Nearly 70 percent of evangelicals do not view religion, science as being in conflict

Nearly 70 percent of evangelicals do not view religion, science as being in conflict

Media and popular culture might portray religion and science as being at odds, but new research from Rice University suggests just the opposite.

Findings from the recently completed study "Religious Understandings of Science (RUS)" reveal that despite many misconceptions regarding the intersection of science and , nearly 70 percent of evangelical Christians do not view the two as being in conflict with each other.

The research was presented by Rice sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund today in Washington, D.C., during the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) conference, Perceptions: Science and Religious Communities. Ecklund, the principal investigator and researcher for the RUS project, is the Autrey Professor of Sociology and director of Rice's Religion and Public Life Program.

Ecklund noted that evangelicals are of interest in this study because they constitute approximately 26 percent of the population in the U.S. and are often considered the most hostile toward science.

"We really wanted to determine if this claim was based in any truth," Ecklund said. "Although many politicians and the media at large portray evangelicals as distrustful of science, we found that this is more myth than reality."

Other key findings:

  • Nearly half of evangelicals (48 percent) view science and religion as complementary to one another; 21 percent view them as entirely independent of one another.
  • Overall, 38 percent of Americans view religion and science as complementary, and 35 percent of Americans view science and religion as entirely independent.
  • In the U.S., 76 percent of scientists in the general population identify with a religious tradition.
  • Only 15 percent of Americans and 14 percent of evangelicals agree that does more harm than good.
  • Jews (42 percent), Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus (52 percent as a group) and the nonreligious (47 percent) are more interested in new scientific discoveries than evangelicals (22 percent) are.

Ecklund plans to write a book about the survey findings with Chris Scheitle, a sociology professor at the West Virginia University. She hopes the research will shed light on how religious groups understand science and vice versa, in addition to providing outreach and translation to individuals who might have difficulties with some aspects of science.

RUS is the largest study of American views on religion and . It includes a nationally representative survey of more than 10,000 Americans and more than 300 in-depth interviews with Christians, Jews and Muslims; more than 140 of the latter three groups are evangelical Christians The study also included extensive observations of 23 religious centers in Houston and Chicago. The research is being provided to the AAAS Dialogue on Science Ethics and Religion program to help foster communication between and scientists. More information about the study is available at www.elainehowardecklund.com/research/.


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Misconceptions of science and religion found in new study

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Mar 13, 2015
I have an idea: Let's divide into groups, each group inventing an Imaginary Being. The teams can create entire legends around this Imaginary Being, and base our societies around these stories.

Then, we can kill each other over whose Imaginary Being is the "real" one.

Mar 13, 2015
Science and religion are not in conflict.

The first great scientists were religious.

The conflict is from those who have chosen science as their religion and have faith they can use science to explain EVERYTHING.

Mar 13, 2015
What cannot be proven must be taken on faith, which is what we use for things which have no proof but we desperately want to believe.

Mar 13, 2015
This sounds like the 'race card' that the 'liberals' must keep playing to keep the people in conflict with each other.

'Liberals' who worship science need to keep hyping animosity when little exists.

Why?

What do they fear?

Mar 13, 2015
We "fear" the kind of ignorant superstition that is responsible for the witch hangings, the hundreds of thousands of people burned alive by Christians, we fear another Inquisition, another Holocaust.

What do you fear, . . not being with your Invisible Companion?

Mar 13, 2015
Gkam,
When did the last witch hangings, the last Inquisitions, take place? 300 + years ago? And I think you have Christians being burned alive by Romans confused in your small mind. We are surrounded daily by examples of Christians feeding the hungry and risking their lives to heal the sick. Yet I see not a word you or your ilk spew regarding the religion that currently murders by beheading on video, that kidnaps wholesale entire villages, selling little girls into sexual slavery. You are a coward and a fool, cowering in your mommy's basement as you bravely rail at the harmless Christians while ignoring those who daily commit atrocities in the name of their god.

Mar 13, 2015
ignoring those who daily commit atrocities in the name of their god.


Including the god of the state.

How many black babies were aborted today with the blessings of the 'liberal' state?

Mar 13, 2015
I don't know, Ryggy, . . how many were yours?

Same quality of question.

Mar 13, 2015
Science is becoming the new religion, as in the case of climate "science" and that's only if you can call it science.

Mar 13, 2015
"This fictional conflict is created by supporters of pseudo science popularized in society with the support of the wicked, . . . "
------------------------------------------

And what do you want to do to "wicked" people, Ren?

Mar 13, 2015
The jews invented them selves by essentially stealing the by-laws of Babylon, taking out King Hammurubi's name and writing in "Our god said".


Then the Jews were very smart as they are still very much alive as a culture in spite of attempts by various empires to destroy them.
Maybe they are God's people.

Because 'modern' science refuses to accept a theory of God, they can't look at the totality of the history of the Jews and Christians for any evidence to explain the success of their philosophy.

Mar 13, 2015
"though most evidence does suggest the jews were the first ones to incorporate a monotheistic doctrine, Lex"
--------------------------------------------

You have forgotten The Aten.

Mar 13, 2015
fools crap:
"For it is necessary in every practical science to proceed in a composite (i.e. deductive) manner. On the contrary in speculative science, it is necessary to proceed in an analytical manner by breaking down the complex into elementary principles."
http://todayinsci...ions.htm

"Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: 'Ye must have faith.'

Max Planck

Read more at http://www.brainy...66YB.99"

Mar 13, 2015
Plank was not known for his religion.

And what is his definition of "faith"? Probably not yours.

Mar 13, 2015
Well, gosh, I guess that proves the existence of your Imaginary Being.

Mar 13, 2015
I believe what this suggests, is not only are we capable of both rational and irrational thought but are also able to reconcile any conflict that may evoke. This may well be, the very definition of sanity.

Mar 13, 2015
There will be always space for some deity, but we shouldn't ignore the fact, that the science systematically wipes it out. We shouldn't also neglect the fact, that the contemporary science becomes increasingly bigot & religious, just in its own way. The dense aether concept could even explain some artifacts, which are considered myths with science or miracles today with Holy Church (ghosts, human spirit, various superpowers).

Mar 13, 2015
Cue the Theremin.

Mar 13, 2015
that the science systematically wipes it out.


How can it?

One of the very first characters on Start Trek NG was Q. Essentially a god.

Another interesting story from the original Star Trek was 'The Empath'.

As for the Bible, the fundamental theme throughout is faith. God wants His people to have faith in Him. Of course God could show He exists, but he only does this for a few.
Now whether you have faith in God or not, why would the authors of the Bible, or God, want people to have faith?
Science has shown that faith is a survival trait.
If you don't believe in God, why/how did a small group of nomads in the Middle East document healthy diet laws and promote the concept of faith?
The authors of the Bible must have pretty smart, or inspired.

Mar 13, 2015
I pretty much already assumed this of most evangelicals. If you believe a magical being makes sense, then you should automatically believe everything else does too.

Of course there is no conflict. It just makes sense! Magical thinking is the foundation of magical logic.

Truly - what would this world have been if early on we didn't automatically inherit the belief system of our culture? Social life and growing up would be difficult at best. If you didn't learn to think logically as a child, you really need to have something to fall back on that seems to make sense

Knowing what we know now, we have the opportunity to escape this primitive barrier to human betterment. Educating kids about logic before they learn about historical mythologies gives them a substantial head-start in life.

Mar 13, 2015
That's the way it should be and originally was. Christians founded the branches of Modern Science and the Modern Scientific Method; they have been pioneers in the scientific discipline throughout its history, to this day.

I believe God and Science are compatible.

Mar 13, 2015
I believe God and Science are compatible.

Of course you would! It's an inescapable inevitability of belief.

As I said above, educating kids about logic before they learn about historical mythologies gives them a substantial head-start in life.

My sister's two girls are both in grade school and are brilliant, advanced students. Staunch young non-believers, they excel both academically and in the arts. They also both study and appreciate mythology, even to the extent of visiting the churches of some of their friends. Yet, at this young age, they can see and dismantle the illogical rationalizations of religious dogma with a natural ease that I wish I had.

Might I add, they are both very respectful of others and a tremendous joy to hang out with.

Mar 13, 2015
educating kids about logic


Where is the logic in love or art?

appreciate mythology


Where is the logic in mythology?

Recall when Spock told Ston, "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

What will Zink do if/when his nieces become born again Christians? Will he think they are still so logical?


Mar 13, 2015
Might I add, they are both very respectful of others and a tremendous joy to hang out with.


Great, they are going places.

Belief/Faith in God is an individual's affair at "free will," a conviction of the heart, and many great minds in the scientific discipline arrive at that through observatioinal science and the issue of "origin" of life and matter.

Mar 13, 2015
It's too bad those who worship science don't attack the illogical and irrationally of socialism as viciously as they do Christians.
But then the science worshipers need state power to force others to believe them and force them to pay for their 'science'.

Mar 13, 2015
"Recall when Spock told Ston, . . "
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ummmm,. . those were just fictitious characters in a fictitious drama.

Mar 13, 2015
Gravity could have been discovered by the ancients,


Babies discover gravity quiet early in life.

Science still doesn't know how to create or control gravity so how well is gravity known?

Mar 13, 2015
Rygg, how quiet are babies, really? Probably better behaved than you, you ignorant fuck.

Mar 13, 2015
Gravity could have been discovered by the ancients,


Babies discover gravity quiet early in life.

Science still doesn't know how to create or control gravity so how well is gravity known?

Nonsense. Do you know enough about science to even discuss it meaningfully ?


Who created a gravity generator?

"NASA hopes these experiments will help us understand our universe and ourselves. "
http://www.spacep...vity/en/

NASA HOPES?

Mar 13, 2015
"Recall when Spock told Ston, . . "
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ummmm,. . those were just fictitious characters in a fictitious drama.

We do not "worship" anything, it must be proven. Science is the tool for doing that.

And what is this silly concept of "worship"? Is it the making of noises and gestures which penetrate everything up to some being, which loves us for it?

Worship, prostrating ourselves for some silly idea from the Ages of Ignorance is not a good idea, let alone a foundation for life. First of alll,how do you know you are not just following one of those religions which the real god hates, and are guaranteed to send you to Hell? How do you know the Muslims are wrong?

Mar 13, 2015
"The E.U. Experiment Has Failed," Bruce Thornton of Hoover Institution makes the case that the verdict is in, the dream is dead, the EU is unraveling, One Europe is finished."
"For a nation to survive, its women must produce on average 2.1 children. Europe has not seen that high a fertility rate in 40 years. Today, it is down to 1.6 children. Europeans are an aging, shrinking, disappearing, dying race."
"Europe and its nations were forged in the matrix of ideas, ideals, and beliefs of Christianity, which gives divine sanction to notions like human rights, the sanctity of the individual, political freedom and equality. Today across Europe Christian belief is a shadow of its former self."
"Political religions—communism, fascism, Nazism—are substitute gods that failed. "Nor has secular social democracy … provided people with a transcendent principle that justifies sacrifice for the greater good, or even gives people a reason to reproduce."

Mar 13, 2015
"Christianity gave Europe its faith, identity, purpose, and will to conquer and convert the world. Christianity created Europe. And the death of Christianity leaves the continent with no unifying principle save a watery commitment to democracy and La Dolce Vita."
"Less and less does multiculturalism look like the wave of the future."
http://www.theame...he-past/

Like everyone else, does Europe blame the USA for its failures?

Mar 13, 2015
Where is the logic in love or art?

Where is the logic in mythology?
I see your stumbling block. You retain a significant obstacle to a more progressive understanding of human existence.

By evolving a propensity for a more logical approach to viewing the world, comprehension of what you see and appreciation of the universe develop much more rapidly, and at an earlier age.

Both my nieces developed a deep interest in literature and are well-read. One is 4-5 years above normal reading level for her age, the other, 6-7 years. Both have been performing in major dance and theatrical performances in Atlanta, their choice, not the parents. Both can hold logical and relevant conversations with adults at a mature level. I have other friends that have raised children with similar approaches, and their children seem similarly gifted.

Of course you will take issue with this. It's not what you want to believe. That, in a nutshell, is the handicap you acquire with belief.

Mar 13, 2015
You are confusing science and technology. Not having a "gravity generator" does not imply a lack of understanding


Observing the effects of gravity and using gravity does not explain the why and how of gravity.

So, if it's only an issue of technology, what technology is needed to create or block gravity?

Mar 13, 2015

I do not know of any scientist who arrived at religious belief by observational science. There is no observational basis for religious belief. On the contrary.


Emperical/Observational Science constantly reveals design, data and intent in this existence on every level, hence intelligence. Then we have the begging question, where did life and matter come from? Those who are directly invovlved in the scientific research are constantly in awe of what they observe. All of that leads many of them to believe in a Higher Power.

Mar 13, 2015
progressive understanding of human existence.

What BS is this?

heir children seem similarly gifted.


I am certain there are at least as many Christian children who are just as gifted.


Mar 13, 2015
"If you don't believe in God, why/how did a small group of nomads in the Middle East document healthy diet laws and promote the concept of faith?"
----------------------------------------

How else to make them do healthy things but to threaten them with imaginary boogymen in the sky?

Mar 13, 2015
We Europeans are hard working


Really?
What is the unemployment rate?
How about the French 35 hour workweek?
Or how Greeks can retire from their 'hard work' in their 50s?
" Denmark has been at work overhauling entitlements, trying to prod Danes into working more or longer or both. "
{Will Danes be so happy when forced to work?}
http://www.nytime...ult.html

Mar 13, 2015
Hard working?

"With per capita GDP around $100,000, the Norwegian lifestyle has become such that the work week averages less than 33 hours, one of the lowest in the world, and while unemployment is low, there is large underemployment, made possible by benefits."
http://www.reuter...20140508

Mar 13, 2015
"Judging from the experiences in Scandinavia, the welfare state worked to some extent because it was based in small and ethnically homogenous nations, with a strong cultural and religious (Protestant) work ethic which had just experienced several generations of a booming capitalist economy. These traits kept the system afloat for decades, but the work ethic and the sense of duty slowly got eroded and replaced by a sense of rights, while the high taxation and the passivity bred by the system eroded initiative and the will to take risks."
"Human beings like solving problems, planning and hoping for the future, and work and careers enable us to do this. "If government becomes too paternalistic it deprives us of the need to be responsible for ourselves," he says. "Then two things happen. We don't get those challenges that seem to make us happier. And after a while we might even lose our capacity to make choices, "
http://www.brusse...ode/1234

Mar 13, 2015
""One reason for the epidemic of self-destructiveness that has struck British, if not the whole of Western, society, is the avoidance of boredom. For people who have no transcendent purpose to their lives and cannot invent one through contributing to a cultural tradition (for example), in other words who have no religious belief and no intellectual interests to stimulate them, self-destruction and the creation of crises in their life is one way of warding off meaninglessness.""
" The welfare state has created a dependent people utterly incapable of finding value in life; instead, they find themselves incapable of typical human feelings such as pride, honor, and empathy. These feelings, along with the means to create meaning to life, have been taken over by the welfare state. "
http://www.brusse...ode/1234

Mar 13, 2015
The conflict is from those who have chosen science as their religion and have faith they can use science to explain EVERYTHING.

Interesting thing is - we will have that ability someday...

Mar 13, 2015
"Americans say "God bless America" or "In God we trust." Europeans giggle and think it's funny or silly. But we have some buzzwords of our own. "Solidarity," for instance. Is the welfare state, on some deep, subconscious level, a substitute for God? An omnipresent state instead of an omnipresent God? Europeans lost belief in God in Auschwitz and the trenches of WW1. We no longer trust in God, so we put our trust in the welfare state, to create a small oasis of security on a continent that has had such a turbulent history. The irony is that it worked well only in countries which used to have a strong religious base, a Protestant work ethic and sense of duty. As that religious heritage gets weakened, so does a necessary precondition for the welfare state."
http://www.brusse...ode/1234

Mar 13, 2015
The conflict is from those who have chosen science as their religion and have faith they can use science to explain EVERYTHING.

Interesting thing is - we will have that ability someday...

That is your faith and the faith of others who worship science.

From a scientist:

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
"Whence come I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it."

Max Planck

Mar 13, 2015
Moral laws do not tolerate relativism because it must maintain order in society.

Relativism is HOW it maintains order...

Mar 13, 2015
The conflict is from those who have chosen science as their religion and have faith they can use science to explain EVERYTHING.

Interesting thing is - we will have that ability someday...

That is your faith and the faith of others who worship science.

Not faith or worship, just acknowledgement...

From a scientist:

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
"Whence come I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it."

Max Planck

A statement relative to the level of understanding available at that time....

Mar 13, 2015
Not faith or worship, just acknowledgement...

More like hope.

How do you predict the future?
Not very scientific.

"We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future."

Max Planck


Mar 13, 2015
Not faith or worship, just acknowledgement...

More like hope.

How do you predict the future?
Not very scientific.

By LOOKING...and - one foot in front of the other...

"We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future."
Max Planck

A scientist waxes philosophical after a couple of brandies and that is how you decide to run the rest of your life?!?!
Not very scientific...

Mar 14, 2015
Speaking of philosophy: We spent the entire start of our civilization personifying the forces that we couldn't understood. We thought god(s) were behind lightning, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, the motions of the planets and stars. We built entire religions around them. Eventually we found out how these things really worked and what they are.

Of fucking course the early scientists were part of that society! That should surprise no one! It was a pretty normal thing back then. They were just figuring this shit out.

We, on the other hand, have the good fortune to live in an age where we can assimilate all this knowledge. It's remarkably easy for us to see the previous mistakes our ancestors made with their superstitious notions and misinterpretations. They were ENTIRELY misled by this tendency to personify their ignorance of the universe.

So I have to ask - Why in the world are you people still personifying the fucking unknown? Have you learned nothing from past mistakes?

Mar 14, 2015
By LOOKING...and - one foot in front of the other...


Not very scientific and requires hope and faith.

WG has faith that humans will become God, someday.

Why do those who follow the religion of science and attack God, believe humans will become God through science?

Mar 14, 2015
Praying does not cure people, science does.


The fatal flaw of those who worships science.

They must reject any observation that does not fit into their view of the universe.


Mar 14, 2015
"Despite its adherents' pose of rationality, scientism has a serious problem: it is either self-refuting or trivial. Take the first horn of this dilemma. The claim that scientism is true is not itself a scientific claim, not something that can be established using scientific methods. Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. "
" For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; "
"Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle."
http://www.thepub...03/1174/

Mar 14, 2015
This is what Planck meant:

"What common sense means by "heat," "cold," "red," "green," "loud," etc. – the way things feel, look, sound, and so forth in conscious experience – drops out as a mere projection of the mind. The new method thus ensured that the natural world as studied by science would be quantifiable, predictable, and controllable – precisely by redefining "science" so that nothing that did not fit the method would be allowed to count as "physical," "material," or "natural." All recalcitrant phenomena would simply be "swept under the rug" of the mind, reinterpreted as part of the mental lens through which we perceive external reality rather than part of external reality itself."
http://www.thepub...03/1174/

Mar 14, 2015
"If a certain method of studying nature affords us a high degree of predictive and technological power, all that shows is that the method is useful for dealing with those aspects of nature that are predictable and controllable. It does not show us that those aspects exhaust nature, that there is nothing more to the natural world than what the method reveals. Neither does it show that there are no rational means of investigating reality other than those involving empirical prediction and control. To assume otherwise is fallaciously to let one's method dictate what counts as reality rather than letting reality determine what methods are appropriate for studying it"
http://www.thepub...03/1184/

Mar 14, 2015
You pretend that your faith is science and that science is faith.


No.

Faith IS required to practice scientism. But the practitioners of scientism refuse to admit to anyone, including themselves, they have such faith.

As Billy Koen discusses in A Discussion of the Method, science is just another heuristic humans use to understand their universe.

Mar 14, 2015
Science and religion/Christianity are conflicted. Science destroys the myths of the Bible. Case in point: Evolution is a fact. Since evolution is a fact, then the creation story is false. If the creation story is false, there was no Adam, no Eve, and no talking snake. If there were no Adam and Eve, and no talking snake, there was no original sin. If there were no original sin, humanity is not born damaged, dirty and sinful, worthy of death and eternal torture. If man isn't born damaged, dirty and sinful, worthy of death and eternal torture, there was no need for their god impregnate a human virgin woman so Jesus could be born and die for our sins so we could escape the death and eternal torture their god has in store for us.
And, in a nutshell, that is how science destroyed the Christian myth.

Mar 14, 2015
Science do not sweep anything under the rug,


Of course it does.

the Christian myth


Of course you completely disregard the most important message of Christ and how its philosophy changed and changes the world for the better.

Socialists must reject this message, the axiom that humans have inherent, unalienable rights from God, so the socialists can be the ones granting the rights to life, liberty and property.


Mar 14, 2015
"Scientism" does not exist. It is a word invented by religious folks to discredit science.


Of course it exists. You just wrote it down. Words are created, defined and redefined everyday.

Those who practice scientism are the ones discrediting science.

Science destroys the myths of the Bible.


How scientific were the authors of the Bible? Are you asserting the authors considered the Bible a scientific paper?
Taking a larger view, why do those who practice scientism refuse to acknowledge the significance of the Bible throughout history?
Why not do a scientific study analyzing how such documents were able to be so popular and influential for thousands of years?

Mar 14, 2015
How will anti-GMOs react to this?

"American scientists have attempted to modify the DNA of human egg cells using a new gene-editing technique that could eliminate inherited diseases from subsequent generations of affected families, The Independent can reveal."
http://www.indepe...632.html

WG should love this it it works. It is just one step in the process to turn humans into God.

Mar 14, 2015
"While neuroscience has made tremendous progress illuminating the functioning of the brain, why we have a subjective experience remains mysterious. The problem of the soul lies exactly here, in understanding the nature of the self, the "I" in existence that feels and lives life. But this isn't just a problem for biology and cognitive science, but for the whole of Western natural philosophy itself."

"Many scientists dismiss the implications of these experiments, {aka 'sweeping under the rug') because until recently, this observer-dependent behavior was thought to be confined to the subatomic world. However, this is being challenged by researchers around the world. In fact, just this year a team of physicists (Gerlich et al, Nature Communications 2:263, 2011) showed that quantum weirdness also occurs in the human-scale world."

https://www.psych...says-yes

Mar 14, 2015
"When the castle of an old scientific theory begins to show fault lines, no one wants to pay attention at first. The old castle simply took too much work to build in the first place, and if it falls, an entirely new one will have to be constructed in its place."
"Today many believe that the living spiritual truths of religion have lost their power, and that science, not faith, is the road to truth. Before my experience I strongly suspected that this was the case myself.

But I now understand that such a view is far too simple. The plain fact is that the materialist picture of the body and brain as the producers, rather than the vehicles, of human consciousness is doomed. In its place a new view of mind and body will emerge, and in fact is emerging already. This view is scientific and spiritual in equal measure and will value what the greatest scientists of history themselves always valued above all: truth."
http://www.newswe...fe-65327

Mar 14, 2015
The Newsweek article of the physician in a coma experiencing something not of this world was discussed by Carl Sagan in Cosmos.

Modern science must reject any subjective human observations. But what if that is the only 'objective' data available?

Would any scientist be willing to attempt to medically recreate Dr. Alexander's experience?
But why would they? As Dr. Alexander noted, any modern scientist would have to admit the possibility that objective, observational science is flawed.
So modern science will sweep this under the rug until more people experience the new paradigm.

Mar 14, 2015
Okay, Maybe it's not a religion, but yes, a few ceremonies do crop up.

I just finished eating my pie, as it was the right thing to do.

It is a few minutes past 9:26:54 am on 3/14/15

It was apple with cool whip topping.

Yummm!. Good Pi

Mar 14, 2015
When the castle of an old scientific theory begins to show fault lines, no one wants to pay attention at first. The old castle simply took too much work to build in the first place, and if it falls, an entirely new one will have to be constructed in its place
It's solely economical problem - the existing theories serve for scientists as a mean of jobs and tool for making of money. So that when these theories are threatened with new experiments and observations, the scientists tend to repair them diligently rather than to build another ones like the ants. We can see it everywhere - for example in article about solving of lithium problem. It did work so from medieval times, once the scientists got their first money for horoscopes developed with using of geocentric model.

Mar 14, 2015
Better stated, it was one second before 3/14/15 9:46:54 when I began this "irrational" action

Mar 14, 2015
Rygg clearly needs to experiment with some LSD or DMT, that'll put the truth by him.

Mar 14, 2015
Errata: 3/14/15 9:26:54

Dammit

Mar 14, 2015
first great scientists were religious
The first great scientists lived in a time when unbelievers were executed, or at least shunned and excommunicated. If you wanted to work and remain living where you were you had to profess a belief in god.

How many times has this obvious FACT been pointed out to you ryggy? Why do you continue to ignore it? Do you do this with all the obvious FACTS you don't like?

Not very scientific. But then your book requires such self-deception yes?
In fact faith in the Creator is not in conflict with science
Faith is belief despite evidence. Science is based on evidence. No science happens WITHOUT evidence.

Meaning that, as there is no evidence for your god, science cannot conclude that he exists.

Further, science has conclusively proven that the events and people described in your book are fiction.

No, science and religion at not compatible. They are diametrically opposed. Science will one day destroy religion. YOUR religion.

Mar 14, 2015
The Newsweek article of the physician in a coma experiencing something not of this world was discussed by Carl Sagan in Cosmos
My senile old grandfather used to see people walking around his house and so nailed all his windows shut. They were not of this world either.

The brain when damaged or deprived of resources can produce all sorts of very convincing illusions, none of which are of this world.

Sagan was an agnostic. When discussing unsolved mysteries he assumed they had wholly physical explanations.

Mar 14, 2015
Science is fact.

Religion is fantasy.

Mar 14, 2015
The issue is not Sagan's agnosticism.
The issue is how Sagan portrayed a modern, objective scientists who experienced travel to Vega to speak with an alien, and only had subjective data to back it up.

This could be what the father of quantum mechanics, Max Planck meant when humans are the ultimate mystery.

Mar 14, 2015
Kind of hard to find controversy on something you know nothing about....only 6% of american scientists are republican.....

Mar 14, 2015
In his book 'The Dragons of Eden' Sagan wrote.....there are as many proofs that god's exists, as there are that it doesn't.....but he stood up firmly against the idea of the religious god.....just like Spinoza.

Mar 14, 2015
WG should love this it (if?) it works.

You're right, Rygg, I do. Altho, I think we're not really aware of all the unintended
consequences - yet...
It is just one step in the process to turn humans into God.

Face it, evolution appears to be dragging us into something else. Could be something better, could be something worse.
BUT - If you are afraid of that, you just showed mistrust in your god...
Tut, tut, tut... he/she won't appreciate that...

Mar 14, 2015
Kind of hard to find controversy on something you know nothing about....only 6% of american scientists are republican.....

Interesting observation. It does beg the question -
Not scientist because republican? or not republican because a scientist....?

Mar 14, 2015
If you are afraid of that,


I am not afraid.

Why does WG have faith humans will become gods? Why not unicorns or squid? WG has faith science WILL reveal ALL. Reminds me of a religion.

Kind of hard to find controversy on something you know nothing about....only 6% of american scientists are republican.....


Sooo?

The majority in MA are 'unenrolled' and more and more are doing the same as the Republican party becomes more like a socialist party.

As Hayek pointed out, 'intellectuals' need a state to sell their 'knowledge' to. For the past few decades, it has been the democrats who have been the most the most socialistic, redistributing wealth to the 'intellectual'. Too bad the 'intellectual' is too stupid to understand that someday the state will run out of wealth to plunder.

Mar 14, 2015
"Engineers tend to view themselves as much less liberal and slightly more conservative than the general public, according to a recent survey of over 1,200 readers of MACHINE DESIGN and Electronic Design magazines. The same survey also found that engineers say they are more likely to be Republican (42.1%) or Independent (33.7%) voters, as opposed to Democrats (14.5%). And although over a third of the engineers think Republicans represent the best interests of the engineering community better than Democrats, a majority of engineers (48.1%) believe neither party is really on the side of engineers."
http://machinedes...ngineers

Engineering is not applied science as humans have been engineering long before anyone conceived of science.

Mar 14, 2015
" Too bad the 'intellectual' is too stupid to understand that someday the state will run out of wealth to plunder."
--------------------------------------

Did you fool yourself with that one? Look around and find out the world is not only run but owned by the 0.1%. They own the governments, having cheated fair and square with bribes, inundations of money, propaganda, and brute force.

Looks like they got to you.

Mar 14, 2015
I love it when Ryg invokes Star Trek because he invariably fails to realize it is set in a socialist utopia.

Mar 14, 2015
humans are the ultimate mystery
-And as they are wholly physical phenomena we can in theory resolve anything that is currently mysterious about them. Which means we should be able to create models of them which are indistinguishable from the real thing.
engineering is not applied science
So? People have been practicing science ever since they became human. Trial and error, cause and effect, test and improve, these are all variations of the scientific method and it is how all life operates.

Religion was invented to get people to abandon this process and to accept irrational direction of others. After all, if you can get them to accept the trinity and life after death, they will believe just about anything you tell them. They will gladly surrender repro rights, martyr themselves, sacrifice their children, etc.

The beauty is, they will accept these promises without any proof whatsoever. We call this domestication. The dog does not ask why he jumps through the hoop.

Mar 14, 2015
Ecklund, the buffoon.

Mar 14, 2015
Ecklund is regular as clockwork. Her idea is that by trying to show that people can maintain two conflicting ideas at the same time, and that somehow means they are not in conflict. Unfortunately the US populace do not agree, so she has to rig the statistics.

This is what biologist Coyne, who is concerned about religious attempts to block science that conflict with religion, said last time:

"Elaine Ecklund's incessant discussion of the compatibility of science and religion (funded, of course, by the John Templeton Foundation), and her frequent spinning of the data to emphasize that comity—even when the data don't really show it—are getting very tiresome. I've posted about this often before, but the distortions just keeps on coming. That's because the Templeton money also keeps on coming."

[tbctd]

Mar 14, 2015
The freighted epithet evangelical is unfortunate. Religious, or faithful, or even Christian would have been better.

No, it would not. They are not the same thing by any stretch.

Mar 14, 2015
[ctd]

"And indeed, the latest Gallup poll shows that 46% of Americans think humans were created ex nihilo by God within the last 10,000 years. Another 32% believe that God guided the evolutionary process ("theistic evolution"), and only 15% accept the scientific view of unguided and purely naturalistic evolution. Doesn't this show that, when the rubber meets the road (that is, when science and faith conflict), that science loses out? That's supported by an 1996 Time Magazine poll showing that if science conflicted with one's religious beliefs, 64% of Americans—nearly two-thirds—would reject the science and hold onto their false dogma.

[tbcdt]

Mar 14, 2015
[ctd]

But Ecklund has Good News: her survey shows that Americans don't see much conflict ... I criticized the results of that study here, and pointed out that other data, including some of Ecklund's own, that aren't so hopeful. ... Finally, these data, from Ecklund's own survey, put the lie to her claim that science and religion are compatible: Nearly 60 percent of evangelical Protestants and 38 percent of all people surveyed believe "scientists should be open to considering miracles in their theories or explanations.""

"The real conflict—the one that will remain so long as religion pretends to find truth—is between rationality and superstition. It is a conflict between using faith to discern what is real as opposed to using reason and observation of the universe. Ecklund can take polls until she's blue in the face, but she'll never turn religion into a way to find truth or to help science find truth. And so the incompatibility remains."

[tbctd]

Mar 14, 2015
[ctd]

[ https://whyevolut...patible/ ]

I recommend the rest of the article. It is a good read and completely reveals Ecklund's shtick.

It is a good thing the Enlightenment happened, so science could develop out of the ashes of the religious Dark Ages. Abrahamism set European society back 2 000 years, skewering the scientific and democratic beginnings of the Greeks. But now we can leave that idiocy behind, and grapple with reality sans magic and theocracy.

Mar 14, 2015
Gkam,
When did the last witch hangings, the last Inquisitions, take place? 300 + years ago? And I think you have Christians being burned alive by Romans confused in your small mind.

Only your ignorance allows you to pretend that Christian violence ended centuries ago. Anyone who grew up in the U.S. south in the sixties like I did knows that it didn't. Anyone who lives in Uganda today knows that it didn't.

Mar 14, 2015
he religious Dark Ages


When was this, now?

The Dark Ages were not caused by any religion. In fact, if not for monks in Ireland and many other places, much knowledge would be lost after the fall of Rome.
Rome fell not because of religion, but lack of morality, hubris and socialism.
Immorality, hubris and socialism... sounds like the Western world today.

Mar 14, 2015
Rygg's statement -
Why does WG have faith humans will become gods? Why not unicorns or squid?

My statement -
"Face it, evolution appears to be dragging us into something else. Could be something better, could be something worse. "

Where, exactly, is the faith about "becoming a god" impression coming from??
Well-informed human, maybe...

WG has faith science WILL reveal ALL. Reminds me of a religion.

Faith and confidence are two entirely different things.
Science can and will deliver "the goods". Just as long as it's not intentionally manipulated by fearful individuals.
I am not afraid.

Okay.
NOT.
You are arguing from a position of fear (you always do) that someone is gonna com and take away everything (that you never really owned, in the first place...)
If all your stuff is required to establish your mark in history as someone who counted for something and therefore your place in a heaven, then you are VERY afraid...


Mar 14, 2015
It is a good thing the Enlightenment happened, so science could develop out of the ashes of the religious Dark Ages. Abrahamism set European society back 2 000 years, skewering the scientific and democratic beginnings of the Greeks. But now we can leave that idiocy behind, and grapple with reality sans magic and theocracy.

Man, Torbjorn, you are good...:-)
You will forever live in my 5 zone...;-)

Mar 14, 2015
confidence are two entirely different things.
Science can and will deliver "the goods".


Science has been promising fusion for decades.

Where, exactly, is the faith about "becoming a god" impression coming from??

You said that with science, you will KNOW EVERYTHING.

hat someone is gonna com and take away everything


It is happening now, everyday where the state is taking peoples lives and property.

Abrahamism set European society back 2 000 years

So that's why the Euros want to exterminate Jews?

But if not for Christian monks and Christian crusaders, the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans would never have reached Europe.


Mar 14, 2015
The Romans that invade Europe and Britain were pagan.
The natives were all pagan.
Rome was destroyed by pagans.
It was Christians than began to pick up form the ashes of Rome and fought off the Muslim invasions.
Christian monks in Ireland and many other remote places copied and preserved documents.

What were the pagan monks doing in Ireland or Britain or Scandinavia?

Mar 14, 2015
"Art historian and critic Kenneth Clark wrote, "It is hard to believe that for quite a long time — almost a hundred years — western Christianity survived by clinging to places like Skellig Michael, rising seven hundred feet out of the sea." Skellig Michael is a rocky island located off the southwestern coast of Ireland. It was one of the outposts of early Irish Christians, who in the 5th and 6th centuries rescued European civilization."
"This took place in a time when the old order and power of the Roman Empire had completely disintegrated and when illiterate, pagan, barbaric hordes, who were devoid of understanding the Greco-Roman heritage, were rearranging Europe. While Greece lay in ruins and Rome was being pillaged and plundered, the best of their accomplishments were preserved only in books."
http://chalcedon....ization/

Mar 14, 2015
Why do you need a Cosmic Daddy?

Show him to me.

Mar 14, 2015
"Two things were done primarily by the Irish during the 5th and 6th centuries. First, they carefully copied and preserved the books that fell into their hands. Latin literature would have been lost without the Irish; furthermore, as Cahill points out, "there would have perished in the west not only literacy but all the habits of mind that encourage thought." Second, they established monasteries all over Europe that were devoted to preaching, teaching, and ministering to the local populations. These two activities point out the way for Christians to take dominion over the future."
http://chalcedon....ization/

Where were the pagan scientists and scholars in Europe in the 'dark ages'?

Mar 14, 2015
That does not prove the Cosmic Daddy.

Mar 14, 2015
Rome fell not because of religion, but lack of morality, hubris and socialism.

No, Rome fell BECAUSE of "morality and hubris" dishonestly dispensed...

Mar 14, 2015
Christian monks in Ireland and many other remote places copied and preserved documents.

Did they? Or did they maybe re-interpret them?

Mar 14, 2015
hat someone is gonna com and take away everything


It is happening now, everyday where the state is taking peoples lives and property.


you just proved my point. Thanks.

Mar 14, 2015
hat someone is gonna com and take away everything


It is happening now, everyday where the state is taking peoples lives and property.


you just proved my point. Thanks.


A police officer in MO was forced out of his life, his profession, by the POTUS and his staff, for doing his job.


Mar 14, 2015
The Euro's must be really mad they are paying to defend Christians.

"EU Parliament Resolves to Defend Christians, Other Minorities from ISIS"
http://www.breitb...om-isis/

Mar 14, 2015
hat someone is gonna com and take away everything


It is happening now, everyday where the state is taking peoples lives and property.


you just proved my point. Thanks.


And then, of course, on the US southern border, the US govt is allowing criminal gangs to run wild.
And the US govt is encouraging the invasion of the US by just about anyone who is not a US citizen relocating them to cities that don't have the money to pay for them, and, bringing in diseases like TB that had been nearly eradicated.
So we have every day, the US govt encouraging illegal aliens to destroy the lives of US citizens with crime and working without law.

Mar 14, 2015
hat someone is gonna com and take away everything


It is happening now, everyday where the state is taking peoples lives and property.


you just proved my point. Thanks.


A police officer in MO was forced out of his life, his profession, by the POTUS and his staff, for doing his job.

Probably for doing what he THOUGHT was his job... Because he assumed an assigned authority position meant absolution for his actions.... without having to actually be responsible for it...

Mar 15, 2015
Science and religion are not in conflict.

The first great scientists were religious.

The conflict is from those who have chosen science as their religion and have faith they can use science to explain EVERYTHING.

Where in your mind have you ever met a scientist who thinks that he can explain everything. If you believe that, then you haven't a clue what science is. You may may as well criticize Unicorns for their racial bias.

Science is all about testing and verifying evidence, and using that evidence to create a model that describes reality. And the key difference between science and religion is that religion tends to be rigid, whereas science tends to go where ever the evidence leads. Religion is slow to change when reality contradicts its beliefs, whereas science is required to change when that happens. Religious people tend to believe that when reality contradicts their belief, that it is reality which is the lie.

Mar 15, 2015
hat someone is gonna com and take away everything


It is happening now, everyday where the state is taking peoples lives and property.


you just proved my point. Thanks.


A police officer in MO was forced out of his life, his profession, by the POTUS and his staff, for doing his job.


You really should seek help.

Mar 15, 2015
If you believe that, then you haven't a clue what science is.


Me: The conflict is from those who have chosen science as their religion and have faith they can use science to explain EVERYTHING.

WG: Interesting thing is - we will have that ability someday.

So then WG does not know what science is, according to Hal.

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

Probably for doing what he THOUGHT was his job


The USAG office said he was doing his job yet perpetuated lies that are risking hundreds of lives.

Mar 15, 2015
A police officer in MO was forced out of his life, his profession, by the POTUS and his staff, for doing his job.

People get forced out of their lives and professions by any variety of things...
(often enough, because of other people doing THEIR jobs...)
Not always right, not always wrong. Just a by-product of "natural selection"...

Mar 15, 2015
Just a by-product of "natural selection"...


An oppressive, deceitful (I know this is redundant) socialist state is 'natural selection'?

Mar 15, 2015
Sorry, Ryggy, you still have to pay your taxes for the roads you drive on.

Go away and naturally-select yourself.

Mar 15, 2015
Just a by-product of "natural selection"...


An oppressive, deceitful (I know this is redundant) socialist state is 'natural selection'?

No, it's a subjective perception...


Mar 15, 2015
Just a by-product of "natural selection"...


An oppressive, deceitful (I know this is redundant) socialist state is 'natural selection'?

No, it's a subjective perception...



No, it's a science based observation.

Mar 15, 2015
@ Stumpy.

It looks like PMs are no longer available.

I obtained a copy of my DD214. What box did you want to know about?

Mar 15, 2015
if not for monks in Ireland and many other places, much knowledge would be lost after the fall of Rome
-So why'd they keep it hidden for all those centuries? Was it because it was heresy?

Xians burned plenty of books back then. Perhaps the most famous was the library at alexandria.

"Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in AD 391. The temples of Alexandria were closed by Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in AD 391. The historian Socrates of Constantinople describes that all pagan temples in Alexandria were destroyed, including the Serapeum. Since the Serapeum housed a part of the Great Library, some scholars believe that the remains of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed at this time."

-And much of the knowledge you refer to was kept in the muslim world at this time, and was returned to europe from there AFTER the church lost the power to restrict it.
http://en.wikiped...lden_Age

Mar 15, 2015
Socialism in action:

"German newspapers reported in triumph that Germany was beginning to purge itself of the alien and decadent corrupters of the German spirit, while newspapers and magazines abroad, from as far away as China and Japan, responded in surprise and shock. Even then, some knowledgeable journalists recalled the prediction of the poet Heinrich Heine, who had said a century earlier: "Where one burns books, one will soon burn people.""
http://motlc.wies...b=395007

Mar 15, 2015
People get forced out of their lives and professions by any variety of things...


Like a US 'liberal' member of Congress demanding climate scientists who don't toe the party line report their funding sources to Congress?

"An investigation by Democratic lawmakers into the sources of funding for scientists who challenge details of the greater global warming narrative has already forced one scientist to call it quits.

University of Colorado climate scientist Dr. Roger Pielke, Jr. has been targeted by Arizona Democratic Rep. Raul Grijalva, the ranking liberal on the House Natural Resources Committee, for his research challenging the claim that global warming is making weather more extreme."
http://dailycalle...warming/

Mar 15, 2015
They were not socialists, but Fascists.

BTW, show me one libertarian government.

Tell us why.

Mar 15, 2015
Natural selection?

"although Krugman frequently bashes Republicans for being "anti-science," this column is the latest example of Krugman's own rejection of science – the science of economics."

http://www.forbes...ience/4/

Mar 15, 2015
Economics is not a science. It is just another kind of religion, and economists are theologians. All the economists have Absolute Truth, and they all disagree.

If you want to understand economics, throw away those silly diagrams you choose to fool yourselves, and take classes in psychology. That will tell you the cost of tulips in Holland.

Economics is not a science.

Mar 15, 2015
"
Where were the pagan scientists and scholars in Europe in the 'dark ages'?

Suppressed by the likes of you.


Since there were only pagans at the time, they must have been oppressed by other pagans, or they did not exist.

Mar 15, 2015
Socialism in action:

"German newspapers reported in triumph that Germany was beginning to purge itself of the alien and decadent corrupters of the German spirit, while newspapers and magazines abroad, from as far away as China and Japan, responded in surprise and shock. Even then, some knowledgeable journalists recalled the prediction of the poet Heinrich Heine, who had said a century earlier: "Where one burns books, one will soon burn people.""
http://motlc.wies...b=395007


-Yeah they burned books just like the pope. And the grand inquisitor. And they both burned heretics.

Mar 15, 2015
Economics is not a science.

Economics as studied by most people is not a science -- I agree to that extent.

But there are schools out there that actually do controlled experiments. Back when I was in college, the University of Chicago, and Caltech were doing that. I particpated in a few, including one that was testing the effects of insider trading (generally speaking, the particpants didn't know in advance the full nature of the experiments, and were rewarded financially based on their performance in a game). I'm sorry, but if you are actually testing theories with controlled experiments, then yes, you are doing science.

That said, those two universities were in the VAST minority -- not many Universities were actually doing real science, or were doing bad/faulty science.. I'm just pointing out that just because it may not usually be treated as a science, that doesn't mean that it can't be a science.

Mar 15, 2015
You were doing controlled experiments on the psychology of the participants. What determines value? It is subjective, hence the reference to the Great Tulip Craze which shows the basis of economics, . . perceived value, subject to manipulation.

Mar 15, 2015
Haldurson, my point is our decisions are not always, or even usually, rational. You cannot base a science on irrationality and have any kind of quantification, hence no predictability.

Mar 15, 2015
Economics is not a science


Of course it is.

Is ecology a science?

Human economics is no different than natural ecology and is really a subset as ecology influences economics.

The 'random' factor is the participants definition of value.

And we are back to the same problem 'modern' science has, human perception.

Just as Sagan's heroine in Contact had no external evidence she traveled and spoke to an alien, or the physician who was partly brain dead for a week yet described traveling outside his body, economics depends upon how the individual perceives value.

'Modern' science has no method to address the sample size of one for each experiment.

Mar 15, 2015
"Praxeology is the scientific study of human action, which is purposeful behavior. A human acts whenever he uses means to achieve an end that he or she subjectively values. Human action is thus teleological or intentional; a person acts for a reason. "
"Praxeology starts from the undeniable axiom that human beings exist and act, and then logically deduces implications of this fact. These deduced propositions are true a priori; there is no need to test them in the way that a physicist might test a proposed "law" of Nature. "
http://wiki.mises...axeology

Under socialism, the state attempts to control human action for its reason.

Mar 15, 2015
"It was tragic day when economics, the queen of social sciences adopted the methods associated with the natural sciences: empiricism and positivism. In the sweep of economic thought, this change occurred-not coincidentally-about the same time that intellectuals and
politicians came to believe in the efficacy of government planning. Despite their failures, both doctrines remain godless faiths of our age."
"If economists are to free themselves from the failed assumptions that they can precisely predict the future and, thus, that the state can plan the economy better than the
market, they will have to revisit more fundamental methodological errors. "
http://mises.org/...n-method

Not just economists should free themselves from failed assumptions.
Climate scientists should do the same as predicting climate is quite similar to economics.
Is it a coincidence climate science is now a subset of politics?

Mar 15, 2015
Not always right, not always wrong. Just a by-product of "natural selection"...


" Currently under civil forfeiture, they can take your money with only an accusation not even a charge or conviction—and you know what she did in New York recently? She confiscated over $100 million. They did pass a reform several years ago that once the paperwork is filed, and there's a certain period of time, then it starts the judicial process [of whether you'd charged and eventually convicted or cleared of a crime].

To avoid that, she would take the money but never file the paperwork. The money just sat in limbo and people couldn't even begin the trial to get their money back—it just sat there. What they do then is they threaten the people and say "we'll give you half of it back if you'll absolve of us of any blame.""
http://www.breitb...ernment/

Mar 15, 2015
"But he said that most of the hostility towards Christians came not from those of other religions, but from atheists determined to exclude religion from public life.

"I have never found a single Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist who was offended by someone wishing them a "Happy Christmas".

"In fact, the main hostility towards religious believers comes from a very small minority of bigoted atheists who seek to banish all religious belief from public life completely. "

http://www.breitb...ination/

How many of these bigoted atheists in UK are speaking out against Islam?

Maybe if they did the Muslim rapes in Sheffield and Rotherham would not have been tolerated by the authorities.

"Police Cover-up of Child Sex Abuse in Sheffield 'Bigger Than Rotherham'"
http://www.breitb...therham/

Mar 15, 2015
My god, Ryggy, you have gone nuts.

I think your anti-guvmunt nonsense got to you.

Mar 15, 2015
Haldurson, my point is our decisions are not always, or even usually, rational. You cannot base a science on irrationality and have any kind of quantification, hence no predictability.

Actually, this shows a complete misunderstanding of science and statistics. The goal is NOT to predict the actions of individuals. The goal is to model the effect of the actions of many individuals.

Have you ever studied Thermodynamics? Thermodynamics makes absolutely no predictions regarding how any particular atom or molecule will behave. It's about modeling the effect of the the behavior of those molecules. If you have a container of some inert gas, and you heat the bottom of that container, thermodynamics makes no predictions about any particular molecule in that gas. But it does say what is most likely to happen to that bottle as a whole.

Mar 15, 2015
So, why do economists disagree about what will happen, let alone why?

It is not science, it is the analysis of decision-making, which is psychological. It does not matter what you pretend to model, you are modeling usually-impulsive behavior at times, and manipulated behavior most of the time.

Are you aware of the tulip event to which I referred?

Mar 16, 2015
Thermodynamics makes absolutely no predictions regarding how any particular atom or molecule will behave.


But each atom is believed to follow the same physical laws.

How well does statistical mechanics work if each atom can choose how to react?

Mar 16, 2015
Oh those tolerant Euros....

"For half a century, memories of the Holocaust inoculated the Continent against overt anti-Semitism. That period has ended—the recent fatal attacks in Paris and Copenhagen are merely the latest in a mounting tide. Today, right-wing fascist strains of Jew-hatred are merging with a new threat from radicalized Islamists, confronting Europe with a crisis, and its Jews with an agonizing choice."
http://www.theatl.../386279/

Why aren't the Euro atheists who attack Christianity and the Jews attacking Islam? Islam and fascism/socialism are simpatico.

Mar 16, 2015
The population of Europe is in the 100s of millions, why do people let their world view be distorted by stories of such a small number of people? It's because the media in general need to sell a story and they do that by appealing to one of our strongest emotions, fear.

I think economics is an immature science at best, its formulae can't even 'see' the environment yet.

Mar 16, 2015
why do people let their world view be distorted by stories of such a small number of people?


So it's acceptable to single out and murder one or tens or hundreds or thousands of people out of a 100 million for their beliefs?
"And The King answers and says to them, 'Amen, I say to you, as much as you have done to one of these my little brothers, you have done that to me.'"

The violation of the rights of one threaten the rights of all.

economics is an immature science at best,

The way the socialists practice economics it's not science at all. It's wishful thinking.

Mar 16, 2015
And now the Kristians are defending the racist scum in Ferguson? Very jesus-like, indeed!

Mar 16, 2015
I agree, spirituality and science aren't in conflict. Science cannot disprove the existence of God or a higher power just as one's faith cannot detract from the findings of science. Science and religion both have texts that are questionable at best and they both have nuts and malcontents among their members. We just have to take what does work from both and leave the rest behind.

Mar 16, 2015
"But he said that most of the hostility towards Christians came not from those of other religions
His life is a very short window into centuries of recorded hostility and violence among all religions. It's what they are designed to do.
but from atheists determined to exclude religion from public life
-Because only atheists are willing to admit the obvious, that theistic gods don't exist. That's why they pose the most danger to religionists.
"I have never found a single Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist who was offended by someone wishing them a "Happy Christmas"
I think he should read the news.

March 15, 2015 - Two suicide bombings outside Christian churches in the eastern city of Lahore have killed at least 15 people and wounded more than 70 others, and a militant gang allied to the outlawed Pakistani Taliban has claimed responsibility."

-But even Irish Catholics in northern Ireland would resent it if a Protestant insulted them in that manner.

Mar 16, 2015
Double post

Mar 16, 2015
Science cannot disprove the existence of God or a higher power
Theism is NOT deism. Xians love to fall back on fuzzy deist arguments when shown that science has proven that the bible stories they love are all false and that their book is a hopeless man-made mangle.

Archeologists have been digging in the Middle East for a century and have found only contrary evidence. And that evidence is abundant and conclusive. And so the god who wrote those stories is either incompetent or a liar. And his promises of wish granting, absolution and immortality cannot be trusted.

But the most likely conclusion is that the stories were the product of human incompetents and liars.

Mar 16, 2015
We will not survive as a species unless we outgrow out pathetic need for an Invisible Companion, a Cosmic Daddy to love us, punish us severely, and tell us we won't die.

But it is all lies we tell ourselves to get through the days and nights, . . . and deep inside, we all know it.

. . . and otto is behind in his replies to the spying thread, hiding here, instead.

Mar 16, 2015
And now the Kristians are defending the racist scum in Ferguson? Very jesus-like, indeed!


You mean the socialist, black racist morons in MO that destroyed their city?

They looted and burned businesses owned by blacks. What morons!

And Christians did help the victims of the black racists:

"A Ferguson bakery owner says she is "so humbly blessed" after receiving nearly $100,000 in online donations to repair her shop that was damaged by looters."
""May God turn this tragedy to a lesson in the power of the love of strangers," wrote one donor. "I stand with you Natalie and pray God's blessing and protect on you!" "
http://www.washin...es-near/

If you want to help:
http://www.gofund...kesnMore

Mar 16, 2015
"Science is the use of observation to guide thinking about the world to understand it. This grand, idealistic, with-a-big-S Science is not broken. However, much of the actual, concrete with-a-small-s science, i.e. the activity of scientists today, is not good Science. Some aspects of how modern science works go against the principles of Science."
"Popper says that rather than trying to find evidence for hypotheses, we should actively seek to find evidence against them. Yet in science today, scientists are incentivized not to do this. "
"Popper says we must reject hypotheses if they're inconsistent with the evidence. But for this to work, evidence contrary to hypotheses has to be published."
"Popper says that hypotheses should make predictions, and then the evidence should be collected to test those predictions. But in science today, hypotheses are often formed after the results of the experiment are known but before publication (post-hoc storytelling.)"
Discover Mag.

Mar 16, 2015
Science cannot disprove the existence of God or a higher power
Theism is NOT deism. Xians love to fall back on fuzzy deist arguments when shown that science has proven that the bible stories they love are all false and that their book is a hopeless man-made mangle.

Archeologists have been digging in the Middle East for a century and have found only contrary evidence. And that evidence is abundant and conclusive. And so the god who wrote those stories is either incompetent or a liar. And his promises of wish granting, absolution and immortality cannot be trusted.

But the most likely conclusion is that the stories were the product of human incompetents and liars.


Your first mistake was to assume that I'm Christian and believe in their version of God. I am not. The rest of your post is a fantastic example of what malcontents might post when they are attempting to "win" this argument.

Mar 16, 2015
"As the Justice Department's report highlights, Ferguson, like many other jurisdictions and even the federal government, has been using police powers more aggressively for minor matters that have more to do with raising money than preserving the public order. The city, DOJ noted, "budgets for sizable increases in municipal fines and fees each year, exhorts police and court staff to deliver those revenue increases, and closely monitors whether those increases are achieved ...."

"This is a sad byproduct of the national trend toward excessive criminalization, egregious use of civil forfeiture and other practices that encourage police to harass citizens like Garner for trifling, victimless offenses. When a police force is used this way, it fosters distrust of law enforcement."
http://www.washin...ner.com/

Mar 16, 2015
your post is a fantastic example of what malcontents might post when they are attempting to "win" this argument
-So youre not xian but youre unwilling to check the facts before condemning my argument?

"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog:
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom... the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

-As this is a SCIENCE site the people here by and large tend to respect EVIDENCE above all.

Mar 16, 2015

behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter


Sounds like what some call God. Planck has faith, he believed this intelligent mind exists, with no data to support his belief.


Mar 16, 2015
So what kind of god writes a book full of stories about people who never existed and events that never happened? And then expects you to believe that he will grant all your wishes and invite you to live with him when you die? And just as important, roast your enemies for you while he is enjoying your company for eternity?

I havent even presented the evidence from geologists who will tell you that the flood never happened, or from geneticists who will tell you that there were no first people, or from cartographers who will tell you that there IS no mt sinai.

And I havent yet presented evidence that the bible itself is obviously man-made.

"that 11 or more books out of the 27 books of the Christian New Testament canon were written as forgeries. In his book, [Bart] Ehrman points out numerous inconsistencies which he finds within the New Testament which appear to support many of his claims..."
http://en.wikiped...i/Forged

-and so much more.

Mar 16, 2015
Sounds like what some call God. Planck has faith, he believed this intelligent mind exists, with no data to support his belief
Again the religionist conflates deism with theism because it is all hes got.

But they are 2 very different things and deism cannot be used to defend the god of any religion. Here is hitchens making the point.
https://www.youtu...YqCtHoIw

-His best argument is at the end.

Mar 16, 2015
So youre not xian but youre unwilling to check the facts before condemning my argument?


I'm simply condemning the smug way in which you suggest that a lack of artifacts to support a Biblical story, written by man as far as I'm concerned, somehow can be interpreted as evidence that God doesn't exist. That's not the product of scientific thinking. It's like saying a dinosaur didn't exist until we discovered its fossils or atoms don't exist since we can't see them. There are mysteries beyond the mysteries that science is still struggling to explain. Even if we knew the extents of this universe, we would then have to ask "What made it?" and "What's outside of it?". People who call themselves followers of science seem oblivious to the amount of Faith they have in our ability to discern the truth. Believing the Big Bang was the start of the universe is Faith, just like believing God created it.

Mar 16, 2015
It's like saying a dinosaur didn't exist until we discovered its fossils or atoms don't exist since we can't see them.


This certainly is not how science began.

People made observations, proposed theories to explain those observations, designed experiments to test the theories and accepted or rejected theories based upon the data, but the original observation hasn't change.
Maybe the observation can be refined with better instrumentation and what was thought to be one thing is something else resulting in new theories to be evaluated.
If an observation from the Bible like fire and brimstone reigning down from the heavens is examined, theories can and have been proposed to reinterpret observations and develop theories to explain the observation.
Some have suggested Mt. Sinai is really in north west Saudi Arabia based upon geographic observations and why won't Turkey allow expeditions to more thoroughly search for the ark?

Stuff existed long before science.

Mar 16, 2015
Excuses for superstition: Sure evidence of uncontrollable fear.

Mar 16, 2015
that a lack of artifacts to support a Biblical story, written by man as far as I'm concerned, somehow can be interpreted as evidence that God doesn't exist. That's not the product of scientific thinking. It's like saying a dinosaur didn't exist until we discovered its fossils
-You didn't read the quote and digest what it meant. Archeologists know where to look and what to look for. Archeologists, many of them very religious and desperate to find any supportive evidence whatsoever, have found ONLY contrary evidence which tells them that not only did the stories not happen, but that other things were going on at the time which would have made them IMPOSSIBLE. And that evidence is overwhelming.

So did god obliterate many millenia of evidence for civilizations, conquests, etc and replace it with totally contrary evidence? Then he is a deceiver of incredible proportion. Did he not know what happened and only made up those stories? Then he is a liar or an incompetent.
Cont>

Mar 16, 2015
Either way he is NOT the impeccable moral paragon he claims to be in the books he wrote. He is an incompetent liar who writes books full of holes.

And the only reason people are able to overlook the obvious, is because of the outrageous lies he promises about wish-granting and retribution and absolution and immortality, promises which his salesmen here on earth never ever have to prove.

They are so compelling that they only need to be told from a position of sufficient authority, and repeated an adequate number of times.

And re my attitude, if more people responded with the appropriate indignity and disgust at the monumental farce that is religion, perhaps it would hasten its demise.

Don't you agree? No? Perhaps if you heard the same sentiment from a movie star
http://youtu.be/7jETVUulGwc


Mar 16, 2015
Ryggs, you've cited an excellent example! i didn't you think you would make it this easy. lets look at what a life of examination and science led mr Planck to state....

"I do not believe in a personal God, let alone a Christian God"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." -Planck

This is the god planck references. this is the faith planck references. keep learning and lose the attitude.


Wow, Spoo... that anybody would downvote that Planck reference is beyond belief. It s perfect.

Mar 17, 2015
So, why do economists disagree about what will happen, let alone why?

Do you think there are no controversies in physics or math??? You are being ridiculous now. Not everyone agreed in the big bang. As more data was gathered, scientists came closer and closer to a consensus. That didn't make physics less of a science. That simply illustrates how science works.

The same could be said for economics. If you have a bad theory, then your data ought to lead you to a better one. and the more data you gather, the more refined your theory will become. You could be starting with a bad model, or you could possibly not have enough data, or your data might be bad. All of that might be true. But that does not make it a non-science.

And btw, not every economist is a scientist. And not every idiot is an economist (or vice versa).

Mar 17, 2015
Not everyone agreed in the big bang. As more data was gathered, scientists came closer and closer to a consensus


That consensus is cracking now too according to physorg.
http://phys.org/n...firstCmt
(Over 500 comments. Oxen are being gored.)

The theory suffers the same problems as do economics and climate change, devising the experiments and collecting the data to confirm the theory.

Mar 17, 2015
Thanks WG. I think so as well. I thoroughly believe that as we continue to spread knowledge and educational tools, we will continue to diminish the impacts of similar oppressions


So you all have faith the universe was created by some intelligence as Planck suggests?

And all you are arguing about is whether it is the Jewish or Christian God that created the universe?

Mar 17, 2015
Economics is easy.

" Countries that have the rule of law (including honest and competent judges), protect private property, have free markets and free trade, have relatively low tax rates and government spending, avoid destructive economic regulation, and have sound money tend to grow at much faster rates than those countries that don't.

For years, many economists, including yours truly, have been doing studies that prove the above assertions and have been writing about these basic factors of success. Yet most Americans, Europeans and many of those in other parts of the world have little understanding of which policies result in successful economies"
http://www.washin...vernmen/

It's the 'scientists' who believe they can violate natural economic laws that result is bad socialist economic predictions.
Same goes for failed climate science predictions.

Mar 17, 2015
ryggs, you are delusional. you have shown a very limited ability to comprehend the matters you discuss. you have contradicted yourself multiple times on this thread. you have misinterpreted quotations to fit your agenda. you are oppressed


So the answer to my questions are 'yes'.

Mar 17, 2015
as i stated, your aptitude leaves a lot to be desired. though im starting to think you are just trolling.

planck stated his belief in a conscious entity outside of our universe. regardless of your comprehension, this vehemently disqualifies the overwhelming majority of religions. including every one mentioned on these boards. i stated we can certainly not rule out intelligent design for this universe. though, we are far too ignorant to rationally believe either way.

your reality will never be more than your perception. but you don't seem to enjoy the bliss, so consider ending the ignorance.


So the answer to my questions is 'yes'.

economists are not scientists


Depends upon the economist.

think of a prediction,


Think of cause and effect.
The less wealth a govt plunders the better for the economy; people can keep more what they earn and make the best choices for their self interest.


Mar 17, 2015
powers and oppression of currency?


You mean govt owned fiat currency or free market money?


Mar 17, 2015
Not everyone agreed in the big bang. As more data was gathered, scientists came closer and closer to a consensus


That consensus is cracking now too according to physorg.
http://phys.org/n...firstCmt
(Over 500 comments. Oxen are being gored.)

The theory suffers the same problems as do economics and climate change, devising the experiments and collecting the data to confirm the theory.


This is exactly why I find it ludicrous that supposedly "science" minded people feel justified in condemning anyone and everyone that doesn't go along with a current consensus. Truth is not a popularity contest.

Mar 17, 2015
Not everyone agreed in the big bang. As more data was gathered, scientists came closer and closer to a consensus


That consensus is cracking now too according to physorg.
http://phys.org/n...firstCmt
(Over 500 comments. Oxen are being gored.)

The theory suffers the same problems as do economics and climate change, devising the experiments and collecting the data to confirm the theory.


This is exactly why I find it ludicrous that supposedly "science" minded people feel justified in condemning anyone and everyone that doesn't go along with a current consensus. Truth is not a popularity contest.

Does a scientist lose some scientist points if he acknowledges the limits of theories?

Mar 17, 2015
"the party that ignores economic science the most is the party of the left. Take the minimum wage law. Economists differ on whether they support the law. But there is one thing they do not differ on. No reputable economist thinks there is free lunch. If the minimum wage makes workers better off, someone must be worse off. If there is a benefit, there must be a cost."
"Economic is the science of incentives. Yet most of the delegates in the national Democratic Convention don't believe in incentives. They believe if a price is too high (think housing rents), the government can push it down and nothing bad will happen. They believe if a price is too low (think wages), government can push it up and nothing bad will happened. They believe that a plan formed by people at the top will work (think Obamacare) even if everyone at the bottom has a self-interest in defeating it.

This is science denial in spades."
http://www.indepe...?id=6325

Mar 17, 2015
Why do so many 'liberal' states what the state to kill them?

"French parliament passes 'deep sleep' bill for end of life"https://ca.news.y...ess.html

" Almost one in 20 people in northern Belgium died using euthanasia in 2013, more than doubling the numbers in six years, a study released Tuesday showed."
http://www.nytime...ia-.html

Mar 17, 2015
I do not like lies, because robs the future of humanity
@renTROLL the LIAR
then why do you repeatedly get caught in spreading lies here on PO?
if you do not like lies, and science is based upon empirical evidence and proof, then the fact that you are arguing against science as well as promoting religion over science proves that you are a delusional liar without a conscience and that you have simply posted ANOTHER lie with the above quote
@ Stumpy
It looks like PMs are no longer available
I obtained a copy of my DD214. What box did you want to know about?
@rygg
WTF?!?
PM has been down a LONG time
& why are you posting about this now?

send me a copy on http://www.sciforums.com
my profile is Truck Captain Stumpy

if you can't link it in the message then let me know and i will get you a temp e-mail addy for the drop

Mar 18, 2015
No, I won't send a copy of my DD214 to an a$$ like Stumpy.

Mar 18, 2015
Stump likes accuses others of lying.
He accused me of lying about my military record.
He said to prove it provide some entry from some box number.
I ask for what entry from what box and he wants me to send him all my personal information.
No.
Not to a jerk like Stump or to anyone on this board.
Because a few years ago, some who called himself Skeptical Heretic thought he knew who I was and where I live and made personal threats.
I know that is a common tactic when one is losing the argument.

Mar 18, 2015
Does a scientist lose some scientist points if he acknowledges the limits of theories?


They gain them in my book... humility (the acknowledgement that we don't know as much as we THINK we do) and a mind that can think outside of the box are the fertile grounds from which real discoveries are made.

Mar 18, 2015
Does a scientist lose some scientist points if he acknowledges the limits of theories?


They gain them in my book... humility (the acknowledgement that we don't know as much as we THINK we do) and a mind that can think outside of the box are the fertile grounds from which real discoveries are made.

Agree. That is why progress has slowed lately.

Mar 18, 2015
What label?

In any scientific field, precise terms must be used for properly describing observations.
Is this what you mean by 'label'?

If you refer to scientific progress, there is some literature showing that there are too few publications reporting negative results.

As noted by someone else earlier, Popper's science is one of falsification. Yet few journals highlight those results.

Mar 18, 2015
Interestingly, if you take a second to review this comment thread, you'll see that nearly every comment is either written by ryggesogn2 or in response to something he/she has written. There are similar religious people who pick fights with those who are more science-literate on every article related to space exploration or astronomy. You eventually just have to do what I do: hit the "ignore user" button.

Mar 18, 2015
Interestingly, if you take a second to review this comment thread, you'll see that nearly every comment is either written by ryggesogn2 or in response to something he/she has written. There are similar religious people who pick fights with those who are more science-literate on every article related to space exploration or astronomy. You eventually just have to do what I do: hit the "ignore user" button.

Sorry, Alex, but that removes the reason many come here for - entertainment...
If everyone thought the same way, why - we'd all be a bunch of self contained, self replicating robots walking aro...
whoa....

Mar 18, 2015
pick fights


It's the anti-religion 'scientists' who are are picking fights with articles like this.

I challenge the the anti-religion 'scientists' to defend their position.

When all I get in return is invective, I know they cannot.

Mar 18, 2015
Why should I feel insulted?

You have a choice, invective or rational reply.

When invective is chosen, I know you have no rational reply.

Mar 18, 2015
Interestingly, if you take a second to review this comment thread, you'll see that nearly every comment is either written by ryggesogn2 or in response to something he/she has written. There are similar religious people who pick fights with those who are more science-literate on every article related to space exploration or astronomy. You eventually just have to do what I do: hit the "ignore user" button.


That's funny!

Mar 18, 2015
Does a scientist lose some scientist points if he acknowledges the limits of theories?


They gain them in my book... humility (the acknowledgement that we don't know as much as we THINK we do) and a mind that can think outside of the box are the fertile grounds from which real discoveries are made.


Also fertile grounds for illicit profit...

Mar 18, 2015
Does a scientist lose some scientist points if he acknowledges the limits of theories?


They gain them in my book... humility (the acknowledgement that we don't know as much as we THINK we do) and a mind that can think outside of the box are the fertile grounds from which real discoveries are made.


Also fertile grounds for illicit profit...


Al Gore led the way.

Mar 18, 2015
Does a scientist lose some scientist points if he acknowledges the limits of theories?


They gain them in my book... humility (the acknowledgement that we don't know as much as we THINK we do) and a mind that can think outside of the box are the fertile grounds from which real discoveries are made.


Also fertile grounds for illicit profit...


As long as we flawed humans are involved in it, there will always be those who put their self-interest before truth. I suspect this may be one reason we see so much "tweaking" in science. http://phys.org/n...firstCmt

Mar 18, 2015
there will always be those who put their self-interest before truth


In a free market, self interest leads to truth.

When science is funded with plundered wealth, there are few opportunities for negative feedback allowing 'businesses' like Solyndra to profit from that plundered wealth.
I don't blame Solyndra as much as the AGWites and their govt agents for abusing their authority.

Mar 19, 2015
there will always be those who put their self-interest before truth


In a free market, self interest leads to truth.

What a fool.

Mar 19, 2015
there will always be those who put their self-interest before truth


In a free market, self interest leads to truth.

What a fool.


Invective, again. What a surprise, not.


Mar 19, 2015
there will always be those who put their self-interest before truth


In a free market, self interest leads to truth.

What a fool.


Pick your favorite fallacy:

http://fee.org/fr...rational

I have heard a few provided by some here.

Mar 19, 2015
Stump likes accuses others of lying
@RygTROLL
no, we PROVED you were lying
NO ONE in the military would be confused or be unable to answer the simple questions we asked
He accused me of lying about my military record.
He said to prove it provide some entry from some box number
then provide that info... it is still historically in the thread!
go get the thread and quote it here: then provide the data
and i didn't accuse you of lying about your record, i said you were lying about being in the service because you couldn't answer SIMPLE questions that are common knowledge, even for an idiot butterbar
and the "common tactic" is not to get your personal info (you are a TROLL- a loser- who cares?)
it is used to get you to PROVE YOUR COMMENTS
something which you STILL HAVE NOT DONE

so again, it is NOT an accusation
it is PROOF that you are a liar
because you STILL cannot prove yourself or your conjecture except to say "i said"

Mar 20, 2015
Now I have a copy of my DD214 to respond to Stump and now he refuses to accept the proof.

it is still historically in the thread!


I'm not going to search back months. If you want data from a certain box, what box?
You don't remember?

I guess you can't handle the truth.


Mar 28, 2015
" Almost one in 20 people in northern Belgium died using euthanasia in 2013, more than doubling the numbers in six years, a study released Tuesday showed."
http://www.nytime...ia-.html

These people exert their the right to decide when to die when their time has come.
Respect that.

I would respect that if the govt didn't sanction others to kill them.

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