Study: Information literacy can combat 'fake news'

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It's not difficult to verify whether a new piece of information is accurate; however, most people don't take that step before sharing it on social media, regardless of age, social class or gender, a new Ohio University study has found.

A new study conducted by Ohio University professor Dr. M. Laeeq Khan found that several factors can be used to predict someone's ability to detect , otherwise known as "," on social media. Additionally, the study found that, by looking at certain factors, it is also possible to predict if someone is likely to share misinformation based on the same factors.

The study, titled "Recognise misinformation and verify before sharing: a reasoned action and perspective," was published in the journal Behaviour and Information Technology.

"This is a pioneering study that helps understand why individuals would share misinformation on social media using a theoretical lens and factors," Khan said.

The idea for the current study came from a larger research project in which Khan investigated the spread of misinformation on social media during past U.S. elections.

In this study, Khan wanted to take a look at misinformation as a whole.

"Fake news and misinformation could be rightly termed as the major issues of our time. Almost every other study in this realm falls short of highlighting the vital role of individuals in halting the spread of misinformation," Khan said.

To test the research hypotheses that predict the sharing of misinformation, Khan decided to extend his work from a U.S. framework to gather data in Indonesia. Indonesia is not only one of the largest markets in the world, the country has caught news headlines for fighting misinformation and hoaxes, especially during its election season.

The study asked participants to rate their perceived internet skills, self-esteem and internet experiences as well as their attitudes towards fact-checking online information, belief in reliability, and how often participants shared information without fact checking.

There were 396 participants in the study, which found that age, and gender did not play a huge part, but rather media and information literacy was found to be the biggest factor in recognizing misinformation.

"The important role of information literacy is often taken for granted. It was found that information verification skills such as simply Googling some new piece of information and not sharing it right away could prove beneficial in halting the spread of misinformation," Khan said. "In addition, information verification attitude greatly mattered."

Those who have a strong belief in the reliability of the information are more likely to share information online without verification.

"Online users must possess an attitude of healthy skepticism when any information comes their way. Such an attitude of information verification by individuals can prove to be a major counterweight to the rising misinformation online," Khan said.

While many respondents said that they felt it was important to share verified information, some do not have the or information literacy to accurately assess whether information they are sharing is in fact correct.

The study found that people from lower education levels, lower income and those newer to the internet would benefit most from learning additional information literacy.


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In Indonesia, young and old share fake news on social media

More information: M. Laeeq Khan et al. Recognise misinformation and verify before sharing: a reasoned action and information literacy perspective, Behaviour & Information Technology (2019). DOI: 10.1080/0144929X.2019.1578828
Provided by Ohio University
Citation: Study: Information literacy can combat 'fake news' (2019, March 11) retrieved 24 August 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-03-literacy-combat-fake-news.html
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Mar 11, 2019
Republicans don't want to be information literate. They are willfully ignorant.

Mar 11, 2019
Straight up, it doesn't matter what information you provide.

Real people believe what they want to believe no matter what information is provided. They'll just ignore you if you say something they don't want to believe. It makes no difference whether it's true or false; they won't evaluate that. They don't care.

The average IQ is 100.

Mar 12, 2019
Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
The Works of George Santayana, Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)

BAck to Faux U. for the proggies.

Mar 12, 2019
"Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect..." = incoherent word salad.

Mar 12, 2019
Also, of course, when someone has lied, they will continue to deny even when the evidence has mounted so high they are about to be buried.

So there's that to consider too. This is false skepticism; rationalizations to cover up the lies.

Mar 12, 2019
Also, of course, when someone has lied, they will continue to deny even when the evidence has mounted so high they are about to be buried.

So there's that to consider too. This is false skepticism; rationalizations to cover up the lies.

LMAO.
Brays, Da Schitts, the "meat loving, knob gobbler.
Hey Da Schitts, no one has told you, in using multiple sock puppets to converse with and praise yourself, you are only lying to YOU.

Mar 12, 2019
The kind professor is failing to include major media outlets in his studies. While he is at it he might as well evaluate the news created by the deep state and by government sponsored false flags.

The fact is that most of our so called news is agenda and not fact driven.

Mar 12, 2019
What do you do with a troll that keeps trying to turn the evidence they're lying back on itself to the point where they're accusing the entire fucking world of lying to them?

Mar 12, 2019
"Real people believe what they want to believe no matter what information is provided. They'll just ignore you if you say something they don't want to believe. It makes no difference whether it's true or false; they won't evaluate that. They don't care."

That is definitely part of the problem. People are programmed and very few are able to come to unbiased decisions based solely on logic.

Mar 12, 2019
Unless they're trained to examine their assumptions repeatedly.

One notable feature of trolls is they never examine their assumptions and do everything they can to avoid anyone else doing so.

Mar 12, 2019
"Republicans don't want to be information literate. They are willfully ignorant."

I gave you a 5 by mistake V4V. THAT is a very biased statement and just adds more proof to Da's statement.

Mar 12, 2019
"Unless they're trained to examine their assumptions repeatedly."

Well that is the problem with being programmed. It is quite impossible to examine the evidence in an unbiased manor.

I prime example of this is our political situation. Just ask a person who has done more illegal stuff, Hillary or Trump. You will never get a fair non political evaluation.

Mar 12, 2019
What is examining your assumptions repeatedly but elimination of bias?

Now you're just making shit up to try to cover up your lies. '

In case it hasn't penetrated yet, this is obvious stuff no one has missed. Which you now claim to have just discovered, lying again as usual.

Integrity is the question, and it's obvious you have none. When you keep doubling down on the lie, eventually mommy spanks.

Mar 12, 2019
I see Da. So you are the person they modeled Spock after. Congrats on that.

Mar 12, 2019
No, just a person who repeatedly examines their assumptions.

Which you obviously are not.

Mar 12, 2019
Let's try an easy question Da. Can grant money corrupt science?

Mar 12, 2019
Let me ask you one: how much grant money do you think there is? And another: ever heard of auditors?

Mar 12, 2019
It can be said the "research" mentioned in the article engages in misinformation. It talks about not spreading untruth or finding the facts in a situation and spreading them. But, in so many cases, facts are not mentioned and many are addicted to believing what they are told by those who have power. The Democratic Rackets suggested, though they never said it out loud, that separating illegal alien children from parents was an act of cruelty by President Trump. In fact, it was the illegal alien adults claiming they were parents that the children were separated from, and that is based on laws of the U.S. more than a century old that said children should not accompany parents when the parents are taken into custody! Simply not telling a truth can be typified as a lie! And consider all those who believe "evolution", "relativity" and all because people in lab coats said they're true, but the people never saw any proof for themselves!

Mar 12, 2019
" And consider all those who believe "evolution", "relativity" and all because people in lab coats said they're true, but the people never saw any proof for themselves!"

Julian I was with you up until that point.

The fact is that almost all of today's news serves an agenda and as such can be considered a lie. As you pointed out the facts that are purposely left out of an article can be more important than the facts reported. In Trump's case he was ordered by the courts to separate the children from their parents after 30 days. This was used as a ploy by the liberal courts to stop the government from detaining illegal immigrants.

Mar 12, 2019
Information literacy can combat 'fake news'
It would seem to me from the comments - that most people fully agree with the core premise of the article. It would seem to me - from comments like this from MR
Well that is the problem with being programmed
That this fully agrees with the premise - that rather than being 'programmed' - we should shoot for a goal of being able to construct our own conclusions - using critical thinking. So I was raised fundamentalist christian - and yes you are right MR - I was totally programmed. Many of us do escape the cult - and learn to think independently. I no longer believe that Jesus lives in my heart - and as such I am going to spend eternity in heaven - walking on streets paved with gold. So should qualify me for identification of program behavior - correct? I try to gather my world information - from diverse sources. I often watch Fox news. So when I listen to my relatives who are Trump cult followers. cont.

Mar 12, 2019
Onions I have found that everyone has biases that make them process the same facts differently and come up with opposite opinions. Having a high IQ does not really insure that one is open minded. As an example you see renewables as being ready to replace fossil where as I see the problems that still need to be solved. We are all looking at the same facts but editing out the ones that do not agree with our bias.

Mar 12, 2019
cont. - I am amazed at their ability to live with cognitive dissonance. Take for example - MR's question about criminal behavior of Trump vs. Clinton. I have read numerous books about Trump - including his 'Art of the Deal.' So I will give you one example of dissonance. Trump claims he is a billionaire. He has claimed various actual numbers - the highest being $11 billion. Yet when challenged on these claims by a journalist - Trump was forced into an out of court settlement - of undisclosed penalty. In other words - this is one significant example of him being a liar. Now I am no a Clinton supporter (the opposite) - but to claim Hillary is a worse criminal than Trump - puts MR into cult worship land. But hey MR - happy for you to counter my example with a Hillary example. And I will then match with another Trump example. I believe you will lose this one - https://thehill.c...prove-it

Mar 12, 2019
So that is your best shot......Trump is not a billionaire. Meanwhile 100s of millions were poured into the Clinton Foundation by foreign governments while she was Sectary of State. Then they immediately stopped when she lost the presidency. As I said our biases make us process the same facts differently no matter how hard we try to be impartial.

Mar 12, 2019
We are all looking at the same facts but editing out the ones that do not agree with our bias
But facts are facts MR. Renewables are quiet able to replace fossil fuels. There is a mountain of evidence to support that assertion. I would never say there are not problems to be solved. There are. But - hard evidence - such as countries around the world employing more and more renewables - very clearly show us that renewables can do the job. There may be a cost. There will be a cost if we choose to go with 100% nukes. So what you and your Trump cult members fail to understand - is that facts are facts - not subject to personal opinion. It is not MY opinion that renewables can power the world - it is a verifiable fact. https://en.wikipe...e_energy

Mar 12, 2019
As I said Onions our biases make us diminish the importance of facts that conflict with them.

Mar 12, 2019
OMG Onions Trump might have lied. Yea every liar should immediately be removed from office. Well that is one way to get a smaller government.

Much Much smaller!

Mar 12, 2019
So that is your best shot...
No MR - that is my opening shot. Understand - I am not a Clinton supporter. I believe she is a crook. So do you see that distinction? I acknowledge her transgressions. So do you believe that Trump is not a crook? Here MR - shot # 2 - https://www.busin...t-2018-5
shot # 3 - just for fun - https://ftalphavi...mark-up/

Mar 12, 2019
OMG Onions Trump might have lied
No - Trump did lie. Here is the distinction I make. I think he should be held accountable for his lies - just as I think Hillary should be accountable for her lies. You on the other hand - overlook facts that you don't agree with - as you are a member of a cult - just as I used to be a member of a cult. The value of critical thinking - is unmasking the cult behavior. And sure - Democrats are quite capable of cult behavior - which is why I aint a Democrat.

Mar 12, 2019
Onions I know very little about ZTE and who owns the amusement park development. In some projects here in the US he is involved in others he just rents out his name. All I know is that if there is any meat on this bone the Democrats will be all over it as they should be.

Mar 12, 2019
What I do know is that China does not respect intellectual property and they have embedded spy chips in some of our servers. The less we deal with them the better as far as I am concerned.

Mar 12, 2019
What I do know is that China does not respect intellectual property
And so what happens MR - is that when faced with facts that counter your narrative - you duck and twist - and never accept what is in plain sight. So what about ZTE? The point is that you are a Trump cult member. You WILL not see the facts - no matter how much they are put in the table in front of you. Trump is a crook - so is Hillary. Critical thinking brings people who have escaped the cult - to that understanding. Just the same as being raised to believe that Jesus can come into your heart - and give you eternal salvation - makes you a cult member. Escaping the cult is tricky. You can't do it - and we all live with the consequences of a screwed up planet. No different than a radical terrorist - strapping on a suicide vest - and blowing him/herself to pieces.

Mar 12, 2019
only one thing matters about Trump , all the right people hate him , which makes him a saint.

Mar 13, 2019
all the right people hate him , which makes him a saint
It is good that the mask is coming off. We can perhaps deal with the rot. And all the right people love him - right? The Saudi's, Duterte, Kim, Putin etc. etc. etc. And look who he surrounds himself with. Sater, Cohen, Mannafort, Stone, Papadopoulos, Gates, Flynn etc. etc. etc. https://www.amazo...37454692

But you think he is a saint - cuz people may know about his criminal past. It is very clear that his current strategy is to hold office through 2024. Claim executive immunity while in office - so the avalanche of criminal activity now being investigated goes by - and then wait out the statute of limitations. Hopefully he wont succeed - but he has defied the odds so far.

Mar 13, 2019
There is something inherent funny in an article that describes science of criticism, sourcing and misinformation, upon which the comments 1) take the result for granted and 2) makes unsourced claims and 3) provides misinformation by injecting politics and even in one crackpot comment anti-science claims.

The work is a moderately powered (n ~ 400), a survey, and using regression (possibly without stating null; it is pay-walled), any of which factor means that it would need confirmation to be reliable. And I realize it is funny too that I can still make that pitch for information literacy in the context of a thread that shows that it would be sorely needed!

Mar 13, 2019
@greenos, what crimes do you claim Hillary Clinton committed? Topical since this thread is about fake news.

Mar 13, 2019
"what crimes do you claim Hillary Clinton committed?"

Well how about that child molestation ring she ran from Comet Pizza?

Huh?? Huh?? Huh???

Mar 13, 2019
"What I do know is that China does not respect intellectual property " - MR166

Perhaps that is because the idea of intellectual property is illegitimate.

Mar 13, 2019
"Meanwhile 100s of millions were poured into the Clinton Foundation by foreign governments while she was Sectary of State" - MR166

Ya, so? It is a well known charity.

Sorry boy, you are mentally ill.

Mar 13, 2019
"What I do know is that China does not respect intellectual property " - MR166

Perhaps that is because the idea of intellectual property is illegitimate.

I will point to the USPTO. A patent gives the holder the right to exclusively exploit an invention for a set number of years, in order to incentivize inventions. How is this illegitimate? Are inventions illegitimate? Is government subsidizing them illegitimate? What's the problem you have here?

Mar 13, 2019
Liar.. Liar.. Pants on fire...

"The fact is that almost all of today's news serves an agenda and as such can be considered a lie." - MR166

MR166 = Mentally illness

Mar 13, 2019
"what crimes do you claim Hillary Clinton committed?"

Well how about that child molestation ring she ran from Comet Pizza?

Huh?? Huh?? Huh???
You mean the child molestation ring that was run from the basement of a pizza parlor that doesn't have a basement?

You should use the sarcasm tag for these.

In any case, this is topical: the ultimate in fake news.

Reprehensibles will repeat any lie in order to get elected. This "controversy" was completely manufactured by the Reprehensibles to discredit Clinton during the election cycle.

Mar 13, 2019
And see, this "Pizzagate" fake news shows that it's not merely stupidity that generates it; malevolent action does as well. Liars are as effective as the merely deluded. Reddit decided they were liable to be sued by the pizza parlor and axed the offending groups, but by that point the conspiracy theory had spread beyond their ability to suppress. It didn't help any that the Turks published it after the Turkish government encouraged it.

Information literacy isn't going to help with that.

Mar 13, 2019
Da Schneib - I said she was a crook. I think the Clintons are crooks. I think that getting paid many millions of dollars - to speak before groups that clearly are trying to influence the government - is crooked - and at best crony capitalism on steroids.

https://www.usnew...ing-fees

But Da Schneib - I really don't want to get into a deep analysis of Bill and Hillary. My point is that the whole system is rotten to the core. Corporations run our government - and hence we have a very broken system. Millions live in poverty and squalor - while the 1 percenters manipulate the system - to keep the poor - poor, and the filthy rich - filthy rich. I am trying to present the argument - that we don't solve problems (such as poverty, drugs, crime, climate change etc.) by drinking the cool aid - and worshiping a broken system (neo liberal capitalism.)

Mar 13, 2019
Formal philosophy was invented during the enlightenment for educated people who were no longer susceptible to the messages religion was peddling.

But even though the vehicles were different, the messages were the same; life after death, special dispensation, unfathomable depths, faith... along with vital sociopolitical messages such as eurocentrism and manifest destiny.

Both were tailored to target different audiences. We have the same sort of targeted manipulation today. Intellectuals are just as susceptible to propaganda as lesser beings; the messages just have to be tailored to play on their own particular vanities and weaknesses, and of course their tribal affinities, perhaps the greatest motivator of all.

Faith is belief despite evidence. As soon as people trade reason and hard evidence for the belief that their ideology is above such pedestrian distractions, you've got them hooked. You can feed them all the fake news you want and they will not know the difference.

Mar 13, 2019
https://www.zeroh...-so-easy

Meanwhile our progressive feelgood educators are destroying our educational system. Imagine they will try to push free college for these same kids.

Mar 13, 2019
The bottom line here is that we live in an agenda driven world and there is very little interest in reporting uncomfortable truths. Right and wrong has been replaced with the end justifies the means. George Orwell is a prophet of our times and knew the potential harm that an omnipotent government could do. The people are little more than a school of sardines to the .1%. " If you were paying attention you would be worried to." Monk

Mar 13, 2019
Meanwhile our progressive feelgood educators are destroying our educational system
You recently asserted that 90% of teachers supported the Dems. When challenged to support your lie - you went quiet. Now you appear again - asserting that it is 'progressive feel good educators' who are destroying our system. Do you not get tired of being called out for your tribal political lies? As someone who works in education - I agree that our system is broken. Last year - a high school English teacher I work with - had 2 students submit identical papers. The students would not disclose who had written the paper - and who had copied. The teacher gave both students an F on the paper. The parents complained to the principle. Have you been following the story of the wealthy celebs - who are buying slots at exclusive colleges for their kids? Trump threatened all of his schools with law suits if they release his transcripts - right? but demanded that Obama release his transcripts.

Mar 13, 2019
Onions being the good little sardine that he is does not realize why Trump is detested by both parties and say Jeb Bush would have been perfectly acceptable. Could it be that Trump was not approved by the .1% beforehand?

Mar 13, 2019
Just a follow up link to the Trump transcripts story - https://bangordai...nscript/

Seems to me there is quiet an interest in the media for publishing 'uncomfortable' truths MR. Trump is just going to make sure he uses his wealth to squash those truths. His use of non disclosure agreements has raised a lot of eyebrows. Would not want the world to know that we were sleeping with porn stars - at the same time as our wife is at home with a 3 month old child - would we? After all - this is the party of family values.....

Mar 13, 2019
OMG porn star!!! Onions did you ever hear of the Kennedys?

Mar 13, 2019
You know I will correct my calling Onions a sardine. At least sardines are free. Onions is more like a farm raised fish waiting for the guy with the bucket of food. This is what our graduates are today, farm raised fish.

Mar 13, 2019
Obama gets $400K a pop. Al Gore gets $100K. Are they crooks too? And you'll note the other names on the list, I'm sure:

https://www.thest...ers.html

I was looking for something a bit more substantial.

Mar 13, 2019
Gerald Ford was the first one. And Jimmy Carter did it too, although it's claimed he donates the money to his charitable foundation. Reagan once took $1,000,000 for a single speech. Both Bushes have done it.

Got anything a little more, you know, criminal and stuff? Because this isn't flying with me. I thought you were a bit more progressive than that.

Mar 13, 2019
Da you are correct. These are nothing but payoffs.

Mar 13, 2019
I also found articles that say that 94% of teacher's union money, from the two top unions, goes to Democrats, and that 50% of teachers voted for Clinton vs 32% for Trump.

Hate to say it, but looks like @MR got this one right; should have stuck to its guns, but I guess it's not very good at the google.

Mar 13, 2019
Well, now, I don't know that I agree about that @MR. Looks like free enterprise to me. After all, musicians get paid a lot too, for little more. Not to mention football and baseball players, and numerous other folks who will no doubt spring to mind. Some surprising ones, too. You'd be surprised; there are people who live off of public speaking who are relative nobodies. Check this site out: https://speakingl...ng-gigs/

Wow, "speakinglifestyle dot com?" Really? Yes really. Just like there are musicians who aren't stars who make a living at it too.

Mar 13, 2019
Still waiting for why Hillary is supposedly a "crook." Right now my hypothesis is you got co-opted by fake news, @greenos. And the more research I do the more traction that hypothesis is getting.

Mar 13, 2019
Da entertainers sell tickets and get paid from the proceeds. Politicians sell influence.

Mar 13, 2019
Da Schneib
Got anything a little more, you know, criminal and stuff?
So you are defending a system - in which filthy rich people can make $400,000 for one speech - in the same world as millions live in filth and poverty? Millions of children die of curable diseases - cuz they had the misfortune to be born in the wrong country? I see calling out the bullshit of that system as being a progressive. Yeah Da Schneib - I see making speeches to wall street banks - for $400,000 as criminal behavior. What can Clinton say that is worth that much money? It is called buying influence - so that you can perpetuate a fucked up system. I don't care if you are "buying it." A picture like this says it all to me - http://time.com/4...g-photo/

It is not about Dems or Republicans - it is about the filth of the power system.

Mar 13, 2019
Da Schneib
and that 50% of teachers voted for Clinton vs 32% for Trump
That is not 90% is it? MR said 90% of teachers support dems. That is a lie. Not so good at math there Da Schneib.

Mar 13, 2019
Straight up, it doesn't matter what information you provide.

Real people believe what they want to believe no matter what information is provided. They'll just ignore you if you say something they don't want to believe. It makes no difference whether it's true or false; they won't evaluate that. They don't care.

The average IQ is 100.


but for schneibo: 2+2/2

Mar 13, 2019
It is not about Dems or Republicans - it is about the filth of the power system.
But that's not what you said. You said
I believe she is a crook.
, referring to Hillary Clinton. When challenged on it, what you have is this public speaking gig thingy. And that appears to be all.

And as far as the teachers thing, looks like 94% of teacher's unions' money goes to Democrats. I have the link. It's on opensecrets, and well sourced. Noticed you didn't mention that.

And I'm not defending any system. I'm pointing out that your comments seem inconsistent, and you're accusing me of "defending a system."

You look like you're trolling. It's not a good look on you.

Mar 13, 2019
https://www.breit...clinton/

How timely, we were just talking about who is the bigger crook.

Mar 13, 2019
looks like 94% of teacher's unions' money goes to Democrats.
Which is different than saying 90% of teachers support democrats. That is a lie. So who is trolling?

I am happy to acknowledge that I may have been incorrect in saying that Hillary is a crook. What I was saying is that I think she is crooked. I think that taking $400,000 to make a speech to Wall Street Banks - with the obvious intent of selling influence is crooked. It is evil.

You have acknowledged that it is common practice for politicians (of both parties) - to get filthy rich - selling influence. You have not condemned that behavior. In fact you seem to be endorsing it. Your position seems to me the old "well they all do it - don't they? Billionaires - living in the same world as millions die of starvation.

Mar 13, 2019
Well, 94% of their union money goes to Democrats. Looks like support to me. Otherwise, why aren't the teachers leaving the unions and depriving them of money? $32 million in the last election cycle.

Just sayin'.

Meanwhile, as for the "crooked Hillary" meme, you seem to be supporting it. This was my point; it's fake news.

If you're saying all politicians are crooks, I might disagree with that, but if you said "most" instead of "all," I might not. But that also is not what you said. You said,
I believe she is a crook
singling her out for it. Those are very different statements.

I would also argue that perhaps some Democratic influence in large financial institutions might not be a bad thing. The influence appears to be something the speaker generates in the audience, rather than the reverse.

Mar 13, 2019
Just sayin'.
No you are not just saying. You are supporting a shitty little liar - who blankets the internet with lies - and when called on those lies - goes quiet - until the next thread. 94% of union money - is NOT the same as "90% of teachers support dems." Your own stats showed that to be a lie.
singling her out for it
I don't single her out for it. If you look at the context - MR raised Hillarie's name - and as with many others - MR is saying Trump good - Clinton bad. I was making the point that I don't think in that binary way - but I see Clinton as a crook too. I don't support Clinton - and oppose Trump. I see them both as crooked. I see the SYSTEM as broken. That is the point I make over and over. The SYSTEM is fucked up - and excuses a world in which millions die of starvation - while other live in massive wealth - and see nothing wrong with that reality. I too am rich and privileged. My $40,000 a year salary would be a kings ransom to most.

Mar 13, 2019
The thing that is scaring me the most is the violations of the rule of law in the Trump investigation. Attorney client privilege has been decimated. That is one of the underpinnings of our justice system. So now the FBI can pretty much seize all office records of anyone that they please and use that information to flip them into witnesses against any target. The ACLU should be up in arms about this but they are silent. YOU should be very worried about the coming police state.

BTW don't even bother to mention that Clinton was impeached. That investigation paled in comparison.

Mar 13, 2019
@mr
Onions I have found that everyone has biases that make them process the same facts differently and come up with opposite opinions
I am going to challenge this:
this is true for certain things that you consider "factual", and usually those things are incorrectly labelled as such considering they're subjective (These things are typically demonstrated in political or moral discussions)
In science, a scientific "fact" isn't subjective - and by scientific fact, I specifically mean something that is repeatedly validated, like GR/SR. it can be "wrong" only where it breaks down and we have no further data or a means to verify it (within the event horizon of a BH comes to mind)

when someone ignores repeatedly validated scientific facts, however, it's not a matter of differences of bias so much as it's a matter of some other process acting to specifically refuse the factual data, such as a political or religious belief

this directly relates to the AGW debate we have

Mar 13, 2019
@mr cont'd
is the violations of the rule of law in the Trump investigation
which laws, and what specific instances are you talking about?
So now the FBI can pretty much seize all office records of anyone that they please and use that information to flip them into witnesses against any target
they have always been able to with probable cause

if you've seen a violation of this, get me the adjudication for the warrant before commenting further
Clinton was impeached
impeachment is:
... the process by which a legislative body formally levels charges against a high official of government. Impeachment does not necessarily mean removal from office; it is only a formal statement of charges, akin to an indictment in criminal law
IOW - it's no different than an investigation with formal charges

an investigation doesn't indicate guilt (per the presumption of innocence in the rule of law) any more than accusation indicates guilt

Mar 13, 2019
@mr cont'd
The ACLU should be up in arms about this but they are silent
before you get too up in arms, you should know the difference between attourney-client privilege and confidentiality
start here: https://thelawdic...tiality/

also note: neither protects the attourney from illegal actions under the rule of law - there are exemptions to att-client privilege
see also: https://www.nolo....ege.html

the SCOTUS ruling on the scope of attourney-client privilege is here: https://caselaw.f...383.html

if you have questions, there are plenty of legal explanations for said case law, including

Mar 13, 2019
how it works , your legal system

https://www.armst...f-law-2/

https://www.armst...-of-law-
you-have-zero-rights/

and breakdown in rule of law

https://www.armst...-of-law/

Mar 13, 2019
So let me get this straight Capt. If the FBI is investigating me they can get a warrant to confiscate ALL of my lawyers records of all of his clients and dealings. Then if they find that the lawyer has committed a crime not related to me they can pressure him into testifying against me in order to limit his punishment. If that is really the case I have been deluded as to my constitutional rights.

Mar 13, 2019
@greenos, I still maintain that you've been infected with the "crooked Hillary" meme. Otherwise you wouldn't be defending it so hard.

As long as Democrats keep engaging in these purity tests, the Reprehensibles will keep winning.

Unless you want to have a civil war, slow and certain is the only way. Do you really want to see nuclear weapons detonated on US soil... by US personnel? Because that's what it would come to.

And buying Reprehensible memes like "crooked Hillary" and "anti-Semitic Ilhan Omar" is loosening the coils. Ever seen a constrictor kill a rat?

Mar 13, 2019
That constrictor is who we gotta be. Because the alternative is unthinkable.

So stop the purity tests. Once we've won and gotten what everyone needs, then we can have purity tests. Right now they only play into the hands of the Reprehensibles, and they have been for decades. I've watched it. Unfortunately the Reprehensibles don't have a monopoly on stupids.

Mar 13, 2019
Capt. as far as believing in climate science goes much of what is presented as fact is really the result of computer modeling where many of the inputs still are unknown. Chaotic systems are notoriously hard to predict.

Mar 13, 2019
See, the thing to understand about the Reprehensibles is they're accountants. They don't care about what happens ten years from now. They only care about next quarter.

This is their great weakness. A smart constrictor just tightens every time they breathe out.

Mar 13, 2019
MR166 wrote "I prime example of this is our political situation." If you meant to write 'A prime example' rather what you posted, that would seem to be a rather self-descriptive Freudian slip.

Mar 13, 2019
Anybody who wants to nuke millions of US citizens because their states voted for Trump is insane.

This is what we face if we try to force things. The other route is persuasion. And that takes time, will, and persistence. Over generations. You should consider, @greenos, how you intend to persist. There is no revolution you can bring, that will not bring on the civil war and the use of US nuclear weapons to destroy the US, on one side or the other, that does not result in the destruction of the world's premier democracy. Is that what you seek? That is the choice of the oligarchs.

I too am impatient. But I am resigned that it will not happen in my lifetime. It would be nice to see a clear path to the elimination of the system you deplore; but the path is manifold and difficult. And you are opposing it.

Mar 13, 2019
Da Schneib
I still maintain that you've been infected with the "crooked Hillary" meme
I tried really hard to clarify that what I was really trying to get at - is that i do not look at things in binary terms. Trump bad, Hillary good - or the other way round. I think that the SYSTEM is broken - and perpetuates an evil society. One in which a tiny percentage of filthy rich people - scheme, and manipulate - to keep themselves rich - and billions of the rest live in grinding poverty.
Does Trump represent an extreme case of narcissistic manipulation? sure he does. I believe he will be taken down by all of his criminal activity - but time will tell.

Mar 13, 2019
I understand, but you must also understand that the marks of the evil memes are on you. You must fight them every day, in every way. This is the only plan that wins. If you try to grab the brass ring too early you fall off. We've done an awful lot of falling off just in my lifetime.

Mar 13, 2019
You don't change the system overnight, or in a generation. If you try you get war. At the worst, civil war. It has to come at its own speed; you just keep pushing a little bit here, a little bit there, generation by generation. And try to keep from starting wars.

Mar 13, 2019
Sad preacher nailed upon the color door of time
Insane teacher be there reminded of the rhyme
There'll be no mutant enemy we shall certify
Political ends as sad remains will die
Reach out as forward tastes begin to enter you
-Yes, And You and I, Close to the Edge, 1972

Mar 14, 2019
@mr
... If the FBI is investigating me they can get a warrant to confiscate ALL of my lawyers records of all of his clients and dealings
did you read any links? like the crime-fraud exception?

Also note, the warrant is not carte blanche

again, see above links
If that is really the case I have been deluded as to my constitutional rights
actually, it's more like ignorance of the law, IMHO

most people do have considerable ignorance of the law, and it's convoluted at times
as far as believing in climate science goes much of what is presented as fact is really the result of computer modeling
this is what is annoying about your argument: you accept that modelling is OK for things like computers, smartphones, medicine, probe launches, space exploration... but suddenly, when the well-known physics are used to model the weather, they're accurate, they're getting more accurate and they make a prediction you don't like, they're crap?

2Bcont'd

Mar 14, 2019
@mr cont'd
making the claim that because they're computer models they can't know a complex system is like saying that you can't comprehend human anatomy because everybody is different

it's true that people are different, but there is a considerable amount of similarity
same for models - just because there is chaos doesn't mean you can't make predictions, otherwise we would never be able to predict weather more than a few seconds out
...where many of the inputs still are unknown
so you are willing to dismiss the knowns because you don't think we can know anything?

how does any model become accurate?

it's not just an arbitrary "f*ck it! Lets just run this code and present it" kind of science
had you read any of the links or references that I've presented to you, specifically, in the past, you would understand this

I suggest asking a computer programmer (like DaS) for input on this one

Mar 14, 2019
@mr last
I have been deluded as to my constitutional rights
I had to come back to this, mostly because there are two types of rights: Natural (fundamental, inalienable) and Legal

considering your above comments, think on this a spell:

where do your rights come from?
https://thelawdic...-rights/

https://en.wikipe...l_rights


Mar 14, 2019
Capt. thanks for your explanation of the Cohen debacle. I will try to bone up on that aspect of the law.

Mar 14, 2019
Capt. as far as believing in climate science goes much of what is presented as fact is really the result of computer modeling where many of the inputs still are unknown. Chaotic systems are notoriously hard to predict.

As for predicting the future. Here is an AGW Alarmist.
https://www.youtu...ALPEpV4w

Mar 14, 2019
In all honesty though it seems to me that all a political party has to do now is accuse a politician of collusion with another country and they can take down everyone surrounding that person with phony investigations which will bankrupt even the richest person. This will severely limit the quality of the people serving future presidents.

Mar 14, 2019
Anti this is a great post., one of your best in fact.

Mar 14, 2019
Anti your post also highlights how certain facts can be dismissed out of hand by personal biases. This is a human condition and even the most diligent person will suffer from this problem. The smart ones will admit this fact to themselves.

Mar 14, 2019
See, the thing to understand about the Reprehensibles is they're accountants. They don't care about what happens ten years from now. They only care about next quarter
So explain what your tribe plans to do about the future THIS:

"As of December 31, 2018, debt held by the public was $16.1 trillion and intragovernmental holdings were $5.87 trillion, for a total or "National Debt" of $21.97 trillion."

-I know... spend more

"Progressive Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Sunday defended what could accrue to a $40 trillion price tag for progressive policy programs, including Medicare for all, over the next 10 years..."

because

"such programs are "generational investments" toward the future of a country."

And that only makes sense when
people trade reason and hard evidence for the belief that their ideology is above such pedestrian distractions
-No? After all, Faith IS belief despite evidence.

Mar 14, 2019
Captain (and MR)
this is what is annoying about your argument...
Models are just on piece of a massively complex world (science) - and models are just one piece of a subset of that world - (climate science). So we use models to predict hurricane tracks. We of course recognize they are not perfect. Different agencies - using different modeling - show different tracks for the hurricane. Does this mean we should not model hurricanes? The models give us good information. We know that a hurricane is heading towards us - and we begin early prep. The alternative - is wait for the hurricane to strike - before taking any action.

Mar 14, 2019
@mr
In all honesty though it seems to me that all a political party has to do now is accuse a politician of collusion with another country and they can take down everyone surrounding that person with phony investigations
yes and no

I agree about the stupidity of political parties (all), but I have to clarify something: an investigation is "A formal inquiry or systematic study" [OED] usually to determine facts or obtain evidence for the purpose of understanding the details of a case or situation
see also: https://www.justi...tigation

multiple investigations may also simply be harassment, and this is also illegal and can be prosecuted

everyone gets "investigated" - for credit, jobs, license, etc. it's just a means to determine facts

it doesn't matter how many accusations you have. except in the media, who make their money on drama, we have the presumption of innocence, which is why guilt can only be determined by adjudication

Mar 14, 2019
@mr
certain facts can be dismissed out of hand by personal biases
there is a difference between dismissing facts and refusing to accept them because they directly challenge your personal beliefs

the former is bias and can be dealt with via training and experience
the latter is called delusional behaviour
The smart ones will admit this fact to themselves
the smart ones also typically accept factual, validated data that is repeatedly proven and don't run around repeatedly denying the same facts over and over again

and yes, I was intentionally being redundant in that sentence
thanks for your explanation of the Cohen debacle
I was actually just explaining the reasons a lawyer will have to violate the atty-client privilege - nothing more
I will try to bone up on that aspect of the law
a very good idea
it's always good to know where you stand

Mar 14, 2019
Da Schneib
the marks of the evil memes are on you
That was not my intent - but apologies if that is the outcome - I don't wish to be seen that way.
I do believe the system is horribly broken (elaborated on that above). The big question for me - is why don't we get together, and figure out a better way? The question can basically be asked - 'why are we so resistant to change?' That's really complex. In business, education, and government (all fields I have worked in) - I noticed the same thing. Go to a workshop on 'thinking outside the box' - come back to work and tell your boss about a great idea you have for improving process - be told to sit down and know your place in the machine.
What I have concluded - is that a small # of people really benefit from the system (Trump, Clintons etc.) Their challenge is to manipulate - and stave off any threats to the system. It is of course millions of times more complex than that. So for example - we spend billions on war. Cont.

Mar 14, 2019
cont. change the last sentence to read - we spend billions on cigarettes. That is insane right? But many profit - from the global marketing of death sticks. Above that level - many benefit from the perpetuation of a very sick system. I think we have to challenge that structure. Challenge the idea that it is OK to hoard billions of dollars - and watch millions starve to death https://www.mercy...l-hunger - and billions live in grinding poverty - https://www.dosom...-poverty

Given that I think the global elite - are invested in perpetuating this broken system - I think it is appropriate to speak truth to power. Talking about Hillary - when she is just one member of a pretty large group - was just in response to MR.
Promoting fake news - is a big part of maintaining the status quo.

Mar 14, 2019
''The end of civilization as we know it ''

https://www.youtu...hrBhhN4k

how the NY establishment use the 'law' to run their mafia'

https://www.armst...the-sec/

''The biggest potential scandal that would take place is the consistent cover-up of the way New York courts have been used to strip any competitor in the financial industry outside of New York so whatever business they created is usurped by New York.''

Mar 14, 2019
Wowww - thanks snoosebaum for taking off the mask. A very interesting youtube - about the moral decline of our world. You certainly can't disagree with the facts - regarding depression, suicide, drug use, violence - etc. I would even agree on the more subjective area of crappy entertainment.
So then we have to see clips of TUCKER CARLSON preaching to us about moral values. Ha ha ha ha ha - http://nymag.com/...pes.html He says that Trump is not the problem - but a symptom. But surely it is important - who hold the microphone. Someone who has sex with porn stars - while still married?
Soooo - we have collectively "killed god."
Actually - as he points out - we are collectively killing god.
So yes - we seem to have an existential crisis. He argues that there is no 'solution.' I think that change is inevitable - and the real challenge is in what direction we change.

Mar 14, 2019
http://nymag.com/...pes.html ''

haw, haw , but its not,, its part of the attempted coup against your democratic process , U , onion-man are agreeable to that , U, onion-man are part of the problem .

but as it turns out,, Martin Armstrong concurs w /PJW , there is no solution, its cycles [maybe]

Mar 14, 2019
haw haw - but its not???? Whats not? Could you try to actually say something pertinent?
U, onion-man are part of the problem
Well - we're all part of the world - so in one sense - we're all part of the problem. What exactly do you assert - makes me part of 'the problem?' I assume you are saying that you are not part of the problem. Could you elaborate?

Mar 14, 2019
@green

typically I avoid politics, but I do have questions:
Someone who has sex with porn stars - while still married?
why is this an issue at all?
it's a biological imperative and it's his life, so why do people care?

I dislike the man, but ... ???

and I'm not sure about this part, either
...we have collectively "killed god."
Actually - as he points out - we are collectively killing god
so, what is the big deal if humans "kill god"?
this would be akin to sacrificing a Barbie, right?

morality doesn't stem from some religious belief - otherwise, all atheists would be incarcerated

religion is definitely a problem though, IMHO - it literally trains people to focus on a dogma based upon a belief without evidence, which directly contradicts reality. most typically use force to control their followers (starting with peer and social pressures and containing fear-based excommunication or afterlife choices, etc)

is that really moral?

feel free to ignore this

Mar 14, 2019
"...all a political party has to do now is accuse a politician of collusion with another country and they can take down everyone surrounding that person with phony investigations..." MR calls asking Russia for help on global television and multiple convictions/confessions 'phony'. The only thing "phony" is that phones were used.

Mar 14, 2019
@greenos, most of what you say I agree with. What bothers me is rhetoric that plays into the hands of the destroyatives, and an urgency that isn't supportable.

The worst problem we have right now is the power of hoarded money.

It's OK for someone who can manage a large enterprise to get rich. What's not OK is for them to make obscene amounts of money, far beyond what anyone could spend in a lifetime. But what's worse is for this to give them power in politics.

The US Constitution was written so that political power is subject to checks and balances. There is no check on money, nor any balance to it. Until there is, the problems you see will never be solved.

A revolution is no solution; we've seen too many revolutions result in despotic regimes. And when you start prying it all apart, those who take over after the revolution always wind up rich, and the beat goes on.

Mar 14, 2019
https://www.youtu...hrBhhN4k

Snoose that was a great link.

People are doing things just to get "Likes" on social media. I ask you how easily could a bank of bots control the actions of 1000s of people?

Mar 14, 2019
Hi Captain - thanks for question. Here is the issue for me. Our politics seems stuck binary thinking. Us good - them bad. Otto calls it tribalism. I really don't have a tribe - but value science, truth, integrity and other things. I look for consistency - when evaluating information. You often point out - one of the lynch pins of science - being validation through repetition. So - it seems to me that the right wing people (lots of problems with left wing too.) do not value that issue of consistency. They are in my opinion - often intellectually bankrupt. They say "We are the party of family values - we want to beat you over the head with moralism - we want to paint you as moral deviants." So Billy fucking Graham gets to advise all the presidents - and Paula White gets to be adviser to Trump - but hey - the fact that he is a crime boss, and a misogynist and a racist etc. etc. - we now do a total 180 - and we have a new Messiah. I object.

Mar 14, 2019
Thanks Da Schneib - I agree with all of your points.
A revolution is no solution
Certainly not in the mode of 1917 Bolshevik revolution. I am hopeful we will change direction. I totally agree with your evaluation of the distorting power of wealth. What I hope is that we will see grass roots projects - that present alternatives to the current system of work - that will allow us to continue our technological progress - and to cautiously ask questions about how to live well, and sustainably - on planet earth. Here is one example - https://www.greenwave.org/ He asserts - that we could feed every person on the planet - with a very modest area of ocean farming. If we did this - we could shut down our unsustainble agribusiness model - and rewild millions of acres of land. Instead - we give massive government subsidies - to mega farms - that don't need it.https://www.thegu...ubsidies

Mar 14, 2019
As long as supposed "solutions" are trumpeted by the media minions of the ultra-rich, none of them will work. This is because the ultra-rich are ultra-greedy far beyond the needs of their own, and in fact far beyond the wealth they could spend in a lifetime to meet those needs.

We need to amend the US Constitution to suppress the power of the ultra-rich. It's time and past time.

Mar 14, 2019
Agreed Da Schneib. Unfortunately - one of the habits of the economic establishment - is to co-opt promising ideas - and then twist them all up - and turn them into money making rackets. I just saw on the news - a lady who runs a consulting firm - teaching people how to be 'successful' - is part of the college entrance bribery scandal. She gets rich preaching about integrity, and hard work etc. etc. and then bribes a college to get her daughter accepted.
Again and again - I come back to the issue of truth. To me science is another word for truth. It seems to me - that as long as we accept the idea of a culture - that is comfortable with lies, greed, etc. - we seem stuck.
Wish I knew how to change it. Mostly at the moment I am watching - and wondering.

Mar 14, 2019
Watch the money. That's my advice in a nutshell. And not millions; that's peanuts. Watch the billions.

There shouldn't even be billionaires. It's too dangerous.

Mar 14, 2019
MR , re ''a bank of bots''

not sure if u mean a Bank run by bots or just a large number of bots but either way bots aren't smart enough [ though armstong is building his Socretes]

re: we need to amend the US Constitution to suppress the power of the ultra-rich ,

rich is international

how about making bribes illegal , or setting term limits , Trump suggested this ,

https://www.armst...ts-easy/

Mar 14, 2019
rich is international
So what? They're somehow invisible?

And how is term limits going to fix it? In fact it makes it worse because it incentivises the destroyatives. They're the n00bs.

Mar 14, 2019
@greenO
... bankrupt
IMHO, it's true of *all* political parties
... the distorting power of wealth
if you don't mind me saying: this is subjective and dependent upon not only the individual but also on the circumstances of the wealth (and possibly numerous other factors, like cultural and societal influences)

Greed isn't always a bad thing

here is another thought:
who is more wrong: the person who is morally bankrupt or those who are complicit in said person actions, directly or indirectly?
example: actor/-tress [insert name] gets rich making movies
the same actor/-tress is morally twisted but preaches to the general public what is "right" or for the removal of [insert fundamental or constitutional right]

if this were a crime, all parties would be complicit in the eyes of the law

but it's not a crime, so who is the real problem, the actor/-tress or the person who pays for their lifestyle?

then there is: who/what determines what your "work" is worth?

Mar 15, 2019
captain
if you don't mind me saying: this is subjective
How is the 'subjective' captain?
Wealth equals power. Have you ever worked in communities of poverty? It's not a coincidence that Paul Manafort gets such a short prison sentence - and will probably get a pardon. Poor people go to jail for longer times - for much lesser crimes. They just can't afford high dollar lawyers.
it's true of *all* political parties
I see the issue of hypocrisy - as far greater in the Republican party. The moral majority, family values, party - now engaging in cult like worship of a misogynist, racist, crime boss is just weird. But so what if it is true of all parties. Does that make it OK? You and I agree that belief in god is delusional. Billy Graham, Paula White, the National Prayer Breakfast etc. etc. show how much this delusional thinking is allowed to have power in our Political system.
I am not sure I understand your parsing about who is more responsible... cont.

Mar 15, 2019
cont. I just see a world in which a tiny community of people - command unimaginable levels of wealth - and turn a blind eye to millions starving to death, and billions living in grinding poverty. I want us to stop hiding behind ideologies - and to start talking about better ways of structuring our world.

Mar 15, 2019
Watch out for @Stump. He thinks the same thing of educators as @MR does. He's on my ignore list for it. When he starts talking about safe spaces and how students are coddled you'll see it.

Mar 15, 2019
@GreenO
How is the 'subjective' captain?
just because someone has power or wealth doesn't mean they will be corrupted

there are considerable other factors involved starting with the social and cultural values
Have you ever worked in communities of poverty?
worked and lived
as far greater in the Republican party
no one party has the edge on hypocrisy, IMHO, and they're all equally repugnant in that regard
Does that make it OK?
no
IMHO, the problem is that it's acceptable to society at large
what to do about it is another set of problems altogether, though
I am not sure I understand your parsing about who is more responsible
we're all equally complicit in the problem

we support the problem and enable the morally bankrupt, etc
I want us to stop hiding behind ideologies - and to start talking about better ways of structuring our world
I can agree with this... but I have no ideas on how to bring it about

Mar 15, 2019
just because someone has power or wealth doesn't mean they will be corrupted
Not on an individual level - but on the structural level - which is what I am talking about - wealth equals power - and that power is used to perpetuate an evil system - that allows millions to starve to death. I do not possess that power - and the minimum wage workers I work with - have even less power than I do.
we're all equally complicit in the problem
Absolutely not. I don't hire undocumented workers - for subhuman wages - in order to add to my already obscene wealth. https://www.nytim...ent.html
but I have no ideas on how to bring it about
I have some thoughts - and hope to turn them into action in the future. Again - look at the potential of the GreenWave program - to feed the whole world. Surely the first step is to start talking about it - to break the cult like worship of this evil system.

Mar 15, 2019
@greenO
Absolutely not. I don't hire undocumented workers - for subhuman wages
good for you
but you (and everyone else) enable the system which leads to the wealth inequality, whether you know it or not

it's on "the structural level" as you indicate above - hence the example of the actor/-tress
the public at large are enabling the person to get rich and abuse the system because of some misguided belief that they're superior or different

maybe the artist type is superior or different, but that is no reason to value their contributions disproportionately, is it?

so long as we give the power (or the wealth, etc) to those who shouldn't have it (or abuse it) then we're all complicit in allowing the system to perpetuate

it is almost cult-like, though
look at the potential of the GreenWave
I'll read up more on it - thanks

Mar 15, 2019
Hierarchies are natural , prove me wrong ,,

Mar 15, 2019
Hi Captain - thanks for question. Here is the issue for me. Our politics seems stuck binary thinking. Us good - them bad. Otto calls it tribalism. I really don't have a tribe
The only people who are truly tribeless are people with mental deficits such as psychopaths and autistics. Tribes have their own language. We all think in memes and idioms. You use the same prog words and phrases over and over. You typically reject logic and ignore facts in defence of your ideology.

Youre obviously tribal.

Heres one of your idiot tribal thought-crimes...

" power is used to perpetuate an evil system - that allows millions to starve to death"

Mar 15, 2019
Captain
enable the system which leads to the wealth inequality
If I could change it - I certainly would. I am working to change it - but I don't have the power to change it at the moment. It is everything I can do to pay the bills - and stay healthy. So no Captain - I do not have equal responsibility in terms of perpetuation of the system - as a billionaire - who hires undocumented workers. Sorry Captain - I find it confounding that this point is not obvious.

Mar 15, 2019
Otto
You typically reject logic and ignore facts in defence of your ideology
What ideology is that Otto. Numerous people on this board - make accusations of ideological and political bias. But when pushed on the subject - can't actually identify my ideology. Please elaborate for me.

Mar 15, 2019
Otto
Heres one of your idiot tribal thought-crimes..
power is used to perpetuate an evil system - that allows millions to starve to death
That is a statement of fact.
https://www.mercy...l-hunger

Do you not believe that millions starve to death every year? Do you not believe that people with vast wealth such as Trump - could easily afford to forego some of their wealth - and save millions of lives

Mar 15, 2019
snoose
Hierarchies are natural , prove me wrong ,,
Male lions eat the cubs of their competitors - when they take over a pride. So I guess eating babies is natural - so that means we should do it. According to your logic.

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO
So no Captain - I do not have equal responsibility in terms of perpetuation of the system
I am not equating you with a billionaire who hires undocumented workers

wealth inequality comes from either fraudulent means (as you noted) or it can also come from hard work and the slow process of accumulation

do you have:
movies? a cell phone? regular phone? theatre tickets? music? sports equipment or clothes? a vacuum? food processor? grinder? mower? electric appliances? food storage?

you're officially richer than a considerable number of people on earth, including here in the US (Pine Ridge comes to mind)

IOW - just by chance and birth location, you (and everyone else) enable the system which leads to the wealth inequality, whether you know it or not

you and I are not major players, but so long as we work to live better and provide, we're complicit

that system is natural - it's the current people, politics and perspectives that are broken, IMHO

Mar 16, 2019
it's the current people, politics and perspectives that are broken, IMHO
Absolutely.
but so long as we work to live better and provide, we're complicit
well - we each have to make choices. You fail to acknowledge the issue of relative power. I have close to 0 power - due to a lot of factors. As I see it - the system is designed (not a conspiracy theory - but observation of what has evolved) to resist change. So - for example - health care. My wife has significant health issues. I MUST work - or she dies. So then you say I am 'complicit' - because I work. I desperately want to retire - but i cannot. I am trying to start a small business - in the hope that I will be able to break from the fucked up work system. But I don't have the resources (time, energy, money) to get it off the ground. I currently am trapped. Donald Trump is not. He has a choice - to hire undocumented workers - and he does the wrong thing. That is the greed of capitalism.

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO
You fail to acknowledge the issue of relative power
not really, otherwise I would say you're equal to "billionaire who hires undocumented workers"
So then you say I am 'complicit' - because I work
no - b/c you accumulate more than needed
there is a difference

example:
the difference between guilty of a crime and being a douche comes down to the process of adjudication - it doesn't matter how much you accuse someone of [x], they're not guilty of anything until the legal process finds them guilty, even if they're repeatedly investigated of [x]

you can say there is circumstantial evidence which you're basing an opinion on, but that isn't evidence of guilt any more than the same circumstantial belief is evidence of god

there is a subtle delineation between a person having an opinion about the guilt of [x] based on articles in the news (which aren't always reliable) and [x] actually being guilty of a crime

same above: Work is necessary to survive

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO cont'd
My wife ...health issues
sincerely sorry to hear that
I hope things improve
I currently am trapped. Donald Trump is not
honest question: why does he keep coming up?
He is irrelevant, really - perhaps he is an example of poor moral character, as you note here
and he does the wrong thing
but that is the point I made about the two choices: fraud vs accumulation
You're simply reiterating that your character is considerably better than his, which I concede
That is the greed of capitalism
I disagree: greed is a personal choice
Capitalism is an economic system

that means, by definition, that the greed you (and most) dislike is inherent in the person, not the system

you *can* say that capitalism rewards the sociopathic greedy type who can't empathize, but that is what the rule of law is supposed to cover as it punishes illegal activity

the failure to punish is an injustice in the legal system, not capitalism

Mar 16, 2019
no - b/c you accumulate more than needed
That is a cop out. Yes - I have more than I need - in some regards. But I am economically vulnerable. One serious illness - and I will be financially destroyed. I MUST work - to keep our health insurance - and hopefully have enough put back to cope with emergencies.
But fine - we accept that I am not equally responsible for the mess - as a billionaire. I will accept that criticism. Now what do I do?
honest question: why does he keep coming up?
Because he has reached the pinnacle of power - the President of the most powerful country in the world. Rather than use his position of power for good - he uses it for self enrichment. He has millions of times more power than I do - which in my view makes him a great example of the problem of the system.
Capitalism is an economic system
Well - our form of capitalism - is a part of a culture that rationalizes the evil of children dying - while others own dozens of homes.

Mar 16, 2019
So what's really hard for me here captain - is I really don't understand why there is the need for this argument. It seems so self evident to me - that a system that allows millions to starve to death, billions to live in wretched poverty - in the same world as a tiny handful of people have unimaginable wealth - is evil.
It is also unquestionable to me - that wealth buys power in our current system - and the powerful then make the rules - and tweak the system to perpetuate their power and wealth.
I think I understand the delusional - ideological rationalizations that someone like MR uses. It is much like religious fanatics - who defend their god - against all threats. Self preservation.

I just don't get your point.

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO
a cop out
not in this case: it's a statement of fact
Now what do I do?
that is the billion dollar question, really
this is why the problem is so hard
Because he has reached the pinnacle of power - the President of the most powerful country in the world
sorry, but I don't see POTUS as the pinnacle of power - our POTUS has limited power *for a reason*. the real power lies in Congress, and especially within the leaders of Congress
is a part of a culture that rationalizes the evil of children dying - while others own dozens of homes
the two are not linked, unless I missed something?
IMHO - owning more than one home isn't a big deal either if they worked to earn the money to do so

Honest question: why take what they worked for to enable others who refuse to better themselves?
or should we target only those who inherit money?
I really don't understand why there is the need for this argument
I wasn't arguing
offering different perspective

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO cont'd
t seems so self evident to me - that a system that allows millions to starve to death, billions to live in wretched poverty - in the same world as a tiny handful of people have unimaginable wealth - is evil
it seems self-evident to me that a *system* cannot be evil

evil requires intent, therefore it requires human input by either experience or observation

you're assigning intent to a system when the problem isn't the system, but the people
that wealth buys power in our current system
and this is not a matter of the capitalistic system, it's a matter of injustice, therefore it's a problem from our legal system, not our economic system
it also demonstrates the human issue and how we corrupt even the best of intentions, IMHO
I just don't get your point
which one?

Mar 16, 2019
Do you not believe that millions starve to death every year? Do you not believe that people with vast wealth such as Trump - could easily afford to forego some of their wealth - and save millions of lives
Your idiot tribal ideology leaves you blind to the realities of overpopulation. Ignoring the CAUSE of global hunger because of a feelgood ideology is what's evil.
Please elaborate for me
But I've done this for you many times. I did this in my comments above.

But you're the lonely, bored kind of troll who just has to bait people over and over to feed his sickness.

Pry your fat ass off the couch. Get your fat cheeks out of the cheetos bag. Go out and get some exercise and quit harassing the good people here on this site.

Mar 16, 2019
But I've done this for you many times. I did this in my comments above
Great dodge. You accuse me of 'ideological thinking.' I ask you to explain - and you dodge. No you did not explain previously - and if you think you did and I missed it - why not cut and paste - and tell me what you mean.
Pry your fat ass off the couch. Get your fat cheeks out of the cheetos bag. Go out and get some exercise and quit harassing the good people here on this site
Sorry Otto - did I force you to read my comments? You could always use the ignore button. Oh that's right - you'd rather just be a rude, ignorant thug.

Mar 16, 2019
captain
it seems self-evident to me that a *system* cannot be evil
I disagree. Sure - people are part of the system - and the intent comes from the people. BUT - it seems to me that people are capable of great good, and also great evil. But you still did not answer the core question of 'what is your point?' What is your central point? My point is that I live in sick world - and it does not have to be that way. We have the potential to do it differently. But we have to figure out how to stop being stupid. Cigarettes are a perfect example. We collectively behave insane. Study any major war. I think it is the design of the system - that can determine if we foster sanity, or insanity.
But I still don't get why you are arguing with me. Just give a synopsis of your main point. Use my example above - it aint hard.

Mar 16, 2019
Captain
sorry, but I don't see POTUS as the pinnacle of power
You just keep splitting hairs. Perhaps I should have said - Donald Trump is an immensely wealthy and powerful man. He has millions of times the potential that I do to make a difference for the good of the human race. The system rewards his criminal behavior. He is able to manipulate the system to perpetuate the evil.

Mar 16, 2019
Time for bed now. On the 'systems can't be evil' issue. Apartheid is a system - and it is evil. Sure - we can split hairs - and say that it is the people who make it evil. I think it is reasonable to think of a particular way of organizing people - as a system - and one that certainly can be evil.
And for me - the point of all of this - is to wonder what the part of fake news is - in perpetuating an evil system. Well - in order to have honest conversations about change - we must agree on the basic facts. That is why Otto and I have no chance of having an honest conversation. We don't agree on the core facts. Facts can of course be verified - but you have to have a level of integrity that Otto has no concept of - so it is just for self interest that you would even acknowledge the other ships existence.

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO
BUT - it seems to me that people are capable of great good, and also great evil
the system simply *is*
to be good or evil requires intent as well as judgement, and systems cannot judge
But I still don't get why you are arguing with me. Just give a synopsis of your main point
well, I'm not arguing, just disagreeing with certain aspects

one main point: a system *is*

but I think your arguments are about "wrongs" more than "evil", and though it loses some of the emphasis, it's still a judgement statement based on current moral values

moreover, something that is "wrong" or "evil" is entirely subjective to the perspective of the observer

using your apartheid example: it is wrong (or evil) to us, yet it was beneficial (not wrong or evil) to the proponents who utilised it under their own belief system

it doesn't matter how many people agree with you, there is always another perspective, hence my statement that a system can't be evil

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO cont'd
Perhaps I should have said - Donald Trump is an immensely wealthy and powerful man. He has millions of times the potential that I do to make a difference for the good of the human race
We can agree on this

I'm not splitting hairs; I'm trying to be as specific as I can for clarity - take this, for instance:
The system rewards his criminal behavior
I disagree with this for the following specific reason:

capitalism is an economic system, not a judicial, legal or criminal system. it may attract a personality type, but saying it rewards criminal behaviour is like saying children's playgrounds reward paedophilia
He is able to manipulate the system to...
*he*
not *the system* manipulates anything, but *he* does

that explains it all, really

we both agree there are horrendous things wrong in the world, and some of the crap is evil (or wrong)
I'm just not blaming *any* system for the actions of a few crap people who abuse it

Mar 16, 2019
@greenO
is to wonder what the part of fake news is - in perpetuating an evil system
it depends on the observer and it's cultural or sociological influences (or biases)

some people see news articles and accept that they're factual, thus they make judgement calls on the data presented without knowing facts, or they make assumptions based on repetition, much like a religious cult. This is one of the primary reasons of the presumption of innocence in our legal system - neither an accusation nor an investigation is evidence of a crime

so long as people judge without facts we will continue to have a problem with fake news (or gossip, or defamation, etc)

fake news in modern media just spreads faster, and especially when people are willing to accept the underlying premise due to a bias

personally, I distrust media sources, especially if they can't reference facts that can be validated
Time for bed now
PEACE

Mar 17, 2019
I'm just not blaming *any* system for the actions of a few crap people who abuse it
I agree with all your point above Captain. I do think there is a bit of hair splitting over questions like 'can a system be evil - or is the people who are evil?' Can we at least agree - that some systems - enable certain behaviors - more than others? So when you have a system like apartheid - you are going to see more evil (killing black people because they are black for example) - than under a different system - such as a multicultural democratic one. It is the people who decide what system to live under - but power is an important issue too. When power is concentrated into the hands of a tiny few (communist party in Soviet Union) - you get a higher likelihood of evil - because of systemic checks.
Back to fake news. I agree with your points. Central for me is the issue of tribalism. I agree with Otto in raising this issue often. Again - I am not tribal - Otto is wrong about that.

Mar 17, 2019
As you seem to be saying - in a world in which people could objectively evaluate information - fake news would not flourish. But tribalism has a vested interest in propagating fake news. When I was a 'Christian' - I could twist logic in knots - to defend my crazy beliefs. In the current capitalist system - people are rewarded with power - for doing evil (my word) things - such as making, and marketing (skillful manipulation of others) death sticks (cigarettes).
So - as I look at an insane world (have given many examples of insanity) - I wonder if we can do it better, why we are not having more conversations about how to do it better, why we are so resistant to change - etc. I come back to tribalism, and the mechanisms that support the insanity - such as fake news, economic reward system, power system etc.

PEACE back at you. Stuck in with flu last few days - why I had so much time. Feeling bit better today - so will try to get out on the garden.

Mar 17, 2019
@Green
that some systems - enable certain behaviors
My perspective is that it doesn't enable so much as it attracts the type of person who will promote it and *enable others*

even you note "It is the people who decide what system to live under", and we've seen where it was overthrow eventually because of the people, much like the US (1776, civil war, etc)

that is just one reason I have an issue with a system being imbued with an emotional judgement (see also: http://www.upstat...sion.pdf )

I understand where you're coming from, but, *and this is important* (at least, to me), when we start assigning human emotion and judgement to inanimate objects like a system, we then focus on the object instead of focusing on the inherent problem or the source of the problem - and that means we can't find a solution or the solution we do find will be either flawed or it will be based upon a false premise

Mar 17, 2019
@green
I wonder if we can do it better, why we are not having more conversations about how to do it better
true that

I think one problem we have is that people think that if a person disagrees with another, or argues about a topic with another, then that person is an "enemy" or can't think objectively about facts and data
Stuck in with flu last few days
I hope you get to feeling better

enjoy the garden and plant something tasty - I'm a fan of tomato, corn, peas, rice and bacon, but I've not yet been able to get my bacon seeds to germinate and sprout, so I'm trying something new this year... I planted chickens

:-)


Mar 17, 2019
Just onions at the moment Captain. Will put brassicas in tmrw - but have to fight with the cabbage whites. :-)

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