Climate sensitivity to CO2 more limited than extreme projections: research

A new study suggests that the rate of global warming from doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide may be less than the most dire estimates of some previous studies – and, in fact, may be less severe than projected by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report in 2007.

Authors of the study, which was funded by the National Science Foundation and published online this week in the journal Science, say that is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have multiple serious impacts.

However, the most Draconian projections of temperature increases from the doubling of CO2 are unlikely.

"Many previous climate sensitivity studies have looked at the past only from 1850 through today, and not fully integrated paleoclimate date, especially on a global scale," said Andreas Schmittner, an Oregon State University researcher and lead author on the Science article. "When you reconstruct sea and land surface temperatures from the peak of the last Ice Age 21,000 years ago – which is referred to as the Last Glacial Maximum – and compare it with climate model simulations of that period, you get a much different picture.

"If these paleoclimatic constraints apply to the future, as predicted by our model, the results imply less probability of extreme climatic change than previously thought," Schmittner added.

Scientists have struggled for years trying to quantify "climate sensitivity" – which is how the Earth will respond to projected increases of . The 2007 IPCC report estimated that the air near the surface of the Earth would warm on average by 2 to 4.5 degrees (Celsius) with a doubling of atmospheric CO2 from pre-industrial standards. The mean, or "expected value" increase in the IPCC was 3.0 degrees; most climate model studies use the doubling of CO2 as a basic index.

Some previous studies have claimed the impacts could be much more severe – as much as 10 degrees or higher with a doubling of CO2 – although these projections come with an acknowledged low probability. Studies based on data going back only to 1850 are affected by large uncertainties in the effects of dust and other small particles in the air that reflect sunlight and can influence clouds, known as "aerosol forcing," or by the absorption of heat by the oceans, the researchers say.

To lower the degree of uncertainty, Schmittner and his colleagues used a climate model with more data and found that there are constraints that preclude very high levels of climate sensitivity.

The researchers compiled land and ocean surface temperature reconstructions from the Last Glacial Maximum and created a global map of those temperatures. During this time, atmospheric CO2 was about a third less than before the Industrial Revolution, and levels of methane and nitrous oxide were much lower. Because much of the northern latitudes were covered in ice and snow, sea levels were lower, the climate was drier (less precipitation), and there was more dust in the air.

All these factor, which contributed to cooling the Earth's surface, were included in their climate model simulations.

The new data changed the assessment of in many ways, said Schmittner, an associate professor in OSU's College of Earth, Ocean, and Atmospheric Sciences. The researchers' reconstruction of temperatures has greater spatial coverage and showed less cooling during the Ice Age than most previous studies.

High sensitivity climate models – more than 6 degrees – suggest that the low levels of atmospheric CO2 during the Last Glacial Maximum would result in a "runaway effect" that would have left the Earth completely ice-covered.

"Clearly, that didn't happen," Schmittner said. "Though the Earth then was covered by much more ice and snow than it is today, the ice sheets didn't extend beyond latitudes of about 40 degrees, and the tropics and subtropics were largely ice-free – except at high altitudes. These high-sensitivity models overestimate cooling."

On the other hand, models with low climate sensitivity – less than 1.3 degrees – underestimate the cooling almost everywhere at the Last Glacial Maximum, the researchers say. The closest match, with a much lower degree of uncertainty than most other studies, suggests is about 2.4 degrees.

However, uncertainty levels may be underestimated because the model simulations did not take into account uncertainties arising from how cloud changes reflect sunlight, Schmittner said.

Reconstructing sea and land surface temperatures from 21,000 years ago is a complex task involving the examination of ices cores, bore holes, fossils of marine and terrestrial organisms, seafloor sediments and other factors. Sediment cores, for example, contain different biological assemblages found in different temperature regimes and can be used to infer past temperatures based on analogs in modern ocean conditions.

"When we first looked at the paleoclimatic data, I was struck by the small cooling of the ocean," Schmittner said. "On average, the ocean was only about two degrees (Celsius) cooler than it is today, yet the planet was completely different – huge ice sheets over North America and northern Europe, more sea ice and snow, different vegetation, lower sea levels and more dust in the air.

"It shows that even very small changes in the ocean's surface temperature can have an enormous impact elsewhere, particularly over land areas at mid- to high-latitudes," he added.

Schmittner said continued unabated fossil fuel use could lead to similar warming of the sea surface as reconstruction shows happened between the Last and today.

"Hence, drastic changes over land can be expected," he said. "However, our study implies that we still have time to prevent that from happening, if we make a concerted effort to change course soon."


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Carbon cycling was much smaller during last ice age than in today's climate: study

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Nov 24, 2011
Thanks for this information.

It now appears that the AGW fable sprouted from seeds of fear - planted on 6 Aug 1945 and later nourished in a message from USSR's Khrushchev to USA's President Kennedy on 24 Oct 1962:

http://www.ibibli...jfk.html

The main issue now is finding a way to undo the damage inflicted on society from 4-5 decades of fear-based leadership:

http://dl.dropbox...ots.pdf:

http://chiefio.wo...nt-25900

Today I am grateful a Power greater than scared world leaders controls the universe!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Oliver K. Manuel
http://myprofile....anuelo09

Nov 24, 2011
It's a smart tactic to throttle back the hysterical claims of AGW as the 'collective genius' of society are not that gullible as they initially presumed.

Do any of the models take into consideration technological advancements wrt energy source and efficiency that are not currently existent, or that are inevitable, even non-linear wrt time?

Nov 24, 2011
Isn't "settled science" wonderful?

Nov 24, 2011
Above comment authors might want to give the article a second (or first?) reading. The article clearly states...

"The closest match, with a much lower degree of uncertainty than most other studies, suggests climate sensitivity is about 2.4 degrees."

...in paragraph 14. For the mathematically challenged, this mean the climate, which has warmed 0.8°C, will warm another 0.4°C with no further CO increase. If we carry on to 540ppm CO, as seems entirely likely, that would mean another 1.6°C.

Nov 24, 2011
The researchers seem to have left out three most relevant factors which may have applied then but not now to ameliorate the effects of atmospheric CO2.

One: After Ice Ages, the melting waters over continents would produce many long lived shallow seas that soak up atmospheric CO2 in vast quantities and lock it up in vast BIOTA (algae/plankton) and FOSSIL forms (oil/gas/oil-shales)s.

Two: Human mass-deforestation did not apply then, so the plant kingdom was unfettered in its capacity to also quickly absorb and lock up carbon in vast land biota and coal/peat beds not 'harvested as now by humans.

Three: Open ocean biota was not subject to OVERFISHING on industrial scales like NOW, hence oceans would lock up carbon in BIOTA which FILLED the paleo-oceans to bursting then, and also accumulated in vast oceanic sediments which plate techtonics put deep under continental shelves for millennia more.

Therefore paleo-climate comparisons may be irrelevant in the present situation.

Cheers all.

Nov 24, 2011
Above comment authors might want to give the article a second (or first?) reading. The article clearly states...


or not, perhaps we're as smart or smarter than allotrope. That kind of "i'm obviously smarter than anyone else" attitude is one of the reasons we end up with major problems throughout society.

Nov 24, 2011
"Isn't "settled science" wonderful?" - KozTard

It is. And because of that scientists have gone on to estimate how much warming will be had.

The best estimates are 3'C with an additional 3'C to follow due to climate inertia.

6'C means the desertification of most of the earth's land surface.


Spot on, mate.

And on the way to that stage there will be vastly increased rates/severity/size of storm system events and out-of-season 'intrusions' of frosts/winds/floods which will SERIOUSLY and ever-more INCESSANTLY AFFECT food and transport and general economic/insurance and give us no respite the longer this warming trend is allowed to proceed by the deniers and 'bunny-in-the-headlights' commentators supporting their stupid denial until the car runs over them, when it will be too late to take PRO-active action.

The time for clear pro-active thinking/action is NOW.

Keep up the good work, mate....ignorant wreckers must not win THIS time....there is too much at stake for humanity.

Nov 24, 2011
The long slow back down begins, no extreme weather, no warming just billions for big Green industry.

Nov 24, 2011
@Reality Check:

From the IPCC report:
"There is low confidence in any observed long-term (i.e., 40 years or more) increases in tropical cyclone activity (i.e., intensity, frequency, duration), after accounting for past changes in observing capabilities.... There is medium confidence that some regions of the world have experienced more intense and longer droughts ... There is limited to medium evidence available to assess climate-driven observed changes in the magnitude and frequency of floods at regional scales because the available instrumental records of floods at gauge stations are limited in space and time, and because of confounding effects of changes in land use and engineering. Furthermore, there is low agreement in this evidence, and thus overall low confidence at the global scale regarding even the sign of these changes."

http://ipcc-wg2.g..._opt.pdf

Nov 24, 2011
@Kozyrai & @Noumenon Please excuse the rudeness of my good friend Vendicar but
he actually believes the scientific method is
"The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating a
hypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best way
possible." (Vendicar Decarian)
I informed him that the method requires that you test your hypothesis
by trying to disprove it and now he says I'm an "Idiot, retard, moron
, ignoramus"
The poor fellow doesn't realize his definition is actually the
definition for confirmation bias. Apologies again but he really
believes he must only accept research that verifies his hypothesis so
if you mention contary evidence he will call you terrible names. It's a
shame but he really is a lovely guy and is lots of fun.
He even thinks that science is a body though I explained it was a actually a method for acquiring knowledge rather than the knowledge itself. For him, suggesting the knowledge needs adjusting is an attack on science. Sorry

Nov 24, 2011
The long slow back down begins, no extreme weather, no warming just billions for big Green industry.

Might help if you looked through the correct end of that telescope of yours.


Nov 24, 2011

Spot on, mate.

And on the way to that stage there will be vastly increased rates/severity/size of storm system events and out-of-season 'intrusions' of frosts/winds/floods which will SERIOUSLY and ever-more INCESSANTLY AFFECT food and transport and general economic/insurance and give us no respite the longer this warming trend is allowed to proceed by the deniers and 'bunny-in-the-headlights' commentators supporting their stupid denial until the car runs over them, when it will be too late to take PRO-active action.

The time for clear pro-active thinking/action is NOW.

Keep up the good work, mate....ignorant wreckers must not win THIS time....there is too much at stake for human


"The polar bears will be fine." - Freeman Dyson (well known Wrecker).

Nov 24, 2011

"The science is settled."


Science is never settled, that's the point. Recently a neutrino was clocked moving faster than the speed of light. The validity of a hypothesis is not dependent on the validity of alternate hypotheses. Yet again you've used a classic straw man. Did you not read the article above? Saying the science is settled is a lie no matter how many times you tell it and is yet another example of your confirmation bias. Next time you actually attend class ask your science teacher , or is he a moron too?

Nov 24, 2011
"The polar bears will be fine." - Freeman Dyson (well known Wrecker).

Argumentum ad verecundiam

Nov 24, 2011
@Kozyrai & @Noumenon Please excuse the rudeness of my good friend Vendicar but
he actually believes the scientific method is
"The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating a
hypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best way
possible." (Vendicar Decarian)
I informed him that the method requires that you test your hypothesis
by trying to disprove it and now he says I'm an "Idiot, retard, moron
, ignoramus"
The poor fellow doesn't realize his definition is actually the
definition for confirmation bias. Apologies again but he really
believes he must only accept research that verifies his hypothesis so
if you mention contary evidence he will call you terrible names. It's a
shame but he really is a lovely guy and is lots of fun.

What are you blathering about? What contrary evidence do you put forward?

Nov 24, 2011
What contrary evidence do you put forward?


This historical review of the climate scandal contains links to many experimental observations and quantitative analysis that falsify AGW dogma on the origin, composition, and source of energy in the Sun that heats the Earth and sustains life in a state of continuous evolution - responding to Earth's continuously changing climate.

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

Nov 24, 2011


"The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating a
hypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best way
possible." (Vendicar Decarian)"

@Parsec My hypothesis is that my good friend Vendicar, and many in the IPCC. confuse the scientific method with confirmation bias.
http://en.wikiped...ion_bias
His quote from above confirms this.(He said this yesterday.) though today he seems to be backpedaling. Activists start with an agenda which they try to prove by cherry picking evidence (Ie they talk about "The Cause"). Good science is objective. It requires you try to disprove your hypothesis by testing it (ie you don't try to verify it you try to deverify it) Calling people terrible names has led to my second Hypothesis
"That Vendicar and other name callers are actually shills for big oil who are trying to drive innocent readers into the skeptic camp with bullying and bad behavior"
I haven't worked out how to test this yet though.

Dug
Nov 25, 2011
Reality Check - There's a reason they were left out - the scenarios aren't as you imagine. Here are the problems with your concerns -
One: After Ice Ages, the melting waters over continents...

Problem - Oil and gas are primarily from extinction events and were deposited much further back than the last or even the last several ice ages. Melting ice can actually dissolve carbonates releasing CO2.

Two: Human mass-deforestation did not apply then,'harvested...

There have been huge rather extensive mass de-forestations, not only by ice ages (probably the most enduring), but also by fires from volcanoes and asteroid strikes that made Tunguska look like mild.

Three: Open ocean biota was not subject to OVERFISHING -

Problem - Overfishing is species specific - but doesn't actually change the standing biomass of the oceans or their relative carbon reservoirs - which are rapidly filled by non-fished species. Overfishing is increasing lower trophic level activities - algae blooms for example

Nov 25, 2011
There is nothing that can be done. I'm onto other physics.

If I'm still around during the tropical years... I might migrate to a one of the countries that make up the lion... one of them has the 2nd best standard of the OECD when it comes to caring for their children, compared to my countries shameful standard ... the second lowest.

we have children suffering from 3rd world diseases,

anyway... I'm doing other physics.

As for GW in a climate that doesn't want it... that's pointless.

Nov 25, 2011
.

Hi Dug.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

In "One", the point was the whole vast continents were covered with meltwater that would quickly absorb whatever CO2 from ANY source, and store that in the latest sedimentary layers that would become the latest gas/oil-forming strata LATER.

In "Two", the point was the forests would have recovered all over the globe within a couple hundred years after any such NATURAL mass deforestation you mentioned....whereas the forests NOW are NOT being allowed to recover over the whole globe because of human food/housing etc expansion with increasing population.

In "Three", the point as that overfishing/pollution has produced dead zones where CO2/Methane is being produced. Also, large areas of the open ocean are virtually 'sterile' because they lack nutrients which PELAGIC FISHLIFE being industrailly harvested no longer 'fertilises in passing through' with their excrement that allowed algae etc to flourish and soak up CO2 all year round.

Cheers.

Nov 25, 2011
.

Hi StarGazer2011.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

If you lived in Australia over the past few years you would be more 'in tune' to what is happening to the weather patterns and crops and transportation/infrastructure etc. because of severe and persistent unusual/unseasonal events 'coming together' more often and giving little respite to farming and other industries.

When one adds that to all the unusual patterns/events all over the globe in recent times, one cannot fail to grasp what we are in for if the warming and hence more turbulent mixing of atmospheric system interactions from cool poles to hotter low latitude air masses laden with much more moisture and the widespread and severe 'fronts' caused when these cool-warm air masses collide in ever more unusual places which where previously spared the 'storm patterns' that we see even there now.

See it for yourself in the news reports. More unusual patterns/storms etc.

Cheers.
.

Nov 25, 2011
quote-"Hence, drastic changes over land can be expected," he said. "However, our study implies that we still have time to prevent that from happening, if we make a concerted effort to change course soon."

An extremely misleading statement considering the warming of the earth is not 100% man made.

Nov 25, 2011
or not, perhaps we're as smart or smarter than allotrope...


Entirely possible, many (many!) are. The comment wasn't speaking to intelligence so much as an apparent lack of reading comprehension and a willingness to reinforce a belief structure with information that refutes it. Which, I'll grant, is not a hallmark of intelligence.

Nov 25, 2011
@Kozyrai & @Noumenon Please excuse the rudeness of my good friend Vendicar but he actually believes the scientific method is "The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating a hypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best way possible." (Vendicar Decarian)

I informed him that the method requires that you test your hypothesis by trying to disprove it and now he says I'm an "Idiot, retard, moron , ignoramus"


Yes, also, making specific future quantitative predictions and then verifying those predictions, is the only way to gauge the precision of scientific understanding. Retroactive verifications of models is not a valid substitute.

Really the issue is not the core science, it is the precision of knowledge claimed. which imo borders on scientific fraud.

Nov 25, 2011
Retroactive verifications of models is not a valid substitute.

A truly valid model must be predictive and retrodictive.

Nov 25, 2011
"These ridiculous 'Doomsday' scenarios" - Tard of Tards

Tard boy didn't even read the article - which reports on research that the global temperature rise will be less than anticipated.

Proving yet again that Tard boys are, as Tard Boys do.


More ad hominem attacks from a 14 year old mentality, aka "Scott Nudds" ancient internet troll. You have nerve calling others 'tard' after making the following statements...

"12 more American terrorists were murdered in Iraq this weekend. More will soon follow them into death. The more dead americans in Iraq the better." - Vendicar_Decarian

"Three more americans died in Iraq today. Three more reasons to celebrate..." - Vendicar_Decarian

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" - Vendicar_Decarian

Nov 25, 2011
Unfortunately for VendiTard... People like him encourage me to make the following actions... Stock up on 60 watt lightbulbs, Overfill my coolant, keep my damaged catalytic converter strictly for the sound it makes, give Hybrid vehicle drivers the bird and last but not least, donate to the NRA.

How does the "Trololololololololol" feel in what used to be an intellectual forum before you hit the "sign up" button.

Nov 25, 2011
Oh, it's true and there are others, but I won't post them, a simple google search will verify. He's been a commie wakco environMentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-conservative, anti-America, Canadian troll since dial-up and Netscape days.

Other aliases, Scott Douglas, Scott Nudds, VD Scotty, and VD Nudds.

Nov 25, 2011
I suspect the nuclear fallout from an Iranian nuclear attack on the US will land in Canada.

Nov 25, 2011
Oh dear. Are these threads never moderated?

Nov 25, 2011
You fail to note that I predicted every aspect of your national downfall and disgrace decades ago. Why omit that NumenTard?


Because there is no "downfall". More hysteria from a troll.

I'm Candian also,.. but in any case, the point was that your comments tend to be way over the top and quit irrational. Radicalism is usually due to intellectual immaturity.

The current economic troubles of the USA will pass as they have in the past,.. but they were due fundamentally to liberalism and big government.

What is certain is that the USA and free-market capitalism has brought far more good to the world than socialism and communism ever in principal could do.

Nov 25, 2011
2: Fallout will probably blow over the ocean since the detonation will occur on the U.S. East Coast or Texas. - Vendicar_Decarian


Your profile says your from texas(?)

Nov 25, 2011
A truly valid model must be predictive and retrodictive.

Which it should be, unless the system modeled is chaotic in which chase a retrodictive models does not make the the system predictive. Weather is pretty chaotic.

Having said that, I wouldn't rejoice if I was a denier; So far what I've read is that with these corrections, the temperatures rise only by half as much as some the most extreme temps. That is not going to stop the environmental damages done by such huge and rapid swings in climate. 10C vs 5C.

Still the CO2 emissions continue in an exponential increase; something I don't think this model takes into account. So It's still the same predictions; Not much of a future. Correct me If I'm wrong.


Nov 25, 2011
2: Fallout will probably blow over the ocean since the detonation will occur on the U.S. East Coast or Texas. - Vendicar_Decarian


Your profile says your from texas(?)


VD has much to verify before trusting.


Nov 25, 2011
What is certain is that America is dead as a nation primarily because of anti-government, anti-progress, anti-science, pro business traitors in the Republican party and Libertarian/Randite ideologies.

As an American liberal (The majority by the way), I feel that. But its true in just about every conservative run Government in the world and the conservative economies are the ones with all of the debt issues. The liberal run governments are doing just fine.

Good old 'W' really got us into a mess.

Just my opinion and observation by the way.

Nov 25, 2011
"The premise of catastrophe produces the conclusion that the political and economic underpinnings of Western civilization must be discarded. Governments must take control of economies. Capitalism must give way. All decisions must be made by our scientific and political elite, for only they can save us from doom."
"the conclusion, the proposition that Western civilization must change. And it is, literally, a nonfalsifiable proposition: If global warming and climate change help lead to it, then hurray for global warming and climate change. If not, well, then, theyll find something else."
"Skepticism, the prime scientific virtue, still lives, in other words. If nothing else, Ivar Giaever may yet be able to rejoin the American Physical Society."
http://www.weekly...l?page=3

Nov 25, 2011
Majority?

"Solid Liberals

14% OF ADULT POPULATION /16% OF REGISTERED VOTERS"
"Libertarians

9% OF ADULT POPULATION /10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS"
"Main Street Republicans

11% OF ADULT POPULATION /14% OF REGISTERED VOTERS"
"Staunch Conservatives

9% OF ADULT POPULATION /11% OF REGISTERED VOTERS"

http://www.people...rofiles/

Nov 25, 2011
Skepticism in the scientific method is without debate R2. The human mind is so powerful that occasionally we believe fallacy over reality to such an extent that the world revolves around that fallacy. The mind is extremely powerful, and it very easy to argue against fact based on that.

I think there is enough evidence to declare Co2 pollutant and that human released greenhouse gasses are causing many weather abnormalities and extremes.



Nov 25, 2011
Lies and statistics are interesting. But voting conservative is just self serving and ignorant. Pretty damning evidence of the human condition you posted @R2.

Nov 25, 2011
enough evidence to declare Co2 pollutant

Hold you breathe, you are polluting.

Hottie, where is the data to support your theory that liberals are in the majority. I am skeptical.

Conservatives, who support liberty and opportunity for everyone, are self-serving?

BTW, if anything Pew leans to the liberal side.

Nov 25, 2011
Conservatives, who support liberty and opportunity for everyone, are self-serving?


When? Opps, I misread your question. Where?

Lol. Skeptical.. I'm skeptical too, but it doesn't mean I'm not correct.


Nov 25, 2011
Conservatives, who support liberty and opportunity for everyone, are self-serving?
Conservatives like Hitler?

Because there is no "downfall". More hysteria from a troll.
I guess you consider more hungry in USA than all of China a raging success? That the government comes in dead last #49 on social programs like education and health while spending more money on military buildup (for WW3?) than the rest of the world COMBINED.

Nov 25, 2011
Conservatives governments are losers. That is one most obvious explanations to reject the right wings across the world. We believe in humanity and the human potential. Conservatives just want to make a buck and usually are sucky people. Be a liberal for a month. You might like your self for a change.

Nov 25, 2011
Lets do an experiment according to R2. Hold your breath... wait... Opps your a liberal! Your not making CO2. Lol.

Stupid debate point.


Nov 25, 2011
@Noumenon Yes, also, making specific future quantitative predictions and then verifying those predictions, is the only way to gauge the precision of scientific understanding. Retroactive verifications of models is not a valid substitute.
Yes cosmology and paleontology are nothing but lies!

Nov 25, 2011
Conservatives like Hitler?

He was a socialist.
Conservatives governments are losers

'Liberal', aka socialist, govts are bankrupt.
Stupid debate point.

Hottie claimed a gas he exhales is a pollutant. What does he plan to do to not pollute?

Nov 25, 2011
Conservatives, who support liberty and opportunity for everyone, are self-serving?

What you really mean is the liberty and opportunity for the strong to take from the weak, which is very self-serving.

Nov 25, 2011
An example of another 'liberal' failure, caused by the failures of 'liberals' in the EU:
"Whether in government or finance, he seemed to always believe thered be a bailout. He destroyed MF Global by betting that the European Union wouldnt let some of its troubled governments default because they were, of course, too big to fail. In Jersey, he simply ignored one of the worst pension crises in the country because the idea that wed let hundreds of thousands of government workers lose their pensions is also unthinkable.

In the worlds where Corzine operates, the next bailout is always just around the corner if you are big enough and daring enough.
"
Corzine was safer back in New Jersey politics, where he could use other peoples money liberally and engage in shady accounting practices without worrying about the kind of dire consequences he may now face. Nobodys going to occupy Trenton.

Read more: http://www.nypost...li3dAJfS

Nov 25, 2011
"America's tax-and-spend Democrats ignore at their peril Sunday's political object lesson from Spain, where 22.6 percent unemployment and other economic ills led voters to overwhelmingly reject Socialists in favor of the conservative Popular Party."
"But economic disaster on his Socialist predecessor's watch helped make the difference this time.

Mr. Rajoy's task is daunting. Besides Spain's staggering joblessness, he must deal with borrowing costs at their highest level since 1997, investors' fears and budget deficits -- all amid the larger eurozone debt crisis.

With the situation demanding austerity measures beyond his predecessor's obviously insufficient cuts in spending and state payrolls, Rajoy's resounding electoral mandate will be a major asset. The Spanish people repudiated the Socialists' approach -- loud and clear."
http://www.pittsb...454.html

Nov 25, 2011
Apparently it has missed the attention of R2 that "conservatives" engage in deficit spending when in power, and oppose it when not.

Hypocrites.

Nov 25, 2011
'Liberals' support spending everyone's money to redistribute wealth.

What conservative supports borrowing money to redistribute wealth to political supportears and the welfare state?


Nov 26, 2011
'Liberals' support spending everyone's money to redistribute wealth.

Conservatives support spending other peoples money so as to concentrate wealth unto themselves.

Nov 26, 2011
Name a candidate that you would support would not have been tarred and feathered just 20 years ago. Extremism is where the conservatives have gone. You want no government? That is what you have; and it pisses this voter off. How much do you support the welfare state? Welfare for the rich is what you support. And unless we are so lucky, you are not rich R2.


Nov 26, 2011
@Vendie, unfortunately as you can see, the US has one party that are absolutist with money to buy astro-turfers and turd blossoms.
Unfortunately these astro-turd-blossoms are all over the world.

@R2, I don't know why you complain. The taxes under the Democrats have usually been less than the repubs and we did more with less. The purpose of government, in the end, is to improve the human condition. If not then it should be a government of suspect.

Nov 26, 2011
Today's "conservatives" pretend that the "To Promote the General Welfare" clause is not present in the Preamble to the US Constitution.

Nov 26, 2011
...the most Draconian projections of temperature increases from the doubling of CO2 are unlikely.
This has been obvious for years, and yet they're just now getting a clue?

And, I wonder, do they take into account all the carbon which is sequestered in landfills, cemeteries, construction, and the like?

Nov 26, 2011
All of which, Pirouette, very much favors the wealthy at the expense of others.

If you truly want a level playing field, throw in a ban on the inter-generational passing of wealth.

Nov 26, 2011
Strange that we still think Earth's climate is not effected by other variables from within the solar system and galaxy. There are probably many hidden variables that we do not yet understand. Very exciting future, I'm most pleased to see climate science evolving as it has. It is sad there is so much politics involved, but it will evolve no matter. =)

Nov 26, 2011
Interesting, Pirouette, that you fail to indict the likes of the Koch Bros. and their ilk, the very ones who are trying to kill the "free education" that you reference and replace it with private, for profit schools.

Your brand of "conservatism" is quickly beginning to sound like nothing more than "I want to be one of the 1%."

Despite the many claims to the contrary, the wealthy did NOT become wealthy on their own merits and efforts alone.


Nov 26, 2011
Liberals create wealth while conservatives do everything they can to hoard that same wealth. This creates the business cycle.

Nov 26, 2011
Liberals create wealth while conservatives do everything they can to hoard that same wealth. This creates the business cycle.

How do 'liberals' create wealth by stealing it?
The more wealth private individuals can keep for themselves to invest and spend, the more wealth is created. 'Liberals' support taking wealth from those who create it and redistributing that wealth to those who won't.

Nov 26, 2011
trying to kill the "free education" that you reference and replace it with private, for profit schools.

Sweden has 'for profit' schools which are funded by vouchers.

People value what they pay for. Is that why few value their 'free' education?

Nov 26, 2011
Liberals create wealth while conservatives do everything they can to hoard that same wealth. This creates the business cycle. - kockevnik


How do 'liberals' create wealth by stealing it?
The more wealth private individuals can keep for themselves to invest and spend, the more wealth is created. 'Liberals' support taking wealth from those who create it and redistributing that wealth to those who won't.


Once people like kockevnik and vendicar makes statements like the above absurdity, I must bail. There is no sense in discussing anything with them because they are absolutely clueless as pointed out by piroutte, and will just say anything.

They are clueless about conservative principals; the power of free-market capitalism and egoistic individualism, in creating the greatest economy and standard of living the world has ever seen.

They cry about the greedy rich and their pockets, but are clueless about the vast scope of fraud in welfare and gov entitlement programs.

Nov 26, 2011
This is carbon dioxide curve, as measured at Hawaii. One doesn't need to be climatic expert for being able to recognize, all anti-warming actions and billions spent in carbon tax so far had a zero net effect. This "strategy" simply doesn't work at all.

http://www.coolan...xide.png

But it illustrates too, the rise of carbon dioxide levels is insensitive to the period of global warming in recent decade, when the global mean temperature didn't increase significantly. Instead of it, the carbon dioxide levels continued to rise in undiminished rate. I don't think, the people are responsible for all this increasing concentration of carbon dioxide. In my theory the Earth itself is heating, being surrounded with cloud of antineutrinos from dark matter, which are accelerating the decay of radioactive elements inside of Earth mantle and oceans and it releases the carbon dioxide dissolved from there.

Nov 26, 2011
What's rather amusing, and is indicative of his ignorance, is that Scott Nudds (Vendicar) thinks that if the USA economy collapses it won't effect Canada. Most of the Canadian population is snuggled up real close to the US border.


Nov 26, 2011
Conservatives support spending other peoples money so as to concentrate wealth unto themselves. - deepsand


This idiotic association of conservatives with the rich, greed, and wall street,... is pure unmitigated intellectual fraud. This is trough feed for young clueless liberal mush heads.

There are plenty of rich liberals that participate in the free-market and wall street.

EVERYONE wants to "concentrate wealth unto themselves", you twit. That desire is a egoistic one and as such is naturally intrinsic to every individual. It is a force that free-market capitalism depends on to function. All other liberal forces are counter & dampen economies.

Everyone ACTS in terms of individualism, egoistic motives, seeking profit and benefit from others, NOT collectivism. The latter is counter to intrinsic nature of man.

The fraud in Welfare, Disability, and Gov Spending, far exceed, by orders of magnitude, that of left's caricature,
"The Rich",.. all due to liberalism.

Nov 26, 2011
If you're not Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains.

Eventually we all have to grow up and face the real world. Except liberal idealist as their world is fantasy, and ignorance and naivete is bliss.

Nov 26, 2011
Everyone ACTS in terms of individualism, egoistic motives, seeking profit and benefit from others, NOT collectivism. The latter is counter to intrinsic nature of man.

Collectivism is the means 'liberals' use to boost their egos and seek profit.
Coercion is the only method left to them to obtain their perfect society. Every attempt at voluntary collectivism by 'liberals' has failed to be accepted by the entire society. Why? As you pointed out, it is contrary to human nature.
The only successful collectivist societies are monasteries. Their members are volunteers with high moral character.

Nov 26, 2011
Conservatism, individualistic egoism, and free market capitalism is more in line with natural laws (e.g evolutionary principals) than ad-hoc liberal social engineering, which is more in line with dogmatism.

As Religion is idealistic, the far left liberal Utopian Society is idealistic.

Nov 26, 2011
I guess you consider more hungry in USA than all of China a raging success? - kockevnik


Mindless non-sense. The poor in the USA have cable, cell phones, air-cond, cars, and hdtv's, while the middle class in China earn $200 per month. Also, China, quit ironically, had to resort to economic Capitalism to survive as a country,... though they are still communist controlled.

That the [US] government comes in dead last on social programs like education and health while spending more money on military buildup


The above facts should have told you that the gov is inept, ..that no matter how much is spent it continues to fail, a conservative point. Why? Because the gov does not have to compete, and there is no one "behind the counter" that makes a profit in gov, so there is zero motive force to improve effectiveness and efficiency. That's why.

The military is the exception, and the primary purpose for the existence of government, and the definition of a country to begin with.

Nov 26, 2011
Conservatives like Hitler? - kockevnik


As I said in another thread wrt to that non-sense, ,...it is not rational to project political affiliation from one era onto that of another. The terms liberalism and conservatism require historical context, as they have relative meanings in different era's and different countries.

Obviously Hitler was all about Government Control and Social Engineering, quit counter to modern American conservatism. Not a matter of opinion.

Your knowledge of politics consists of cartoonish caricatures of conservatives. It is clear that you were violated by left wing propaganda.

Nov 26, 2011
It's funny how they only care about carbon monoxide. Methane is much more of a threat. I do believe the last time all the methane was released from the sea bed (happening again now BTW) was the end permian era where something like 50-90% of all life on earth went extinct.

I'd say that's a doomsday scenario and there is every indication we are right on track.

Nov 26, 2011
The above facts should have told you that the gov is inept, ..that no matter how much is spent it continues to fail,

Like AMTRAK, USPS, GSEs, and now GM and Chrysler.

Nov 26, 2011
,... and public education, the inestimable fraud in welfare and disability programs, Obama care if it doesn't get rejected by the supreme court, etc.

Nov 26, 2011
Foxbot overrun thread

Nov 26, 2011
Foxbot overrun thread


Only to clear the air a little, once and a while. Don't worry, it will soon be back to the regular MSM-bots, , NPR-bots, Huffington Post-bots, and NY Times-bots.

Nov 26, 2011
Foxbot overrun thread


The 'liberals' claim to be 'for the people'. But when more of the people prefer Fox News, the people are 'stupid' or brainwashed and information must be controlled for the sake of 'the people'.

Nov 26, 2011
LOL, I see more cowards sock puppets logged in to rate me ones, as if the ratings mean anything at this site.

ryggesogn3 | gregor2 | CManhole82 | DenseAetherTheory | Pirouline |

Nov 26, 2011
Conservatism, individualistic egoism, and free market capitalism is more in line with natural laws...."

Oh yeah, lets just eat our children. That's a natural law too.

Nov 26, 2011
.

Hi all.

About ideologies discussion per se.

Capitalists treat PROFITS as THEIRS, and 'screw the public/poor' upon whose back/society they made those profits. But when things go sour for the 'markets/businesses', these 'capitalists' suddenly 'believe' in SOCIALISING their LOSSES onto society/poor for BAILOUTS and their GOVT to clean up the 'markets mess'.

"Global Financial Crisis", anyone?

The point is neither EXTREME capitalism nor EXTREME socialism is sustainable.

Only a middle path between extremes is sustainable. It is the intelligent way to go.

Yet extreme ideologies/greed for profit/power still seems to flourish because populace is ignorant of these and is gullible for the cons being perpetrated on them from time to time by one 'extreme gang' or the other.

Humanity has advanced technologically/scientifically, but mass intelligence is still way too low and mass gullibility still way too high to resist crooks and scammers using 'ideology' in lieu of logic.

Cheers.

.

Nov 26, 2011
.

About US/Western Democracies discussion per se.

Of late, despite 9/11 attacks on US by extremists, it is US, NATO and Western Democracies in UN who seem to be real friends of Muslim/Islamic peoples trying to get rid of their tyrants, putting lives and treasure in jeopardy for the sake of those being killed in Libya, etc.

Whereas Russia and China VETO attempts to give these people a say in their own govt.!

China and Russia want to keep the 'status quo' of tyrannies/murderers put in place during the 'cold war' era, while the rest of the world wants to move on from such idiotic ideological madness.

Next time anyone criticises the US et al, perhaps they should look at these OTHER powers which the US et al have to contend with who want to CONTINUE the madness and murder of Muslim/Islamic peoples for their own ends, eh?

US is no 'saint', but compared to Russia/China, it is the BEST HOPE for world sanity in the end. Hence US military/political muscle is justified for now.

Cheers.

.

Nov 26, 2011
...True American Conservatism® is far superior to...
and for this week only buy one and get a second one for only 50%!


Nov 26, 2011
...US is no 'saint', but compared to...Hence US military/political muscle is justified for now.
this has probably said for every empire that has existied throughout the course of human history, and in every case, there was probably quite a few folks that thought differently.

Nov 26, 2011
Nice to see so many FAUX intellects at their keyboards here, rather than hard at work screwing someone so that they can become rich(er.)


Nov 26, 2011
these 'capitalists' suddenly 'believe' in SOCIALISING their LOSSES onto society/poor for BAILOUTS and their GOVT to clean up the 'markets mess'.

These are not capitalists.
However, I can understand those in business that consistently have their hands tied by the state, and when their businesses fail because of the state, they justifiably demand compensation.
Maybe the best solution is to just shrug and stay out businesses the govt heavily regulates. If the govt thinks it can do better, let them.

Nov 26, 2011
Pirouette, got any kids?? I have lots of capital.. sell me one for dinner...

Nov 26, 2011
...US is no 'saint', but compared to...Hence US military/political muscle is justified for now.
this has probably said for every empire that has existied throughout the course of human history, and in every case, there was probably quite a few folks that thought differently.

Name one.
How is the USA an empire again?
However, if you think it is an empire, would you prefer a Russian or Chinese or Persian empire to replace your so called Empire USA?

Nov 26, 2011
Why do 'liberals' even think in terms of empire? Are they projecting their desire to be the emperor?

Nov 26, 2011
"If you're not Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains." - NoumenTard

Poor Numentard. He would rather not remember that the vast majority of Scientists are Liberal.

Why is that Tard Boy?


The "vast majority"? False. Just over half (52%) consider themselves liberal according to the Pew study, within margin of error.

"[I] would rather give control of our government to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University. - William F. Buckley

Nov 26, 2011
lol. That Buckley quote just shows how ignorant that man really was....
no, not ignorant, just plain stupid. He was egrossed by the sound of his own voice.

Nov 26, 2011
You miss the point entirely. Today, there are human beings, capitals all, who sell men women and children into slavery every day of the year. Anything and everything for a buck.. kroner, shilling, etc. What will you do for wealth, Pirouette?
These days, you don't have to be Atilla to conquer, you simply have to have enough money to buy what you want. I want you daughter... How much?

Nov 26, 2011
How is the USA an empire again?

The error here is the use of the word "again."

Had you a reasonably good understanding of geopolitics you would have no need of the question.


Nov 26, 2011
It is now obvious that Pirouette, the HIRELING, fails to understand what a capitalist is.

Small wonder that he and so many others like him are duped by them.

Nov 26, 2011
...US is no 'saint', but compared to...Hence US military/political muscle is justified for now.
this has probably said for every empire that has existied throughout the course of human history, and in every case, there was probably quite a few folks that thought differently.


The point was that in THIS present case the ONLY 'others' trying to maintain the old cold-war tyrants/empires are China and Russia and THEIR puppet states still in existence.

The fact that the Arab Leauge and Turkey and all the Muslim/Islamic pwoples currently under tyrannies are ASKING for outside help to replace their tyrannical govt with more democratic govt.

The US is no 'empire'. Democracies CHOOSE who they will associate with. In this case the affected muslim/islamic peoples suffering tyrannical empire 'leftovers' are the one's who WANT the US, NATO and their democractic UN allies to help THEM.

Hardly an indictment of the US et al, if these people are BEGGING for US etc intervention.

Nov 26, 2011
@deep$hit

ooops...deepsand.

Oops, my ass. But, then, ad hominem is to be expected from a sophist.

I have been a Capitalist all my life and now you say I don't know what a Capitalist is?

I'm saying that, as a hireling, you are not a capitalist. You're a drone, the slave labor that capitalists depend on.

Nov 26, 2011
For those who do not understand that the US is indeed an empire, albeit an accidental one, I recommend a reading of "The Next Decade: Where Weve Been.and Where Were Going" by George Friedman, founder of STRATFOR, an international private intelligence firm and a leading source of geopolitical intelligence.

Nov 26, 2011
If you are so into slavery, then you may want to take a trip to Saudi Arabia or the African countries where slavery in America began when the Arabs kidnapped black Africans and sold them to the white slave traders to bring to America to work on the plantations. Slavery is still happening in Saudi Arabia. You will be happy there.


Right lol. What is your point in even bringing this up?

Hey everyone slavery *WAS NOT* the fault of any white people in the United States. They were just offered too good of a deal by those dastardly Arabs! We can't be held responsible!

Your mind is so diseased. Just give up you pathetic old man.

Nov 26, 2011
How is the USA an empire again?

The error here is the use of the word "again."

Had you a reasonably good understanding of geopolitics you would have no need of the question.


I will rephrase, how is the USA an empire?

Nov 26, 2011

How is the USA an empire again?


Marjon, how isn't it?

It's not like Augustus went around proclaiming the death of the Republic and his ascension to the throne. Augustus' success was in keeping the idea of the Republic alive, even if the state ceased to function as a republic. It was a good 200 years after Augustus death until his successors outright quit pretending the Republic still existed and a good 300 years until is was *officially* abolished.

So just because we have a constitution, rule of law, elections, whatever it is you think that disqualifies the US from being an empire does not.

Trust me; those invested in the state cult, such as yourself, are incapable of realizing when society deviates from its own standards. Such mentalities lead to unchecked nationalism which eventually progresses to fascism, the extreme end of the conservative spectrum.

Nov 26, 2011
A republic is not an empire.
So Frank has no answer.
hose invested in the state cult,

It is the 'progressive'/'liberal'/socialist that is fully invested in state power.
Instead of proposing technical solutions to their fabricated problem, AGWites immediately proposed political solutions that increased the power of govts.
So just because we have a constitution, rule of law, elections,

They have no meaning if the 'liberals' refuse to follow or enforce the laws. How many times has Castro been 'elected'?
Why won't the federal govt enforce its immigration laws and why does it attack US states that attempt to enforce those laws?

Nov 27, 2011
See: "What is Wrong With the UN's IPCC?"

By Professor Ross McKitrick

www.thegwpf.org/i...orms.pdf

Nov 27, 2011
How is the USA an empire again?

The error here is the use of the word "again."

Had you a reasonably good understanding of geopolitics you would have no need of the question.

I will rephrase, how is the USA an empire?

Read the cited book from STRATFOR's founder.

Or, read some of their materials available free on-line to non-subscribers.

An empire is measured, not by the land it holds, but by the power it exerts. And, as the only standing superpower, one geographically isolated from any would be attackers, and the only one with a blue water navy with a global reach, the United States' sphere of power projection is more vast than any nation before.

Nov 27, 2011
Republic is an extremely vague, nearly meaningless term, much like empire. So yes, one can be the other and we are both.

I'm assuming you are restricting empire to mean "territorial empire" which is only one kind. The US would be a "hegemonic empire". The US as the global hegemon is by definition a hegemonic empire. It's not a value judgement. It's not meant as a criticism. You attribute a negative connotation to the word that I am not. I simply mean it as a description of the subject at hand.

As Frank Herbert said, "the mistakes of leaders are amplified by the number of their followers." I would append his wisdom to include the obvious, but omitted opposite. Leaders successes are also amplified by the number of their followers. This is the double edged sword of empire and society in general.

Nov 27, 2011
@RealityCheck. . . .perhaps you and others are not aware, but there are several different types of "Capitalists". I'm a Capitalist and I'm almost sure you are also. I worked for 32 years at my job and EARNED my salary. I was not a loafer or backslider.....
....


I was disparaging 'extremes' (BOTH capitalists and communists).

I too worked hard, but also contributed to as FAIR an Australian society as possible in an imperfect world, in a moderate-centre Australian society/govt. It works better than most other 'extreme' ideologies/systems.

If you live in a country that takes responsibility for promoting 'fair play' and not 'dog eat dog' policies, then you live in a 'moderate-centre' capitalist-socialist country.

The GFC has been responsible for the loss of hardworking 'ordinary citizens' SAVINGS/HOMES. It is the 'extreme' capitalist/conservative profit-at-all-costs types for bringing misery and havoc because their 'markets/greed' was 'unfettered capitalism' at work.

Cheers.

.

Nov 27, 2011
Kinda got extreme in this thread.
So I'll sing ya all a song ..

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world


Nov 27, 2011
There is only one way to deal with the worlds problems, including the possibility of an AGW, and that's a resourced based economy without politics, leaders, police, laws and countries. With the level of technology we have today, we could improve all aspects of our lives, and remove all mindless labor.
Venus Project

Nov 27, 2011
With the level of technology we have today, we could improve all aspects of our lives, and remove all mindless labor
We have not enough of resources to give all people on the world the living standard and job, they expect. As you can see with the discussion with above average qualified people here, even the acceptation of cold fusion is surprisingly tough job.

Nov 27, 2011
"The original progressives of the early 20th century, just like todays seemingly incoherent liberals, were populist and technocratic they argued both for direct democracy and for expert rule. Even as they called for enlarging the scope of the federal government and putting a class of educated specialists in charge of it, they also called for radical democratic reforms of our constitutional system. In the 1912 election, the Progressive-party platform proposed not only the direct election of senators but also the enactment of federal laws by public initiative, and even advocated allowing the public to overturn some court decisions by referendum."
"Thus expert omniscience could not be trusted to check the excesses of popular passion, and public omniscience could not be trusted to check the excesses of expert arrogance. In the view of the framers, there is no omniscience; there is only imperfect humanity. "
http://www.nation...vatism-y

Nov 27, 2011
"the humble assumption of permanent human imperfections and the humble desire for forms that might prevent large mistakes are at the core of the greatest achievements of the modern age: of constitutional democracy, of the free market, of the scientific method. Yet the most ardent champions of liberalism in our politics have too often failed to see the power of such humility, instead articulating a liberalism rooted in utopian ambitions or their mirror image naïve resentments all dressed up as a theory of justice. "
http://www.nation...vin?pg=3

Nov 27, 2011
"Thus the Lefts simultaneous support for government by expert panel and for the unkempt carpers occupying Wall Street is not a contradiction it is a coherent error. And the Rights response should be coherent too. It should be, as for the most part it has been, an unabashed defense of our constitutional system, gridlock and all. "
http://www.nation...vin?pg=4
The 'progressives' posting here are described quite well by this article.
AGW fits into the 'progressive' faith quite well. A technical elite controls the information and advocates for govt 'solutions' by fiat.
Hope:
"A daring idea to fix the economy: try doing less"
http://www.telegr...ess.html

Nov 27, 2011
"One of the most persistent criticisms of the EU is its lack of democratic legitimacy. Its basic institutions are bureaucratic and opaque, with decisions either made by unelected European Commission bureaucrats or negotiated by EU member governments. These outcomes typically are binding on EU members, with no opportunity for independent judgment or meaningful dissent in national legislatures. The only popularly elected EU body, the European Parliament, has minimal power and is widely regarded as inconsequential."
"If democracy can be supplanted easily when big issues are at stake and actual voters are allowed to select governments only for unimportant questions, the vitality and longevity of democracy itself are at issue. "
http://www.washin...deficit/
The EU is the technocrat's wet dream. See how well it is working.

Nov 27, 2011
See: "What is Wrong With the UN's IPCC?"

By Professor Ross McKitrick

http://www.thegwp...orms.pdf

Thank you for this reference. This issue is far too important to our species for continuious debate to be stifled by intellectual bullying and brown-shirt tactics.

Nov 27, 2011
Noumenen, the man who became a mean old man before his time said:
If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains.
Or maybe you just simply chose not to become an utter asshole.

Grow up and rejoin the humn race.

Keep in mind that Oliver is a conservative. He calls himself a curmudgeon to cover up the reality that he is mean viscous old man, at best. Noumenen, do you want to be an asshole too?

Ethelred

Nov 27, 2011
They were just offered too good of a deal by those dastardly Arabs!
Now that you mention it they did do a lot of the enslaving. Indeed the last nation that had legal chattel slavery is Islamic.

We can't be held responsible!
500,000 Americans died to end slavery in the US. We took responsibility even if we didn't want to.

bluehigh
John Lennon was an idiot on many things. He was the sort of idiot that said things like 'what if they gave a war and nobody came?'. Which has got to be one the stupidest phrases anyone came up with outside of religion.

Ethelred

Nov 27, 2011
Noumenen, the man who became a mean old man before his time said:
If you're not Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains.
Or maybe you just simply chose not to become an utter asshole.
Grow up and rejoin the humn race.
[..]Noumenen, do you want to be an asshole too?

Ethelred


!?

The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat, because it's the safest and most emotionally reasonable position. Young people by definition have limited experience in life and so a limited frame of reference in which to draw them out of naiveté, and therefore away from idealism.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference in which to judge the world, and become relatively more conservative.

Nov 27, 2011
cont @ Ethelred,... most people that know little of politics, rely on caricatures, and so default to liberal, because "liberals care about The People" and being of like mind is acceptable without further understanding,... while "mean old republicans" are for "big business and the rich" and carry the further burden of understanding to be accepted.

This is why the vast majority of hollywood actors, music artists, criminals, welfare recipients, union members, rioters, and other smelly groups, tend to be liberal.

If you attempt to link conservative to "mean old man before his time", remember that the majority of conservatives (not me) are religious and give donations to their church who in turn help the needy.

Nov 27, 2011
Amazing amount of GOP thugs posting on this tread. Must be that Oil and Coal companies trying there best to astro-turf the CO2 taxes that are coming there way when the tipping point is reached.

Nov 27, 2011
You can tell a paid for rethuglican astro-turfer when the first line of his post begins with Socialist. Funny part is, they are the american traitors, the destroy the american idea at all cost type people. Morally corrupt.

Nov 27, 2011
The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat, because it's the safest and most emotionally reasonable position. Young people by definition have limited experience in life and so a limited frame of reference in which to draw them out of naiveté, and therefore away from idealism.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference in which to judge the world, and become relatively more conservative.
Georges_Clemenceau: A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.

Young people are intellectually bright, but they lack the life experience. Therefore they tend to adhere on mainstream theories and schematic thinking more, than many elderly physicists, who are willing to study the boundary phenomena like the cold fusion or water clusters.

Nov 27, 2011
If you are so into slavery, then you may want to take a trip to Saudi Arabia or the African countries where slavery in America began when the Arabs kidnapped black Africans and sold them to the white slave traders to bring to America to work on the plantations. Slavery is still happening in Saudi Arabia. You will be happy there.


FrankHerbert(theHeadTroll) says:
Right lol. What is your point in even bringing this up?

Hey everyone slavery *WAS NOT* the fault of any white people in the United States. They were just offered too good of a deal by those dastardly Arabs! We can't be held responsible!

Your mind is so diseased. Just give up you pathetic old man.


FrankHerbert (the Head Troll), as usual, you lack skills in reading comprehension. I NEVER said that white men were not at fault for buying black slaves from the Arabs in Africa and using their slave labor on plantations in America.


LOL, FrankHubris likes to invent racism if it doesn't otherwise exist.

Nov 27, 2011
The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat, because it's the safest and most emotionally reasonable position. Young people by definition have limited experience in life and so a limited frame of reference in which to draw them out of naiveté, and therefore away from idealism.
But let us not forget it's the young people who come up with the most essential and creative concepts. For instance, it was a young Einstein who developed Relativity, and it was young entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates who started the tech industry.

Where would we be without that young naiveté - that willingness to venture out and try the new? We'd still be living in trees is where we'd be.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference in which to judge the world, and become relatively more conservative.
That is, they default to the known and safe - becoming afraid to take chances and get messy. It's quite sad, really.


Nov 27, 2011
The young people can often behave more conservatively, than the old liberals, when the subject requires the violation of established theories instead of facts. And vice-versa: the elderly people aren't always such a conservative, because they don't care about future of their professional carriers so much.

For example, string theorists are young bright physicists, who bravely promoted new theory, but they're behaving rather like conservatives, guarding the purity of classical theories, on which the string theory is based. On the other hand, the elderly physicists are more willing to think in wider context, so they appear as a liberal by now in many aspects. We can even talk about certain inversion of roles of social generations.

Nov 27, 2011
But let us not forget it's the young people who come up with the most essential and creative concepts.
I do agree, but it's relevant just at certain stage of evolution. The elderly people brings the more fundamental findings more often (cold fusion, room temperature superconductivity, antigravity). Why is it so? We can compare the evolution of society to the observation of the water surface. With increasing distance from observer the spreading of surface ripples becomes more and more deterministic. In this stage the young people, who are able to develop reductionistic formal theories have an advantage. But when the distance increases even more, than the spreading of surface ripples becomes affected with underwater again. The elderly people with holistic insights and wider life experience will get an advantage instead under such a situation, because they're able to deduce the new insights from fast growing pile of formal theories in nonformal way. These stages repeat in circles.

Nov 27, 2011
@ubavontuba,

Way out of context, guy.

I never meant to generalize nearly that much, and in fact didn't. Only wrt political naiveté, liberalism, conservatism, and form of government.

Nov 27, 2011
For example, in this recent study the age of Nobelists increases gradually, so that the Einstein's memo that "a person who has not made his great contribution to science before the age of thirty will never do so" is not valid anymore.

http://www.almaz....ers/age/

It's not actually valid at the case, when the new finding requires to combine large amount facts or life experience. In deductive approach the young people have still their advantage in generally higher intelligence.

Nov 27, 2011
The point is not, whether conservatives or liberals have truth. They both have their bits of undeniable truth, which are penetrating mutually.

http://www.aether...rane.gif

It's true, the anthropogenic model of global warming is very schematic and it leads to the socialization of economy. But it's true too, if we wouldn't switch the usage of fossil fuels soon before their price will escalate, we are facing the geopolitical instability, financial crisis or even global nuclear war. The conservative politics cannot account into these risks in the same way, like the liberal politics cannot account into threat of individual freedom and free market.

Your stance in this controversy should remain UNBIASED, or we cannot make any progress in its solution.

Nov 27, 2011
Such mentalities lead to unchecked nationalism which eventually progresses to fascism, the extreme end of the conservative spectrum. - FrankHubris


You're making a politically obsolete association.

Conservatism and liberalism have contextual and relative meanings, wrt era's and countries.

Modern conservatives are counter to big government control, and are for the American constitution which advocates freedom, and are counter to suppression of ideas. Therefore your association is irrational.

Nov 27, 2011
Each civilian domicile will be comprised of 2 to 3 or more families
I'm afraid, we would face the social storms and war conflicts a way sooner. There is wide distribution of wealth between people and at the moment, when the richest part of population will start to suffer with some governmental restrictions, the poorest social layer will suffer with starvation already.

At any case, it's completely unnecessary to judge it, because we all are swimming in the ocean of free energy in form of cold fusion. We should focus to real problems instead of solving these theoretical ones: how to force our governments into wider research and exploitation of cold fusion. If we solve this, then the other problems will disappear automatically, at least for now.

It's as simple as it is. The origin of financial crisis is the incoming oil peak, nothing else.

Nov 27, 2011
The conservative politics cannot account into these risks in the same way, like the liberal politics cannot account into threat of individual freedom and free market.

Your stance in this controversy should remain UNBIASED, or we cannot make any progress in its solution.


I agree. The UN propose only redistribution of wealth and governmental control of energy use. Since a) this is a duck-tape short term solution, and b) is counter to capitalistic economies, it has no chance of being a resounding long term solution, especially as world population continues to grow.

An alternative energy source must be able to compete with oil/coal, in an economically nondestructive way. I would be for a 1% sales tax for a Manhattan'esque project with concentrated effort in developing alternatives (e.g. safe traditional nuclear or fusion) that can compete with oil/coal, ...so that it's in the best interest of the masses to use the alternatives.

Nov 27, 2011
I would be for a 1% sales tax for a Manhattan'esque project

And why you would trust the govt to manage the program?

We have several options to consider now. One is the sealed nuclear reactor from Toshiba and there is a US design the city of Galena, AK is/was investigating to power their city.
These designs would work well on the basements of skyscrapers and other large buildings.
If you trust the nuclear Navy, let them manage these projects and train the operators.

Nov 27, 2011
An alternative energy source must be able to compete with oil/coal, in an economically nondestructive way.

The cold fusion can already do it. But the COP achieved by now (~ 6) is still too low. We do need a further organized research, I mean a serious peer-reviewed research. We are losing time and incredible amount of money with delaying it every day.
One is the sealed nuclear reactor from Toshiba
Yeah and all these thorium molten salt reactors... :-\

I know about all these technologies - but the cold fusion could kick ass all of them without problem. It's completely safe, produces no radioactivity and nuclear waste and it can be scaled down to the microscopic sizes. Every calculator could have its own cold fusion source of energy. No need of wires, batteries and similar energy mediators.

In my opinion the nuclear fission era of civilization is over.

Nov 27, 2011
I would be for a 1% sales tax for a Manhattan'esque project

And why you would trust the govt to manage the program?


Because there is no way to get the private sector to handle something that complex, and supply the funds necessary (The army handled the original Manhattan project),... and one of the core purposes of government is to protect it's citizens AND it's economy.

My first choice would be to convince people that, as oil/coal begin to become more and more scarce, it's cost will increase more and more.

This will then allow alternative markets to complete, in a gradual and natural way.

In others words, through normal technological advances expected in any case in the modern age, the issue will resolve itself. This presumes that the cataclysmic AGW predications are hysterical hype.

Nov 27, 2011
@ubavontuba,

Way out of context, guy.

I never meant to generalize nearly that much, and in fact didn't. Only wrt political naiveté, liberalism, conservatism, and form of government.

The same principles apply. It's the young (and the young at heart) idealists who drive society to experiment with new politcal concepts.


Nov 27, 2011
My first choice would be to convince people that, as oil/coal begin to become more and more scarce, it's cost will increase more and more. This will then allow alternative markets to complete, in a gradual and natural way.
It already happened.

The problem is, the oil price doesn't follow the free market rules, being kept artificially low and it doesn't reflect the state of oil reserves. In particular, the companies mining the oil tend to lie about actual state of oil reserves, as it enables them to increase mining quotas. The increased cost of mining doesn't reflect the final price smoothly, because the increasing portion of oil is simply burned for vapor generation in underground and its consumed at place during drilling and pumping.

The free market economy cannot account to the price of coil, until the coil is mined as easily, as before one hundred years. When the fossil fuels deposit will get depleted, then their price will jump suddenly, but it will be too late.

Nov 27, 2011
Briefly speaking, until the price of fossil fuels respects just the price of mining and not the price of fossil fuel replacement (i.e. the total cost of fossil fuel ownership), then the free market economy can never serve as a reliable feedback of the fossil fuel consumption. After all, this is why the price of oil fluctuates wildly and why the Arabians are so upset with low oil prices.

I've nothing against free market economy, but we shouldn't overestimate its real possibilities. There are many less or more hidden components of real oil price, for example the price of oil wars which is doing the oil pretty expensive resource.

Nov 27, 2011
5) The media will be controlled by government officials and only news FAVORABLE to the gov't will be allowed.


Hi Pirouette. Your 'ideology' runa away with objectivity. Heard of the INTERNET etc? Censorship is futile, and alerts/angers the world. The "Arab Spring" is made possible by the internet despite tyrants/despots trying to 'censor' it.

The government cannot be trusted to manage a research program. They are only good at funding research. . . .not to oversee it's progress.


Another example of ideological 'zeal' running away with you. An Australian govt body called CSIRO used to lead the world (per capita/expenditure) in many fields of research/development for the common good. CSIRO is now way less effective because 'conservative ideology' has made CSIRO merely an 'arm' of the 'market' concentrating on 'profitable' research instead of 'common good' research. Go figure!

Cold war 'leftover' ideologies are behind much of the present troubles/stances. These will pass.


Nov 27, 2011
.we have vast amounts of coal, oil and gas right here in U.S. territory
The USA will need to save these reserves for future use anyway, because the cold fusion cannot replace the fossil carbon consumption in plastic industry. And these deposits aren't so accessible as the Texas oil fields of the 19th century, when oil simply soaked the soil everywhere. The fossil fuel lobby cheats the publics regarding the actual price and availability of fossil fuel resources under hope, it will increase the mining quotas and it will prolong the era of its power. Because the fossil fuel lobby takes no responsibility for the increasing price of social instability and cost of oil wars, which are necessary to maintain the fossil fuel industry.

If the current financial crisis is the result of oil price fluctuation, then the cost of financial crisis should be taken into account of fossil fuel lobby. It's all about the hidden cost of ownership of fossil fuel economy.

Nov 27, 2011
The above may sound like very conspiratorial theory, but its origin is actually very spontaneous and natural in the same way, like the instinctively dismissive stance of mainstream physics community regarding the cold fusion research. Nobody is actually required to organize it, because the resulting stance is simply the sum of the dismissive stances of all individuals involved here.

Nov 27, 2011
Because there is no way to get the private sector to handle something that complex,

The private sector is managing very complex projects now. Wal Mart manages to bring products from all over the world to your neighborhood store at a price you are willing to pay.
But, again, there is no need for your govt project. The technology exists, the research has been done. Get the govt out of the way.

Nov 27, 2011
How about THERMAL energy, in the meantime. All that heat underground going to waste and there for the taking and
The effectiveness of geothermal energy is not so good as it appears, when all consequences are taken into account. The life time of geothermal energy drill is about ten-twelve years (until you're not living at the tectonic zone, like the Icelanders do). After then the drill is cooled and the whole bore must be redrilled somewhere else. The water extracts the salts from underground, so it's corrosive for heat exchangers, it threatens the underwater sources of drinking water and it may even result into geotectonic instability of the whole area. And it's indeed diluted source of energy, which can be used just for heating of houses and communal purposes.

http://www.treehu...and.html

Nov 27, 2011
Oh wait. . . .i forgot that thermal energy would entail digging deep into the mantle. Environmentalist kooks would scream like girls if you move one shovelful of the Earth's surface using a payloader.


Come, come, now you are sounding a little 'hysterical' yourself, eh? There is sustainable and unsustainable progress; There is safe and unsafe activities regarding the environment we all need to be healthy. Tapping the deep hot rocks in 'safe' locations would be WELCOMED by 'alternative energy' proponets, don't you think? It would be nice for all concerned if we ALL stop letting hyperbole and ideology colour our objectivity, eh? Cheers.
.

Nov 27, 2011
But at each level of the oil game, EVERYONE gets their cut of the spoils. That's the natural order of things
Of course - as I pointed out above, it's not result of fossil lobby conspiracy or something similar. And I'm not judging the fossil fuel lobby or mainstream science here at all. I'm just explaining the objective mechanisms, which lead into present situation under hope, the people will learn from it for future. We need to better understand how the human civilization is working before we will attempt to influent its evolution at the global level in organized way. Or we will face just a new kind of problems instead.

Nov 27, 2011
Everyone needs to find a way to cut back on their fossil fuel consumption. It can be done.
Why not but in general I don't believe in the voluntary ability of people to control their consumption, until some external incentives or restrictions aren't in the game. Most of people will simply follow the path of least resistance here. I'm not idealist here not least a bit. And it opens the door for various ideological manipulations and censorship.

Nov 27, 2011
It has no meaning to follow the strategies, the result of which no one can be sure with in this moment. Bu the positive contribution of cold fusion for human civilization is clear for everyone here, I hope. If not, what else could be, after all? I do believe, we can start with its implementation like with least common denominator and after then we can just follow the consequences. The implementation of cold fusion will have far-reaching consequences, not only in the question of the optimal strategy against global warming.

Nov 27, 2011
..convince people that, as oil/coal begin to become more scarce, it's cost will increase. This will then allow alternative markets to complete, in a gradual and natural way.


The problem is, the oil price doesn't follow the free market rules, being kept artificially low and it doesn't reflect the state of oil reserves. [..]

The free market economy cannot account to the price of coil. When the fossil fuels deposit will get depleted, then their price will jump suddenly, but it will be too late.


In the long term it does follow the free market, as oil is a commodity and is traded as such. The price of oil is driven by the market (i.e. futures speculators), which naturally is driven by many things, including projected supply and demand, reserves, production, etc.

I reject the notion that military presence in foreign lands to protect a countries interests, should be accounted as energy cost. It should be and is accounted as defense.

Nov 27, 2011
Modern conservatives are counter to big government control


No they aren't. This is evidenced by the eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative. The line goes "if Bush expanded government he wasn't really a conservative." No true scotsman and all that. It's not that Bush isn't a conservative because he expanded government; it's that Bush is a conservative and being a conservative has nothing to do with the size of government.

Conservatives aren't against "big" government, they are against things they don't want the government to do. They just get sucked into semantics and word games and by the time they end up expressing their opinion they themselves have no idea what they are even talking about. For example "keep your government hands off my Medicare."

With regards to me misquoting Pirouette, he's angry that I quoted him as saying there are "transparent" rather than "SEMI-transparent" animals on Mars. Yes, that was the sticking point in question. lol

Nov 27, 2011
I would be for a 1% sales tax for a Manhattan'esque project with concentrated effort in developing alternatives (e.g. safe traditional nuclear or fusion) that can compete with oil/coal, ...so that it's in the best interest of the masses to use the alternatives.


Oh you support "legal theft" now? Watch out, you are now on Marjon's list of physorg socialists (i.e. everyone but himself).

Nov 27, 2011

Callippo. . .I sincerely hope you're right about cold fusion. If it turns out not to be a feasible source of energy, then we're screwed.


What a simple world you live in. "Oh no, magic technology X that was never going to work doesn't work! We're doomed! Please Steorn, save us!"

Oops. I guess I misquoted you again.

Nov 27, 2011
Modern conservatives are counter to big government control


No they aren't. This is evidenced by the eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative. [...] It's not that Bush isn't a conservative because he expanded government; it's that Bush is a conservative and being a conservative has nothing to do with the size of government.


"Fiscal conservatism is a political term used to describe a fiscal policy that advocates avoiding deficit spending. Fiscal conservatives often consider reduction of overall government spending and national debt as well as ensuring balanced budget of paramount importance. Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and other conservative policies are also often but not necessarily affiliated with fiscal conservatism." - Wiki

This of course results in a limited government. The "eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative", comes from conservatives, so therefore they are the ones defining it.

Nov 27, 2011
The eagerness to elect a "compassionate conservative" also came from those same people you are claiming are against big government. They aren't; they are just against government programs that they perceive as helping people they don't believe should receive help.

Nov 27, 2011
Cindy Sheehan made Bush's life a living hell? Really? Not the exact opposite? What about the Tillman family? Did they make Bush's life hell?

How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.

Nov 27, 2011
The eagerness to elect a "compassionate conservative" also came from those same people you are claiming are against big government. They aren't; they are just against government programs that they perceive as helping people they don't believe should receive help.


So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

I gave you the definition of a conservative wrt government spending. This naturally resolves to a number of things,.. like reliance on the private sector, personal accountability, limited welfare state, in short limited government etc

People like Obama enjoy linking conservative to the Rich, big business, and wall street corruption,... but never mention, the several orders of magnitude larger, corruption and fraud that exists in welfare and disability government programs, by the lower class that pay zero tax.

Nov 27, 2011
How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.


Congress voted to go to war in Iraq. Would you like me to provide quotes of the impeding threat of Saddam, by Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on.

It was a sound military strategy. Had Saddam been in power now with UN sanctions expired, there would be a race to develop nuclear weapons in the middle east, between Iraq and Iran in particular, but not limited.

Nov 27, 2011
What exactly did I misquote Pirouette? Is that your go to disinformation tactic?

FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars and, perhaps, get killed in those wars. Maybe he would prefer them to knit or crochet doilies for his chair?


What's wrong with knitting or crocheting? Are you sexist?


So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.
2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.

How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.


Congress voted to go to war in Iraq. Would you like me to provide quotes of the impeding threat of Saddam, by Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on.


Non sequitur.

Nov 27, 2011
What exactly did I misquote Pirouette? Is that your go to disinformation tactic?

FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars and, perhaps, get killed in those wars. Maybe he would prefer them to knit or crochet doilies for his chair?


What's wrong with knitting or crocheting? Are you sexist?


So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.
2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.

How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.


Congress voted to go to war in Iraq. Would you like me to provide quotes of the impeding threat of Saddam, by Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on.


Non sequitur.

LOL, since they authorize the war, it clearly is not.

Nov 27, 2011
Oh okay, so I guess it's a matter of fairness then? Fine, I'll revise my previous post.

"How many Iraqi's lives did Bush (and Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on [and what, every republican except Ron Paul?]) make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective."

Happy?

Nov 27, 2011

So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?


1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.
2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.


Meaningless generalizations. Democrat voters are inept in their dependance on gov, and democrat leaders are more dishonest as they tap into emotional class war-fare without ever solving poverty, sub-par education, or whatever other ills in society.

You didn't answer the question, so lets try again,...

they are just against government programs that they perceive as helping people they don't believe should receive help.


So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

Nov 27, 2011
Oh okay, so I guess it's a matter of fairness then? Fine, I'll revise my previous post.

"How many Iraqi's lives did Bush (and Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on [and what, every republican except Ron Paul?]) make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective."

Happy?


The point was that you can't just blame Bush, .. the circumstances were such that war was inevitable. War is necessary at times in the real world, never in the idealistic world.

Another thing the far left failed at is to figure out how to arrange the world so that war is never required. Until you anti-war twits accomplish this miracle, it will be business as usual.

Nov 27, 2011
So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?


1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.
2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.


Meaningless generalizations. Democrat voters are inept in their dependance on gov, and democrat leaders are more dishonest as they tap into emotional class war-fare without ever solving poverty, sub-par education, or whatever other ills in society.


Lol this right here is a perfect microcosm of just how little you get my motivation in carrying out these little exchanges with you.

So in response to my admittedly (and intentionally) "meaningless generalizations" you respond with... meaningless generalizations. Now either you are playing the same game I am (unlikely), or you are really ignorant of just how unable you are to see the forest for the trees.

You take particularly illogical and stubborn positions while accusing others of the same. It's this hypocrisy that draws me to you.

Nov 27, 2011
Frankie, how Iraqi lives did Saddam and his boys make a living hell?
How many French, Russian and UN officials aided Saddam to torture Iraqis?

Nov 27, 2011
Frankland, clearly i was supplying counter "meaningless generalizations" for you as an example,.. to show that the same game can be played back and forth ad-infinitum.

Nov 27, 2011
"He said that in 1992, aged 27, he had worked for the intelligence unit for 15 months after qualifying as a junior doctor. He would be taken to a top-security prison in Kadhimiya to treat victims who had been seriously injured through torture.

They looked like somebody who had a big accident, he said.

He claims the role was part of compulsory military service and he had "no choice" and would have been killed if he had spoken out. "
http://www.telegr...tal.html

During the first Gulf War, thousands of Iraqi conscripts surrendered as soon as they could. They would be shot by their officers if they refused to fight.

BTW, Tillman volunteered.

Nov 27, 2011
Frankland, clearly i was supplying counter "meaningless generalizations" for you as an example,.. to show that the same game can be played back and forth ad-infinitum.


Right, that's why the ratings system bothers you so much.

Marjon, Tillman didn't volunteer to become a propaganda piece. Neither did his family.

So did the Tillman family put Bush through hell?

Nov 27, 2011
Frankland, clearly i was supplying counter "meaningless generalizations" for you as an example,.. to show that the same game can be played back and forth ad-infinitum.


Right, that's why the ratings system bothers you so much.


By that same logic, why should I believe that you made those generalizations intentionally?

If I cared about my rating I would never post about politics on a site infested with far lefties. I only wanted the rating system done away with since it is clearly broke, and meaningless.

You're the one with multiple screen names, rating yourself 5's to counter 1's from others.


Nov 27, 2011
Wow. Just wow. Look all of the GOP backers that have piled on this one. Everything reads like a blossom patrol of GOP staffers trying to astro-turf the environmental issues again. You can't event think for your self less you step out of the talking points.

Nov 27, 2011
http://www.physor...rouette/
Affiliation:

retired. . . .buffing my learning curve


LOL. . . .why is FrankHerbfart still here?

FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars...

Frankherbfart says:

...eh Herbfart?

eh, FrankHerbfartface?


How old are you?

and he STILL has our soldiers in Iraq AND Afghanistan


Umm... Iraq is all but over and is OFFICIALLY over by the end of this year. Are you ignorant? Bush neglected Afghanistan for most of his presidency because of his little foray into Iraq for who knows whatever reason (I don't claim to know but it's definitely not anything noumenon claims ;-) ) Afghanistan is also starting to wind down after Bush's mess was mopped up.

@Noumenon
By that same logic, why should I believe that you made those generalizations intentionally?


Why should I believe that you... oh you still don't get it.


Nov 27, 2011
Also we wouldn't have to worry about Afghanistan or 9/11 had the Republicans not impeached Clinton. During the height of the scandal Clinton attempted to take out bin Laden but was accused of wagging the dog and he lacked the political capital to overcome it. Thanks Newt!

Nov 27, 2011
The article says "that global warming is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have MULTIPLE SERIOUS IMPACTS.". From the debate, the discussion is anything but on topic. It's a typical troll tactic. And as much as I appreciate R2's strained and contorted logic, occasionally things can be said that are just about as far from reality as to be made up crap.

"hey'll sit in a GreenPeace boat and almost get killed trying to stop a whalehunting ship."

That person, who will put his life on the line trying to stop whalehunting is a larger than life HERO in my book. First, there is no reason to hunt whales given they mostly consist of fats that could be made with "petroleum products". There is nothing in a whale should be eaten, given all of the turkey around here. And the whale is a real sentient being unlike the life forms found on Mars. The green peace whale watchers are there 1st, to stop ILLEGAL Whaling, but in international waters, "legal" whalers too!

Nov 27, 2011
Has anyone noticed that Iraq and Afghanistan border Iran?
Do you think having US forces so close to Iran may have made its leaders a bit uncomfortable?

Many of them are downright dangerous

Earth Firsters set fire to an auto dealer and routinely put spikes in trees hoping to injure lumberjacks.

Nov 27, 2011
The point being about the Greenpeace Whalehunter Interceptors is they are making a moral and ethical stance to deprive a vial commercial enterprise it's resources to starve it out of an unnecessary business.

If you really want to see injustice just look at what BP did to the Gulf of Mexico. Dead shit washing to shore everyday. Dead fishing and aquaculture all over. Even a dead tourist industry. That my oil/coal loving conservative is the Bush legacy, and the legacy of the CO2 lovers.

Nov 27, 2011
R2, Non-Earth Firsters routinely will destroy full ecosystems just to uptick a stock price by a quarter percent on a given day.

Nov 27, 2011
That's true. . . .there is massive corruption in the welfare state programs. While giving taxpayers' money to welfare queens and kings, those same welfare queens and kings go out and buy fancy new cars, color plasma flat screen TVs, expensive clothes and booze, and keep a girlie or 2 on the side. Oh yes, and they ALL vote for Democrats because dat Obama. . .he be taking care of me and mah chilluns. . .and I don haf to work fo' dat money. . .heheheheh."

There is only one word that completely describes this rant:

BIGOT

Nov 27, 2011
Dead fishing and aquaculture all over.

Really? Where? Data?

Nov 27, 2011
HAHAHAHA, so Iraq wasn't a mistake but Afghanistan was? How do you manage to be so confused Pirouette? And the last soldier will leave Iraq this year, unless you count those stationed at the embassy, in which case I guess we are at "war" with nearly every nation on Earth.

Earth Firsters set fire to an auto dealer and routinely put spikes in trees hoping to injure lumberjacks.


Conservatives eat their children.

Nov 27, 2011
The Aussies don't know our conservative kooks and what they're capable of doing in their blind hatred of anything that comes near their money. I was pointing out that the paleocons can get vicious and will possibly kill to save a buck. Aussies don't know that.

Nov 27, 2011
But a conservative would send soldiers to die in Iraq?

@twinners. . . . .nope, definitely NOT a bigot here. . .YOU are the bigot if you are putting a label on a way of speech when you don't even know WHO or WHERE that speech came from. You are making an assumption, and that makes YOU the bigot.


This is a classic conservative trick. Make a racist statement (usually mocking ebonics exactly how pirouette did) then when called on it, claim the other person is racist for acknowledging the existence of racism. Acknowledging the existence of racism does not make one racist. Sorry.

Nov 27, 2011
The last Conservative President was Ronald Reagan and there has been no others since.


"A sober review of Reagan's presidency doesn't yield the seamlessly conservative record being peddled today. Federal government expanded on his watch. The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control. His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983. And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised."

http://www.washin...een.html


Nov 27, 2011
The last Conservative President was Ronald Reagan and there has been no others since.


"A sober review of Reagan's presidency doesn't yield the seamlessly conservative record being peddled today. Federal government expanded on his watch. The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control. His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983. And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised."

http://www.washin...een.html



As recent history has shown, conservatism has nothing to do with the size of government. It never did. Conservatism has everything to do with oppressing "the other".

Nov 27, 2011
The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat
In much of the US they default to Religious Right. Many default to drunk on a bar stool Right. You are thinking of college students.

safest and most emotionally reasonable position.
Its because they are not at at home with the Right Wing parents anymore.

and therefore away from idealism.
Thus speaks an Libertarian Idealist. Please see Marjon for an even more radical idealist.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference
SOme do become cynical because they gave up their ideals instead of simply adapting to reality.

and become relatively more conservative.
That is not what you said.

If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains
That is not relative to Liberal. Progressive is relative, despite Marjon's lies, Moderate is relative. Conservatives have often simply given up thinking of others.

Ethelred

Nov 27, 2011
@Pirfruit says:

A Conservative would never have sent soldiers to die in Afghanistan.


That just shows what CHICKEN HAWK really are then!


Nov 27, 2011
@Purefruit says:
FrankHerbfart is all about racism wherever he thinks it is lurking

Pirouette must be drinking. I'll note, I've never called R2 a racist.

Nov 27, 2011
Via PM:

Pirouette 12 min ago

Hey Herbfart, if you weren't such a nigger your mom would let you out of the basement you stupid lib.


Well it seems Pirouette has reached a breaking point.

Nov 27, 2011
It's is amazing how desperate the arguments are coming from Purefruit. Social people and communal people are not going to be silenced by you bumbling blather. Actually I fear it the other way, conservatives wanting to put a camera in my Daughter's uterus. Or cameras in your bed room. Those are certainly not a liberal's idea. Conservatives spend like mad.
Liberals actually put people to work.

Mice Check anyone?


Nov 28, 2011
@Purefruit, I never said that R2 called you a racist either. But you paint a picture with broad N stroke. That direction is at your peril.

Nov 28, 2011
The last Conservative President was Ronald Reagan ...

Did you miss the fact that Reagan understood the value of deficit spending?

Nov 28, 2011
@purefruit you knew who purefruit was, so you must know R2. I kid R2. Listen, I just don't read messages posted by some Chicken Hawk conservative blow hard. So when did you become a racist fruit? You realize that my brother friends could bring down some my difficult mouthwash on your a**. I guess that is why your all shut up and everything.


Nov 28, 2011
Uhh, I don't know what to say. This is something else. My, what the internet drags in.

Nov 28, 2011
@FrankH, "This is something else". It is indeed. It is indeed.
Flame fest; Unfortunately; see

http://www.bbc.co...15869683

Pretty soon the bots like PureFruit will be AI driven and we will see wars where Liberal Bot and the not-worthy of a reply Bot duel it out. So you want to shut off debate on the validity of research that says "that global warming is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have multiple serious impacts."

Purefruit must be a looser because he can't even stay on topic.




Nov 28, 2011
The topic scares you man. It scares you. Your turd-blossom leader will be very dis-pleased with you. Raise your hands if you really want to vote conservative now.

Nov 28, 2011
Ugg I hate to jump to such conclusions, and I'm certainly not convinced, but it would make me feel SO MUCH BETTER if marjon was getting a paycheck. I mean seriously. If he's actually sincere about all that it would make me sad.

Obviously, no one is paying Pirouette for his insane, racist ramblings.

Nov 28, 2011
@FrankH "Obviously, no one is paying" Purefruit "for his insane, racist ramblings" Yes they are. It may not be a paycheck, but you can be sure purefruit is checking in with the MOTHERSHIP to see howto reply. He doesn't have that many talking points you see.


Nov 28, 2011
@purefruit; So you want to shut off debate on the validity of research that says "that global warming is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have multiple serious impacts."

Purefruit must be a looser because he can't even stay on topic.

Nov 28, 2011
Pirouette, the Chameleon: Capitalist, Conservative, now Trailer Trash.

Nov 28, 2011
@purefruit. Wrap it up dude. Your going to get a reputation.


Nov 28, 2011
@PureFruit; So what is wrong with Ratzzzzes. They certainly make good lab animals and have a distinct DNA resemblance to Humans.


Nov 28, 2011
@PureFruit; Your the thing that's all over family man. The Mothership is calling you purefruit. You haven't said anything about how conservatives make love. It must be the best thing since ... Hell you fill in the blank.


Nov 28, 2011
Ted Haggard is a conservative well known for his meth fueled gay love making. Lol couldn't make it up.

http://en.wikiped...from_job

And just in case...

http://en.wikiped...Scotsman

Nov 28, 2011
Lol. OMG! That is like... so insane man. What is purefruit going to make of this? Frank$shit, this POS purefruit can't even tell us how a conservative .. does it.

Nov 28, 2011
To the MOTHERSHIP @pinkfruit. Your talking points are missing.


Nov 28, 2011
Am I late to the party?! I woulda got here earlier but I was busy having relations with my semitransparent martian bovine friend.

Let the maps of war be drawn!

Nov 28, 2011
Lol. the @purefruit made a funny. I'm sorry but your lousy brain processes are mostly transparent. Go to bed looser.


Nov 28, 2011
purefruit says "Let the maps of war be drawn!" CONSERVATIVE. The man represents. Yeah I really want to vote for that guy.


Nov 28, 2011
You don't know what you don't know.

The facts will come out the way they are not the way we want them to. This study indicates that previous predictions are based on a model which isn't correct. This *is* science and the answer is to improve the model and try again.

The climate will change, it always has, it was foolish and naive to think it would stay the same.

Nov 28, 2011
Pirouette said
... into anal sex ...

I know some guys in Attica that I can introduce you to.

I also know some hacks that can arrange for your making conjugal visits :D

Nov 28, 2011
@purefruit; Conservative chicken hawk wants to declare war. In you dreams turd-blossum buddy. Go back to the mothership, pickup some anti-global-warming talking points.

THE DEBATE IS OVER. AGW (that is anthropogenic global warming or simply human created global warming) is real, and will have a huge impact on everyone. In fact I see the global pull back in the markets caused by not banking concerns, but more like AGW concerns. If 15 year into the future Florida large tracks of Florida or Louisiana are underwater from melting glaciers where do people invest?


Nov 28, 2011
If I was a conservative I would be ashamed, ASHAMED of your new found leader; purefruit! All hail his awkward dispose.

He has yet to explain how conservatives ... like pro-create. I just can't explain it either. Have you ever looked at them? Yeeesh.

Nov 28, 2011
Another small earthquake has been reported in Oklahoma. It must be Purefruit so forcefully exploding it registers there. I guess it another Oklahoma earthquake that wasn't caused by fracking.

Naw.. it wasn't an earthquake, it was pinkfruit doing a represent of his "conservative" credentials.

Nov 28, 2011
cont @ Ethelred,... most people that know little of politics, rely on caricatures
I see Irony.

and so default to liberal, because "liberals care about The People"
More dubious caricatures, that look suspiciously like paranoid nightmare pinkos from RightWing fantasy.

and being of like mind is acceptable without further understanding,..
You sure have that part down. So little understanding in that.

while "mean old republicans" are for "big business and the rich"
Mean = parsimonious in a selfish way. And big business is somewhat inherently for the rich. My you like to act like Marjon. Where are the silly quotes from the utter wackjobs?

and carry the further burden of understanding to be accepted.
Or just plain greed to want join in at the trough.>>

Nov 28, 2011
Purefruit; Give it up. You lost all credibility.

Nov 28, 2011
This is why the vast majority of hollywood actors, music artists, criminals, welfare recipients, union members, rioters, and other smelly groups, tend to be liberal.
You do like be a total stereotype don't you. Philosophy sure does rot the brain. Must have come from sucking up to their sponsors.

If you attempt to link conservative to "mean old man before his time", remember that the majority of conservatives (not me) are religious
Many. Others just lie about being religious.

and give donations to their church who in turn help the needy.
That's mostly Catholics who tend to be a bit more liberal at that. Atheists and Agnostics don't bother with paying a parasite to give a tiny fraction to the actual poor.

Ethelred

Nov 28, 2011
The "eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative", comes from conservatives,
Actually they are not conservatives, lower case, they are Radicals, upper case. This is the problem with Reagan Conservatives. They are NOT conservatives. They are radicals and frequently Religious wack jobs on top of it.

Ethelred

Nov 28, 2011
This thread has gone off the rails. I am somewhat hesitent to reply to it anymore as I could be banned accidently in the mass banning that is coming should Physorg show even the slightest sign of giving a damn anymore about their site.

by the lower class that pay zero tax.
I would say there is no such thing except the Supreme Court in a massively insane decision decided corporations are people and there are people that don't pay taxes. The rest of us do. Even that utter parasite Leona Helmsley paid some taxes before she was prosecuted for evading most of them.

You have made that false claim before and got called on it. Its time you stopped that particular fairy story.

I am poor.

I pay taxes.

You tell a lot of lies. The only question is whether it is intentional or delusional.

Ethelred

Nov 28, 2011
Congress voted to go to war in Iraq.
Based on lies they were told about Weapons Of Massive Fabrications.

It was a sound military strategy.
It was really bad politics and got Americans killed to root out nonexistent weaponry and to show that Bush had bigger Dick than his daddy. Dick Chaney.

And the long term strategy was inept. Mostly due to Bush. Now Obama has the mess he left behind to deal with. Even so the only sound strategy is to get out. If the religious wackjobs can't stop killing each other then at least we won't have to worry about them killing anyone else. I think the best policy is to say 'we are leaving, starting right now so you better figure out how to live peacefully as we are not going spill our blood trying to save you anymore'.

The point was that you can't just blame Bush
He is the one that pressured the CIA into making up nonsense to support the claim of Weapon Of Massive Paranoia.

Ethelred

Nov 28, 2011
Pirouette's numerical excursion into a world not our own:

1 bullshit
2 crap
3 insane rant
4 paranoid delusions that you made up - actually that goes all the points as none of it is even remotely real.

So I think easier respond with an algorithm.

Program Paranoid Delusion
X = 1
Insane rant = literal string of insanity with random massively paranoid fear based fantasy taken from database of a collection of Marjon's Ann Rand fueled fantasies.
PRINT X
PRINT ') '
PRINT RND (Insane rant)
PRINT CR
X = X 1
IF X < APOPLEXY
THEN GOTO Paranoid Delusion
ELSE END

Ethelred