Big cash stockpile puts US tech firms on the spot

Aug 02, 2012 by Rob Lever
Apple's logo sign hangs in an Apple shop in Shanghai in April. The company has more than $81 billion parked overseas.

Apple has more than $81 billion parked overseas. Microsoft has $54 billion, Google $43 billion and Cisco $42 billion.

Being flush with cash is a good thing, but it also poses a public relations problem for US technology giants amid an election year debate about economic patriotism.

Some say the shifting of profits overseas is a huge tax avoidance scheme, and that loopholes should be closed.

Others say the situation calls for a "" to encourage firms to repatriate funds and invest in the US economy.

The cash stockpile is not only a tech phenomenon. Various estimates say more than $1 trillion in US corporate cash is now held overseas.

But the most prominent and fastest-growing cash piles come from those tech firms that can easily use transfers among foreign subsidiaries to keep US tax liabilities low.

"Any company with intellectual property, whether it is software or how to make a drug, has the opportunity to assign the ownership to a foreign subsidiary in a tax haven," said Robert McIntyre, director of the activist group Citizens for Tax Justice.

In examining Apple, McIntyre said, "what you discover is that essentially all of the money it has offshore has never been taxed by anyone."

A July report by Moody's Investors Service said 22 US-based technology companies had $289 billion, 70 percent of their total cash, overseas at the end of March and forecast this would grow to $400 billion within three years.

Moody's said companies are reluctant to bring these funds back to US soil where they would be taxed, possibly at the top corporate rate of 35 percent.

Under US law, companies get a deferral of these taxes until the money is repatriated.

Until recently, some major companies had been lobbying for a new "tax holiday" to allow repatriation at a reduced rate, similar to a 2004 effort which allowed firms a tax rate of just 5.25 percent.

Microsoft and Cisco, along with other multinationals such as pharmaceutical giant joined an effort last year, saying it could create some 2.9 million jobs.

The group called WinAmerica suspended its effort as the US presidential election ramped up.

But a WinAmerica spokesman said the group "is committed to working with Congress and the administration after the election to reform the tax code and inject nearly a trillion dollars into the US economy."

Earlier this year, Apple chief financial officer Peter Oppenheimer expressed a similar view, saying, "repatriating the cash from offshore would result in significant tax consequences under current US law."

"We have expressed our views with Congress and the administration. We think that the current tax laws provide a considerable economic disincentive to US companies that might otherwise repatriate the substantial amount of foreign cash that they have," Oppenheimer said.

The Obama administration has opposed a tax holiday, saying the 2004 effort failed to deliver on its promise.

Former assistant treasury secretary Michael Mundaca said last year of the 2004 tax holiday: "Unfortunately, there is no evidence that it increased US investment or jobs, and it cost taxpayers billions."

Presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney has proposed replacing the US system of "worldwide" taxation with a "territorial" system, meaning profits would be taxed only in the jurisdictions earned.

A Romney campaign statement says the current rules "encourage American multinational companies to park their profits permanently overseas."

But Seth Hanlon of the Center for American Progress said the Romney tax plan would "enhance the tax code's rewards for moving jobs and investments overseas" and "provide a gratuitous windfall" to some firms while cutting US tax receipts.

Apple has been a particular target of those seeking new revenues.

An analysis by Citizens for Tax Justice found that if worldwide profits are included, Apple's effective tax rate in the US is around 12 to 14 percent in the period from 2006 to 2011 instead of the 31 percent in company documents.

McIntyre said the only effective way to bring up the rate would be a worldwide tax system without loopholes like deferral, which he said costs the US some $600 billion over 10 years.

Jacob Frenkel, a Maryland attorney who specializes in corporate governance, said the effort by Apple and others to keep taxes low in not just fully legal, but also in line with their fiduciary duties.

"Their primary obligation is to their shareholders and to do what is in the best interest of the company," Frenkel said.

Additionally, Frenkel said that "more and more American corporations are finding the US regulatory structure to be so burdensome that they almost regret they are US-based corporations."

Christopher Bergin, a tax lawyer who publishes a series of newsletters on fiscal matters, said blaming companies like Apple misses the point.

"The problem is not Apple, the problem is the US Congress," Bergin told AFP. "The corporate tax system is broken."

Bergin said that the US tax code for business is so full of loopholes, big firms employ armies of lawyers and experts to determine how to legally reduce taxes.

Some of these loopholes have exotic-sounding names like a "Double Irish" or "Dutch Sandwich," which refer to specific techniques to transfer among subsidiaries to lower taxes.

"There is nothing wrong with Apple taking advantage of the tax rules as written," Bergin said. "As far as unfair, it's the tax code.

"So simplify the tax code, eliminate the loopholes. Maybe it is time to eliminate the corporate tax code and replace it with something else."

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CapitalismPrevails
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 02, 2012
"So simplify the tax code, eliminate the loopholes. Maybe it is time to eliminate the corporate tax code and replace it with something else." Amen. And instead of spending so much money on accountants and lawyers defend against government harassment, they would spend more money on their product or service. And while were at it, lets eliminate the international corporate double taxation. http://www.forbes...profits/
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (11) Aug 02, 2012
"economic patriotism."
Another term for socialism.
Whose cash is it? If you believe it to be yours or the govt's, then proceed to formally and above board confiscate it. Have the courage of your convictions.
But then don't cry when the govt confiscates your property.

Corporate cash would be invested, creating more profits and employment, IF the govt stopped attacking free enterprise and promoting socialism.
Jotaf
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 02, 2012
It's true that the system is broken, and it's like this in every western country. But the solution to the fact that they don't pay their taxes (unlike Average Joe, the usual schmuck who *gasp* plays by the rules) cannot be less taxation.

Think about it -- it will start a "race to the bottom" where every country will offer lower and lower taxes until it's effectively 0 for corporations!
CapitalismPrevails
2.7 / 5 (7) Aug 02, 2012
Think about it -- it will start a "race to the bottom" where every country will offer lower and lower taxes until it's effectively 0 for corporations!


It's not a slippery slope. But why not have a 0% income tax? The government always makes sure to spend more than it takes in anyway. That's part of the reason why the income tax was originally unconstitutional. Because higher taxes ARE a slippery slope. Particularly when you have central bank to facilitate the environment for it.
But of course you will need some tax revenue. At some point your going to notice the 0% offers no tax revenue for the court system, police forces, congress, executive branch, and police forces. At that point your will have anarchy like in Somalia. The founders started the country off with tariffs and consumption taxes. I say lets have 10% flat rate federal consumption tax across the board and let the federalism of the states decide their own taxes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (23) Aug 02, 2012
Hey ryggy I thought this was you:

"Stephen Moore: The Man Who Saved Capitalism
Milton Friedman, who would have turned 100 on Tuesday, helped to make free markets popular again in the 20th century. His ideas are even more important today."
http://online.wsj...news_wsj
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (11) Aug 02, 2012
Jo, corporations NEVER pay tax. Their customers DO or the corporation is out of business.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (7) Aug 02, 2012
Which of course gives the wealthy a 0 percent tax rate since capital gains taxes (Taxes on investments) will be Zero.

"The founders started the country off with tariffs and consumption taxes. I say lets have 10% flat rate federal consumption tax. - CapitalismFails
Vendicar_Decarian
3.8 / 5 (8) Aug 02, 2012
RyggTard has it all backwards of course.

Individuals NEVER pay tax. Their employers do. Individuals just pass the tax along to the corporation in the form of demands for higher wages.

"corporations NEVER pay tax. Their customers DO" - RyggTard
freethinking
2.8 / 5 (10) Aug 02, 2012
My company just had a state tax audit. The State auditor took almost 8 weeks to research if we were paying the right taxes. When it takes 8 weeks for the state expert to determine if the taxes we were paying was correct, there is something wrong. After spending over 160 hrs of billable hrs preparing for the audit, the auditor spent 320 hrs, net result we owed the state around $100 because we were filing incorrectly. So we spent $9600.00, the governement spent $32,000, so that the governement could get $100. Which they would have gotten, because we are honest, IF THE STUPID TAX CODE was simple.
freethinking
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 02, 2012
Add to that, I'm just launching another business very soon. It has taken me longer to go through stupid regulation requirement, than it has for me to develop, source materials, patent, the device.

IF this works, I could be employing up to 20 additional employees. BUT BECAUSE of Progressives and their love of regulations, we are being delayed.

Since Progressive Obama want to take credit for successful businesses, if this project fails, Can I blame Obama?
Vendicar_Decarian
3.8 / 5 (5) Aug 02, 2012
I agree. Therefore Republicans plan a flat tax that exempts the rich from capital gains taxation and thefore gives them an effective tax rate of 0 percent.

"When it takes 8 weeks for the state expert to determine if the taxes we were paying was correct, there is something wrong." - FreeTard

If Republicans were interested in simplifying the tax code they would have done it under George Bush Jr. rather than trying to simply exempt the wealthiest 1% of Americans and the very poor from taxation and heap the bulk of the burden onto the middle class and future generations.

40 years of Borrow and Spend Republicanism has bankrupted America.
Vendicar_Decarian
4.2 / 5 (6) Aug 02, 2012
Will you thank him for the patent protection, police protection, fire protection, riot protection, and the streets and roads you transport materials upon should you succeed?

Will you thank him for preventing America from falling into a 2 or 3 decades long economic depression created by George Bush, and the failed Libertarian/Randite ideology of Alan Greenspan?

Clearly you don't now.

http://www.youtub...PI6no5ng

"Since Progressive Obama want to take credit for successful businesses, if this project fails, Can I blame Obama?" - FreeThinking
ryggesogn2
2.4 / 5 (10) Aug 02, 2012
How much money are all the millionaire and billionaire democrats sitting on?

Soros, Irwin Jacobs, Jon Stryker, Haim Saban,
Kerry: Net worth $193 million.
Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va.: Net worth $82 million
Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va.: Net worth $76 million
Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo.: Net worth $66 million
Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J.: Net worth $55 million
Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn.: Net worth $55 million
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.: Net worth $45 million

FDR inherited his wealth that was obtained by his grandfather's opium running in China.
Joe Kennedy got rich on insider trading and running booze.

Why do so many democrats attack those who want to create wealth? If these rich democrats don't want to be rich any more they can certainly donate their wealth to the govt or any other charity.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (6) Aug 02, 2012
That adds up to less than a billion bucks RyggTard.

Meanwhile Wealthy Americans have already offshored 33 trillion dollars according to recent analysis.

"How much money are all the millionaire and billionaire democrats sitting on?" - RyggTard

And one of those hiding his money overseas is Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney.

http://www.youtub...gfWK3sxw
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (5) Aug 02, 2012
Can you explain this video RyggTard?

http://www.youtub...=related

It was produced by your hero Ron Paul.
Jotaf
1 / 5 (2) Aug 02, 2012
Politicians on both sides are rich hypocrites who hide their money offshore. There's no point in saying that only Republican or Democrat representatives are privileged fatcats -- they both are.

I think different distributions of taxes are worth investigating. CapitalismPrevails suggested no taxes on corporations and a flat tax on consumption. For retail-based industries, it *could* amount to the same tax as today -- it all comes from the consumers' pockets anyway -- but make corporate tax evasion unnecessary.

That's worth thinking about IMO; but still has loopholes. The finance industry's transactions would need to be taxed as well; it's the closest equivalent to "consumption" in that business. Same for services, but that should be straightforward. Would this be totally insane or work just right?
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (4) Aug 03, 2012
We know that Presidential candidate Ronmey has tens of millions - perhaps hundreds of millions - in his off shore accounts.

And he refuses to submit his tax returns for public view.

We also know that the current president has no such accounts.

"Politicians on both sides are rich hypocrites who hide their money offshore." - Jotaf

The parties are significantly different.

The Republicans are corrupt to their core.

The Democrats simply have a few bad actors.

Claiming the two are equivalent is like claiming that Black and off white are the same color.

Only the blind or the terminally stupid make such claims.
obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (12) Aug 03, 2012
You forgot Democrat Senator Nancy Pelosi's wealth.
A U.S. tax rate of 35 cents on the dollar is quite steep. That money, if repatriated into the U.S. economy, shouldn't be taxed at all in the first year, but should be used for hiring the talented and skilled Americans who are presently unemployed. In the second year of return, the tax rate should be as low as possible for the hiring process to continue. Certain regulations on these businesses should also be eased so that the U.S. is less of a hostile environment to start and maintain businesses, whether old or new or have come home from overseas.
A hostile business environment that is over-taxed and over-regulated, plus unreasonable union demands is just as bad as a hostile workers' environment. Both negate the absolutely essential and fundamental recipe for success.
obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (12) Aug 03, 2012
Too many people forget that being hired for a job is not a "right"; they are hired because they offer to provide a service for money. And too many big corporations such as General Motors forget that if they don't deliver the best product possible, customers will take their money elsewhere. Car engines catching fire does not make for a successful business. And a government that is not run like a business is doomed to fail in many ways. Government has a product to sell, and the taxpayers are the buyers of that product. The product is a well-run and efficient "department store" of services. Those are the services that a country cannot do without. If the product is less than optimum, the people will "hire" new people who are "service-oriented" and who will do a better job. Obama has done much less than optimum service and Romney offers to provide a better service. Obama seems to be anti-business in the private sector while Romney was a co-founder of Bain Capital and understands business.
Caliban
4.3 / 5 (6) Aug 03, 2012

"...while Romney was a co-founder of Bain Capital and understands business."


That's right --rape the workers and leave them for dead.

Don't forget to strip the business itself of every asset, first. Transfer all that cash to your "investors", take advantage of every one of the multitude of tax credits and deductions available throughout the process(but only for the buyers -natch), and then turn every one out onto the street to be supported by taxpayers, because there aren't any equivalent jobs left in the community.

Yeah -Romney knows "business" allright.

You'd better pray that Bain Capital or some similar monstrosity doesn't decide to "do" business with YOUR employer, o s.

obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (13) Aug 03, 2012
Actually, Romney started out with Bain & Co. which had Bill Bain as the CEO. The co. was highly ethical and had a policy of concentrating on only one customer at a time within any field of business. Then Romney and a few others co-founded Bain Capital which was not connected with Bain & Co. and Romney et al did very nicely on their own, also highly ethical. But Bain & Co. had a problem that they couldn't solve and there was a lot of friction among the partners. So Romney was called in to turn the co. around, and he did it within about a year. Whatever money Romney got out of it, he earned fair and square. Bain Capital was run very efficiently and they never had to lay anyone off that worked for them. These are important things to know about this man. He wasn't wishy washy like Obama. Nor was he indecisive. He ran a good and honest businessthat was profitable and well liked. Romney's got my vote b/c I trust him. He's got good character references, but a lot of lies are told about him.
obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (13) Aug 03, 2012
Romney isn't into cronyism and he would run the gov't like a well run business. That's what this country needs to improve the economy and get genuine jobs for Americans.
All Obama did was to say that he "made" jobs, but those jobs were gov't jobs, not the private sector. The main thing is to turn the economy around. When people are working again, they'll be paying taxes. Right now they're not and some have even stopped looking for work.The less people there are working, the better for Obama. That way he can promise them this and that, but will fail to deliver. Obama hates the private sector and wants to control every aspect of business. That's why he likes more and more regulations over and above what's necessary. With that attitude and policy, he will destroy the U.S. within the next 4 years b/c a lot of people are stupid and buy his lies. Obama never worked a day in his life and he's dishonest. We can't even see his grades from college. He acts like a rich playboy and insults people.
obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (13) Aug 03, 2012
Bain & Co is a consulting firm. Bain Capital is an investment company. Big difference.
Eisenhower was a good President, but he ran the country as a former soldier, which is why he warned about the military/industrial complex...b/c he understood that the military buys from industry and supports those industries that make military products.
But Ike was NOT anti-industry. They provide jobs, after all. So his warning didn't really make much sense. He wasn't business-oriented or familiar with making money for investors and providing jobs for staff and delivering product to customers. Romney is aware that the customer is everything. Take away the customer and you have nothing. These are reasonable things to consider when deciding which one to vote for. Obama is lost when it comes to running the country in an efficient and professional manner. He is very unprofessional and has made too many gaffes, and now he might get us into another war, but this time with Russia over Iran to save Israel.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (21) Aug 03, 2012
Pirouette/Ritchieguy/russkiye/pussy/dumfuk the lying flooding imbecile chooses to dump another empty load in a physorg thread. Streaming her unconscious she says
He acts like a rich playboy and insults people.
Well you act like this is a chatroom which also insults the people here. What's the difference? Just because something pops into your mind doesn't mean it's worth dropping here does it? Obama wouldn't do that sort of thing. He has consideration for others and also has the common sense not to say incredibly inane things in public. Like
he might get us into another war, but this time with Russia over Iran to save Israel.
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (7) Aug 03, 2012
VD, it took 8 weeks because the regulations are so complex. I asked him how is a small business who wants to follow the rules should proceed. All he could do is shrug his shoulders.

We had two audits this year. The other audit was Occupational Health and Safety. That audit took 150 billable hrs out of our time, took only 80 hrs of government time. Net result, we passed with flying colors. I asked this government specialist, how I can use my facility for the new business and keep it legal. This government EXPERT said he would need to check it out. It took him a week to figure it out. This auditor was a nice guy and discussed how his department destroyed several businesses for making small mistakes.

Wonder why unemployment is so high, ONE MAJOR REASON is PROGRESSIVES and their love of REGULATIONS is driving small businesses out of business. THEN OBAMA HAS THE GALL TO SAY WE OWE OUR SUCCESS TO GOVERNMENT!
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (20) Aug 03, 2012
I asked this government specialist, how I can use my facility for the new business and keep it legal.
Actually ft it sounds like you were trying to get free advice you should have been paying for. An architect should be telling you how your facilities Can be used in compliance with codes and ordinances.

This story reminds me of Christ in the temple:

"Although the formal charge against the young women [Pussy Riot punk band] is hooliganism punishable by up to seven years in prison because they acted as a group they have been accused in court of Satanism, inciting religious hatred and causing moral harm to at least 10 churchgoers. They spit into my soul and into the soul of my God, Tatyana Anosova, who SELLS CANDLES at the cathedral, testified this week. My soul still hurts, but I cannot show my soul."

-Maybe because it doesnt exist?

Protesting religion might get them 7 years in prison. But at least they won't be nailed to a cross. This time.
freethinking
2.8 / 5 (8) Aug 03, 2012
Otto, I pay for the facility, I wanted to divide up the space, one part does one thing another part does another. BUT to be legal it needs to be done so and so. BUT here is the rub, how much do I spend on regulations on a high risk venture, when there might be a negative return? Not being a large business that can suck governement money... How can I find out? Regulations should be simple.... There was another business venture, very low return on investment, maybe only employ only 1 person, I couldn't due because regulation overhead would cost more than I could make
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (10) Aug 03, 2012
In the early 90s a small ethnic grocer moved to a new store and had to rework the restroom several times to meet the regulations that kept changing based upon the inspector.
Guess he forgot to bribe the inspector.
obama_socks
2 / 5 (12) Aug 03, 2012
@Ryg
Legitimate inspectors don't have to be bribed, but there are those who look for a little extra cash to give a passing grade. It's too bad that happens. Best thing to do is to call up his supervisor and let him know that you've been coerced and to send out a different inspector. Usually, those businesses keep their clients by "word of mouth" and want to keep their clients as long as possible. Another thing to do is to get a written statement and maybe a blueprint with exact dimensions and material. If it's not in writing, you can't take the inspector and his boss to court for bribery or anything else.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (5) Aug 04, 2012
RyggTard forgot to include the words "Once Upon A Time" in his fairy story.

"In the early 90s a small ethnic grocer moved to a new store and had to rework the restroom several times to meet the regulations that kept changing based upon the inspector." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (6) Aug 04, 2012
Tard Boy... Without the Russian Government, the American Government, the British Government, the Canadian Government, the Australian Government you would be speaking German right now.

"Wonder why unemployment is so high, ONE MAJOR REASON is PROGRESSIVES and their love of REGULATIONS is driving small businesses out of business. THEN OBAMA HAS THE GALL TO SAY WE OWE OUR SUCCESS TO GOVERNMENT!" - FreeTard

Do you intend to remain an idiot for the rest of your life?
freethinking
2.5 / 5 (8) Aug 04, 2012
VD, why do you and other progressives hate people with jobs? Why do you hate job creators? Why do you approve of job preventing regulations?
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (9) Aug 04, 2012
VD, why do you and other progressives hate people with jobs? Why do you hate job creators? Why do you approve of job preventing regulations?

Because they hate themselves.
Golda Meir said the Palestinians will stop terrorism when they love their children, life, more than hating the Jews and life.
Maybe that's why the 'progressives' support the Palestinian and Arab terrorists. They all prefer death over life.
It's easier for the 'progressives' to destroy', to plunder than to create and build.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, or won't, destroy those who can.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (19) Aug 04, 2012
Otto, I pay for the facility, I wanted to divide up the space, one part does one thing another part does another. BUT to be legal it needs to be done so and so. BUT here is the rub, how much do I spend on regulations on a high risk venture, when there might be a negative return?
Time is money and you just wasted some by getting advice from the wrong source. Architects know how your facility can be modified and how it can be made to comply with regs. They can tell you what is feasible and how much it is going to cost. No other source can do this for you. Not even god.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (19) Aug 04, 2012
been coerced and to send out a different inspector. Usually, those businesses keep their clients by "word of mouth" and want to keep their clients as long as
I think it is funny when people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about, think that their 'common sense' is somehow worth more than someone elses? They state the obvious, something which would occur to anybody, and think that they are adding value to the discussion by doing so.

They are not. They are adding refuse which only gets in the way. They get a little thrill from posting however and this makes up for the ignorance they display I guess. But this is selfish behavior and should not be tolerated.

Maybe p/r/r/p/o the lying flooding sickpuppet menagerie would like to fiddle with themself in private instead of doing so here?
freethinking
2.1 / 5 (8) Aug 05, 2012
Otto, Architects know how your facility can be modified and how it can be made to comply with regs.

You are missing the point. Why do I need to hire an Architect, only because of regulations? Who is going to pay for the Architect so that I can ensure I meet some obscure regulation? Lets see, this part of the building I can only do X, so I need a wall and a door, because the other side I will be doing Y. If I need more room, I just can go and set up a station, I need to move a wall.

Regulations are KILLING jobs. The auditor told us of a elderly person who ran a small volunteer company for fun, he paid volunteers a stipend of a few buck, however he was audited after many years and because he made a technical, paper work error, wound up owing over $80K. Bankrupting him.

Otto, tell me why it is ok for the government to bankrupt an elderly man for making a minor mistake on some forms, on a part time business?
kochevnik
2.7 / 5 (7) Aug 05, 2012
IF this works, I could be employing up to 20 additional employees. BUT BECAUSE of Progressives and their love of regulations, we are being delayed.

Since Progressive Obama want to take credit for successful businesses, if this project fails, Can I blame Obama?
Regulations are the only thing keeping your customers alive after using your shitty products.
I couldn't due because regulation overhead would cost more than I could make
So the "invisible hand" is working. Meanwhile your competitors keep steaming ahead.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (6) Aug 05, 2012
For the same reason you always hated your mother for being a prostitute, and your father for being a transvestite, and your sister for smelling like elderberries.

"VD, why do you and other progressives hate people with jobs?" - FreeTard

Are you still abusing farm animals FreeTard?
Vendicar_Decarian
4.2 / 5 (6) Aug 05, 2012
There has been no greater theft of property than the theft of Palestinian property by the corrupt Israeli Government.

Ryggtard clearly supports that theft.

"Golda Meir said the Palestinians will stop terrorism when they love their children, life, more than hating the Jews and life." - RyggTard
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (20) Aug 05, 2012
You are missing the point. Why do I need to hire an Architect, only because of regulations?
Because its the law.
Who is going to pay for the Architect so that I can ensure I meet some obscure regulation?
Uh you are?
Lets see, this part of the building I can only do X, so I need a wall and a door, because the other side I will be doing Y. If I need more room, I just can go and set up a station, I need to move a wall.
If you go moving doors and building walls you are affecting the ability of people to get out in the event of fire. Your alterations need to be drawn up by an architect and approved by the state and local jurisdiction so you can get a Bldg permit.

Making alterations can affect the structural integrity of your Bldg. You cant move walls without affecting bldg HVAC and fire protection systems, not to mention that it might fall down. Etc.

If you make alterations without a Bldg permit you can lose your insurance and be shut down. Or sued.
Argiod
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 06, 2012
It starts to become scary when the country's biggest industries keep their money outside the country. Do they know something we don't? How quaint that these companies CEOs can pack up and move to another country and live like kings; while those of us who worked hard to make their fortunes are scrounging in dumpsters...
Which leaves us to wonder:

Who is John Galt?
kochevnik
1 / 5 (2) Aug 06, 2012
It starts to become scary when the country's biggest industries keep their money outside the country.
Way behind the 8 ball. Nation states are so yesterday. Two out of three Abrahamic religions only care about Zion or a black cube at Mecca, not whatever country they're in at the moment.
@Freeofthinking Why do I need to hire an Architect
Because your god has disowned you.
kirsdela
1 / 5 (2) Aug 06, 2012
as Billy explained I didnt know that a stay at home mom able to get paid $7613 in a few weeks on the computer. have you read this webpage http://clockurl.com/mj
freethinking
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 07, 2012
OK VD, Otto or any progressive. Simple example I just ran across. You are a mom, came up with a great pillow design, you start sewing, people around you say to make more and sell them, you set up a website and try selling them. How much money will it cost her to just to register to sell within every State in the US? What regulations does she have to meet? Remember This is a pillow, nothing more, nothing less. If she can sell this design across the US she would employ hundreds, but she has to get started. This should be simple right, just a pillow. I an progressive who thinks regulations are not killing jobs, to figure out how much it will cost, and how much time it will take for her to legally to manufacture a pillow and sell it across the US. BTW I'll help you get started, below is a link talking about the label law she needs to follow.

http://www.southe...nual.pdf
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (15) Aug 07, 2012
FT

What does that have to do with you modifying your facility so that it degrades air quality or traps people in the event of a fire? Or asphyxiates them from smoke? Or causes fire to destroy the facility because you unwittingly took down a firewall? Or causes it to collapse during an earthquake or windstorm?

Or causes you to lose your insurance or be shut down by the bldg inspector because you thought you were being clever and libertarian by not getting a Bldg permit, and you go out of business?

Or you make it handicapped inaccessible, or someone falls down a flight of stairs, and get your ass sued off?

These are only the few things i could think of in 10 minutes. What do moms and pillows have to do with any of that?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) Aug 07, 2012
What regulations does she have to meet?
Let's see, she makes it out of highly flammable material and stuffs it with carcinogenous foam. She dyes it with stuff which causes many people to get skin diseases. She packages it in plastic bags which suffocates a few dozen kids.

Regs are enforced to prevent these sorts of things. They are a summary of lessons learned.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (12) Aug 07, 2012
I'm sorry FT but that is not an adequate answer. Try words. Try saying 'Why yes of course otto, regs are there to protect us from people who put melamine in baby food and water in gasoline.'
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Aug 07, 2012
FreeOfThinking got a bargain basement deal on some radioactive Chinese drywall and hopes to postpone discovery of his corner-cutting long enough to wire the proceeds to Mitt's offshore island paradise.

Meanwhile down-voting Otto with sock puppets should terrorize him into silence.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (14) Aug 07, 2012
"Yes otto, I forgot that before regs, people were bottling turpentine and opium and calling it medicine, and building Chicago so that it could burn down all at once. Thank jebus for govt, and otto for insight."
freethinking
1 / 5 (3) Aug 07, 2012
Otto, the facility regulations are just tax regulations, for example in this chair you can have someone on a project typing in word, and for another project you need to build a wall add a door so that another person can do programming. Nothing is for safety.

Otto, you definitely hate innovative people. The regulations for sewing is labeling that no-one even reads. Have you read your pillow label? Again nothing about safety, just government jobs killing real jobs. How many government employees are employed making sure little old ladies put the right tag on for the right state. If she mistakenly puts the tag on for florida and sells it in marryland she will be fined. Now if she was a large company out of China she could just give some money to the Obama or Clinton then they can import items full of lead and toxic materials cheaply.
SatanLover
1 / 5 (3) Aug 07, 2012
UK jews saying its okay for german jews to steal palestinian land.
white people acting like arabs.

this bothers me as an european.

ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 07, 2012
"the Arabs themselves recognize that they have a cultural problem. The Arab Human Development Report of 2002 singled out three "deficits" of Arab society that are "obstacles" to progress. One was the lack of political freedom; another was the narrow knowledge base; and the last, the status of women. "
" The tendency to hold the Arabs blameless for their own culture is part of the predilection to hold them harmless for the lack of peace agreement with Israel. The Israelis have much to account for, but they are not alone in this matter and they are not the ones who have over and over again rejected peace plans. The adamant refusal to hold the Arabs accountable infantilizes them --"
http://www.realcl...026.html
freethinking
1 / 5 (4) Aug 08, 2012
Otto, here is a link to a story talking about what it takes to make pillows. Why do progressives hate small businesses?

http://www.thebla...-pillow/
peter09
not rated yet Aug 08, 2012
Interesting discussion.
For a completely personal view on this (from the UK) I believe that we need to look again at why we have business, the economy, trade etc.

The reasons we have all these things (ultimately) is to improve our well-being, if these things are not doing that then we need to review the way things work.

From the 40's onward I believe business and politicians became focused on business profits as the measure of success and forgot the base reasons for the economy's existence. This resulted in movement of cash from the 'worker' to corporations and small groups of individuals.

Part of this resulted in a real reduction in wages driven by the need to increase profits. This impact of this was effectively hidden by reduced manufacturing costs and Credit availability.

Companies forgot they need consumers and this was part of the reason we experienced a crash from 2008.

Whatever is decided on company tax needs to consider these sorts of issues of profit/consumer.
peter09
not rated yet Aug 08, 2012
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 08, 2012
Companies forgot they need consumers and this was part of the reason we experienced a crash from 2008.


The crash was caused by an inflated housing market. Inflated by easy govt money. This is called inflation, the govt creates more money out of thin air devaluing said money.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) Aug 08, 2012
you need to build a wall add a door so that another person can do programming. Nothing is for safety.
Obviously you know nothing about walls. There are structural walls which, if you cut holes in them, may make your bldg fall down.

OK so far?

There are fire walls, which are designed to withstand fire for a certain amount of time. If you cut holes in them they will no longer be able to prevent fire from spreading.

Yes?

There are paths of egress through walls, doors and openings. If you move these openings or change their configuration, people may no longer be able to get out in the event of an emergency.

Make sense?

There are smoke barrier walls, exterior weather-resistant walls, acoustic walls, shear walls, insulating walls, walls made of layers of all sorts of materials that, if you or your dumbass contractors go and modify them without knowing what they are or what they are doing, could cause people to be KILLED and inventory to be RUINED. And you to go out of business.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (11) Aug 08, 2012
Now if she was a large company out of China she could just give some money to the Obama or Clinton then they can import items full of lead and toxic materials cheaply.
And without regs she could make items full of lead and toxic materials right here. Many have and many would if it wasnt against the law to KILL PEOPLE through greed and negligence.

I fail to understand the source of your profound disconnect. Do policemen make you nervous?
http://www.chem-t...ook.html
http://www.nbcmon...dex.html
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 08, 2012
How horrible it is for her to have to comply with state regulation to sell her pillows in those states.

What she really needs, clearly, is a consistent regulatory framework from the federal government rather than these piecemeal regulations required by every individual state.

Do you think she needs to comply with European regulations when shipping to Europe?

"Otto, here is a link to a story talking about what it takes to make pillows. Why do progressives hate small businesses?" - Free Tard
freethinking
1 / 5 (3) Aug 09, 2012
VD how horrible it is for a small person to try to be a productive member of society. Easier to joing a public union, do nothing, get a pension, be rude to those that pay tax, destroy those that pay taxes, or like you, sit in your mothers basement.

Progressives such as yourself site safety, yet safety has nothing to do about it.
freethinking
1 / 5 (2) Aug 10, 2012
Progressives would rather have you live in shelters than make some change.

http://www.thebla...-income/

Progressives love regulations more than children, women, or any real employment. Now if this kid was from China or a Drug cartel, they could give money to the democrats who would make things easier for him to sell lead contaminated hot dogs, by making regulations so difficult no one else can compete.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (4) Aug 10, 2012
I agree with John Galt and Doc Savage. 'Progressives' have a mental disorder, suffering from low self esteem and prefer to destroy what others create instead of creating their own.
Instead of watching others be more successful, they impose regulations to slow their real progress. That's what the govt did to Microsoft and many other companies that become too successful.
They try to force people into unions so no one can be inspired to work harder or smarter and be rewarded for that.
And the current regime enables them with comments such as "you didn't build that" and encourages more govt dependency.