High-Arctic heat tops 1,800-year high, says study

Sep 28, 2012 by Kim Martineau
Glaciers on Svalbard are retreating rapidly. Credit: William D’Andrea

(Phys.org)—Summers on the Norwegian archipelago of Svalbard are now warmer than at any other time in the last 1,800 years, including during medieval times when parts of the northern hemisphere were as hot as, or hotter, than today, according to a new study in the journal Geology.

"The was not as uniformly warm as we once thought—we can start calling it the Medieval Period again," said the study's lead author, William D'Andrea, a at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. "Our record indicates that recent summer temperatures on Svalbard are greater than even the warmest periods at that time."

The naturally driven Medieval Warm Period, from about 950 to 1250, has been a favorite time for people who deny evidence that humans are heating the planet with industrial . But the climate reconstruction from Svalbard casts new doubt on that era's reach, and undercuts skeptics who argue that current warming is also natural. Since 1987, summers on Svalbard have been 2 degrees to 2.5 degrees C (3.6 to 4.5 degrees F) hotter than they were there during warmest parts of the Medieval Warm Period, the study found.

Researchers produced the 1,800 year climate record by analyzing levels of unsaturated fats in algae buried in the sediments of Kongressvatnet lake, in western Svalbard. In colder water, algae make more unsaturated fats, or alkenones; in warmer water, they produce more saturated fats. Like pages in a book, the unsaturation level of fats can provide a record of past climate.  So far, most Arctic have come from ice cores that preserve only annual layers of cold-season snowfall, and thus cold-season temperatures. But lake sediments, with their record of summertime temperatures, can tell scientists how climate varied the rest of the year and in places where ice sheets are absent.
 
 "We need both ice core and lake sediment records," said Elisabeth Isaksson, a glaciologist at the Norwegian Polar Institute who was not involved in the study. "Here, Billy has found something that tells a different, more detailed story."
 
In looking at how summers on Svalbard varied, researchers also discovered that the region was not particularly cold during another recent anomalous period—the "Little Ice Age" of the 18th and 19th centuries, when glaciers on Svalbard surged to their greatest extent in the last 10,000 years and glaciers in many parts of Western Europe also grew.They suggest that more snow, rather than colder temperatures, may have fed the growth of Svalbard glaciers. 

Evidence from tree rings and ice cores shows that southern Greenland and parts of North America were warmer from 950 to 1250 than today, with the Vikings taking advantage of ice-free waters to settle Greenland. Some regions also saw prolonged drought, including California, Nevada and the Mississippi Valley, leading some scientists to coin the term Medieval Climate Anomaly to emphasize the extreme shift in precipitation rather than temperature. A natural increase in solar radiation during this time was responsible for warming parts of the , with a rise in volcanic activity from 1100 to 1260 causing milder winters, University of Massachusetts scientist Ray Bradley explained in a 2003 Perspective piece in Science. Bradley is a co-author of the Svalbard lake sediment study.
 
Western Svalbard began to gradually warm in 1600, the researchers found, when the northern arm of the Gulf Stream, known as the West Spitsbergen Current, may have brought more tropical water to the region. In 1890, the warming began to accelerate, with researchers attributing most of the warming since about 1960 to rising industrial greenhouse gas levels. Ice cores from Svalbard, by contrast, show a slight cooling over the last 1,800 years. The conflicting evidence suggests that temperatures may have fluctuated more sharply between winter and summer, said Anne Hormes, a quaternary geologist at the University Centre in Svalbard who was not involved in the study.

D'Andrea and his colleagues dated their lake cores by analyzing grains of glass spewed by volcanoes hundreds of miles away in Iceland. Those past eruptions— Snæfellsjökullin 170, Hekla in 1104 and Öræfajökull in 1362—all left unique chemical time markers on Svalbard's . "We know fairly precisely when these eruptions occurred, which is rare in the geologic record," said study co-author Nicholas Balascio, a scientist at University of Massachusetts, Amherst.

Recent temperature measurements show that the Arctic is warming twice as fast as the rest of the planet, with sea ice this summer shrinking to its smallest extent on record. Natural feedbacks are amplifying the warming as loss of reflective sea ice causes the ocean to absorb more of the sun's energy, melting more sea ice, which causes more energy absorption, and so on. Climate models suggest that by 2100 Svalbard will warm more than any other landmass on earth, due to a combination of sea-ice loss and changes in atmospheric and oceanic circulation, according to the International Panel on Climate Change 2007 report. In a study published last year in the journal Advances in Meteorology, Norwegian researchers estimate that average winter temperature in Svalbard could rise by as much as 10 degrees C, or 18 degrees Fahrenheit.

Explore further: Image: Rub' al Khali desert imaged by Sentinel-1

More information: geology.gsapubs.org/content/ea… 18/G33365.1.abstract

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VendicarD
3 / 5 (27) Sep 28, 2012
Arctic warming? Impossible!

The southern half of Washington State is cooling, and my refrigerator has never been colder.

But wait.... On the other hand, Mars is warming. So it must be that the martians are beaming their heat to the Earth's north pole in their dastardly plan to support the Democrats.

I'm sure I read that on some Heritage Foundation supported ConsrvaTard blog somewhere.

According to former Radio weather announcer Antony Watts, the Martians are out to destroy our peach trees.

I 4 1 believe him.
rubberman
2.8 / 5 (25) Sep 28, 2012
No No...it's the socialists, and their target is the pear trees. I drove off 5 of them that were weilding an axe late this summer when they came after our pear tree, which is why they resorted to these climate alteration tactics. I threatened them with free market retaliation and they relented back to the IPCC to do a study on how and why my tactics worked. I expect a tax on my pear tree once they successfully model how much I can afford to pay over the next 30 years. In the end i will win because I will cast doubt on their models and plant pear trees disguised as apple trees (not peach in case Vendi is correct about the damn Martians). New record for Antarctic sea ice this year! It was the arctic cyclone. Here's a link to some interesting numbers:

http://www.ferret...rt2.html

There were palm trees in greenland when the minnesota vikings settled there. They thought it was green bay, because of the dairy farms and the abundance of cheese...idiots!

Romney rules!
rubberman
2.7 / 5 (19) Sep 28, 2012
Whew! Glad I got that off my chest....anybody want to get a pool going on which country opens the first arctic time share?
plaasjaapie
2.5 / 5 (17) Sep 28, 2012
"The naturally driven Medieval Warm Period, from about 950 to 1250, has been a favorite time for people who deny evidence that humans are heating the planet with industrial greenhouse gases."

Which begs the question of whether this alleged warming period is also "naturally driven". :-/
NotParker
2.1 / 5 (25) Sep 28, 2012
Basically, if you read the article, everywhere but Svalbard was warmer than today during the MWP.

And during the LIA, every place was colder than Svalbard.

Ok.
Meyer
3.6 / 5 (18) Sep 28, 2012
I'm going to throw away my thermometer and just measure tree rings and unsaturated fats in the algae out at the pond. The method should give me a reading to within 0.5C for the entire state, which is good enough for most purposes.
JoeBlue
2.3 / 5 (19) Sep 28, 2012
It's summer for the Northern hemisphere during one of the most active periods of solar cycles. Then again it must be those evil humans breathing up there again.
Jitterbewegung
1.5 / 5 (15) Sep 28, 2012
The question that needs to be asked is why is the Arctic warming faster?
We know how bad CO2 is;-) so is CO2 consentrating in the Arctic for some reason?
My guess is that the crust is thinning below the arctic to enhance the CO2 effect.
What else could cause such a large localised heating to a planet?
thermodynamics
3.5 / 5 (16) Sep 28, 2012
Basically, if you read the article, everywhere but Svalbard was warmer than today during the MWP.

And during the LIA, every place was colder than Svalbard.

Ok.


NP: You appear to have the attention span of a gnat. What happened to "it was the cyclone." That seemed to be your answer up until this article. Does that head of yours just keep spinning?
VendicarD
3.2 / 5 (18) Sep 28, 2012
You mean like everywhere but 5 American states are warming?

Has that stopped you from using those 5 states to claim that the world is cooling?

"Basically, if you read the article, everywhere but Svalbard was warmer than today during the MWP." - ParkerTard

Poor Mentally Diseased ParkerTard.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (22) Sep 28, 2012
So why was it hotter 1800 years ago?
VendicarD
3.3 / 5 (15) Sep 28, 2012
"We find that the summer warmth of the past 50 yr recorded in both the instrumental and alkenone records was unmatched in West Spitsbergen in the course of the past 1800 yr, including during the Medieval Climate Anomaly, and that summers during the Little Ice Age (LIA) of the 18th and 19th centuries on Svalbard were not particularly cold" - Article Abstract

ParkerTard thinks that the areas around Spitsbergen must somehow have been magically warmer. Perhaps this was due to magic pixie dust that kept a static column of air over Spitsbergen that never moved and prevented surrounding air from warming or cooling the place.

Maybe it was those darned Martians again.
VendicarD
3.2 / 5 (13) Sep 28, 2012
Poor RyggTard. He reads the words in the article but his denialist brain just can't accept the reality.

"So why was it hotter 1800 years ago?" - RyggTard

It wasn't hotter 1800 years ago. It was cooler than today.

Denialism is a mental disease.
VendicarD
3.2 / 5 (16) Sep 28, 2012
It is because the ice is melting, and the albedo is changing very rapidly.

"The question that needs to be asked is why is the Arctic warming faster?" - JitterBoy
VendicarD
3.1 / 5 (15) Sep 28, 2012
And yet this year hasn't been particularly warm. Are the moon men forcing all that extra sunlight (there is none really) toward the North Pole? Are Santa's Elves in on the conspiracy?

What is more interesting is that it is the surface of the earth that is warming rapidly while the upper atmosphere is cooling.

Shouldn't the upper atmosphere be warming if the sun is responsible?

Why.. Yes... It should be...

"It's summer for the Northern hemisphere during one of the most active periods of solar cycles." - JoeBlue
VendicarD
3.2 / 5 (16) Sep 28, 2012
Yes. It is very much like asking of JFK didn't really die of natural causes, and the bullet that blew out much of his brain was in fact beneficial to his health.

Can you prove otherwise?

"Which begs the question of whether this alleged warming period is also "naturally driven" - FoofieLaPoufie
Jeddy_Mctedder
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 29, 2012
solar power and wind power, thats the ticket to solving all of our problems, and if not, modern world be damned lets go back to the middle ages when people deforested the world because they did not yet think to mine peat, which ran out, and then to think of mining coal, and then oil and then.....

don't worry , the stoneages will be a great choice.

/sarc
RobPaulG
2.2 / 5 (17) Sep 29, 2012
Too bad the alarmists have no credibility after their past manipulations of data(climategate). They need to clean out the manipulators among their ranks or they will never be believed.
runrig
3.5 / 5 (13) Sep 29, 2012
Too bad the alarmists have no credibility after their past manipulations of data(climategate). They need to clean out the manipulators among their ranks or they will never be believed.


Give a link from a credible source that verifies this assertion of yours please.
VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (13) Sep 29, 2012
Rob is living in some RepubliTard fantasy land where illegally releasing emails magically makes the content of the emails evidence of data manipulation.

"Too bad the alarmists have no credibility after their past manipulations of data" - RobTard

The trick when dealing with people like RobTard, is to show them all the respect they deserve.
VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (13) Sep 29, 2012
He doesn't have one. He is just another Ignorant Republican Liar.

"Give a link from a credible source that verifies this assertion of yours please." - RunRig

djr
4.6 / 5 (11) Sep 29, 2012
don't worry , the stoneages will be a great choice.

The stone age is what you get when luddites like you are in charge. Want to see what happens when creative minds get working on an issue? Take a look Germany, or Portugal, or Denmark. It is remarkable how fast renewables have developed. Here is one article just for starters - you know - if you might be interested in what can happen if we choose positive solutions - instead of staying stuck in the negative. http://www.guardi...-denmark 100% renewable by 2050 - pretty amazing.
VendicarD
3.5 / 5 (11) Sep 29, 2012
Isn't the stone age the state that Republicans want America to return to.

The never existing era of the Cowboy gunslinger, and his trusty horse.

Isn't old TV series Gun Smoke the Republican model for every American city?

http://www.youtub...ojnM9tlc
hagger
2 / 5 (12) Sep 29, 2012
warmer and no industry..CO2 is the lowest it has ever been..it's getting warm because we are coming out of a cold cycle..but hey..raise our taxes reduce our movement, but the rich..business as usual..
djr
4.2 / 5 (10) Sep 29, 2012
"raise our taxes" That raise our taxes mantra is getting so old - you are just spouting thoughtless ideology. Are you aware that solar panels in Germany (yes - that communist country over there in communist Europe) cost $2 a watt installed. In the U.S. they cost $6 a watt. Why? the overburden of regulation here in the heart of the free market center of the universe. Over regulation cannot be blamed on the 'greenies' or the Democrats, or the lefties. Regulations increase under every administration. It is an organizational issue. Why does the U.S. spend twice as much as every other developed country on health care? You can't blame the greenies for that one - it has been going on for decades. We have to allow competition into the system - but then the bureaucrats would be out of a job. So we pay $87 for a bandage that the communists in England would buy for $7. Stop blaming the boogie man - and look at the whole picture.
NotParker
1 / 5 (9) Sep 29, 2012
solar power and wind power, thats the ticket to solving all of our problems, and if not, modern world be damned lets go back to the middle ages when people deforested the world because they did not yet think to mine peat, which ran out, and then to think of mining coal, and then oil and then.....

don't worry , the stoneages will be a great choice.

/sarc


They are converting coal power plants in the UK to burn wood.

http://sunshineho...-forest/
NotParker
1 / 5 (8) Sep 29, 2012
Basically, if you read the article, everywhere but Svalbard was warmer than today during the MWP.

And during the LIA, every place was colder than Svalbard.

Ok.


NP: You appear to have the attention span of a gnat. What happened to "it was the cyclone." That seemed to be your answer up until this article. Does that head of yours just keep spinning?


1) It was the cyclone. And the AMO.

All Time Record Antarctic Sea Ice Extent. (If I had a cult I would insist that it proves an ice age is here now)

http://sunshineho...in-2012/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Sep 29, 2012
dj:
"In the market for health care, we have bought into the same notion as other countries, that the way you make health care accessible is to make it free at the point of delivery. What we forget, when we do that, is that if you suppress prices, then all of the non-price barriers to care become increasingly important."
"In the United States, we — just like the Canadians and the British and people all over Europe — primarily pay for care with time and not money."
"food markets don't refuse people with foodstamps."
" fifty million people, mainly the same people, are also on medicaid. And what's the biggest problem you have there? Finding a doctor who will see you. Because we make it illegal for people on medicaid to add to the govenrment payment rate and pay the market price for care."
http://www.patheo...th-care/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 29, 2012
the overburden of regulation here in the heart of the free market center of the universe. Over regulation cannot be blamed on the 'greenies' or the Democrats, or the lefties.


It can be blamed on the 'progressives'. It started in earnest over 100 years ago when the federal govt created the FDA at the request of five major meat packers to control their competitors.
It continues today with Solyndra and when Enron promoted the Kyoto Treaty to corner the market in natural gas.
We saw it when Clinton attacked Microsoft at the request of Sun Micro-systems.
As for solar, we also have NIMBYs who won't allow people to install solar panels and use local zoning laws for such restrictions.
djr
4.9 / 5 (7) Sep 29, 2012
I read your article rygg - and I read your posts. My opinion is that you do not understand the core of the problem. I was recently talking with an employee at a medical practice. The Doctor who owns the practice made $3 million last year. He flies a corporate jet. He told his staff that the practice could not afford a pay raise this year - because of the burden of taxation. How can someone make $3 million? They can when they work in a field in which there is no competition - and guaranteed pricing. To blame 'progressives' makes no sense to me. The AMA wishes to maintain a lock grip on the system - so it's members reap the rewards. A friend just graduated from med school. Her father (a professor at the school) told her - "you have just joined an elite community, you will never want for anything again." He was right - she is now on staff at a hospital. Blaming 'progressives makes no sense - it is a system of privilege that protects it's membership.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 29, 2012
The AMA wishes to maintain a lock grip on the system - so it's members reap the rewards.

That IS the 'progressive' way started by Teddy Roosevelt over 100 years ago.

"One of the earliest reasons for the shift in fraternal priorities can be laid at the doorstep of the medical associations. As early as the 1910s, the profession, increasingly fortified by tighter certification requirements which reduced the supply of doctors, had launched an all-out war against fraternal medical services by imposing manifold sanctions, including denial of licenses against doctors who accepted these contracts. "
http://www.herita...re-state
But not all doctors are members of the AMA.
"In fact, the AMA now only counts about 17% of doctors as members."
"Just 13% of doctors agree with their trade association's support of the health reform law."
http://www.forbes...amacare/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 29, 2012
"Doctors pocket about $20 for each Medicaid patient they see. By contrast, an hour with a privately insured patient means payment of up to $260.

To compensate for lower government rates, doctors must increase their patient load. Every patient consequently spends less time with the doctor.

In some cases, doctors are responding to low reimbursements by refusing to see patients with public insurance. The American Academy of Family Physicians found that 13% of doctors did not partake in Medicare in 2009."
"The AMA claims that its top priority is helping doctors. Yet the organization has backed a law that would force some physicians to work longer hours for less pay "
http://www.forbes...acare/2/

"A Doctor Shortage and the Health Law"
http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Sep 29, 2012
she is now on staff at a hospital

So? What are the hours, the pay, the loans, and the malpractice insurance? If being a MD is such a good deal, why ....

"Will the best and the brightest continue to choose medicine as a career? Medical school admissions are down by 6% at a time when the Association of American Medical Colleges predicts a shortage of 160,000 by 2025. And the effective shortage of doctors who will work with Obamacare is far greater. Doctors who are already in practice will drop out of insurances, move to hospitals to work for a salary, or accept cash only. "
http://www.forbes...nt-care/
VendicarD
4.6 / 5 (9) Sep 29, 2012
You Conservatives really are cowardly chicken littles aren't you.

"warmer and no industry" - Hagger

"CO2 is the lowest it has ever been." - Hagger

The following image tells me that you are a liar.

http://zipcodezoo...de_2.gif

What does it tell you?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Sep 29, 2012
dj:
"Well, maybe not death panels, exactly, but unless we start allocating health care resources more prudently — rationing, by its proper name — the exploding cost of Medicare will swamp the federal budget. "
http://www.nytime...are.html

This is what the socialists want and why the must attack religion, so they can kill off the old folks without feeling too bad about it.

Of course any consideration of free market approaches are rejected out of hand. Only more govt control can provide any solution.
thermodynamics
3.9 / 5 (7) Sep 30, 2012
hagger: You said: "warmer and no industry..CO2 is the lowest it has ever been..it's getting warm because we are coming out of a cold cycle..but hey..raise our taxes reduce our movement, but the rich..business as usual."

Would you be so kind as to show us a reference that says that "CO2 is the lowest it has ever been."

This is a new idea to me. Instead, I look at web sites like:

http://en.wikiped...mosphere

And they show that CO2 continues to increase (as VD pointed out on a longer scale). Your comment is absolute nonsense. Please show us a web site that shows any support for your amazingly wrong comment. Thank you in advance.
djr
5 / 5 (6) Sep 30, 2012
"This is what the socialists want and why the must attack religion, so they can kill off the old folks without feeling too bad about it."

This is about as crazy a statement as you can throw at me. It demonstrates your black and white thinking. It is about the socialists vs the free marketers. You can't see the fundamental problem - which is that wealth and privilege protect themselves at all costs - and do everything they can to keep their wealth and privilege. Example - F-35 fighter jet. We do not need it - we already have the best fighter jets in the world - bar none. The F-35 is a $400 billion program, and each jet will cost $300 million. But of course the Pentagon is going to keep asking for more money, just as the pharmaceutical companies will keep asking for exclusive patents on their drugs (often developed by government programs), Senators will keep building bridges to nowhere, and the wind industry will beg for it's tax credits. cont.

djr
5 / 5 (8) Sep 30, 2012
Rygg - you see everything through an ideological lens. Then you see the world as A vs B. Communists vs free marketers - or what ever your choice of A and B is. Sunni vs Shia; Democrat vs Republican; christian vs moslem; Giants vs Jets; etc. Then you troll the information looking for data to support your pre-established position. Science is a different way of thinking. Just look at what is. Ideologues cannot conceive of free thought. No one wants to kill old people - that is just stupid. But it fits your narrative. A conservative said it - so you buy it. At a sermon recently - a right wing Lutheran preacher argued that in Holland old people were afraid to go to hospital - because they would be euthanized. I asked him for sources - some right wing Lutheran paper - that had no source documentation - it was total bullshit - but until you lose the shackles of ideology Rygg - you will not be able to think for yourself - just parrot the words of others.
thermodynamics
4.5 / 5 (8) Sep 30, 2012
Ryg: You said:

"This is what the socialists want and why the(y)sic must attack religion, so they can kill off the old folks without feeling too bad about it."

This is a science site. Please go back to you religeous sites and discuss philisophy of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin and how many angels will have to be killed to make room for the right ones. This article is about the temperatures in the arctic and you try to spin it into atheists murdering old people. Try to keep your grip on reality just long enough to go back to your religeous blog and leave us alone. I happen to be an old atheist and I swear I am not going to kill myself. :-)
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Sep 30, 2012
which is that wealth and privilege protect themselves at all costs

So your solution answer is to destroy wealth?

This is a science site.

"Isn't the stone age the state that Republicans want America to return to."
T, I didn't start jumping in to politics. Your fellow travellers did.
Since when has this been a science site? The AGWites only promote political, not science based alternatives.

No one wants to kill old people

That's not what the socialists say who support govt run health care. From a 'liberal' source:
"Well, maybe not death panels, exactly, but unless we start allocating health care resources more prudently — rationing, by its proper name — the exploding cost of Medicare will swamp the federal budget. " http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0

djr
5 / 5 (4) Sep 30, 2012
"So your solution answer is to destroy wealth?" My solution is pretty irrelevant - being that I have zero power to change this issue. I would like to see the introduction of market based competition in the system - that I would see driving down the cost of health care. I think that in time this will happen - but the entrenched interests will not go out easily. Your quote from the New York times in now way supports the idea that any one wants to kill old people - it is a stupid suggestion - not supported by your quote. In countries where euthanasia is practiced (Holland for example) - studies have shown that the system errs heavily on the side of NOT giving permission to the individual asking to be allowed to die. Of course reality is that if I want to die - you can't stop me. But in my opinion it is humane to avail a person of a painless and dignified way to die if that is what they choose.
djr
5 / 5 (5) Sep 30, 2012
"I happen to be an old atheist and I swear I am not going to kill myself. :-)" I am a relatively new atheist Thermo - and like you - I tire of the religious brain dead always wanting to hijack the science sites. I think they are terrified of the world changing. They will of course have to get over it. Marx talked of creeping socialism - and he was wrong. I think that creeping atheism is a more valid construct - and eventually we will see a religion free world. Sadly I will probably not still be here.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Sep 30, 2012
"NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday."

http://www.dailym...ear.html

Maybe they don't really WANT to murder old people but what choice do they have?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Sep 30, 2012
religious brain dead always wanting to hijack the science sites.

Trouble is the atheists won't accept the limits of science and use science to attack religion.

"Though the sciences might be able to explain the chemical make-up of pages and ink, they will never be able to reveal the meaning of a book; and though they might make sense of the biology of the human body, they will never tell us why a human act is moral or immoral; and though they might disclose the cellular structure of oil and canvas, they will never determine why a painting is beautiful."
"this is not because "science" is for the moment insufficiently developed, it is because the scientific method cannot, even in principle, explore such matters, "
http://www.realcl...god.html
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Sep 30, 2012
and eventually we will see a religion free world. Sadly I will probably not still be here

Had you lived in a religion free state, like USSR, would you have survived?
Lenin stated that the communist MUST be atheist.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (10) Sep 30, 2012
dj:
"people of many different faiths and levels of scientific expertise see no contradiction at all between science and religion. Many simply acknowledge that the two institutions deal with different realms of human experience. "
http://undsci.ber...religion

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
Max Planck
We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.
Read more at http://www.brainy...E3zi1.99

In case you don't know, Max Planck is called the father of quantum mechanics.
rubberman
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 30, 2012
"Though the sciences might be able to explain the chemical make-up of pages and ink, they will never be able to reveal the meaning of a book; and though they might make sense of the biology of the human body, they will never tell us why a human act is moral or immoral; and though they might disclose the cellular structure of oil and canvas, they will never determine why a painting is beautiful." "this is not because "science" is for the moment insufficiently developed, it is because the scientific method cannot, even in principle, explore such matters, "

The book doesn't exist without the paper and the ink. The painting doesn't exist without the oil and the canvas...etc. Science and nature provided the means to create these things, everything after is human creativity. Morality is too conveniently shrugged off when it gets in the way of desire, it's human nature. Scientific observations tell us the earth is changing and why, what we do about it shows our nature.

VendicarD
4.5 / 5 (8) Sep 30, 2012
One is being converted.

"They are converting coal power plants in the UK to burn wood." - ParkerTard

You claim more than one. What are their names and where are they?
VendicarD
4.4 / 5 (7) Sep 30, 2012
"It was the cyclone. And the AMO" - ParkerTard

Odd, on your nonsense BLOG, you procliam that the world is warming because of an increase in sunshine hours. - An assertion for which there is negative evidence.

Now you claim it is the wind.

Make up your mind, Tard Boy.
VendicarD
4 / 5 (9) Sep 30, 2012
Three words for the ultimate Moron....

"Had you lived in a religion free state, like USSR..."

Russian Orthodox Church.
djr
5 / 5 (7) Sep 30, 2012
"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature" To continue this discussion we would really have to clarify what we are talking about when we use the terms 'science', and 'religion' To predict into the future what science will or will not be able to solve is hubris. What will the state of science be 100 million years from now? I believe that science and religion are not compatible - as evidenced by the studies that show that scientists are more likely to be atheist - than non scientists. To try to equate atheists with communism - shows how unable you are to think scientifically. Hitler was a Catholic - should we then equate Catholics with genocide? The hope I have for the future of the human race - is the polls showing that atheism is on the rise, and religion on the decline - nuf said for me.
VendicarD
3.8 / 5 (11) Sep 30, 2012
From RyggTard's own source...

A Department of Health spokesman said: 'The Liverpool Care Pathway is not euthanasia and we do not recognise these figures. The pathway is recommended by NICE and has overwhelming support from clinicians – at home and abroad – including the Royal College of Physicians.

"Maybe they don't really WANT to murder old people but what choice do they have?" - RyggTard

RyggTard is the ultimate idiot.
JoeBlue
1.7 / 5 (11) Sep 30, 2012
Yes, because using Ad-Homs certainly proves your point.

NotParker
1.3 / 5 (14) Sep 30, 2012
Sunshine

"The effect of CO2 doubling is supposed to be 3.7W/m^2. In this table, changes in sunshine from 1981 to 2011 produce 5.59W/m^2 in December to 15.25W/m^2 in April."

http://sunshineho...e-1980s/

3 units

http://www.bloomb...rgy.html
VendicarD
3.9 / 5 (11) Sep 30, 2012
ParkerTard's own image of "sunshine hours" shows no change since 1930, but he is convinced that it is causing the globe to warm.

Oh wait. Last year he was claiming that the world had been cooling for the last decade.

Perhaps his graph of no change in sunshine hours over Switzerland will also explain why the ice caps are melting why ocean levels are rising and why Alaska is cooling?

He is mentally diseased of course.

Lex Talonis
2.8 / 5 (9) Oct 01, 2012
This is quite good.

David Suzuki: An elder's vision for our sustainable future

https://www.youtu...7SpLpN5A
Jitterbewegung
1 / 5 (7) Oct 01, 2012
CO2 is only a greenhouse gas in the lower atmosphere and becomes a reflector of the Sun's rays higher up.
Why not pump the CO2 into the higher part of our atmosphere above the arctic to cool the planet down a bit?
NotParker
1 / 5 (8) Oct 01, 2012
ParkerTard's own image of "sunshine hours" shows no change since 1930,


Actually, thats a graph of changes. So every point above or below 0 is a change.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Oct 01, 2012
What will the state of science be 100 million years from now?

If you are an AGWite, humans won't be conducting any science as they will have died out long before that.
BTW, please scientifically describe beauty.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Oct 01, 2012
Science and nature provided the means to create these things, everything after is human creativity.

But why create?
And why create that particular work of art and why is it called 'art'?
Why are Shakespeare words considered so valuable?
How does science objectively determine the value of Shakespeare's words to Marx?
djr
5 / 5 (6) Oct 01, 2012
"BTW, please scientifically describe beauty." Why? What do you think you have proven by asking me that? Do you think I don't understand that humans are subjective beings - that can appreciate a very esoteric concept such as beauty? Can a machine appreciate beauty? That is a question being asked by the AI community as we speak. I have no idea if there is any kind of consensus in terms of an answer. My view (for what it is worth) - is that beauty is a construct that can be programmed in to a machine - and that machine can appreciate a beautiful sunset. We are currently at the level of programming machines to understand a concept of self - so we have a long way to go. The point still stands - it is hubris to think we have any idea of what the state of science will be 100 million years from now. Your comments about AGW are childish, being concerned about something - does not equate to thinking we are all going to die - grow up....
djr
5 / 5 (6) Oct 01, 2012
"But why create?" Because it is fun. Machines can have fun too - watch a good sci fi movie.
runrig
5 / 5 (7) Oct 01, 2012
ParkerTard's own image of "sunshine hours" shows no change since 1930,


Actually, thats a graph of changes. So every point above or below 0 is a change.


If you would like to supply similar data for world coverage including oceans, rather than for just a tiny country - then you may have a credible point. Since you cant - then you don't. Also, more sunshine in winter would not give higher surface temperatures as it would logically ( given the corollary of less cloud ) lead to greater radiation to space overnight than was received by day.
NotParker
1 / 5 (6) Oct 01, 2012
ParkerTard's own image of "sunshine hours" shows no change since 1930,


Actually, thats a graph of changes. So every point above or below 0 is a change.


If you would like to supply similar data ...


I was waiting for your sides proof that sunshine was identical.

However, Martin Wild has written many papers.

"There is increasing evidence that the amount of solar radiation incident at the Earth's surface is not stable over the years but undergoes significant decadal variations. Here I review the evidence for these changes, their magnitude, their possible causes, their representation in climate models, and their potential implications for climate change. The various studies analyzing long-term records of surface radiation measurements suggest a widespread decrease in surface solar radiation between the 1950s and 1980s ("global dimming"), with a partial recovery more recently at many locations ("brightening") ... "
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) Oct 01, 2012
it is hubris to think we have any idea of what the state of science will be 100 million years from now.


Or that Jesus won't return by then as predicted.

machine can appreciate a beautiful sunset.

You are assuming an objective way of defining beauty.
I know metrics have been applied to what some people today describe as a pretty face. What is 'pretty'? What a majority today say it is? We have seen such definitions change over time in artwork. Why did they change?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) Oct 01, 2012
Here is a default definition for beauty:

"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it."
Confucius
VendicarD
4.3 / 5 (6) Oct 01, 2012
"Actually, thats a graph of changes." - ParkerTard

Which averages to zero.

ParkerTard's own image of "sunshine hours" shows no change since 1930, but he is convinced that it is causing the globe to warm.

Oh wait. Last year he was claiming that the world had been cooling for the last decade.

Perhaps his graph of no change in sunshine hours over Switzerland will also explain why the ice caps are melting why ocean levels are rising and why Alaska is cooling?

He is mentally diseased of course.
Meyer
1.8 / 5 (5) Oct 01, 2012
"Actually, thats a graph of changes." - ParkerTard

Which averages to zero.

ParkerTard's own image of "sunshine hours" shows no change since 1930, but he is convinced that it is causing the globe to warm.

Temperature anomaly since 1930 also amounts to basically zero.

Edit: I'll correct myself before you do. I had the US temperatures in mind.
NotParker
1.7 / 5 (12) Oct 01, 2012
"Actually, thats a graph of changes." - ParkerTard

Which averages to zero.



"Changes in sunshine from 1981 to 2011 produce 5.59W/m^2 in December to 15.25W/m^2 in April."

A doubling of CO2 (which has not occurred yet) supposedly will only produce 3.7W/m^2.

Changes in sunshine average are 3x as big.

tarheelchief
1.4 / 5 (5) Oct 04, 2012
The earth warms up and cools down.After the previous warm up of 1800 years ago,how do the strata reflect the changes which came about next?
Many theorists have arrived at something quite common yet unpredictable,sun spots.
In any case,the polar land animals,migratory fish, and migratory birds will adapt or become extinct. If we assume the carbon based electrical and transport industries remain the culprits,action should be taken like nuclear power,or renewable sources of power should be pursued.
Unfortunately,the invisible hand of Adam Smith tends toward a scattershot approach with money.This assumes incorrectly that one solution might be far cheaper than others.This may be true in the short run,but most experts would acknowledge several cultures survived without drastic changes.
In our post-imperial world we can see several societies which took steps to survive.
VendicarD
3.2 / 5 (5) Oct 04, 2012
Ahahahahah... Tard Boy is quoting from his own Denialist BLOG as if it has some authority?

"Changes in sunshine from 1981 to 2011" - ParkerTard

He is mentally diseased.

Multiple personality disorders.
NotParker
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 04, 2012
Ahahahahah... Tard Boy is quoting from his own Denialist BLOG as if it has some authority?


No. People who can read realize the quotes were from the peer reviewed paper.

Those interested in science realize their are cycles like the AMO, NAO, PDO and ENSO.

Well, there are also cycles to solar surface radiation (the sunshine that makes it to the ground without being reflected by clouds or aerosols).

Global dimming and brightening are quite common terms.
VendicarD
3.1 / 5 (7) Oct 05, 2012
You provided no source. Just the quote, without attribution. Which is a quote from your own nonsense blog.

"No. People who can read realize the quotes were from the peer reviewed paper." - ParkerTard

You are mentally ill. You need to see a psychiatrist.

"Global dimming and brightening are quite common terms." - ParkerTard

Solar output has been constantly monitored for over 100 years. No substantive change has been observed.

Like Martians and the Moon Beams that put those voices in your head... It's all just your diseased imagination.
NotParker
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 05, 2012
You provided no source.


The blog article has tables of data and graphs from the paper and a link to the paper.

http://sunshineho...e-1980s/

Pretending you are too stupid to read is not a refutation of inconvenient science that contradicts your cult.
VendicarD
3.8 / 5 (4) Oct 05, 2012
In other words your denial that you were not quoting fom your own blog was a lie on your part.

"The blog article has tables of data and graphs from the paper and a link to the paper." - ParkerTard

Of course it was a lie. Thank you for admitting it.

Now we have to ask why you are lying by dishonestly taking a quote concerning Switzerland and claiming that the author was speaking globally.

Poor ParkerTard. Caught telling two more lies.

Do you ever intend to stop lying?

NotParker
1 / 5 (5) Oct 05, 2012
The blog article has tables of data and graphs from the paper and a link to the paper.

http://sunshineho...e-1980s/

The blog posts quotes from the data table which reproduced in the blog posting.

Honest people understood that the blog author was quoting from a peer reviewed papers data table.
VendicarD
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 05, 2012
Poor ParkerTard. The paper that his own nonsense blog refers to is not a paper about a global change in sunshine hours, but simply a fluctuation in such seen over the tiny country of Switzerland.

Hmmm lets see. The Earth has an area of 510 million square kilometers and Switzerland an area of 41,000 square kilometers.

So the surface area of Switzerland is .008 percent the surface area of the earth.

Poor ParkerTard. He spends every waking hour of every day either posting nonsense to his blog, posting here or in other newsgroups.

"The blog article has tables of data and graphs from the paper and a link to the paper." - ParkerTard

When does he find the time to actually go to work?

Oh wait. Posting Carbon Industry Propaganda and lies is his work....

Filth....
VendicarD
3.3 / 5 (3) Oct 05, 2012
What's wrong UbVonTard?

Cat got your lying tongue?
NotParker
1 / 5 (6) Oct 05, 2012
Poor ParkerTard. The paper that his own nonsense blog refers to is not a paper about a global change in sunshine hours, but simply a fluctuation in such seen over the tiny country of Switzerland.


Sane people will realize that cleaner air over Switzerland means clean air over most of western Europe.

The Netherlands also has cleaner air and more sunshine.

The UK has more sunshine too.

http://sunshineho...erlands/

Deranged fanatics ignore science.
VendicarD
5 / 5 (2) Oct 05, 2012
Sane people will recognize the phrase "Swiss Alps" and know that Switzerland corresponds to 0.008 percent of the earth's surface.

Poor ParkerTard. He spends all of his waking hours looking for evidence that he can use to support his Carbon Industry pay masters, and this kind of nonsense is all he can find.

He should rename his nonsense blog to "CoalIndustryPropaganda", because that is exactly wheat he is paid to produce.

NotParker
1 / 5 (5) Oct 06, 2012
Sane people will recognize the phrase "Swiss Alps" and know that Switzerland corresponds to 0.008 percent of the earth's surface.


We were discussing the air above Switzerland which comes from all over Europe and the how much cleaner it is leading to more sunshine reaching the earth which has energy.

VendicarD
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 06, 2012
"We were discussing the air above Switzerland" - ParkerTard

"The climate in Switzerland is strongly influenced by the Alps extending across the country and representing the most important meteorological divide in Central Europe.

Thanks to the Alps, large climatic differences in Switzerland are to be found within a small geographic area.

The largest contrasts exist between the northern side of the Alps with its temperature climate and the southern side of the Alps characterized by Mediterranean climate." -
http://www.meteoc...her.html

ParkerTard has now had both of his arms and legs and a good portion of his torso cut of.

But like a good Carbon Industry Shill, he insists that it is only a flesh wound.

He is mentally ill.
NotParker
1 / 5 (3) Oct 06, 2012
"We were discussing the air above Switzerland" - ParkerTard

"The climate in Switzerland is strongly influenced by the Alps


Its the same air higher up too. VD is not to bright in his whining mode (all the time).