Opinion: Donald Trump's chaotic use of metaphor is a crucial part of his appeal

Donald Trump’s chaotic use of metaphor is a crucial part of his appeal
Credit: Joseph Sohm

Hillary Clinton recently described Donald Trump's ideas as "dangerously incoherent". "They're not even really ideas," she said, "just a series of bizarre rants, personal feuds and outright lies." She wasn't wrong; incoherence is a prominent feature of Trump's rule-breaking rhetorical style.

But in the context of political communication, what's especially striking about Trump is that he rarely make use of that sharp political tool: the central metaphor.

A good central metaphor is typically one of the hallmarks of any effective political . It provides a logical core around which an argument can cohere. Enoch Powell's famously divisive "rivers of blood" speech carefully builds in intensity until it compares his own foreboding about immigration policy to the prophecy from Virgil's Aeneid about seeing the river Tiber "foaming with much blood".

In American politics, Franklin D. Roosevelt famously used a war metaphor in his depression-era Inauguration speech, when he proclaimed: "I assume unhesitatingly the leadership of this great army of our people dedicated to a disciplined attack upon our common problems."

One of the reasons this speech worked so forcefully was FDR's ability to identify the resonance between the power of the post-depression American workforce and that of an army in a battle.

In classical rhetoric, Aristotle even went so far as to say that the ability to discern these types of similarities was a sign of genius. As he saw it, a similarity between two things – a workforce and an army, say – can generate a new type of meaning for the listener. It can collapse all the complex problems and ideas together and thereby make them both intelligible and gripping.

This has long been considered the definition of astute political rhetoric, and perhaps never more so than in the 21st century, the age of the glib soundbite. But Trump, who has careened through almost every conceivable political norm in this election cycle, almost never uses the kind of coherent that political rhetoricians have relied on for millennia.

Dead or alive

Linguists sometimes make a distinction between "live" and "dead" metaphors. Dead metaphors are those used so often in our everyday speech that we forget they are metaphors, and instead hear them as literal language. It doesn't take much to grasp this concept; did you notice that you can't actually "grasp" a concept but that it's a dead metaphor?

Like the rest of us, Trump uses plenty of these: recall when he cackhandedly tweeted that the Scots were taking their country back. Of course, one doesn't literally "take back" a country, but we use the metaphor so often that its figurative quality no longer stands out to us.

Live metaphors are much more difficult to craft. While the term wasn't around in Aristotle's time, the examples he used are the types of metaphors we might call a live metaphor. Like FDR's metaphor of the "great army", live metaphors tend to have a lasting as well as immediate impact. They have the power to define, unify, and grab the attention of the listener. Most of all, they help to create a central, coherent structure on which the speaker can build their argument.

Donald Trump rarely uses live metaphors, but when he does, they literally make headlines. In his eagerly anticipated "serious" foreign policy speech in April, he said he was going to "shake the rust off American foreign policy". This live metaphor became the headline for the Financial Times's review of the speech. The metaphor certainly gets our attention – but did he mean to say "shake the dust off?" And is he really going to shake the US that hard?

Aristotle wouldn't have been impressed.

Thrown together

Trump's usual rhetorical stock-in-trade is a random tumble of metaphors, some dead, some alive. When he said in May that China is "raping our country" it certainly caught people's attention. But then in the next line of the speech he said, "we have the cards, don't forget it".

Having or holding the cards is almost a dead metaphor; we understand the phrase without thinking of a card game. But then comes the next line, and unlike FDR's famous link between "the great army of the people" and the "attack on the common problem", a rape metaphor and a card game metaphor hardly resonate with each other at all.

Because of this sort of metaphorical chaos, Trump's speeches generally lack a unifying image. But then again, perhaps incoherence is precisely what makes his rhetoric so appealing.

To those who rally behind Trump, his brash and outrageous statements aren't gaffes, but examples of truth-telling bravery. The reason for this may be not just about the content of Trump's speeches, but their structure. In casual spoken English, our metaphors and our speech are not always perfectly pitched, and can sound more like a series of fragmented ideas.

This is precisely what Georgetown University linguist Jennifer Sclafani has pointed out about Trump's style: because his sentences are fragmented and they jump around, his rhetoric "may come off as incoherent and unintelligible when we compare it with the organised structure of other candidates' answers. On the other hand, his conversational style can also help construct an identity for him as authentic, relatable and trustworthy, which are qualities that voters look for in a presidential candidate."

So whether or not Trump is elected, his campaign may yet have a deep and lasting impact on modern political rhetoric. All the rules of functional speech, it seems, can be broken.


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Aug 04, 2016
I don't understand the big deal about the way Trump talks, when Hillary Clinton got away with the extremely careless (exact words of the FBI) handling of classified documents and could be responsible for many of our young soldiers deaths.
Did you ever wonder what classified documents contain? Probably a good majority of them involve troop movements of our young soldiers. I can't imagine Hillary Clinton wanting a classified document containing the radioactive yield of a particular missile. But I could see a wealthy contributor or friend asking Hillary for a personal favor, to find where her son is currently deployed (example - With the 23 airborn in the city of Chora in Afghanistan for 2 days then going north). Thus Hillarys request for a classified document that if accidently leaked gets our boys killed.

Although unlikely, that boy's death that was talked about during the DNC, could have been the direct result of Hillary Clinton's extreme carelessness!

Aug 04, 2016
The reason that I and others like Trump is that he does not appear to be part of our ONE party system here in the US. The .1% own the world political systems and are creating chaos in order to induce the rest of of us to cede them our freedoms for safety.


Aug 04, 2016
The very fact that many of the most powerful Republican figures hate him gives me a little hope that he might actually change the system for the better.

Aug 04, 2016
As long as the party leaders and media completely control who we vote for, Trump will not get elected, any more than Bernie Sanders will. When the media portrays Trump as immigrant hater and the people believe it despite the fact that he is very happily married to a immigrant and his kids are the children of a immigrant, they will believe anything they are told.
Examples abound -- Trump hates Jews! This in spite of the fact his son in law is a Jewish and his soon to be grandson (which he brags about) will be Jewish.
Trump thinks women are below him! This in spite of the fact his daughters help him run his company and campaign. Plus even his ex wives don't have a bad word to say about him.

Aug 04, 2016
Everything that you said is sad but true.

Aug 04, 2016
The only bit of history that give me hope is that the Russians managed to throw out the Communist leadership and form a new government. Their media and educational system tried to program them to, and failed.

Aug 04, 2016
The reason that I and others like Trump is that he does not appear to be part of our ONE party system here in the US. The .1% own the world political systems and are creating chaos in order to induce the rest of of us to cede them our freedoms for safety.



Appearances can be deceiving.

Trump is a card carrying member of that 1%.

The cultivated image is at odds with reality.

Aug 04, 2016
Quote Appearances can be deceiving.
But not as deciving as words, without actions!
Only a member of that 1% can truly make changes that can lead to greatness as a president and as a country.
lets see if we can name a few of the 1% that made a difference,
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson.
Theodore Roosevelt.
And although not as rich as the others still in that 1% John Kennady
It's the desire for greatness and extreme patriotism that makes a great leader
Although to stop the 1% ers it is helpful to know them as only a 1% er can.


Aug 05, 2016
He is a danger to the world for the following reasons:

1. His stated international security policy promotes the adoption of nukes by every country. It is absolutely obvious that the more countries that have nukes the more likely someone is going to use them and after that occurs we are headed to armageddon.

2. He states climate change is something made up by the Chinese. This is even more looney than the typical denialist. Tearing down the Paris treaty will put the globe on a trajectory for a 4C rise which again will be catastrophe for the planet.

3. In general he promotes tribalism. Whether its muslims or Mexicans or who ever is next. You only have to view raw footage of his rallies to see this in action. Its already encouraging conflict and unhappiness.

http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0

4. He is indeed simply one of the 1%. Sanders demonstrated you don't need to be in the 1% to make it as president.

Aug 05, 2016
A racist, a sexist and a narcissist walks into a bar.
Everyone goes... Look it's da Donald!
The US is on the verge of having a cyst for a president.

Aug 05, 2016
Whatever you may think of Trump or Clinton...if his approach towards the use of nuclear weapons is true
http://www.telegr...becomes/
Then there's no way anyone who doesn't want to experience WWIII first hand can vote for Trump.

Even the most evil Clinton administration can't be worse than that.

Aug 05, 2016
So Anti, which is worse Trump threatening the possible use of nuclear weapons or Hillary and Obama creating and funding ISIS?

Aug 05, 2016
So Anti, which is worse Trump threatening the possible use of nuclear weapons or Hillary and Obama creating and funding ISIS?

Since you and I WILL die when Trump uses nuclear wepaons - take a guess.

Clinton is a self-serving bitch - no doubt about that. But at least she know that she will be sunk if she doesn't at least somewhat listen to others.
Trump doesn't listen to anyone (at least he hasn't really shown that he's capable to). He'll just go back to his lap of luxury after playing at being president.

As for 'creating and funding ISIS'..that has a looong history (since the overthrow of the Shah of Iran in 1979) - with presidents and conresses (republican and democrat alike) funding everything from the Ayatollahs to Saddam to the Taliban to...

Learn some history once in a while. It definitely will be a real eye-opener for you.

Aug 05, 2016
So far Obama's and Clinton's "Lead from Behind" policies have brought the world closer to WWIII than anything that Trump could ever say. Relations with China and Russia have deteriorated to Cold War levels. The Middle East has gone from stable to improving under Bush, to total chaos now . Iraq was more or less on it's way to becoming a Democracy and now is controlled by Iran. Destabilizing existing governments is NOT the way to world peace.

Aug 05, 2016
As far as Hillary goes EVERYTHING is for sale and she will have the worlds biggest garage sale as she markets US interests to the highest bidder.

Aug 05, 2016
Destabilizing existing governments is NOT the way to world peace.

Totally agree...but the US has been doing nothing but that since WWII. Republicans and Democrats are very much alike in that. (More to the point: their financial backers. It's so much to profiteer from countries in turmoil and a war economy than from actually having to deal with stable nations and peactime competition).

But the point I was making earlier was: Clinton would never use nuclear weapons (unless attacked). Trump has already shown willingness to use them to attack. And that's all there is to it.

Aug 05, 2016
"Trump has already shown willingness to use them to attack"

Part of the MAD theory of national defense is convincing your opponents that you are willing to use nuclear weapons. Acting weak as Obama has done only gives our adversaries encouragement to attack us. Putin knows this very well and thus no one messes with him.

Aug 05, 2016
Trump is a dark, deeply pathological, vengeful and scheming figure. The only other figure seeking the office of the presidency that is remotely close to Trump's nastiness and corruption of personality was Richard Nixon. You can put aside all his meager policy statements - just look at the man - he is devoid of humanity and decency.

Aug 05, 2016
Quote --"Trump is a dark, deeply pathological, vengeful and scheming figure. The only other figure seeking the office of the presidency_____"

I know this as a fact because the media told me so! The idea of thinking for myself only gives me a headache. Don't do it! It is so much easier to let the media do it for me. Besides when I repeat it, I sound smart. "-)

Aug 05, 2016
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Aug 05, 2016
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Aug 05, 2016
remotely close to Trump's nastiness and corruption of personality was Richard Nixon.

C'mon - at least Nixon knew what he was talking about most of the time. Nixon wasn't a complete doofus.
Trump can go for days before actually admitting he never saw the thing he's ranting and raving about.
http://abcnews.go...41141259
The man's just making shit up left and right and the american public is swallowing it whole. He's just playing on the "peopel hear what they want to hear", that's why he can get away with constantly contradicting himself.

For some reason I think this approach wouldn't fly in international relations.

Aug 05, 2016
I think that I could accept Bernie as president before I could accept Hillary. At least he appears to be sincere in his beliefs, whereas Hillary tells you what she thinks you want to hear for her own gains.

Brazil and Venezuela prove that Bernie is totally wrong but at least he means well.

Aug 05, 2016
Europe is often offered as the ideal socialist government prototype. But it benefited from a common culture that did not view "Milking the System" as socially acceptable. Well let's see how they do with the new immigration wave that has no qualms about government entitlements.

Aug 05, 2016
Let me show you and example of this. Here in the US it will easily take more than 3 years for a bank to foreclose on a property. Of course, this is all in the name of protecting people from the horrible banks. Also just a short while back, lenders were forced by the government to make loans to just about anyone. Well in my condo people took out loans, WITH NO OR LITTLE MONEY DOWN, to buy units and then rented them out. They did not make any mortgage payments or pay any of the condo fees for years, but they did collect the rents.

THIS IS HOW YOU MILK THE SYSTEM!!!!!

Aug 05, 2016
C'mon - at least Nixon knew what he was talking about most of the time. Nixon wasn't a complete doofus.
Sure he did, and according to President Johnson and Senate Republican Leader Everett Dirksen, Nixon was guilty of treason even before he got elected: How Richard Nixon Sabotaged 1968 Vietnam Peace Talks to Get Elected President

Republican hero Ronald Reagan was likewise guilty of treason: Without Reagan's Treason, Iran Would Not Be a Problem

Rest assured, the current election, like all previous ones, is beyond rigged. The elite on both sides of the aisle are deathly afraid of democracy, they're terrified of it – they call it "mob rule."

Aug 05, 2016
Let me understand your position, in 1968 Nixon, then a private US citizen, was responsible for the US continuing in the Vietnam war.

Oh I just love the stupidity of the liberal mind.

Aug 05, 2016
Let me remind you, he had a Democratically controlled House and Senate during his term. Yea, Right, it is all Nixon's fault!

Aug 05, 2016
Let me understand your position, in 1968 Nixon, then a private US citizen, was responsible for the US continuing in the Vietnam war.

Oh I just love the stupidity of the liberal mind.
LBJ and Everett Dirksen were liberals? That's their positions. Mine was on the extent to which things happen behind the scenes in order to assure maintaining the status quo. I'm actually quite conservative when it comes to law and order and establishing justice. Are you actually a Republican? Ouch...

Aug 05, 2016
Republican or Democrat, who gives a s**t as they are all the same party that is controlled by the .1%. We need to take control away from them.

Aug 05, 2016
In my above example concerning banks and foreclosures the scammers do not even need to hire a lawyer. The courts will appoint one free of charge and this lawyer will be more than happy, in fact even bound by ethics, to help you scam the system.

Aug 05, 2016
Then there's no way anyone who doesn't want to experience WWIII first hand can vote for Trump
-Spoken like a true Auslander.

AA quotes a liberal foreign newspaper which quotes heresay from a liberal journalist, and interprets it in AA's own amerikaphobic way.

Trump is not a professional talker. He is not a speechifier which you euros are so enamoured with. He was trying to ascertain under what conditions the use of nuclear weapons would be justified, which is the proper thing to do for the person who may have to decide whether to use them or not.

Theyre there. He may have to decide to use them. He was very wise in discussing the specific parameters for their use beforehand, so that he wouldnt have to do this at the last moment.

Macht Sinn?

Of course since youve already decided they shouldnt be there in the first place, your opinions are understandable.

Aug 05, 2016
but the US has been doing nothing but that since WWII
-Typical amerikaphobe vitriol. Euros are so easy. This is because they have been letting others think for them for a very long time.

All those who were unwilling to let this happen, left.

Aug 05, 2016
It is very hard to know at the time an event is happening if one should get involved. Hindsight is always 20-20. As an example, China is building islands in the South China Sea and claiming the rights to what once was international waters. What and who should be doing something about this. Is a nasty letter from the UN sufficient?

Aug 05, 2016
Rest assured, the current election, like all previous ones, is beyond rigged. The elite on both sides of the aisle are deathly afraid of democracy, they're terrified of it – they call it "mob rule."

Sure. Democrats and Republicans...it's just a choice between ultra right nationalists and super far right crazies. The difference is a nuance in shades of (pretty dark) gray. But there is some power situated in the person of the commander-in-chief.
And I think putting someone with massive narcicisstic tendencies, rage issues and a petty vindictive streak there isn't a good idea. It wasn't a good idea when McCain ran for president and with Trump it would be a total disater for the US.

Aug 05, 2016
"Sure. Democrats and Republicans...it's just a choice between ultra right nationalists and super far right crazies. "

Anti if nothing else your statement has highlighted the divide in US politics. To me most of the Republicans are closet liberals and the Democrats are mostly far left revolutionaries.

Aug 05, 2016
We both see the failures in the system but attribute it to polar opposite reasons. The sad truth is that the .1% will continue to exist in both systems and they will continue to craft laws in their own favor. If the USSR was a fantastic success I might be swayed to your side. Socialism just assumes that the government is capable of making better decisions about your life than you can.

Aug 05, 2016
Venezuela is a prime example of the follies of socialism. The .1% there sill have plenty of food.
BTW, who should intervene there? Should the world just let them starve? Should the US "Nation Build"? After all it is relatively close to us.

Aug 05, 2016
But we won the vietnam war!
Oops that's not the politically correct thing to say.
Just what do you guys think the Vietnam war was for?
So we could own a piece of tropical jungle where diseases run rampant?
Or perhaps to win freedom for a bunch of people in straw huts with no education and no chance of governing themselves.
If the above statements are true then why did we fight in Vietnam?
Come on use your heads. :-) And disregard what the media told you.
And why do I say "We won the war"?

Aug 05, 2016
OK, I'll bite, why?

Other that the fact that a lot of arms were purchased I cannot think of any other winners.

Aug 05, 2016
Back in the 50s, then president, General Eisenhower warned us of the dangers of the military/industrial complex but the warning went in one ear and out the other.

Aug 05, 2016
It was the height of the cold war and our biggest adversary was Russia.
Quote MR144 "Other that the fact that a lot of arms were purchased"
That's right, we won the cold war because we made Russia go broke buying arms, competing in the space race, and every other way we could think of to make them spend money. And that includes Vietnam.
Supposedly even the fake research we did in the paranormal was to get Russia to spend money on their own paranormal research.

All this worked and there is no denying it. WE WON! Russia went broke and dissolved leaving us on top of the food chain.

I think this truth about Vietnam is covered up for political reasons. People who lost loved ones would not be happy if they knew it was about money. Plus the desired backlash on the political powers, that were in power then. Nixon etc.

In other words the American people are better off not knowing the truth.

Aug 05, 2016
Eh I don't know about that theory. Vietnam was supplied mostly by China I think.

Aug 05, 2016
Quote -- Key word "Mostly".
China was our other competitor during the cold war and was pretty much aligned with Russia.
As you stated "mostly". When I was in Vietnam their weapon of choice was the AK47, from Russia. Nether Vietnam nor China had any money to speak of, so guess who paid for those weapons? Plus most the other weapons used by Vietnam. But like you said "mostly". I have to wonder, if Russia were actually being paid by China and Vietnam for those weapons, would Russia have gone broke?

Once again the undisputed conclusion "We Won".

Aug 05, 2016
so... using firefox, windows 10, the whole sign-in dialog is greyed-out when I click on the profile icon, couldn't sign in how I usually do; after signing in (elsewhere) and navigating back to phys.org, the profile menu (for checking profile, favorites, activity, etc.) is likewise totally greyed-out and trying to click anywhere just exits the grey from in front of the main page. Anyone else experiencing that problem?

Aug 05, 2016
late edit,

New browser windows, same problem, restart, still same problem. Also discovered a work-around – just zoom in on the page, the grey overlay doesn't enlarge, then scroll right and the profile menu is no longer covered... pretty lame feature, or bug, or whatever.
Opinion: Donald Trump's chaotic use of metaphor is a crucial part of his appeal
Facts: it's still lookin rigged rotten, and the brand is self-destructing in the process

Aug 06, 2016
The fields still accept manual input while grayed out (and if you're using masterpassword feature on firefox this will still show up as soon as you start typing)..you just have to hit enter to confirm instead of using the mouse.

As for profile menu: just click on one of your own posts to open it and set it as bookmark.

Facts: it's still lookin rigged rotten, and the brand is self-destructing in the process

The interesting thing is you get to see who in politics (at least on the republican side) is actually there because of values and who is just in it for the power and doesn't give a shit about people and country. The ratio of people with actual values seems frightfully low.
Though I'm pretty sure if the tables were reversed you'd also see a low ratio on the dem's side.

Aug 06, 2016
The fields still accept manual input while grayed out (and if you're using masterpassword feature on firefox this will still show up as soon as you start typing)..you just have to hit enter to confirm instead of using the mouse.
Thanks, AA, I just have the "remember me" box checked and the dialog pops up already filled in and I usually just click the sign-in button, but now with the whole dialog behind the gray neither the fields nor sign-in button are accessible – can't navigate to any fields using the cursor keys, and hitting enter just closes the dialog and exits the gray with no effect. Another work-around is to re-size the window making it smaller and then scroll right – that has the same effect as zooming in...

edit - just closed and opened new browser window, with the sign-in dialog still behind the gray the email field does have the focus, can't navigate to any other fields, but since the password field is already filled in hitting the enter button does work.

Aug 06, 2016
> cont'd.

I was trying keyboard navigation for the profile menu when already signed in (and hitting enter just exits the menu/gray) -- assumed that's what would happen with the sign-in dialog but you're right - with the fields auto-completed hitting enter works fine... I dunno...

Aug 06, 2016
Just for sh*ts and giggles lets elucidate on the cloud surrounding Hillary.

1. 100s of millions donated to the Clinton Foundation by foreign governments or individuals while she was Secretary of State.

2. Using a private email server, which was hacked, to conduct classified government correspondence.

3. Close to 100 "Mysterious" deaths and counting ( just 3 more in the past weeks ) of people associated with her.

4. 10s of millions of dollars of Hedge Fund donations to her campaign.

But yet we should all vote for her because Trump is "Unstable" and she is a woman.

Aug 06, 2016
Using a private email server, which was hacked, to conduct classified government correspondence

This is the only one that is proven. And the only one that can and does get hundreds if not thousand killed.
What I don't understand is why EVERY American is not OUTRAGED by it! Careless disregard of classified documents gets Americans killed period! In world war II they had a very true statement describing that kind of thing.
"Loose Lips Sink Ships"
Classified documents mostly contain the secret troop movements of our young soldiers. And are classified because if released, it is easy for the enemy to know the roads our troops will take in advance.
They can
1. set ambushes for our troops.
2. Plant IEDs along those routes etc.
3. Avoid those routes for their troop movements
4. etc.
Her careless disregard for the security of classified documents probably cost some of our soldiers their lives. And could very easily have cost that young man talked about at the DNC his life.

Aug 06, 2016
"This is the only one that is proven."

Sorry, all of my post can be backed up by Internet searches.

SHE needs to be exposed for the TRAITOR that she is.




Aug 06, 2016
"This is the only one that is proven."
Sorry, all of my post can be backed up by Internet searches.

Internet searches prove nothing. Anything can be found with an internet search, including aliens living in our bathtubs.
In light of this, your post sounds like a rant and demonized a woman who was just extremely careless with classified documents (american lives). A fact the FBI director made public in a statement on national TV.
But that intentional extreme carelessness of classified documents probably got some of our young men killed. For that we should all be OUTRAGED at Hillary Clinton!

Aug 06, 2016
2. Using a private email server, which was hacked, to conduct classified government correspondence.
Wait, in her defense, she did take steps to keep the emails from falling into the wrong hands by having her lawyers wipe the hardware clean. True, maybe a Russian hacker gained access, but at least give her credit for trying to keep the emails out of the hands of the American people. Sheesh.

Aug 06, 2016
I know you're being sarcastic but there is no defence, she intentionally kept confidental information on her server in her basement. Doing that she likely got some of our brave soldiers killed, period.

Speaking not as a republican, not as a democrat, not even as a libertarian.
Speaking not as an extremist in any way.
But speaking as a American, ALL Americans should be OUTRAGED at her intention careless disregard of classified documents security. Thus endangering our troops and perhaps even getting some of them killed.
If any of you Americans can defend this behavior, I would like to hear it.
We are not talking about the price of butter in spain, we are talking about things as sensitive as our secret troop movement, troop deployment, and even pending troop strikes against out enemies. These kind of things when leaked, gets our troops killed.

Aug 06, 2016
I really don't think that Proto was trying to defender her. Sarcasm can be more effective than just repeating the already known fatct.

Aug 06, 2016
Being forced to choose between the rotten status quo establishment and a narcissistic, dictatorial, genocidal* maniac is not a choice, really. The obvious sensible, rational choice has been, and remains Bernie. The only dumb thing he said this whole time was to support rottenness; but I won't hold having good character against him.

*correct me if I'm wrong, but I think anyone who says, "You have to take out their families" is genocidal by definition. And despite what the "unified" Republican party may allege, this is definitely not Obama's fault. This is the Republican party's dangerous stupidity.

Aug 06, 2016
Proto some of Bernie's platform makes a lot of sense and could even be considered conservative in nature. I do like his stance on campaign funding just as log as he also is willing to put strict limits on unions as well as corporations. Yes, the powers of the Federal Reserve need to be limited and he wants a full investigation of it.

But but the socialistic part of his agenda is not realistic. Student loans have already caused the cost of education to skyrocket just imagine how much higher education would cost if the government funded the system.

Aug 06, 2016
Also,the federal government's funding of education has already created mandates and censorship of education. Can you really trust the federal government to set the curriculum in our entire educational system. Just as an example, let's pick an administration that you most likely did not like. Would you like Nixon appointing people to oversee how each subject is taught.

Aug 06, 2016
I really don't think that Proto was trying to defender her. Sarcasm can be more effective than just repeating the already known fact.

Obviously he was not trying to defend her, which is why I said I knew he was being sarcastic.

Aug 06, 2016
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Aug 06, 2016
The reason that I and others like Trump is that he does not appear to be part of our ONE party system here in the US. The .1% own the world political systems and are creating chaos in order to induce the rest of of us to cede them our freedoms for safety.


Appearances can be deceiving.

Trump is a card carrying member of that 1%.

The cultivated image is at odds with reality.
The man's speeches are filled with things everyone should be afraid of. Sounds like creating chaos to me. Just sayin'.

Aug 07, 2016

Quote - The man's speeches are filled with things everyone should be afraid of. Sounds like creating chaos to me. Just sayin'.

Just sayin', I think you are letting the media interpret Trump's speeches for you.
Think about what your saying for a moment. The media paints him as a war monger (and you echo the media), which is totally at odds with Trump being a undisputed world class negotiator. War mongers don't say the things Trump says like "I will open a dialog with North Korea". And listening to him Trump wants to open negotiations with most, if not all the countries of the world.
The former police commissioner said that Trump makes a lot of our allies nervous. I guess I would be nervous also, if someone was going to take my "free lunch away"! (American Handouts To Foreign Countries)
Warren Buffett had only bad things to say about Trump. Once again those in the stock broker business are going to start paying their far share. No more free lunch!


Aug 07, 2016
Just the billions the so Clinton Foundation collected from foreign governments while she was Secretary of State should be enough to put her in jail let alone be able to run for president.

Aug 07, 2016
And a sign that he is probably affected by some maniac compulsive disorder

Aug 07, 2016
Like a steely blade in a silken sheath
We don't see what they're made of
They shout about love
But when push comes to shove
They live for the things they're afraid of
-Rush, The Weapon, Part II of Fear, Signals, 1982

Aug 07, 2016
I think you are letting the media interpret Trump's speeches for you.
No, I read them and interpreted them for myself, thanks. I'm not like you; I don't let other people interpret reality for me, and Trump is doing it more than the media do anyway.

Personally I'm voting against Putin.

Aug 07, 2016
Look at his slogan (it's right on his hat in the picture up there): by claiming he's going to "make America great again," he's implying it's not great now but was in the past.

Bullshizz. Speaking of the media, it's only in the media that it's not great now. That's the nature of the media: they emphasize the exciting, and it's exciting to believe that we're in some sort of decline. Clickbait. Fear the decline; vote for me because I'll fix the imaginary problem.

Aug 07, 2016
So you would vote for someone who knowingly jeopardized our national security and solders lives for her own personal gain eh?

Aug 07, 2016
it's only in the media that it's not great now.
Can you point to a few examples of how great things are now? Here, just fill in the blanks:

The wars (see List of ongoing armed conflicts) are great because _____
The war on drugs is great because _____
The global economy is great because _____
The US economy is great because _____
The cost of education is great because _____
The cost of healthcare is great because _____
Income inequality is great because _____
Poverty (at all, anywhere) is great because _____
The political process is great because _____
Insufficient funding for science is great because _____
The media you mentioned is great because _____

There's more when you finish with those. Please itemize the first one for each war.

Aug 07, 2016
Point to a time in the past when all of those things were better.

Also tell me how Trump is going to fix any of them.

Aug 07, 2016
Point to a time in the past when all of those things were better.
Easy. The days during the leadership of the only person to be elected president four times.
Also tell me how Trump is going to fix any of them.
What did I say in any previous posts that gives that impression? He ain't no FDR by any stretch of the imagination. Although his campaign denies it, it's been reported that during a security briefing he attended, he asked multiple times, multiple effing times, questions to the effect of "what do you mean we have nukes but we can't use them?" I don't think a smoldering cinder in nuclear winter qualifies as a fix, really – didn't mean to imply otherwise, surely. :)) hahaha, I just called you shirley :)) jus kiddin, Schneib.

Aug 07, 2016
Point to a time in the past when all of those things were better.
Easy. The days during the leadership of the only person to be elected president four times.
Hmmm, no, I don't think so.

Wars: WWII.
War on drugs: Prohibition.
Economy: The Depression.
Cost of education: more prohibitive then than now. Less schools, less government funding, and closed to just about anyone but rich WASPs.
Cost of healthcare: Crappier healthcare. See antibiotics.
Income inequality: Worse than now. The Depression.
Poverty: The Depression.
Political process: Systematic suppression of black voters in the US South without legal restraint.
Insufficient funding for science: One of the few things on your list that was better.
The media: Hearst.

There's more when you finish those.

Aug 07, 2016
Also tell me how Trump is going to fix any of them.
What did I say in any previous posts that gives that impression?
You argued against my point.

jus kiddin, Schneib.
Careful, Proto.

I watched Reagan. I damn near emigrated to Canada when they elected him.

Aug 07, 2016
Da from the 50s to the 80s there was never any problem finding a job. People of average intelligence and education could find a job that paid enough to enable one worker to support a family. Now college graduates are living in their mother's basements because they are incapable of supporting even themselves!

Aug 07, 2016
@MR, '70s stagflation.

Aug 07, 2016
"I watched Reagan. I damn near emigrated to Canada when they elected him."

Oh Dear, What a horrific loss that might have been

Aug 07, 2016
"Cost of education: more prohibitive then than now. Less schools, less government funding, and closed to just about anyone but rich WASPs. "

Today's educational system, what a joke. People are entering "College" today with 8th grade reading and math skills.

Aug 07, 2016
Schneib, the Great Depression was from 1929 to 1939 – the economy tanked bad in '29, neither FDR's nor Obama's fault. FDR's leadership as president starting in 1933 and lasting until 1945 restored faith in the economy and helped turn the disaster wrought by banks and markets into whole new deal, and gave people hope, prosperity, and a great sense of national [social] security. And WWII? Again, not FDR's fault, it was the harsh conditions and political/economic instability in Germany. Banks/markets again. And nationalism and alliances. Seems to be a common theme there, for all the world's troubles, doesn't there.

Aug 07, 2016
jus kiddin, Schneib.
Careful, Proto.
Schneib, there's a good chance either Donald the Greater or Her Majesty Crooked Rottenness will be president soon. I doubt either one would think highly of me. In other threads I've railed the CIA and NSA and the military industrial complex in general. All due respect, you need to get in line. In the immortal words of Alfred E. Neuman, "What, me worry?"

Aug 07, 2016
You argued against my point.
Yes, just against your point that "it's only in the media that things aren't great now," which isn't quite the same thing as saying Trump will make anything "great again," And I think the media fails miserably when it comes to investigating and truthfully reporting *why* things aren't great now, for what that's worth. Anyway, it's the Donald's dumb slogan, sorry about the confusion.

Aug 07, 2016
Trump likes to say we are in decline, but fails to compare the conditions Obama inherited from Dubya, to what we enjoy now. Obama, with no help from the Republicans, got us out of the Great Republican Economic Meltdown.

Maybe if the Republicans paid for their Bush Wars, we would have some respect for them.

Aug 07, 2016
@Proto, the point wasn't about FDR. It was about how times weren't better then.

If you take points out of context, you'll make silly mistakes like you're making now, and probably piss people off like you're pissing me off now, too.

This is why I don't talk about politics much.

Aug 07, 2016
eporting *why* things aren't great

The issue I have with such blatherings as "make America great again" is: What does that even mean for a country to be 'great' (or not)?
It's yet another of these hot air balloons that can mean anything but actually means nothing. So everyone latches onto what (S)HE thinks it means. It's practically a televangelist approach where everybody can imagine their own (mutually exclusive) versions of their gods, and still think whenever someone says the word "god" they are talking about what they have in mind.

However, if politicians want to achieve anything tey have to become quantitative/definite at some point about what they actually mean. How else would it be implemented? Throwing nukes at others is certainly not gonna make America 'great'.

Aug 07, 2016
There is only one good that Trump could possibly do, as President, and that's expose AGWism for the lie it is and put an end to it. But, no matter how desperately humanity needs this, imposing him on us will be far worse.

Aug 07, 2016
Schneib, under FDR there was only one war and he didn't start it. Way better than how many armed conflicts are currently taking place.

Prohibition didn't last for 50 years, law enforcement had direct constitutional authorization commensurate with the constitutional rights guaranteed to the people to freely choose what and what not to consume, and the number of people jailed and/or killed was far less and in far fewer countries (obviously), and jails weren't overflowing with non-violent offenders, and it wasn't costing tax payers millions and billions of dollars over the course of a half century.

cont'd >

Aug 07, 2016
> cont'd
The systemic racism... okay, there weren't protests taking place in every major city in the world like there currently are, but it's really too soon to say things are better now yet.

The economy – eventually, thanks in large part to FDR's efforts, people back then could afford a house, food, and education for their children, and medical care (arguably better now because science but you agreed that funding was better then), and still have money leftover to save in the bank; so, way better than now.

Aug 07, 2016
Let's see how Obama did compared to Bush.

Stock Market?

Jobs?

swindles/scandals, (e.g. ENRON, Worldcom, Blackwater, Halliburton, California electricity)

World opinion?


Aug 07, 2016
Bah. My parents lived through that and the stories they tell don't make it any better than it is now- in a few ways better, in a lot of ways worse. What FDR did was lead, and he did it better than any recent President. That's what was good about FDR.

The times you're talking about weren't during FDR's administration; they were right after the end of WWII. You can chalk that up to FDR (and I do), but always remember this: it took them thirty years, but eventually the rich took it all away during the Nixon administration, and what was left they took during the Reagan administration.

Then Billy came along and we got another big dose of good economy; it didn't take them nearly as long that time, they used the same trick as during the Reagan administration (see S&L crisis) and took it away as soon as they got the Presidency again (see dot com crash), and at the end of that they took the next target down (see housing crisis).

[contd]

Aug 07, 2016
This is why I don't talk about politics much.
@DaSchneib
too right

it's too subjective, for starters

then you add in the whole "politicians lie" thing and you even have to question what they're saying as legitimate (or is it a tactic to elicit popularity or gain attention?)

meh

scrap them all and put Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye in office

Aug 07, 2016
[contd]
Obama's fixed the economy again, as much as he could given the efforts of the Reprehensible Congress to keep it screwed up, and things are starting to get moving. The only questions now are, what will the next maneuver to fleece us all out of our money be (healthcare is my bet), and how long until they spring it (right away if we get Trump, or after Hillary).

And at that, it's still better here than anywhere else. Possible exceptions include parts of Australia, much of Britain, and parts of Scandinavia, none of which I'd care to live in because of the weather. Canada's about as good (or bad) as the US at this point, and has the weather problem too. I probably left somewhere out and I might not be doing Australia entire justice on the weather thing.

Could things be better? Sure. Have they ever been? I doubt it.
[contd]

Aug 07, 2016
[contd]
When someone starts telling me how much "better" things "useta be," I look for what they're selling. When they start telling me how they're gonna fix everything without ever getting specific, I look for where they've got the aces, up their sleeve, in their palm, or under the table.

I don't think Hillary's gonna make all that great a President, but I know she'll be better than Cheeto Jebus there. And at least she won't bow down before Pooty. At this point I think that's about as good as it gets and I see no point in whining about it.

Aug 07, 2016
meh

scrap them all and put Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye in office
That'll be the day. And I'm not so sure about Nye; Tyson I'd vote for in a heartbeat.

To rehash an old joke, Picard/Riker 2016.

Aug 07, 2016
And one last point: the first step in fixing things is to admit something's wrong. And in that, I think we're doing better than we ever have. And I'll point to mass demonstrations over police killing black men; it's painful, but it has to be done.

You don't know me but I'm your brother
I was born here in this living hell
You don't know my kind in your world
Fairly soon, the time will tell
You, telling me the things you're gonna do for me
I ain't blind and I don't like what I think I see
Takin' it to the streets

Aug 07, 2016
[politics] it's too subjective, for starters
Yeah, but there's violence inherent in the system.

And we're being repressed.

Nice to see you, CS.

Aug 07, 2016
Of course we're being repressed. The thing is, it's not working very well. The Internet has brought open communications to all; and now what used to be little stories that didn't get told are getting headlines. And that's as it should be.

Before a revolution can succeed, the old guard must die off. Unless one advocates killing them, that means waiting.

Aug 08, 2016
"I think I am, actually humble. I think I'm much more humble than you would understand."
Trump

Aug 08, 2016
Nice to see you, CS.
@Protoplasmix
same back to you... How ya been?
Yeah, but there's violence inherent in the system.

And we're being repressed
yeah

IMHO - until the people learn to stand together against abuse, we will always have a government that is willing to exercise power on their own behalf for their own purpose not necessarily for the sake of the people

i tend to talk (argue) with my senators & representative regularly
LOL

and like DaSchneib says above: we either gotta wait for the old guard to die off or be willing to make some drastic changes

at least things are changing a lot faster than it has


Aug 08, 2016
[contd]
When someone starts telling me how much "better" things "useta be,"

But your not old enough to understand, you only see your lifetime as we all do.
Trump is 70, I am 69, so I know what he is talking about when Trump says "Make America Great Again!"
Please keep in mind I am NOT saying he can "Make America Great Again", I am only telling you what he means.
In 1965 I graduated from High School. At that time with only a high school diploma I could take a top paying job, quit it, and the same day go get anouther.
One day I did that 3 times and two days later went back to first place and they rehired me.
In 1972 we put a man on the moon, now we hitchhike with the Russians just to get to the space station.
Back then there was a project called hyperplane that was suppose to soar into outer space but it and all the other BIG projects got canceled because we started running out of money.
When Trump is talking about making America great again that what he means.

Aug 08, 2016
Schneib, under FDR there was only one war and he didn't start it. Way better than how many armed conflicts are currently taking place.


(Not butting in on your conversation, just a general observation): Call me cynical. But the formulation of 'only' one war makes me queasy. The way wars have become "business as usual" for the US has been freaking me out for my entire life. That's just not normal (and certainly not 'great').

Aug 08, 2016
"1984" came early to the United States.

Aug 08, 2016
@Protoplasmix
same back to you... How ya been?
Not bad, thanks. I guess I need to do better with [/sarc], [/humor], [/joking] tags where appropriate...
Yeah, but there's violence inherent in the system.
And we're being repressed
yeah
yeah!

And from now on I want you all to call me "Dennis"
Dennis the Constitutional Peasant
[/joking]

Aug 08, 2016
The way wars have become "business as usual" for the US has been freaking me out for my entire life. That's just not normal (and certainly not 'great').


No it certainly is not normal nor great. Perhaps you need to see a shrink! :-)

(Oh, that's not what you mean)

Aug 08, 2016
But the formulation of 'only' one war makes me queasy. The way wars have become "business as usual" for the US has been freaking me out for my entire life. That's just not normal (and certainly not 'great').
I guess I should've qualified it by saying "only one *world* war" at that time. War is atrocious, and you're absolutely right, it's a "racket" and it's been one for a long, long time: War is a Racket by Smedley Butler

War should be avoided every bit as much as nuclear weapons. There's no reason for it in this day and age other than to maintain the old, old status quo.

[/no joke]

Aug 08, 2016
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Aug 08, 2016
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Aug 08, 2016
War is a Racket by Smedley Butler

Thanks for the link!

Yes, I've argued the selfsame (even on these comment sections) a couple of times. Soldiers are thugs for industrialists. The young men and women who join up may not see themselves as such - but in the end they're duped into it by any number of promises: destiny, god's will, free education, a cool dress uniform to impress the ladies, peer pressure, a job/pay, 'our country must be defended by going to war halfway around the world', and whatnot. The list is endless and one or the other reason will snag most anyone.

That their intentions when joining may have been pure doesn't figure into the end result. It's just the difference between voluntary manslaughter and second (or first) degree murder - and to the victims there is no difference.

Aug 08, 2016
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Aug 08, 2016
He is saving Kim Kardashian for Secretary of Defense.

Don Junior gets Treasury.

Aug 08, 2016
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Aug 08, 2016
@LifeBasedLogic – do you like cats? I like cats. They taste like chicken.

There, if you wanna give out 1-stars without explanation go ahead on this one. Since you say "life is most important in life," you really should get one, it's fun.

Aug 08, 2016
I've argued the selfsame (even on these cment sections) a couple of times. Soldiers are thugs for industrialists.


And you're a leech - living free at the cost of those who have sacrificed their very lives(the ones you call thugs).
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!
Except for leeches like you. Even a dog has enough sense not to bite the hand hat feeds them.

Aug 08, 2016
Something to ponder:

You *yourself* argue that politicians are corrupt - yet you think they employ soldiers for the good of mankind? Are you seeing the contradiction in this? Soldiers don't go forth on their own. They are expendable and cheap tools.

It's nice that you've eaten up the freedom/democracy/"soldiers are heroes" propaganda. But don't expect anyone with a brain cell to agree with it.

Aug 08, 2016
Not bad, thanks. I guess I need to do better with [/sarc], [/humor], [/joking] tags where appropriate...
@protoplas...erm, i mean Dennis - (at least i didn't say Old Woman)

yeah... some of us are just so literal and can't spot a joke if it's not running for office or if it's not labeled, or being posted by the eu, benji and certain others who're known for their crackpottery

(snicker)

Tis a sad day indeed when any passing ruffian can say NI to an old woman, eh?
NI!
NI!
I like cats. They taste like chicken
sweet chicken...too sweet tasting for me
i am not a fan of cats, but i do prefer them over humans [do i need to label that one?]

Aug 08, 2016
Soldiers are thugs for industrialists. The young men and women who join up may not see themselves as such - but...
@AA_P
and as i said before, you are wrong because not all soldiers/military members are combatants, nor are all of them working as you claim, like
Soldiers don't go forth on their own
some are medical corp, and hold rank almost exclusively because of education or training, and aren't really all that "military" regardless of their rank, uniform or other contractual obligations

there is a lot more, but until you know something about the Geneva convention, law, UCMJ, etc and actively being in combat/on active duty serving in the military, you will not understand
(it is required by law, UCMJ, and contract for a service-member to not only disobey an unlawful order, but to be able to differentiate between what is lawful and not and to report said unlawful orders - a product of the 'Nam era issues you dislike so much)

Aug 08, 2016
A couple of points:
1. John McCain is the most irresponsible in this - he subjected the US to Sarah Palin, who also speaks pure gibberish, and is also completely unfit.
2. Trump is a psycho. 100% psycho. His delusion level is simply off the charts. Trump's gibberish abilities pale when compared to Palin, but he easily matches her in the unfitness category.
3. I can tell by the posts above the anti-science trolls on my ignore list are the trump supporters. The surprising exception is the ghost of otto. At times otto's ghost can come across as a person with an operational brain. His posting on this article reveal a much sadder condition. He obviously thinks that Trump might actually be fit for something. This represents a complete mental failure.
4. I was young enough to recover from Reaganomics - I can't say the same now. Trumponomics would be very, very, very, very, very painful for ALL OF US. Including delusional psychotic Trump supporters.

Aug 08, 2016
scrap them all and put Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye in office

LOL. Stumpid wants Bill Nye, the big charlatan, in office.
https://www.youtu...5iBTkvMw

Aug 08, 2016
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!
says the wingless earthbound misfit, impoverished and confined to economic floundering in a sea of electromagnetic surveillance, security, and rapid response.

Freedom is a state of mind, even in the most confining circumstances. Freedom is every bit as free as being born. Best never to let anything take it from you, especially not fear and war.

Aug 08, 2016
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Aug 08, 2016
FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!

Freedom is a state of mind, even in the most confining circumstances. Freedom is every bit as free as being born. Best never to let anything take it from you, especially not fear and war.


I wonder if a leach knows it is a leech living off others blood.? I have been to communist countries and 3rd world countries. In many of those countries you and I could be shoot for voicing our opinion like this, Like the song goes -
"You don't know what you have till it's gone!"
Please save your daydreams about being free even in dungeon cell. Only someone who has never left the security of their mother womb says such things.


Aug 09, 2016
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Aug 09, 2016
some are medical corp, and hold rank almost exclusively because of education or training, and aren't really all that "military" regardless of their rank, uniform or other contractual obligations

Well, a thug organisation (be it a military or the mafia or what-have-you) isn't all about the guy actually pounding his fist into the victim. It's also about keeping it running smoothly so that the guy can pound his fist into the victim more effectively. This includes logistics (and yes. also medical personnell to bandage the fist so it can pound on as soon as possible). An army that consists of all riflemen would be very ineffective.

The medical staff (like the VA hospitals) also serve another purpose: They are a draw for recruitment, since you're getting medical benefits. If someone wants to be a nurse or a doctor they can be that in the civil sector - no problem. But don't kid yourself: The purpose of a doctor (or a chaplain) in the army is to make killing more efficient.

Aug 09, 2016
Seems a lot of the belief in science is faith. I have heard time and time again how theories are really facts.
I myself love science but realize a theory is just that a theory. How many times have we heard of a theory being turned over, that the scientific community swore was a fact?
If you think about how little of the universe we know is it surprising that a blind faith in science should so often prove to be the undoing of men?
Lets use a little science and math to try to figure out how much of the universe we do know.
68% dark energy ???
27% dark matter ???
Total 95% unknown
What percentage of the 5% that's left do we know and understand?
Wild guess if you count how much we know about quantum physics and the molecular process of life itself. Maybe 1.5% of that 5%
So a very rough estimate on the optimistic side is we know about 1.5% of the universe. Based on that, how can we be sure of hardly anything, except by faith?


Aug 09, 2016
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Aug 09, 2016
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Aug 09, 2016
it is required by law, UCMJ, and contract for a service-member to not only disobey an unlawful order

Missed this one, but I have an opinion on it, so here goes ;-) :
I'm aware that military personnel have to disobey an unlawful order - but how often does that happen? If anyone followed that law then the US would have been in exactly zero armed conflicts since WWII (that would what...about 20 wars less?).

The cases of law are so - intentionally- convoluted that not even those with a full law degree (let alone someone in their late teens fresh out of highschool) are sure what is lawful or not. And most don't care. Orders are orders. A paychek is a paychek. The higher-ups surely know what they're doing, right?

Look at what happens to those that actually expose unlawful doings (Manning, anyone?). There's a lot of pressure not to excercise that duty to disobey while there's none to just not question and do what you're told.

Aug 09, 2016
But don't kid yourself: The purpose of a doctor (or a chaplain) in the army is to make killing more efficient
@AA_P
actually, no, they're not.
this is like saying the parking lot security guard at Boeing is there to insure the safety of air flight

and i've met many a chaplain who is anti-war/anti-violence

the reason they are there is to make the organization more effective overall - they have nothing at all to do with killing and are protected by the Geneva Convention (for those who actually accept said convention and abide by said laws)

like i said: you don't actually understand the organization and it's laws, set-up and how it's run
but how often does that happen?
a hell of a lot more often than you think - if you were in it, you would understand that
i can't actually help you with the experience though, but things changed drastically after 'Nam

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
The cases of law are so - intentionally- convoluted that not even those with a full law degree (let alone someone in their late teens fresh out of highschool) are sure what is lawful or not
some are like this, true, but most are taught in Basic and Advanced training, as well as all during your career
especially any combat related laws, BTW...
And most don't care. Orders are orders. A paychek is a paychek. The higher-ups surely know what they're doing
wrong
now that you are held liable for your choices in the military (changed b/c of 'Nam) it is very important to know what you can/can't do, etc
they don't want automatons, they want thinking people who can make snap decisions (otherwise they would train attack dogs and be more successful)

in this particular regard you have formed an opinion and you refuse to accept any evidence contrary to your opinion

confirmation bias is something you trained to get rid of

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
Look at what happens to those that actually expose unlawful doings (Manning, anyone?)
and this never happens in non-military organizations?
there are never any outliers?
Edward Snowden?

again: quit letting your bias see evidence that you want while ignoring the evidence from the whole picture
thanks
There's a lot of pressure not to excercise that duty to disobey while there's none to just not question and do what you're told
if that were the case, we would have a lot of dead firefighters alone, so just being a FF in the military debunks your argument
they have the right to say NO to entering an unsafe situation, even though that is the entire job, really

if your argument was true, we would see a disproportionate amount of dead due to the whole "follow orders- don't think" argument you put forth


Aug 09, 2016
AAP, Rumpy is right on this one.

I suggest you take your theories to your local Vet Center, which takes in those most affected by the violence they endured.

I do not understand how you can be so ignorant of your own society. Ever been out of your house?

Aug 09, 2016
this is like saying the parking lot security guard at Boeing is there to insure the safety of air flight

He's there to increase the revenue of the business. in the end the aim of anyone working for a oranization (be it a company or a government or a criminal organization) is to further the aim of that particular organization. And the aim of a military is to bring weapons to bear - let's make no mistake about this.

If the purpose of a military were purely defensive (which I would even condone) then have a couple hundred nukes but no tanks, no ships, no soldiers with rifles, no...
That would serve the purpose.


Aug 09, 2016
and i've met many a chaplain who is anti-war/anti-violence

I think you're misunderstanding me on this. I am fully convinced that not a single soldier thinks of him as a thug. I am fully convinced that almost all have the best (and very honorable!) intentions. I am also fully convinced that every chaplain and doctor in the military is there to save lives and do good.

What I'm saying is that what people are convinced of doing and what they are actually used for are two different things. And in the end it's the effect that counts - not the intentions.

"The road to hell..." and all that.

they don't want automatons, they want thinking people

Are they getting them, though? I don't see it. Theory and reality are somewhat at odds, here (and I believe that politicians bank on this being the case).

Aug 09, 2016
I'm aware that military personnel have to disobey an unlawful order - but how often does that happen?
Hopefully almost never, but if you're told, "those aren't civilians, they're enemy combatants in their street clothes, take 'em out," then I dunno. The law is a civil thing, e.g., "don't kill or you'll be put on trial and, if found guilty, you'll be put to death." The only thing civil about war is a truce.

Can you imagine Full Metal Trump?

Pres. Trump: Take out their families, too. That's an order.
Gen. Joker: How can we shoot women and children?
Pres. Trump: Easy, just don't lead 'em as much. The ones that run are jihadis. The ones standing still are well-disciplined jihadis.

Aug 09, 2016
in this particular regard you have formed an opinion and you refuse to accept any evidence contrary to your opinion

Maybe. I have had many face-to-face interchanges with US military personel (about a decade of Square Dance...don't ask)
...and also with german miltary personel - since we had a conscription system until a few years ago many of my friends did their stint in the army. Yes, the theory is taught. Is it actually practised? I haven't heard anyone recount a single instance.

and this never happens in non-military organizations?

Of course it does. But because X also does something that doesn't make it right for Y to do it, too. (And remember: when military personel don't refuse follow illegal orders people get killed and countries get obliterated. In a company you might get something like the Volkswagen scandal - tops. We're talking different orders of magnitude in terms of impact, here)

Aug 09, 2016
Sic Ira on him. Have 'im mix up a little gris-gris to keep him from trolling PO.


Life is truthfully alive and dead is past being the most important thing.

Anyhoo, as to siccing me on him, all I ever got from him is,,,,,

"life is important and truth is pretty important too and everybody on the physorg is dead so they are not so important and if they are not already dead then they are lying."
Or some such stuffs. He is not very good at coming up with new material so,,,,,,

After a day of that, I just plain lost interest.

Aug 09, 2016
If the purpose of a military were purely defensive (which I would even condone) then have a couple hundred nukes but no tanks, no ships, no soldiers with rifles, no...
That would serve the purpose
@AA_P
no, it wouldn't - a nuke is a deterrent, sure, but without the threat of troops (especially highly trained troops) then they're not likely to be used
nuking your neighbor doesn't mean you won't suffer consequences (you should know that)
you're reaching with that one
in the end the aim of anyone working for a oranization
and i never said the guard wasn't there to increase the revenue of the business, i said your argument is like equating a parking lot security guard with an air marshal and the FAA

normally i respect your opinion even when i disagree, but i don't see you doing a lot of homework or research on this one...

you've already made up your mind so no evidence brought to refute will change it

Aug 09, 2016
AAP is once again displaying the ignorance of inexperience.

The action looks very different while in it than from the bleachers.

Aug 09, 2016
@AAP cont'd
What I'm saying is ... it's the effect that counts - not the intentions
i understood what you were saying, i just don't agree with it
maybe i am the biased one because of experience on this - i know a lot more about what happens behind the scenes than you do and i've been well versed in the UCMJ, Geneva... etc

Are they getting them, though? I don't see it. Theory and reality are somewhat at odds, here
yes, they're getting them
you can't see it because you're basing your arguments on old accounts, 'Nam era information, media and movies and etc... this isn't something you've looked into very much, sorry
and old accounts you mentioned aren't the same, nor is the German military the same as the US military

the US military is not what it used to be, or the same as everyone else

if you want to talk about military in general, then we can, but it then leads to vague non-applicable arguments lacking specificity regarding the topics and the US MIL

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
Of course it does
my point was: when you see this statistic in anything but the military, you actually look into it and determine if it is an outlier or it is common
when dealing with the MIL you've chosen outlying anomalies as the norm in your belief that it must be the norm... thousands of orders are given daily in the MIL
daily
is Manning the anomaly or the norm? did you bother to check out some hard facts?
i would predict a NO from you on that, which was my point
We're talking different orders of magnitude in terms of impact, here
yes and no
companies ignoring the scientific evidence have f*cked our atmosphere with CO2 pollution
... but that is only a species wide catastrophe, right?
not relevant to your point?
LOL

the MIL have lead the way in a lot of things culturally speaking (for the US)
but i understand the X and Y analogy, i just think you're not looking at the whole picture because of personal feelings

Aug 09, 2016
Once again, it is experience which gives real knowledge, not observation from afar.

Without experience all is just a guess.

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P
one more point about this
Of course it does. But because X also does something that doesn't make it right for Y to do it, too
the MIL is also a reflection of society and the culture that it serves

it is representative of the US, and in most ways you will see the exact same thing happening in the MIL that you see in the US, though in a lot of ways it leads the charge (integration, freedom of religion, etc)

just because you think it shouldn't happen in the MIL doesn't mean it won't happen, especially now that so much of the MIL non combat jobs are being run like a corporation more than the military (See USAF and high tech jobs)

the biggest negative with the MIL is also it's biggest positive: it's ultimately lead by civilian politicians (POTUS, Congress)

there is where your argument has merit in it's "use and intent"

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P
Yes, the theory is taught. Is it actually practised? I haven't heard anyone recount a single instance
had to put this separate:
1- the German MIL is not the same as the US MIL, so i can't speak for them or on their behalf, even though i've worked with a lot of them

2- in the US MIL - it is taught and practised, especially in certain jobs like Law Enforcement, Fire dept, Medical and more (all medical personnel are MED first and the officers typically are the least MIL people you've ever met and only hold rank out of respect for their education and training in MED - think MASH, it's not too far off the mark, really LMFAO)

case in point:
use of deadly force when protecting highly classified assets like nukes means (to you) shoot first, ask questions later
however, if a GEN from the MIL comes by and doesn't have the requisite passwords, you don't "shoot first", this is also applicable to unknowns and civilians
KNOW the situation before applying force, ALWAYS

Aug 09, 2016
Hopefully almost never, but if you're told, "those aren't civilians, they're enemy combatants in their street clothes, take 'em out," then I dunno
@Proto
in order to fire upon people in civilian clothing you MUST:
-observe hostile intent/a potential threat
-see a weapon designating them a viable target
-know said civilian is a combatant through reliable intel and/or knowledge, and validate said intel as well as the identity of said combatant
-be cleared to engage (dependent upon location)

there is more, but a lot depends upon situation/location

you can be told to fire at a civilian, but if you do, you take your life into your hands unless the above requirements are met

a lot of things changed after 'Nam, which is why in Basic, Advanced training and always, always before deployment and especially an OP you're briefed on the rules of engagement, Geneva, UCMJ etc as well as suspected targets

Aug 09, 2016
no, it wouldn't - a nuke is a deterrent, sure, but without the threat of troops (especially highly trained troops) then they're not likely to be used

If they're the only option you have? Sure. It's like in poker (some even call it the nuclear option there): If the opponent goes all in on every hand you don't dare call him unless you have a really strong hand yourself.
nuking your neighbor doesn't mean you won't suffer consequences

That doesn't really matter-since the attacking neighbor gets obliterated (which one did you have in mind? Canada or Mexico?). That's one scenario they don't want. That you suffer some fallout as a result of that doesn't figure in this. War is waged for a 'gain'. If that gain is bought at a 100% loss to yourself then that is not a winning strategy for any politician.

Aug 09, 2016
When is the last time Donald Trump has been convicted of killing someone or even seriously threatened to kill someone?
Do world class negotiators ,who sell best selling books on negotiation, often kill people or advocate war before negotiations? A true world class negotiator who takes pride in his negotiating skills (especially one who is narcissistic) would figure he can ALWAYS get the best deal by negotiating. But that's not what the media says and for some reason you agree with everything the media says about Trump.
You just think you're so smart but in reality you're just parrots, repeating what the media and others who control your irrational thoughts like a puppet. How about this one for you to believe and repeat. Trump is actually a evil alien from the planet Zor.
Its just like your statements on disobeying illegal orders in the military. I did it in Vietnam and they threatened to court martial me for it. But I knew that was not going happen. And I am sure others did it to.

Aug 09, 2016
parking lot security guard with an air marshal and the FAA

I'm not equating the guy who builds mines for a paycheck with the one who lays them. But I AM saying they are both in the same business and the former can't just close their eyes to what they are doing.

It's like these essays you get to write in school (I think everyone has written at least one on that subject): Do scientists have a responsibility for the application of their findings? Or are they completely innocent of any and all applications? Especially when they are expressly working on weapons?


however, if a GEN from the MIL comes by and doesn't have the requisite passwords, you don't "shoot first",

That's a very tame example. As a counterexample there have been cases where people carrying white flags were gunned down for fear they were carrying explosives. The real problems are in applications "in the field". Not at home where all niceties can be observed.


Aug 09, 2016
It's sad but true that the MSM and the US educational system controls the minds of the masses, "educated" or not. From immigration to the police, the goal is to totally change the system to one that favors the puppet masters.

Aug 09, 2016
I'm not equating the guy who builds mines for a paycheck with the one who lays them
@AA_P
actually, you are by your above argument
... you're equating the MED/Fire with combat arms: we work regardless of nationality, race, religion, sex, status (enemy or friendly) etc - this is required by the Geneva convention, our UCMJ, and most country operational parameters

-so saying that just because they wear a uniform and get paid by the same person the combat arms folk do makes them "both in the same business" is the exact same thing as saying a Boeing parking lot security guard is equivalent to Air Marshalls/FAA just because they all deal with airplanes

sorry

i'm willing to accept certain aspects of your argument because i am willing to follow the evidence (there are folk who don't obey the law, thus support your argument) but you're demonstrating that you're not capable of reciprocation on this particular issue because of your beliefs sans evidence

why?

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
That doesn't really matter-since the attacking neighbor gets obliterated
if you use weaponised nukes, eventually you will too... which is the reason there are constraints on who can have them now
That you suffer some fallout as a result of that doesn't figure in this
delusional thinking... yes, it does, even to the military
it's one reason we didn't eradicate the former USSR
That's a very tame example. As a counterexample there have been cases where people carrying white flags were gunned down
no, it is a very COMMON example that happens far, far more often than anyone knows (if not daily), which is why i used it

and again, you bring anomalous examples to the table as justification of your own beliefs
now, specifically i've noted i'm talking post 'Nam era, and whereas accidents (or stupidity/illegal acts) happen, they aren't the NORM, they're anomalous

i can also show anomalous results for other things, does that make it the norm?
nope

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P
The real problems are in applications "in the field"
no, it's not
how many total operations have been run by the US MIL since 'Nam?
how many of the anomalous gunning of people as you state above have happened in the same time period?

.

lets say that there are 100 cases of people being gunned down unnecessarily or illegally in the past decade alone (not true, but lets assume for the moment)

... considering there has been roughly 100 missions a day for the years in Afghanistan alone, IN AFG alone, those statistics are anomalous considering the overall average

this is the point i'm trying to make to you WRT facts vrs your belief in what is real in the MIL

(and the hundreds of OPS a day isn't far fetched... it's likely higher considering SPEC-OPS and associated INTEL or alphabet agency OPS in the area, MIL related)

Aug 09, 2016
The agenda of the puppet masters is to replace all of the US middle class with a welfare class whose only allegiance is to the hand that protects and feeds them i.e. the government.

Aug 09, 2016
@AA_P
As a counterexample there have been cases where people carrying white flags were gunned down for fear they were carrying explosives
now consider my last post for a moment: and that is extrapolating the stat's from only a decade in one country ...

now do you see where i am going with this?
that comment, more than anything else you posted, demonstrates your willingness to ignore facts for the sake of a belief

you take the anonymous incident and consider it the "norm" because you want to believe that

... and yet you're able to argue science against the pseudoscience crowd, anti-AGW idiots, etc when they do the exact same thing?

and you can't see this in yourself?

this is one major point i am trying to make WRT your perspective on the MIL

does every member contribute to the smooth operation of the whole?
yes
does that make them all killers?
no

don't let the anomalous spikes in the stat's decide your belief... follow THE EVIDENCE

Aug 09, 2016
saying that just because they wear a uniform and get paid by the same person the combat arms folk do makes them "both in the same business"

Well, just ask yourself: why are they paying for doctors in uniforms? For humanitarian reasons? Hardly. If they were to do this for humanitarian reasons then they'd establish a medical organization that isn't military and send them where needed.

Having doctors in the military is a business move. It makes the rest of the operation cheaper (i.e. more effective).

yes, it does, even to the military

I meant: To the thinking of your adversary. Not to your own. It doesn't figure in THEIR thinking that you suffer from fallout after obliterating them.

And I'm not at all convinced that someone (e.g. a bomber pilot or someone flying an armed drone) gets the full information to decide whether what he's doing is lawful. He gets a target. Maybe a reason. But he has no way of double-checking whether the reason he's given is truthful.

Aug 09, 2016
AAP, this is not your field, obviously.

Why do you persist in advertising ignorance and prejudice?

And 166, if you are so smart, tell us who they are, . . them puppet-masters.

Aug 09, 2016
why are they paying for doctors in uniforms?
@AA_P
because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to use existing materials already in stock and insure they're on site when needed than to pay outrageously for a service that is not capable of being present when needed

Having doctors in the military is a business move. It makes the rest of the operation cheaper
i never said this wasn't the case

i said that equating them with combat arms is stupid
And I'm not at all convinced that someone (e.g. a bomber pilot or someone flying an armed drone) gets the full information to decide whether what he's doing is lawful
like i said:
ya get training, briefings, etc... this mission (target) would be briefed to freakin death before they ever leave the runway, PLUS even targets of opportunity are mentioned PLUS rules of engagement, Law, legal obligations, etc

all on paper

it's part of the mission brief before you ever leave

back l8er
chores

Aug 09, 2016
Oops, sorry COCO, for the unintended one rating. Sloppy fingers this AM.

Aug 09, 2016
"And 166, if you are so smart, tell us who they are, . . them puppet-masters."

Well let's try Soros and Buffet just to name 2.

Or this for number 3 https://en.wikipe...rg_Group

Aug 09, 2016
Look Gkam the very fact that the Koch brothers don't support him should clue you into how good Trump will be for this country.

Aug 09, 2016
First the media was telling us not to nominate him because he is not really a Republican or a Conservative. In fact, he committed the horrible crime of supporting Democrats and even befriending Hillary. Now he is cast as a lunatic that will destroy the world.

Aug 09, 2016
First the media was telling us not to nominate him because he is not really a Republican or a Conservative. In fact, he committed the horrible crime of supporting Democrats and even befriending Hillary.
Now he is cast as a lunatic that will destroy the world.


But isn't that what world class negotiators do(Trump)? (Destroy worlds)? Especially ones that take so much pride in their negotiating skills that they think they can solve any problem thru negotiation.
Obviously he is a security risk. After all didn't he mention the secret about Clinton's intentional careless disregard for our classified documents?

Aug 09, 2016
RD you had better be careful about sarcasm on this site because it goes way above everyone's head if they think that you are supporting their position.

Aug 09, 2016
Note to Everyone:

If you think that it is a good idea that the corporate owned media selects our presidents be sure to vote for HILLARY!

Aug 09, 2016
"Now he is cast as a lunatic that will destroy the world."
-------------------------------

He took on that role by himself.

Aug 09, 2016
"corporate owned media selects our presidents"
-----------------------------------------

The Dubya did not work out so well for Fox, did he?

Now, Ailes has been unmasked as a slimer, and the entire Fox sewer will have to be cleaned.

Aug 09, 2016
Having doctors in the military is a business move. It makes the rest of the operation cheaper (i.e. more effective)
Uh no its cheaper to outsource medical services. The medical personnel are there because they are all subject to deployment if necessary.

Aug 09, 2016
Having doctors in the military is a business move. It makes the rest of the operation cheaper (i.e. more effective)
Uh no it would be cheaper to outsource peacetime medical services. The personnel are there because they are all subject to deployment if necessary.

Its more practical to keep them trained and available than to try and do this when war breaks out.

Wow double post. Hi julian!

Aug 09, 2016
Dont believe me? Thats ok. I understand.

"This article argues that overestimated cost savings and global changes negatively impacted the outsourcing process. (14) Not only did the cost savings fail to materialize, outsourcing caused other tangible losses. (15) The government lost personnel experience and continuity, (16) along with operational control, (17) by moving to contractors. Although insourcing (18) will not be a miracle cost-saving tool, performing more functions with federal employees instead of contractors will better equip the government to operate in current global conditions."

Aug 09, 2016
Hay, did you see Trump manipulate the media "for free publicity" when talking about 2nd amendment.? -)
While never really saying anything :-)

Aug 09, 2016
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Aug 09, 2016
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Aug 09, 2016
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Aug 09, 2016
"Can I get a purple heart for the number of pub crawls I've "endured"?"
-------------------------------------

Dementia.

Aug 09, 2016
Trump is the candidate of the stupids, and is counting on the smarts not showing up to vote.

Typical populist.

Aug 09, 2016
I like the "Il Duce" pose best.

Aug 09, 2016
Da Schneib

Trump is the candidate of the stupids, and is counting on the smarts not showing up to vote. .


I can't believe you think the smart ones are the ones manipulated by the media.
On the other hand, I am sure you think you're smart because you are manipulated by the media!
Or do you think the media is taking their cues from you?

Aug 10, 2016
because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to use existing materials already in stock and insure they're on site when needed than to pay outrageously for a service that is not capable of being present when needed

Which is exactly my point.

i said that equating them with combat arms is stupid

There are degrees of culpability, sure. But they are in the *military*. That is: they are fully aware that they further the purpose of a *military*. That's something that cannot be ignored. The guy who pilots a ship for the express purpose of landing troops can't just say "I just bring 'em here...I'm in no way enabling the invasion because I'm not setting foot in the country or holding a rifle"


Aug 10, 2016
ya get training, briefings, etc...

Here's the thing, though: A soldier of a foreign country that isn't on the soil of that country by the express authorization of the legitimate government of that country is an invader. Legitimate invasion can only happen within international law (i.e. UN approval). Here's an interesting article on this
https://www.rt.co...egal-un/
Every soldier that went into e.g. Iraq was breaking international law (never mind that the reasons for the war were fabricated...that doesn't even figure into this). Did any object? Did any refuse? Did any even *know* of this law and that they were breaking it with every single action they took?

The theory is good - but it's not what happens in reality. So it's pointless to claim that soldiers have -theoretically- some moral judgement capabilty when in reality they don't exercise it.

Aug 10, 2016
"I can't believe you think the smart ones are the ones manipulated by the media.
On the other hand, I am sure you think you're smart because you are manipulated by the media!
Or do you think the media is taking their cues from you?"

RD you can't just credit the media for this phenomenon. You have to credit the government run schools. That is why there is such a big push for government pre-K, the earlier you start the programming the more effective it becomes.

Aug 10, 2016
Yup, everyone who "Cares" should vote for Hillary!

http://www.zerohe...ard-info

Aug 10, 2016
AAP, I awarded you a one, but it came up a five. You are not rational, you are stuck in some rut of silly thinking. Not having any experience in what you blabber, you just dig deeper. It is common in this forum.

Now some others can see my point in the other fora. Thinking about it is not enough. Reading about it is not enough. It has to be experienced to really understand it.

Aug 10, 2016
Hey, 166, . . paid for your Bush Wars yet?

Aug 10, 2016
The washington post thinks that trump and george kamburoff have much in common.

"...[a bullshit artist], Frankfurt says, "is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all . . . except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says." Frankfurt writes that the B.S.-er's "focus is panoramic rather than particular" and that he has "more spacious opportunities for improvisation, color, and imaginative play. This is less a matter of craft than of art. Hence the familiar notion of the 'bullshit artist.' "

-from the article entitled "the unbearable stench of trumps bs"
Cont>

Aug 10, 2016
"Harry Frankfurt concludes that liars and truth-tellers are both acutely aware of facts and truths. They are just choosing to play on opposite sides of the same game to serve their own ends. The B.S. artist, however, has lost all connection with reality. He pays no attention to the truth. "By virtue of this," Frankfurt writes, "bullshit is a greater enemy of truth than lies are.""

-and we know they're right about at least one of the 2.

Antialias would consider this objective reporting. Just as he considers his opinions objective opinions.

Here's another one of his objective opinions...
Every soldier that went into e.g. Iraq was breaking international law (never mind that the reasons for the war were fabricated...that doesn't even figure into this)
By this I guess we can extrapolate that it was criminals who ended the genocide in Bosnia or even criminals who defeated Uncle Adolf.

Aa likes to wait until bad guys invade you before you gather an army and fight.

Aug 10, 2016
"Aa likes to wait until bad guys invade you before you gather an army and fight."
------------------
otto cowers, and has no experience in the real world, especially the military. Anything he says comes from Sgt Rock comic books, . . the ones he got from Dubya Bush.

Enlist and serve, mister stay-at-home "patriot". Any kid or disturbed "never-was" can hide and snipe. What have you done in life?

Aug 10, 2016
The sad fact is that the media is not even pretending to be unbiased any more. They are promoting the One World Government / Progressive agenda 24/7 !

All of the values that have created the US have been demonized as the views of slave owners. This includes the belief in God, any God, and any moral beliefs attached to the creation of the family unit. Meanwhile you cannot walk down the street without worrying about your safety. This, of course, is attributed to the 2nd amendment and not the moral decay of our nation due to the progressive agenda.

Aug 10, 2016
How many guns would we have without the Second Amendment?

How many more people would be alive today?

I have come to be in favor of taking YOUR guns.

Yup. You can live without them, like i do.

If you get scared, I'll come over and hold your hand.

Aug 10, 2016
Gkam are you really stupid enough to blame all of the killings in our major cities on the 2nd amendment and not moral decay? If the answer is yes, there is really no hope for the future of our country because we are really to ignorant to deserve to be free.

Aug 10, 2016
Moral decay? They are on your side of the aisle, 166.

I oppose guns in the hands of folk whose need is psychological.

Let me know when I need to hold your hand.

Aug 10, 2016
All the "moral decay" I have seen is from the "Family Values" perverts. How many so far? Twenty? Fifty?

It got so bad, the police just waited for another "Family Values" politician to pronounce his stand, so they knew who to watch.

"Perverts for Christ"?


Aug 10, 2016
Yup, Gkam God and family values are the root cause of all of the problems in America and the rest of the world. If the Progressives can just root these evils from the soul of mankind all will be well.

Aug 10, 2016
Really, nature has it right, males and all of their uncontrolled testosterone should only impregnate the females and then leave, never to be seen again. Females being the superior gender can do it all by themselves with a little help from the government of course.

Aug 10, 2016
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Aug 10, 2016
We can see the effectiveness of this system just by looking at the ghettos of Chicago and Detroit. Their amazing progress in the past 50 years is a testimony to the Progressive ideology.

Aug 10, 2016
Paid for those Republican Wars yet?

How many people died for your mistake, your foolishness, your vulnerability to emotional manipulation?? How many?

Aug 10, 2016
"How many people died for your mistake, your foolishness, your vulnerability to emotional manipulation?? How many?"

How many people died from Hillary's and Obama's creation of ISIS eh???????????

Aug 10, 2016
ISIS was created by The Dubya, and ISIS said so. When the Republican goobers put all the troublemakers into one prison, they got the chance to organize, and they became ISIS.

They even said so.

But to go back to the real beginning, you have to seek Reagan and Casey and their organization of the rag-tag goat herders into the Mujahadeen,which became the Taliban and ISIS and the other kooks, courtesy of Reagan and Bill Casey.

Go read "Blowback from the Afghan Battlefield", and check the date. He is talking about Reagan, your brain-addled hero.

How many have died for right-wing Americans?

Aug 10, 2016
The Kool-Aid is strong in this thread.

Aug 10, 2016
Go read it.

Then, you can make excuses for President Alzheimer and "Rabid Bill" Casey.

Aug 10, 2016
We are caught between our own hateful conservatives and religious folk, and their kooks, conservatives and religious folk.

Let's put all the hateful conservatives on one island and let them blow each others' balls off.

For God.

And bad character.

Aug 10, 2016
@AA_P
There are degrees of culpability, sure. But...*military*
which makes my point regarding the Boeing parking lot security guard all the more relevant
sorry, i disagree on this point: until you actually experience the military first hand and then the Medical corp and the difference in who/what/etc. then you won't/can't understand what i'm talking about
like i said: think MASH
Here's the thing, though: A soldier of a foreign country that isn't on the soil of that country by the express authorization of the legitimate government of that country is an invader
so we (the global we) should just retract all the things we learned in WWI and WWII and allow anyone who claims to be authority in a country the free hand for genocide and all those neat fun things you can do with anyone you label "wrong" or "against the state"??
do you prefer terrorism and sterilization of the populace too?

2Bcont'd

Aug 10, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
A soldier of a foreign country that isn't on the soil of that country by the express authorization of the legitimate government of that country is an invader
more to the point: if nations around said terrorist supporter nation request assistance it should be supplied

ANY nation that protects, supports and defends terrorism in any form deserves the invasion from any nation that is willing to exercise military action for the sake of stopping said terrorism...

now, i understand your dislike of the military but i am an adamant anti-terrorist... there is a big difference between the targeting of innocent civilians, children, and non-military targets and legitimate military action against legit military targets and armed forces

if you can't tell the difference between terrorists and military action governed by laws and convention, then i don't know what to tell you

Aug 10, 2016
Gosh, gkam, you sound exactly like what you rail against. I guess your "experience" hasn't taken you to enough places to encounter differences in opinion or outlook.

Too many years in a liberal enclave has turned your vocabulary to theirs. You should get out more often.

Aug 10, 2016
@AA_P cont'd
as for Iraq: they weren't breaking international laws and it was not solely a US operation: http://www.nato.i...1977.htm

The theory is good - but it's not what happens in reality. So it's pointless to claim that soldiers have -theoretically- some moral judgement capabilty when in reality they don't exercise it
this is where you are very wrong
not only do they exercise it, but they do it regularly... as i noted: how many orders were given in just Afghanistan over a single year period? yet you're claiming that because you know of a few anomalous incidents then it justifies your belief?
it doesn't... because you don't know how many orders were given and how many were refused due to legal, moral or other issues

IOW - confirmation bias again

like i said, until you experience it for yourself you can't/won't understand what i am talking about

your argument may have had merit in 1970, but it doesn't today

Aug 10, 2016
"like i said, until you experience it for yourself you can't/won't understand what i am talking about"
-----------------------------

Yup.

Aug 10, 2016
Stumpy claims he is a veteran, but has no proof. He has mine. Where is his?

I think he is like otto, with no experience and no character, which is what he claims about others.

Prove it, Rumpy, or stop claiming it.

You scream stolen valor because my group award of the Outstanding Unit Citation with combat "V" device was not on my DD-214. None of our unit citations were on there.

But you have no proof of your alleged service. Why??

Did you really serve, or are you a lying phony like otto? Your repeated claim of "stolen valor" against me is just cover for your own cowardice, I think.

I am not going to take anymore of your nastiness without returning it, otto/Rumpy.

Now, back up your claims of service or, as you put it so gracefully, "STFU!".

Aug 10, 2016
Hey gkam, Stumpy doesn't have to prove anything, your obsession with that is your neurosis.

Everyone has experience and character. Your not knowing about others causes you to exaggerate your own in comparison.

Why does Stumpy have to prove ANYTHING to you? Either take him at his word, and shut up about it, or don't, and shut up about it.

Your obsession about "experience" being the only way to gain knowledge is completely laughable. Ever study or read to learn? I thought not.

By your reasoning the historians would have to be thousands of years old.


Aug 11, 2016
Hey gkam, Stumpy doesn't have to prove anything
@Estevan
the funny part: she already has the evidence as well as pic's of me in uniform
LMFAO

i just let her rant anymore...
she has no evidence
she can't validate his claims
she has to resort to lies about medals (called STOLEN VALOR)
she lied about her education (anyone know of a reputable accredited school that gives real, not honorary, masters degree's to people without a baccalaureate?)

she is really pissed about being proven illiterate too... 'cause i already sent her my evidence but she deleted it because, yeah: she really is that stupid

so just ignore the pathetic geriatric as she is suffering from dementia and all she wants is attention because no one likes her, not even her kids or wife

Why else would she be here posting blatant false information and lies?

and why else would she be asking people for their personal information if it isn't to stalk &/or steal identity because she's pathetic?

Aug 11, 2016
Poor Rumpy. That goober likes to brag about being a "Truck Captain", but all we have is his BS for it. Meanwhile, he denigrates those of us who have provben not only our service, but awards as well.

No, that goober is a liar, like he accuses others. He is another Trump, lying when it suits him, while he proves nothing. He "served:" like Trump. He is Trumpy now.

Of course Estevan, who is another sniper hiding from us, bleats in as well. It is what this forum has come to, with anonymous snipers attacking others with real names and real experience and real education. They are here because the Real World is too much for them. Some are actually SO SCARED they hide in the woods, like cowards.

Yeah, I am taking some of their own stuff and throwing it back, but in this case, it is real.

Aug 11, 2016
@STOLEN VALOR chronic liar
those of us who have provben not only our service, but awards as well
you have "provben"[sic] no Combat V award:
UCMJ ("Title 10 U.S.C., Chapter 45, The Uniform, Department of Defense Instruction
(DoDI) 1334.1, Wearing of the Uniform, and Air Force Policy Directive (AFPD) 36-29, Military Standards"), see also AFI 36-2903. AFI 36-28, plus your own DD214

in this case, reality can be validated by anyone who wishes to actually read the law and uniform wear as written by the USAF & Gov't and compare it to what is on your records
http://s1027.phot...p;page=1

PW=VALIDATE

that link also proves you're wrong about everything else too (in this case, it is real), with evidence, but being illiterate you can't comprehend why it does so

-reported for OT derailing, SPAM/TROLLING/BAITING crap and refusing to actually validate comments with evidence

no science, no evidence, no more reply

Aug 11, 2016
Trumpy, you are STILL HIDING from the Decent Folk. Just show us you really did serve, and did not cower and hide.

You abuse those of us who have served and proven it, yet you have NO PROOF of your own "service"

I think that is because you are lying, and did not serve. You HID in the woods, like now, . . SCARED.

Prove it, Trumpy,or suffer the same fate as your model, The Donald: Exposure.

Aug 11, 2016
Trumpy, you are STILL HIDING from the Decent Folk
"A woman with a staggering record of fraud, deceit, lies, and broken promises concluded a letter to the parole board with, "I've let a lot of people down… One is only as good as her reputation and name. My word is as good as gold."

-Just curious, do you ever get a moment of clarity, however fleeting, and wish you had been able to live your life as an honest decent person rather than the lying cheating sicko psychopath you have proven yourself to be?

From what george kamburoff has told the people here, this is pretty much who and what he has been his entire life.