Black hole 'donuts' are actually 'fountains'

November 30, 2018, National Astronomical Observatory of Japan
ALMA image of the gas around the supermassive black hole in the center of the Circinus Galaxy. The distributions of CO molecular gas and C atomic gas are shown in orange and cyan, respectively. Credit: ALMA (ESO/NAOJ/NRAO), Izumi et al.

Based on computer simulations and new observations from the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA), researchers have found that the rings of gas surrounding active supermassive black holes are not simple donut shapes. Instead, gas expelled from the center interacts with infalling gas to create a dynamic circulation pattern, similar to a water fountain in a city park.

Most galaxies host a supermassive black hole, millions or billions of times as heavy as the Sun, in their centers. Some of these black holes swallow material quite actively. But astronomers have believed that rather than falling directly into the black hole, matter instead builds up around the active black hole forming a donut structure.

Takuma Izumi, a researcher at the National Astronomical Observatory of Japan (NAOJ), led a team of astronomers that used ALMA to observe the in the Circinus Galaxy located 14 million light-years away from the Earth in the direction of the constellation Circinus. The team then compared their observations to a computer simulation of gas falling towards a black hole made with the Cray XC30 ATERUI supercomputer operated by NAOJ. This comparison revealed that the presumptive "donut" is not actually a rigid structure, but instead a complex collection of highly dynamic gaseous components. First, cold molecular gas falling towards the black hole forms a disk near the plane of rotation. As it approaches the black hole, this gas is heated until the molecules break down into the component atoms and ions. Some of these atoms are then expelled above and below the disk, rather than being absorbed by the black hole. This hot atomic gas falls back onto the disk creating a turbulent three dimensional structure. These three components circulate continuously, similar to a water fountain in a city park.

Artist’s impression of the gas motion around the supermassive black hole in the center of the Circinus Galaxy. The three gaseous components form the long-theorized “donut” structure: (1) a disk of infalling dense cold molecular gas, (2) outflowing hot atomic gas, and (3) gas returning to the disk. Credit: NAOJ
"Previous theoretical models set a priori assumptions of rigid donuts," explains Keiichi Wada, a theoretician at Kagoshima University in Japan, who lead the simulation study and is a member of the research team. "Rather than starting from assumptions, our simulation started from the physical equations and showed for the first time that the gas circulation naturally forms a donut. Our can also explain various observational features of the system."

"By investigating the motion and distribution of both the cold molecular gas and warm atomic gas with ALMA, we demonstrated the origin of the so-called 'donut' structure around active ," said Izumi. "Based on this discovery, we need to rewrite the astronomy textbooks."

Cross section of the gas around a supermassive black hole simulated with NAOJ’s supercomputer ATERUI. The different colors represent the density of the gas, and the arrows show the motion of the gas. It clearly shows the three gaseous components forming the “donut” structure. Credit: Wada et al.

Explore further: Rotating gaseous donut around an active supermassive black hole

More information: Takuma Izumi et al. Circumnuclear Multiphase Gas in the Circinus Galaxy. II. The Molecular and Atomic Obscuring Structures Revealed with ALMA, The Astrophysical Journal (2018). DOI: 10.3847/1538-4357/aae20b

Related Stories

Galaxy-scale fountain seen in full glory

November 6, 2018

A billion light-years from Earth lies one of the universe's most massive structures, a giant elliptical galaxy surrounded by a sprawling cluster of other galaxies known as Abell 2597. At the core of the central galaxy, a ...

Oxymoronic black hole RGG 118 provides clues to growth

August 12, 2015

Astronomers using NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory and the 6.5-meter Clay Telescope in Chile have identified the smallest supermassive black hole ever detected in the center of a galaxy, as described in our latest press release. ...

Black hole hidden within its own exhaust

September 15, 2016

Supermassive black holes, millions to billions of times the mass of our Sun, are found at the centers of galaxies. Many of these galactic behemoths are hidden within a thick doughnut-shape ring of dust and gas known as a ...

Recommended for you

The epoch of planet formation, times twenty

December 12, 2018

Astronomers have cataloged nearly 4,000 exoplanets in orbit around distant stars. Though the discovery of these newfound worlds has taught us much, there is still a great deal we do not know about the birth of planets and ...

Periodic radio signal detected from the blazar J1043+2408

December 12, 2018

Using Owens Valley Radio Observatory (OVRO), astronomers have detected a periodic signal in the radio light curve of the blazar J1043+2408, which could be helpful in improving our understanding about the nature of blazars ...

Juno mission halfway to Jupiter science

December 12, 2018

On Dec. 21, at 8:49:48 a.m. PST (11:49:48 a.m. EST) NASA's Juno spacecraft will be 3,140 miles (5,053 kilometers) above Jupiter's cloud tops and hurtling by at a healthy clip of 128,802 mph (207,287 kilometers per hour). ...

Rosetta witnesses birth of baby bow shock around comet

December 12, 2018

A new study reveals that, contrary to first impressions, Rosetta did detect signs of an infant bow shock at the comet it explored for two years – the first ever seen forming anywhere in the solar system.

111 comments

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

fourinfinities
3.3 / 5 (7) Nov 30, 2018
"...the gas circulation naturally forms a donut." Because God likes donuts...
Tuxford
2 / 5 (15) Nov 30, 2018
"Rather than starting from assumptions, our simulation started from the physical equations and showed for the first time that the gas circulation naturally forms a donut. Our simulation can also explain various observational features of the system."

Merger maniacs might learn something if they too dropped their assumptions, and instead started from prevalent observational evidence. But then, the fairy tale must be protected at all costs.
Nik_2213
5 / 5 (15) Nov 30, 2018
#Tux, you know not of what you speak. Theories evolve as data accumulates. Always, always watch for anything that may falsify any part of current paradigm, and test it with careful curiosity.

By the way, finding such anomalies, whispering, 'Hmm ? That's odd...' is one of the joys of Real Science.
rrwillsj
3.2 / 5 (9) Nov 30, 2018
Yeah, just as I expected. The woonuts are going looney tunes over "doughnuts" and "fountains".

As i repeat myself. "Poor descriptive word choices by the originating scientists? Result in triggering off the perpetually dotaged."

One would hope they would eventually outgrow their adolescent fixation on mixing shit into their bowl of cereal? But, there you are...

And byethebye the way. Whether you see "doughnuts" or "fountains" or "castles-in-the-sky" would depend on the direction, your vantage point. Of your perspective in relationship of the observed galaxy's tilt too you.

Gosh, that sounds downright "Relativistic"!
Steelwolf
2.4 / 5 (10) Nov 30, 2018
This most certainly sets up the presumption that magnetism is a major force when talking about BH or Stellar formation donut-forms. Looking at the flow directions, as well as the rotational vectors, is going to lead to plenty of turbulence on small scales which will increase the magnetism along these flow lines. We see the effect in the collimated jet streams of 'atomic gas, which is plasma and is conductive, forming a massive dynamo effect that spans solar systems, at one scale iteration, and galaxies, at a larger iteration.

Given the materials, temperatures, movement and scales the magnetism Must be there and IS doing the things I have described for over a decade here, to the naysayer's discontent and incontinence.

And given the galactic medium, ISM, IS a plasma, and IS in motion, it IS conductive and Does carry the galactic magnetic field as far as it is, by physics, allowed to. Galactic scale would certainly affect rotation curve of magnetic stars imbedded in this gas
jonesdave
3.3 / 5 (14) Nov 30, 2018
Galactic scale would certainly affect rotation curve of magnetic stars imbedded in this gas


No, it wouldn't. And what the hell are 'magnetic stars'?
Steelwolf
3.1 / 5 (9) Nov 30, 2018
Most stars have been found to be magnetic, size restraints of posts cost me a more full explanation. Many of these stars have trillions of Gauss strength (certain magnetars checked) and many are much stronger than Sol's 2T or so, avg. And even though it may seem like a small amount, just as with hydraulics, where a small amount of mass in a small area can raise a much larger mass, the combined magnetic strength of the individual stars, along with the Galactic Mean Field, given the known densities of dust and gas, so far, indicate that magnetism has to be strongly involved with the rotational curve and formation of the galaxy and star forming areas themselves over the timescales of billions of years involved. Certainly not saying magnetism does it all, but like with others here who understand it is a more balanced and nuanced thing with magnetism having larger effect at certain scales than previously thought.

That IS one reason they have to re-write the textbooks.
jonesdave
3 / 5 (12) Nov 30, 2018
^^^^^Word salad. Let's see the maths.
jonesdave
3.3 / 5 (12) Nov 30, 2018
Let's see; where is this simulation saying the strong magnetic field will be? Around a SMBH. So, we observe the orbits of the stars around our own SMBH. Are they fully described by Newton and Einstein? Yes they are. Therefore, the orbits are purely gravitational. Much weaker fields out in the galaxy therefore cannot possibly influence stellar galactic orbits.
jonesdave
3.5 / 5 (13) Nov 30, 2018
Certainly not saying magnetism does it all,


Correct. Maybe 1 part in 10^17th?

http://www.astro....asma.txt
Phyllis Harmonic
4 / 5 (8) Nov 30, 2018
Galactic scale would certainly affect rotation curve of magnetic stars imbedded in this gas


No, it wouldn't. And what the hell are 'magnetic stars'?

He may be referring to the 28 (found so far) magnetars.

"When in a supernova, a star collapses to a neutron star, and its magnetic field increases dramatically in strength. Halving a linear dimension increases the magnetic field fourfold. Duncan and Thompson calculated that when the spin, temperature and magnetic field of a newly formed neutron star falls into the right ranges, a dynamo mechanism could act, converting heat and rotational energy into magnetic energy and increasing the magnetic field, normally an already enormous 108 teslas, to more than 10^11 teslas (or 10^15 gauss). The result is a magnetar. It is estimated that about one in ten supernova explosions results in a magnetar rather than a more standard neutron star or pulsar."

https://en.wikipe...Magnetar
jonesdave
3.3 / 5 (14) Nov 30, 2018
Certainly not saying magnetism does it all,


Correct. Maybe 1 part in 10^17th?

http://www.astro....asma.txt


Or maybe 1 part in 10^22nd?

http://www.intern...count=54

Depends how you do the calculation, I guess. Either way, you are not moving stars with magnetic fields.
jonesdave
3.3 / 5 (14) Nov 30, 2018
Galactic scale would certainly affect rotation curve of magnetic stars imbedded in this gas


No, it wouldn't. And what the hell are 'magnetic stars'?

He may be referring to the 28 (found so far) magnetars.

https://en.wikipe...Magnetar


Ahhh, OK, cheers. Strange that all the stars, regardless of size or charge seem to be on the same, flat rotation curve! Another argument against EM woo being the cause, I'd say. Not that we really needed one.
Steelwolf
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 30, 2018
jd, what are you going to do when an article comes out that flat states the whole DM thing is no longer needed since they have found all the mass required, and that it is their magnetic fields combined which had fooled them into thinking it was all gravitational, that and them not having the tools to be able to detect the magnetic fields at these distances before.

Now they are getting the tools, and the information is coming in, and the Only thing that is going to match the needed parameters IS going to be Magnetism.

10 years ago the petty argument from here was that such large magnetic fields could not exist in space, that has been proven utterly wrong as they stretch over megaparsecs.

New: https://phys.org/...tar.html

And poor jd's head just POP's everytime he sees an intelligent, non-"PURE MAINSTREAM SCIENCE" post, and goes instantly incontinent.

I am waiting for the final pop when undeniable proof sets in, and he melts.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
1.9 / 5 (9) Nov 30, 2018
"...the gas circulation naturally forms a donut." Because God likes donuts...

says fourinfinities

Yes indeed. And God is not only creative in His Laws of Nature and Laws of Thermodynamics, but has great artistic and business acumen. It appears that certain geometrical forms are favored by the Creator....and, He likes donuts.
:)
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 30, 2018
@steel
jd, what are you going to do when an article comes out that flat states the whole DM thing is no longer needed since they have found all the mass required, and that it is their magnetic fields combined which had fooled them into thinking it was all gravitational, that and them not having the tools to be able to detect the magnetic fields at these distances before.
how about a challenge with a finite time limit?

say... 10 years?

you crowdfund the eu prediction above - must be magnetic and replace DM

JD (or someone) to crowdfund the opposition based upon known science and predictions proving it's *not* magnetic

During the ten years, all monies are put in long-term CD's or something similar to allow some of the cash to grow

winner takes all and divides it up between the supporters of the crowdfund based upon what they put in

*literally* put your money where your mouth is, eh?
Da Schneib
3.5 / 5 (8) Nov 30, 2018
Errrr, I think it lost something in translation.

Not "fountains." "A fountain." In other words, mass infalls around the equator from the accretion disk, and some of it spews back out from higher latitudes then rejoins the accretion disk.

Two interesting things:
1. This is a new mechanism. It might not be hyperbole to say that astrophysics textbooks will require revisions.
2. It would be very interesting to know if this mechanism is present in quasars with large jet structures.
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (8) Nov 30, 2018
Incidentally, this isn't the kind of fountain that shoots water up into the air. The Japanese don't think that's very tasteful. But you'd have to actually know something about Japanese culture to know that.

And if you're going to bring jebus into it, looks like jebus likes accretion disks. And stars. And galaxies. And dark matter.
jonesdave
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 01, 2018
jd, what are you going to do when an article comes out that flat states the whole DM thing is no longer needed since they have found all the mass required, and that it is their magnetic fields combined which had fooled them into thinking it was all gravitational, that and them not having the tools to be able to detect the magnetic fields at these distances before.


Laugh. Because there is no way to move a star with a magnetic field, you moron. Learn some science, woo boy.
jonesdave
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 01, 2018
I am waiting for the final pop when undeniable proof sets in, and he melts.


Given that you need an increase in the field strength of a minimum of 10^17 times, that is not going to happen, is it, you loon? Go play with the idiots at Thunderdolts, where your fairy stories might gain some traction. You are just making yourself look like a tit here.
rrwillsj
3.5 / 5 (8) Dec 01, 2018
For all those woodolts, aethernuts & theosophists advocating magnetic magic?

Since their claims are based on the theology of primitive savages. tThat there was a created world that some sort of deity or another lighted up with the Sun & Moon & Stars.

So. even the stuporstitious base of EU woohooey admits that the matter of material mass & the Gravitational Constant existed before there was the EM phenomena of Light.

In rational terms, the material existence of Gravity produces the phenomena of Electro-Magnetism.

Denying the Universal power of Gravity? Claiming that Electro-Magnetism is dominant? Is a ridiculous denial of observed facts.

This is why the woomerchants, for all their bluster. For all the poorly rewritten material plagiarized from the works of real scientists. For all the speculations stolen from other peoples ideas.

The woohucksters have never produced an original idea or working technology despite their outlandish claims!
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.5 / 5 (8) Dec 01, 2018
Poor poor rrwilliejoe - for some strange reason is still thinking there are some who are denying the "universal power" of gravity. Nobody is denying it, rrwilliejoe. It's all in your mind.
Gravity requires the presence of Matter - otherwise known as MASS in order for gravity to make known its own presence and strength - at whatever level that strength may be. And once gravity is at work with Mass, other phenomena such as EM can take over. It is seen happening on Earth.
But what if there is no Mass available? Gravity is at a loss and can't work its magick - whereby the power of Electromagnetism makes itself known by producing magnetic fields that connect planetary bodies and Stars for a brief amount of time. Why does this happen? Very well, I shall tell you. EM is a conduit for information.
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (9) Dec 01, 2018
YEC @SEU denies gravity. It denies the SMBH at the galactic center of the Milky Way.
torbjorn_b_g_larsson
3.8 / 5 (10) Dec 02, 2018
This is cool, and remind of the emerging picture of galaxy gas recirculation. Though I dislike the authors use of the term "assumptions" since it was only a suggested (constrained) solution.

Merger maniacs might learn something if they too dropped their assumptions, and instead started from prevalent observational evidence.


Relevance? (And what mergers?)

torbjorn_b_g_larsson
3.9 / 5 (11) Dec 02, 2018
This most certainly sets up the presumption that magnetism is a major force when talking about BH or Stellar formation donut-forms.


So you were not interested in the science? Since the paper actively reject such ideas by relying solely on radiative transfer in gas dynamical models.

what are you going to do when an article comes out that flat states the whole DM thing is no longer needed


Responding to this cuts to the chase, since your discussion of magnetism and stars is erroneous and lead nowhere anyway:

So you are jumping from discussion the physics of SMBH to the uncorrelated rotation curves of galaxies. To replace DM after the 3d data release of Planck summarized cosmological observations and showed that DM *is* needed to explain cosmology on GR base, you would have to publish not an article but replace the last century of general physics in toto.

But on the insufficiently limited subject of galaxies - since DM is on all scales - DM is now best physics.
rrwillsj
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 02, 2018
wow segue, you're really desperately grubbing at the bottom of the barrel there. Ain'tcha?

Repeating hogwash claims that invisible bolts of magically powered EM predominate between Planetary scale, Stellar scale & Cosmic scale objects is simply unproven & unprovable.

Not a single one of you EU/ aether/ plasma/ flying saucer/ flat earther/ theosophist spiritualists/ perpetual motion creationists/ racist eugenics/ thunder mugs of the gods, gaggle of cultist varieties. Have ever contributed a single novel concept or any working technology.
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (6) Dec 02, 2018
But what if there is no Mass available? Gravity is at a loss and can't work its magick - whereby the power of Electromagnetism makes itself known by producing magnetic fields that connect planetary bodies and Stars for a brief amount of time.
This is a word salad. First you say there's no mass available, then you say there are planetary bodies and stars, both of which have dense mass.

Make up your mind.
Ojorf
3 / 5 (8) Dec 03, 2018
Steelwolf:
And poor jd's head just POP's everytime he sees an intelligent, non-"PURE MAINSTREAM SCIENCE" post, and goes instantly incontinent.

I am waiting for the final pop when undeniable proof sets in, and he melts.


A science post, from you?
How can we believe anything you say?
How do we know you are not just saying everything the MIB tell you to?
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.7 / 5 (7) Dec 03, 2018
Steelwolf:
And poor jd's head just POP's everytime he sees an intelligent, non-"PURE MAINSTREAM SCIENCE" post, and goes instantly incontinent.

I am waiting for the final pop when undeniable proof sets in, and he melts.


A science post, from you?
How can we believe anything you say?
How do we know you are not just saying everything the MIB tell you to?
says ojorf

Cultural cognition seems to be the new "in' thing with you and your cultists, ojorf. You appear to be no longer an independent "free thinker" like me and Steelwolf. Or, perhaps you have never been a Free Thinker ever, since you have taken up the "We" that indicates and proves that you are, and have been, a part of the evil constituents (led by jd, DS, CS, RNP, and some others who may be lurking at the moment) that is consuming this science website, and has turned physorg into a "free-for-all" constant bickering and backbiting that is the hallmark activities of CS, DS, jd and now YOU.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.7 / 5 (7) Dec 03, 2018
-contd-
I am beginning to suspect that the evil cultists who frequent this website (led by CS, DS, jd mainly) to post their visceral hatred of any new ideas that run counter, even slightly, against the status quo of what scientists believe to be true, are in the throes of attempting to take over the whole physorg website to make it their private domain - where nobody will be allowed to post their comments unless he or she is an acquaintance, friend, buttbuddy, family member, or just someone who is proven to agree with the evil cultists and their view of what can and cannot be said in the forums.
It is quite clear and apparent that the evil cultists are attempting a coup, if at all possible, to show their strength and unity as a cultural clique of an evil dictatorship.
The website owners may have become overwhelmed by the evil cult and have lost control of their own website in so many ways. And it is possible that the website owners may have agreed to this evil takeover.
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (6) Dec 03, 2018
Wow, YEC troll plays the conspiracy theory card.

Are you for real? What a nutjob.
Ojorf
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 03, 2018
SEU, If by Free Thinker you mean Totally-Batshit-Crazy, then I agree with you.
Tell me:

-If you have seen a wormhole with your own eyes then ...
-If you think 2 different factions of extraterrestrial life forms are vying for control of Earth" then ...
-If you talk to aliens telepathically then ...
-If you think there are aliens living amongst humans who are disguised as full humans then ...
-If the MIB came around to warn you to NEVER tell what you know then ...
-If the MIB were very nasty, pushy, aggressive and projected a mental fog, which you are able to push away, to their surprise, and drive them off then ...

(a) you are correct*
(b) you are a Free Thinker**
(c) you are Totally-Batshit-Crazy
(d) all of the above

*I'm using the alternative meaning of correct, 'absolutely wrong'
**Free Thinker meaning T-B-C
Da Schneib
3 / 5 (6) Dec 03, 2018
Maybe the Joooooooozzzzz are helping. And the Trilateral Commission.

And the FBI and CIA. And the Mujaheddin. And the Masons.
RNP
3.7 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2018
@Surveillance_Egg_Unit
You appear to be no longer an independent "free thinker" like me and Steelwolf.

Believing things that are disproved by observation and then refusing to consider that observational evidence does not make you a free thinker.....It makes you ill informed and just plain wrong.

Then accusing the people who require EVIDENCE for your ideas of being "evil" shows just how distorted your "free thinking" has become.
rrwillsj
3 / 5 (6) Dec 03, 2018
That segue & all the other nutjob cultists are accusing anyone else of not accepting new ideas?

Is a travesty of deliberate dishonesty!
On the same level of sleight-of-hand tableknocking to a tune of floating tambourines & brass horns.

A typical ploy by the modern clown posse of plagiarists who haven't produced a single original idea since their eighteenth century predecessors of frauds, quacks & bunco artists.
jonesdave
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 03, 2018
(led by jd, DS, CS, RNP, and some others who may be lurking at the moment) that is consuming this science website, and has turned physorg into a "free-for-all" constant bickering and backbiting that is the hallmark activities of CS, DS, jd and now YOU.


No, it is scientifically illiterate idiots and cranks that have turned this place into the sh!tfest that it has become. You haven't got a clue.

Captain Stumpy
3.4 / 5 (5) Dec 03, 2018
@idiot eggy
You appear to be no longer an independent "free thinker" like me and Steelwolf
when you enter into a scientific conversation with preconceived notions (like: eu, seeing "wormholes", aliens, telepathy) and attempt to justify why any evidence somehow proves [x] notion, then that is evidence of a bias

that doesn't make you a "free thinker" any more than wearing a red shirt makes you a fire truck

your definition of "free thinker" seems to be rooted in the drug-influenced 60's philosophy of accepting anything from anyone as being legitimate, truth and factual

That is not scientific, nor is it how facts are established

it is also considered rude, improper, impolite as well as trolling to continue to spew pseudoscience, religion or blatantly false claims in a science discourse

you're the one here seeking attention, validation and social acceptance, not the rest of us

If you had learned to read, you would know this already
granville583762
5 / 5 (3) Dec 03, 2018
The language of independent free thinking eschewed by individuals
as jonesdave in his unique style
No, it is scientifically illiterate idiots and cranks that have turned this place into the sh!tfest that it has become you haven't got a clue he establishes base lines in the sand
then there is Ojorf
you are correct
you are a Free Thinker
you are Totally Batshit Crazy
all of the above
and if the bats are crazily batting there are the idiosyncrasies of Da Shneib
errrr I think it lost something in translation.
not fountains a fountain In other words, mass infalls around the equator from the accretion disk and some of it spews back out from higher latitudes then rejoins the accretion disk.
this is a new mechanism. It might not be hyperbole to say that astrophysics textbooks will require revisions.
It would be very interesting to know if this mechanism is present in quasars with large jet structure
In context out of context still Totally Bat Crazy
granville583762
5 / 5 (3) Dec 03, 2018
Its debatable which is more depressing
free thinking
or the language of free thinking
how can you have as JD proposes
an illiterate idiot
and
as JD waxes lyrical
illiterate idiots and cranks that have turned this place into the sh!tfest that it has become
is this statement actual exist in an English dictionary
as in the
the sh!tfest that it has become
as the word
sh!tfest
does not
even exist
when free thinkers were given free reign
it was taken for granted
it did not mean literally
in every
word
that does not even exist
but then in the
twisted
warped
way
JD
in his mind
thinks freely
is in how deep
to the depths
of Beelzebub can he sink
before this three thinking
of
illiterate idiots and cranks that have turned this place into the sh!tfest that it has become
as it is only
JD that has
turned this place into the sh!tfest that it has become
because
when JD
is on sabbatical
this place by comparison
Is liketh a breath of fresh air
IwinUlose
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 03, 2018
Maybe the Joooooooozzzzz are helping. And the Trilateral Commission.

And the FBI and CIA. And the Mujaheddin. And the Masons.


I could understand Tupac, 'Machiavelli' (stated as a 'thing', not an author), the Illuminati, Sesame Street, etc. Juice, though, hasn't been much of a worry since the that thing in the 90's. I think he just mostly wants to sell memorabilia to pay his rent these days.
cantdrive85
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 03, 2018
The "donut" being a plasmoid and the resultant jets are just what one should expect given, if one understands real plasma physics.
jonesdave
4 / 5 (8) Dec 03, 2018
The "donut" being a plasmoid and the resultant jets are just what one should expect given, if one understands real plasma physics.


Lol. You certainly don't! And not a single plasma physicist is agreeing with you.
cantdrive85
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 03, 2018
Lol. You certainly don't! And not a single plasma physicist is agreeing with you.

Certainly none of the plasma ignoramuses you follow. But alas, I did qualify the statement by suggesting real plasma physics be considered ILO the pseudoscientific claptrap you believe.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 03, 2018
SEU, If by Free Thinker you mean Totally-Batshit-Crazy, then I agree with you.
Tell me: WHAT? SINCE WHEN ARE FREE THINKERS BAT-SHIT CRAZY? MY guess is that you have no idea what it is to be a Free Thinker and it is all foreign to you. It has nothing to with Liberalism or Socialism, by the way.

-If you have seen a wormhole with your own eyes then ...YES
-If you think 2 different factions of extraterrestrial life forms are vying for control of Earth" then ...YES
-If you talk to aliens telepathically then ...THEY ARE TELEPATHS
-If you think there are aliens living amongst humans who are disguised as full humans then ...YES
-If the MIB came around to warn you to NEVER tell what you know then ... NEVER HAPPENED
-If the MIB were very nasty, pushy, aggressive and projected a mental fog, which you are able to push away, to their surprise, and drive them off then ...HAS NEVER HAPPENED
says ojorf

Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 03, 2018
That segue & all the other nutjob cultists are accusing anyone else of not accepting new ideas?

Is a travesty of deliberate dishonesty!
On the same level of sleight-of-hand tableknocking to a tune of floating tambourines & brass horns.

A typical ploy by the modern clown posse of plagiarists who haven't produced a single original idea since their eighteenth century predecessors of frauds, quacks & bunco artists.

says rrwilliejoe

Did you have a Happy Hanukkah, williejoe? Did you rub your mezuzah for good luck lately? Did it feel good, by the way? Will you be taking a plane trip to Tel Aviv for the holidays?
LOL
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 03, 2018
LOL Let me try that again ->>
@ojorf
-If you have seen a wormhole with your own eyes then ... YES They are quite common. But your human eyes won't see them.

-If you think 2 different factions of extraterrestrial life forms are vying for control of Earth" then ...YES of course. Earth is prime real estate that is wasted on the human primate monkeys.

-If you talk to aliens telepathically then ...THEY ARE TELEPATHS

-If you think there are aliens living amongst humans who are disguised as full humans then ...WHY NOT? Did you really think that they would announce their presence to inform you first to give you warning? Really?

-If the MIB came around to warn you to NEVER tell what you know then ... HASN'T HAPPENED

-If the MIB were very nasty, pushy, aggressive and projected a mental fog, which you are able to push away, to their surprise, and drive them off then ...STILL HASN'T HAPPENED. I AM NOT SUSCEPTIBLE TO MENTAL FOGS AS YOU ARE.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2 / 5 (4) Dec 03, 2018
@granville
Yes indeed - the non-Free Thinkers in this website such as jd, CS, DS and a few others (you know them by their ways and means) are on the side of the status quo of "restrictive science" - the more restrictions, the better they like it. To these people, there is no such thing as a "free thinking policy" wrt the best ideas that may further science up the road to greater knowledge. These people believe that when someone who has a possibly better idea, that person has to be put down like a mad dog forthwith - and dispatched to the hinterlands - or else he or she may contaminate the comments section of a science website with some newfangled ideas that will surely harm the status quo in which they all live under.

There is a big, dark cloud hanging over this science website, granville - and as long as the aforesaid idiots hover over every vestige of what is being said in these forums, nothing will ever change. Restrictions abound - no new ideas or possibilities allowed
jonesdave
3.7 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2018
There is a big, dark cloud hanging over this science website, granville - and as long as the aforesaid idiots hover over every vestige of what is being said in these forums, nothing will ever change. Restrictions abound - no new ideas or possibilities allowed


Deluded f***wit! As if science gives a toss about anything written in a place like this! By scientifically illiterate cranks such as himself! Go post it on a physics forum, you cretin. Better still, write it up and submit it to a decent science journal. Tosser.

Ojorf
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
SEU:
LOL Let me try that again ->>
...YES They are quite common. But your human eyes won't see them.
...YES of course. Earth is prime real estate that is wasted on the human primate monkeys.
...THEY ARE TELEPATHS
...


So it's (d) all of the above.

It was your friend Steelwolf that had the altercations with the MIB and the mental fog, all of the above for him as well.
Two nuts in a pod.

Steelwolf
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2018
Some projectionism going on as I never said anything about MIB's or mental fog.

Maybe that is stuff that YOU ran into Ojorf, and were told to keep quiet, since you seem to know more about that kind of MIB/brain fog encounter than I do. Hit with the forget beam eh?

Just more evidence for the investigation.
Da Schneib
4 / 5 (4) Dec 04, 2018
THEY ARE TELEPATHS
Somebody forgot their meds.

Time for the mute button.
Ojorf
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2018
Steelwolf:
Some projectionism going on as I never said anything about MIB's or mental fog.

Maybe that is stuff that YOU ran into Ojorf, and were told to keep quiet, since you seem to know more about that kind of MIB/brain fog encounter than I do. Hit with the forget beam eh?

Just more evidence for the investigation.


More evidence for (d) all of the above.

Steelwolf:
And I did have the MIB type come and talk to me as well, ordering me to Never repeat what I had seen on such and such night as specified time. They were very nasty, pushy, aggressive and projected a mental fog, which I was able to push away, to their surprise. They left quickly after giving their message.


Read more here: https://phys.org/...ole.html

LOL
RNP
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2018
@Ojorf
Thank you. It is always amusing to see them lose track of their lies and expose themselves.
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
Consider the distinct possibility that these may not be lies. They may be actual psychotic delusions.
RNP
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2018
@Da Schneib

Consider the distinct possibility that these may not be lies. They may be actual psychotic delusions

But why then would he deny them?

Are we sure that SEU and Steelwolf aren't one and the same person? Perhaps he confused his personae.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
@RNP
@Ojorf
Thank you. It is always amusing to see them lose track of their lies and expose themselves.
what's even more astonishing is that he absolutely knew it would pop up again
Already a Chief Detractor popping up likely to use my very words against me.
the thing is: no one is using his words against him

His words are his own and they're indicative of the problems with the so-called "free thinkers" who don't comprehend what science is or why it's more effective at proving things than, say, their telepathic links to cats (or individuals)

and then there is this gem
Some projectionism going on as I never said anything about MIB's or mental fog
and yet, if you look at the thread, he clearly comments about them both

this type of behaviour is indicative of a martyr-victim complex, so does he just need attention or is there something more going on given the demonstrated descent into a delusion that seems so apparent to everyone else?
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
If you're referring to Steel, it's entirely possible that he's forgotten what he said. I've long had him on ignore. I don't mind exposing fools, particularly ones with religious delusions, but I'm not into pulling the wings off flies.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
@RNP - didn't realise you had a reply
sorry
But why then would he deny them?
wiki says it best- "it either feeds a psychological need, or a desire to avoid responsibility"

the martyr is often perceived as being "singled out for persecution because of exceptional ability or integrity"
Are we sure that SEU and Steelwolf aren't one and the same person? Perhaps he confused his personae
relatively sure, IMHO

eggy can't grasp simple concepts in science and is a more fervent creationist and religious fanatic whereas steel can sometimes grasp the science when prodded (or the medications are working - there is that to consider)

also note: eggy and steel have somewhat different syntax and colloquialisms so if they're the same person then they would have to have MPD, which is very, very rare

of course, we can't rule out sock manipulation from a group, but it's too consistent for a group, IMHO
RNP
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
@Captain Stumpy
OK. I see what you are saying. You are right. I fired the thought off without actually thinking about it..
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
I was reaching for a concept and I have it. @SEU's affect and @Steel's lack the same je ne sais quoi. If they're sockpuppets, a very high degree of proficiency at producing different types of personality is indicated, beyond the effort any troll would bother with, most likely. And @Steel has been here a long time, and @SEU has not.
Da Schneib
4.2 / 5 (5) Dec 04, 2018
@SEU, there are not telepathic aliens posting on science sites on the Internet. If you are not already receiving help you should get some. Having watched a family member experience psychosis, complete with papering the windows with aluminum foil, I have to tell you that your symptoms are quite clear, and very disturbing. This will be the last time I address you; my only further observation is that after you share your problems with a professional, take whatever they give you. You are now on permanent ignore. I am, as I said above, willing to mock people who are merely deluded by their upbringing or choose to accept that which they cannot prove through laziness, or inertia, or because they want to be disruptors; I am not at all comfortable mocking people who have serious mental problems. It's not funny. Good bye.
RNP
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 04, 2018
@Da Schneib
I am following you and suggest that all other rational posters do the same.
Da Schneib
4 / 5 (4) Dec 04, 2018
I could tell a long sad story but choose to keep privacy. Suffice it to say that I have seen someone die from the things they did when they were off their medication. It is not funny, any more than a broken bone.

I don't mind being nasty to someone who is otherwise whole; but when I see psychotic ideation, I am out. I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, and I cannot help them. Nor would I mock someone with a broken bone.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@RNP
You are right. I fired the thought off without actually thinking about it
steel may well be mentally disturbed

eggy, however, is not mentally disturbed so much as a blatant troll and has rebirthed himself in multiple socks on this site

I've been doing some research, especially on some of eggy's beliefs quoted in various threads, and there is a list of similarities to several known trolls from PO, and considering some of his ideological similarities to posters like baudrunner and linguistic similarities to posters like returners, baudrunner, obama_socks et al, I need to spend more time looking around at his posts, but I've been a mite busy with stuff lately

steel seems to have legit problems
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@CS, you imply that @SEU is trolling people with mental problems, which I find even more disturbing. I would say we don't need someone doing that here. I think the mods should step in as they did with @Zephyr and make sure nasty stuff like that doesn't happen, but I kinda doubt they will.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
Some projectionism going on as I never said anything about MIB's or mental fog.

Maybe that is stuff that YOU ran into Ojorf, and were told to keep quiet, since you seem to know more about that kind of MIB/brain fog encounter than I do. Hit with the forget beam eh?

Just more evidence for the investigation.
says Steelwolf

LOL I must say that this investigation here has turned out far better than I had hoped for. We now see what lengths they go to, so that they may prove TO EACH OTHER how every other idea, no matter what it proposes - is totally illogical/unacceptable in THEIR brains/minds.

They really haven't advanced very much from their monkey roots, have they.
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
I have not read @SEU's post, but I cannot imagine the mindstate that can actually try to make a response.

Get professional help. Get it now before you die of the stupid shit you do because you think the aliens are beaming microwaves into your house to kill you.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@DS
@CS, you imply that @SEU is trolling people with mental problems
eggy is a sadist with religious overtones which allow him to justify his trolling

his antisocial personality disorder is a psychological condition deriving sexual arousal from inflicting pain, humiliation, emotional frustration or duress on unwilling, non-consenting victims
http://www.psi.ub.../dsm.pdf

watching him vote along with his replies indicates that he derives great pleasure from targeting a subset of PO posters who are literate

eggy derives his pleasure in watching the pain of others but ignoring him will only cause him to create another sock and luring others into the cycle of trolling

he's a functional adult but likely a social outcast with a menial job and few who can tolerate him in person for very long
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@CS, when someone accuses me of opposing them by telepathy, I cannot see them as anything but a psychotic.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@DS
when someone accuses me of opposing them by telepathy, I cannot see them as anything but a psychotic
offered IMHO only

psychotic, yes... but it's more likely a means to endear himself to certain others as a means to gain credibility and support by inflaming you and others and presenting an "alternative" perspective that seems to appeal to the conspiracy idiots - call it crackpot networking if you like

I think eggy may believe some of the BS he spouts, but I think most of it is for show and to inflict suffering on the literate
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@CS, I don't really care what psychotic trolls do. I see little point in trying to change their minds; I beat my head against that wall for 50 years and it never worked. I think just moving on after making appropriate comments is sufficient.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@DS
I see little point in trying to change their minds
you won't change their minds

my point above is that, like zeph, getting the idiot eggy banned will only work temporarily - that was it

it was in regard to your comment
I would say we don't need someone doing that here
Steelwolf
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
I dont normally consider that a "MIB", but it was our own military intelligence and CIA questioning me. Interesting situation. I had finished a rushed asbestos removal in a recently shut down reactor in a (classified) class of sub. The space was hot, containment clothing hot, airflow, while heavy was not enough for proper cooling, and I sweated some 3+ quarts of water. I stepped out and into cooler air, uner an air duct, my Master Chief handed me a soda and as soon as that cold liquid hit the back of my throat I passed out.

Woke up in sick bay. But while there they tried questioning me under drugs, I was on heavy pain meds due to dehydration-induced pneumonia, and had to be kept drained of fluid build up, so they kept me doped up, and decided to question me about seeing the "UFO shoot down attempt" and how much I knew about reactors etc since I was leaving Navy soon. I told them that first they should have just asked me straight out. (2 B Cntd)
Steelwolf
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
And I gave them the exact account, how I had seen the craft moving from N to S, double flash with green, orange-tinged edges beam that went thru the space the craft would have been had it not made a non-curved turn when the double flash happened. They questioned me quite closely about details of the double flash, the beam and how it appeared to form and collapse, and the reactions of the craft.

They asked me loyalty questions etc, as well as if I had actual working details on the reactors we worked with, and while I knew the very specific basics about HOW they worked, I did not know the pipe sizes or flow rates etc, as I had no Need To Know, and was just fine with that. I actually knew more than they wanted me to, for being just enlisted Hull Tech with extended training due to us being a Submarine tender with special details, cautions and materials usages that make lesser firefighters turn around and walk away, and I lived with daily for 3 years on USS Proteus AS-19.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@steel
(2 B Cntd)
before you do, can you answer something: were you ever trained as a medic, EMT or paramedic?

Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
So, while I actually knew the individuals, and knew that they had a fairly odd job that put them in the middle of security situations and policy considerations both, which is strange coming from a Master chief Warrant Officer, compared to the Captain, Commander XO etc. Yet it was HIM, specifically that handled questions about enemy weapons systems, possible attacks, and what I had observed that night, which he, himself had obviously seen and told me to not repeat word of it. I did not until I saw vids of same encounter on TV a few years later.

So, in retrospect I did consider that to be equivalent to the MIB's and mind fogging, and the mind fogging was quite literal, but I was able to think around the drugs and thru them, and was still able to be clear, coherent and remember afterwards, against their direct orders at the time.

So, instead of typing all of that out I stated the likeness to MIB and mind fogging, and how it did not work for me. Hippies for parents helped.
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
Thanks, @Steel. Did they give you valium or other benzodiazepines? I will share that when I had a triple bypass I was kept on ativan for several days and had major, and extremely believable, hallucinations which I experienced as dreams. Luckily I had taken more than one hallucinogen when I was younger, and was able to sort the dreams out from reality once I had flushed the poison from my system. I have ensured that I am marked as allergic to all benzodiazepines ever since; that stuff was fun when I was a kid, but I prefer reality thanks.

Could you have experienced this in a benzodiazepine dream?
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
I was "battle trained" as far as being able to stabilize someone for transport, yes, to that degree, and I know my limits with first aid/medical, and have had to do real life- life and death triage being first responders to a 2 bus near head-on accident in the Phillippines.

With the sweat, I had my plastic containents boots literally full of sweat, and yes, 3 quarts of water tossed me into a major near coma due to dehydration and ion-interruption collapse. If I were not 6'3" and 220 lbs, would have been worse.

I woke up with a liter of saline finishing draining into the arm, I asked corpsman that I took whole liter he told me, no, that was the third one so far and they were having to be slow due to the fact that the lungs had dessicated enough to crack and weep, so they were keeping me mostly half-upside down and rotating slow so as to not allow fluid buildup in any one area. 4 days on morphine like that sucked and was another month before I felt human again.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
3 / 5 (4) Dec 04, 2018
@Steelwolf
You are making a serious mistake by fully explaining to these ignorant monkeys, such as Captain Stinky and Da Schithead what you have experienced. They don't believe you. They haven't had the same experiences that you've had - which brings their monkey brains to the fore, which drives them to view you as from another monkey tribe, making you their enemy.
My advice is for you to cease and desist. Your experiences fall on their deaf eyes and they only wish to make you a laughingstock for their amusement.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@steel
I was "battle trained" as far as being able to stabilize someone for transport, yes, to that degree, and I know my limits with first aid/medical...
so pretty much to the first responder level with a dash of other knowledge?

what medications were you given other than morphine? do you remember?

what else do you remember about your treatment?

How long till you were off light duty or released to duty?

there are a few possibilities here ranging from heat exhaustion, dehydration or exposure to medicinal influences and possible trauma
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
Thanks DS, I had smoked pot before the Navy, not into harder stuff even then. And no, it was no Benzo dream. I saw the stuff very clearly enough. It was funny me telling them they should have just questioned me straight as I did not have anything to hide anyhow. I reported the incident as a National Security possible threat, and was told that "they knew about it and for me to not worry", that it was their job and I should just forget all of that time period.

Obviously, I did not forget, and told that particular odd (CIA) officer that I most certainly DID remember, and he only again ordered me to be quiet, but said that People would think me nuts anyhow.

I was a Navy Welder, and high end trained for radiation work, asbestos work and toxics, as well as how to deal with them all. I was HazMat trained before there most folks knew what HazMat was or even existed since it came out of military explosive, radioactive and other Hazardous Materials Handling training and experience.
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
Stump, that info is beyond your need to know. I gave you the pertinent data, given you plenty of data, and you do not believe anyhow, just add it to your copy/paste ammo files because if gives you something you Think you are able to laugh about.

I was rather lucid under the effects of their drug cocktail, on top of the morphine they gave me initially and constantly for the 4 days in sick bay. But it was very much to their consternation that I had full recollection of what they had done and talked about while they had me under what they thought a deep enough sedation to stop the formation of memories.

It Seriously did not make them happy with me, but there was nothing they could do to me as aside from the problems associated with them drugging me I was a Full Honorable type Sailor, with 2 Battle E's on the awards bar, along with other time in service, clean nose badges.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@Steelwolf
Now that you have continued on your quest for attention and to be accepted into the fold here that is led by CaptainStinky and DaSchneibo in command and control status - and that you have decided to spill your guts wrt what should have been your private concern/record, you are on your own. Those who spoke with you after your experiences are not ones to take your "talking" lightly.
Don't say that I didn't warn you.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@steel
you do not believe anyhow, just add it to your copy/paste ammo files because if gives you something you Think you are able to laugh about
you misunderstand: I believe that you believe it happened, which is why I inquired

there are several things that may affect what you "know" or believe, including:
heat stress or exposure, psychotropic medications, physical trauma, dehydration, exposure (elements, Biological, Chemical, possibly Nuclear), pneumonia, drug cocktail (just based on what you posted)

if you worked long enough to lose that amount of fluid and were exposed to that amount of heat, someone in charge wasn't doing their job
and he only again ordered me to be quiet, but said that People would think me nuts anyhow
if you didn't sign yet another secrecy agreement then it's not a big issue at all

however, if you *have* signed regarding this incident then you can still be brought up on charges
http://www.ucmj.us/

Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
SEU, I do appreciate your warning and concern, but I have known this particular set of folks fer, well, arguin with em fer a decade or so. But the information needs to go out there. This is a time of people finding out that many of their preciously held notions end up running into hard reality.

Example is that while folks like the idea of the '50s with the cars and rockets and jet airplanes, they have no concept of how dirty the industries were until people started dying and large numbers complained, loudly.

They wanted laws to stop the polluters, but those 'polluters' were THE top money in manufacturing and energy production, and so when regulations were written, they made very much sure that they got to make the definitions that were advantageous to themselves. That is why I argued about toxic liquid flammable waste was, by statute, declared a Fuel rather than toxic waste due to it's inherent flammable liquid hydrocarbon equivalent to fresh petroleum distillate.
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
But, of course, the majority of salable toxic, on hand stocks in dumps was rather quickly used up, and it was then a matter of setting up a cycle where the people needing certain solvents were able to get them and turn them in, used, for new, and the old solvent went back for reprocessing and most likely ending up as feedstock in a fuel run instead.

But in that case, and in the case of having witnessed certain things in the military and having been very highly trained at what I did, and being an information sponge I also picked up as much history and side data/trivia along the way as well. I have no need to make up fanciful tales, or to tell lies, I tell straight up facts, and if folks either disagree or think it funny, well, it is their loss.

Those that choose to troll, they just consider it 'way out there woo,' and then the day something happens to them that They cannot explain, but saw clearly, they will find that they will not be believed either, and laughed at too.
Captain Stumpy
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
@steel
a deep enough sedation to stop the formation of memories
sedation doesn't necesarrily stop the formation of memories

that depends on the type of sedation you get and the drug they use
there is such a thing as conscious sedation, usually using something like benzodiazepine-type and narcotic medications
https://www.surge...ous.html

these are still psychotropic and can lead to hallucinations depending on the dose
https://onlinelib...b00577.x

https://onlinelib...b00855.x

Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
Nah, as far as UCMJ I am clear, lol And the incidents happened months apart, but they wanted to deep question me concerning security since we were a sub tender fer nuke armed subs in the 80s. I was a true blue there for the Nation type kid at the time, even tho my dad had been a UDT/SEAL in the Navy himself and later seconded to the CIA for his ability with a rifle and high velocity lead installations.

So, I went into the Navy and was careful about staying out of such programs as dad had done, him being a kid out of the woods/logger when he went in and extremely skilled with hunting 4 leggers, he told me later hunting 2 leggers is easier, but more dangerous because they hunt back. He had separate ammo for both.

But because of having someone with actual data like that on certain things, I knew more than most folks my age, by a long ways, and that has extended into the rest of my life. I was Born in a rabbit hole, by today's standards on deep (ly hidden) data.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@Steelwolf
I see that you are an environmentalist by your concerns of such toxicity having been introduced into the enviro. That is laudable and I do agree that such materiel is responsible for injuring or killing life forms as well as human monkeys.
But what has that to do with your illness and having been hospitalised? It was apparently caused by the heat in a southeast Asian country, which you were not used to enduring.
And yet, here in an internet website for everyone to see - you have decided to make known that certain "operatives" had TOLD you to not make any revelations regarding what you saw.
WHAT YOU SAW is not in the general public idiom - with good reason.
The "people" named above are not interested in your welfare - but only to gather/collect information about YOU and your private/public life and your available knowledge for them to classify and archive. You should have realised these truths after all these years. But you choose to ignore the truth. Why?
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
double post
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
Dont need to worry about saying anything about dad, at least superficially like that, especially since his lead handler in the CIA they are having a major State Funeral for presently.
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
No SEU, you misread parts of the above, was not due to location, but the exact work condition in a (classified) type of work area. The engines had just been shut down, and so were extremely hot, temperature wise, and moderately hot radiation wise.

I understand their attempts, but where it is going to lead them is somewhere they ultimately do not want to get to, really, because they would have to admit too much of what they consider to be 'woo' is true, and it will bite em hard if they try that with me. Having a dad like I did, who was an a Govt-covert-ops-lead-installer like that just means there may be surprises in my backtrail. I was the one who told Barrett to start using motorcycle struts as shock absorbers in his .50 cal sniper rifle he used while on the Black Widow team. Always good to have widespread friends like that.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@Steelwolf
Your dad worked under a good man who was a fairly good "leader" of the US. But the present leader is even better. MY loyalty is to him since I have become a sworn-in US citizen.
But there is nothing hallucinatory about seeing what you did - especially when you also had other eyewitnesses with or near you.
However, why make trouble for yourself and your family by talking about it in a public forum such as this. You won't be believed - but you will be mocked and thought of as crazy. There are some who know that what you saw was reality - but they will mock you anyway because that is what they do. Humans are like that - particularly those who have been infected with demonic possession - which is also a reality.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018

Steelwolf

2.1 / 5 (7)
Oct 19, 2018
"SEU, It was not the only time I have seen such, not the exact type of thing, but different enough thing like a satellite jumping back and forth 2 degrees of sky while it orbited...that one I had witnesses with to see, normal orbital speed, but NO time between side to side changes.

And I did have the MIB type come and talk to me as well, ordering me to Never repeat what I had seen on such and such night as specified time. They were very nasty, pushy, aggressive and projected a mental fog, which I was able to push away, to their surprise. They left quickly after giving their message.

Was also met and talked to individuals from 'the other side' who were very Positive, good and friendly folks who, while one could speak English, the other was Telepathic in it only. They told me that I would see them again and to repeat as broadly as I can the truths I know about science and the events I have seen so that others will hear, an...."
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
Most of my family has passed on, and those friends still with me already know these things. It is time to no longer worry about being mocked for my family sake and safety, since they are beyond danger now. I can tell my story and not have to worry about retribution on innocents connected to me, no hostages.

But it is time to throw open the truth and let people see what the real world contains, to show people that they have an extremely limited and biased worldview that was formed, seemingly, by a bunch of scared children of the survivors of a massive catastrophic end to a massive civilization, and the information they encoded in stories, artwork and architecture concerning the very facts of solar precession of the equinoxes and warning of certain times of year, all around the world in different civilizations at different times, and so often the focus made one look to the sky, and celebrations based on heavenly movements.

They left clues to be seen/understod, not selfied with.
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 04, 2018
I have always retained the right to keep my privacy and even if I do share info, sometimes it is in a form that is very close to what happened, but much condensed so as to save deep explanation. That officer was extremely dark, yet he was a deep dip operative of some sort too, i could tell, having had one fer a dad. Sometimes the names are changes to protect the innocent, or classified materials that were classified then and no change as far as I know.

I may be disabled with severe spinal rebuilding and a lifetime on medication, but you would never know that sitting down with me, aside from my stiffness moving. And with the PTSD from that era, I may be crazy, but I am Not Stupid, and never have been.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@Steelwolf
I copied your post (above) from the link that ojorf posted in this forum to make fun of your experiences. So you DID have eyewitnesses to what you saw and could not forget. That is very helpful for you to corroborate your sightings with others.
Your post above that I copied onto this forum shows that someone such as this "ojorf" is a mental midget for having copied word-for-word what you had said in order to make fun of you.
This ojorf I suspect is the spouse of Captain Stumpetydumpy, and who is here in this website to aid and abet Stumpety's meanderings wrt other commenters. She has done that often wrt MY posts also.
These "people" are thick as thieves.
Surveillance_Egg_Unit
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
SEU, I do appreciate your warning....the information needs to go out there. This is a time of people finding out that many of their preciously held notions end up running into hard reality.

Example is that....rockets and jet airplanes, they have no concept of how dirty the industries were until people started dying and large numbers complained, loudly.

They wanted laws to stop the polluters, but those 'polluters' were THE top money in manufacturing and energy production, and so when regulations were written, they made very much sure that they got to make the definitions that were advantageous to themselves. That is why I argued about toxic liquid flammable waste was, by statute, declared a Fuel rather than toxic waste due to it's inherent flammable liquid hydrocarbon equivalent to fresh petroleum distillate.

says Steelwolf

The "top money" isn't breathing different, finer and cleaner air. They are just as susceptible to COPD and lung cancer as anyone else
Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 04, 2018
@Steel, thanks for taking me seriously and answering.
granville583762
5 / 5 (1) Dec 05, 2018
Benzodiazepine Living in the hallucinogenic world of drugs

But
Our mind free of these drugs
in its fantastical construction
operates in electrochemical cellular world
in its child like state
in its growing child
in a mysterious world of fairies and elves
that magical world we all inhabited as a child
though in our lost childhood years
are mind never Hallucinated
it never lost track with Reality
as in this mysterious childhood world
our mind was pure
free of mankind's drugs
free of narcotics
free of tobacco and its addiction
in its world of child like imagination
our mind as pure as the driven snow
our mind in our child's cranium
our mind pacifically
created this child's world of magical fantasy
because our mind in its pure untainted state
was learning vast amounts of knowledge
our mind was in its most sanest state
We will never forget those magical years
Steelwolf
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 05, 2018
Ya know Granville, I would posit that sugar, such as candy and ice cream, are actually THE gateway drug since the adults give kids those substances at celebration times, and the sugar high with the hyperactive children is very much a reality. So sugar is our first Legal Buzz that we start looking for and craving, and there are all Kinds of advertising out there, candy wrappers make Wonka's chocolate factory look tame today.

By the time they try cigs and get a buzz, but sick, they dont think that is so great, same with alcohol, if they dont accidently poison themselves fatally with it, end up with massive hangovers or sick drunk. And those are legal. They try pot and find that it is not as heavy as alcohol, heavier than cigs, and instead of getting sick you get hungry and then nap after.

This is dangerous as they then think harder drugs were lied about as well since they were lied to about 'Pot's Bad, M'Kay?' and then go on to OD on opiods or heroin not knowing better.
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 05, 2018
DS, I normally have you on ignore as you get too involved in trolling at times, but at others you have intelligent posts and I give upvotes. I don't just auto-vote certain detractors down as that is never helpful and would put me on that level as well.

As it is, I have always told what I have either experienced first hand or read of in the media of the time. The kerfluffle with Capt.S is one I talked about to various teachers at the time and the science and civics teachers were upset, but also saw the rational behind it. If the jet was working right then even the mid-cut with high neurotoxic materials that would have to be classed as Hazardous Waste go through the jet fine and burn surprisingly clean, with mostly CO2 and water vapor being produced. Only light metallic and impurities cause the real problems, and even clean burning, the quench temp with cold air can create PCB's from the hot CO2 gasses meeting chlorine in the atmosphere. Is traces only but exists.
granville583762
5 / 5 (1) Dec 05, 2018
The Addiction
Steelwolf> Ya know Granville, I would posit that sugar such as candy and ice cream are actually THE gateway drug since the adults give kids those substances
By the time they try cigs and get a buzz but sick, they dont think t is so great, same with alcohol They try pot and find that it is not as heavy as alcohol heavier than cigs and instead of getting sick you get hungry and then nap after.
This is dangerous as they then think harder drugs were lied about as well since they were lied to about Pot's Bad M'Kay then go on to OD on opiods or heroin not knowing better

One day you can explain what cigarettes are
then after that day you can explain the harder substances
As in this Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire world I know not of what you speak
and so these withdrawal symptoms are a complete mystery to me
I do not count myself fortunate or lucky
It is just how things are
In this Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire world
Captain Stumpy
3 / 5 (2) Dec 05, 2018
@steel
The kerfluffle with Capt.S is one I talked about to various teachers at the time... but also saw the rational behind it
our disagreement isn't about the toxicity of the jet fuel but the claims about government policies and procedures to get rid of toxic wastes which you claim were established and are part of the law, etc sans evidence
https://phys.org/...ric.html

How many of these teachers were aeronautical engineers, jet mechanics or versed in aircraft and how well educated were they in said topics?

incineration of waste is logical in that era;
incineration of waste using expensive aircraft with souls on board in the slowest, most time-consuming fashion while specifically manufacturing more toxic material for the sake of additives in fuel is ludicrous

Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 05, 2018
Actually I gave you plenty of evidence, you merely disregarded it, probably not reading the one as it dealt (in the title) with Solid Waste Management, which, when you read it actually gave the history of the hazardous fuels and the reasoning behind it. As I said, it did not take long for them to be able to take a lot of old, depleted solvents and re-run them as feedstock when the military was screaming for fuel, and the EPA's direct legislation allowed them t do that, specifically giving exemptions for Military fuels as well as the international treaties for a standardized basic fuel mix, which entailed, at times, using certain previously classed hazardous materials as fuel stock or additives.

They took the liquid hydrocarbon waste and in a single act, reclassified it as a strategic fuel source and salable product, providing it met same regs and mix requirements as other petroleum fuels straight from virgin crude. Thus it was no longer 'toxic waste', but valuable fuel.
Steelwolf
3 / 5 (2) Dec 05, 2018
And YES, the fuels themselves, even from the virgin crude, still contain the same otherwise banned distillate fractions that used to be separated out and used for other things. Yet when burnt in a jet turbine engine that fuel mix actually burns rather clean, leaving mostly CO2, Water vapor, traces of PCB's due to the exhaust reaction to the colder air, and small amounts of soot.

The basic toxic brew that jet fuel is, it makes no actual difference whether it is sourced from virgin crude or re-used petroleum waste products, Hazardous toxic wastes with high hydrocarbon content were re-run through the fractionating towers and reprocessed into fuels, jet fuel amongst them, and as it was chemically the same as from virgin crude, they could sell it as fuel, at first they had to use the much hated term Hazardous Waste Derived Fuels, but they were able to legislate that away by renaming the waste as a Fuel Resource instead, no matter it needing HazMat handling care.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 05, 2018
@steel
Actually I gave you plenty
you and I have different meanings of evidence

You gave me only what *you* required to believe your conspiracy, which isn't the same thing

in point of fact, I repeatedly pointed out that the only way to believe your arguments with your evidence is to accept your conspiracy as factual *first*

nowhere is there any evidence supporting your claim that the government, and I quote
informed the public that they would started mixing certain chemical wastes into the jet fuel as a way to 'incinerate it at high altitude' with our military craft and passenger fleets as a way to get rid of the stocks of such things as sulfur contaminated benzenes and PCBs
[sic]

so, you've not shown where they informed the public which should be available in the sites I linked to you to search

nor have you shown where their policy was to incinerate waste in jet fuel in aircraft

I've never contested that jet fuel is toxic or has additives
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (4) Dec 05, 2018
@steel cont'd
probably not reading the one as it dealt (in the title) with Solid Waste Management
and it's not just my perspective

I've had no less than 10 other people, three of which are the most anti-government people I've ever known, read through your comments *and* the linked evidence and they have the same conclusions: your links and references do *not* make the claim that you're making that I quoted above

Of course, there is a way to solve the problem: appeal to outsiders
take the same arguments, links and references and post them in a thread on a site like https://www.physicsforums.com/ or Sciforums and have a moderator and some of the site posters give feedback

your choice, but I will predict right now that you will refuse

Da Schneib
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 05, 2018
@steel, I have to point out that if they have been refractionated. they're not the same toxic chemicals any more. They're now aviation fuel. On the other hand, PCBs contain chlorine, so you'd have to show chlorinated exhaust from burning them. What evidence do you present to show this chlorinated exhaust?
Steelwolf
1 / 5 (1) Dec 06, 2018
Salt from our abundant oceans in the form of NaCl, which is also one of the problematic contaminants since it dissolves easy. There are other forms of Chlorine in the air as well. As you already know.

And the fact that refractionating them renders them the same as 'new' petrochemicals, but some of those stocks were already 'pure' enouh and so were used in the fuels directly, was not a long time for them to use up several million tons of rotting chem stock with our wars ongoing. But that which did not need refractioning was considered fuel grade portions and added back to the mix.

And even though it IS basically the same, it still had to carry the title, for a time, of Hazardous Waste Derived Fuel. They did it with a pen to state all those toxic chemicals under previous law, could be turned into jet fuel, if they met the same grades and requirements of other jet fuel or that portion of it that matched chemically.

That is why they are known as Jet Fuel Mixes.
Steelwolf
1 / 5 (1) Dec 06, 2018
While it is from Wiki, the basic law is open to investigation with the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976:
"The Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) is a United States law, passed by the United States Congress in 1976 and administered by the United States Environmental Protection Agency, that regulates the introduction of new or already existing chemicals. When the TSCA was put into place, all existing chemicals were considered to be safe for use and subsequently grandfathered in."

And the jet fuels and all the stuff in them then, PCBs and sulfides as additives etc, all grandfathered in by law. Jet Fuels also got international exemptions as well, which are still in place.

Very little actual information on the proprietary fuel mixes and they tend to go on the basis of anything that will burn 'reasonably' clean. As even CS says, JP fuels are hazardous, from the get go, and in '76 were grandfathered in along with exemptions for military use etc.

Definitions matter.

Please sign in to add a comment. Registration is free, and takes less than a minute. Read more

Click here to reset your password.
Sign in to get notified via email when new comments are made.