What lies beneath: Venus' surface revealed through the clouds

July 18, 2016
Schematic illustration of the proposed behaviour of gravity waves in the vicinity of mountainous terrain on Venus. Winds pushing their way slowly across the mountainous slopes on the surface generate gravity waves - an atmospheric phenomenon also often seen in mountainous parts of Earth's surface. These waves form when air ripples over bumpy surfaces. The waves then propagate vertically upwards, growing larger and larger in amplitude until they break just below the cloud-top, like sea waves on a shoreline. As the waves break, they push back against the fast-moving high-altitude winds and slow them down. The background is an artist's impression of the surface of Venus beneath the cloud tops. Credit: European Space Agency

Using observations from ESA's Venus Express satellite, scientists have shown for the first time how weather patterns seen in Venus' thick cloud layers are directly linked to the topography of the surface below. Rather than acting as a barrier to our observations, Venus' clouds may offer insight into what lies beneath.

Venus is famously hot, due to an extreme greenhouse effect which heats its to temperatures as high as 450 degrees Celsius. The climate at the surface is oppressive; as well as being hot, the surface environment is dimly lit, due to a thick blanket of cloud which completely envelops the planet. Ground-level winds are slow, pushing their way across the planet at painstaking speeds of about 1 metre per second – no faster than a gentle stroll.

However, that is not what we see when we observe our sister planet from above. Instead, we spy a smooth, bright covering of cloud. This cloud forms a 20-km-thick layer that sits between 50 and 70 km above the surface and is thus far colder than below, with typical temperatures of about -70 degrees Celsius – similar to temperatures found at the cloud-tops of Earth. The upper cloud layer also hosts more extreme weather, with winds that blow hundreds of times faster than those on the surface (and faster than Venus itself rotates, a phenomenon dubbed 'super-rotation').

While these clouds have traditionally blocked our view of Venus' surface, meaning we can only peer beneath using radar or infrared light, they may actually hold the key to exploring some of Venus' secrets. Scientists suspected the rippling across the cloud-tops to be influenced by the topography of the terrain below. They have found hints of this in the past, but did not have a complete picture of how this may work – until now.

Scientists using observations from ESA's Venus Express satellite have now greatly improved our climate map of Venus by exploring three aspects of the planet's cloudy weather: how quickly winds on Venus circulate, how much water is locked up within the clouds, and how bright these clouds are across the spectrum (specifically in ).

"Our results showed that all of these aspects – the winds, the water content, and the cloud composition – are somehow connected to the properties of Venus' surface itself," says Jean-Loup Bertaux of LATMOS (Laboratoire Atmosphères, Milieux, Observations Spatiales) near Versailles, France, and lead author of the new Venus Express study. "We used observations from Venus Express spanning a period of six years, from 2006 to 2012, which allowed us to study the planet's longer-term weather patterns."

Although Venus is very dry by Earth standards, its atmosphere does contain some water in the form of vapour, particularly beneath its cloud layer. Bertaux and colleagues studied Venus' cloud-tops in the infrared part of the spectrum, allowing them to pick up on the absorption of sunlight by water vapour and detect how much was present in each location at cloud-top level (70 km altitude).

They found one particular area of cloud, near Venus' equator, to be hoarding more water vapour than its surroundings. This 'damp' region was located just above a 4500-metre-altitude mountain range named Aphrodite Terra. This phenomenon appears to be caused by water-rich air from the lower atmosphere being forced upwards above the Aphrodite Terra mountains, leading researchers to nickname this feature the 'fountain of Aphrodite'.

"This 'fountain' was locked up within a swirl of clouds that were flowing downstream, moving from east to west across Venus," says co-author Wojciech Markiewicz of the Max-Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Göttingen, Germany. "Our first question was, 'Why?' Why is all this water locked up in this one spot?"

In parallel, the scientists used Venus Express to observe the clouds in ultraviolet light, and to track their speeds. They found the clouds downstream of the 'fountain' to reflect less ultraviolet light than elsewhere, and the winds above the mountainous Aphrodite Terra region to be some 18 per cent slower than in surrounding regions.

False-colour image of cloud features seen on Venus by the Venus Monitoring Camera (VMC) on Venus Express. The image was captured from a distance of 30 000 km on 8 December 2011. The VMC was designed and built by a consortium of German institutes lead by the Max-Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Göttingen. Credit: European Space Agency

All three of these factors can be explained by one single mechanism caused by Venus' thick atmosphere, propose Bertaux and colleagues.

"When winds push their way slowly across the mountainous slopes on the surface they generate something known as gravity waves," adds Bertaux. "Despite the name, these have nothing to do with gravitational waves, which are ripples in space-time – instead, gravity waves are an atmospheric phenomenon we often see in mountainous parts of Earth's surface. Crudely speaking, they form when air ripples over bumpy surfaces. The waves then propagate vertically upwards, growing larger and larger in amplitude until they break just below the cloud-top, like sea waves on a shoreline."

As the waves break, they push back against the fast-moving high-altitude winds and slow them down, meaning that winds above Venus' Aphrodite highlands are persistently slower than elsewhere.

However, these winds re-accelerate to their usual speeds downstream of Aphrodite Terra – and this motion acts as an air pump. The wind circulation creates an upwards motion in Venus' atmosphere that carries water-rich air and ultraviolet-dark material up from below the cloud-tops, bringing it to the surface of the cloud layer and creating both the observed 'fountain' and an extended downwind plume of vapour.

"We've known for decades that Venus' atmosphere contains a mysterious ultraviolet absorber, but we still don't know its identity," says Bertaux. "This finding helps us understand a bit more about it and its behaviour – for example, that it's produced beneath the cloud-tops, and that ultraviolet-dark material is forced upwards through Venus' cloud-tops by wind circulation."

Scientists already suspected that there were ascending motions in Venus' atmosphere all along the equator, caused by the higher levels of solar heating. This finding reveals that the amount of water and ultraviolet-dark material found in Venus' clouds is also strongly enhanced at particular places around the planet's equator. "This is caused by the mountains way down on Venus' surface, which trigger rising waves and circulating winds that dredge up material from below," says Markiewicz.

As well as helping us understand more about Venus, the finding that surface topography can significantly affect atmospheric circulation has consequences for our understanding of planetary super-rotation, and of climate in general.

"This certainly challenges our current General Circulation Models," says Håkan Svedhem, ESA Project Scientist for Venus Express. "While our models do acknowledge a connection between topography and climate, they don't usually produce persistent weather patterns connected to topographical surface features. This is the first time that this connection has been shown clearly on Venus – it's a major result."

Venus Express was in operation at Venus from 2006 until 2014, when its mission concluded and the spacecraft began its descent through Venus' atmosphere.

The study by Bertaux and colleagues made use of several years of Venus Express observations gathered by the Venus Monitoring Camera (VMC) – to explore the wind speeds and ultraviolet brightness of the clouds – and by the SPICAV spectrometer (Spectroscopy for Investigation of Characteristics of the Atmosphere of Venus) – to study the amount of contained within the .

"This research wouldn't have been possible without Venus Express' reliable and long-term monitoring of the planet across multiple parts of the spectrum. The data used in this study were collected over many years," adds Svedhem. "Crucially, knowing more about Venus' circulation patterns may help us to constrain the identity of the planet's mysterious ultraviolet absorber, so we can understand more about the planet's atmosphere and climate as a whole."

Explore further: Image: Understanding the atmosphere of Venus

More information: Jean-Loup Bertaux et al. Influence of Venus topography on the zonal wind and UV albedo at cloud top level: The role of stationary gravity waves, Journal of Geophysical Research: Planets (2016). DOI: 10.1002/2015JE004958

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HannesAlfven
1.5 / 5 (13) Jul 18, 2016
Articles like this leave the reader with a false impression that Venus is well understood by academics. Yet, the history of Venusian theories is without a doubt a story of repeated conjectural failures.

As an example, when the scholar and mythology expert, Immanuel Velikovsky, accurately predicted Venus' surface temperature, theorists went into overdrive to establish their own uniformitarian hypothesis for Venus' heat.

Carl Sagan's Super Greenhouse Theory was selected as the hypothesis of choice, and part of the purpose of the Venus Pioneer mission was to create some support for it. But, all four of the mission's probes returned back data suggesting that Venus is not in thermal equilibrium. It's releasing 15% more heat than it is taking in.

The problem is that a greenhouse effect requires thermal equilibrium (heat in must equal heat out).
HannesAlfven
1.6 / 5 (12) Jul 18, 2016
The Pioneer engineers were then tasked with identifying instrumental errors. This process took a significant amount of time and effort. Eventually, possible instrumental errors were discovered, and that was sufficient to justify their decision to correct the Venus Pioneer data set to reflect the greenhouse hypothesis.

In other words, when the data did not cooperate, they ended up assuming the very hypothesis which they were going there to test.

The reason why Velikovsky was able to predict Venus' extreme temperature is that Venus is arguably the most important archetype of the stories that mankind first told. In those stories, it transforms from a beautiful "torch star" which was assigned a feminine attribute due to its cometary appearance, into a horrible medusa that rained fire down upon the planet.

In other words, the Pagans recorded a catastrophic situation which the planetary scientists have decided to completely ignore.
Phys1
4.1 / 5 (16) Jul 18, 2016

The problem is that a greenhouse effect requires thermal equilibrium (heat in must equal heat out).

Nope. A greenhouse with a heat source inside is still a greenhouse.
wduckss
1 / 5 (9) Jul 18, 2016
Water vapor and -70 ° C does not go together.
ESA should team up with Russia and bring reliable data. On Venus can be relatively easy to arrive, not it neighboring stars.
Phys1
4.3 / 5 (12) Jul 18, 2016
Water vapor and -70 ° C does not go together.

The answer is: low (partial) pressure.
Maggnus
4.1 / 5 (14) Jul 18, 2016
The reason why Velikovsky was able to predict Venus' extreme temperature is that Venus is arguably the most important archetype of the stories that mankind first told. In those stories, it transforms from a beautiful "torch star" which was assigned a feminine attribute due to its cometary appearance, into a horrible medusa that rained fire down upon the planet.

In other words, the Pagans recorded a catastrophic situation which the planetary scientists have decided to completely ignore.

And mystics are mysterious and my unicorn is being trained by a leprechaun who drinks my beer when I am not looking.

You blow smoke.
Shootist
2 / 5 (8) Jul 18, 2016
The reason why Velikovsky was able to predict Venus' extreme temperature is that Venus is arguably the most important archetype of the stories that mankind first told. In those stories, it transforms from a beautiful "torch star" which was assigned a feminine attribute due to its cometary appearance, into a horrible medusa that rained fire down upon the planet.

In other words, the Pagans recorded a catastrophic situation which the planetary scientists have decided to completely ignore.

And mystics are mysterious and my unicorn is being trained by a leprechaun who drinks my beer when I am not looking.

You blow smoke.

magic smoke though it be.
cantdrive85
Jul 18, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
jonesdave
4.3 / 5 (12) Jul 18, 2016
Immanuel Velikovsky,


As somebody once said on the ISF forum, (to paraphrase) "Velikovsky was not just a common or garden moron; he was a world class moron."

Perhaps you can dig out his calculations of how Venus got so hot, prior to us knowing its atmospheric composition? Yes? Otherwise, like him, you are talking complete b*ll*cks. No offence.
jonesdave
4.3 / 5 (11) Jul 18, 2016
The Pioneer engineers were then tasked with identifying instrumental errors. This process took a significant amount of time and effort. Eventually, possible instrumental errors were discovered, and that was sufficient to justify their decision to correct the Venus Pioneer data set to reflect the greenhouse hypothesis.

In other words, when the data did not cooperate, they ended up assuming the very hypothesis which they were going there to test.

The reason why Velikovsky was able to predict Venus' extreme temperature is that Venus is arguably the most important archetype of the stories that mankind first told. In those stories, it transforms from a beautiful "torch star" which was assigned a feminine attribute due to its cometary appearance, into a horrible medusa that rained fire down upon the planet.

In other words, the Pagans recorded a catastrophic situation which the planetary scientists have decided to completely ignore.


Lol.
cantdrive85
1.8 / 5 (19) Jul 18, 2016
And yet, Velikovsky's book 'Worlds in Collision' was open on Einstein's desk when he passed away.

And after Inquisition of Velikovsky led by the lead inquisitor Sagan, they could never show he was incorrect. I know jonesdumb insists our ancestors were dumb as rocks, highly probable in his case, yet civilizations worldwide reported the same events that gave rise to mythology and religion without any contact between them. Must be some planet wide delusional episode.
wduckss
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 19, 2016
Water vapor and -70 ° C does not go together.

The answer is: low (partial) pressure.


Exactly. At sea level (where the greatest pressure) water is in solid form. At the top of the mountains (where the pressure is lowest) water is in liquid form (well known are swimming Mount Everest). Planets that are further from the Sun are in the current osbliku.
It you must be patented.
Phys1
4.4 / 5 (14) Jul 19, 2016
@wduckss
You should take a look at the H2O phase diagram
and then come back here with a factual opinion.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (15) Jul 19, 2016
@cd85
Velikovsky's book 'Worlds in Collision' was open on Einstein's desk when he passed away

Says who ?
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (15) Jul 19, 2016
@cd85
Here is a link with a picture of Einstein's desk as he left it.
Velikovsky's book is not there.
"Velikovsky's own daughter, Ruth Sharon, wrote in her 1995 biography of her father that Einstein's secretary, Helen Dukas, objected to the claim that Worlds in Collision sat on Einstein's desk in his final hours."
http://www.jasonc...-he-died
wduckss
1.7 / 5 (11) Jul 19, 2016
@Phys1
Did I say a something that is not an empirical fact? Should be viewed, not only to believe. Paper submitted by all.
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (10) Jul 19, 2016
@cd85
Here is a link with a picture of Einstein's desk as he left it.
Velikovsky's book is not there.
"Velikovsky's own daughter, Ruth Sharon, wrote in her 1995 biography of her father that Einstein's secretary, Helen Dukas, objected to the claim that Worlds in Collision sat on Einstein's desk in his final hours."
http://www.jasonc...-he-died

To add to this argument, you can look from another angle, see that the desk is pretty cluttered with plenty of books, but the important thing to mention is that there is no open book. Enough said. https://www.ibm.c...pective/
Maggnus
4.4 / 5 (13) Jul 19, 2016
And after Inquisition of Velikovsky led by the lead inquisitor Sagan, they could never show he was incorrect. I know jonesdumb insists our ancestors were dumb as rocks, highly probable in his case, yet civilizations worldwide reported the same events that gave rise to mythology and religion without any contact between them. Must be some planet wide delusional episode.
And lo, the heavens moved and the Acolyte comes forth with his blather and empty words. And behold, the readers laughed and pointed at the absurdity of his preaching, And only the gullible and the stupid remained.

The world has enough religions, No one has time for yours..

Well, except Hannes. Not the real one, of course.
Maggnus
4.1 / 5 (13) Jul 19, 2016
@wduckss
You should take a look at the H2O phase diagram
and then come back here with a factual opinion.

Funny, even this idiot wduckss's gobblygook makes more sense than canthink's religious ranting.
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (11) Jul 19, 2016
Water vapor and -70 ° C does not go together.
ESA should team up with Russia and bring reliable data. On Venus can be relatively easy to arrive, not it neighboring stars.

When you talk about clouds on Venus, they are sulfuric acid clouds; H2O is only a trace gas representing a few ppm of the venusian atmosphere. https://hal-uvsq....document
rrrander
1.4 / 5 (9) Jul 20, 2016
Too bad they can't send another probe like the Russian one. REAL images of the surface would be good to see.
ThunderDolts
Jul 20, 2016
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
wduckss
1 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Water vapor and -70 ° C does not go together.
ESA should team up with Russia and bring reliable data. On Venus can be relatively easy to arrive, not it neighboring stars.

When you talk about clouds on Venus, they are sulfuric acid clouds; H2O is only a trace gas representing a few ppm of the venusian atmosphere. https://hal-uvsq....document


H2O, H2SO4.
(Melting point 10 ° C (50 ° F; 283 K) Boiling point 337 ° C (639 ° F; 610 K) When sulfuric acid is above 300 ° C (572 ° F), it will decompose slowly. https://en.wikipe...ic_acid)
Why mention the compounds, which are in the trace as that are the main component of the atmosphere?
The possibility of erroneous measurements is obvious.
cantdrive85
1.5 / 5 (8) Jul 20, 2016
I guess a couple black and white photos which show a disheveled desk with stacks of papers and books is proof of something. Look there, under the tall pile of paperwork, an open book. Probably Worlds in Collision.
Chris_Reeve
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
When the first people who told stories recorded the arrival of Venus as a comet, in one collective GLOBAL voice, the scientific community ridiculed the message, even though that message was passed on -- by memory and voice -- for literally thousands of years.

Nevermind that the astronomical content of mythology had been a very popular topic of scholarship for literally centuries, and that Venus' feminine nature traces directly back to its cometary appearance (it's an analogy with long, flowing hair).

The fact is that if you see a huge amount of heat coming from the surface and if the planet is not in thermal equilibrium, then there is no reason at all to assume uniformitarianism. Thus, the inference of a greenhouse is the application of a narrative to what should be a question: What was the event which created the heat?

The idea that the first people who told stories would all collectively and mistakenly refer to Venus as a comet is a Greek tragedy in the making.
Chris_Reeve
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "Velikovsky's own daughter, Ruth Sharon, wrote in her 1995 biography of her father that Einstein's secretary, Helen Dukas, objected to the claim that Worlds in Collision sat on Einstein's desk in his final hours."

The fact is that Einstein was always more thoughtful when it came to Velikovsky than his less mindful followers. We can debate the book on the desk, but there is no debate over the fact that Einstein actually read it and took it seriously. Einstein was personally responsible for inspiring scientists to actually look into some of V's claims.

Since Velikovsky's death, catastrophism has become a far more acceptable field of study in some regards. And further, scholarship in mythology and attempts to explain it with science were never squashed by these efforts against V. In that regard, the critiques of him have been a failure.
Chris_Reeve
1.6 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
Carl Sagan in fact had regrets on the handling of the Velikovsky affair, but it seems that nobody here has paid them any heed ...

https://www.youtu...N7iVIuhk

"The worst aspect of the Velikovsky affair is not that many of his ideas were wrong or silly or in gross contradiction to the facts. Rather, the worst aspect is that some scientists attempted to suppress Velikovsky's ideas. The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge. And there's no place for it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely solar system. And the history of the study of our solar system shows clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong -- and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources."
Maggnus
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
When the first people who told stories recorded the arrival of Venus as a comet, in one collective GLOBAL voice, the scientific community ridiculed the message, even though that message was passed on -- by memory and voice -- for literally thousands of years.
Baloney! Your mysticism and myth-mongering is the currency of charlatans. You do the same as Velivkovski and Hitchin - you expose those obscure references which appear to support your narrative while at the same time ignoring those which do not, - often in the same paragraph.

You are free to chose that religion which suits your belief, however internally inconsistent they may be, But keep in mind that your religion is no more scientific then that put forward by Raëlians or Pastafarianists - and deserves the same level of derision.

Another Acolyte of the Church of the Electronic Universe.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
The fact is that Einstein was always more thoughtful when it came to Velikovsky than his less mindful followers. We can debate the book on the desk, but there is no debate over the fact that Einstein actually read it and took it seriously. Einstein was personally responsible for inspiring scientists to actually look into some of V's claims..
The FACT is that Einstein enjoyed reading all types of obscure pantheisms. That he had any relationship with Velihovski beyond a mild curiosity in his work is disputed, but either way he most assuredly did not endorse him in even the most mildest of form. Einstein was a scientist and a physicist - he was well aware that the pseudo-scientific, quasi-religious pronouncements of those such as Velikovski were just that - pseudo-scientific and quasi-religious.
Maggnus
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Carl Sagan in fact had regrets on the handling of the Velikovsky affair, but it seems that nobody here has paid them any heed ..
And again, you are (probably deliberately) misrepresenting Sagan's view. While he certainly defended the right of people (all people, not just scientists) to question and explore scientific thought and to present alternative views, he also was withering in his criticism of such quasi-religious tripe as that put forward by Velikovski and his ilk. Let's let him speak for himself shall we?

"Pseudoscience speaks to powerful emotional needs that science often leaves unfulfilled. It caters to fantasies about personal powers we lack and long for."

The fantasies of Velikovski included.
Phys1
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
@cd85
I guess a couple black and white photos which show a disheveled desk with stacks of papers and books is proof of something. Look there, under the tall pile of paperwork, an open book. Probably Worlds in Collision.

A photograph of Einstein's desk as he left it and a statement of Velikovsky's daughter do not convince you, who accuses others of being dogmatic.
Psychological projection in its purest form.
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
When the first people who told stories recorded the arrival of Venus as a comet, in one collective GLOBAL voice, the scientific community ridiculed the message,

In the mean time the scientific community no longer has time for the lunatic fringe.
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
Here is another picture of the same desk in the same state:
https://www.pinte...9197516/
In fact here are a few more: http://bfy.tw/6pra

This is where you prove your point or admit that you are totally clueless.
HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "Baloney! Your mysticism and myth-mongering is the currency of charlatans. You do the same as Velivkovski and Hitchin - you expose those obscure references which appear to support your narrative while at the same time ignoring those which do not, - often in the same paragraph."

The very fact that the cultures of the world agreed AT ALL that Venus was feminine demands explanation. Planets are currently just points of light, and cannot exhibit gender in such a state.

There are only two possible explanations: Either one original culture imposed its belief system upon all of the others, and left no evidence of the former belief systems which preceded it ... In other words, we dismiss the claim by making up a half-assed explanation ...

... Or, the stories can be taken at face value -- which demands that Venus arrived in our solar system as a comet, as most of the cultures record.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
There are only two possible explanations

Only two?
Why not the fact that Venus orbital period is nine months, equal to the human gestation period.
HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "The FACT is that Einstein enjoyed reading all types of obscure pantheisms. That he had any relationship with Velihovski beyond a mild curiosity in his work is disputed"

You're inventing a narrative.

Recall that Velikovsky predicted that Jupiter should be emitting radio noise. Velikovsky had made the prediction in the midst of discussions with Einstein. Although Einstein himself disputed Velikovsky's reasoning, he nevertheless used his influence to have Jupiter surveyed for radio emissions.

In April 1955, radio noises were indeed discovered from Jupiter -- a surprise for scientists at the time who had assumed that Jupiter was too cold and inactive to emit radio waves.

The discovery led Einstein to agree to assist in developing other tests for Velikovsky's thesis, but Einstein unfortunately died only weeks later.

This real history is a truthful testament to their relationship.
HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "Why not the fact that Venus orbital period is nine months, equal to the human gestation period."

Because even mythologists are not allowed to just make stuff up. They have to find somebody actually saying it.

The numerous pictographs of Venus, the numerous stories about its appearance, the numerous analogies (e.g., "torch star"), and the language used (which is in a number of cases the same language used to describe comets) ALL, in unison, point to Venus' feminine attribute originating with its cometary appearance.

That you've accepted this narrative suggests that you've never actually engaged the content of the archetypes.
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
@HA
I have not "accepted this narrative". "Narrative" seems to be your favorite term to discard opinions that do no fit into your belief system, which you mistake for science.
I propose my own, as far as I know, explanation for the association of Venus with fertility.
Knowing that prehistoric man was into astronomy this is plausible.
Btw what is feminine about a "torch star" ?
HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "I propose my own, as far as I know, explanation for the association of Venus with fertility."

Well, be aware that you're not the first to suggest it. It's been suggested before, and it's a pathetic rebuttal. Don't forget that when when Venus became horrible (raining fire down upon the planet), her hair became snakes. Her hair transformed with her character.
Maggnus
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
The very fact that the cultures of the world agreed AT ALL that Venus was feminine demands explanation. Planets are currently just points of light, and cannot exhibit gender in such a state.
But they don't agree, AT ALL! This is exactly what we are talking about - using made up facts and half-truths while ignoring that which does not meet the narrative. Its called confirmation bias!

There are only two possible explanations: Either one original culture imposed its belief system upon all of the others, and left no evidence of the former belief systems which preceded it ... In other words, we dismiss the claim by making up a half-assed explanation ...
You missed the third one - calculated misrepresentation combined with confirmation bias.
Or, the stories can be taken at face value -- which demands that Venus arrived in our solar system as a comet, as most of the cultures record.
Or you can accept the truth - that Venus no more did this than unicorns shat diamonds!
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
You're inventing a narrative.
That's fucking HILARIOUS coming from you!
Recall that Velikovsky predicted that Jupiter should be emitting radio noise. Velikovsky had made the prediction in the midst of discussions with Einstein. Although Einstein himself disputed Velikovsky's reasoning, he nevertheless used his influence to have Jupiter surveyed for radio emissions.
He did not! Burke and Franklin discovered the radio waves by accident while looking at the Crab Nebula. You can't even keep your bloody facts straight!

In April 1955, radio noises were indeed discovered from Jupiter -- a surprise for scientists at the time who had assumed that Jupiter was too cold and inactive to emit radio waves.

The discovery led Einstein to agree to assist in developing other tests for Velikovsky's thesis, but Einstein unfortunately died only weeks later.

This real history is a truthful testament to their relationship.
Except, it is all made up.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
Because even mythologists are not allowed to just make stuff up. They have to find somebody actually saying it.
OMG, I am having trouble even typing because I am shaking from the laughter as the tears are rolling from my eyes!! Do you even hear yourself? What the fuck does MYTH mean you indoctrinated sack of vomit?

The numerous pictographs of Venus, the numerous stories about its appearance, the numerous analogies (e.g., "torch star"), and the language used (which is in a number of cases the same language used to describe comets) ALL, in unison, point to Venus' feminine attribute originating with its cometary appearance.
Except, once again, they don't. Except in Velikovski's imaginary made up universe of course.

That you've accepted this narrative suggests that you've never actually engaged the content of the archetypes.
That you are this indoctrinated in MYTHS says everything!!
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "I propose my own, as far as I know, explanation for the association of Venus with fertility."

Well, be aware that you're not the first to suggest it. It's been suggested before,

I did not expect to be the first. It is quit plausible that prehistoric people would have used Venus for timing pregnancy.
and it's a pathetic rebuttal. Don't forget that when when Venus became horrible (raining fire down upon the planet), her hair became snakes. Her hair transformed with her character.

That is not how Botticelli painted her.
You have lost contact with reality. Contact a psychiatrist immediately. Or dial 911, 112, whatever the alarm number is in your country.
Maggnus
3.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "I propose my own, as far as I know, explanation for the association of Venus with fertility."

Well, be aware that you're not the first to suggest it. It's been suggested before, and it's a pathetic rebuttal. Don't forget that when when Venus became horrible (raining fire down upon the planet), her hair became snakes. Her hair transformed with her character.


But making up stories about ancient paintings found on cave walls and conflating those with mythical beings from different mythologizes covering different time frames in different parts of the world is more logical to you? Talk about pathetic!
HannesAlfven
1.8 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Conflating the two terms -- myth and mythology -- ignores the fact that mythology has been an academic subject of scholarship for a number of centuries now.

The reason why a war was waged upon catastrophism has nothing at all to do with scientific arguments. It was an act of politics. The intent was to bury forever the notion of the divine right of kings. If the scientific evidence denied the truth of the Bible, then it also denied any connection between God and the Monarchy, thus freeing Parliament and the people to redefine the political equations. The effort was enormously successful, but we today live with the scientific legacy of a political decision (which was admittedly the best thing to do at the time).

The study of mythology became completely wrapped up in that politics, for the stories of mythology are rich in both astronomical and catastrophic content.
HannesAlfven
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
"Mythic stories are, or seem, arbitrary, meaningless, absurd, yet nevertheless they seem to reappear all over the world. A 'fanciful' creation of the mind in one place would be unique -- you would not find the same creation in a completely different place."

- Quote by Levi-Strauss, the "father of modern anthropology"

Of the Phaethon myth, Plato remarks:

"... Now, this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving around the earth and in the heavens, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth recurring at long intervals of time ... All of these stories, and ten thousand others which are still more wonderful, have a common origin"
HannesAlfven
1 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
"The real actors on the stage of the universe are very few, if their adventures are many. The most 'ancient treasure' -- in Aristotle's word -- that was left to us by our predecessors of the High and Far-Off Times was the idea that the gods are really stars, and that there are no others. The forces reside in the starry heavens, and all the stories, characters and adventures narrated by mythology concentrate on the active powers among the stars, who are the planets."

- Quote from Hamlet's Mill: An Essay on Myth and the Frame of Time, by Giorgio De Santillana and Hertha Von Dechend (de Santillana was possibly the greatest historian of Renaissance science at the the time of publication)
HannesAlfven
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
"Eighty-four distinct high-energy-density Z-pinch categories have been identified in petroglyphs, nearly all of which belong to the archaic class. Only a small percentage of these petroglyphs, or parts of petroglyph patterns, do not fall into any of these categories."

- Anthony Peratt, "Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity - Part I"

In the 2000 text titled Marking Time: The Epic Quest to Invent the Perfect Calendar, by Duncan Steel, the author notices, without prodding, that geographically disconnected people have similar "start times" for the Earth (Often four to six thousand years before the Common Era). It suggests that the "start time" is really a count since the last event.

Immanuel Velikovsky was simply one of numerous scholars who have proposed a wide variety of theories to explain the astronomical nature of mythology. The list of scholars who have studied the subject is very, very long.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
Conflating the two terms -- myth and mythology -- ignores the fact that mythology has been an academic subject of scholarship for a number of centuries now..
NO, it does not ignore that mythology is an academic subject, it recognizes that mythology is the study of MYTH, or collection of several or many MYTHS that usually belong to a group of people or culture. In this connection, mythologies often address the issues of that particular group of people (their history, gods, and ancestry). It can also rightly be said that one who studies and is involved in the academic study of myths is most likely studying in the field of mythology.

So, it is not a logical error to conflate the two terms.

A conflation that IS a logical error is using the carefully edited and filtered MYTHS of an ancient people who did not understand where the Sun went at night with the scientific discoveries that have been made over the last 5 centuries.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
The reason why a war was waged upon catastrophism has nothing at all to do with scientific arguments. It was an act of politics. The intent was to bury forever the notion of the divine right of kings. If the scientific evidence denied the truth of the Bible, then it also denied any connection between God and the Monarchy, thus freeing Parliament and the people to redefine the political equations. The effort was enormously successful, but we today live with the scientific legacy of a political decision (which was admittedly the best thing to do at the time).
You're trying to rewrite history. There was no "war against catastrophism",the scientific community took issue with the poor scientific rigor and internal inconsistencies that 'catastrophists" argued in support of their stories. (I used "stories" deliberately). The key to the problem lies in the oft used qualifiers "pretty well," "reasonably consistent ," and "most of the evidence."
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
"Eighty-four distinct high-energy-density Z-pinch categories have been identified in petroglyphs, nearly all of which belong to the archaic class. Only a small percentage of these petroglyphs, or parts of petroglyph patterns, do not fall into any of these categories."

- Anthony Peratt, "Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity - Part I"
An excellent example of filtered myth combined with confirmation bias. "Could be". "Looks like". "Is similar to". Peratts imaginings serve one purpose only - to attempt to present the electric universe myths as literally true. To quote Asimov: "Legends of talking animals are as common as catastrophe myths. If we accept the catastrophe myths as literally true, then is it not also possible that animals once could talk?" Or that unicorns shat diamonds? Or that giant, unseen, unexplainable lightning bolts carved valleys on Mars?
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
In the 2000 text titled Marking Time: The Epic Quest to Invent the Perfect Calendar, by Duncan Steel, the author notices, without prodding, that geographically disconnected people have similar "start times" for the Earth (Often four to six thousand years before the Common Era). It suggests that the "start time" is really a count since the last event.
Immanuel Velikovsky was simply one of numerous scholars who have proposed a wide variety of theories to explain the astronomical nature of mythology. The list of scholars who have studied the subject is very, very long.
You are really good at picking out examples of confirmation bias. You are quoting from somewhere (Thunderdolts probably) and I bet you have no evidence to back up this statement. Notice the word "similar" in that gobblygook?

Similarities of this motif show up in pretty much every pseudoscience. Any theory can look good if you are free to ignore or rearrange key bits of evidence.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
A final bit for you to consider pseudo-Hannes - a common method of misdirection involves building a theory on a grain of sand, always proceeded with the word "if". If diamonds come from unicorn's shat, then... If the Sumaritans were visited by Britney Spears then... If electrical bolts can shoot from Zeus`s eyes then...

The whole existence of EU is based on an "if". If Velikovski is right, then there must be a mechanism to cause the planets to be moved, There are no physics that support such a thing, so IF there is another force that might work then MAYBE it is the cause. IF magnetism or electrical phenomena are strong enough, then MAYBE that could be the force,

It boils down to Velikovski's argument that Venus was somehow spat from Jupiter. And this entire argument rests on HIS interpretation of Sumaritan text - an interpretation that has been strongly disputed.

A religion doesn't require proof. EU doesn't have proof. So what does that make it?
Whydening Gyre
1 / 5 (1) Jul 20, 2016
I propose my own, as far as I know, explanation for the association of Venus with fertility.
Knowing that prehistoric man was into astronomy this is plausible.
Btw what is feminine about a "torch star" ?

Wha!?!?
Did you not see Salma Hayek in Dusk til Dawn?!?
THAT was HOT, hot, hot..
Chris_Reeve
2.5 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Re: "... So, it is not a logical error to conflate the two terms."

Your word-smithing very obviously left the impression with the audience that you were referring to the alternative definition of 'myth', as in 'untrue'. Specifically, you stated:

"What the fuck does MYTH mean you indoctrinated sack of vomit?"

Why make an ambiguous statement which can be interpreted to mean the other definition? What's the intention of the semantic confusion you've written? You leave it up to the reader to define the term.

Re: "A conflation that IS a logical error is using the carefully edited and filtered MYTHS of an ancient people who did not understand where the Sun went at night with the scientific discoveries that have been made over the last 5 centuries."

You've seemingly failed to grasp the point of comparative mythology: The premise is that all of those stories refer to a single event. Taken in that context, the stories of mythology are collectively brilliant.
Whydening Gyre
2.8 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
Anyway...
The first sentence of the illustration caption -
"Schematic illustration of the proposed behaviour of gravity waves in the vicinity of mountainous terrain on Venus."
Gravity waves?!?
C'mon...

Chris_Reeve
2.7 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
The point of passing down a bazillion different stories that are in fact analogies of just one event is that the event, and the lessons pertaining to it, can become permanently recorded in the minds of the people. No writing tools are necessary, because the stories themselves act as mnemonic devices. By anthropomorphizing the event in a bunch of ways, the mind's tendency to recall on the basis of emotional content is taken advantage of.

Realize that they may have also simply explained what occurred, but the mnemonics would not work for those types of explanation. Those stories would be less likely to survive.

The assumption that they were idiots is not just arrogance on your own part; it is also not in the spirit one bit of acting as a steward of the human race. Do not forget that people have been writing about the astronomical nature of mythology since the era when meteors were considered impossible.
Chris_Reeve
2.3 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Science itself has progressed in dramatic fashion during this time period, and this even applies recently as well ...

- the acceptance that the dinosaurs and ammonites may have suffered from an extinction event.
- the observation of a comet striking into Jupiter had a big impact upon the scientific community.
- the recent find of 8 mammoth tusks peppered with small meteorites
- the sudden appearance of large amounts of red sand all across the planet (the red comes from a thin exterior coating of iron oxide, yet iron is not involved in the process of creating quartz sand)
- the recognition that many of the meteorites that fall to Earth are from Mars (this was very unexpected, because it was earlier assumed that Martian rocks could never achieve escape velocity)

Science has dramatically changed, yet people have been reporting back on the astronomical content of mythology the whole time.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Your word-smithing very obviously left the impression with the audience that you were referring to the alternative definition of 'myth', as in 'untrue'.Why make an ambiguous statement which can be interpreted to mean the other definition? What's the intention of the semantic confusion you've written? You leave it up to the reader to define the term.
I very specifically meant it as "untrue." Or, more precisely: stories having no basis as to where, when, and from whom they came from (anonymous) featuring supernatural episodes that seek to explain natural phenomena in order to give humans some kind of special perceptions

You've seemingly failed to grasp the point of comparative mythology: The premise is that all of those stories refer to a single event. Taken in that context, the stories of mythology are collectively brilliant.
And brilliantly UNTRUE!
Chris_Reeve
2.3 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Their message has been consistent, but at various stages of the progression of scientific theory, the scientists tell us that the mythology scholars must be wrong. Truthfully, these denials are a moving target, and they arrive in an order that is dictated by our technological and scientific progression -- and certainly not on the basis of any informational need to judge some claim by academics about mythology.

The Electric Universe idea, e.g., conjectures a Herbig-Haro configuration that ends in a capture event (they call it a conjunction of course). Many people have tried to claim that such a coaxial configuration is impossible, but Herbig-Haro objects are astronomically observed. Nature has already provided the proof that it can be.

Further, recent observations of wandering "rogue" red/brown dwarf stars have demonstrated that this is not uncommon either.

Herschel has also -- quite recently -- shown protostars scattering like buckshot.
Chris_Reeve
2.3 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Three separate and completely unrelated astronomical observations have all been confirmed to be common events. And the combination of all three is the physical explanation for the EU interpretation of mythology.

There's nothing unscientific about this approach in the least. It's innovative theory-making, and only suffers from the cultural delay of astronomical observations trickling through society. Most people still don't know what a Herbig-Haro even is.

And in fact the reason why the number of people who are paying attention is on the increase is because their explanation for the mythological archetypes can indeed explain a large percentage of the oldest archetypes. It works well enough to act as a mnemonic for those stories (in reverse, essentially, of what the Pagans created).
Maggnus
3.3 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
The point of passing down a bazillion different stories that are in fact analogies of just one event is that the event, and the lessons pertaining to it, can become permanently recorded in the minds of the people. No writing tools are necessary, because the stories themselves act as mnemonic devices. By anthropomorphizing the event in a bunch of ways, the mind's tendency to recall on the basis of emotional content is taken advantage of.
Oh, like the asteroid that killed off the Clovis? Or was that the release of Lake Agassi? Or no, the sinking of Atlantis? Or wait, the Flood?

Or hey, maybe, people have good imaginations that attribute things they do not understand to supernatural deities? You know, like Apollo carrying Zeus on his chariot To block Ra's infinite glory, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT AN ECLIPSE WAS!

Or, you know, aliens. Or Borg.

Chris_Reeve
2.3 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
Maggnus, it's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. And at that point, it's regret about all of the time that could have been better spent. The concept of the Greek tragedy of course derives from the mythological stories themselves. The very point of the stories is directed at yourself. The Pagans were brilliant because the message has arrived to you.

You simply choose to ignore it. Whether or not it matters is left to chance.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
Maggnus, it's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. And at that point, it's regret about all of the time that could have been better spent. The concept of the Greek tragedy of course derives from the mythological stories themselves. The very point of the stories is directed at yourself. The Pagans were brilliant because the message has arrived to you.

You simply choose to ignore it. Whether or not it matters is left to chance.
Oh bullocks! They are called 'myths" for a reason. I am not afraid of mythical mystical creatures stealing my virginity. If you take the time to read about it, you will find that science is far more satisfying then stories written by the few old men to survive (you know, 40 year olds) for their grandchildren, who were being raised by their 14 year old parents. The same men who did not know why their gods made the earth move or a mountain throw fire at them.

"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".

Chris_Reeve
2.1 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
What is particularly remarkable about your own refusal to learn the claims of comparative mythology is that you prevent yourself from the very observation which makes sense of the stories you find so baffling.

Like so many other debunkers, you argue from a self-proclaimed lack of authority on the subject. You've not actively sought to learn the archetypes, yet you elect yourself a spokesperson who will lead others on the topic.

It's really the ultimate expression of disrespect for our own ancestors, whose message did indeed arrive to you, after many thousands of years. The message in the bottle arrived, and you threw it on the floor like a young child and smashed it, because it challenged your own (inherited) notions of what the universe is -- notions which had you lived just 30 years earlier, would have been remarkably different, no less.

Their stories will persist for consideration by the people after you. When you are dead, nobody will talk about you.
Chris_Reeve
2.1 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
They figured out how to out-smart you thousands of years before you even existed: They ensured that despite your own advocacy against people learning about their own ancestors, people may see what you type, but nobody will care to remember it in a couple of days from now.

It's just not that memorable.

But, people will continue to tell the stories of the archetypes a thousand years from today.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 20, 2016
What is particularly remarkable about your own refusal to learn the claims of comparative mythology is that you prevent yourself from the very observation which makes sense of the stories you find so baffling..
Arrogance. Well, I suppose you need something. I doubt you know as much about comparative mythology as you insinuate, and your suggestion of bafflement on my part is laughable.
Like so many other debunkers, you argue from a self-proclaimed lack of authority on the subject. You've not actively sought to learn the archetypes, yet you elect yourself a spokesperson who will lead others on the topic.
More arrogance. I lead no one but me. I proclaim authority, at least as compared to you,and I challenge you to show me where I am wrong.
Their stories will persist for consideration by the people after you. When you are dead, nobody will talk about you.
See we have something in common. And the myths will remain as testament to man's imagination. Nothing more.

Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (3) Jul 20, 2016
Anyway...
The first sentence of the illustration caption -
"Schematic illustration of the proposed behaviour of gravity waves in the vicinity of mountainous terrain on Venus."
Gravity waves?!?
C'mon...
Yeah, they're a type of wave where gravity is the restoring force, and they apply specifically to planetary atmospheres and bodies of liquid (as in lakes, seas, oceans, e.g., water here on the Earth, methane on Titan). See Wiki – Gravity wave.
Maggnus
3 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
They figured out how to out-smart you thousands of years before you even existed: They ensured that despite your own advocacy against people learning about their own ancestors, people may see what you type, but nobody will care to remember it in a couple of days from now.

It's just not that memorable.

But, people will continue to tell the stories of the archetypes a thousand years from today.
And we should call you prophet? Is your arrogance so entrenched you need to resort to The New Gospel(TM)?

You should return to your parish.
Chris_Reeve
2.1 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
Your pathetic arguments against them will be forgotten tomorrow. Their stories will continue on until they are understood by everybody. All it means is that you made yourself irrelevant to the process, and that you simply can't know what you prevent yourself from learning.
Whydening Gyre
4 / 5 (4) Jul 20, 2016
Anyway...
The first sentence of the illustration caption -
"Schematic illustration of the proposed behaviour of gravity waves in the vicinity of mountainous terrain on Venus."
Gravity waves?!?
C'mon...
Yeah, they're a type of wave where gravity is the restoring force, and they apply specifically to planetary atmospheres and bodies of liquid (as in lakes, seas, oceans, e.g., water here on the Earth, methane on Titan). See https://en.wikipe...ty_wave.

Wow... I was just wrapping my head around BH initiated gravity waves...:-)
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (6) Jul 20, 2016
...it's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. And at that point, it's regret about all of the time that could have been better spent.
Breathe in through the nose out through the mouth; if you would punch a hole through your video screen, you would indeed hurt yourself.
TechnoCreed
4.9 / 5 (7) Jul 20, 2016
@WG
Gravity waves and gravitational waves are two very different phenomenons.
Maggnus
3.9 / 5 (7) Jul 21, 2016
Your pathetic arguments against them will be forgotten tomorrow. Their stories will continue on until they are understood by everybody. All it means is that you made yourself irrelevant to the process, and that you simply can't know what you prevent yourself from learning.
And lo, I called the lightning down to smite him! And the Earth moved, and the mountains opened and spewed fire at him. FOR BEHOLD, I AM THE BRINGER OF DEATH!

Or something.

"The really dangerous people believe they are doing whatever they are doing solely and only because it is without question the right thing to do. And that is what makes them dangerous."
― Neil Gaiman, American Gods

You should question that which you think you know Chris. Big world out there.
Protoplasmix
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 21, 2016
Wow... I was just wrapping my head around BH initiated gravity waves...:-)
I guess it's okay to refer to latter as the former when the context is known, or simply as "GW," but vice versa is definitely a ?TypeMismatch error, to which your recent cranial topological morphology can no doubt attest.
Phys1
4 / 5 (8) Jul 21, 2016
Enough bullshit now, Reeves.
cantdrive85
2.1 / 5 (7) Jul 21, 2016
You should question that which you think you know Chris. Big world out there.

Oh the irony, this coming from the guy who chooses to ignore thousands of years of human history. Comparative mythology is not the desire to "prove" gods existed, it is the study of similar archetypes worldwide. If hundreds of disconnected cultures report the same inconceivable events then the likelihood is they experienced the same events.
Rather than discussing the real physical events (such as Herbig-Haro, scattering protostars, and wandering dwarves) that could lead to these phenomena you choose to plug your ears, cover your eyes, and scream no no no no! It's impossible! My ancestors are only morons (in your case the truth) and they couldn't conceivably have been able to report what they saw with their own eyes. BTW, your bringer of death quote fits perfectly in the catastrophist POV, just assume the "gods" are celestial objects.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Jul 21, 2016
Or something.

They should add that to every bible verse. Would make so much more sense.
Breathe in through the nose out through the mouth

Somebody didn't watch Dune. (j/k)
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 21, 2016
Oh the irony, this coming from the guy who chooses to ignore thousands of years of human history.
I ignore nothing Acolyte, I simply find your religion tedious and laughable.
Comparative mythology is not the desire to "prove" gods existed, it is the study of similar archetypes worldwide. If hundreds of disconnected cultures report the same inconceivable events then the likelihood is they experienced the same events.
Fail. You're simply showing your gullibility:

Reading something they can understand, that seems to make sense, that presents itself as technically competent, non-scientists are easily gulled by fake science. --Henry H. Bauer

You talk about a lack of desire to prove gods existed, then move immediately to claiming those same myths somehow prove an impossibility, There is no difference Acolyte, neither case is supported. There is no evidence to support your religious dogma, and your comments here do not change that fact.
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 21, 2016
Rather than discussing the real physical events (such as Herbig-Haro, scattering protostars, and wandering dwarves) that could lead to these phenomena you choose to plug your ears, cover your eyes, and scream no no no no! It's impossible!
Were the dwarves carrying axes? Maybe they search for their homeland! :)

As usual, your arguments display your utter lack of objectivity. T-Tauri stars have been studied extensively, and HH objects are associated with that early stage of star formation. In your usual disregard of reason, this clear and reasonable explanation is ignored in favor of some confirmation biased "Could be". "Looks like". "Is similar to". The words of pseudo-science.

And that is all you have Acolyte. I should BeLIEVE because it is OBVIOUS because it LOOKS LIKE it COULD BE SIMILAR. No science, and certainly no physics,

You are a laughable caricature of an early Christian priest.
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 21, 2016
My ancestors are only morons (in your case the truth) and they couldn't conceivably have been able to report what they saw with their own eyes. BTW, your bringer of death quote fits perfectly in the catastrophist POV, just assume the "gods" are celestial objects.
And, of course, you have to resort to insult. It makes sense really, given you have no facts to support you and your entire religion is based on the well written imaginings of an entertainer.

It is not what our ancestors saw or drew that is in question Acolyte, it is your prophet's interpretation of their drawings and translation of their words that is challenged. It is not surprising that any recent scientific book on cosmology makes no mention of Velikovsky or his imaginings. His disciples blame this treatment of their hero as proof of a conspiracy in the scientific community. But after more than fifty years of study, all of his major claims have been refuted. Consider that Acolyte.
cantdrive85
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 21, 2016
then move immediately to claiming those same myths somehow prove an impossibility,

Inconceivable is not the same as impossible. When you unwrap your lips from round Einstein's meat stick you may get a clue.
T-Tauri stars have been studied extensively,

And your point? Other than evading again.
HH objects are associated with that early stage of star formation.

That's the assumption, but we all know how remarkably flawed star life cycle pseudoscience is don't we.
Were the dwarves carrying axes?

Typical, change the subject and make ridiculous statements.
And, of course, you have to resort to insult.

You are a hypocritical POS. You have been name calling all along.
It is not what our ancestors saw or drew that is in question Acolyte, it is your prophet's interpretation

LOL, such a myopic POV. The study of comparative mythology and archetypes extend far beyond Velikovsky. Only an ignoramus such as yourself would claim otherwise.
Maggnus
4 / 5 (4) Jul 21, 2016
Inconceivable is not the same as impossible
. ,Not inconceivable Acolyte, impossible. As in, could not happen. Of course you don't understand that, you are an Acolyte and that is against your religion.
When you unwrap your lips from round Einstein's meat stick you may get a clue
From the same idiot who only a handful of posts prior tried to claim Einstein support his stupidity.
And your point? Other than evading again.
Of course you don't understand Acolyte, it is against your religion.
That's the assumption, but we all know how remarkably flawed star life cycle pseudoscience is don't we.
Not assumption stupid, they are only seen in areas of new star formation. Oh right, observation, you have trouble with that one. That means we can see it dumdum. As in point a telescope at it and look. Why, even you could do that - if you could work a telescope. I`m sure we can find a seven year old to help you out.
Maggnus
4 / 5 (4) Jul 21, 2016
You are a hypocritical POS. You have been name calling all along.
I have been dealing with your arrogance and insults for years Acolyte, I only return what I receive.
LOL, such a myopic POV. The study of comparative mythology and archetypes extend far beyond Velikovsky. Only an ignoramus such as yourself would claim otherwise.
I never claimed otherwise Acolyte, I point out that you are stuck in 1962 and have never been able to reconcile the observations of real scientists with the twaddle you preach at every site that hasn't banned you. You spout nonsense,then turn insulting and arrogant when you are called on it - and you have ALWAYS done that. Anyone who has tried to speak with you gets the same treatment, because you are an ignorant, arrogant, stupid, Prick who decided to preach about things you know nothing about to people who do.

You won't understand because you have made yourself a self-appointed Acolyte of the EU Religious Cult.
cantdrive85
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 22, 2016
because you are an ignorant, arrogant, stupid, Prick

Getting a little emotional there maggnuts, time for your Viagzac.
I have been dealing with your arrogance and insults for years

That's rich! The arrogance is in response to the unrepentant arrogance dealt out by the Inquisitors of the High Priests of the standard theory. So too are the insults. The obvious evidence of the response to every alternative POV presented on these threads. The ignorance and arrogance are on display by you to insist these events are impossible. It's also ignorance and arrogance which claims they know what would happen if these events were to occur, such as the parroting of the bad astronomer.
Of course you don't understand

What is there to understand from an open ended statement with no point or punchline.
I point out that you are stuck in 1962

I'm not the one stuck in gaslight Era physics of the nineteen aughts. Nope, I prefer modern plasma physics of the 21st century.
Maggnus
4 / 5 (4) Jul 22, 2016
Getting a little emotional there maggnuts, time for your Viagzac.
Not at all. I am simply doing that thing that so escapes you - stating a fact based on observation.
What is there to understand from an open ended statement with no point or punchline.
Like I said, you won't understand.
I'm not the one stuck in gaslight Era physics of the nineteen aughts.
No, instead you are stuck in the imaginary fairy world of a story teller who has used your gullibility and inability to apply critical thinking to suck you into a morass of ignorance and superstition.
Nope, I prefer modern plasma physics of the 21st c
You have no idea what plasma physics even are. You sit on your computer and hurl vitriol at the *observations* of those who are actually doing the work, squeezing your eyes shut and screaming that it can't be so, The same as every other indoctrinated minion in every other religion the world over.
Maggnus
4 / 5 (4) Jul 22, 2016
I have been dealing with your arrogance and insults for years

That's rich! The arrogance is in response to the unrepentant arrogance dealt out by the Inquisitors of the High Priests of the standard theory. So too are the insults. The obvious evidence of the response to every alternative POV presented on these threads. The ignorance and arrogance are on display by you to insist these events are impossible. It's also ignorance and arrogance which claims they know what would happen if these events were to occur, such as the parroting of the bad astronomer
I have seen many, from working physicists to professors to educated layman, patiently try to work through the claims of your cult with you. When you are shown that the ideas you *parrot* from the EU cult can not be physically possible, you always, every time, retreat into a cesspool of insult and accusations of repression. It is you who is dogmatic. It is you who ignores physical evidence and observation.
Maggnus
3.4 / 5 (5) Jul 22, 2016
You are an Acolyte of the Church of the Sacred Lightning Bolt, and like a Scientologist or Radical Islamic or Fundamentalist Christian you will not listen to or accept ANY evidence that your cherished beliefs might be wrong. You use dogma and confirmation bias to support and justify your belief in the Great Electrical Pantheon while steadfastly ignoring that which does not conform and denigrating any who point it out to you.

You are as dogmatic as the worst priest or imam. And you will not understand how I can say this, because you are so steeped in your fantasy that you cannot look beyond it.

You are an Acolyte of the Electric Universe and your fanaticism will not be swayed by evidence nor tempted by observation!

"Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt"
― C.G. Jung

"Make someone a devout, fanatical anything, and his brain turns to mulch."
― Mercedes Lackey, By the Sword
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 22, 2016
How about Einstein's desk, cantthink.
I have never read any statement from you that was not totally false.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Jul 22, 2016

"Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt"
― C.G. Jung

"Make someone a devout, fanatical anything, and his brain turns to mulch."
― Mercedes Lackey, By the Sword

Whoa!! Is magganus finally discovering himself?
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jul 22, 2016
@mentalobstacle
Ha, are you recognising yourself ?
(Note the infantile tu_quoque approach and the hilarious change of your alias. )
antigoracle
1 / 5 (4) Jul 22, 2016
@mentalobstacle
Ha, are you recognising yourself ?
(Note the infantile tu_quoque approach and the hilarious change of your alias. )

Awww...look everyone... "Retard of the month", tried to make a funny. Of course, by virtue of its condition, it can never realize that with every post, it confirms what a joke it is.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 22, 2016
It should be totally LMAO!!! funny,
since I meticulously copied your style.
Or do you only LMAO!!! at your own jokes ? Psycho's do that.
I decline for "Retard of the Month" out of respect for Niels Bohr,
whom you nominated by accident on another thread 3 hours ago.
Did you forget?
http://phys.org/n...nds.html
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 22, 2016
Let me round off with a deeply felt "Get lost, psychos!"
to Benni, bullshitt, dementedspectacle, cantberight85 and the sanctimonous realitycheck, who will be preaching to us today on how to become a crank.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Jul 22, 2016
Awww....Captain Hindsight (he not only speaks, but also sees out of his ass) refuses his "Retard of the month" award. Well, since he finds it easier to predict the past, I expect by tomorrow he'll envisage his disappointment from today.
malapropism
5 / 5 (5) Jul 22, 2016
And yet, Velikovsky's book 'Worlds in Collision' was open on Einstein's desk when he passed away.

I guess a couple black and white photos which show a disheveled desk with stacks of papers and books is proof of something. Look there, under the tall pile of paperwork, an open book. Probably Worlds in Collision.

Quite possibly but, really, so what? That doesn't necessarily mean anything. Reportedly one of Einstein's favourite books was "Don Quixote", that doesn't mean that he took it as a work of non-fiction. Why can't someone, even Einstein, have read a book purely because it was tolerably interesting and engaging?
Phys1
4.3 / 5 (6) Jul 23, 2016
@debacle
It is still also difficult to predict the past as this requires model accuracy.
Your case is more trivial. Past, present or future: you are clueless.
Phys1
4.2 / 5 (5) Jul 23, 2016
Quite possibly but ...

Existing photo's show no such book lying on the desk.
It is just another crackpot myth.
Phys1
4 / 5 (4) Jul 23, 2016
@karbuncle
What is wrong with hindsight?
Reread the tsunami of nonsense you have been posting to learn from your mistakes.
http://13thdimens...6691.jpg
cantdrive85
2.3 / 5 (3) Jul 26, 2016
How could Venus possibly look like a comet?

http://phys.org/n...eak.html
Maggnus
1 / 5 (1) Jul 27, 2016
How could Venus possibly look like a comet?

http://phys.org/n...eak.html

Oh look at the Acolyte using a computer generated image of the planet Venus, which has been ENHANCED with FALSE color and imaginary lines to make a point as if it is something that is REAL!

The same Acolyte who claimed that magnetic field lines are only drawn in and are not real, claims the SAME thing being done to a picture of Venus means it is real!

The Acolyte is a hypocrite, yet I bet all of the Lessor Acolytes are jumping up and down, clapping and showing off their pointy sticks.

What a laughable caricature of a Holy Priest you make! The High Priests will be very angry with your failures here Acolyte!
cantdrive85
1 / 5 (1) Jul 27, 2016
We have a new candidate for Cap'n Capslock, not to worry Cap'n Stoopid, your other title is well secured.
Maggnus
1 / 5 (2) Jul 27, 2016
We have a new candidate for Cap'n Capslock, not to worry Cap'n Stoopid, your other title is well secured.

The rebuttal of a fanatical Disciple of the Church of the Sacred Magic Lightning! You are hilarious Acolyte, in a simplistic devotee kind of way. You should consider taking up knitting.

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