US would let Apple keep software to help FBI hack iPhone

February 20, 2016 by Tami Abdollah And Eric Tucker
US would let Apple keep software to help FBI hack iPhone
In this Wednesday, Sept. 9, 2015, file photo, Apple CEO Tim Cook discusses the new iPhone 6s and iPhone 6s Plus during the Apple event at the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium in San Francisco. Apple has spent years setting itself up as the champion of individual privacy and security, a decision that's landed it in the government's crosshairs over an iPhone allegedly used by one of the San Bernardino shooters. The high-profile case presents risks for Apple almost no matter what it does, and may spill over into the broader tech industry as well, potentially chilling cooperation with federal efforts to curb extremism. (AP Photo/Eric Risberg, File)

The Obama administration told a U.S. magistrate judge on Friday it would be willing to allow Apple Inc. to retain possession of and later destroy specialized software it has been ordered to design to help the FBI hack into an encrypted iPhone used by the gunman in December's mass shootings in California.

The government made clear that it was open to less intrusive options in a new legal filing intended to blunt public criticism by Apple's chief executive, Tim Cook, who said the would be "too dangerous to create" because it would threaten the digital privacy of millions of iPhone customers worldwide.

"Apple may maintain custody of the software, destroy it after its purpose under the order has been served, refuse to disseminate it outside of Apple and make clear to the world that it does not apply to other devices or users without lawful court orders," the Justice Department told Judge Sheri Pym. "No one outside Apple would have access to the software required by the order unless Apple itself chose to share it."

Meanwhile, the legal fight continued to reverberate on the presidential campaign trail as Republican candidate Donald Trump called on Americans to boycott Apple until it complies with the court order.

Trump made the comment during a question-and-answer session in Pawleys Island, South Carolina, where he's campaigning ahead of Saturday's first-in-the-South Republican presidential primary. Trump says Cook wants to prove "how liberal he is" and told the crowd to "boycott Apple until such time as they give up that security."

US would let Apple keep software to help FBI hack iPhone
In this Sept. 9, 2014, file photo, Apple CEO Tim Cook speaks during an announcement of new products in Cupertino, Calif. Faced with a federal judge's order to help investigators break into an iPhone allegedly used by one of the San Bernardino, Calif., shooters, Apple may well argue that the request would place an unreasonable burden on the company. In fact, doing what the government asks is not likely to be a tough technical feat for Apple. But doing so might have dramatic consequences on the data security of the millions of iPhone users around the world. (AP Photo/Marcio Jose Sanchez, File)

In the latest volley between the federal government and one of the world's most respected companies, the Justice Department argued that Apple has the technical ability to comply with a court order issued this week—but won't do so because of its marketing strategy.

"Apple has attempted to design and market its products to allow technology, rather than the law, to control access to data which has been found by this court to be warranted for an important investigation," the filing states.

The Justice Department's motion, which seeks to force Apple to comply with Pym's order, appears aimed at rebutting some of the key objections of Apple and its supporters. It says that the software the government seeks, contrary to Apple's assertions, is not akin to a "master key, capable of opening hundreds of millions of locks." And it also rejects the idea that the placed an unreasonable burden on the company, saying Apple already has the technical wherewithal to satisfy it.

"To the extent that Apple claims that the order is unreasonably burdensome because it undermines Apple's marketing strategies or because it fears criticism for providing lawful access to the government, these concerns do not establish an undue burden," the government wrote.

Apple's written objection, already signaled by Cook in a message to Apple customers, is due next Friday.

Apple executives said during a call with reporters Friday that the company had worked with federal officials and investigators to try to gain access to Syed Farook's iPhone. The executives, who insisted on anonymity to speak freely amid ongoing legal proceedings, said they went to the FBI in early January with four suggestions, including a workaround using iCloud. Prosecutors noted the four methods and their "deficiencies" in a footnote in their Friday court filing.

US would let Apple keep software to help FBI hack iPhone
A collection of Apple iPhones and iPads fill a table during a news conference at New York City Police Headquarters, Thursday, Feb. 18, 2016 in New York. Police and prosecutors in New York City said Thursday that the top-notch encryption technology on Apple mobile phones is now routinely hindering criminal investigations. And they predicted the problem could grow worse as more criminals figure out how well the devices keep secrets. (AP Photo/Verena Dobnik)

The magistrate on Tuesday ordered Apple to provide the FBI with highly specialized software that could be loaded onto the work-issued iPhone 5C used by Farook, who died with his wife in a gun battle with police after killing 14 people in December in San Bernardino, California. The U.S. has said the attacks were partly inspired by the Islamic State terror group.

Although the judge instructed Apple to create the software for the FBI, she said it could be loaded onto the phone at an Apple facility.

But the Justice Department made explicit Friday that Apple could retain custody of the software at all times.

The specialized software would bypass a security time delay and self-destruct feature that erases all data after 10 consecutive, unsuccessful attempts to guess the unlocking passcode. This would allow the FBI to use technology to rapidly and repeatedly test numbers in what's known as a brute force attack. In their filing Friday, prosecutors explained that investigators would be willing to work remotely to test passcodes, while Apple retained both possession of the phone and the technology itself.

That's a good "compromise position" because "they're giving all the power to Apple," said Jason Healey, a former director on cyber policy at the White House.

"They're telling Apple, 'You hold the software, we're not asking you to put a backdoor in the encryption, we just want to be able to brute force this thing,'" Healey said. "If the precedent is this, that they deliver the phone to Apple and Apple does it, I think that's a pretty good precedent that can't be done en masse on the next thousand iPhones."

The government said the county-owned phone could be valuable as evidence because Farook appeared to use the device to communicate with his wife in the months before the shootings as well as with some of his co-workers who were killed in the attacks.

Two other personal phones were found crushed beyond investigative value in the trash behind the couple's home.

The House Energy and Commerce Committee on Friday invited Cook and FBI Director James Comey to appear before it to discuss encryption technologies and issues of privacy and national security, asking both to tell Americans how they plan to move forward.

A hearing in the federal case has been set for March 22 in Riverside, California.

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146 comments

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Whydening Gyre
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 20, 2016
This is the proper course of action...
dogbert
4 / 5 (6) Feb 20, 2016
Whydening Gyre,
This is the proper course of action...


I disagree for several reasons.

The U. S. government has tried to get congress to force technology companies to install "back door" access, defeating encryption technology on their devices. Congress has rightly refused to grant what amounts to rendering encryption technology useless. This attempt by the FBI to force Apple to defeat the encryption system on that phone is an attempt to circumvent the congress through the courts. If the FBI can force the company to break the technology just one time, they have a legal key to force that company to break the technology as many times as they desire. One time becomes equivalent to every time and security software is effectively rendered ineffective.

continued...
dogbert
5 / 5 (8) Feb 20, 2016
Whydening Gyre, continued...

Two phones were destroyed by the terrorists while this phone was not destroyed. It is obvious that the terrorists destroyed the phones with useful information on them and did not destroy the phone which did not have useful information. This is another indication that the FBI is not really interested in the information on this phone. They are interested in setting a precedent by forcing Apple to break the protection on the phone.

Though cell service providers for the most part say they do not retain text message content for a significant time, they do retain origination and destination headers and can be queried by subpoena for that information. Again, the FBI does not appear to be interested in who the terrorists contacted since that information is accessible from the phone carrier.

The demand for Apple to break its protection system is plainly an effort to destroy encryption technology in U. S. companies through the courts.
gkam
2.1 / 5 (15) Feb 20, 2016
I have to agree with doggie.

I trusted the Department of Justice until they put me on one of their Federal Criminal Grand Juries, where I apparently asked the wrong question as Deputy Foreperson.

They are now looking for an excuse to make back doors in executable programs legal and necessary. Trouble is, anyone who finds it can use it. And I trust the DOJ like I trust Putin.

And as we have been reminded by the hateful Scalia, "justice" has a political tint here. I served in the Bush Years, and I wish all of you could have experienced it. We would then have a different America.
koitsu
3.5 / 5 (8) Feb 20, 2016
Wouldn't be surprised to see this one end up at the Supreme Court and hopefully ending in Apple's favor. I find it kind of ridiculous to see a blithering buffoon like trump even mentioned in the same article as an innovative and highly advanced technology company. Forget trump, what does Pee-wee Herman think about all this? Who shouts the loudest is heard, I guess. Depressing...
gkam
1.6 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
It does not matter except for the ease of the government sneaking into our lives as voyeurs. They are already here. In the 1960's we listened to the VC on the ground as they planned to attack Khe Sanh, and along The Trail. We have come a long way since then, and I do not trust those in charge of our "intelligence" agencies. They have found more power in looking at our people than anyone else, and now, they use that power.

How many cowardly pols would stand up to those spies and sneaks who have "the goods" on them? How many fear the invention of "facts" from the "intelligence agencies"?

Like the Repubs with their TeaBaggers, we have created monsters.
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
I have to agree with doggie.

I do agree it sets a precedent.
I trusted the Department of Justice until they put me on one of their Federal Criminal Grand Juries, where I apparently asked the wrong question as Deputy Foreperson.

Waitaminit - You've always indicated pride in your FCGJ stint...
They are now looking for an excuse to make back doors in executable programs legal and necessary. Trouble is, anyone who finds it can use it. And I trust the DOJ like I trust Putin.

I trust the citizens of Apple more than the current Feds.
And as we have been reminded by the hateful Scalia, "justice" has a political tint here. I served in the Bush Years, ...

Bush Years and Vietnam ?!? And-Good job slammin' a dead guy.
We would then have a different America.

Ahhhh. The GK plan...
Things are the way they are because WE/YOU let them be that way. Too many willing to give up freedoms and rights for a little protection and comfort.
gkam
1.5 / 5 (15) Feb 20, 2016
WG, when a guy croaks, it does not change what he did in his life. Remember those old black and white movies of totalitarian states, with police armed with machine guns and demands to see your "Papers! Where are your papers?!". Justice Scalia ruled our police can do just that, and if you cannot prove who you are on command, they can jail you.

Mister Justice Compassion also ruled that if you can positively prove your innocence of a capital crime for which you have been convicted, but have run out of appeals, the government can still kill you.

Is that Justice to you? You want more examples?

Why did Scalia take a free expensive bird-killing trip from someone with business before the Court? Ask the guy who "found" him.

Everything he did stinks.
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (12) Feb 20, 2016
WG, when a guy croaks, it does not change what he did in his life. Remember those old black and white movies of totalitarian states, with police armed with machine guns and demands to see your "Papers! Where are your papers?!". Justice Scalia ruled our police can do just that, and if you cannot prove who you are on command, they can jail you.

Mister Justice Compassion also ruled that if you can positively prove your innocence of a capital crime for which you have been convicted, but have run out of appeals, the government can still kill you.

Is that Justice to you? You want more examples?

Why did Scalia take a free expensive bird-killing trip from someone with business before the Court? Ask the guy who "found" him.

Everything he did stinks.

Fine. He was an ass. He's dead - move on. DO something besides whine about it.
dogbert
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 20, 2016
gkam,

You seem to agree with me that the government wants access to everything we have including our communications. But then you slam conservatives. Conservatives want a return to limited government. Liberals/Democrats and many people in the Republican party want to continue to grow government without limit.

Justice Scalia was a conservative who believed in a constitutional, hence limited, government.

We can agree that the government we have wants full access to everything we do and say.
gkam
2.3 / 5 (16) Feb 20, 2016
Conservatives gave us the Police State.

Since Bush, we are now all suspects in our own country.
dogbert
2.3 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
gkam,
Conservatives gave us the Police State.


I think the Police State in America exists only in your mind, but consider who has been arming local police departments with military grade weapons, assault vehicles and other military equipment and technology?

Our current administration has been heavily involved in just that. He is definitely not conservative.
Captain Stumpy
3.8 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
with police armed with machine guns
HOLD IT A MINUTE!
clarification needed!

Problem! you can't have it both ways, gkam!

you want to disarm the honest public because CRIMINALS don't obey existing gun laws, background checks, and licensing requirements and they steal guns illegally...
AND
you have stated that we have cops to protect us...
BUT
now you are saying a cop with a machine gun is part of the police state?????

you also don't want cops to be able to protect us???

considering i actually gave you a method to actually test the logical fallacy of writing more laws against guns, your rants are beginning to degenerate and really not make sense: you are becoming a cross between benni and rygg2 (you've done everything & are more intelligent than everyone- and can prove it- lol... and only your political point matters because of your experience and life, etc and no actual real definition or evidence is going to make you change your mind)

wow
just wow

g=ben-ryg
gkam
1.6 / 5 (14) Feb 20, 2016
Yeah, I am saying cops in airports with machine guns are part of a Police State. As is the illegal spying on us (Room 641A, ATT Building San Francisco). As was the illegal arrest and confinement and abuse of Jose Padilla and all we could get our hands on in the Bush Wars.

Now, drop the personal crap and start being rational.
Estevan57
4.4 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
"Yeah, I am saying cops in airports with machine guns are part of a Police State...
Now, drop the personal crap and start being rational." - gkam

Ha Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (15) Feb 20, 2016
You folk who are SCARED can trade your freedom for what you think is "security", but in my 71 years, I learned better.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
I am saying cops in airports with machine guns are part of a Police State
@g/ben-ryg
I'm being VERY rational... unlike you

So... you are saying that arming the cops to at least the level of the criminal to protect your sorry butt from crime is a police state?
WTF?

ROTFLMFAO

that is HYPOCRISY at it's worst!
you can't have it both ways, g, especially considering you want to disarm the public as well!!

do you think writing a new law will auto-magically make criminals give up their guns?

you do realise i actually gave you a means to test the validity of that belief/statement, right?
all you gotta do is run to the projects in LA and see how many known felons are armed... how many gangbangers carry guns!

After all, it is a FELONY for a convicted felon to carry a firearm or any weapon with a trigger activation (including a BOW)

how many 'bangers did you see unarmed? turn in weapons to cops?

please, let us know all about it!
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (12) Feb 20, 2016
You folk who are SCARED can trade your freedom for what you think is "security"
@g/ben-ryg
uuhhmmmm..... you DO realise that this is exactly what you are advocating, right?
you want everyone ELSE to "give up their freedom" so that you can have "perceived security" by disarming the public!
ROTFLMFAO

so... in all those years hanging out with 'bangers and felons... you never once saw any of them arm themselves and break any laws because "it was against the law" for them to be armed or to even associate with other felons OR congregate with known arms dealers or armed houses?????
but in my 71 years, I learned better

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

gkam
1.6 / 5 (14) Feb 20, 2016
Stumpy, I am not going to argue about your need for man-killers. I do not know what scares you, but I outgrew it.

I trust my son-in-law, the Sergeant for the Oakland Police to keep us safe without a machine gun.

Good luck to you, and be safe.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
I am not going to argue about your need for man-killers
@g/ben-ryg
which ones? the one that i carry because of my freakin' BADGE or the one i carry when i feed my family?
you really should specify, troll boy
I do not know what scares you
1- stupid politicians listening to people like you and then acting on it without consenting the public directly violating the CONSTITUTION
2- decisions made in congress based upon stupidity - like thinking a criminal will give up a gun because there is a LAW written
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
I trust my son-in-law, the Sergeant for the Oakland Police to keep us safe without a machine gun
yep... you really think that might be true.... but what about when said Sgt faces off with something like this: https://www.youtu...1Gml-ZGc

the whole reason cops carry the kind of firearms YOU DISAGREE WITH right now is because criminals don't obey the law
imagine that!

gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
Stumpy, you live in the woods, but deign to tell me about how I am "hanging out with 'bangers and felons..." in the suburbs in Pleasant Hill?

It's your emotion speaking, Stumpy. You know you distort my meanings because it feels good to you.

I do not want to get into gun ownership, which is dwindling: The new guns are being bought by the same scared and pathetic folk who already had some. The percentage of gun owners is getting smaller and more rabid.
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
But if your trust in your son in law is based on his ability to deter crime by his armed presence, doesn't that create a police state in the same way an armed presence at airports creates one?

It must depend on the type of man killer. I call mine a hunting rifle.

Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
Stumpy, you live in the woods
@g/ben-ryg
SO?
but deign to tell me about how I am "hanging out with 'bangers and felons..." in the suburbs in Pleasant Hill?
well, obviously you had to have been hanging out with them based upon your posts!

after all, you specifically said "but in my 71 years, I learned better"
BY DEFINITION that means that in said 71 years you must have had experience with felons and 'bangers because you are saying that making more gun laws will disarm criminals, and that simply disarming criminals and making guns illegal will make us all safe

this means you MUST have had criminal/'banger experiences so you know how they think and act, and that you have an inside track on how to insure the safety of the general public from a criminal who, by definition, doesn't obey laws

gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
" I call mine a hunting rifle."

I gave up killing when I grew up. Blowing the guts out of a helpless animal disgusts me.

Stumpy: "because you are saying that making more gun laws will disarm criminals,"

SHOW ME!!

YOU are the one who needs proof, so SHOW ME!!

It is what you want to believe, and what you tell yourself, but it is not true, and now, you have to prove it. Maybe it's in Wiki, . .
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
It's your emotion speaking, Stumpy
@g/ben-ryg
nope. i am trying to get you to pull your head out of your *ss
You know you distort my meanings because it feels good to you
i aint distorting... you are just not able to make sense
I do not want to get into gun ownership, which is dwindling
around here: new gun sales up 30%
new women's gun sales up 235%
The new guns are being bought by the same scared and pathetic folk who already had some
not around here https://www.atf.g...atistics

rabid?
maybe its defensive because of idiots like you trying to undermine the constitution because you are attempting to enforce your own political perspectives and beliefs on everyone regardless of whether they want it or not?
ekim
5 / 5 (4) Feb 20, 2016
Would you buy a lock that was mostly effective some of the time? By making Apple do this, they are changing customers opinion of how reliable their phones are at thwarting criminals attempts to access their data. If Apple can do it, and the government can do it, how long until the criminals can do it?
Estevan57
4.4 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
Gkam - Doh! he just did show you, but you are just not smart enough to understand simple verbal logic.

You are sounding scared lately. Perhaps your desire for venison has created a blood-lust that can only be satisfied by denigrating the interests of others.

Gun sales up in Oregon too.

"Venison, . . YUM!" - gkam
http://phys.org/n...ive.html

Does your venison come from the venison tree?
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
SHOW ME!!
more BS from historical @g/ben-ryg posts
Get rid of guns, and the gun nuts will have to use clubs, and become club nuts....You can spot him by the "cold dead hands" bumper sticker
You do not "need" a gun. We arm our police and military, and that's enough
My self-defense requires we keep you folk unarmed
As gun owners, you folk should be willing to work with the rest of us to keep rational folk only with these devices
http://phys.org/n...gun.html

this is why the citizen should always be armed in the US... to insure idiots like you don't screw up our nation with your ideology and false assumptions that have NO rational basis or scientific support
Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
I do not want to get into gun ownership, which is dwindling blah blah made-up bullsh*t blah The percentage of gun owners is getting smaller and more rabid.
from my above STATS link @BATFE

Number of NFA Firearms Processed by Fiscal Year

Fiscal Year Firearms Processed
2014 1,383,677
2013 1,152,163
2012 1,112,041
2011 992,975
2010 828,462
2009 834,328
2008 981,303
2007 563,127
2006 296,127
2005 147,484

wow... such a huge drop !!
(sarcastic satire & hyperbole)
Does your venison come from the venison tree?
@Estevan57
maybe he is smoking it with whatever else is in his pipe?
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Feb 20, 2016
You did not show me where I said " making more gun laws will disarm criminals,"

Mister "Proof" got caught.

Yeah, you have to be armed, because you are scared of me?
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Feb 20, 2016
I guess Estevan has no sense of sarcasm, after my comment in the thread about diseased animals. Even clean, I do not like venison. And I like the thrill of killing even less.
Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
more BS from historical @g/ben-ryg posts - cont'd from same thread
Gun ownership by the goobers is not a good idea. Why arm folk who "need" guns
Are you a "well-regulated militia"? Those are the ones we allowed to have guns...
If your job does not require them, then you have them for psychological reasons. That should be sufficient to keep you from having them.
We need to make sure folk like otto do not have ANY access to guns
Read more at: http://phys.org/n...gun.html

by definition, this means "make laws to outlaw guns for people"
it also makes the ASS-umption that making said law will insure safety and insure that no criminal will be armed, by logical extension of the argument
especially the part about
Gun ownership by the goobers is not a good idea. Why arm folk who "need" guns
or any other of your trolling BS

i can continue...
Eikka
5 / 5 (5) Feb 20, 2016
they have a legal key to force that company to break the technology as many times as they desire


Not without a court order. That's the point.

It is already within their power to force Apple to comply, and they're doing it. The only question here is whether Apple will agree to a reasonable compromize or make more trouble for themselves.
gkam
1 / 5 (12) Feb 20, 2016
"it also makes the ASS-umption that making said law will insure safety and insure that no criminal will be armed, by logical extension of the argument"
-----------------------------------
By "logical extension of the argument"?

That means you .lied, Stumpy. I never said it, did I? You wanted to believe it so you fooled yourself.

I do not want your guns, I just want you to keep away from me when you "need" them, . . all of you, hunters, gangs, scared folk, . . all of you.
Estevan57
5 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
Gkam, if you are going to say something about me, at least address it to me.

Consider it something else to outgrow.
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
You did not show me where I said " making more gun laws will disarm criminals,"
That means you .lied, Stumpy. I never said it, did I? You wanted to believe it so you fooled yourself
how about this then
my main opposition is to handguns, which are made to kill PEOPLE

Let's get some strict gun laws, and take these killing devices away from the kooks
[like the criminal?-stumpy]
I trust nobody but authorized, trained, and controlled personnel to have them
this means that you ASSume making a law will disarm the criminal
this is the exact same thing as saying "making more gun laws will disarm criminals" right?

you must remember G/benni... you've said a LOT of stupid sh*t WRT gun laws and gun control... i am still sifting between all the gems you've posted in the past

that is a large order for ANYONE to get through... and i don't want to miss any good stuff direct from your own delusions
Estevan57
5 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
@Eikka - Apple has to maintain the position of holding out as long as possible, even if they have every intention of opening the particular phone. It fits in with the carefully crafted image they have created. If the government REALLY wanted to squeeze Apple they could have restarted the discussion about repatriating their billions of dollars of untaxed overseas profits.
dogbert
4.2 / 5 (6) Feb 20, 2016
Eikka,
they have a legal key to force that company to break the technology as many times as they desire

Not without a court order. That's the point.


That is not the point. They have already asked congress for the right to disable security on technology devices including phones. Congress said no.

Now they are attempting to circumvent the law by getting the courts to demand they be given the right to disable security on a particular phone which contains nothing of importance. The plan is to force Apple to comply which then sets the precedent for every instance when they want access to a device. They are effectively asking the courts to provide them with authority which was denied them by congress.

It is not about terrorism and it is not about supposed information on this particular phone. And they do not have the right to do this. They are asking the court to circumvent the law and give them that right.
gkam
1 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
My "delusions", Stumpy? You are the one who needs devices to kill Humans.

Let's stop the gun argument.
antigoracle
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 20, 2016
Apple has long established the security and privacy of their customers as part of its business model and pushed it as a distinction from their competition. They therefore, have a lot to lose by simply bowing, so while their response does have a lot to do with PR it is far from a stunt. The fact is this is a single phone from an established criminal so opening access to it does not diminish the privacy of anyone else. I expect Apple to take this as far up the justice system as they deem necessary to maintain their image, but the response at every level will be to comply and rightly so. While we do need protection from the government, we need it even more from criminals.
Captain Stumpy
4.6 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
My "delusions"
@G/benni-kam
yeah, you know... those delusional comments like this one
You are the one who needs devices to kill Humans
it is a requirement, not a need
you are the one ASSuming that anyone who owns a firearm because they like firearms is a "kook" or criminal, or doesn't need one... does that mean all those black-powder shooters are criminals? what about the elderly trying to protect themselves from the FELONS that you want to empower?
Let's stop the gun argument.
AGREED! you are too stupid/EMO to actually make sense and present a valid functional or logical argument

BYE

.

gkam
1.3 / 5 (13) Feb 20, 2016
Wow, . . those gun folk are really emotional.
Phys1
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 20, 2016
Apple is a business and gets a lot of good publicity out of this.
If they give in it will look like they are colluding with the Justice Department against their customers.
It is the JD's job to force them, so that both the JD and Apple will retain credibilty.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Feb 20, 2016
I disagree, Phys. It is to set a standard of response, a precedent. Doggie is right on this one.

Did you look up Room 641A like I suggested? Let's discuss it.
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
Wow, . . those gun folk are really emotional


Wow, you are the gift that keeps on giving when it comes to stepping in stuffs. Cher you are in the top five of all the peoples on the physorg when it comes to shrill and emotional.

Did you look up Room 641A like I suggested? Let's discuss it.


And I thought you knew something about spying, intelligence gathering and listening.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
Did you look it up? If you knew how to read simple block diagrams, you can find them there, with the specifications of the equipment.
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
My "delusions", Stumpy? You are the one who needs devices to kill Humans.

Let's stop the gun argument.

And.... what is your preferred method of stopping a criminal from enacting a crime on you?
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
Did you look it up? If you knew how to read simple block diagrams, you can find them there, with the specifications of the equipment.


Cher, I do not need to look up THOSE diagrams to understand the basic human condition me.

You act like it shocks you sensibilities that Bush would dare do such a ting. It shocks my credulity that somebody in this day and age things that the ALL do it and always have.

In all of human history the "powers that be" have always availed them selfs of the most cutting edge technology and techniques for spying listening and reading. Bar not one "power". It is silly to ever tink that it is, was or ever will be different.

The only difference is,, has been,,, and always will be, what they do with that information. But they will never stop collecting it. Never, ever, not while humans do what they do.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
With a little under one year to go before the new Commander-in-Chief takes the office of the President, anything can happen and most likely will - judging by all the Executive Orders submitted by Barack Obama to the disadvantage of the Republic and the American citizenry. As long as Obama holds the reins and believes himself to be able to do anything he wants, I would not trust the FBI, CIA, NSA, IRS, EPA, or the Department of the Interior. I would also not trust CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN and now I am even questioning the veracity of Fox News.

My iPhone records are mine alone and the FBI and any other government agency can go scratch.
The Obama run agencies screwed up when they allowed these terrorists into the country in the first place. I don't recall them admitting to their screwup and saying that it won't happen again
obama_socks
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 20, 2016
But if Apple writes that software to defeat the privacy features, even if the Obama government allows Apple to keep their own software, how do we know that somebody who has access to the software will not use it for snooping into the private business of Apple's law-abiding customers?
Would they snoop into Hillary Clinton's iPhone if she has one? How about Bernie Sander's?
It is more likely that they would access Donald Trump's or Ted Cruz's phone records because they are Republicans.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
Wouldn't be surprised to see this one end up at the Supreme Court and hopefully ending in Apple's favor. I find it kind of ridiculous to see a blithering buffoon like trump even mentioned in the same article as an innovative and highly advanced technology company. Forget trump, what does Pee-wee Herman think about all this? Who shouts the loudest is heard, I guess. Depressing...


Trump is a businessman. If he is elected President and runs the US as a business but eliminating the "crony Capitalism", that method would better serve America and make it great again.
I like Trump's forthright honesty, no holds barred. He may SEEM abrasive and loud to you, but don't forget - he is used to being the boss and he runs his corporation smoothly and successfully.
I am hoping that he is the nominee for the Republican party. Either Trump or Ted Cruz would be beneficial to getting the US back on track after the destructive agenda of the Obama thuggery.
obama_socks
1.9 / 5 (9) Feb 20, 2016
Conservatives gave us the Police State.

Since Bush, we are now all suspects in our own country.
- gkam

gkam, you're are obviously mixing up American Conservatism with Russian (Soviet) Conservatism. In Russia, the Conservatives are the Communists who want everything the way it was during the USSR years. While here in the US, it is the Liberals/Socialists who wish to change America and put us on the road to full Communism.
American Conservatives have no desire for a Police State. In the US, the Police uphold the laws of the land and bring criminals to justice. You can feel secure in your bed because we have Law Enforcement looking out for us as American citizens.
It is Russia that has the Police State, even now under President Vladimir Putin.
I think you need to understand the differences between a true Police State and one in which the cops are threatened by the criminals and have to resort to protecting their own lives.
RichManJoe
5 / 5 (2) Feb 20, 2016
We know that preserving our liberties are of higher value than preserving individual life because we send our young to fight and die to defend them. Therefore the price of liberty for the people may be a few unsolved murders - although these murders in question are already solved and the FBI, to my understanding, already has all the metadata from this and both of their personal phones.
Estevan57
5 / 5 (10) Feb 20, 2016
I was hoping you two would meet... gkam, meet obama-socks. Enjoy
obama_socks
2.5 / 5 (8) Feb 20, 2016
I do not want to get into gun ownership, which is dwindling: The new guns are being bought by the same scared and pathetic folk who already had some. The percentage of gun owners is getting smaller and more rabid.
- glam

Dwindling? You are contradicting yourself. Ummm...how exactly DO you know just WHO is buying guns? Do you go to every community and stand outside of the gun shops and gun shows to take an Exit Poll of who buys those guns and what kind of people they are?
Amazing!!
obama_socks
1 / 5 (4) Feb 20, 2016
I was hoping you two would meet... gkam, meet obama-socks. Enjoy
- Estevan 57

LOL good to see you again, E57
I have been reading the love notes between you and Thegoatofotto1923. I think Otto may have removed his Nazi shrine for Empire and Reich to Otto Skorzeny (Adolf Hitler's bodyguard) because I haven't been able to find Theghostofotto1932. As you may recall, 1932 is when Skorzeny joined the Nazi Party.
Shunsui
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 20, 2016
After the master copy of the software is destroyed, what happens to the copy on the phone in the FBI's possession?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 20, 2016
they have a legal key to force that company to break the technology as many times as they desire


Not without a court order. That's the point.

It is already within their power to force Apple to comply, and they're doing it. The only question here is whether Apple will agree to a reasonable compromize or make more trouble for themselves.
- Eikka

I think Apple will make a stand against it, but will probably lose because the courts are stacked with Obama appointees and will do FBI/Obama's bidding against Apple. I will be very surprised if Apple wins. If so, the company will show that it can't be manipulated and coerced by threats from the US gov.
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (11) Feb 20, 2016
@Shunsui Read the article, buddy.

"But the Justice Department made explicit Friday that Apple could retain custody of the software at all times."

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 20, 2016
"it also makes the ASS-umption that making said law will insure safety and insure that no criminal will be armed, by logical extension of the argument"
-----------------------------------
By "logical extension of the argument"?

That means you .lied, Stumpy. I never said it, did I? You wanted to believe it so you fooled yourself.

I do not want your guns, I just want you to keep away from me when you "need" them, . . all of you, hunters, gangs, scared folk, . . all of you.
- gkam

gkam, Germany has laws against citizens owning guns. Recently, many women were sexually assaulted by Middle Eastern men in the city of Cologne. Do you think that this would have been allowed to happen if the citizens of Cologne and other German cities were allowed to own guns for self-protection? The women were helpless and German men were too scared to protect them from those animals. What would YOU have done?
IronhorseA
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 20, 2016


I disagree for several reasons.

The U. S. government has tried to get congress to force technology companies to install "back door" access, defeating encryption technology on their devices. ...

continued...


Although the rest of the discussion has jumped the rails, what you fail to notice is that Apple put in a backdoor to this particular device so that they can update the OS in case you don't like Apple telling you which carrier to use or which apps you can use and you find away around the restrictions. Apple made the device so that it can be updated whether you have it locked or not. Hence Apple is in the same position as a safe maker. If the safe were owned by Al Capone and the FBI convinced the judge there was evidence in there, they would be within the terms of the constitution to either crack it themselves, get a locksmith, or if it is a high end safe, the actual manufacturer to open it for them.
rrrander
not rated yet Feb 20, 2016
Apple could just as easily be asked to do this again. The U.S. goes to war on the presumption of preserving freedom and liberty and people always die in wars so why would they give up this magnitude of privacy just because a few terrorists might kill a few people?
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (10) Feb 21, 2016
I agree with your view, IronhorseA. This isn't a new event for Apple, they have complied with similar requests many times before.

http://www.thedai...ore.html

It is more interesting to watch the Apple fanbois and rabid antiguvmint haters than the actual negotiations over this phone.

The courts have been a place of discussion and negotiation between government and business for decades. Get used to it, people.
Mike_Massen
1.7 / 5 (11) Feb 21, 2016
Uncle Ira perfect example, his own words
... what they do with that information.... Never, ever, not while humans do what they do
Such as excuse to bully AND make things up only for "put-down" personal attack betraying your character claiming google told you, ugh ?

Confirms you CANT tell difference between idle Claim & Evidence !

I've been on receiving end of Uncle Ira's "dark side", he didnt like my offering a peaceful perspective on gkam's veteran history & dug for dirt but, only found ugly nicks & false claims but, posted it here to "bring me down" !

Tell why your many ugly slanderous personal attacks, Eg You claim about me:-

1 Ebay account closed due to fraud
2 Fabricated my product testimonials
3 Serious mental illness
4 Meth head

Where are those actual google links ?

Why Uncle Ira, why do you snipe & bully, Where's Evidence ?

Who betrays madness; the Lying bully, or he who only defends & reminds its wrong ?

What should we do with proven Liars ?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Feb 21, 2016
"rabid antiguvmint haters"? Isn't that irregardless?

Do they REALLY hate the antiguvmunt, or are you just guessing?
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Feb 21, 2016
@EseVonNSA It is more interesting to watch the Apple fanbois and rabid antiguvmint haters than the actual negotiations over this phone.
Oh you mean that guvmint trying to instigate WWIII ? You still vomiting that narrative about the arab hitchhikers to your low-rider Bobbleheads, ese?
TechnoCreed
4.2 / 5 (10) Feb 21, 2016
@Mike_Massen
Your personal vendetta is turning you into a very boring comment writer. I found a suitable place for you; welcome to my ignored user list.
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
Uncle Ira perfect example, his own words
... what they do with that information.... Never, ever, not while humans do what they do
Such as excuse to bully AND make things up only for "put-down" personal attack betraying your character claiming google told you, ugh ?

Confirms you CANT tell difference between idle Claim & Evidence !

I've been on receiving end of Uncle Ira's "dark side".....

Tell why your many ugly slanderous personal attacks, Eg You claim about me:-

1 Ebay account closed due to fraud
2 Fabricated my product testimonials
3 Serious mental illness
4 Meth head

Where are those actual google links ?

Why Uncle Ira, why do you snipe & bully, Where's Evidence ?

Who betrays madness; the Lying bully, or he who only defends & reminds its wrong ?....

- Mike Massen

I strongly suspect that Uncle Ira is one of the legion of sock puppets belonging to Theghostofotto1923. The similarities between the two has led me to believe this.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Feb 21, 2016
I strongly suspect that Uncle Ira is one of the legion of sock puppets belonging to Theghostofotto1923. The similarities between the two has led me to believe this
@Obama
1- the ONLY similarities between them are the dislike of you and certain other trolls

2- they're not the same and you can see that in technique, semantics, timing (you can't post and then log-out, log-in as a sock and post quickly, and Ira has posted within 1-3 seconds of Otto... does he type two different comments at the same time? one comment per hand?)

3- Otto has readily admitted to certain socks typically (and unashamedly) - never once admitted to Ira

4- you have historically used more than a few socks for whatever reason... so...????

IRA provides a necessary function, IMHO, and does it with humour
AND
mistakes will be made
obama_socks
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
@Mike Massen

You should have been aware of this by now. For many years Theghostofotto1923 has used his legion of sock puppets to insult, demean, debase, intimidate, and say everything in its power to make many commenters give up in disgust and leave Phys.org, Once you have given Otto ANY information about your private life, your work, and any other bits of info that he can latch onto and use against you, he will tell lies about you, your family, and anyone you happen to mention. Otto will try to make your life online a living hell...because that is who he is and what he does in this website.
Otto doesn't want anyone to contribute or ask questions, except for those that meet his approval. And they are few.
It's best to use the IGNORE button while explaining to other commenters as to WHY you are ignoring Otto and his sock puppets. Otto has one or more mental disorders that causes him to use sock puppets to avoid being targeted by angry commenters who have been targeted by Otto.
obama_socks
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 21, 2016
I strongly suspect that Uncle Ira is one of the legion of sock puppets belonging to Theghostofotto1923. The similarities between the two has led me to believe this
@Obama
1- the ONLY similarities between them are the dislike of you and certain other trolls

2- they're not the same and you can see that in technique, semantics, timing (you can't post and then log-out, log-in as a sock and post quickly, and Ira has posted within 1-3 seconds of Otto... does he type two different comments at the same time? one comment per hand?)

3- Otto has readily admitted to certain socks typically (and unashamedly) - never once admitted to Ira

4- you have historically used more than a few socks for whatever reason... so...????

IRA provides a necessary function, IMHO, and does it with humour
AND
mistakes will be made
- Stump
I only have one user name...this one.
obama_socks
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
(cont'd)
Otto and his sock puppets have targeted me in the past and I have largely ignored it when he accused others of being me. It is Theghostofotto1923 who is the Troll of Phys.org.
It is possible that YOU Stumpy are also one of his sock puppets, and it is also possible that Otto has more than one computer, which would enable him to go back and forth from one persona to another. What function Ira provides that nobody else does may be all in your imagination. He attacks legitimate commenters...with humor. That's strange. Otto does the very same thing.
Mike_Massen
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
TechnoCreed offers
.. a suitable place for you; welcome to my ignored user list
Note *not* vendetta, reminder with Evidence but, good you get 5 from me, note I urged you put me on ignore ages back to avoid this noise

Isn't it appropriate to bring to task those who Lie/Defame/Bully & ignore guidelines ?

@Captain Stumpy
How is trying to "bring someone down" with many unsupportable claims as personal attack a "necessary function" regardless of facile humour - please advise ?

Uncle Ira claims I'm condescending but, fails to notice I give new entrants means to clarify claim either with Evidence or at least rationalised basis for dialectic, if they refuse & continue to robotically repeat idle claims & with ugly barbs & attacks do they deserve mine & your chagrin, isnt that fair ?

All can get impatient with cranks/idiots who make unsupportable claims & your language is similar to mine, why is Ira immensely arbitrary ?

Uncle Ira apologise or google links ?
Mike_Massen
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
Captain Stumpy says
IRA provides a necessary function, IMHO, and does it with humour
AND
mistakes will be made
Further to last post

Really intrigued by what you consider a "necessary function", what did the admins miss ?

Captain Stumpy, you are correct re Mistakes & hope you notice, if I make an error I apologise & I DON'T ever defame or call people "meth leads" or make up things

Uncle Ira misunderstood & only started when I offered a peaceful observation re gkam's veteran history evident army experience in technical field.

Plainly & Evidence shows, Uncle Ira mindlessly followed ugly pattern of lazy prejudice elicited by TheGhostOfOtto1923 attacking gkam re style which I admit is casual but, gkam as veteran is over 70 & doesnt deserve personal attack

Fault in general is voting affects people's integrity, to avoid low votes people more easily follow instead of lead, very sad that :-(

Captain, is it right Uncle Ira refuses to apologise for his mistakes ?
Mike_Massen
2 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
obama_socks suggests
Otto and his sock puppets have targeted me in the past and I have largely ignored it when he accused others of being me...It is possible that YOU Stumpy are also one of his sock..
Strongly doubt that !

Captain Stumpy should be commended if addressing Evidence :-)

Fwiw I'm interested in & have background in AI from uni days circa 1979 re Cybernetics/Lisp & association with retired FBI profiler who moonlighted as private investigator ~12yrs back, we collaborated on surveillance & in my capacity as electronic engineer re design of 'nice devices'. I learned key aspects of profiling software; Eg keywords, associations, timing, layout style & few other key stats...

Long before I joined here under my own name (no nick) I was looking for a 'test case' to develop a "debate script" for want of a better phrase, its run here

Otto/Uncle Ira separate but, both have socks as do Benni, bschott & others, all betray ugly prejudice & fail integrity :-(
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 21, 2016
please advise ?
@mike
people can make mistakes. not supporting what may have been wrong, but also not going to condemn what he does correct either... just like i will not condemn you for continuing to drag this whole situation into the posts
Captain, is it right Uncle Ira refuses to apologise for his mistakes ?
again, see above. that whole fight is between you two and i would prefer to be left out
You yourself must admit that Ira has outed quite a few problems
what would i do if Ira outed something i was doing? i would seriously reconsider what and how i was presenting something and what i was doing
what did the admins miss
WRT po, there are no real MODS or Admins... so i am not sure what you mean
if I make an error I apologise
the same for me
i am not he, nor is he you
it is HIS prerogative

i take the good with the bad, and overall Ira provides a function just like you do

Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 21, 2016
@Mike cont'd
TheGhostOfOtto1923 attacking gkam re style
sometimes he does, HOWEVER, the bulk of Otto's attacks against G have a legitimate gripe and are CONTENT related
this is the same point i've made to G privately, from his ThZ comments to his gun statistics, he has made it clear that his (gkam) opinion & experience trumps evidence

FWIW, yes, there are problems with the voting and the site... all of which can be dealt with by active Moderation, as i advocated here: http://phys.org/n...nal.html

until the bulk of the community actually gets behind a solution then it will continue to plague the site, this is why zeph posts here (because there are no effective MODS to eliminate his tactics)
this is also why certain other trolls and posters are prevalent here - no one to stop them

does anyone get it right 100% of the time?
no

will i condemn Ira (or you) for trying?
no

want change?
lets make it happen
see above link
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 21, 2016
@obama_socks
I disagree with your nickname so I stop reading right there !
Uncle Ira
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 21, 2016
Mike-Skippy displays his mental conditions again
Uncle Ira perfect example, his own words
what they do with that information
Blah, blah, blah, and some more blahs to make sure it attracts enough attention


Mike-Skippy whines,
What should we do with proven Liars ?
Put them in the pillory, whip them on the courthouse lawn, then for good measure we can hang them by their toes from an old live-oak tree so Mike-Skippy can come out and make faces at him.

Mike-Skippy claims,,,
I'm interested in & have background in AI from uni days circa 1979 re Cybernetics/Lisp & association with retired FBI profiler who moonlighted as private investigator 12yrs back, we collaborated on surveillance & in my capacity as electronic engineer re design of 'nice devices'
(Hooyeei, I bet that made him famous)

I learned key aspects of profiling software;Eg keywords, associations, timing, layout style & few other key stats.
Don't seem like he learned it very good, eh?
Uncle Ira
4 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
Mike-Skippy claims
Uncle Ira blah and more blahs like all the other blahs
I worked with the CIA for 24 years developing a super duper couyon detecting computer with a famous computer guy who is now a multibillionaire. We tried him out one the physorg and when we put Mike-Skippys rants, whines and blahs into him he say,

Borderline Personality Disorder
Narcissists Personality Disorder.
Histrionic Personality Disorder.
Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder.
Bipolar Personality Disorder.

(And maybe a Meth Head Disorder judging by the date/time patterns.)

My computer program was so smart it asked a very good technical question.

He asked: "Did Mike-The-Skippy spend a whole lot time locked up in a rubber room all by him self with nobody to talk to but the peoples in his head? I am asking because the foolishments he said that you feed into me make me think something like that happened to him. A lot. He thinks 'gravitas' when he plays out that act on physog"
gkam
1.6 / 5 (13) Feb 21, 2016
"HOWEVER, the bulk of Otto's attacks against G have a legitimate gripe "
--------------------------------------

Okay, Stumpy, I am going to share many of them with you, and I want you to go through them one-by-one, and tell me if that fits your angry little list. I will start with the taunting about my PTSD.

I am sure you will agree with him, that we veterans are just weak cowards in life, while the stay-at-home folk had big brave mouths, that could be heard miles away, even as they were hiding.

It was really smart of him to make those statements and put us in our place, wasn't it?

He is YOUR soul mate, Stumpy.
gkam
1.3 / 5 (12) Feb 21, 2016
Has Stumpy congratulated otto yet, on his stunning revelation of veterans who did what he was too cowardly to do? Yeah, he really put the two of us in our place, didn't he, that buddy of yours.

You are like the Repubs, who encouraged the nutbags and political vandals, and now have to deal with them.

Let's get off the personal nonsense, it works both ways.
LED Guy
3.8 / 5 (4) Feb 21, 2016
LET'S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THE ARTICLE

The justice department has no clue what they are asking and are being naïve beyond belied. In the first case, if people find out iPhones can be hacked, they won't need the code to do it. Knowledge that something is possible is enough for some groups to brute force a solution.

As someone who occasionally writes code for a living, I can't fathom writing code for a single specific iPhone that couldn't be quickly and efficiently modified to work on any phone.

Any hostile state that has any ability to conduct cyber warfare will start to work on a generic iPhone hack within minutes of an announcement that Apple complied.

The justice department might be better off cracking the cases of the memory chips and using scanning microscopy to determine what is stored on them and take it from there. Not fun, not easy and unbelievably tedious, but they can always do that for any system (iPhone, Android or computer). . .
obama_socks
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
I agree. Let us get back to the topic at hand. But first this:
I have long suspected that Theghostofotto1923 might be a spy for a foreign government that may be hostile toward the US and other western nations. OR, at the very least, Otto could be on a corporate mission to encourage some to explain the kind of work and research that we do. Otto would then make an attack on the person's credibility and knowledge base with either his Primary Name or one of his legion of sock puppets, which would then be seen by the commenter as a personal attack. Otto would be able to do this by appealing to the natural egocentricity of commenters who are specialists in their fields of science and/or Engineering, and are working in R & D.
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
(cont'd)
Those who, like myself, are in Design, Developing,Building, Testing & Improving, are just itching to brag about our accomplishments in our field of work, and Phys.org SEEMS to be a likely science website to do that kind of bragging. As my line of work is "top-secret" and I am not free to reveal anything whatsoever, I understood early on that Phys.org and other science forums are FULL of spies who identify those of us who work in R & D and read our comments, hoping that we will trip all over ourselves due to inflated egos. Some have made the error of revealing way too much, both private & profession-wise.
obama_socks
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
(cont'd)
Otto is a scientist wannabe, but Otto gets all of his science data from Wikipedia, YouTube, or some other source which he happens to click on in a hurry so that he can "Cut & Paste" the text to show how smart and sciency he is. I have searched for Otto's sources and found that he Cuts & Pastes the texts WORD FOR WORD. Occasionally, Otto might use slightly different wording & make slight changes in context in order to PRETEND that he had that data in his head all along. Otto does have a good command of English, which he uses to great effect.
Otto's attack puppet, FrankHerbert seems to have been banned by the moderators for egregious cyber sins toward commenters. It was amazing to read Otto/FrankHerbert's comments, which led me to agree with some others that Otto has very severe mental disorders. And I don't say that without justification.
TehDog
5 / 5 (9) Feb 21, 2016
Here's an article that goes into details of Apples security scheme on the iphone, might clear up some misconceptions of what can/can't be done.
Also, from what I've heard, the flaw in the scheme that would allow apple to actually do as requested has been fixed. (Not bothered to actually verify that, but sounds likely)
http://blog.crypt...one.html

As LED guy noted, there are more intrusive methods of getting at the encrypted data, but without the key, it's expensive (time and money) to try and get it back.
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
(cont'd)
However, the OTHER alternative is that Otto is plain & simply a Crank and a Troll and uses his sock puppets to down vote others and give himself FiVES in the ratings.
Otto, being the sciency wannabe that he is, is JEALOUS of real Scientists & Engineers, and it is apparent that he wishes to rid Phys.org of them because they OFFEND him. He works against the website in this way. No matter what REAL scientists & Engineers say, Otto always reverts to "Oneupmanship" so that he feeds his own ego. Otto has severe personality & mental disorders, and attacks commenters with vitriolic rage…coupled often with humor.

IF Captain Stumpy is not one of Otto's sock puppets, then he should be less critical of genuine scientists & Engineers, except to respond to any errors by calling them on those errors while defending them against obvious personal attacks from Otto & his sock puppets who are the REAL Trolls, Miscreants & Cranks in this site.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
Re: the topic of the article :-)
I believe that Apple will be incorporating and adding the new "Fingerprint" technology feature to their product(s) as an added measure for privacy issues. Such a feature will NOT be able to be defeated, except by the person whose fingerprint image has been introduced into the product's software. Since the Fingerprint privacy feature can never be defeated except by the product's owner, neither Apple nor the Feds will be able to have access unless they notify the owner of the product and he or she complies voluntarily. Otherwise, the Fed will have to access the data by force after obtaining a court order.
Estevan57
4.6 / 5 (11) Feb 21, 2016
@obama_socks -- hey, quit spamming the thread with complaining about otto, etc. It ain't polite.
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
LOL you get a 5 for that. And who says that I have to be "polite"? Are we at a garden party?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
@TehDog
Thanks for the link to the informative article. However, the date on the page is from 2014, although not everything has changed.

Here is an article that you and others may find interesting: http://9to5mac.co...ackdoor/

Like I said earlier, I don't trust the Feds who must answer to Barack Obama. (in so many words)
obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
http://9to5mac.co...ackdoor/

This is a good one.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 21, 2016
From 9to5mac, -- "The Apple ID passcode linked to the iPhone belonging to one of the San Bernardino terrorists was changed less than 24 hours after the government took possession of the device, senior Apple executives said Friday. If that hadn't happened, Apple said, a backup of the information the government was seeking may have been accessible…

The executives said the company had been in regular discussions with the government since early January, and that it proposed four different ways to recover the information the government is interested in without building a back door. One of those methods would have involved connecting the phone to a known wifi network."
Phys1
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 21, 2016
@LED
The justice department might be better off cracking the cases of the memory chips and using scanning microscopy to determine what is stored on them and take it from there.

That information will still be encrypted but could it be possible to attack it with massively parallel password cracking ?
TehDog
5 / 5 (8) Feb 21, 2016
@obama_socks
From inside o_s's link;
http://www.buzzfe...gpypaJaA

Nice link, thanks,
"The FBI worked with San Bernardino County to reset the iCloud password..."
Oh dear... :)
(To be clear, doing anything to any device that may have evidence of anything is a bad thing, I chuckled when I read that :)
IronhorseA
5 / 5 (4) Feb 21, 2016


Trump is a businessman. If he is elected President and runs the US as a business but eliminating the "crony Capitalism", that method would better serve America and make it great again.
I like Trump's forthright honesty, no holds barred. He may SEEM abrasive and loud to you, but don't forget - he is used to being the boss and he runs his corporation smoothly and successfully.



You seem to have forgotten Eastern Airlines.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (4) Feb 22, 2016
@obama_socks
From inside o_s's link;
http://www.buzzfe...gpypaJaA

Nice link, thanks,
"The FBI worked with San Bernardino County to reset the iCloud password..."
Oh dear... :)
(To be clear, doing anything to any device that may have evidence of anything is a bad thing, I chuckled when I read that :)
- TehDog

That is correct. It is just another example of a government agency (FBI) behaving like the "Keystone Kops". Totally FUBAR. Steve Jobs is having a good laugh - wherever he is.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016


Trump is a businessman. If he is elected President and runs the US as a business but eliminating the "crony Capitalism", that method would better serve America and make it great again.
I like Trump's forthright honesty, no holds barred. He may SEEM abrasive and loud to you, but don't forget - he is used to being the boss and he runs his corporation smoothly and successfully.



You seem to have forgotten Eastern Airlines.
- IronhoraeA

No I did not. But that was then and this is now. A good and knowledgeable businessman always learns from his mistakes and should vow to never repeat them. Trump has made many mistakes and he has won fortunes and also lost some. But he has learned a lot in the ensuing years and is now ready for the White House, IMO. Being elected President is a rough game and it either builds character or destroys it. If nominated and elected, he will do just fine.
gkam
1 / 5 (10) Feb 22, 2016
I have to disagree here. In business money is the only goal, and those in business know it, and naturally follow the routes which protect money. In politics, The People are most important.

When we put businessmen in politics, they protect money at the expense of people.

They are incompatible.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
It seems that an old zombie has dug herself up out of her grave again. Chilling.

I notice in another thread that she seems to be conversant in gravity waves. But even the psychopath gkam can fool some of the people some of the time.

It leaves one with the suspicion however that obamasocks is only a pass time of one of the regulars who gets resurrected from time to time because that regular feels the need to cause trouble.

Somebody piss you off again os? You're not an uber driver in michigan by chance are you?
Yeah, you have to be armed, because you are scared of me?
Well I for one are very apprehensive of psychopaths. Perhaps without them we wouldn't have the need to defend ourselves so much.

But then there would still be all those hard core tribalist gang bangers who feel it's an honor and a duty to victimize the rest of us.

At least they feel empathy for their own kind. Psychopaths feel absolutely nothing besides impatience and the satisfaction of victimizing.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
I have to disagree here. In business money is the only goal, and those in business know it, and naturally follow the routes which protect money. In politics, The People are most important.

When we put businessmen in politics, they protect money at the expense of people.

They are incompatible.
Then by your own standard USA is a failure, as all the money moved already to Eurasia
Zzzzzzzz
2.8 / 5 (11) Feb 22, 2016
"obama_socks".... any fool could have guessed that someone using this moniker would be a brain dead dumb ass begging for the ignore button. But I went ahead and read them...... and the ignore button employed once more.....
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
Throughout all of human history we were never comfortable in the wild without a weapon. Humans were the weakest of the apes, and our tech was the only thing which enabled us to live among the other animals.

At the point we were able to hunt the animals which had kept our numbers in check, humans became the principal enemy of other humans.

The wild was never a safe place for us. Even as we are drawn to it we feel the intrinsic need to carry something to defend ourselves with from predators both animal and human.

Those who claim not to feel this need are either sick in some way or other, or they are lying.

Why would they lie about such a thing? Why does the young warrior make a display of courage by puffing out his chest and taunting the enemy?

Would feeble old wannabes do the same thing because it makes them feel young like they were back in the 80s? Do their tie dyed t shirts still have the Mars symbol on them?

The need to mate begins at birth and ends at death.
Zzzzzzzz
3.2 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
And again the outrageous claim that Trump has been a successful businessman? He has indeed NOT been a very successful a businessman. If you had taken the money Trump was given by his father, and simply invested it in stock index funds, the accumulated wealth today would significantly exceed the largest estimate (his own) of Trump's worth. In other words, Trump would be a much richer man today had he simply invested in index funds, and left the business decisions to smart people.
Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf
4.8 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
However, the OTHER alternative is that Otto is plain & simply a Crank and a Troll and uses his sock puppets to down vote others and give himself FiVES in the ratings
Say otto would you like me to rebury this smelly old corpse along with the other bones and dead smelly things in your backyard?

I like to bury things. Especially smelly dead things. Arf.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
Naw then I would have to give you a ketchup and tomato paste bath like when you play with your skunk friends.

But thanks for the offer.
Phys1
5 / 5 (2) Feb 22, 2016
@Eikka - Apple has to maintain the position of holding out as long as possible, even if they have every intention of opening the particular phone. It fits in with the carefully crafted image they have created. If the government REALLY wanted to squeeze Apple they could have restarted the discussion about repatriating their billions of dollars of untaxed overseas profits.

It would be a big political mistake to connect these two issues. Taxes have to be paid unconditionally.
Phys1
5 / 5 (2) Feb 22, 2016

this is why the citizen should always be armed in the US... to insure idiots like you don't screw up our nation with your ideology and false assumptions that have NO rational basis or scientific support

So you need a gun to convince people who disagree that everyone should have a gun.
That is pretty dumb.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
I have to disagree here. In business money is the only goal, and those in business know it, and naturally follow the routes which protect money. In politics, The People are most important.

When we put businessmen in politics, they protect money at the expense of people.

They are incompatible.
- gkam

You are correct that in business, money is the only goal. And that is the natural order of things in a Capitalist society. The problem is that our past Presidents and their appointees did NOT understand business OR Capitalism. In a dedicated business, all who are employed by it, as well as the executives are in it to MAKE MONEY. The big difference between a well-run business & the US government is that the gov is not out to MAKE MONEY but to SPEND it at the expense of the American taxpayers. Infrastructure & certain expenses such as Medicare, S.S., etc. are vital & necessary. But Obama & his gang are not interested in preserving the economy, (cont'd)
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
But he has learned a lot in the ensuing years and is now ready for the White House, IMO.

"brain dead dumb ass" sums you up quite nicely.
antigoracle
4 / 5 (4) Feb 22, 2016
Now that this has turned into a gigantic public pissing contest, the only thing left to do, is congratulate both Apple and the FBI. I'm sure if Bin Laden were alive he would be proclaiming "Mission Accomplished"
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
(cont'd)
The goal for the Liberals/Marxists & Communists like Bernie Sanders & Obama, also Clinton, is to raise taxes on the working Middle-class so that their tax money will be SPENT on those who are non-productive & who refuse to work to earn a living. Sanders claims to be a Socialist. Socialism depends on Capitalism to provide the money by taxing workers of their hard-earned money to provide for those who prefer to live off the working class. THAT is Socialism.
As far as taxing the rich...the rich have many ways of staying rich. If needed, they will conserve & avoid spending their money. They will always remain rich due to their understanding of the way business works. A businessman like Trump understands that you don't squeeze your "cash cow" (taxpayers) without giving something back. Unlike Leftists who don't believe in Capitalism, Trump is well aware that it is Capitalism that runs & rules the world. (cont'd)
animah
5 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
gov is not out to MAKE MONEY but to SPEND it at the expense of the American taxpayers

Hmmm I'm just going to leave these here:

Govt job growth by President:
https://aneconomi...ion1.png

Private job growth by President:
https://aneconomi...ion1.png

GDP per capita history:
http://wolfstreet...5-Q1.png

Weekly jobless claims history:
http://www.bigfis...aims.png
Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf
4.4 / 5 (7) Feb 22, 2016
The goal for the Liberals/Marxists & Communists like Bernie Sanders & Obama, also Clinton, is to raise taxes on the working Middle-arf
Say otto maybe if I were to lift my leg and mark her a little bit it would help? At least it might teach her who's boss maybe?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
Nah doggie she already marks this site up with loads and loads of shit postings.

Don't waste your precious bodily fluids.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (7) Feb 22, 2016
(cont'd)
If you have a job; if you buy stuff from stores; if you have money in your wallet, YOU are a Capitalist even if you only have a dollar in your pocket. When you spend that dollar to buy something, you are enabling a business person to make money & to pay his bills & those who work for him, thereby enabling Capitalism.
The US gov never has been able to make a profit without spending that profit & then creating a heavy tax burden on American citizens to pay the bills that the gov has run up.
Obama believes in spending as much as possible so that the US economy suffers. Eventually, as now with too many corporations fleeing overseas to avoid the enormous taxes and regs, the loss of jobs is putting Americans out of work & many have to go on the dole to feed their families. What Obama has been doing is an atrocity. Bernie & Clinton will do more of the same.
It requires someone who understands business procedures to get the economy going again & bringing job back. (cont'd)
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
Trump is the only one with a true business acumen who will raise the US economy to what it should be.
President Vladimir Putin also understands business. Both Trump and Putin know when to cut back spending. I would even take Putin as President over Obama, Sanders & Clinton.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
I have to disagree here. In business money is the only goal, and those in business know it, and naturally follow the routes which protect money. In politics, The People are most important.

When we put businessmen in politics, they protect money at the expense of people.

They are incompatible.
Then by your own standard USA is a failure, as all the money moved already to Eurasia
- kochevnik

Good to see you, Koch. Are you in Russia or the US?
The money moved to Eurasia due to corporate flight. But the workers in those countries are well-off & doing much better than before American corporations hired them.
I see that Russia has set up a candy factory in Latvia. Capitalism again, huh? I think that Putin will encourage Russian businesses opening up more and more in the western countries...& that would be great for the Russian economy.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 22, 2016
obama_socks, if you had a nickname, would it be Meataxe?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
The USA needs a businessman like Trump as President. Ted Cruz would be good Presidential material also because he is a good role model for young Americans to emulate...and the same with Dr. Ben Carson. The three of them are great Americans.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
obama_socks, if you had a nickname, would it be Meataxe?

- gkam

LOL...I believe in taking the bull by the horns...and the truth will set you free. You get a FIVE for the meataxe suggestion.
kochevnik
3 / 5 (4) Feb 22, 2016
@Phys1 So you need a gun to convince people who disagree that everyone should have a gun.
That is pretty dumb.
Why? Are you a criminal?
@socks Capitalism, Trump is well aware that it is Capitalism that runs & rules the world. (cont'd)

Crony capitalism, that is. Trump inhered his fortune from dad, who made the $ from subsidized housing. Trump has been bankrupt four times, and required bank bailouts which in turn were taxpayer-guaranteed. Trump uses land seizure, urging the government to destroy neighborhoods so he can build skyscrapers
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016

this is why the citizen should always be armed in the US... to insure idiots like you don't screw up our nation with your ideology and false assumptions that have NO rational basis or scientific support

So you need a gun to convince people who disagree that everyone should have a gun.
That is pretty dumb.
- Phys1

There are 2 types of citizen; one is presumably honest & Law abiding & is interested in self & family protection. The other is the criminal element in society whose goal is to inflict as much pain & damage, even death on the Law-abiding citizen. The Law abider keeps & owns guns only for protection, while the criminal keeps a gun to remove that protection, as well as property.
The current President is obviously CONFUSED as to the identity of those whose goal is protection & those who wish to use a gun to end life & steal property. Obama the Socialist intends to treat both the law abider & the criminal as one and the same. He can't tell the differences.
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
" Trump uses land seizure, urging the government to destroy neighborhoods so he can build skyscrapers"
------------------------------------------------

And Vladie Putin, Vlad I Czar of all NovoRossia, just stages a brutal invasion.

That old Pootie, . . what a card!
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
@Phys1 So you need a gun to convince people who disagree that everyone should have a gun.
That is pretty dumb.
Why? Are you a criminal?
@socks Capitalism, Trump is well aware that it is Capitalism that runs & rules the world. (cont'd)

Crony capitalism, that is. Trump inhered his fortune from dad, who made the $ from subsidized housing. Trump has been bankrupt four times, and required bank bailouts which in turn were taxpayer-guaranteed. Trump uses land seizure, urging the government to destroy neighborhoods so he can build skyscrapers
- Koch
Obama the Socialist has been practicing "crony Capitalism" for the past 7 years with all the bank & solar bailouts & driving businesses overseas due to exorbitant taxes. Trump may have inherited his wealth & made mistakes, but he has retained his knowledge of what NOT to do...& that knowledge is a valuable commodity to end the downturn of the US economy.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
(cont'd)
Ted Cruz & others, particularly Socialists & Communists don't have that knowledge, but will need to learn ONE THE JOB. America cannot wait for a President to learn the ins and outs of REAL Capitalism while the country continues to head for the pits. We need a man who knows EXACTLY what to do immediately...not at some distant point down the road.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2016
" Trump uses land seizure, urging the government to destroy neighborhoods so he can build skyscrapers"
------------------------------------------------

And Vladie Putin, Vlad I Czar of all NovoRossia, just stages a brutal invasion.

That old Pootie, . . what a card!
- glam

Yes he did invade Crimea. And the alleged bad treatment of the Tatars in Crimea is abominable by social standards. But look at all the good that Putin has done. He is not a Czar and he may need some perfecting. But the oligarchs of Russia are what keeps the Russian economy going, even though at least half of them are crooks. The nation has come a long way since the Soviet rule. So give Putin some credit for not following in the footsteps of Stalin. His opposition needs to walk on eggshells, that is true. But as Putin gets older & mellows, he might change for the better as he realizes that he can't live forever.
gkam
1 / 5 (9) Feb 22, 2016
Oh, . well, yeah, sure, . . we miss them, . . . and that clown Beria, he could sure tell a joke!
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2016
@gkam
If you are referring to Lavrentiy Beria you will surely thank Heaven that Beria is dead and buried. He was a favored apparatchik of Joseph Stalin and both gave the term, "Police state" a whole new meaning. A thought came to me that the "Black Lives Matter" crowd in the US don't know what a REAL Police state is unless they have someone like Beria in charge of it.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (10) Feb 22, 2016
Yup. They had a hard time deciding how to get rid of him without him incriminating the entire group!
kochevnik
1 / 5 (7) Feb 22, 2016
Yes he did invade Crimea. And the alleged bad treatment of the Tatars in Crimea is abominable by social standards.
We did not invade Crimea. We have a naval base there. It has been Russian since Catherine the Great. One thing I notice is that zionists are trying to split Russia.with your king of the psychopaths, Soros. That will only ultimately result in Israel being split into atoms
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 22, 2016
So you need a gun to convince people who disagree that everyone should have a gun.
That is pretty dumb
@Phys1
that's not what it says: read it again- now consider where the power of the gov't comes from (the people)

if the people disarm themselves then what would keep the gov't from simply adopting the self servicing policies or the inconsistent ideological non-sense of the idiots?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

the gov't doesn't fear a vote any more than it fears popcorn unless it is fully aware that at any time the populace can decide to replace it and it has the power to do so - this is one purpose of the 2nd amendment, the other being drawn from the English Bill of Rights and the right to hunt & protect oneself

I agree with Otto
Even as we are drawn to it we feel the intrinsic need to carry something to defend ourselves with from predators both animal and human.

Those who claim not to feel this need are either sick in some way or other, or they are lying
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Feb 23, 2016
@Stumpy The government does not fear the people. The people who bribed the government into running their private racket fear the people
kochevnik
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 23, 2016
Crimean Tatars are just Turks. Zionists want to inflate their status to something exalted, probably for their collaboration with Hitler. Notice real Tatars are silent
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (7) Feb 23, 2016
@Stumpy The government does not fear the people. The people who bribed the government into running their private racket fear the people
you *might* have something there kochevnik, but it would also be considered speculation, IMHO

victoryengineer
5 / 5 (2) Feb 23, 2016
Both sides have truly valid points. However, if the outcome is that privacy rights prevail, ALL terrorists and other evil doers will be using iphones. If Apple is forced to unlock the phone, anonymity of criminals phones will not be a given and I will no longer expect complete privacy where my phone is concerned.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (11) Feb 23, 2016
"Those who claim not to feel this need are either sick in some way or other, or they are lying "
------------------------------------

Or, perhaps they are secure in themselves, something apparently which has not occurred to you SCARED folk.

otto and others even hide their names and identity, out of FEAR. So who is he to blabber?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (11) Feb 23, 2016
LOL...I believe in taking the bull by the horns...and the truth will set you free. You get a FIVE for the meataxe suggestion
-Is this the same thing as when you described how you used to have sex up against your stove? I'm pretty sure that was way off topic as well.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 23, 2016
Crimean Tatars are just Turks.

You can have a variety of motivations for saying this.
1) You think Tatars should live in Turkey.
2) You think the Crimea belongs to Turkey.
3) Both of the above.
4) The Tatars arrived _after_ Russia took the Crimea from Turkey attracted by the Russian economy. Basically this is the argument that some Zionists use to take the West-Bank
Which one is it?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (10) Feb 23, 2016
"Those who claim not to feel this need are either sick in some way or other, or they are lying "
Or, perhaps they are secure in themselves, something apparently which has not occurred to you SCARED folk.
Or, in your case we know you are sick AND you are lying.

It's what you do.
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Feb 23, 2016
[infantile sociological model skipped]
The current President is obviously CONFUSED as to the identity of those whose goal is protection & those who wish to use a gun to end life & steal property. Obama the Socialist intends to treat both the law abider & the criminal as one and the same. He can't tell the differences

That is a lie. This is what he intends to do
"In addition to expanding and bolstering the background check system to cover sales that take place online and at gun shows, Obama said the administration will provide more funding for mental health treatment, FBI staff and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives agents."
http://edition.cn...dex.html
Of course, the criminal Republican party opposes this.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 23, 2016
A thought came to me

A miracle ? No, false alarm.
that the "Black Lives Matter" crowd in the US don't know what a REAL Police state is unless they have someone like Beria in charge of it.

Or until they are facing a police force that uses them for shooting practice.
You are a sick individual, as is already clear from your tea party nick.
obama_socks
3 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2016
Yes he did invade Crimea. And the alleged bad treatment of the Tatars in Crimea is abominable by social standards.
We did not invade Crimea. We have a naval base there. It has been Russian since Catherine the Great. One thing I notice is that zionists are trying to split Russia.with your king of the psychopaths, Soros. That will only ultimately result in Israel being split into atoms
- Kochevnik

While it is true that the Russian Federation has a base in Севасто́поль, the rest of Crimea still remains a legitimate territory of Ukraine since the peninsula was awarded to Ukraine by Khrushev himself and, aside from the illegitimate referendum to garner votes from the Russian citizenry, the peninsula will always belong to Ukraine since the peninsula is connected to Ukraine's land mass and not to Russia.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 25, 2016
the peninsula will always belong to Ukraine since the peninsula is connected to Ukraine's land mass and not to Russia
So this would also mean that the UP belongs to Wisconsin and not michigan.

This cracked logic is your SOP yes?

 "Photons do not experience gravitational pull in general...A photon is affected by gravitational forces only if those forces are strong enough to have any effect on the photon"

-I'm going to enjoy reposting your past wisdom pussytard.
gkam
1 / 5 (6) Feb 25, 2016
"-I'm going to enjoy reposting your past wisdom pussytard."
------------------------------
How do we get rid of the lurkers, snipers, vandals, and others who cower behind their phony names just to attack others? Isn't there some high-school site in which they would feel more at home?

This discussion is important because it is on the government/person interface, and can determine what the government thinks is acceptable. Some of us who worked with secure communications are against the government having such power, for reasons obvious to us.

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