A small step from a toxic workplace to dictatorship

Feb 18, 2014 by Lesley Parker
Pol Pot victims, Siem Reap. Credit: totalitarism on Flickr

Business bestseller lists are heavy with tales of inspirational leadership but a group of academics is gleaning lessons for management from the "dark side" by studying the methods of Pol Pot, the dictator responsible for the "killing fields" of Cambodia.

As commander of the Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot orchestrated the genocide of an estimated 1.7 million people, killing one in five in the then Kampuchea in five years, in pursuit of his "utopian vision" of a classless, peasant society.

Totalitarian regimes are not only social and political movements but also "organisational projects", says the Research Director of the Centre for Management and Organisation Studies at the University of Technology, Sydney (UTS) Business School, Professor Stewart Clegg.

"The processes that produced [the killing fields] can and should be analysed," says Professor Clegg. "Scholars in the field of organisational studies have an ethical responsibility to analyse not just the best in organisations but also the worst. There are things we can learn to enable us both to avoid those sorts of outrages in the future and to avoid the worst excesses that organisations are capable of."

Professor Clegg and his fellow researchers have isolated 20 principles that underpin totalitarian organisations. For instance, leaders – or managers – within such organisations demand conformity, maintain their distance, are selective in their "mercies" and favour certain people with perks and benefits. They also ensure a ceaseless round of activity leaves little room for reflection.

"These 20 principles or rules for constructing totalitarian institutions are phenomena that you might find present in everyday, normal organisations," says Professor Clegg. "It just needs a little accentuation of some of these aspects to begin to produce ethically very dubious organisations."

Bullying, stress and emotional burnout are examples of what you'll find in "toxic" business organisations, he says. At the extreme, "management by terror" – a term associated with Pol Pot – sometimes comes to the surface.

In France, former France Telecom chief executive Didier Lombard has been charged with harassment after 35 workers committed suicide in two years. One left a note blaming overwork and what he called "management by terror". Lombard has rejected allegations that his efficiency measures – "essential plans for the survival of the company" – were to blame.

In China, a wave of suicides drew attention to work practices at Foxconn, contract electronics maker for global brands such as Apple and HP. In a New York Times investigation in 2010, workers complained about military-style drills, verbal abuse by superiors and "self-criticisms" they were forced to read aloud.

Professor Clegg says the example of Pol Pot "tells you that where you have leadership that is absolutely convinced of the moral rightness and ideological purposefulness of its mission, and demands conformity among members for the achievement of that mission, anything is possible – and the anythings that are possible are not necessarily good things."

He says that, rather than having staff "singing from the same sheet", very strong corporate cultures are to be avoided. "I don't think they're a very good idea. I think it's from dissonance, from resistance, from polyphony that you get creativity and innovation."

Explore further: Authenticity is the key to successfully leading change

add to favorites email to friend print save as pdf

Related Stories

Open innovation collaboration puts new demands on leadership

Sep 24, 2013

Anna Yström is now defending her thesis on how open innovation collaboration – the context in which different organisations meet and work together to create knowledge and innovation – can be led. For four years, she ...

Culture clash impacts on bottom line

Nov 13, 2013

Flat organisations confuse foreign workers, and this in turn reduces Norwegian industrial efficiency. Norwegian researchers are now getting to grips with this issue. In collaboration with Grande Entreprenør and Kværner ...

Small changes can help health service staff avoid burnout

Oct 22, 2013

A survey of nurses working with older adults across three National Health Service trusts in England explored how perceptions of the workplace affect nurse wellbeing. Standardised validated measures were used to assess burnout, ...

Recommended for you

Genes play a key part in the recipe for a happy country

17 hours ago

Why are the Danes naturally more cheerful than the Brits, and why are we in turn more upbeat than the French? Research presented as part of this year's ESRC Festival of Social Sciences shows us that the recipe behind a happy ...

Black Republicans put most faith in US government

Oct 29, 2014

Black Republicans trust the United States government more than other political groups, finds a new study from the University of British Columbia, ahead of the mid-term U.S. elections to be held on November ...

User comments : 131

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (6) Feb 18, 2014
This thesis is invalid. The paper uses the fallacy of dropped context to tie the unrelated causality of radical Maoist and Marxist-Leninist policies to corporate capitalism.

Proof that the thesis posed in this article is invalid:

http://www.cambod...history/

The Khmer Rouge seized power in Cambodia in 1975 and immediately began to implement their radical Maoist and Marxist-Leninist policies designed to socially engineer a "classless" peasant society.

The Khmer Rouge, immediately began to both wreak modern infrastructure, the set about executing "classes" of people they deemed a threat to their new order, this included businessmen and intellectuals, doctors and engineers, civil servants and scientists – within a few days of seizing power entire urban populations, (from Phnom Penh and other cities) approximately 2 million people, were force marched into the countryside. The entire country was organized like a prison camp.
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (6) Feb 18, 2014
China prohibits US corporations from directly managing production facilities. The management of these plants is entirely native Chinese citizens. The Foxconn practices, i.e. military style drills and forced public reading of self-criticisms originate from the dominant cultural philosophy, which is rooted in Maoist and Marxist doctrine.

Note: In a free society under capitalism all relationships are voluntary.

Context dropping, selective cherry-picking, and blurring (the concept of organization) without context into unrelated inhumane sociopolitical ideologies, is intellectually dishonest. There is no place for this in science.

Nik_2213
5 / 5 (3) Feb 18, 2014
If you substitute 'out-placing' for 'executing', the parallels are more evident.

;-( You try being on the losing end of a 'hostile takeover', when the 'efficiency experts' start ripping out what they perceive as waste and we knew as innovation, flexibility & resilience...)
marko
not rated yet Feb 19, 2014
It is quite strange the biggest conformist dictators are often non-conformist outsiders with an insecurity complex such as shortness.

For example: Corsican Napoleon, Georgian Stalin and Austrian Hitler.

Refer this youtube video by Dr Gabor Mate:

http://www.youtub...YcSak6nE

antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Feb 19, 2014
tells you that where you have leadership that is absolutely convinced of the moral rightness and ideological purposefulness

Blind ideology (or dogma) is never a good idea. Rghteousness can excuse any atrocity ("the end justifies the means"). It's particularly terrible when the end isn't an achievement but a perpetual state (peasant state, heaven, a race free from some imagined aberration, superiority over slave races ... ) In that case the atrocities just keep on going.
Firefly Mal
2.6 / 5 (5) Feb 19, 2014
"If you substitute 'out-placing' for 'executing', the parallels are more evident."

No – not at all. It might be satisfying for you to "pretend" the author used other words – but the paper, as it stands, is not referencing a real world phenomena to begin with.

The Khmer Rouge were anti-capitalist's, to be specific they were radical Maoist and Marxist-Leninist, and murderers in the bargain.

There were no "businessmen" among them.

They lined up and murdered anyone with a formal education in business administration.

Their "organization," such as it was, was driven by a philosophy and ideology that bares no resemblance to relationships formed between men in a free society.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (3) Feb 19, 2014

Job001
3 / 5 (2) Feb 23, 2014
The thesis may be valid while the perspective is invalid and should be restated. For instance, for every 10,000 people terminated, how many (family included) are actuarially sentenced to death?
A very rough estimate might be to assume a 1400 added deaths per million per year(as for those in poverty) and a period of employment seeking of 1.5 years with family size of 4.2. This estimate then would show extra deaths of 4.2 x 1.5 x 10,000 x 1400E-6 = 88 per 10,000 terminations.
Experienced actuarials should be consulted. However, even this simple calculation shows deaths are to be expected from severe management practices.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Feb 23, 2014
"The processes that produced [the killing fields] can and should be analysed,"

Number one on the list should be MURDER by state.
Deadbolt
5 / 5 (3) Feb 23, 2014

They lined up and murdered anyone with a formal education in business administration.

Their "organization," such as it was, was driven by a philosophy and ideology that bares no resemblance to relationships formed between men in a free society.


What free society? You can't substitute your magical fantasy anarcho-capitalism of people coming together under an environment of many alternate s means of subsistence, with actually existing real capitalist societies which are intrinsically statist. Capitalist property rights are enforced over large unused areas on such grounds. What choice does a propertyless worker have but to accept employment available or die?

Even if the ideology is opposite to Pol Pot's and other dictators, we can identify smaller scale authoritarianism in company behaviors just fine. It might not be as bad, but the issue is kind not scale.
Deadbolt
5 / 5 (3) Feb 23, 2014
Under actually existing capitalist societies, the means of production were de facto and by title owned (controlled) by the bourgeoisie/capitalists. The state protects their property rights in an authoritarian manner, and in upholding their property rights, gives them supreme authority to martial those who they employ to use them.

Under actually existing socialist societies the means of production where de facto owned by the nomenklatura, in the "interest of the people". The bureaucracy was a bourgeois wizard behind the proletarian curtain, using its authority to decide what the needs of society were.

Authoritarian relationships transcend ideology, and you can't change that by saying "NOT TRU CAPITALISM/SOCIALISM!". We can identify dictatorial attitudes in societal structures long before we have a dictator executing people.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (2) Feb 23, 2014
Insane Americans destroy Cambodia agriculture, causing mass famine then blame communist leader for deaths and hard choices who should live and die
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 23, 2014
What choice does a propertyless worker have

Individuals own themselves in a free society.
I suspect one reason Jews and Chinese, in particular have a tradition of education in professions like law and medicine is no tyrant can take take that property from them.

The first victims of Pol Pot were anyone with an education. The only way he could take their property was to murder them.

'property-less worker' is Marxist tripe to justify the use of force to plunder wealth.
Millions of 'property-less' workers left socialist utopia's for the US and used their property: intellect, ingenuity, ambition; to create wealth for themselves, their families and society.
kochevnik
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2014
The first victims of Pol Pot were anyone with an education. The only way he could take their property was to murder them.
USA carpet bombing is non-discriminatory and hence the height of USA democracy
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
No number of straw man fallacies hand-waving or obfuscation can change reality.

The cold hard facts are to be found here: http://www.cambod...history/

Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge carried out human slaughter on a grand-scale. The body count estimate is complete: 2,627,000 murders, 1975-1987 (Rummel 1994).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
In order to drive the message home, I shall present the supporting data.

The following estimates represent citizens killed or starved to death by their own Communist governments since 1918. These numbers do not include war dead. The governments are sorted by body count (highest to lowest). All numbers are mid-estimates.

The total world-wide body count currently stands at 149,469,610.

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
People's Republic of China
Body Count: 73,237,000
1949-Present (57+ years and counting)

R.J. Rummel originally estimated China's body count between between the years of 1949-1987 to be 35,236,000 (Rummel 1994). This excluded 38,000,000 million that died of famine during the Great Leap Forward. After the release of Mao: The Unknown Story, Rummel became convinced that the Chinese government was directly responsible for the famine, thus increasing his original estimate by 38,000,000 (Rummel 2005). 1,000 were added for Tienanmen Square in 1989 (Courtois 1999).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
2 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
Body Count: 58,627,000
1922-1991 (69 years)

The body count only covers the years 1923-1987 (Rummel 1996).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic
Body Count: 3,284,000
1918-1922 (4 years)

This body count does not include the 6,210,000 killed in the civil war (Rummel 1996).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Body Count: 3,163,000
1948-Present (58+ years and counting)

1,663,000 is attributed between 1948-1987 excluding the Korean War (Rummel 1994). 2,500,000 is the mid-estimate for those who starved to death between 1995-1998 (U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea 2006).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
kochevnik
4.5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2014
@Firefluff In order to drive the message home, I shall present the supporting data.

The following estimates represent citizens killed or starved to death by their own Communist governments since 1918. These numbers do not include war dead. The governments are sorted by body count (highest to lowest). All numbers are mid-estimates.

The total world-wide body count currently stands at 149,469,610.

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Your own USA murdered 100 million native Americans outright and 80% of the federal budget went toward funding those murders
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Already mentioned, but included in this listing in the interest of thorough comprehension of the world-wide total body count of 149,469,610 attributable to Communist/Marxist ideology.

Cambodia
Body Count: 2,627,000
1975-1987 (12 years)

The body count estimate is complete (Rummel 1994). The offical country name was Democratic Kampuchea during Pol Pot's reign and then known as People's Republic of Kampuchea afterwards.

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
Body Count: 1,750,000
1978-1992 (14 years)

The body count estimate is complete (Courtois 1999).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Your own USA murdered 100 million native Americans outright and 80% of the federal budget went toward funding those murders

Russians are excellent at murder. How may died from Hg poisoning painting the gold domes? And this was before Stalin's murders.

Be that as it may, where is data to support 100 million aboriginal Americans?

Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Vietnam
Body Count: 1,670,000
1975-Present (30+ years and counting)

The body count covers the years 1945-1987 for Vietnam/North Vietnam and excludes 1,062,000 from the Vietnam War (Rummel 1994).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
Body Count: 1,343,610
1974-1991 (17 years)

The body count includes 10,000 political assassinations during 1977-1978, 1,000 children killed in 1977, 110 massacred in an Orthodox church in 1975, 80,000 during the civil war between 1978-1980, 250,000 that died in 1982 through Transit Camps, and 2,500 killed in a bombing raid (Courtois 1999). Another 1,000,000 is added for the famine during 1984-1985 (BBC News 2000).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
Body Count: 1,072,000
1945-1992 (47 years)

The body count only covers the years 1945-1992 excluding 100,000 from the Tito Partisans between 1941-1944 (Rummel 1994).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Chinese Soviet Republic
Body Count: 700,000
1931-1934 (3 years)

The body count only includes the Jiangxi and Fujian provinces (Chang 2005). Although Mozambique has 700,000 to its name, the Chinese Soviet Republic produced more bodies in a shorter time period and the estimate is low.

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
People's Republic of Mozambique
Body Count: 700,000
1975-1990 (15 years)

100,000 civilians murdered between 1986 and mid-1988 (Young 1991) and 600,000 starved to death between 1975-1985 (Courtois 1999).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Deadbolt
5 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
But capitalism doesn't actually exist in a free society. Like at all. The accumulation of wealth of corporations occurs on the backs of massive force of government.

When analyzing capitalism Vs socialism, try to stick to actually existing versions of the philosophies, and not imaginary fairytale versions made by Ayn Rand or Karl Marx.

Or maybe we shouldn't even be doing that because the article isn't about capitalism versus socialism, but about analyzing how hierarchies in our current societies can have the same properties of those in murderous dictatorships even though we aren't using these hierarchies to cause mass deaths.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Socialist Republic of Romania
Body Count: 435,000
1947-1989 (42 years)

The body count only covers the years 1947-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
But capitalism doesn't actually exist in a free society.

Yes, it does.
The accumulation of wealth of corporations occurs on the backs of massive force of government.

Only those corporations that depend upon the govt to protect them from competition.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
People's Republic of Bulgaria
Body Count: 222,000
1946-1990 (44 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
People's Republic of Angola
Body Count: 125,000
1975-1992 (17 years)

The body count only covers the years 1975-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Mongolian People's Republic
Body Count: 100,000
1924-1992 (68 years)

The body count only covers the years 1924-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
People's Socialist Republic of Albania
Body Count: 100,000
1946-1991 (45 years)

The body count only covers the years 1944-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Firefly, you seem to be reading something into this article that is not there. The article discusses the failings of ultra-conformist regimes like Moaist Pol Pot and similar murderous leaders. The authors are saying that similar practices occur in the business world and that such practices are bad for the corporations they arise in.

There is no attempt to tie together political policies with capitalist policies. You seem to be flogging an imaginary horse.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Republic of Cuba
Body Count: 73,000
1961-Present (45+ years and counting)

The body count only covers the years 1959-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
The authors are saying that similar practices occur in the business world and that such practices are bad for the corporations they arise in.


There is no equivalence in the business world.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
There is no equivalence in the business world.
I see you have trouble reading too.

Dammit, troll feeding, so hard to stop.

Firefly Mal
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 24, 2014
In the business world, in a free society under capitalism, relationships are at will and voluntary. Decisions are value-driven. "Value" is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The concept "value" is not a primary; it presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what? What determines value?

In order to live, man must act; in order to act, he must make choices; in order to make choices, he must define a code of values; in order to define a code of values he needs metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, which means: philosophy.

A political ideology is the means to enact principals driven by a philosophy.

The paper is the authors attempt to evade these facts by posing authoritarianism and conformity – the action of which depend on philosophy. Neither can exist in a vacuum.

The authors thesis is invalid.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2014
The paper is the authors attempt to evade these facts by posing authoritarianism and conformity – the action of which depend on philosophy. Neither can exist in a vacuum.
On the contrary, the paper speaks to the actions of those in power in imposing their desires on those whom they are in charge of. Those who desire authoritarianism and conformity are the very people this article says need to step back and consider their actions in imposing unrealistic demands on those whom they are in charge of, as such actions cause a detrimental result to the entity (in this case, business) as a whole.

Put differently Firefly, you are agreeing with them.
Firefly Mal
1.4 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
Now, I shall continue driving home the lesson that there is no casual connection between decisions reached in the business world, in a free society under capitalism, and the consequence of communist/Marxist philosophy and ideology.

German Democratic Republic
Body Count: 70,000
1949-1990 (41 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
in order to make choices, he must define a code of values; in order to define a code of values he needs metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, which means: philosophy.

@Firefly Mal
personal conjecture
give validation that metaphysics and philosophy are necessary for the definition of a code of values, please
The paper is the authors attempt to evade these facts by posing authoritarianism and conformity

personal conjecture
seemed to me that the authors were drawing a correlation between business practices that are destructive and how they relate to extremist political regimes in that they tend to be toxic and very constrained as well as destructive
given the last two paragraphs and the comment
very strong corporate cultures are to be avoided

I think that Maggnus is right:
you seem to be reading something into this article that is not there

please re-read the last 4 paragraphs again
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
Socialist Republic of Czechoslovakia
Body Count: 65,000
1948-1990 (42 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1968 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Captain Stumpy
4.7 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
@firefly mal
given this statement by you
The paper is the authors attempt to evade these facts by posing authoritarianism and conformity

and the final paragraph in the article
He says that, rather than having staff "singing from the same sheet", very strong corporate cultures are to be avoided. "I don't think they're a very good idea. I think it's from dissonance, from resistance, from polyphony that you get creativity and innovation."

there is a good chance that you have:
completely misunderstood what you read OR
you are ignoring the authors statements OR
you are delusional/illiterate OR
you are TROLLING/SPAMMING

Please define which it is that you are and let us know
further posts about
no casual connection between decisions reached in the business world, in a free society under capitalism, and the consequence of communist/Marxist philosophy and ideology

are TROLLING/SPAMMING
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
A correlation that depends on evading the principal facts isn't really a correlation.

Now, moving right along - in a presentation that addresses those facts:

Lao People's Democratic Republic
Body Count: 56,000
1975-Present (31+ years and counting)

The body count only covers the years 1975-1987 excluding 47,000 war dead (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2014
There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism

@firefly
where in the article does it state that irrefutably?
the article makes the claim that
Totalitarian regimes are...also "organisational projects"
&
The processes...can and should be analysed
&
There are things we can learn to enable us both to avoid those sorts of outrages in the future and to avoid the worst excesses that organisations are capable of

& gave negative examples of business and how they can have similar mng't practices as the totalitarian regimes
you are assuming that the similar tactics of business mng't to the totalitarian regime is causal and it is merely an observed similarity of practice
just like the similarities of mgt to sociopathic personalities:
SIMILAR TO, not CAUSAL and connected/derived of
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Hungarian People's Republic
Body Count: 27,000
1949-1989 (40 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Well Stumpy, it would seem he has decided to rant, and the fact he is completely off course seems to be of no consequence.

It's like he read a completely different article and came here just to preach. Weird.
Maggnus
4.7 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Oh, and I guess the idea that the owner of a large company can become drunk on the power he has in his own company has been lost on poor Firefly.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

@firefly
so, by continuing to TROLL/SPAM
and refusing to address the logic Maggnus posted
or even discuss what I posted
you are essentially saying that you are a SPAMMING TROLL and you like being considered stupid?

I would have said ignorant, but as it has been pointed out to you by more than one person that you are reading something into the article that is NOT there, then it can be considered stupidity.

it would seem he has decided to rant, and the fact he is completely off course seems to be of no consequence

@Maggnus
apparently so
sad, really
Oh, and I guess the idea that the owner of a large company can become drunk on the power he has in his own company has been lost on poor Firefly

maybe he can apply for SS disability ? :-)
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
In the business world, in a free society, relationships are at will and voluntary. Decisions are value-driven. "Value" is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. The concept "value" is not a primary; it presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what? What determines value?

In order to live, man must act; in order to act, he must make choices; in order to make choices, he must define a code of values; in order to define a code of values he needs metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, which means: philosophy.

The paper evades this fact by posing a straw man of "authoritarianism" and conformity – the action of which depend on the underlying philosophy.

There is no similarity with business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same.

There is no similarity and no facts which correlate.

Captain Stumpy
4.7 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
in order to make choices, he must define a code of values; in order to define a code of values he needs metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, which means: philosophy

@firefly
again...personal conjecture
give validation that metaphysics and philosophy are necessary for the definition of a code of values, please
The paper evades this fact by posing a straw man of "authoritarianism" and conformity

personal conjecture
seemed to me that the authors were drawing a correlation between business practices that are destructive and how they relate to extremist political regimes in that they tend to be toxic and very constrained as well as destructive
re-read the last 4 paragraphs again
There is no similarity with business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same

define the underlying philosophy that you are arguing is not the same
from what I am seeing, it is about CONTROL
therefore, the argument IS similar
Captain Stumpy
4.7 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
There is no similarity with business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same.

@firefly
in the article, he states
Bullying, stress and emotional burnout are examples of what you'll find in "toxic" business organisations, he says. At the extreme, "management by terror" – a term associated with Pol Pot – sometimes comes to the surface.
[sic]
this is telling me that there are correlations between the hard nosed boss and dictators and their management practices/styles
which are
having staff "singing from the same sheet", very strong corporate cultures

which should be avoided (also in the text)
&
I think it's from dissonance, from resistance, from polyphony that you get creativity and innovation

tells me that a mgr that is open to new ideas/input/different ideas will likely have a better working environment/mgt style that is NOT similar to totalitarian regimes
which supports capitalism etc
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
People's Republic of Poland
Body Count: 22,000
1948-1989 (41 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997). Excludes 1,585,000 from ethnic cleansing between 1945-1950 (Rummel 1994).

There is no similarity between the "organizations" involved in these murders and those which are limited to business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same.

There is no causal-connection between ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.

Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2014
@firefly
therefore, it appears to me that the authors state that practices that are similar to totalitarian regimes, such as rigid inflexible management styles that are dictatorial, are more conducive to more stressful working environs and workplace disharmony, which is similar to the mgt practices of the mentioned dictators above...

seems to me that the study says that mgt practices that reflect totalitarian/dictatorial regimes can lead to toxic work environs

according to what you have been posting, this is similar to what you have been saying, you just cant see the connection between the two because of biased interpretation
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
There is no similarity between the "organizations" involved in these murders and those which are limited to business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same.

There is no causal-connection between ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.

@fly
OK THEN
YOU ARE A SPAMMING TROLL
thanks for showing your stupidity (as it has been pointed out to you several times now that you are reading something into this that is NOT there)
Maggnus
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
therefore, it appears to me that the authors state that practices that are similar to totalitarian regimes, such as rigid inflexible management styles that are dictatorial, are more conducive to more stressful working environs and workplace disharmony, which is similar to the mgt practices of the mentioned dictators above...
Yes I read it the same way.

Maybe we are just idiot minions?!?! Or maybe this is a rygg sockpuppet!
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
Organizational hierarchy does not deterministically and unequivocally equate to rigid, or conformist, or overbearing authoritarianism, or a resistance to innovation. These claims are unsupported by the author.

It is very simple, using only the facts which are not in dispute, to illustrate things which are of "like" nature and thus distinguish things which are not.

People's Democratic Republic of Yemen
Body Count: 1,000
1969-1990 (21 years)

The body count only covers the years 1969-1987 (Rummel 1997).

There is no similarity between the "organizations" involved in these murders and those which are limited to business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same.

There is no causal-connection between these ideologically driven murders and the at-will voluntary relationships formed between men in a free society under capitalism.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Organizational hierarchy does not deterministically and unequivocally equate to rigid, or conformist, or overbearing authoritarianism, or a resistance to innovation. These claims are unsupported by the author.
These claims are not made by the author! Can you read?
It is very simple, using only the facts which are not in dispute, to illustrate things which are of "like" nature and thus distinguish things which are not.
Then you should do that. WOw, you're a bit of a loon aren't you?
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
Organizational hierarchy does not deterministically and unequivocally equate to rigid, or conformist, or overbearing authoritarianism, or a resistance to innovation. These claims are unsupported by the author

@Fmal
those claims were not MADE by the author either
There is no similarity between the "organizations" involved in these murders and those which are limited to business decision making in a free society under capitalism because the underlying philosophy is not the same

as defined by whom?
the above is simply PROOF of the authors claims, you idiot!
tells you that where you have leadership that is absolutely convinced of the moral rightness and ideological purposefulness of its mission, and demands conformity among members for the achievement of that mission, anything is possible – and the anythings that are possible are not necessarily good things.

IOW- your statements reinforce what the author said
are you retarded?
Or a Rygg/jvk/zeph multi-part clone?
Firefly Mal
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 24, 2014
The intellectual dishonesty of the paper's author is evident in his slanted portrayal of the Foxconn practices. The facts are known – and these are not in dispute. Yet the author evades factual reality in offering it as example – an invalid and false example.

The facts are thus, attend: China prohibits US corporations from directly managing production facilities. The management of these plants is entirely in the hands of native Chinese citizens. The Foxconn practices, i.e. the military style drills and forced public reading of self-criticisms, originate from the dominant cultural philosophy, which is rooted in Maoist and Marxist doctrine.

In a free society under capitalism all relationships are voluntary. There are no similar or analogous practices.

Context dropping, selective cherry-picking, and blurring the concept of organization without context into unrelated inhumane sociopolitical ideologies, is intellectually dishonest. There is no place for this in science.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
The intellectual dishonesty of the paper's author is evident in his slanted portrayal of the Foxconn practices. The facts are known – and these are not in dispute

@mal
so you're pissed about that
In a free society under capitalism all relationships are voluntary. There are no similar or analogous practices

wrong
the MANAGEMENT PRACTICES of the dictatorial totalitarian COMPANY
CAN MIMIC THE MGT STYLE OF THE DICTATOR IN THEIR TOTALITARIAN GOV'T
inflexible, dictatorial mgt is toxic to work/exchange of ideas and causes excessive stress!
In a free society under capitalism all relationships are voluntary

this is NOT UNDER DISPUTE
China ... managing production facilities

YOU PROVE THE ARTICLE CORRECT WITH YOUR EXAMPLE

TAKE OFF your political blinders and stop throwing a hissy-fit over your ego or percieved insult... there isnt one there
this is NOT about politics, this is about mgm't and the effects/similarities of aggressive, totalitarian, dictatorial mgrs
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (2) Feb 24, 2014
Context dropping, selective cherry-picking, is intellectually dishonest. There is no place for this in science.

@mal
in this you are correct, especially in debate
however
and blurring the concept of organization without context into unrelated inhumane sociopolitical ideologies,

just because you cannot see the similarities between dictatorial bad management and dictatorial political leadership doesnt mean there isnt a pattern of behaviour that is similar and can be measured

think about sociopaths. In the extreme, there is the serial killer, but not all sociopaths are serial killers. Some are quite functional in business as well as life

same thing as the article
Certain mgt styles are more reflective of extreme sociopathic behaviour, and the actions/environment/behaviour that they set up/show are similar to a totalitarian dictatorial gov't

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Those who desire authoritarianism and conformity are the very people this article says need to step back and consider their actions in imposing unrealistic demands on those whom they are in charge of


Now you are talking about Obama and his regime.

In the business world, in a free market, authoritarians can't stay in positions of authority for any length of time. They will drive away those who must do the work for them, unless, of course, the workers are somehow forced by the the govt to stay in that job.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
this is NOT about politics,

Of course it is ALL about politics otherwise they would NOT be using Pol Pot as an example.

As noted earlier, Henry Ford paid his workers considerably more than his competion to keep them working in a stressful assembly line process.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
"former France Telecom chief executive Didier Lombard has been charged with harassment after 35 workers committed suicide in two years. One left a note blaming overwork and what he called "management by terror". Lombard has rejected allegations that his efficiency measures – "essential plans for the survival of the company" – were to blame."

Where is any free market in France? Why didn't Lombard fear he would drive away employees?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Why not discuss the toxic work environment of Soviet gulags as documented by Solzhenitsyn?
"You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power - he's free again.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn"

Read more at http://www.brainy...QLGjH.99

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
" As recently as the 1999, Zimbabwe was a breadbasket of Africa, exporting up to 500,000 metric tons of surplus food. By 2003, Zimbabwe was starving. What happened during those three years was a Marxist socialist "land reform" program by Robert Mugabe that confiscated 4,500 white-owned commercial farms and redistributed the property to his own Shona ethnic group.

After 2003, more and more Zimbabweans have been dying of starvation, because Mugabe has destroyed the farm infrastructure. By 2008, the official rate of inflation was 231 million percent. Today, Zimbabwe's official currencies are the U.S. dollar and the South African rand. Zimbabwe was a wealthy country until 2000, until Mugabe almost literally destroyed it single-handedly. "
http://www.breitb...birthday
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
" "Scholars in the field of organisational studies have an ethical responsibility to analyse not just the best in organisations but also the worst. There are things we can learn to enable us both to avoid those sorts of outrages in the future and to avoid the worst excesses that organisations are capable of.""

How many scholars will study the failures of socialist states in the past and those failing now?

Why do the authors somehow believe ANY business leader can be worse than any political leader that can use a gun to force his victims to do anything?
There is NO legitimate comparison.
But then most 'scholars' are socialists and will refuse to take any critical look at the failures of socialism.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
"In this section of the book, Irwin explains that derailment doesn't happen overnight. It is a long process. He argues that "derailed leaders progress through five stages as they head toward their demise." Each of these become the subject of a single chapter:

Stage One: A Failure of Self/Other-Awareness
Stage Two: Hubris: Pride Before the Fall
Stage Three: Missed Early Warning Signals
Stage Four: Rationalizing
Stage Five: Derailment

The good news is that if you can detect these attitudes and behaviors in your own life, you have a fighting chance of staying on track and leaving a positive leadership legacy. "
http://michaelhya...win.html

"Business bestseller lists are heavy with tales of inspirational leadership "
And there are very many books about examples of failures so why to these 'scholars' believe they need to tie Pol Pot to business?

"Wisdom of Teams" s another book about failures.
Caliban
5 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
Well, gentlepersons,

It is apparent that firefly mal( a descendant of Pot or Rockefeller, perhaps?) embodies the very ideological and despotic inflexibility that is being highlighted in Prf Clegg's research.

A glaring example of precisely that which is to be avoided in both political and economic endeavor.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Feb 24, 2014
No, cali, this is just another example of moral equivalency by a 'liberal'.
And most likely an attempt to generate spin for Clegg.
A brief survey of leadership literature shows that examples of leadership failures abound, why they failed and how not to repeat their mistakes.
Caliban
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2014
no, ryggsuckn'.

While this study's conclusions should come as no surprise to any reasonable person, it still serves to highlight the very real risks involved in this way of ruling -either in the political or economic sphere.

It is equally obvious to any resaonable person that one frequently gives rise to the
other.

Further, it is instructive to everyone reading and or posting in these comments that both yourself and mr. firefly have conveniently avoided any mention of the Hitler or even Pinochet regimes.

Capitalism is no panacea, and is quite comfortable cozying up to any political system --and therefore confers exactly zero moral superiority polically, culturally, or economically.

And death by starvation, environmental poisoning, or lack of access to medical care is just as sure a death as by being shot in the head and dropped into a mass burying-pit.

Now take that back to your mangyhole and smoke it.

Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
The dictionary definition of fascism is: "a governmental system with strong centralized power . . . controlling all affairs of the nation (industrial, commercial, etc.) . . ." [The American College Dictionary,
New York: Random House, 1957.]

The difference between [socialism and fascism] is superficial and purely formal, but it is significant psychologically: it brings the authoritarian nature of a planned economy crudely into the open.

The main characteristic of socialism (and of communism) is public ownership of the means of production, and, therefore, the abolition of private property. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Under fascism, men retain the semblance or pretense of private property, but the government holds total power over its use and disposal.

[continued]
Firefly Mal
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
[continued]

Under fascism, citizens retain the responsibilities of owning property, without freedom to act. Under socialism, government officials acquire all the advantages of ownership, without any of the responsibilities, since they do not hold title to the property, but merely the right to use it.

In either case, the government officials hold the economic, political and legal power of life or death over the citizens.

It is an error to think either represents free market capitalism.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
"the example of Pol Pot "tells you that where you have leadership that is absolutely convinced of the moral rightness and ideological purposefulness of its mission, and demands conformity among members for the achievement of that mission, anything is possible – and the anythings that are possible are not necessarily good things."

Sounds like Obamacare. "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan." "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."
All were lies. The socialist knew they were lies.

The comment also sounds like AGWism. Note how AGWites are squirming to explain the failures of their faith.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
Since the late 1800's (the dawn of the progressive era) progressives have encouraged the belief that despised "private individuals," who practice free market capitalism (i.e. men who profit by producing good products at low cost and thus succeed by means of honest competition) are "bad" and men who compete by means of petitioning the state for special laws and government grants are good.

Since the late 1800's early 1900's (the dawn of the progressive era) liberals have been trying to convince us that market entrepreneurs – despised "private individuals who accumulate wealth," – are bad and political entrepreneurs are good.

Market entrepreneur's are people, businessmen, who try to succeed by competing in the marketplace by producing a good quality product and selling it at a competitive price. Market entrepreneurs succeed by producing high quality goods to please consumers.

[continued]
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
"In a watershed moment and a huge victory over environmentalists, General Electric has agreed to stop projects that are designed solely for the purpose of carbon dioxide reductions to please those who lobby for climate change concessions. "
http://www.breitb...dvocates

Corporations MUST be resonsive to their customers and their shareholders.

"Last month, staff of the California Public Utilities Commission changed a prior recommendation and called for PG&E to pay $2.25 billion in penalties for the explosion that killed eight people in San Bruno, California, including a $300 million fine for violating safety rules. "
http://www.bloomb...tcy.html
Another example of the failure of state monopolies.
Firefly Mal
2 / 5 (4) Feb 25, 2014
[continued]

Political entrepreneurs try to succeed by using a government subsidy, some form of government regulation, or government hand-out to compete – this, notably, is not the practice of capitalism.

The state cannot become positioned to doll out such favors without the cooperation (i.e. the corruption) of men who willingly vote it such authority.

The effort by liberals to maintain the confusion (between market entrepreneur's and political entrepreneurs in the minds of the public) is indicative of their desire for an absolute form of statism.
Firefly Mal
2 / 5 (4) Feb 25, 2014
The term "statism" designates concentration of power in the state – this being justified by some notion of "the common good." In such totalitarian regimes there is no longer any distinction between private matters and public matters. "There are to be no more private Germans," said Friedrich Sieburg, a Nazi writer. The idea that underlies the advocacy of omnipotent government, the idea that totalitarians of every kind stress as the justification of their total states: collectivism.

Collectivism is the theory that the group (the collective) has primacy over the individual. Collectivism holds that, in human affairs, the collective—society, community, nation, the proletariat, the race, etc.—is the unit of reality and the standard of value. On this view, the individual has reality only as part of the group, and value only insofar as he serves it; on his own he has no political rights; he is to be sacrificed for the group whenever it—or its representative, the state—deems this desirable.
Firefly Mal
2 / 5 (4) Feb 25, 2014
Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of control. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property—so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.

If "ownership" means the right to determine the use and disposal of material goods, then Nazism endowed the state with every real prerogative of ownership. What the individual retained was merely a formal deed, a contentless deed, which conferred no rights on its holder. Under communism, there is collective ownership of property de jure. Under Nazism, there is the same collective ownership de facto.
Firefly Mal
2 / 5 (4) Feb 25, 2014
The trend in the U.S., sadly, is toward a fascist system with communist slogans. But what all of today's pressure groups are busy evading is the fact that neither business nor labor nor anyone else, except the ruling clique, gains anything under fascism or communism or any form of statism—that all become victims of an impartial, egalitarian destruction.

This paper aids and abets that trend by presenting what amounts to nothing more than a gross smear of businessmen which depends on evasion, fallacy, and obfuscation.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
What still baffles me, somewhat, is why all those who claim they support science, support logic, will attack Mal and the sound logic he is describing.
I see two reasons why Cali and so many others here support statism/soclisms/fascism/communism/'progressiveness'...1) stupidity-they choose to remain ignorant; 2) they are selfish and desire the power or have been bought off by the state power.
Hayek argued for #2, the 'intellectual' is bought off by the power. The state is the only customer for what these 'intellectuals' have to sell. The 'intellectual', like Clegg, can't sell his tripe to a free market place of ideas as no one will buy.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (2) Feb 25, 2014
What still baffles me, somewhat, is why all those who claim they support science, support logic, will attack Mal and the sound logic he is describing.
Politics, of any flavour, do not belong on a science board. Soft sciences, such as this article, always seem to provoke the loonies to spit out their bile and denigration of others in support of whatever particular philosophe they favour.

What baffles me is why anyone (excepting trolls, whose motivation is the sowing of discord for personal gratification) would think that such tripe is ok to post on a science site.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
Well Maggy, as long as physorg deems it appropriate to be political, I will deem it appropriate to comment.
I noticed Maggy refused to support socialism.
Popper didn't shy away from pointing out the fallacies of Marxism so why do the socialists here, who claim to like science, and presumably logic, refuse to defend socialism yet attack free markets and limited govt?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2014
"the fact that reality does not match the preconceptions of the intelligentsia shows that there is something wrong with reality, for which somebody must be blamed. Apparently their preconceptions cannot be wrong."
"Women, like so many other groups, seem not to be dedicated to fulfilling the prevailing fetish among the intelligentsia that every demographic group should be equally represented in all sorts of places.

Women have their own agendas, and if these agendas do not usually include computer engineering, what is to be done? Draft women into engineering schools to satisfy the preconceptions of our self-anointed saviors? Or will a propaganda campaign be sufficient to satisfy those who think that they should be making other people's choices for them?

That kind of thinking is how we got ObamaCare."

Read more: http://www.realcl...uM57QSqG
Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 25, 2014
What still baffles me, somewhat, is why all those who claim they support science, support logic, will attack Mal and the sound logic he is describing

sound logic, true. But misplaced as it is predominantly irrelevant to the article
just as all Ryggs posts are irrelevant and politically motivated TROLLING
see Maggnus points above
What baffles me is why anyone (excepting trolls, whose motivation is the sowing of discord for personal gratification) would think that such tripe is ok to post on a science site

Hey MAGGNUS!
Check out this link
let me know if you see anyone you know (rygg, jvk, etc etc)
http://arstechnic...sadists/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Feb 25, 2014
Now stump joins in failing to support and defend socialism.
Like all good socialists, he would rather attack those who are critical of his faith: socialism, AGWism.
Maggnus
5 / 5 (1) Feb 25, 2014
Hey MAGGNUS!
Check out this link


Haha that's great Stumpy, what a perfect link for this article!
four "noxious" personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism.
OMG JVK, cantdrive, rygg, and Uba! hahahahaahhaa!!!!
Firefly Mal
2 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
The paper shows no correlation between business practices and the inhumane activities of totalitarian regimes.

The policies of totalitarian regimes are concerned with murdering en-mass political or intellectual opposition, imprisoning and/or torturing real or potential opposition, and enslaving populations. This is the direct purpose of policy in totalitarian regimes.

Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone. This should be obvious.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (2) Feb 27, 2014
I've listed 23 totalitarian regimes responsible for a total global death-toll of 149,469,610 people – the regime responsible for the highest body count being the People's Republic of China, body count 73,237,000, and the lowest being the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen body count 1,000. The point being that the policies enacted by totalitarian regimes have real-world, tangible, factual, and verifiable consequence.

For all of Lesley Parker's hand-waving in this article – she has produced no evidence of any correlation (between business management policy and totalitarian policy) and certainly there is no real-world, tangible, factual, verifiable consequence matching the body count attributable to totalitarian regimes.
Deadbolt
5 / 5 (2) Feb 27, 2014
You keep talking about free societies under capitalism, but I don't see any. I'm not even arguing that your libertarian ideology is wrong. I'm not even getting into that. What I am arguing is that current actually existing capitalism is predicated on a whole fuck ton of force. Actually existing capitalism isn't consistent with libertarian ideology.

Actually existing capitalism doesn't have to respect the NAP or bodily property, which is why there have been slave states like the Confederacy operating under capitalism with the trading of slaves as property.

The industrial revolution and capitalism didn't start in the UK til land owners kicked peasants off land they were already using as commons. I don't care whether a free society with capitalism might be possible, when we are talking about things which actually exist. Authoritarian business structures in private property have and do exist, such as the fuhrer prinzip in Nazi Germany.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
1. Firefly_Mal is not Libertarian, and does not hold or espouse a Libertarian ideology.

2. Statism is not capitalism. A statist system—whether of a communist, fascist, Nazi, socialist or "welfare" type—is based on the government's unlimited power, which means: on the rule of brute force. See my five posts dated February 25 illustrating the distinction, starting with "The dictionary definition of fascism is ..."

3. Southern slave-owners were not capitalists.

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

A human being cannot be "property" under capitalism. Slave-owners and slave-traders are criminals, not capitalists.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone. This should be obvious

@mal
quit playing stupid. No one said that they did!
The policies of totalitarian regimes are concerned with murdering en-mass political or intellectual opposition, imprisoning and/or torturing real or potential opposition, and enslaving populations

this is where you have blinders on.
you are assuming that MURDER etc is the primary motivator, when it is a RESULT of the primary motivator, which is CONTROL.
The POLICIES are designed to CONTROL, the result of those policies is that murder en-mass etc happens... dictators need to control a situation before they can issue proclamations: without CONTROL, they are no better than targets for opposition.

AND THIS IS HOW IT TIES TO MANAGEMENT OF BUSINESS.
Not murder (an after effect of strict control of totalitarian dictatorial regimes)
not imprisonment/etc... these are the after effects.
NOW do you understand?
Maggnus
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
you are assuming that MURDER etc is the primary motivator, when it is a RESULT of the primary motivator, which is CONTROL.
Well said and spot on.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Feb 27, 2014
You keep talking about free societies under capitalism, but I don't see any.

Correct.
All govts today are socialist of one form or another.
Firefly Mal
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 27, 2014
I understand perfectly. Lesley Parker's paper depends on context-dropping.

Context-dropping is one of the chief psychological tools of both evasion and deception. There are two major ways of context-dropping: the issues of range and of means.

Whenever you tear an idea from its context and treat it as though it were a self-sufficient, independent item, you invalidate the thought process involved. If you omit the context, or even a crucial aspect of it, then no matter what you say it will not be valid.

A context-dropper forgets or evades any wider context. He stares at only one element, and he thinks, "I can deceive them if I change just this one point." In fact, everything is interconnected. That one element involves a whole context, and to assess a change in one element, you must see what it means in the whole context.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
I understand perfectly. Lesley Parker's paper depends on context-dropping.

@mal
ok
provide PROOF
show me WHERE there is context dropping... and NOT by posting all that spamming crap you already posted, as it is irrelevant to the topic.
You are ASSUMING it is relevant, but it is nothing but SPAM

I already tried to show you logically, but you refuse to see anything other than your own delusions.

SO...
post a link to the study
then show me/us SPECIFICALLY where the issues are
make sure it can be accessed by everyone
because there will SURE be a lot of people checking up on your statements
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
Lesley Parker's paper depends on context-dropping.

@mal
by the way.. before you get all super psycho and continue to spam... Lesley Parker is the AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE... this article above...
the PAPER is written by Clegg...
Professor Clegg and his fellow researchers have isolated 20 principles that underpin totalitarian organisations

so...
I would HIGHLY recommend getting all your facts straight before issuing what is likely going to be seen as just continuous libel / slander and malicious TROLLING and SPAMMING

Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
This is all the proof I need to provide: The paper shows no correlation between business practices and the inhumane activities of totalitarian regimes – the only way to suggest a correlation is to drop-context. i.e. to tear the idea of "control" out of the context manifest in totalitarian regimes and improperly assert the "range" and "means" of "that" manifestation as identical to the practice of business management when in fact (the range and means) are not identical.

The policies of totalitarian regimes are concerned with murdering en-mass political or intellectual opposition, imprisoning and/or torturing real or potential opposition, and enslaving populations. This is the direct purpose of policy in totalitarian regimes.

Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone. This should be obvious.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
I've listed 23 totalitarian regimes responsible for a total global death-toll of 149,469,610 people – the regime responsible for the highest body count being the People's Republic of China, body count 73,237,000, and the lowest being the People's Democratic Republic of Yemen body count 1,000.

"The point being:" that the policies enacted by totalitarian regimes have real-world, tangible, factual, and verifiable consequence. So, not spam and directly applicable.

For all of Lesley Parker's hand-waving in this article she has produced no evidence of any correlation and certainly there is no real-world, tangible, factual, verifiable consequence matching the body count attributable to totalitarian regimes.

A correlation that depends on context-dropping is not a correlation at all.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
The paper shows no correlation between business practices and the inhumane activities of totalitarian regimes

@mal
what about
isolated 20 principles that underpin totalitarian organisations. For instance, leaders – or managers – within such organisations demand conformity, maintain their distance, are selective in their "mercies" and favour certain people with perks and benefits. They also ensure a ceaseless round of activity leaves little room for reflection.

this is the correlation, it just does not spell out all 20 principles. It only points to a few, then provides examples:
former France Telecom chief

Foxconn

etc

therefore, you can draw the conclusion: business managers who DEMAND CONFORMITY, MAINTAIN THEIR DISTANCE, ARE SELECTIVE IN THEIR MERCIES and FAVOUR CERTAIN PEOPLE WI/PERKS are acting like dictatorial control freaks such as Pol Pot.

THERE: PROVEN CORRELATION

...2 B cntd
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
...cont from last post
@mal
also... you should RE-READ the last TWO PARAGRAPHS OF THE ARTICLE a few times and REALLY LET IT SINK IN...
it pretty much verifies what I just said above
Professor Clegg says the example of Pol Pot "tells you that where you have leadership that is absolutely convinced of the moral rightness and ideological purposefulness of its mission, and demands conformity among members for the achievement of that mission, anything is possible – and the anythings that are possible are not necessarily good things."

which only serves to validate my conclusions

shall we ask Clegg to supply the study to verify the claims? Or to address your proclamations directly?
Glad you agree!
I've already posted a request for clarification to him. I hope you dont mind me using your quotes...
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
For all of Lesley Parker's hand-waving in this article she has produced no evidence of any correlation and certainly there is no real-world, tangible, factual, verifiable consequence matching the body count attributable to totalitarian regimes

@mal
see:
In China, a wave of suicides drew attention to work practices at Foxconn

&
In France, former France Telecom chief executive Didier Lombard has been charged with harassment after 35 workers committed suicide in two years


maybe not the death toll you are wanting... but real world results...
you may also be able to draw a conclusion that it ties into high turnover in the employees as well
but since I dont have the study I cant say whether this was addressed in it
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
matching the body count attributable to totalitarian regimes.

@mal
you do realise that your whole argument centers around the death toll, which, by the way, has absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the article?

The article is NOT about businesses having death tolls that equal dictators... it is about the practices that those dictators USE TO CONTROL THEIR REGIME and how they are similar to the PRACTICES that CERTAIN TYPES OF MANAGERS USE in business...
which, by the way, makes all your posts nothing more than SPAM

like it or not, your posts here are nothing but a personal attack on Clegg, Parker (and maybe more involved) because you could not understand the article, which makes your continued references nothing but more evidence should someone feel litigious …

you have no valid grounds for your argument other than you dont like the persons above

AND no excuse, as this was already pointed out earlier.
PEACE
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone. This should be obvious

@mal
had to point this out again... STOP BEING AN IDIOT
THIS WAS NEVER SAID
NOR WAS IT INFERRED
AGAIN...this is where you have blinders on.
you are assuming that MURDER etc is the primary motivator, when it is a RESULT of the primary motivator, which is CONTROL.
The POLICIES are designed to CONTROL, the result of those policies is that murder en-mass etc happens... dictators need to control a situation before they can issue proclamations: without CONTROL, they are no better than targets for opposition.

AND THIS IS HOW IT TIES TO MANAGEMENT OF BUSINESS.
Not murder (an after effect of strict control of totalitarian dictatorial regimes)
not imprisonment/etc... these are the after effects in totalitarian regimes, in BUSINESS it would be seen as stressed workplace, high turnover (likely), etc etc

READ THE DAMN ARTICLE AND QUIT BEING STUPID

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Feb 27, 2014
NO RELEVANCE to the article?

And Pol Pot has no relevance to business.
Why do you insist that murdering socialists tyrants have any relevance to commercial business organization?
it is about the practices that those dictators USE TO CONTROL THEIR REGIME

Then the comparisons should have been made to equivalent govt regimes, like Obama's regime or any other organization that has the power to legally kill those under their control.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (2) Feb 27, 2014
I'll repeat my comment of February 18: "The management of Foxconn is entirely native Chinese citizens. The Foxconn practices, i.e. "military style drills and forced public reading of self-criticisms" originate from the dominant cultural philosophy, which is rooted in Maoist and Marxist doctrine."

Only by dropping-context can a connection to business management en-total be made.

Whenever you tear an idea from its context and treat it as though it were a self-sufficient, independent item, you invalidate the thought process involved. If you omit the context, or even a crucial aspect of it, then no matter what you say it will not be valid.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 27, 2014
France Telecom had 100,000 employees.

That 35 of those employees committed suicide is an established fact.

That this number of suicides, within a population of 100,000 people, within the time frame in question, is statistically normal is also a fact.

That in each case of suicide, the individuals had a documented history of mental or psychological issues is also a fact.

That the charge of harassment was brought after a complaint by labor Unions with a vested interest in the collection of Union dues is also a fact. France Telecom's restructuring plan sought to reduce headcount by 22,000.

Only by dropping-context can a connection to business management en-total be made.

Whenever you tear an idea from its context and treat it as though it were a self-sufficient, independent item, you invalidate the thought process involved. If you omit the context, or even a crucial aspect of it, then no matter what you say it will not be valid.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (4) Feb 27, 2014
One more time for those who can read but not comprehend: The paper shows no correlation between business practices and the inhumane activities of totalitarian regimes – the only way to suggest correlation is to drop-context, i.e. to tear the idea of "control" out of the context manifest in totalitarian regimes and make the blanket claim that "range" and "means" of "control" is identical in the practice of business management – when it is not.

The evidence that it is not is as follows: The policies of totalitarian regimes are concerned with murdering en-mass political or intellectual opposition, imprisoning and/or torturing real or potential opposition, and enslaving populations. This is the direct purpose of policy in totalitarian regimes.

Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone. Why? Because their purpose is different. This should be obvious.
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (5) Feb 27, 2014
A corporation is a union of human beings in a voluntary, cooperative endeavor. It exemplifies the principle of free association, which is an expression of the right to freedom.

In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate.

There is no totalitarianism involved.

In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary.

Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
The Foxconn practices,

@mal
only support the hypothesis in the article, as do the other claims
lack of comprehension on your part may be due to language barrier or other factors
Only by dropping-context can a connection to business management en-total be made

only by stupidity can the correlation not be seen
Whenever you tear an idea ... it will not be valid

not applicable to this article
just because you cannot comprehend does not mean it is not true
either get an education or learn to comprehend basic english
is statistically normal is also a fact

personal conjecture
proof?links?
Only by dropping-context can a connection to business management en-total be made

personal conjecture due to: stupidity and lack of comprehension
provide proof/links
or provide the study that the article is based upon and give evidence
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
@mal cont'd
One more time for those who can read but not comprehend: The paper shows no correlation between business practices and the inhumane activities of totalitarian regimes

personal conjecture
without proof of study, claim is as valid as: unicorn farts make rainbows
the only way to suggest correlation is to drop-context

the only way to NOT see a correlation is to stick your head up your bum
or to ignore the data in front of you (see above multiple posts explaining it all)
take your pick
Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone.

already established as irrelevant
Because their purpose is different

ignorant assumption that murder is a causal motivator
motivation is CONTROL
therefore purpose is exactly the same
Please see a mental health professional
(or english teacher, whichever is relevant)
SEE ABOVE for supporting data in multi-posts
tired of typing same thing over and over for stupid people
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
Businessmen do not formulate policy aimed to murder, imprison, or torture anyone. Why? Because their purpose is different.

@mal
what is OBVIOUS is that you have comprehension issues and cannot understand basic English
this is a case now of stupidity, not ignorance, given all the above posts
I will say it ONE MORE TIME

YOU ARE ASSUMING wrongly that the core issue is murder, torture, etc... it is NOT
it is an EFFECT of CONTROL
the sociopath needs to MANIPULATE, DOMINATE AND CONTROL
this leads to cause and effect
in the totalitarian regime, it leads to torture, death, etc as you state
BUT
in the business world, it leads to high stress for subordinates, high turnover, "leadership that is absolutely convinced of the moral rightness and ideological purposefulness of its mission", demands of conformity, strong corporate cultures, favoritism, aloof mgt, ceaseless activity to take away time to think/react... SAME AS TOTALITARIAN REGIME MGT but without extreme effects, like homocide
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 27, 2014
In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate.

@mal
lastly... this is PROOF that you cannot comprehend the issue in the article above. This is NOT about capitalism. This is about sociopathic behaviour manifested by managers in the business world.
You can play stupid all you want (why not, Rygg does it)
but this is NOT the issue
the issue is about sociopathic behaviour.
READ THE STUDY
NOT THE ARTICLE... THE STUDY
when you are done, link it
get a copy from Clegg

the end result will be the same. The correlations will be the same.
You cannot see that because you are looking as though this is a capitalistic vs socialistic/dictatorship/totalitarian issue.
This is a sociopath vs NON sociopath issue which shows itself through behavioural cues.
MANIPULATION, DOMINATION, CONTROL of subordinates
Firefly Mal
1 / 5 (3) Feb 28, 2014
I've read the article and objectively assessed the claims and statements made by both Parker and Clegg.

I've illustrated my chain of reasoning and tendered my judgment.

My judgment is not dependant on any one individual's acceptance of it – it is evidence based, it sweeps the full range of context presented, and it is complete. It is not subject to any demands of proof, it needs none.

No amount of ad hominem or wildly irrational accusations or threats can sway that judgment.

Feel free to emote and rant, drool vitriol and rave as you will – it is of no consequence. I have said all I have to say.
kochevnik
5 / 5 (2) Feb 28, 2014
@Firefly In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate.
You confuse capitalism with Star Trek. The latter had eliminated capitalism, ironically
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Feb 28, 2014
My judgment is not dependant on any one individual's acceptance of it – it is evidence based

@mal
what a load of malarkey
IF it is evidence based, please produce it
(you CANNOT, because there is NO EVIDENCE to produce)
it sweeps the full range of context presented

no, it doesn't
you went off into delusional la-la land and made erroneous claims
there is NO BASIS for your claims other than your personal prejudice and politically driven fantasies which have imagined something that does NOT exist
It is not subject to any demands of proof, it needs none

NOW I understand!
THE MARK OF A TRUE PSEUDOSCIENCE CRACKPOT!!
there is NO NEED for evidence, for you have pronounced judgement!

Thanks for clearing that up
you are just a SPAMMING TROLL!
NOW we know to just ignore/scroll when you post, like we do with Rygg!
Deadbolt
5 / 5 (3) Feb 28, 2014

In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary.


Then there are no capitalist societies.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Feb 28, 2014
Why does stumpy get so excited about pointing out that murdering socialist tyrants are in no way equivalent to business leaders?
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Mar 04, 2014
Why does stumpy get so excited about pointing out that murdering socialist tyrants are in no way equivalent to business leaders?


not excited
I just dont like pseudoscience
nor postings that are obvious stupidity
I only ignore rygg because it is pointless to feed the trolls

@mal
I got the study directly from Clegg. I will be posting evidence directly from the study Saturday.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 04, 2014
The point still remains, stump, why do you, or anyone, believe that any comparison of a murdering tyrant like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot with any CEO operating a business, not under the jurisdiction of any socialist tyrant, is valid?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Mar 04, 2014
"Totalitarian regimes are not only social and political movements but also "organisational projects""
Just like any project run by any community organizer, like Obama.
What's the difference?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 04, 2014
"Coca-Cola is reporting declining sales in North America and even globally. Its stock price has been hit. Consumer tastes seem to be shifting from heavily carbonated and sugary drinks in general toward bottled water, sports drinks, and energy drinks. "
"Why does this matter? Ringing in my ears right now are the many years of hysterical commentaries I've heard from intellectuals who have railed against the supposed power that coke has over the globe. They complain that coke signs festoon the world, that this drink has bamboozled the masses for more than a century, that this drink is the most visible sign of capitalism's corruption."
"It's advertising alone demonstrates that Coke has no actual "power" in the same way that the police have. It has no capacity to compel anyone to drink its product. "
"Of all the beautiful things about the market economy, its most wonderful feature is its capacity to confound the intellectuals with unrelenting surprise and counterintuitive results. "

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 04, 2014
(cont)
"Powerful people can slow down the world but they can't stop it from changing. Thanks to the market, we will forever find ourselves rediscovering the great truth that the course of world events is not something anyone — not even a corporate giant like Coca-Cola — can finally control."
http://dailycalle...power/2/
The power Clegg claims business organization have has ZERO correlation to the power a socialist tyrant has, or even a community organizer like BHO.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (1) Mar 04, 2014
The point still remains, stump, why do you, or anyone, believe that any comparison of a murdering tyrant like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot with any CEO operating a business, not under the jurisdiction of any socialist tyrant, is valid?

@Rygg
first things first:
how can you make judgements about a study you haven't read?

they are comparing the other stuff... the management style of the murdering tyrant to the mgmnt styles of modern business mgmnt

just because the tyrant was a murdering lunatic, doesnt mean that we cannot learn from his past examples, and this is where you are having the issue. You think that the study is claiming something that it is not.

It is not saying that every business mgr is a murdering tyrant, it is comparing the mgt. Style used by people that are considered "extreme examples" and correlating it with what we know now.

Just because you have your head stuck up your anus and cant see where mgmnt relates to mgmnt, doesn't mean we are all idiots.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 04, 2014
they are comparing the other stuff... the management style of the murdering tyrant to the mgmnt styles of modern business mgmnt

Just as useful as comparing it to the management style of a rock.

Maggnus
5 / 5 (1) Mar 04, 2014
Just as useful as comparing it to the management style of a rock.
More useful than attempting to have anything resembling an intelligent conversation with you. Tell me, when you shake your head, can you hear the rocks bang together?
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (3) Mar 04, 2014
Clegg must have tenure.

Please sign in to add a comment. Registration is free, and takes less than a minute. Read more

Click here to reset your password.
Sign in to get notified via email when new comments are made.