Universal basic income experiment made people happier but not more likely to get a job

helsinki
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Finland's Social Insurance Institution (FSII) has published the results of an income experiment it carried out for two years to learn more about ways to reduce unemployment. They report that their experiment showed that giving unemployed people a no-strings-attached guaranteed income instead of an unemployment allowance made them happier and less stressed—but it did not make them any more or less likely to get a job.

The experiment carried out by the tested the idea of a concept called (UBI), which guarantees participants a certain basic standard of living via direct cash transfer. The standard of living guaranteed includes reasonably nice housing, sufficient food, proper health care, and a means for engaging with the surrounding community. UBI is an idea that has been kicked around and tested before, but thus far, findings have produced mixed results.

In this new experiment, the Finnish government randomly chose 2,000 people who were receiving and offered them a roughly equal sum without the attendant job search requirements. Normally, there are also restrictions on how the money can be used. Subjects in the experiment were given free rein—they could live on the dole with no worries, and they would keep receiving their money even if they got a job. The experiment lasted from the beginning of January in 2017 until the end of December 2018. The results of the experiment have been widely anticipated as polls show that most people believe UBI would make people less interested in finding a job.

The government asked the volunteers how they were doing during the experiment via questionnaire. Over half reported that their heath was either good or very good. In contrast, just 46 percent of a control group said the same. The UBI participants also scored higher when reporting trust levels in the government and when asked about their future outlook. In general, the FSII report concluded that overall welfare for those participating in the UBI experiment was higher than for the control group. But there was also a downside. Unemployment for those in the UBI experiment remained at basically the same levels as for the control group.


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Citation: Universal basic income experiment made people happier but not more likely to get a job (2019, February 12) retrieved 18 October 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-02-universal-basic-income-people-happier.html
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mqr
Feb 12, 2019
We are witnessing the last decades of work. Work is going to disappear and humans are having a hard time accepting it. Indeed, Maimonides said something like: if you want to find out what is a sin, it is that keeps you away from having thoughts, since we humans are beings of knowledge, beings of ideas. Most work is sinful because it puts people in bad mental states. Humanity learned how to like work (or at least to lie ourselves about it), now it is time to forget that "working is fun".

Feb 12, 2019
And just think, this is coming to Amerika if the bimbo barista has her way.

mqr
Feb 12, 2019
And notice that there was not an increase of crime, suicide, depression, etc, so it means that giving people free money does not degenerate them, or lower them.

Rich people will understand that if they replace all workers with machines, then how people are going to earn money to buy the products and services that rich people offer?

Companies will give money to governments, governments will give money to people, then people can buy from companies.

Feb 12, 2019
The lack of change in employment is more likely a sign that while there may be jobs, the people offering them either have bad reputations on pay or work conditions, or that there are not enough jobs to go around, especially in the rural areas. The fact it had little effect on hiring has more to say about the employers than it does about the possible employees.

People are willing to put out extremely good money for the machinery, and then pay the operators a pittance comparatively, and know they are more easily replaced than the machine.

Until everybody in the world is living on a guaranteed income of some $36k/year, even to the rich (who can use it as the ONLY tax deduction instead) and a level playing field, so that there is no way to shop for low income labor anywhere, then the CorpRats are going to HAVE to pay real wages or do the work themselves...or fold.

The Rentier Businesses like Vulture Bain Romney would be in a world of hurt, living like Normal People.

Feb 12, 2019
Steelwolf what you do not address if the fact that pay is not limited by employers but by peoples willingness to purchase the end product. If you were forced to pay every McDonald's worker 75K a year, who wold be willing to pay $25.00 for a Happy Meal. Nobody! Thus every McDonalds would soon be automated and have only 1 or 2 workers per shift.

Feb 12, 2019
Heres the real kicker - "The UBI participants also scored higher when reporting trust levels in the government and when asked about their future outlook." This is how you build Venezuelas - what a great success story that has been for the citizens of that country!


Feb 12, 2019
Left to their own designs, the human tropical animal would sit around all day making babies. It would only get up to get food if it was not within reach, or to relieve itself, or to chase down reluctant mates.

But it rarely gets to live this way. Reproducing without limit and with no natural attritive elements to keep its numbers in check, it soon finds itself in competition with others for both mates and resources.

The US welfare system was instituted to quickly grow minority numbers to predetermined demographic goals after adequate dispersal around the country had been achieved.

This was nirvana to the typical human - with multiple partners for both sexes, males had little competition for mates and females were free to choose the best possible partner for each and every child they wished to bear.

Goals were achieved and the party is now over. The emphasis has shifted to interracial amalgamation with limited offspring, and integration of new immigrant ethnicities.

Feb 12, 2019
Sooooo for no more money (and less bureaucracy) you get happier and healthier people? What's not to like?

Given that with increase in automation and more and more jobs being able to be performed by some kind of AI assisted system the move to UBI is a must in any case (unless we move away from a money/barter system as a whole - which I don't see happening in the near to middling future).
Better start giving UBI to everyone sooner rather than later.

We are witnessing the last decades of work

Maybe the last century, but the last decade? Not a chance. Even those companies who tried to do full automation with a vengeance failed and have gone back to a mixed production model (prime example being Tesla)

Feb 12, 2019
"Left to their own designs, the human tropical animal would sit around all day making babies." - Otto

Translation - people must be kept corporate slaves performing useless work, or else they might actually live a pleasurable life and be free.


Feb 12, 2019
Illegal immigration achieves the same effects as did instutionalized bigotry against the newly-freed slaves. The KKK and other state-sponsored vigilante groups drove their dispersal north and west. Their communities were kept small to avoid potential animosity. They lived under heightened scrutiny to ensure that they would integrate into the prevailing culture rather than attempt to establish their own.

Currently it is the fear of ICE and deportation that achieves the same ends, and for the same purposes.

This country was established as a melting pot; that is, a process rather than a sovereign nation. It operates to rehomogenize the species. Its founders understood that divergence and speciation are the natural tendencies of all life. In humans the mechanism is expressed as tribalism. The resistance to cross-breeding is what we refer to as bigotry.

And if we are ever to eliminate conflict, reduce growth, and stabilize this planet, then these aspects among humans must end.

Feb 12, 2019
Liar.. Liar.. Pants on fire...

"This is how you build Venezuelas" - Quatch

You build Venezuelas by basing your economy on oil and then having it's market value drop 70 percent.

Feb 12, 2019
"Goals were achieved and the party is now over. The emphasis has shifted to interracial amalgamation with limited offspring, and integration of new immigrant ethnicities."

100% WRONG Otto!
The goal is to destroy the US economic system and bankrupt it with entitlements. From the ashes a new Socialist government will be formed.

Feb 12, 2019
Liar.. Liar.. Pants on fire...

"Illegal immigration achieves the same effects" - Otto

The economy is now global and both corporations and workers cross national boundaries pretty much freely.

Otto seeks to restrict the liberty of people to move while enhancing the liberty of Corporations to move out.

Libertarians promote unrestricted immigration and the abolition of minimum wage laws, because it promotes greater competition for labor, thereby lowering labor costs while at the same time removing artificial restrictions on how low those labor costs can go.

The result is higher corporate profits, which is what Libertarianism was created to produce.

Feb 12, 2019
LIar.. Liar.. Pants on fire...

"The goal is to destroy the US economic system and bankrupt it with entitlements." - MR166

The Republican goal to bankrupt America. The Republican plan even has a name.

"Starve the beast".

The idea is that once the Beast of Government has been destroyed, then government social programs will no longer be possible, and Corporations will rule by fiat.


Feb 12, 2019
V4 the Venezuelan economy collapsed due to price controls. Producers went bankrupt because they could not make a profit. Also oil monies were not re-invested and skilled workers were not hired after the oil companies were thrown out.

Feb 12, 2019
"LIar.. Liar.. Pants on fire..."

https://en.wikipe...strategy

V4 the Socialist heroes Cloward and Pivien wrote about the plan to bankrupt the US in 1966.

Feb 12, 2019
Quote from article, "Over half reported that their heath was either good or very good. In contrast, just 46 percent of a control group said the same."

This hardly surprising, work takes its toll, you are doing something most people don't really want to do, that is why you have to pay them to do it.

As for the little difference between the bum group and the control group, there are several things not mentioned in this article, did the ones going to work lose the entire basic income or was it reduced on a sliding scale? How many of the ones not going to work from both groups were working under the table making extra money and not paying taxes to support a UBI or into some sort of retirement system for their old age, etc.?

Also 2 years is hardly enough time to draw conclusions on this type of experiment, 10 years or even a generation might be needed.

Feb 12, 2019
What is not being addressed here is the damage done to the individuals receiving the free money. Once you remove ones ability and or need to fend for themselves you reduce them back to dependent children.

Feb 12, 2019
"All a manipulator need do is a simple two-step process: Give you what you crave, and then threaten to take it away. Every drug dealer in the world plays this game." - Harriet B. Braiker, Who's Pulling Your Strings? How to Break the Cycle of Manipulation and Regain Control of Your Life


Feb 12, 2019
Altright fairytails, raging at the "Welfare State"? Established by Black Republican Progressives.
during the late 1900's,

The plutocracy faced moral pressures to improve the lot of their workers in order to prevent any of the variations of Socialism from gaining power.

Funding Public Education & Public Health services would improve the quality of workers for running the evolving machinery. & healthier soldiers able to use modern weapons.

Re-educate non-British immigrants into loyal citizens.
By enforcing a common language & societal norms to conform to what the Wealthy thought was American Culture.

Then, oops! The rich forgot to breed in sufficient numbers to maintain GOP domination.
By the 1960's the old-line GOP was declining in influence. Desperate, they held their noses & accepted the dixiecrats into their tent. The Civil Rights Act was the last straw for the segregationists & the evangelists.
Who could not admit it mainly improved their lives!

Feb 12, 2019
100% WRONG Otto!
The goal is to destroy the US economic system and bankrupt it with entitlements. From the ashes a new Socialist government will be formed
There is a much bigger picture.

"A Time for Everything
3 There is a [PROPER] time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens...
9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful IN ITS TIME." ecc3

-Nothing is forever. There are People in this world who determine what happens and when, and where. Always at the Proper Time. Its why we're still here.

The People who wrote that book didnt care at all what happened to after you were dead. But they cared a great deal about what you thought and did while you were here.

Feb 12, 2019
"18 I also said to myself, "As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" ecc3

-And who cares?

Our Shepherds. Our Husbanders.

Ecclesiastes means 'for the priests'.

Feb 12, 2019
Another socialist experiment fails. How long, how many hundreds of years before socialists at least begin to understand human nature?

Feb 13, 2019
The health improvements came from not having to fill out forms each month. You get same amount of money today if your unemployed and just fill the forms every month. The basic income just got rid off all the extra bureaucracy so people felt better.

Work did not make the basic income smaller, it was the same for all.

The basic income was so small that it's difficult to live only with it. So no worries Thorium boy and others. It wont make people quit their jobs.

Here's two good papers if someones really interested: https://link.spri...52-0.pdf
https://political...-income/

Feb 13, 2019
The problem with the experiment was that it took too little time, and the observer effect made people behave nicely, i.e. not abuse the system.

People who are difficult to employ, those who lack education and skills, or who are living in areas with too few employment options and can't afford to move, take much longer to obtain education and skills and jobs.

The UBI is still small enough that the people are basically living hand-to-mouth and can't make large investments like buying a car and relocating to a different city. What they already have is a result of perhaps decades of saving whatever little money - you can't even invest because that counts as income and reduces the compensation.

It does not improve their jobs searching opportunities, although it does make it possible to sign up into a school which would previously cause one to drop off the dole and into a different aid mechanism which has even more onerous rules, and takes more than 2 years for the results.

Feb 13, 2019
The difficulty is that if you're on unemployment, the financial risk and inconvenience of moving for better job opportunities is greater than the meager payoff if you stay and apply for welfare. You're stuck wherever you are, and if the jobs go, you stay on the dole. This causes structural unemployment, because people are simply unwilling to do anything about it, because the temporary hardships are great and staying at least guarantees them some basic income.

So they sit where they are and complain about how miserable they are, because doing so gets them sympathies and other people start doing politics about how they should be given more free money. (In short: vote for me, I'll help the poor)

Feb 13, 2019
"Left to their own designs, the human tropical animal would sit around all day making babies."

The obvious conclusion form the experiment is that this hypothesis is false.

Quote from article, "Over half reported that their heath was either good or very good. In contrast, just 46 percent of a control group said the same."


This hardly surprising, work takes its toll, you are doing something most people don't really want to do, that is why you have to pay them to do it.

The people who got UBI were out of work before that as well. And afterwards at the same rate. So how did 'work take its toll' more one one group than the other?

Feb 13, 2019
did the ones going to work lose the entire basic income or was it reduced on a sliding scale?


From their FAQ website:

What if a participant found work during the experiment?

Anyone who was paid a basic income and who found work during the experiment could keep the basic income. Wages, salaries and income from self-employment did not affect the amount of the basic income. The basic income was also not affected by whether the recipient was working on a full-time or part-time basis.

https://www.kela....eriment-

How many of the ones not going to work from both groups were working under the table

If it's under the table no one knows. And note that those in the control group got the regular unemployment pay so the incentive to 'earn extra illegally' is the same either way.

Feb 13, 2019
if you're on unemployment, the financial risk and inconvenience of moving for better job opportunities is greater than the meager payoff if you stay and apply for welfare. You're stuck wherever you are
Well that's rubbish. People out of high school are in worse circumstances. Unemployment comp is a good chunk of change. And you're implying that people with jobs dont know how to save for a rainy day.

People can go on the internet, get interviews, get in their cars, get on the bus, WALK, and get a job.

During the great recession the govt extended UC for 2 years. People who couldn't find a job werent looking or didnt want to work.

But it is true, with this great new wave of automation, there will be lots of people with no prospect of ever working again, at least in their former careers. They can reeducate themselves. But the machines that replace them are going to have to be taxed at the same rates as they were for the same relative amount of work.

Feb 13, 2019
"Bill Gates: Certainly there will be taxes that relate to automation. Right now, the human worker who does, say, $50,000 worth of work in a factory, that income is taxed and you get income tax, social security tax, all those things. If a robot comes in to do the same thing, you'd think that we'd tax the robot at a similar level."

-otto must admit this had occurred to him maybe a decade ago. But it's an obvious development - machines can record and report exactly how much work they do and how much resources they consume doing it. We can circumvent owners and find out exactly what their real value is. And we can tax them automatically and immediately, thereby eliminating tons of life-sucking bureaucracy and corruption.

Revenues will soar.

Feb 13, 2019
UBI experiments are meaningless. Of course people benefit from free money. You do not need an experiment to know that. But true UBI is unsustainable. You cannot tax enough to give everyone a sufficient basic income. Such grandiose plans would have to be funded by printing (borrowing) money which on that scale leads to devaluation of currency and eventual collapse of the economy.

But we keep seeing these experiments so people can continue to promote a bankrupt proposition.

Feb 13, 2019
The obvious conclusion form the experiment is that this hypothesis is false.


That would be an unsupported conclusion.

Well that's rubbish. People out of high school are in worse circumstances. Unemployment comp is a good chunk of change. And you're implying that people with jobs dont know how to save for a rainy day.


Lots of people are entering the workforce already in debt - they essentially can't save until years and years later. People find some McJob for a couple years and then get downsized out, and they're still in debt as they drop onto unemployment benefits.

People can go on the internet, get interviews, get in their cars, get on the bus, WALK, and get a job.


I'd like to see you walk several hundred miles to another city and live on the street while you get that job, if you get it, if there are any. Back in the great recession, that's what people did. Today, you get paid for sitting on your ass where you are, so there's no point in trying

Feb 13, 2019
taxes that relate to automation


Why would you artificially inflate consumer prices? What would that accomplish? You'd tax the machines that make the goods, which then causes the owner of the machine to increase prices to pay the tax, which the consumers then pay with the UBI you give them. After all, nobody's going to build the machines if they can't make any profit with them.

All the money you collect, and a little bit more to pay for the system, goes to pay the money you collect in a loop. This accomplishes exactly nothing, except feed a bunch of bureaucrats who are now necessary to dispense the UBI.

Automation to get rid of jobs is more expensive in the end, because then you pay for both the machines AND the people who are now subsisting on welfare, where previously you just had to pay the people, who worked to sustain themselves. The only way you save anything is if you give the people less, make them consume less, i.e. drop their living standards.

Feb 13, 2019
Lots of people are entering the workforce already in debt - they essentially can't save until years and years later. People find some McJob for a couple years and then get downsized out, and they're still in debt as they drop onto unemployment benefits.

Here in Finland you don't need massives debts to get an education and you don't need to pay the student debt back until you have a job.

I'd like to see you walk several hundred miles to another city and live on the street while you get that job, if you get it, if there are any. Back in the great recession, that's what people did. Today, you get paid for sitting on your ass where you are, so there's no point in trying

That's why one should really think if you want to invest in your own house or if you just live on rent. Easy to switch to a new place if you get a job somewhere else.

Feb 13, 2019
Eikka made a good point
"... The only way you save anything is if you give the people less, make them consume less, i.e. drop their living standards. ..."

This entire controversy comes done to consumption. As raw materials become scarce & more expensive to attain & process.

As it becomes more & more difficult to contain the consequences of Anthropospecific Augmentation to Climate Change.
As globally, the majority of the Human Race is voting with their feet, to find accommodations near the coastlines of the Oceans & Great Lakes.

I would advocate a conservative set of programs.
What minimal Living Standards are acceptable to you?

Fund major research into making technology & consumable goods more efficient.
Wasting less resources & leaving less pollution.

Do you actually need the latest toy or gimcrack?
Or do you just crave possessing it? Until you "crave" something else.
That is a personal question of just how mature are you?

Feb 13, 2019
I'd like to see you walk several hundred miles to another city and live on the street while you get that job, if you get it, if there are any. Back in the great recession, that's what people did
I suspect this is anecdotal.
Today, you get paid for sitting on your ass where you are, so there's no point in trying
Well these people dont
https://youtu.be/04Z3Rd0rD_I

-But aoc would like to pay them for doing just that.

Feb 22, 2019
I suspect this is anecdotal.


They also lived in tent towns near places that would employ them, until they could afford to build some sort of hovel. This is recorded history.

What minimal Living Standards are acceptable to you?


The real question is, who do you give the authority to decide and enforce that? That party will obviously grant themselves everything while you get the "bare essentials".

Feb 22, 2019
https://placesjou...loaded=1

after the Civil War, with the expansion of the national rail system and the new markets it opened up, did cities witness the emergence of large squatter camps on their outskirts — so-called tramp colonies or jungles. 3 Often located near train stations or along roads, many jungles became deeply rooted, serving as way stations for a new proletariat of migratory and seasonal workers.


Basically, before the New Deal, people moved with the jobs and took transient residence in shanty towns as the cheapest option available, one step up from sleeping in jail. After the expansion of welfare, people who found themselves unemployed started to stay put in whatever poor neighborhood they happened to reside, because staying was no longer a question of starvation due to state handouts - and that had the side effect of causing systemic unemployment the more the more welfare is given.

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