More people in Europe are dying than are being born

January 14, 2016

More people in Europe are dying than are being born, according to a new report co-authored by a Texas A&M University demographer. In contrast, births exceed deaths, by significant margins, in Texas and elsewhere in the U.S., with few exceptions.

Texas A&M Professor of Sociology Dudley Poston, along with Professor Kenneth Johnson, University of New Hampshire, and Professor Layton Field, Mount St. Mary's University, published their findings in Population and Development Review this month.

The researchers find that 17 European nations have more dying in them than are being born (natural decrease), including three of Europe's more populous nations: Russia, Germany and Italy. In contrast, in the U.S. and in the state of Texas, births exceed deaths by a substantial margin.

"In 2013 in Texas, for example, there were over 387,000 births compared to just over 179,000 deaths," says Poston. "The only two in the U.S. with more deaths than births are the coal mining state of West Virginia and the forest product state of Maine."

The research focuses on the prevalence and dynamics of natural decrease in the counties and county-equivalents of Europe and the United States in the first decade of the 21st century (2000-2009).

Findings reveal that 58 percent of the 1,391 counties of Europe had more deaths than births compared to just 28 percent of the 3,141 counties of the U.S.

In Texas, just 24 percent of the state's 254 counties had more deaths than births. And in Texas between 2010 and 2014, 27 percent of the 254 counties had more deaths than births.

The researchers find that in Europe, deaths exceeded births in most of the counties of Germany, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, as well as in Sweden and the Baltic States. Further south, natural decrease is found occurring in the majority of the counties of Greece, Portugal and Italy.

Though natural decrease was common in much of Europe, findings show that's far from universal. Natural increase (more births than deaths) is widespread in Ireland, Cyprus, Iceland, Lichtenstein and Luxembourg. Natural increase is also evident in broad regions of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, United Kingdom and Norway.

In the U.S., deaths exceed births most significantly in a north-sound band from the Dakotas through Nebraska, Kansas and Oklahoma, down to central Texas. Poston and his colleagues Johnson and Field note that this natural decrease can be attributed to the predominance of agriculture and youth adult outmigration. Also natural decrease is found in retirement destinations in Florida, Arizona and Texas due to a substantial inflow of older adults. Other states with higher than rates include North Dakota, Montana, Maine and West Virginia; many other U.S. states have little, if any, natural decrease.

"Natural decrease is much more common in Europe than in the U.S because its population is older, fertility rates are lower and there are fewer women of child-bearing age," Poston and his colleagues explain. "Natural decrease is a major policy concern because it drains the demographic resilience from a region diminishing its economic viability and competitiveness."

Explore further: Researchers find faster population growth in Virginia cities

More information: Kenneth M. Johnson et al. More Deaths Than Births: Subnational Natural Decrease in Europe and the United States, Population and Development Review (2015). DOI: 10.1111/j.1728-4457.2015.00089.x

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krundoloss
4.4 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2016
It is logical to assume that many areas with Natural Decrease are related to the former status of the area. For example, if an area was once booming with a particular industry, then later that industry declines, then many people choose to move from these areas to start a family, and the ones that stay in that area age and die. Natural Decrease seems more related to the aging population of that area, and the simple fact that younger, child bearing age adults choose to leave that area.

I for one hope there is a slowdown in child births at time progresses, so that we can delay all the inevitable problems associated with Overpopulation. Once we exceed our capability to produce food and water, its going to be a big problem. And everyone knows that when you have strained resources, conflict is not far behind. I think limiting the number of children people have is a much more graceful approach to population control, don't you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (9) Jan 14, 2016
No, the growth rate is directly related to religion. In regions where most people have given up religion, people understand that they are responsible for planning their own futures.

Women are not coerced into getting married. They also have the freedom to decide how many children they will have.

Religion is responsible for growth beyond the capacity of a region to support it; ie overpopulation.
F111F
4.2 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2016
No, the growth rate is directly related to religion. In regions where most people have given up religion, people understand that they are responsible for planning their own futures.

Women are not coerced into getting married. They also have the freedom to decide how many children they will have.

Religion is responsible for growth beyond the capacity of a region to support it; ie overpopulation.

How do you explain the growth of population in the US Northeast which has the lowest rate of church attendance? Only portions of Maine are losing population.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 14, 2016
Was there an F-111F?
691Boat
5 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2016
For being a supposed Air Force veteran, you sure lack knowledge regarding the planes in your own branch, not to mention the inability to perform a simple google search.
https://en.wikipe...Aardvark
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 14, 2016
I wanted to hear from F111F, not you. I can find the histories of all of them. I worked on some of the first four, including 766, the first one made. I was there when they sold that turkey to Congressmen, not allowing any of us who worked on it to talk to them.
691Boat
5 / 5 (6) Jan 14, 2016
Was there an F-111F?

So the purpose of this was.......?
gkam
1 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2016
To connect with an F-111F troop - off this site.
Roderick
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2016
Ghost of Otto,

Your claim seems dubious. Look at the European map. Italian women are less emancipated than French women, yet French birth rates are quite a bit higher (attributed partly to massive French subsidies for dependents).
RMQ
3.3 / 5 (3) Jan 14, 2016
Some cultures separate sex from its biological function of reproduction. In doing so, the rates of stds and divorce increase, and obviously less children... Hispanics, Arabics, Indians and some other groups are family oriented, friend oriented, other cultures seem more technology oriented, financially oriented, etc. Those emphasis of some cultures create differences at many levels. And yes religions and spiritual practices are very important to shape a culture.
krundoloss
4.5 / 5 (4) Jan 15, 2016
In cultures where having more children is considering a kind of familial and spritual wealth, regardless of the health and success of the offspring, leads to big problems when scaled up. I live in the US and I have talked to many responsible adults who do not want to have children until they are financially and domestically ready to do so. And then if they want another child, they plan for that as well. What would help in so many places is to provide birth control products to developing and overpopulated areas. Get over this idea that birth control = killing babies. Its not. It is better to have 2 children, successful, happy and well-provided-for, than to have 8 starving children, wouldn't you agree?
viko_mx
1.4 / 5 (9) Jan 15, 2016
This is the result of social engineering of rebels against God's order because of their proud and vanity, thanks to which many people turned away from the saving faith in the living and holy God, who is the only one absolute source of the truth, the love and the life. The result is selfish, hedonistic and profligate society living according the principles of the chaos, who dies first spiritually and then physically. Main feature of such a society is corruption.
kochevnik
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 15, 2016
Women are very calculating, and tend to have exactly the children they can afford in price and time. Religion retardation adds distorted priorities to their calculations, such as skyfaries with gargantuan penises and some tribal manifesto
Whydening Gyre
4.6 / 5 (10) Jan 15, 2016
This is the result of social engineering of rebels against God's order because of their proud and vanity, thanks to which many people turned away from the saving faith in the living and holy God, who is the only one absolute source of the truth, the love and the life. The result is selfish, hedonistic and profligate society living according the principles of the chaos, who dies first spiritually and then physically. Main feature of such a society is corruption.

Well... THAT certainly puts a face on the topic.... (not)
Pure blabber, Viko. Absolutely no contribution the conversation at hand.
krundoloss
5 / 5 (2) Jan 15, 2016
One of the negative aspects of religion is that it uses ideas that worked well, thousands of years ago. Most of the ideas/rules/words to live by are timeless and true. However, we have reached a time when "Be fruitful and Multiply", might not be the best advice. Don't get me wrong, the overpopulation problem will get solved, I just prefer it get solved with wise policies and wise decisions instead of War, disease and famine.
promile
Jan 15, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 15, 2016
Ghost of Otto,

Your claim seems dubious. Look at the European map. Italian women are less emancipated than French women, yet French birth rates are quite a bit higher (attributed partly to massive French subsidies for dependents).
Your example seems dubious. And its certainly not my claim.
http://churchands...eligion/

-Its common knowledge.

The religions which have survived to the present are the ones which are best at outgrowing and overrunning their less prolific counterparts. Through trial and error they have evolved into brutal social machines specialized for this task.

Hitchens hated mother teresa because as agent of the church she supported the very conditions which created impoverishment in the first place. The church forbids contraception as well as all forms of non-procreative sex, and wants women to devote all their time to making and raising babies.

This is written into all the religious books.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (6) Jan 15, 2016
As mother teresa would say,
This is the result of social engineering of rebels against God's order because of their proud and vanity, thanks to which many people turned away from the saving faith in the living and holy God
-IOW if everybody believed in the xian god with all their heart and mind and will then he would provide for however many babies women could bear, and everybody would be happy have enough to eat and places to live and satisfying jobs and etcetc.

ALL RELIGIONS promise this. It is a matter of the lives of their children, that they reject the temptations of other religions, and above all apostasy, or their CHILDREN will DIE.

You see why they are all so willing to kill and die in order to fill up the earth with true believers?

Moderates believe this as well, no matter what they say. They live in a constant state of angst that they are not following the letter of the Law, and that their souls and the souls of their loved ones will be lost.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 15, 2016
Religious moderation is only ever temporary. The books never change, and they make very clear what true devotion requires. Moderation is a luxury of underpopulated regions; as religions do their work, and pops grow past the point of stability, and the children begin to suffer, fanaticism again emerges.

The holy land must again be purged because god demands it. As gideon observed, gods anger is the result of not keeping the holy land clean in the first place.
gkam
2 / 5 (4) Jan 15, 2016
That sounds like anybody with a fixation.

Pathetic.

Eikka
5 / 5 (1) Jan 15, 2016
People, especially men, start to die off when they're about 70 - 75 which is the average life expectancy in many places.

Guess what happened 70 years ago? World war 2 ended, troops went home, had lots of babies all at the same time for several years.

The decline in births vs deaths is directly connected to the die-off of the first baby boomer generation which is now reaching the end of its statistical life. They've lived healthier for longer than anyone in history, but now the old age is catching up with inevitable decline in health, resulting in disease and cancer, and they're all dying roughly at the same time.

But that just means the population pyramid is normalizing out of the great bulge of the post-war generations. Once they've gone through, the birth rate turns back to positive again.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2016
The holy land must again be purged because god demands it. As gideon observed, gods anger is the result of not keeping the holy land clean in the first place.
Religion is the bastard child of original knowledge now lost to humans because they are too primitive to understand the maths that create spacetime and gravity. So they misinterpret a codex tetragrammon for the 72 ways to make an artifical black hole as a fairy tale book called the bible. Moreover whereas Nimrod quested to become a god himself by acquiring knowledge, modern monkey men are satisfied in worshiping him as Horus, molloch, osirus, Dionysus, jesus etc all

The original knowledge prescribes how tom make a god or king through sacred blood rituals, akin to the way bees make royal jelly to make a queen. It also prescribes ways to increase longevity by consumption of prepared semen, now done by the catholics in the act of communion
rms
5 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2016
Human numbers are too large for sustainable existence, and still increasing. Under these circumstances, low birth rates in part of the world are to be encouraged. We should not let narrow selfish concerns, such as competing with other countries, distract us from this.

When the human population gets down to one billion, we might consider measures to encourage births so as to stabilize it.
viko_mx
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
I do not believe intelligent person to have difficulty to realize that evolution would be possible only if the random mutations have more positive than negative effects on organisms? Especially for fictional billion of years. However such idea is sharply at odds with observed from us reality . Therefore, all species of the living organisms without exception have mechanisms for restoration of their original DNA and its structural integrity. If you make random changes in machine with complex structure and functionality, how long it will continue to function? If you fill the memory of a computer with random numbers, what is the chance ever to perform meaningful action? How decoder of the processor will interpret these random numbers? This is why programs are written by programmers who use actively their intellect and knowledge for the purpose. The same is with the biological programs recorded in DNA.
viko_mx
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
The men does never rely on chance to achieve its goals. It creates goods by using matter and energy in controlled manner by preliminary plan according to their ideas and developed technology.
So when the apologists of evolution declare that the faith in the true living God, Who is the only source of the truth, the love and the life, and emotionally attacking the believers in Him, it sounds not serious and adequate to reality.
viko_mx
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
...So when the apologists of evolution declare that the faith in the true living God, Who is the only source of the truth, the love and the life, have nothing to do with the science, and emotionally attacking the believers in Him, it sounds not serious and adequate to reality....

my2cts
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
This is the result of social engineering of rebels against God's order because of their proud and vanity, thanks to which many people turned away from the saving faith in the living and holy God, who is the only one absolute source of the truth, the love and the life. The result is selfish, hedonistic and profligate society living according the principles of the chaos, who dies first spiritually and then physically. Main feature of such a society is corruption.

Every sperm is sacred, if a sperm is wasted, God is quite Irate !
https://www.youtu...pLVStPbk
my2cts
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
...So when the apologists of evolution declare that the faith in the true living God, Who is the only source of the truth, the love and the life, have nothing to do with the science, and emotionally attacking the believers in Him, it sounds not serious and adequate to reality....


Tell us more about your god who once nearly exterminated life on earth, but became nice after inseminating an innocent girl and then killing his own son, while putting the blame on everyone else?
It sounds like a wonderful scientific breakthrough. Good news !
viko_mx
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
God destroy only the destroyers of life in the name of life after He warned these people what intend to do and was long patient enough to wait them to change for the better. And to start to live by the principles of life and harmony. He has that right once gave us the life and all of what we have need, and can judge uprightly before the entire universe.
my2cts
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016

Every sperm is sacred, if a sperm is wasted, God is quite Irate !
https://www.youtu...pLVStPbk

Either some people here have no sense of humour OR prophet viko_mx has created a trinity of sockpuppets to downvote my wonderful post.
my2cts
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 16, 2016
God destroy only the destroyers of life in the name of life after He warned these people what intend to do and was long patient enough to wait them to change for the better. And to start to live by the principles of life and harmony.

That's what every serial killer says: "I only kill those who deserve to die, when I lose my patience".
If we would all be like that, this place would be hell.
You worship a monster.
viko_mx
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
You have strange logic. if you are the gardener will let the weeds to develop and to prevent the development of the useful plants in the garden that give good fruit? Humbled yourself. It is useful for the reason.
my2cts
3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
You have strange logic. if you are the gardener will let the weeds to develop and to prevent the development of the useful plants in the garden that give good fruit? Humbled yourself. It is useful for the reason.

You reason like the serial killer that you worship.
If you think of people like weeds, then obviously that is a small step.
kochevnik
1.3 / 5 (3) Jan 16, 2016
Currency is being withdrawn while USA is partying. It is direct outcome of deleveraging $14quadrillion oil derivatives. USA currency velocity at historic low. So planet is experiencing deflation while USA starts more wars to steal gold. Unfortunately USA has no gold as their USA-caused global deflation (being reserve currency) priced gold at record low along with all commodities. Chinese/Russia already stock gold. China already owns 1/3 USA corporate property. Once USA dollar collapses, yanks must speak Mandarin to work
viko_mx
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 16, 2016
Do not you understand analogies? If the evil that sow ruin and decay is left to grow and develop, how could the righteousness and the life in the universe to triumph? Тhe reason for the existence of the universe is life in it. Without it, its existence is pointless.

In this universe, the Creator determines what is good and what is evil and no one else. He sets the moral standard that is in harmony with the life, that He created and the God's order in the universe, which support this life.
kochevnik
5 / 5 (1) Jan 16, 2016
In this universe, the Creator determines what is good and what is evil and no one else.
Wrong. The word evil is translated from the Ancient Greek word ubel, which is equivalent to the word azazel in hebrew. Azazel was believed to be a demi-God cast down by the gods for his actions against humanity and doomed to wander the Earth never to escape until the end of time. It is a metaphor for light which is trapped in a knot. In other words, inertia or matter
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 16, 2016
People, especially men, start to die off when they're about 70 - 75 which is the average life expectancy in many places
The life expectancy throughout the entire pleistocene was about 26 years. This is when our reproductive frequency was established in the context of tropical attrition rates.

Since then we have managed to eliminate the predators which were keeping our numbers in check. Overpopulation has been a chronic problem ever since.
Guess what happened 70 years ago? World war 2 ended, troops went home, had lots of babies all at the same time for several years.

The decline in births vs deaths is directly connected to the die-off of the first baby boomer generation which is now reaching the end of its statistical life
It also directly correlates with the decline of religiosity in the west, culminating in legalized abortion in 1973.

Since then over ONE BILLION abortions have occurred. Those people, their children and grandchildren were never born.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (8) Jan 16, 2016
mechanisms for restoration of their original DNA and its structural integrity
Well god screwed that one up as well given the rate of genetic deformity and disease.

But you guys have your answer to that - original sin which corrupted the species and made us mortal. Right?
If the evil that sow ruin and decay is left to grow and develop
There is nothing more evil than restricting women to making babies until it kills them.

There is nothing more evil than bringing babies into an overcrowded world and condemning them to suffer and starve and die on the battlefield.

There is NOTHING more EVIL than convincing children that people who dont believe in their particular god cannot be good, thereby condemning those children to a lifetime of bigotry and hatred.

But again you have your answer - its not hatred but love, a convenient way of having good feelings instead of bad when you shun, persecute, and oust unbelievers from your communities.

Its for their own good yes?
my2cts
3.7 / 5 (9) Jan 16, 2016
Do not you understand analogies? If the evil that sow ruin and decay is left to grow and develop, how could the righteousness and the life in the universe to triumph? Тhe reason for the existence of the universe is life in it. Without it, its existence is pointless.

In this universe, the Creator determines what is good and what is evil and no one else. He sets the moral standard that is in harmony with the life, that He created and the God's order in the universe, which support this life.

That's terrible news. A mass murderer who sets the moral standard.
O yes, I see the analogy quite clearly.
You have an absolutely dangerous line of reasoning.
You are just one step away from helping your god to do the garden.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (8) Jan 16, 2016
If religions did not insist on trying to outgrow and overrun each other there would be room and resources for everyone and thus little need for abortion. Because you see abortion is an effective form of population control. Abortion is prenatal infanticide. The necessity for it is the fault of religion. It is preferable to having children starve and die in the street (but not of course to mother teresa) or dying on the battlefield.

But religions need martyrs dont they? Jesus was the worlds premier martyr. Martyrs convince believers that their belief is serious business indeed. These people must be giving their lives for very good reasons yes?

1/3 of conceptions are aborted in russia, 1/5 in the US. This, in addition to family planning, contraception, and the very real freedom of women to choose what they want to do with their own lives, can explain the stabilization of the birthrate in the west.
http://www.johnst...5pd.html
Eikka
5 / 5 (3) Jan 16, 2016
if you are the gardener will let the weeds to develop and to prevent the development of the useful plants in the garden that give good fruit?


Who's to say what is a weed and what is not?

That god has some purpose which defines what is useful and "fruit bearing" is just the same as saying god treats people as instruments rather than as living beings with a free will. In reality, what you identify as god's purpose is your own purpose and will dressed in the clothes of God.

The god that can be named is not the real god - it's an idol of your own making.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (10) Jan 16, 2016
if you are the gardener will let the weeds to develop and to prevent the development of the useful plants in the garden that give good fruit?
Well this is just what gideon said isnt it viko? Ethnic cleansing is EVIL except when the holy books demand it.

But lets look at the source...

24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.

""The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

29 "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest." matt13

"A Time to sow and a Time to reap." ecc3

-I suppose pogroms are easier when overpopulation makes it necessary.

"Everything is beautiful in its own Time." ecc3

There is no evil that god has not sanctioned in his name.
vlisivka
3 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2016
Reduce of birth rate is caused by soap. It reduces smell of woman. Properly smelling woman makes men dumb, so he will not think is children as necessary.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (1) Jan 16, 2016
World being overrun with people like vietvet, who utter fail to comprehend economics or bathing
matt_s
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 16, 2016
"You have strange logic. if you are the gardener will let the weeds to develop and to prevent the development of the useful plants in the garden that give good fruit?"

-What about all the innocent firstborn children of Egypt? -God ordered them murdered. Infact, he hardened Pharaoh's heart to ENSURE they would be murdered.
-What about all the innocent children of Bethlehem Herod slew? -God ensured they'd be murdered by providing the circumstances.
-What about the 40 kids that made fun of his prophets hair? -Oh, God just brought out some bears and slew them. Cause that makes sense.
-What about Job children? - Oh, God just allowed them to be killed cause the devil bet him.
-What about all the people in Canaan with the same disposition as Rahab? Not even a chance. God ordered all of them killed. Men, women, children. No conversion attempt.

Thought experiment. What is the most sinful anything could possibly be? Answer. An omniscient, omnipotent being. Sins of omission.

tblakely1357
2.8 / 5 (8) Jan 16, 2016
Well that's what happens when you embrace soulless socialism, the citizens lose the will to reproduce. Actually, it's a result of too easy a lifestyle. If you don't need children to survive as you did in the past and have the option to have sex and not get pregnant, then it should come as no surprise that fewer and fewer people have children since they are a significant financial and emotional outlay. Plus if you believe as most lefties due that there are 'too' many people for the planet to support the outcome is obvious.

But not to worry, Europeans are being replaced by a culture that has no problem with reproducing. Ta ta, Europe and most other western nations which will make lefties happy.
gkam
2.1 / 5 (7) Jan 16, 2016
tblakeley must still be living in1357.
F111F
5 / 5 (4) Jan 16, 2016
To connect with an F-111F troop - off this site.

Was stationed at Cannon, RAF Upper Heyford, and RAF Lakenheath on the D, E, and F models, respectively. Ran the 522nd, 55th, and 493rd AMUs, again respectively.
NIPSZX
5 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2016
I have to admit, above are the strangest off topic comments I have ever read. From the Air Force chat room to God's existence. What does any of that actually have to do with the birthrate vs death rate in Europe? I think it is mostly technology's doings with the internet and many more things for millennials to do besides pro-create. When I read the article I thought more of the results instead of the causes. It would seem that the geographical area's that have a higher death rate to birthrate ratio would probably have the cheapest and lowest price real estate. I also wondered what factors immigrants have on the ratio. Are immigrants factored into the equation also. I wonder if more immigrants have babies born in the their new countries or die at a faster clip ratio. I would guess that legal immigrants are factored in to the ratio and illegals are not.
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 17, 2016
Well that's what happens when you embrace soulless socialism, the citizens lose the will to reproduce.
Quite the opposite effect with USA minorities, many who are paid to have as many bastard children as their uteruses can bear
viko_mx
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 17, 2016
@TheGhostofOtto1923

There can exist different point of views on a particular issue or problem, thanks to human imagination and uncertain moral standards, which tend to change over time according to the fashion. But always only one of them is the right, and the others are wrong. This one which is consistent with the absolutes that define and maintain the order in the universe, thanks to which the live exist and abides in it.
I'm sure that lucifer also have the excuse before himself for his iniquity and hatred to God and the people who are created in God's image and likeness. But not lucifer has created and maintains the order in the universe and life in it to determine the rules. The right for this has only the Creator, which is Holy.
viko_mx
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 17, 2016
I am reminding to those who not paid attention in math lessons that the negation of the negative trends in society have a positive effect on it. The destruction of those who destroy life has a positive effect on life in the universe, which is created by the Creator because of life in it. Otherwise, its existence does not make sense.
God is all powerful and self sufficient, which means that even if all created beings accidental or not to unite against Him, can not prevent His intentions. In this situation, life would only be possible if God is holy and He is.
What is the reason to be introduces God's laws, if people will not be judged according to this laws, if they knowingly violate them? God's laws maintain God's order in the universe on which are relying life in it.Think about this.
my2cts
2 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2016
Well that's what happens when you embrace soulless socialism, the citizens lose the will to reproduce.
Quite the opposite effect with USA minorities, many who are paid to have as many bastard children as their uteruses can bear

Kochevnik, are you one of those eastern european nazi's?
my2cts
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 17, 2016
It is not necessary to remind to those who paid attention in math lessons that the negation of the negative trends in society have a positive effect on it. The destruction of those who destroy life has a positive effect on life in the universe, which is created by the Creator because of life in it. Otherwise, its existence does not make sense.
God is all powerful and self sufficient, which means that even if all created beings accidental or not to unite against Him, can not prevent His intentions. In this situation, life would only be possible if God is holy and He is.
What is the reason to be introduces God's laws, if people will not be judged according to this laws, if they knowingly violate them? God's laws maintain God's order in the universe on which are relying life in it.Think about this.

Yes, but your god remains a mass murderer who raped a young girl and then killed his son, blaming us. You are worshipping a monster. Stockholm syndrome induced by delusion.
viko_mx
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 17, 2016
Not God killed His Son but the servants of lucifer who preferеd Pilate to release the criminal instead the holy Son of God, because in this criminal they recognize themselves.
my2cts
2 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2016
Not God killed His Son but the servants of lucifer who preferеd Pilate to release the criminal instead the holy Son of God, because in this criminal they recognize themselves.

If it had been my son I would have done everything in my omnipotence to stop those weeds. I wouldn't lean back and wash my hands of it. And why am I to blame? I oppose the death penalty.
Eikka
not rated yet Jan 17, 2016
Not God killed His Son but the servants of lucifer who preferеd Pilate to release the criminal instead the holy Son of God, because in this criminal they recognize themselves.


Lucifer, who was created and is sustained by God's omnipotence.

Can't see the contradiction? That's because you don't understand who or what Satan/Lucifer actually is. People who believe as you do are like criminals, who at the point of finding themselves in prison do not take account and responsibility of their own deeds, but blame the prosecutor for convinving the judge of their guilt.

When God asked Adam why he ate the forbidden fruit, he passed the blame onto Eve, and Eve passed the blame onto the Snake, but the snake didn't say anything. It probably winked.

You see, the real original sin wasn't the disobedience of man, but the reluctance to admit responsibility. The true God can take responsibility for killing his own son - the false will not.
EnsignFlandry
1 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2016
Women are very calculating, and tend to have exactly the children they can afford in price and time. Religion retardation adds distorted priorities to their calculations, such as skyfaries with gargantuan penises and some tribal manifesto


Women can afford more children today than in the past, when most children were lucky to make it to adulthood. Economics has made it possible for them to live without husbands, and men don't want wives, but girlfriends. Result is fewer marriages and children. Europe is dying, with Muslim population forming a greater and greater portion of the population.
Max5000
not rated yet Jan 17, 2016
What a nonsense article. The EU population is growing not getting smaller, the total amount is first of all the number that matters. Now even having moved over 508 million people while it was well under 490 million some years ago. Croatia did join but has a population of less then 5 million.

On top of this some of these counties/provencis, etc are getting smaller because a new large move to cities has started in Europe. So cities are growing. Thirdly even if in places more people are dying then being born this is more then made up by immigration from Russia, Asian countries, South-American countries, some from the US and Canada. And now also, for now, adding to that from the refugee crises thanks to ISIS in the Middle East.

Fourthly the EU represents a land area 1/3 of the United States. In many places too crowded as it is. Even so we still see for example many rich Chinese and others moving to EU cities partly or fully because Chinese cities being more crowded (and polluted).
garrett
3 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2016
A gently declining population is the sign of a mature and advanced civilization.

Increasing population at this point marks either a culture disturbed by war and rip off of resources, including land, or, a gros militaristic culture propagandized into over consumption and pampering the wealthy.
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 17, 2016
That's because you don't understand who or what Satan/Lucifer actually is.
Satans were Jewish attorneys
Not God killed His Son but the servants of lucifer who preferеd Pilate to release the criminal instead the holy Son of God, because in this criminal they recognize themselves.
Your Jesus hero hated the moneychangers. The same people who killed him. The same people your idolize in Israel even while they blow up your skyscrapers and dance
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 17, 2016
Well that's what happens when you embrace soulless socialism, the citizens lose the will to reproduce.
Quite the opposite effect with USA minorities, many who are paid to have as many bastard children as their uteruses can bear

Kochevnik, are you one of those eastern european nazi's?
How's your reconquista going? Sorry they got your man El Chapo back behind bars again
Whydening Gyre
5 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2016
Not God killed His Son but the servants of lucifer who preferеd Pilate to release the criminal instead the holy Son of God, because in this criminal they recognize themselves.

Many of those "servants" being religious leaders (read - god's representatives) of the region and day...
my2cts
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 17, 2016
Well that's what happens when you embrace soulless socialism, the citizens lose the will to reproduce.
Quite the opposite effect with USA minorities, many who are paid to have as many bastard children as their uteruses can bear

Kochevnik, are you one of those eastern european nazi's?
How's your reconquista going? Sorry they got your man El Chapo back behind bars again

Huh ?
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2016
I am reminded of those who not to paid attentions to maths
Math is easy viko. Watch...
2-4-8-16-32-64-128 = starvation, war, disease, etc.

Not many of you religionists know math, nor do you care. You're instructed to let god run the numbers.

"Give no thought for the morrow... If the birds in the trees are not worried about their next meal, why should you be?"

David had the audacity to take a census and god killed 10k before David talked him out of it.

And WHY did god replace all evidence for the bible stories with totally convincing contrary evidence?

Just a few of the many many examples in your book where god forbids you to use the brain he gave you. This is akin to moslem women having to hide their god-given hair.

Why? Well of course because eve corrupted us all.

And if we did perchance dwell on any of this for just a little while it would occur to us that your bookgod wants to keep us from reaching the obvious conclusion that he was invented by people.
adam_russell_9615
5 / 5 (2) Jan 18, 2016
I feel it is safe to say that we are in no danger of running out of people.
viko_mx
1 / 5 (3) Jan 18, 2016
The rebels against the omnipotent and holy God does not want to have limitations and God to tells them what to do and how to live. They have neither longevity nor the patience and kindness, nor the intellect and wisdom of God, nor His power over the physical reality, but at the same time want to tell Him what to do and how to handle them, which is inadequate and insolently. Just because they do not know God. The same as a child who wants to give orders to his parents how to behave with him and how to educate and to indulge him.
We live thanks to the restrictions in physical and social environment that rebells against God's will because of their own myopia and ego fail to realize. Physical laws limit the degrees of freedom in our physical environment and if God remove them, our bodies would have collapsed instantly. Similar is the situation with the moral constraints that God requires with His moral laws. If God remove them, society will disintegrate, but the process is a little slow
viko_mx
1 / 5 (2) Jan 18, 2016
The order in one physical system is limiting the degrees of freedom of the constituent elements in order this system to obtain maximum natural stability. Moral constraints of God are a manifestation of His love, which produces and sustains life in the universe. Those who murmur against God's law, do it because of lack of love for God and neighbor, which is replaced by ego and consumer thinking. They want to eliminate moral restrictions of God only to impose their vain will upon other people and to be able to scratch their ego.
The irony is that the moral constraints of God born love, harmony and freedom for body and spirit of people, and those who murmur against them, will require a thousand times more absurd restrictions because of their paranoia to create a prison for the human spirit and body.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Jan 18, 2016
What a nonsense article. The EU population is growing not getting smaller,

The article did not say it was getting smaller. As you point out immigration is a factor in poulation size. The article ONLY says that death rates are higher than birth rates. Nothing more, nothing less. A decrease in population in Europe is a unwarranted (and false) interpretation by certain posters. They are talking about "natural decrease" in the article - which is a metric that only looks at births/deaths.
krundoloss
5 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2016
It seems quite sad to say that "God was angry".

Think about how primitive that is.

Why would God be angry? More importantly why do you impose human limitations on a God? So you can understand it? How cute!
EnricM
1 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2016
I think limiting the number of children people have is a much more graceful approach to population control, don't you?


Indeed. The problem is how to implement it.
I would opt for tax measures, for instance a progressive dismanteling of tax advantages for copules with children. And this makes also sense from the point of view of social equality as couples and individuals without children are actually subsidsing those with them, and in many countries even the upper strata receive subsidies for children which is just absurd.
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 18, 2016
The rebels against the omnipotent and holy God does not want to have limitations
New testament states your god is internal: "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives ... that you are the Temple of God, and that The Spirit of God dwells within you?" Your Tetragrammaton bible is a codex to attain that singular bliss state, or nirvana. Pity you're too dumb to receive it
mrburns
1 / 5 (2) Jan 18, 2016
Many humans dont bred well in captivity. Socialism is a form of captivity (it certainly cant be regarded as freedom). Most of europe is Socialist to some degree or another. hence low rates of reproduction. Soviets ahd the same problem
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 19, 2016
How strange. An article about the European birth and death rates somehow ends up talking about points of religion and Christian theology.
In any case here are my observations:
If anyone believes there is an overpopulation problem and and try to limit and reduce their birth rates and such, you are only going to lose out in the end to people who don't agree with you. If much of a society believes in reducing the population, then that society 'deserves' to lose out in the end to people who don't follow the same self-destructive belief.
Like it or not it is a numbers game. And any worthy society must be one that can propagate itself. Otherwise if it declines or even dies out what is its point?
Interesting that early on Angela Merkel welcomed all those mostly Muslim hordes into Germany partly because the 'authentic' Germans were experiencing a population decline. Now they are finding out that letting in foreign people who aren't followers of their native German culture is no solution.
RMWST
1 / 5 (2) Jan 19, 2016
Continued;

But why are the 'authentic' Germans declining in the first place? Are they suicidal? What is there to respect about a declining society? It's not that I want them to die out, but if they don't believe in propagating themselves and their German culture and society, then there is nothing left to respect.
And like it or not, people who believe in 'reducing' themselves are leaving themselves wide open to being taken over by people who are not foolish enough to believe in 'population reduction'. That's the way it is. They may not care about following or preserving your culture and whatever it is you stand for (most especially the idea there is an overpopulation problem). And why should they? It's self destructive and the sign of a 'loser'. You and your society lose in the end if you follow this self-destructive idea.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 21, 2016
Don't know why religious and theological issues but since they were:

"What about all the innocent firstborn children of Egypt?"
Payback for when an earlier Egyptian pharaoh ordered innocent Jewish babies to be killed (Exodus 1:16,22)

"In fact, he hardened Pharaoh's heart to ENSURE they would be murdered."
Pharaoh hardened his heart first.

"What about all the innocent children of Bethlehem Herod slew?"
Go ask Herod. Or is he somehow exempt?

"What about the 40 kids that made fun of his prophets hair?"
What makes you think it's OK to mock a prophet? It's not as though they haven't been warned before (Lev 26:21-22). Also google article 'Elisha and the Two Bears'.

"What about Job children?"
The accusation was that Job followed God only because God has blessed him immensely. To see if Job would still be loyal without blessings, he has to lose a lot.

"What about all the people in Canaan with the same disposition as Rahab?"
They did not follow her example.
RMWST
1 / 5 (2) Jan 21, 2016
"Yes, but your god remains a mass murderer who raped a young girl and then killed his son, blaming us."
"If it had been my son I would have done everything in my omnipotence to stop those weeds."
Would 'done everything' include destruction? If so, no complaints against killing then?
The point of a virgin conception is that it wasn't any kind of sex at all, so no rape, unless your definition of rape stretches its credible meaning. In any case, the girl welcomed the pregnancy (Luke 1:38). For her, it may very well be the equivalent of winning the Jackpot lottery.
And from Jesus's point of view He laid down his own life (John 10:14-18).
RMWST
1 / 5 (2) Jan 21, 2016
"There is nothing more evil than restricting women to making babies until it kills them."
Bizarre argument, there is a lot of medical progress to ensure both mother and baby are safe.

"There is nothing more evil than bringing babies into an overcrowded world and condemning them to suffer and starve and die on the battlefield."
What overcrowded world? Even China has lifted its one-child policy. And I think you'll find suffering, starvation and deaths occurring outside some battlefield.

"There is NOTHING more EVIL than convincing children that people who dont believe in their particular god cannot be good, thereby condemning those children to a lifetime of bigotry and hatred.'
You sound close to calling theist people cannot be good, are you yourself spreading a form of bigotry, hatred and evil?
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 21, 2016
The point of a virgin conception is that it wasn't any kind of sex at all, so no rape
Fondling a little girl's genitals isn't rape according to some Just child molestation, which you christians advocate.
bigotry, hatred and evil?
Those are core christian values
viko_mx
1 / 5 (1) Jan 21, 2016
@RMWST

The pear does not fall far from the tree.

I do not intend to be a lawyer of the living God of love, truth and life. It is absurd to blame God for His actions according to our low moral criteria after only He is the creator and supporter of life in this universe and only He knows the past, the present and the future, and the consequences of every human action or inaction.
Throughout the whole Bible God tells us that will gather the wheat into the granary of God - those who are prepared for life and development, but the chaff He will burn - those who are already spiritually dead and rejected the principles of life.

viko_mx
1 / 5 (2) Jan 21, 2016
This will be the day of the second coming of the Son of God. The corpses of the killed by the glory of God unrepentant sinners will leaf on the Earth surface from one end to the other end. There will be no one to bury them, nor to complaine them because the saints will meet the Lord in the air in incorruptible bodies and will reign one thousand years in the kingdom of heaven, and at that time the Earth will be devastated and depopulated. This God's warning is old and increasingly actual. The Bible was written for all times, but especially for the last times in which we live. It is a book that teaches how people to live and change their character in order to become fit for the kingdom of God.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 21, 2016
They have neither longevity nor the patience and kindness, nor the intellect and wisdom of God
Well people TODAY have the common sense and the freedom to actually go out into the desert and look for evidence of the stories god wrote in his book.

And guess what? They found ONLY evidence which convinced them that those stories never happened.

Did god have the wisdom to see that coming?
nor His power over the physical reality
... So viko is left with the disquieting suspicion that god may have obliterated all biblical evidence and replaced with totally convincing counter-evidence.

AND viko may wonder why his immaculately moral and impeccably wise god, who could do absolutely anything he wanted, chose to LIE to viko in order of find out how much viko TRUSTED him.

But others not so hopelessly bound by faith may just conclude that those were fairy tales written by sheisters, not gods, and look for more realistic things to believe in.
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 22, 2016
But others not so hopelessly bound by faith may just conclude that those were fairy tales written by sheisters, not gods, and look for more realistic things to believe in.
Well it is actually a codex for meditation, but the brilliant move was all the silly fairy tales which would be ensconced within the brains of idiots so they could carry the secret to smart people in the far future. That was required because no paper could last so many eons
RMWST
not rated yet Jan 22, 2016
"Fondling a little girl's genitals isn't rape according to some Just child molestation, which you christians advocate."
And atheist activist Richard Dawkins claims there is nothing wrong with 'mild paedophilia'.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2016
"Well people TODAY have the common sense and the freedom to actually go out into the desert and look for evidence of the stories god wrote in his book."
Depends on how much you think you can get out of archaeology. It is said that 88 Australians died in the 2002 Bali bombing attacks. Let's say it is the year 4000 AD. An archaeological team goes out to dig around the by-then ancient site of the bomb attack.
Does that automatically mean they will without fail discover the precise and exact remains of 88 Australians? If not, can they go on to say that maybe the Bali incident never happened?

And besides, isn't it a fact that they discover Biblical material is discovered all the time, like the recent Hezekiah ring seal?

TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 23, 2016
hezekiah ring seal
Hezekiah was an historical king. David was not. NYC is a real city but spiderman doesn't live there.

Jericho was a real city but it has been abandoned for a few centuries by the time Joshua would have gotten there.

Only 1 of dozens of examples.

Setting fairy tales in context that actually existed is an old trick. It predates the bible.

Religionists are so easy to bamboozle because they have already decided that their gods exist and so what they find in the books must be true.

Their immortal souls are at stake you see.

And so they are incapable of doing what scientists do (and rational people, and every wild animal with senses and a brain); that is, gathering evidence and drawing conclusions based on it.

Only domesticated animals are capable of faith.
RMWST
not rated yet Jan 24, 2016
" David was not."
Tel Dan Stele implies otherwise.

"Jericho was a real city but it has been abandoned for a few centuries by the time Joshua would have gotten there."
Did they interpret that correctly? Remember my hypothetical Bali example.

Big cliams you make for animals there.
Vietvet
3 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2016
" David was not."
Tel Dan Stele implies otherwise.

" Archaeology has not yet proved David's historical existence."
https://www.nytim...vid.html

It's important to note the author of the quote believes David was a real person but like he
said:
" Archaeology has not yet proved David's historical existence."

RMWST
not rated yet Jan 24, 2016
"Archaeology has not yet proved David's historical existence."
Patience.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2016
Like I say, an overabundance of evidence which tells us that the bible stories COULD NOT have happened because other things were going on which would have made them impossible.

Perhaps you might want to find out why this noted Jewish scientist, along with 1000s of others, reached these conclusions;

Tel Aviv U archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai"
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 28, 2016
It's important to note the author of the quote believes David was a real person but like he
said:
" Archaeology has not yet proved David's historical existence."
It's far more important to note that even if there was an historical figure named David he is clearly NOT the one described in the bible.

There may well have been a Paul Bunyan but the legends about him and his blue ox Babe digging the grand Canyon are not true.

We are as certain that the bible stories could NOT have happened, as we are of THAT. No evidence for, and tons of evidence against.

BTW there IS no mt sinai.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 28, 2016
And Mr Herzog is just one archaeologist. Other archaeologist like Eilat Mazar have different conclusions from his.

'It's far more important to note that even if there was an historical figure named David he is clearly NOT the one described in the bible.'
Who are you to say?

" No evidence for, and tons of evidence against."
Patience or reconsider whether or not current sceptical interpretations of the archaeaological is correct. Remember my hypothetical Bali example?

"BTW there IS no mt sinai."
Based on?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 29, 2016
Re your ms mazar;

"As she admits, the chronological data recovered in her excavations indicate that the sole Iron Age fortification system extending in this area was in use during the 8th−7th centuries BCE. However, according to the biblical sources the Solomonic city-wall must have passed here, hence [she maintains] the fortification system in question must be Solomonic in date. The biblical text dominates this field operation, not archaeology. Had it not been for Mazar's literal reading of the biblical text, she never would have dated the remains to the 10th century BCE with such confidence." Finklestein

-FAIL

Don't you think that if there was any viable evidence whatsoever confirming the biblical narrative, it would be all over the news?

There is none. Only evidence telling us it never happened.

Like I say Herzog represents 1000s of scientists, historians, exegists, et al. Your source represents 1000s of father's and self-delusionalists.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 29, 2016
mt sinai myth based on
There is no mountain in the sinai peninsula which fits tge biblical description. However this is interesting;

"The Sinai peninsula has traditionally been considered Sinai's location by Christians, although it should also be noted that the peninsula gained its name from this tradition, and was not called that in Josephus' time or earlier."

-IOW the peninsula was named after the myth. BTW Joseph us is cited as a Jewish historian but he gets his history mostly from the bible. So nothing he wrote is dependable.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 29, 2016
And if you read about it, it is clear that everyone has his own idea of where it must be.
https://en.wikipe...nt_Sinai

-Because, since it's in the bible, it HAS to be somewhere.

Just like you. Just like your friend ms mazar and other pseudoscholars of her ilk.

Above - 'father's' should read 'faithers'.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 29, 2016
One more thing
david... who are you to say?
I'm the guy who said that herzog, and 1000s of other archeologists, historians, and exegists, have said this.

Did you miss that?

THEY say that the evidence clearly indicates at most a small tribal kingdom. The bible describes a great regional power.

The bible's wrong. Your god lied to you. Which means that neither he nor the biblical David ever existed.

Does this mean that your god LIES to you to find out how much you TRUST him?

No, it means that your book was written by people who were obvious liars. And not very good ones.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 29, 2016
"Don't you think that if there was any viable evidence whatsoever confirming the biblical narrative, it would be all over the news?"
That Hezekiah ring seal and the Tel Dan Stele.

"There is none. Only evidence telling us it never happened. Like I say Herzog represents 1000s of scientists, historians, exegists, et al. Your source represents 1000s of father's and self-delusionalists."
Sounds more like that crew are deniers that refuse to see the evidence in front of them.

"There is no mountain in the sinai peninsula which fits tge biblical description."
Don't mountains generally look the same?

"And if you read about it, it is clear that everyone has his own idea of where it must be."
Only that they are unable to locate it now, not that it never was. Remember they don't know the precise location of the Battle of Alesia either, regarded as a great Roman triumph.

RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 29, 2016
"I'm the guy who said that herzog, and 1000s of other archeologists, historians, and exegists, have said this."
"The bible's wrong. Your god lied to you. Which means that neither he nor the biblical David ever existed."
How do you know that it isn't Herzog and that crew that are lying to you?

"Just like your friend ms mazar and other pseudoscholars of her ilk."
Ms Mazar remains a qualified archaeologist digging around and finding material which are consistent with what the Bible said. Herzog and his ilk sounds like denialists.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 30, 2016
Hezekiah
-was a real king.
Tel Dan Stele
Debunked except on Ken hamm-type sites. Learn to tell the difference.
that crew are deniers
Naw deniers are people who disregard the consensus view. Like yourself.

Many of those pros are deeply religious people who nevertheless cannot deny what the evidence forces them to conclude.
don't mountains generally look the same?
Ahaahaaaaa no.
How do you know that herzog et al are lying to you?
Because all those 1000s of other pros who have studied their work in great detail would have discovered fraud.

This is a massive consensus built up over centuries of examination and exploration.

How do you know Ken hamm isn't lying to you?
She misrepresented what she found so that it would fit the bible narrative.

I know this is entirely ok with faithers like yourself but to the rest of us it constitutes fraud.

Your god sanctions the violation of every one of his commandments when it supports his cause.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (4) Jan 30, 2016
BTW even though we know hezekiah was real, this does not make the tales told about him in the bible true. You understand that don't you?

And it certainly doesn't make the tales told about David or Solomon true either, nor does it tell us anything whatsoever about who the might have really been or what they did.

You really haven't thought through the 'spiderman doesn't live in new york' analogy have you?

The people who wrote your book were counting on that particular sort of ignorance.

"Oh look at the ruins of jericho. I wonder how that happened."
"Don't you know our god did that?"
"What about that flood the Babylonians are always talking about?"
"Jehovah did that as well. It's in his book."
"Uh huh. Next you're going to tell me that the sumerian creation story was about him."
"Of course it was. And be very careful... your tone suggests blasphemy."
gkam
1 / 5 (2) Jan 30, 2016
The Aten knows.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 31, 2016
"Hezekiah -was a real king"
Arbitrary. You accept Hezekiah but not his ancestor King David.

"Debunked except on Ken hamm-type sites. Learn to tell the difference."
How wrong you are. No one's debunked it, except in your head. It's currently exhibited at Israel's national museum:
http://www.englis...sp=14162
"The "House of David" inscription, part of a monumental stele of the 9th century BCE commemorating the military victories of Hazael, King of Aram, which provides archaeological evidence for the existence of the Davidic dynasty."

"BTW even though we know hezekiah was real, this does not make the tales told about him in the bible true. You understand that don't you?"
Only makes your scepticism arbitrary and laughable.

"You really haven't thought through the 'spiderman doesn't live in new york' analogy have you?"
And you haven't thought through my hypothetical Bali analogy didn't you?
EnricM
5 / 5 (3) Jan 31, 2016
Some cultures separate sex from its biological function of reproduction. In doing so, the rates of stds and divorce increase, and obviously less children... Hispanics, .


We are talking about Europe, and the "Hispanics" in Europe are the Spaniards, and the birth rate in this country is rather low, actually the lowest in Europe.

The blue areas you can see on the map are due to immigration, from the EU to be more specific, mostly from the UK, Germany and my country (the Netherlands).
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 31, 2016
you accept Hezekiah but not david
lots of independent evidence for hezekiah; none for david. Critically, archeologists tell us that Jerusalem at that time was a little village, not a great fortified city.

The ONLY places David is mentioned are the holy books.
tel Dan stele exhibited
So... since the stone exists we can believe the biblical David was real? Is that how you really think?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 31, 2016
The stele has been debunked. That process is rather involved so people who are actually concerned with evidence can read it here;
https://en.m.wiki...an_Stele

-Your quote is from a religionist site written by people whose reasoning processes are the same as yours.

Of course you think they know what they are talking about.
your scepticism arbitrary and laughable
Again... these are not MY conclusions but those of centuries of scholars. They are based on evidence, not faith.

And conclusions are not scepticism.

Your Bali analogy... Lots of independent evidence. How long would it all survive? Fortunately, lots of evidence has survived from biblical times which tells us conclusively that the Bible stories could not have happened.

This is what herzog and his 'ilk' used to reach their conclusions.

New evidence of the same sort is constantly being found. For instance we now know that Nazareth was not even a place until byzantine times.
gkam
1 / 5 (3) Jan 31, 2016
"For instance we now know that Nazareth was not even a place until byzantine times."
---------------------------------------

There was a fried-goat diner there in 16 BCE. They found the sign.
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 31, 2016
"lots of independent evidence for hezekiah; none for david.
Outdated. Tel Dan Stele exists.

"Critically, archeologists tell us that Jerusalem at that time was a little village, not a great fortified city."
Outdated info. Eilat Mazar's excavations are starting to show otherwise.

"Is that how you really think?"
And why do you accept those evidences for Hezekiah?

"The stele has been debunked."
Your link actually mentions how the majority of experts accept it's genuine: "According to Lester L. Grabbe "it is now widely regarded (a) as genuine and (b) as referring to the Davidic dynasty and the Aramaic kingdom of Damascus.""

"Your quote is from a religionist site.."
You do realise this is the website of Israel's national museum don't you?
http://www.imj.or...n/about/
http://www.englis...sp=14162

RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Jan 31, 2016
"They are based on evidence, not faith."
"This is what herzog and his 'ilk' used to reach their conclusions."
And Herzog and his ilk are getting outdated by Eilat Mazar's discoveries. Also you might want to see what some Jews make of it:
http://www.aish.c...077.html

"For instance we now know that Nazareth was not even a place until byzantine times."
Outdated info one again:
http://www.mfa.go...009.aspx
http://www.thegua...tcmp=239
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 01, 2016
stele exists
Of course. So does NYC.
Mazar's excavations are starting
Starting? She herself admitted her dates were off by 200yrs, per the Finklestein quote above.
grabbe... widely... majority
Widely does not mean majority. I assume widely to mean among faithers.
website of a museum
The original source of the quote AFAIK is the pub 'biblical archeology' which is decidedly religionist. The term biblical archeology is passé as most serious researchers no longer use the bible for historical or scientific reference.

You are cherry picking your quotes from the refs I cite. Try this one:
https://en.wikipe...toricity

-The preponderance of evidence tells us that the kingdoms are a myth, which is why herzog said what he said. I'm not going to try to repeat all the evidence here.
Mazar's discoveries
-were misinterpreted by her to fit her preconceptions that an honest god wrote a completely dependable account of the past.

Neither are true.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 01, 2016
Nazareth - as I said, evidence tells us that it was founded in byzantine times.
http://www.nazare...ght.html

-I admit it's not the best of sources but salm and others have provided evidence that Ms Alexandre willfully misinterpreted what she found, and that the coins and shards could well have been planted.

Your Guardian article is 6 years old and before her claims could be vetted. It got a number of facts wrong like coin and shard dating.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 01, 2016
One of the most damning bits of evidence needs to be mentioned here, which is the complete ABSENCE of it for any of the bible stories.

The bible describes the kingdoms as a great regional power rivaling Egypt and babylon and greece. You must admit that we have enormous amounts of all kinds of evidence for these empires. But we have NONE for the Hebrews before king ahaz.

Nothing. No roads, bridges, fortifications, or temples except for a couple of stones with highly dubious inscriptions on them which you godders have to bend over backwards to interpret in your favor.

No mention of the Hebrews in anything left by other dynasties of the period. No Hebrew writings except what can be found in the bible.

Where is it? Did your god obliterate it and replace it with all the undeniable evidence which says that bible history and science are nonsense?

Why would he DO such a thing?
RMWST
not rated yet Feb 02, 2016
"Starting? She herself admitted her dates were off by 200yrs, per the Finklestein quote above."
And subsequently:
"Mazar makes the following arguments for an Israelite royal palace from the early tenth century: 1) That enormous scale of the structure and physical distinctions between it and other contemporary structures. 2) That it was erected outside the walls of the Jebusite city. 3) Pottery and pavements in the structure and dated to the tenth century 4) the fact that latest pottery found beneath the structure is a "sizable and richly varied" assemblage dated to the twelfth–eleventh centuries BC 5) both pottery types and radiocarbon dating point to a date around the year 1000 6) potters in the attached Stepped Stone Structure also dates its construction to the tenth century...
https://en.wikipe...tructure
RMWST
not rated yet Feb 02, 2016
"The original source of the quote AFAIK is the pub 'biblical archeology' which is decidedly religionist."
And it is still the website of Israel's national museum.

"You are cherry picking your quotes from the refs I cite.."
And you're not biased towards the sceptical ones?

"Neither are true."
Getting there:
"Archaeological support for Mazar's dating and attribution to a tenth-century Israelite king may have increased following finds at Khirbet Qeiyafa, viewed by some archaeologists and paleographers as confirming the existence of a centralized and powerful Israelite kingdom in the early tenth century."
https://en.wikipe...tructure

RMWST
not rated yet Feb 02, 2016
"I admit it's not the best of sources..."
You want to play by such standards then try this rebuttal:
http://ehrmanblog...h-exist/

"Your Guardian article is 6 years old..."
And your Herzog is 17 years out of date and has since been outmoded by Eilat Mazar's discoveries.

"The bible describes the kingdoms as a great regional power rivaling Egypt and babylon and greece."
Depends on what you mean by 'great regional power'. Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen says that based on the Bible, ancient Israel in David's day functioned as a 'mini-empire' similar to that of Carchemish, which held portions of SE Asia Minor, northern Syria, and the west bend of the Euphrates.

"Nothing. No roads, bridges..."
Eilat Mazar is showing otherwise.
EnricM
not rated yet Feb 02, 2016
Possibly related: http://medium.com...ec51205c


Indeed, interesting, we Europeans haven even noticed. I bet it's the Green Lobby again with HAARP and the chemtrails trying to tax the hell out of the hard working American worker.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 04, 2016
Re mazar; i guess you missed this so here it is again.

"As she admits, the chronological data recovered in her excavations indicate that the sole Iron Age fortification system extending in this area was in use during the 8th−7th centuries BCE. However, according to the biblical sources the Solomonic city-wall must have passed here, hence [she maintains] the fortification system in question must be Solomonic in date. The biblical text dominates this field operation, not archaeology. Had it not been for Mazar's literal reading of the biblical text, she never would have dated the remains to the 10th century BCE with such confidence." Finklestein

-FAIL
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 04, 2016
Re; kenneth kitchen

He's an evangelical xian. Look up the term 'bias'.

Ever read this review by John huddleston?
http://www.academ...69_2007_
RMWST
not rated yet Feb 05, 2016
And again:
"Mazar makes the following arguments for an Israelite royal palace from the early tenth century: 1) That enormous scale of the structure and physical distinctions between it and other contemporary structures.....
https://en.wikipe...tructure

And it's not just Mazar but another archaeologist as well, Yosef Garfinkel. He may be even more strident:
http://www.timeso...nt-site/
http://mfa.gov.il...012.aspx
http://www.haaret...1.360222

And this gem:
"Now it is Finkelstein's theory that is under siege. On the heels of Mazar's claim to have discovered King David's palace, two other archaeologists have unveiled remarkable finds..."
http://ngm.nation...per-text

Finkelstein fail.
RMWST
not rated yet Feb 05, 2016
"He's an evangelical xian."
What has the Chinese city of Xian got to do with this?

"Ever read this review by John huddleston?"
No issue with the mini-empire explanation there.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Feb 05, 2016
Nice article.

"Here would be a second reason to be skeptical of Yossi Garfinkel's conclusions: He announced them, swiftly and dramatically, despite the fact that he had only four olive pits on which to base his dating, a single inscription of a highly ambiguous nature, and a mere 5 percent of his site excavated. In other words, says archaeologist David Ilan, "Yossi has an agenda—partly ideological, but also personal."

"Many of the excavations undertaken in Jerusalem are financially backed by the City of David Foundation, whose director of international development, Doron Spielman, freely admits, "When we raise money for a dig, what inspires us is to uncover the Bible—and that's indelibly linked with sovereignty in Israel."
Cont>

TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Feb 05, 2016
"even if Garfinkel can prove that the Judah tribe that begat David dwelled in the fortress of Shaaraim, and Eilat Mazar can document that King David commissioned a palace in Jerusalem, and Tom Levy can successfully demonstrate that King Solomon oversaw copper mines in Edom, this does not a glorious biblical dynasty make."

-IOW even if your starry-eyed biblical pseudoscientists succeed in verifying the existence of these 'mini-kingdoms', which nevertheless stretch from the Mediterranean to the euphrates, it does not mean that the David and Solomon who may have ruled there are the ones described in the bible, nor that they were in contact with the alleged god of abraham, nor that they were the beneficiaries or victims of his many miracles and his wrath.

It just means that your theologians with shovels had found the equivalent of someone named king arthur.

Yours and theirs are the same arguments foisted when the hittites were discovered.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Feb 05, 2016
As it stands they have found very little hard evidence for anything, which the article explains after inflaming both sideS with the standard opening spiel.

And as far as accepting that the bible is in part metaphor, people must accept also that this leads to the conclusion that anything we find there could be metaphor.

It's either true in its entirety as it claims it is, or its entirely worthless as history.

And Bart ehrman has already pretty much confirmed the latter.
http://www.amazon...62012622
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Feb 05, 2016
Ehrman on YouTube discussing bible forgery
https://youtu.be/63QvWMBxsW4
RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Feb 06, 2016
"..his does not a glorious biblical dynasty make."
Based on this logic, a moon landing unbeliever can go on saying moon rocks still do not prove the Apollo moon landings ever happened. Nice logic they've made.

".. says archaeologist David Ilan.."
And this is the same guy who... "Ilan himself doubts that Mazar has found King David's palace. "My gut tells me this is an eighth- or ninth-century building.."
So just based on his gut?

And on Finkelstein:
"I myself would never dig in such a place—too hot! For me, archaeology is about having a good time. You should come to Megiddo—we live in an air-conditioned B&B next to a nice swimming pool."
So he does not do 'inconvenient' archaeology?
Sounds like your side are the pseudoscientists.

"..stretch from the Mediterranean to the euphrates..."
This was the estimated size of David's Israel:
http://www.bible-...mon.html

RMWST
1 / 5 (1) Feb 07, 2016
"And Bart ehrman has already pretty much confirmed the latter."
And here are responses to Bart Ehrman's arguments:
http://www.always...t-ehrman
But I find it telling even Bart does not swallow the 'Nazareth did not exist' nonsense.

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