination of availability coupled with the requirement to add a certain percentage of negros to the melting pot. Because that's how the melting pot was designed to function. Those target groups who couldn't get here on their own were brought here in other ways.

History is best understood in terms of demographics. Sociopolitics is an applied science.

Oct 01, 2017
Like I said it was not a black/White thing
In the U.S. - it was and is a black white thing. Chattle slavery was specific to black people - as written into the slave laws. This then is the foundation of the problem we see discussed in today's article - a whole segment of our society - ie black people - who experience high levels of poverty - but not understood as such by white folks in the wider society.

Oct 02, 2017
Like I said it was not a black/White thing
In the U.S. - it was and is a black white thing. Chattle slavery was specific to black people
Wrong.

"Chattel slavery is what most people have in mind when they think of the kind of slavery that existed in the United States before the Civil War, and that existed legally throughout many parts of the world as far back as recorded history."

-Why would post something like that before checking it?
ie black people - who experience high levels of poverty - but not understood as such by white folks in the wider society
Overgrowth produces poverty. 'White people' are not obligated to support black families who cannot support themselves.

Those people who find themselves unable to earn a living in the inner city - leave.

Oct 02, 2017
Per the NCBI

"The unequal distribution of teen and unintended pregnancies by race is an important health-related disparity, alongside others, including infant mortality, life expectancy, and chronic disease (e.g., Williams and Jackson 2005). Relative to white women, Black women have earlier first births (age 21 versus 24) and have larger families (2.4 versus 2.2) than white women (Martinez et al. 2012: Tables 6 and 7). The teen pregnancy rate is more than twice as high for Black women (43.9 per 1000) than for white women... the unintended pregnancy rate for Black women is more than double (92 per 1000) the rate for white women (38 per 1000) (Finer and Zolna 2014" etc

-You want to fix something, fix that.

Oct 02, 2017
Why would post something like that before checking it?
Because it is historically accurate. Just because chattel slavery existed in other cultures, does not mean that the 400 year period we are talking about - in the U.S. was not about race - it was. "They developed slave codes to help institutionalize racism and other forms of social control to buttress the plantation system" The slave codes codified race based slavery.

You want to fix something, fix that
Nice racist deflection Otto. I want to be a part of a conversation - about living in a better world. A world without the kind of racism you display. Is racial inequality a complex subject? Of course it is. Of course it has it's roots in culturally complex issues - like slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, etc. etc. etc.

Oct 02, 2017
Jim Crow laws
The segregation and disenfranchisement laws known as "Jim Crow" represented a formal, codified system of racial apartheid that dominated the American South for three quarters of a century beginning in the 1890s. The laws affected almost every aspect of daily life, mandating segregation of schools, parks, libraries, drinking fountains, restrooms, buses, trains, and restaurants. "Whites Only" and "Colored" signs were constant reminders of the enforced racial order.
No Otto - none of this is about race - it is all about teenage pregnancy rates!! Slavery - segregation - Jim Crow laws etc. etc. had nothing to do with the current social reality - that we live in an economically divided world - based on race.
for every $100 of wealth that a white family has accumulated a black family has only five dollars and a few cents. And the same gap has existed for 50 years.

Oct 02, 2017
in the U.S. was not about race - it was
It was about opportunity.

"American Indians were compelled to labor in large numbers as well.

"In the wake of the deaths of indigenous Americans from European-conveyed microbes from which they had no immunity, the Spanish colonists turned to importing Africans. A racist and gross misinterpretation of this event posited that most Indians could not be enslaved because of their love for freedom, while Africans were used to having their labor controlled by "big men" in Africa. This dangerous view obscured a basic fact of early modern history: Anyone could be enslaved. Over a million Europeans were held as slaves from the 1530s through the 1780s in Africa, and hundreds of thousands were kept as slaves by the Ottomans in eastern Europe and Asia."

" In 1650, more English were enslaved in Africa than Africans enslaved in English colonies."
cont>

Oct 02, 2017
"Both before and during African enslavement in the Americas, American Indians were forced to labor as slaves and in various other forms of unfree servitude. They worked in mines, on plantations, as apprentices for artisans, and as domestics"

-Im sorry you know so little about the subject.
based on race
Yes, I showed you the reproductive disparity between blacks and everyone else.

I guess thats whiteys fault as well?
it is all about teenage pregnancy rates!!
We're talking about poverty among minorities in the inner city. Pop growth is greater among blacks while jobs and resources cannot keep up. I guess this is also whiteys fault.

OVERPOPULATION is ALWAYS the cause. Your dishonest politicians, academes, preachers et al are all lying to you because thats how they keep their jobs. They know they cant keep teens from dropping babies but they can certainly capitalize on it. Just like mother teresa.

Oct 02, 2017
for every $100 of wealth that a white family has accumulated a black family has only five dollars and a few cents. And the same gap has existed for 50 years
How many white families live in the inner city? The white immigrants have all left long ago to live in the suburbs where all the work is.

I dunno. Where I live there are lots of black people who speak english I can understand, drive their kids to soccer practice in beemers without those loud exhausts, and keep their guns in lock boxes beside the bed instead of in their waistbands. Never seen a neck tat.

I think I am repeating myself.

Oct 02, 2017
Im sorry you know so little about the subject.
Perhaps - but the point I made stands. The Chattle slavery of the U.S. - was based on race. It was codified into the slave codes. It was a part of the culture. You claim it was not based on race. You are wrong. Now you start in with the anecdotal stuff about black people where you live driving beemers. Earlier you castigated me for anecdotal. You are unable to be consistent, demonstrate lack of basic knowledge of the subject - and then accuse others of not knowing. Yes you certainly are repeating yourself.

Oct 03, 2017
The white immigrants have all left long ago
What an interesting observation. My wife works at a school in an inner city area. It is predominantly Hispanic. I sometimes sub in an inner city area - that is predominantly black. Both very poor areas - with a high level of crime. So you make the exact point. At one point you questioned why I believe our society is racially segregated. Now you talk about that segregation. How inconsistent. So of course - the question is 'why does this segregation exists?' Today's article is talking about that exact point. The data supports this point - as I cited above about wealth. So why does it exist? It is because we live in a country that is under the shadow of hundreds of years of race based slavery, segregation, and discrimination against this group.

Oct 03, 2017
chattle[sic] based on race
I guess youre still misspelling it because you didnt follow the excerpt I posted?

But if this is true then you will have to provide evidence that its somehow different than all the other instance of chattel slavery throughout the world over the centuries.

Its not.

Africa is closer than the middle east or Asia. Escaped Native American slaves could find refuge where they came from. Africa wad the logical alternative. And it wasnt the last.

"The first Chinese coolies were introduced in 1849 to supply labourers on the sugar estates, which had begun to feel the effects of the suppression of the African slave traffic. At first the coolies were treated with cruelty."
predominantly hispanic
Yeah I already referenced Ethnic Succession Theory.

Oct 03, 2017
Both very poor areas - with a high level of crime
And both overcrowded. Not enough work to go around. Tribes begin feeding off the locals and battling each other for turf. An old old story.
race based slavery, segregation, and discrimination against this group
Saying it doesnt make it true. And it certainly doesn't lead to any solutions. A lesson from the 60s you didnt learn.
The data supports this point - as I cited above about wealth. So why does it exist?
You haven't accepted the potential for tribes to naturally segregate. BOTH SIDES resist integration.

Reduce tribal identity, tribal behaviors, and most importantly overgrowth, and integration becomes easier. You also need to eliminate political forces that are currently exacerbating differences, by dredging up old discredited cliches that people are so susceptible to but never lead anywhere.

You know, the stuff youre spouting.

Oct 03, 2017
then you will have to provide evidence that its somehow different than all the other instance of chattel slavery throughout the world
Show me another instance - in which race was codified into the legal code. I don't have to address all of your other cases - just the one I am referencing. Let me explain your poor logic.
Saying it doesnt make it true
No - but providing evidence to support the assertion does - and I have done that multiple times. You provide no evidence.

Oct 04, 2017
Show me another instance - in which race was codified into the legal code
I did.

"Coolie traders were known as negreros, or slave traders"
https://books.goo...;f=false

"Myth: Slavery was always based on race.
Fact: Not until the 15th century was slavery associated primarily with people of African descent."

-But I'm not sure what point youre trying to make. Are you saying that brits sought out blacks to the exclusion of others, just because they were black? That if blacks were only found in central Asia then they would've been brought all the way from there?

Slaves in the americas came from where they were easiest to get - africa. This was true everywhere.
Cont>

Oct 04, 2017
"Between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast of North Africa."

-Because 1) they were Xian and 2) they were convenient.

Muslim law forbade enslaving fellow muslims.

But this has nothing to do with current inner city problems which have always occurred irrespective of race.
Cont>

Oct 04, 2017
"By the mid-1700's Americas major cities were flooded with poor and destitute families that had migrated to America in search of happiness and wealth, only to find poverty and strife. Death and disease was common amongst immigrants in that day and time.

"Poverty and famine of this magnitude resulted in an excessive amount of orphans"

"Crime rates soared and the apprenticeship program was suspended by 1790.

"The overwhelming burden of heavy taxation was accompanied by the rise of organized robber and smuggling gangs in every major city on the coast. These adult gangs were infamous for committing vicious acts of robbery and violence."

-Of course they misconstrue cause and effect. Overgrowth of traditional cultures results in excess kids that families can't support. These form up into gangs and begin to prey on locals in order to survive. And taxation had nothing to do with it.

This has always happened. It is happening today in black and Hispanic inner city pops.
Cont>

Oct 04, 2017
It's happening today in euro cities.

"Brutal and ruthless" Muslim, and "violent" Roma gypsy gangs are terrorising the streets of dozens of major European cities, as they vie for control of lucrative black market trade.

"Running drug rings and pimping prostitutes, as well as owning legitimate street businesses can be worth tens of millions of euros a year – and more – to the immigrant criminal gangs of Europe."

-Same cause, same effect. Identical outcomes. Overgrowth of obsolete cultures. And slavery has nothing to do with it, except of course for the fact that human trafficking of excess peoples is also an inevitable outcome and source of income.

I suppose you think this is also whiteys fault?

Oct 04, 2017
Myth: Slavery was always based on race
I have never said it was 'always' based on race.
Fact: Not until the 15th century was slavery associated primarily with people of African descent
Hallelujah - that is exactly what I have been saying - and you have been arguing round and round in circles.
I suppose you think this is also whiteys fault?
What I think is not the point. The facts are clear. Black people currently experience a high level of wealth disparity. That has been established with data. The roots of that disparity are clear - race based slavery, Jim Crow segregation, racial prejudice. There is mountains of references out there Otto. Here is just one quote "We have shown that within the US slavery does exert a lingering effect on income disparities and that it works through the persistent racial gap in education" From - http://voxeu.org/...avery-us

Oct 04, 2017
I have never said it was 'always' based on race
That was a quote from a reference. But you did say
The Chattle slavery of the U.S. - was based on race. It was codified into the slave codes. It was a part of the culture. You claim it was not based on race. You are wrong
-which sounds pretty much like 'always'.
that is exactly what I have been saying
You were saying that in the US slaves were african. Thats not true.
The roots of that disparity are clear - race based slavery
There is no connection there. And prejudice is something apart from, and not related to, slavery. Like I say, catholics had a far rougher time integrating into US society and they were never slaves.
cont>

Oct 04, 2017
There is mountains of references out there Otto
-the bulk of which are politically motivated, by the kwame kilpatricks of the world who FEED off the people who fall for it.

Lots of refs out there for the tabula rasa nonsense which was also borne in the 60s and since proven to be pure drivel.

Its a ploy to try to extort money by making people feel guilty for something they had no part in. Its like blaming people today for Wounded Knee.

If you need to blame somebody for US slavery then blame the brits, who codified it throughout all their colonies. Theyre the ones who brought africans here and configured the economy for it.

And again this is NOT new. Slavery has always been used to kick-start colonial economies.

What the hell do italian academies know about US slavery anyway?
"Graziella Bertocchi - Citazioni di Google Scholar
scholar.google.it/citations?user=V5kmN2UAAAAJ&hl=en
Professor of Economics, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia"

-from your link.

Oct 04, 2017
I could be wrong but there seems to be considerable mention of communism and socialism in the publications of Graziella Bertocchi and Arcangelo Dimico, respectively from Belfast and Modena, 2 apparent hotbeds of leftist fomentings.

Oct 04, 2017
You were saying that in the US slaves were african. Thats not true
Yes it is true. There was something like 12 million African slaves brought over to the Americas. Only about 600,000 came to the colonies. The slaves (and now I am talking about codified - chattel slaves) - which is what I have been talking about all along - were African.
If you need to blame somebody for US slavery then blame the brits
Not just the Brits - but I would agree with you. Except I am not interested in 'blame' - that is your motive - I am interested in an honest understanding of where we are today - and the historical roots of that circumstance. Blame is your issue.

Oct 05, 2017
Yes it is true. There was something like 12 million African slaves brought over to the Americas. Only about 600,000 came to the colonies. The slaves (and now I am talking about codified - chattel slaves) - which is what I have been talking about all along - were African
I gave you examples of coolies, native Americans, and wage slavery, no different from chattel slavery.
not interested in blame
Of course you are. You blame rich white Americans for slavery and you blame them for economic disparity. And you expect THEM to fix a problem that is not theirs to fix.
honest understanding of where we are today
- And I gave you one; overgrowth by obsolete cultures in a closed environment. I showed you how this is typical throughout history, throughout the world.

And you've failed to acknowledge this because you think you already know the answer; rich white people. You dont want dialogue, you just want to preach.
Cont>

Oct 05, 2017
The only reason you dont have hordes of castaway children in the streets as in the past is because of welfare. You fail to acknowledge the common thread throughout history - overgrowth. You fail to acknowledge the unsustainable birthrate among inner city pops. You fail to see how this leads to crime and corruption.

And so you cant understand the cause of the problems or how they can be solved. You want to blame whitey and make him feel guilty enough to throw more money at the problem, same as a few gens ago.

Didn't work then and it isn't going to work now.

Whitey did give you roe v wade, you should be grateful for that at least. Imagine inner city problems without that.

"Even as the U.S. abortion rate is at its lowest since Roe v. Wade, women of color are five times as likely to terminate a pregnancy as their white counterparts"

-What's that? You think statistics are racist??

Of course you do.

Oct 05, 2017
I gave you examples of coolies, native Americans, and wage slavery, no different from chattel slavery
Of course it is different - and fundamental to understanding this issue. "Slaves and their progeny were the property of an owner, and slaves were owned until they died. They could be bought and sold; their owners controlled their lives and those of their children. When slaves were sold, the contract was a legal document, even to the extent that a buyer could sue the seller if a slave was sold under false pretenses"
It is an obvious point that the examples you keep giving - are not the same as chattel slavery. Of course the treatment of Native Americans is a whole different Phd - and data will probably show that Native Americans also have a wealth gap - due to that historical legacy. You are just flat wrong Otto - and clearly a historical revisionist. Nothing I have said has been about blame - that is your word - and your hang up.

Oct 06, 2017
Indentured servitude
"An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time period. The employer is often permitted to assign the labor of an indenturee to a third party. Indenturees usually enter into an indenture for a specific payment or other benefit or to meet a legal obligation, such as debt bondage."

"Masters given to flogging often did not care whether their victims were black or white."[11]
Indentured servants could not marry without the permission of their master, were sometimes subject to physical punishment and did not receive legal favor from the courts."
Cont>

Oct 06, 2017
"The subtle difference between slavery and indenture-ship is best seen here as women were still subjected to the control of the plantation owners as well as their newly assigned 'partner'.[19] Their status was closer to chattel property than human being."

"Indentured servants and slaves were treated in broadly similar ways. They were both brought to the New World in horrible conditions with many dying along the way. They were both subject to physical punishment from their masters. They both worked for no pay and with no control over their working lives."

-True, coolies had term limits. But with no money and nowhere else to go they were often stuck in perpetual servitude. And because the master had no investment in them they were often treated worse.

So your semantics is not a convincing argument. I don't think the difference mattered much to THEM.

Oct 06, 2017
and data will probably show that Native Americans also have a wealth gap - due to that historical legacy
Undoubtedly, except for all that income from casinos. And the overwhelming majority of them were not slaves.

I would also have to say that ancestral indentured servitude has no relation to the earning potential of todays Chinese, italian, irish, eastern European, or Asian Indian Americans.

IOW slavery in the past is not relevant to today's purported wage gap. Living in areas of high unemployment, lack of a desire to improve oneself, and certainly the innate bigotry of the tribalist predeliction that we ALL share, are indeed relevant.

Oct 06, 2017
Mr onions says
a very broken culture - that is controlled by wealthy people of privilege - who have no compassion for anyone but themselves, and no interest in even having a conversation about solutions. The legacy of colonialism and slavery is still very strong...
-and then he says
Nothing I have said has been about blame - that is your word - and your hang up
So what other word would you like to use? Responsible for? Culpable? Guilty?

Oct 06, 2017
So your semantics is not a convincing argument
I've tried to give an argument that is based on facts, and reasoning. It feels to me that you just love to twist everything up into knots. Let me restate my position - one that I think I have been consistent with.
1. Understanding the current economic/racial disparity that is identified in today's article - and other references I have given - requires a historical understanding of the 300 years of slavery, as well as Jim Crow segregation laws, segregation in the U.S., and racial prejudice/discrimination. No 'blame' - that is your issue - just knowing the facts.
2. Trying to equate the historical truth of slavery, with indentured servitude, or coolies - is ignorant. Slavery in N. America spanned approximately 300 years. Africans were forcibly removed from their home country; sold at markets as chattel slaves; were legal property of their 'owners' (including their children). After slavery was abolished -

Oct 06, 2017
Segregation against this group became the law. African Americans continued to experience segregation discrimination and a society that was stacked against them in terms of having the opportunities to break free of these hundreds of years oppression. No blame here Otto - whitey is your childish word - just looking at the facts. No example you have given comes close to this reality - and you continue to provide no support - for your revisionist views. I will offer a few articles for support - showing where my views come from - as well as from my own personal experience in life.
http://voxeu.org/...avery-us
https://www.brook...ghettos/]https://www.brook...ghettos/[/url]
https://www.brook...ghettos/]https://www.brook...ghettos/[/url]
There are dozens more references if you care to use google. Where is you support?

Oct 06, 2017
Trying to equate the historical truth of slavery, with indentured servitude, or coolies - is ignorant
Thinking that every time a white person meets a black guy he is thinking about how his great great grandaddy was a slave, is really ignorant. Nobody thinks this way except black people, and only because they are constantly reminded of it by unscrupulous skanky politicians and academies.

White people - as well as blacks - might have bigoted thoughts but these have nothing to do with slavery.
Slavery in N. America spanned approximately 300 years
-and slavery spanned our entire history. So what?

And the inner city problems you want to think are uniquely black, are identical to your Hispanic neighborhoods, as well ad those in Brazil, France, and around the world. They're as old as cities.

You should be embracing your affinity with these cultures rather than trying to make it a black slave thing.

Reduce growth, reduce tribalism, the real enemies.

Oct 06, 2017