Does religion make kids less generous?

November 5, 2015, Cell Press
Credit: Robert Kraft/public domain

Religious parents are more likely to describe their children as empathetic and concerned about justice than are non-religious parents. But, new evidence reported in the Cell Press journal Current Biology on November 5 suggests that the opposite is in fact true.

In the study, children growing up in households that weren't religious were significantly more likely to share than were children growing up in religious homes. The findings support the notion that the secularization of moral discourse may serve to increase rather than decrease human kindness, the researchers say.

"Some past research had demonstrated that religious people aren't more likely to do good than their nonreligious counterparts," said Jean Decety of the University of Chicago. "Our study goes beyond that by showing that are less generous, and not only adults but children too."

To examine the influence of religion on the expression of altruism, Decety and his colleagues asked more than 1,100 children between the ages of five and twelve from the US, Canada, Jordan, Turkey, South Africa, and China to play a game in which they were asked to make decisions about how many stickers to share with an anonymous person from the same school and a similar ethnic group. Most of the children came from households that identified as Christian, Muslim, or not religious. The study also included smaller numbers of children from Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and agnostic homes.

The children became more generous with age, consistent with earlier studies. But their religious rearing environment also fundamentally shaped their altruistic tendencies, with more-religious children showing less generosity. Importantly, the researchers report, children who were the most altruistic came from atheist or non-religious families.

The data also show that religious children judged interpersonal harm as being meaner and deserving of harsher punishment than did children from non-religious households. Those findings are consistent with past research in adults showing that religiousness is directly related to increased intolerance for and punitive attitudes toward interpersonal offenses, including the probability of supporting harsh penalties.

The results might be explained in part by "moral licensing," a phenomenon in which doing something "good"—in this case practicing a religion—can leave people less concerned about the consequences of immoral behavior, the researchers say. They also come as a timely reminder that religion and morality are not one and the same.

"A common-sense notion is that religiosity has a positive association with self-control and moral behaviors," Decety said. "This view is unfortunately so deeply embedded that individuals who are not religious can be considered morally suspect. In the United States, for instance, non-religious individuals have little chance to be elected to a high political office, and those who identify as agnostic and atheist are considered to be less trustworthy and more likely to be amoral or even immoral. Thus, it is generally admitted that religion shapes people's moral judgments and prosocial behavior, but the relation between religiosity and morality is actually a contentious one, and not always positive."

Decety says he is now in the process of expanding the work to include of ages four to eight in 14 countries—Canada, China, Cuba, Colombia, Argentina, Chile, South Africa, Turkey, Jordan, Taiwan, Tanzania, Ethiopia, Norway, and Mexico.

Explore further: Perceived open-mindedness explains religion-based dating

More information: Current Biology, Decety et al.: "The Negative Association between Religiousness and Children's Altruism across the World" dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2015.09.056

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Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
4.6 / 5 (20) Nov 05, 2015
"They also come as a timely reminder that religion and morality are not one and the same."

Statistics and history says religiosity is either irrelevant - people give much the same aid money irregardless - or harmful - most religious "aid money" goes towards feeding religious structures. And then we have the immoral basis for religion, immortalized by the Inquisition among others...
KBK
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 05, 2015
When you organize human behavior into law and canon, specifically the aspects of integration of life with others, then you are bound to arrive at corralled behaviour.

Also, judgement of that behaviour, punishment of that behaviour. Dogma and law in the aspects of the idea and expression of 'humanity'. Where things not written down are rejected.

Then we get into the problem not spoken of, which is the intelligence and emotional intelligence of those who fall into the religion trap, and then launch in into their children.

Like breeding dogs or cows, it gets worse and worse over time. More and more separated and tangential.

Humans can claim no exception to the noted trait of breeding and selection, when it comes to religion's course and damage (havoc) in groups of humans.

Over time such people have made themselves to be wired for it. Less the expressive open human, more regimented into specific expressed traits.
betterexists
3 / 5 (2) Nov 05, 2015
aksdad
2.8 / 5 (13) Nov 05, 2015
"Does religion makes kids less generous?"

No. But poorly-designed studies can draw meaningless conclusions. It doesn't occur to the authors of the study that culture matters more than religion though it's clearly evident in their findings. For example, lots of people call themselves Christians or Muslims, but they vary significantly in the interpretation and exercise of their religions. That's culture, not religion.

Break it down by specific affiliation and degree of observance then get back to us. Different sects of, for example, Christianity and Islam emphasize different practices and teachings; not all of which could be considered altruistic. In fact some teachings of some sects are antagonistic and discriminatory, which lazy atheists extrapolate as being characteristic of religion in general.

Religion is no more than applied philosophy. There are a lot of philosophies in the world and not all of them are beneficial.
ECat
Nov 05, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
RobertKarlStonjek
2 / 5 (4) Nov 05, 2015
Oxytocin may be a guide here. An increase in oxytocin predisposes individuals to be more friendly to in-group, kin and partners but more hostile to out-group, non-kin and strangers. The mechanism of brain area affected by oxytocin most probably has this nature and it is most probably oxytocin that is stimulated by religious in-group behaviour, explicitly that those who follow the word of God are 'good' and those who do not are 'evil'.
Benni
3.4 / 5 (15) Nov 06, 2015
"They also come as a timely reminder that religion and morality are not one and the same. "
.....perfect example is ISIS in the middle east.

However, it applies to any religious group who teaches that theirs is the One True Church, or religion. This is a mindset of persuasion as characterized by Islam, Roman Catholicism, or haters of everyone but themselves, they imagine you have no right to live on the planet if you're not one of them.
viko_mx
2 / 5 (16) Nov 06, 2015

I do not see how the basic laws of christianity, namely: "Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind" and and "Love your neighbor as yourself" will make kids less generous than the kids of atheists, which must believe that are monkeys, to function like monkeys with the moral standard of the monkeys. The statistics definitely show the connection between atheism and the surge of crime and lawlessness in society as a result of constantly degraded moral standard.
Eikka
4.7 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
For example, lots of people call themselves Christians or Muslims, but they vary significantly in the interpretation and exercise of their religions. That's culture, not religion.


No true scotsman fallacy.

Break it down by specific affiliation and degree of observance then get back to us.


Why? If all the religious groups get lower scores on altruism than the non-religious, then what point would there be to separate the religious to more and less religious?

So you could say "this religion is not as bad as those religions"? - but if they all cause the moral licensing effect, the conclusion is the same.
betterexists
3 / 5 (2) Nov 06, 2015
1 Example is Christians' hatred against poor blacks....even against their emergency cellphones.
Eikka
4.7 / 5 (15) Nov 06, 2015
I do not see how the basic laws of christianity, namely: "Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind" and and "Love your neighbor as yourself" will make kids less generous than the kids of atheists


Because you can't command a person to love - such love is not genuine. You can't try to love - the "trying" part is just an admission that you don't.

So what it's doing is setting up an unsolvable problem, which the person inevitably fails, but since they are required and commanded to do so nevertheless, they start to pretend and put on an outwardly act of love and compassion while internally resenting the whole business whether you realize it or not.

It makes people develop a facade of "love", or a fake understanding of what it means to love God, something which they can actually perform - rites and modes of thought - so they develop delusions like "loving god means hating gays", because hate is an easy thing to do.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
A commandment like "love thy neighbor like yourself" is basically a trick puzzle, like "Don't think of a green monkey".

If you don't heed it at all, you may succeed - trouble is you won't know that you did - but if you try to perform as requested you will automatically fail.

Because not thinking of a green monkey makes you remember the green monkey that you're not supposed to think about in order to remember what you're not supposed to think about.

And trying to follow the command to love somebody just makes the assumption that you already don't, and that you have to do something about it, but there's nothing you can do. You either do or you don't. Just like trying to believe in God is phony, because you either do or you don't. There's no amount of acting or pretending, or going through rituals that would make you.

That's all the same trying to be a believer and trying to love god, which is not genuine, which is why it is said that religions are simply a lack of faith.
antialias_physorg
4.7 / 5 (13) Nov 06, 2015
"A common-sense notion is that religiosity has a positive association with self-control and moral behaviors,"

Religious people live in their own bubble of likewise religious people. It's easy to think you're moral in a small or homogeneous group when you're never exposed to the morality of the population at large (especially since there isn't something like an atheist group that constantly harps about how moral they are. So you also never get the info unasked). In a homogeneous group the most base atrocities can come to be seen as 'moral'.

Coupled with the notion that religion is based on fear* this doesn't establish a good basis for a cooperative/altruistic attitude.

*Fear of death which leads to a search for an afterlife. Fear of punishment in the afterlife. Fear that other religions are the 'right' one and you've chosen the wrong one - or just general hatred/paranoia against people of other religions...or even of no religion.
F111F
1.7 / 5 (18) Nov 06, 2015
Religious people live in their own bubble of likewise religious people.

Where? I'd like to know. Unless it's an island in the middle of the Pacific with no communication with the rest of the world, religious people live in, with, and next to non-religious people everywhere, all the time.
Oooh, now this is gonna hurt your hubris...religion is THE single reason there is ANY morality in the world. Otherwise, every rule, every law, every moral, every ethic is man-made and easily un-made, changed, or warped into whatever the current level of perversion calls for. I hope and pray you live long enough for your children or grandchildren to call you amoral, ignorant, stupid for thinking certain things were "right" or "wrong". Then I wish to be listening as you try to try to defend your position, knowing full well that any discussion will eventually devolve into: "by what authority do you establish right or wrong". Then you'll wish for an immutable set of ethics...religion.
F111F
1.7 / 5 (18) Nov 06, 2015
And then we have the immoral basis for religion, immortalized by the Inquisition among others...

A nonsensical statement. Christianity was formed by sacrifice, a gift of a life for all lives. That certain immoral persons decide to perform outrageous acts neither nullifies God nor the sacrifice made on our behalf. You miss the whole point of religion...pointing us to better behavior, walking closer to God. In no case are Christians perfect, nor do they claim to be...just forgiven for the sins we commit daily, but work to reduce or eliminate. Atheists try to pervert "forgiveness" into "better than you", but it's just a lame excuse for jealousy.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (14) Nov 06, 2015
religion is THE single reason there is ANY morality in the world. Otherwise, every rule, every law, every moral, every ethic is man-made and easily un-made, changed, or warped into whatever the current level of perversion calls for


It may trouble you to think about the fact that it is so with or without religion, because religion is made and un-made by man. It takes a man to believe in anything it says in a holy book and force everyone else to obey.

Every rule, every law, is in place simply because someone chooses to believe that it is necessary to be, and convinces others that this is so. Religion is simply one means to do so - and arguably the weakest - while other things such as practical necessity are the strongest of reasons.

Anyone who thinks a second ahead will realize that living in a world filled with other people, there will be rules to follow. Religion is simply forgetting why you chose to have a particular rule in the first place.
Jester831
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015

I do not see how the basic laws of christianity, namely: "Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind" and and "Love your neighbor as yourself" will make kids less generous than the kids of atheists, which must believe that are monkeys, to function like monkeys with the moral standard of the monkeys. The statistics definitely show the connection between atheism and the surge of crime and lawlessness in society as a result of constantly degraded moral standard.


@viko_mx: You may not realize this, but your statements here are perverting the very basic laws of christianity to which you've espoused. And that right there is the problem in a nutshell: insularity is diametrically opposed to morality, regardless of ones religious affinities.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (10) Nov 06, 2015
Or, like Penn Jilette said when questioned about why he as an atheist doesn't rape and murder people all he wants. The reply was that he does murder and rape all the people he wants. That is to say, none.

Now, the strongest case for religion at this point is to ask, what if he did want to murder and rape more than none - what would make the atheist act according to the rules in that case.

The naive answer is nothing, because there's nothing to stop people from cheating when other people don't look. That however applies to the religious person as well because they are free to re-define their own beliefs to justify any and all act just the same.

What actually stops people from cheating or changing the rules when nobody's looking is the deep down intuition that everybody else is doing the same thing. If you can, they can. If they shouldn't, you shouldn't. That's called superrationality - thinking about actions in terms of other people.
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (12) Nov 06, 2015
Religious people live in their own bubble of likewise religious people.


Where?

Everywhere. They do not consider people who do not follow their particular cult to be moral - or if they consider them moral they do so only at an inferior level to fellow cult members (because: how can you moral yet not believe in their particular flavor of sky-fairy?)

religion is THE single reason there is ANY morality in the world.

The article seems to indicate otherwise. You can easily be moral without having a religion. Religion is only required for people too dumb to understand that being moral is sensible (i.e. that it makes sense if one wants to live in a cohesive/safe social environment. And who doesn't?)

And looking at current events: The most religious countries seem to be the ones waging the most wars, exporting the most guns and generally exploiting any- and everybody (at the forefront the US). Doesn't particularly make your case, now, does it?
Benni
3 / 5 (16) Nov 06, 2015
And looking at current events:
Try the past century

The most religious countries seem to be the ones waging the most wars
Russia & China are religious countries? Take a read below:

exporting the most guns and generally exploiting any- and everybody (at the forefront the US). Doesn't particularly make your case, now, does it?


An estimated one hundred million AK-47s of all varieties have been manufactured by countries including the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Egypt, Yugoslavia and most of the former Warsaw Pact. One AK for every seventy people on Earth. The most recent version issued to the Russian Army is the AK-74M, chambered in the lighter 5.45-millimeter. Great lovers of instruments of peace you Europeans & ChiComs.
Sounds more like your neck of the planet AP.
viko_mx
2.2 / 5 (13) Nov 07, 2015
""Everywhere. They do not consider people who do not follow their particular cult to be moral - or if they consider them moral they do so only at an inferior level to fellow cult members (because: how can you moral yet not believe in their particular flavor of sky-fairy?)""

The Creator consider the people who do not obey His moral laws and principles that support life in the universe as wicked, whose final destination is the lake of fire. So they are alerted promptly. The wicked who have chosen sinful way of life and have no will to change for the better are like drowned. They are trying to drag as many people with him in the lake which will burn with fire and brimstone. And they want emotional comfort by trying make to make all people wicked and tolerant their iniquity by social engineering and the introduction of laws that are contrary to God's laws and principles. Thus showing violence and pillage freedom of choice given to man by the Creator.
viko_mx
2.2 / 5 (13) Nov 07, 2015
" You may not realize this, but your statements here are perverting the very basic laws of christianity to which you've espoused. And that right there is the problem in a nutshell: insularity is diametrically opposed to morality, regardless of ones religious affinities."

Мy goal in life is not to be liked by everyone. The truth must be told as it is because it is a source of life. If anyone will get angry because it is him problem. The matter of choice.
Benni
2.9 / 5 (15) Nov 07, 2015
November 6, 2015, 9:51 pm 1 Vietvet

So far, VietVet sanctions irreligious Communists maiming, killing & murdering anyone of their choosing, it's only the so-called "religious" who get criticized. Why is that VV? The populations of Russia & China & their content AK47's shipments to the world's hotspots far outnumber that of the U.S. M16's & the only criticism you & AP posit is against the U.S.

You got any criticisms for the avowed irreligious as if you imagine they are of higher moral standing?
viko_mx
2.2 / 5 (12) Nov 07, 2015
@Benni

Communism and his cousin fascism are social and religious systems, that reflect the spirit of rebellion against God's order and laws and their leaders worship lucifer. They are bullies who have replaced love in their life with egoism and vanity which made them into slaves and people freedom haters.

antigoracle
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 07, 2015
If you need God to direct your moral compass, then I offer you my pity.
viko_mx
2.3 / 5 (12) Nov 07, 2015
Тhe existence of intelligent beings without absolute unchangeable sovereign of the universe who to guarantee the absolute truth and justice in the universe is impossible. Neither their emergence nor their existеnce for а long time. They will self destroy very quickly if they do not live according to God's moral laws.
Is there a better moral laws than the God's moral laws? Is there anything better than the love and truth? Maybe you will try to offer such despite the negligible life experience that you can gain for the moment of eternity?
my2cts
3.2 / 5 (18) Nov 07, 2015

The Creator consider the people who do not obey His moral laws and principles that support life in the universe as wicked, whose final destination is the lake of fire.

Your hateful bigotry confirms the conclusions of this study.
Benni
3.2 / 5 (14) Nov 07, 2015
Communism and his cousin fascism are social and religious systems, that reflect the spirit of rebellion against God's order and laws and their leaders worship lucifer. They are bullies who have replaced love in their life with egoism and vanity which made them into slaves and people freedom haters.


@viko: For sure Communisn & Fascism are kissing cousins, both deny the freedoms by which one can acquire private property beyond the inside of some cramped apartment building.

For some reason the AK47 cultures want to herd people into cramped quarters as the ChiComs have been trying to do with building their ghost cities in China, cities filled with empty apartment & office buildings, I guess the ruling powers of those AK47 cultures figured out a long time ago that people herded into corrals are easier to control than those living in wide open spaces, like I do.

If you need God to direct your moral compass, then I offer you my pity.
Yeah.

my2cts
2.9 / 5 (17) Nov 07, 2015

I do not see how the basic laws of christianity, namely: "Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind" and and "Love your neighbor as yourself" will make kids less generous than the kids of atheists, which must believe that are monkeys, to function like monkeys with the moral standard of the monkeys. The statistics definitely show the connection between atheism and the surge of crime and lawlessness in society as a result of constantly degraded moral standard.

You are pure evil. The devil poorly disguised.
my2cts
3.1 / 5 (17) Nov 07, 2015
@Benni

Communism and his cousin fascism ...

not to forget, its other cousin, religious bigotry.
Mike_Massen
2.2 / 5 (17) Nov 07, 2015
viko_mx with yet more unsupportable claims
Тhe existence of intelligent beings without absolute unchangeable sovereign of the universe who to guarantee the absolute truth and justice in the universe is impossible
Prove it, viko_mx claims
Neither their emergence nor their existеnce for а long time. They will self destroy very quickly if they do not live according to God's moral laws
How is this communicated ?
viko_mx claims
Is there a better moral laws than the God's moral laws?
Of course but, first need to study psychology ie operant/classical conditioning AND to apprise oneself of intrinsically valuable rules of justice eg Magna Carta as a start which examines the motivations of any accuser & in concert with the issue of foreknowledge which touches on entrapment, viko_mx states
Is there anything better than the love and truth?
Nice ideal, SHOW best example of how your 'creator' offers best example & encourages this equally to all generations ?
viko_mx
2.6 / 5 (10) Nov 07, 2015
Do you want to live among people who are not able to love, hate the truth and do not live according to God's laws?
viko_mx
2.8 / 5 (9) Nov 07, 2015
By the way you do not give me the example for natural process which without the ideas, will and actions of intelligent being can lead to increase of information (order) in one physical system. And example for definition of physical law without absolute reference point. The article about Einstein GR theory in which I asked this questions suddenly disappeared from the list and I could not read your answer?
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 07, 2015
By the way you do not give me the example for natural process which without the ideas, will and actions of intelligent being can lead to increase of information (order) in one physical system
@viko
actually, yes, you HAVE been given not only examples but also validated studies explaining this very thing when you started whining about evolution etc
i linked approx 20 links with multiple references inside each link, all validated per the scientific method

the fact that you are ignoring that speaks volumes about the integrity of you (and the religious) as well as validates the claims in the study above

your deity doesn't exist, especially not your "version" of it
this is reinforced & validated by simply observing the multiple factions of the Abrahamic religions, all of which hate each other, despite their commonality and origins - which also validates the above study

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (18) Nov 07, 2015
I do not see how the basic laws of christianity, namely: "Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind" and and "Love your neighbor as yourself
This is called doublespeak. The other half;

"18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." jon3

Religion is god-sanctioned bigotry. OF COURSE believers will treat each other differently than they will unbelievers. You may 'love' your neighbor but your book demands that you kill him if he is a heretic.

And your loving god will send him straight to hell where he belongs.

Religious charities are supposed to give only to believers or to potential converts. This is made clear in their books; the 3rd pillar of islam, the sirach, and elsewhere.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (18) Nov 07, 2015
The command to love heretics and apostates as you shun, persecute, torture and kill them is only to make it easier for you to do these things.

It does not help them one bit.

After all, you are doing the bidding of a god who loves you with an infinite love. And he loves every one of those sinners burning in hell just as much; indeed he watches them suffer every second of every day for eternity.

This also does not help them one bit.

Wrath is one of the 7 deadly sins and so the holy edict to love the ones you kill is a convenient way of doing so without sinning.

The people who concocted religion were very clever in very bizarre ways.
Captain Stumpy
4.1 / 5 (13) Nov 07, 2015
The people who concocted religion were very clever in very bizarre ways
@otto
what better way to control people than to give them what they want, justify their bigotry and hatreds, and then unite them under a flag of control designed to eradicate "all their problems" with xenophobic genocide?

when no one esle survives, it is hard to find dissenters (see also: inquisition, holy wars, etc) so it tends to validate your beliefs, right?

problem is... then there are those who want control of the fanatics...
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (18) Nov 07, 2015
Do you want to live among people who are not able to love, hate the truth and do not live according to God's laws?
More doublespeak. Allow me to translate;

'Those who dont believe in vikos specific iteration of god cannot love or be truthful.'

-All religions claim this. All religions want you to believe that only they offer honesty and love in return for devotion.

Obviously this is a lie.

Vikos god took hate and turned it into love for the purposes of butchering his enemies and taking what they have. And we now know that the people and events at the core of his book, never existed and never happened.

The very foundation of his book consists of lies.

So the love/hate and truth/lie doublespeak inherent in his, and all, religions, is pretty sick.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (18) Nov 07, 2015
@otto
what better way to control people than to give them what they want, justify their bigotry and hatreds, and then unite them under a flag of control designed to eradicate "all their problems" with xenophobic genocide?
Uh thats what I said.

But its more than just control I think. Its the process of domestication, of getting people to do things they wouldnt normally do, without thinking about it.
Benni
3.4 / 5 (15) Nov 07, 2015
@Benni

Communism and his cousin fascism ...


not to forget, its other cousin, religious bigotry.


Yeah, that too as I stated above: "It applies to any religious group who teaches that theirs is the One True Church, or religion. This is a mindset of persuasion as characterized by Islam, Roman Catholicism, or haters of everyone but themselves, they imagine you have no right to live on the planet if you're not one of them".
julianpenrod
1.4 / 5 (9) Nov 07, 2015
Among other things, who conducted this "study", the group that "proved" that conservatives are happier than liberals or the group that "proved" that liberals are happier than conservatives? Newser also ran an article on this "experiment", but they indicated only Christians and Muslims were included? I pointed out the flaw. Is this article an attempt to hide the fact the "study" is illegitimate? Also, Newser says the "study" found that even atheist children get less generous as they get older, but this says they get more generous. Interesting this article mentions religious children more concerned about p8unishment for malignant behavior. Does it mean they like to punish people or does it demonstrate that atheists are addicted to malignant behavior and don't want to be stopped?
jsdarkdestruction
4.6 / 5 (9) Nov 07, 2015
Do you want to live among people who are not able to love, hate the truth

No. You are that type. You should love even those who don't have the same views and yet instead you threaten them with eternal torture, seems pretty hateful and spiteful to me.

and do not live according to God's laws?

Your particular minority christian sects version/interpretation of gods law you mean? Plus, you are the one not living according to your gods principles and rules.
viko_mx
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
If you love someone will you save the truth or you tell him the truth to protect him?
God loves each of as but will destroy those who destroy the life on Earth because they chose to live according to principles which are not compatible with life because of an unwillingness to bear responsibility, selfishness and vanity. He warned us early on to allow the time for change.I never punished someone. This is not my jab. Only retell the words of the Creator to warn people.

It is noteworthy that on specific questions I do not get concrete answers and another prevarication, which shows a lack of arguments in my opponents. This is constant trend.
A captain is a total ignoramus. He never gives personal explanations because there he do have connection with science and the courage to take responsibility. Provides links that no one loses time to read. I never give links because I have own position and have not problem to explain it scientifically.
viko_mx
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
So for the clear questions which I ask above it seems that will not get concrete answers from my opponents. They have weak position which can not defend before neutral public. Dishonest are satisfied only with an anonymous vote because of lack of real arguments.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
He never gives personal explanations because there he do have connection with science and the courage to take responsibility
@viko
this is your logical fallacy (and complete stupidity)
if i didn't understand the issue or the question, how could i then forward the relevant studies and links to validated information?
the problem is NOT that i don't understand, but that YOU DON'T understand: this is because you refuse to accept validated facts
http://www.ploson...tion=PDF

Provides links that no one loses time to read
you don't read them because you know you can't refute them
I never give links
because you can't validate your claims with evidence
this is called unsubstantiated conjecture
see also: http://www.auburn...ion.html
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
@viko cont'd
it seems that will not get concrete answers from my opponents
and the last time we discussed this, your tactic was to discuss irrelevant OT or pseudoscience and religion rather than actually discuss the science
kinda like your post WRT your deity, like the following
God loves each of as but will destroy those who destroy the life on Earth
the problem here is that the "true" xtian (following the tenets of the holy comic you call a bible) is FAR more destructive of the planet with the mentality that they're here to "rule" it

worse still is your complete inability to even adhere to your own tenets in the holy comic (while you hypocritically say everyone else MUST adhere to)

your comic even tells you not to judge as well as that there is no need to proselytize (JER 31:27-37) and yet you still do... so is your god a LIAR, or are you?

YOU are the reason this study is validated
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (12) Nov 08, 2015
@vikoTROLL
last
I never give links because I have own position and have not problem to explain it scientifically
When you and i first discussed evolution, science, mutations and even increased order in physical systems, you failed abjectly in your "explanation" of the science

in fact, you completely ignored most of the science and then when it came time to answer blatant lies or mistakes you made, you simply refused to address ANY of it (and left, crying)

when i linked references to validate the science, your argument was that i should "be responsible and gives personal explanations"

What good is a personal explanation that is not validated?
NONE

PO already talked about your tactics
http://phys.org/n...ies.html

my question:
Why can't YOU validate your claims with references in a reputable peer reviewed journal?

you can't because you DON'T know the science. and lies can't be substantiated

Mike_Massen
2.5 / 5 (19) Nov 08, 2015
viko_mx stated
Is there anything better than the love and truth?
Where I responded with:-
"Nice ideal, SHOW best example of how your 'creator' offers best example & encourages this equally to all generations ?"

Why is it viko_mx STILL fails to answer so many questions I've and others have asked re pinning down his position.

Can viko_mx answer at least this one:-
Tell us viko_mx - what very best method does your claimed 'creator' communicate ?

Why does viko_mx claim much of Physics is 'unsupportable' yet ignores the fact his own claims are much less supportable - even by basic rational logic - Eg issue of foreknowledge re entrapment of Eve ?

viko_mx, you are not doing yourself any favours with mere claims, you need evidence not propaganda !
jsdarkdestruction
4.6 / 5 (9) Nov 08, 2015
You regularly accuse people who don't believe your small christian sect beliefs exactly are evil rotten aethiest sinners conspiring against your god to deceive people to be like them and go to hell with them. Sounds pretty judgemental to me

You simply ignore us or dismiss our answers without any true objective thinking because it goes against your predetermined beliefs.
my2cts
2.9 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
Do you want to live among people who are not able to love, hate the truth and do not live according to God's laws?

Answer 1. You do not have to. There are plenty of countries where religious bigots are in power that you could move to.
Answer 2. You do not deserve to. You reject the science which is at the root of our health and wealth and the scientists who develop it.
humy
3.7 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
This research result may come as a surprise to some but not at all to me.
I have heard some theists claim the high moral ground merely for their belief that there exists a god.
But I personally see absolutely no reason why a superstitious belief in the existence of a supernatural deity, which is completely stupid belief anyway, would help make people moral or kind. You don't need to believe that there exists a supernatural deity to comprehend the difference between right and wrong nor to be kind.
I am an atheist that has worked for a charity for a whole year; how would such theists explain that?
Zzzzzzzz
2.6 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
aksdad, to say that religion is no more than an "applied philosophy" demonstrates no understanding whatsoever of the subject. Religion is a delusional belief system, that develops in humans due to the fact that a capacity for self delusion provides some survival benefit in humans. The capacity for self delusion requires some level of psychosis, which can be identified as culpable in many of the character flaws humans demonstrate. There are varying levels of psychosis in people. Those with religious belief systems have higher level of it that those without.
The psychosis allows the believer to create a fantasy that the believer is convinced is reality. Such is the nature of belief. Since these fantasies do not generally hold up well under scrutiny, they require vigorous defence. There is ample evidence of this in the postings on this site, of all places - one devoted to science.
Zzzzzzzz
2.6 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
And, by the way, arguing with a psycho is a never ending proposition. The psychotic will never be convinced, since his sanity depends completely on the delusion. If you destroy the delsuion, you will see an ugly insanity emerge. In the past, I engaged in delusion destruction, but have since realized it is very wrong to do so. There is no honor in taking away a cripple's crutch, or exposing a blind psychosis to the hard light of reality. We are what we are, some of us have a deeper psychosis than others. It is the default condition for humans.
Zzzzzzzz
2.3 / 5 (15) Nov 08, 2015
And as I read the postings above, the delusion hiding the psychosis can be a very thin veneer indeed......
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
By the way you do not give me the example for natural process which without the ideas, will and actions of intelligent being can lead to increase of information (order) in one physical system.

The freezing of ice when the temperature drops below zero.
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015

I do not see how the basic laws of christianity, namely: "Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind" and and "Love your neighbor as yourself" will make kids less generous than the kids of atheists,

You give the answer yourself. Theists waste a lot of love, in your case probably all of it, on some imaginary friend. Less compassion remains for fellow citizen especially those who do not share the same delusion.
which must believe that are monkeys, to function like monkeys with the moral standard of the monkeys.

It seems that you are comparing atheists to monkeys. This would be worthy of an IS terrorist. Monkeys do not have any rights and therefore such a POV threatens the lives of atheists like me and nearly all of my friends and family.
Benni
3 / 5 (14) Nov 08, 2015
Theists waste a lot of love, in your case probably all of it, on some imaginary friend. Less compassion remains for fellow citizen especially those who do not share the same delusion.


This cuts both ways. Mao Tse Tung murdered more than 60 million during his reign of terror in China, he had his delusion that irreligious Communism was the perfect answer upon quashing all opposition. Previously the Popes of the "true church" had exactly the same mindset & murdered millions in past centuries for the same reasons, all in the name of their "christos" for which Mao simply substituted the word "communism".

In the present day the "murder mantle" has simply passed onto the sects of Islam for the same reasons of justification as the previous two I mentioned. Since the Iran Revolution of the late 70's, the numbers of those suffering violent death by the hands of Islamists in the Middle East can be counted in the millions.

Be careful 2cts who you accuse of bigotry & hate.

viko_mx
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
Nobody was persecuted in the name of the Savior Jesus Christ. First roman emperors and later its successor the roman catholic church persecuted true christians, declared the word of God recorded in the Bible as heresy and managed to suppress the truth and science. The result is dark ages. Standard task of every mindless tyrant is try to destroy the word of God, which removed the shackles from the people and immunize them against falsehood. Such people can not be slaves. This is a problem for the slaves of sin. In them there is no love and truth. Only revanchism to God's order and normal people, and sinful passions.
viko_mx
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
""The freezing of ice when the temperature drops below zero.""

In what way this process which obey known physical laws increase information in the system?
Since time immemorial the water freezes and melts in the same way. No evolution and growth of the information to the system.

"It seems that you are comparing atheists to monkeys. "

One who believes that is monkey begins to behave like a monkey according to moral standards of monkeys. It is comical to listen a man who does not want to be responsible in life and do not want to accept God's moral standard, to defended with vigor the idea that He is successor of monkey and nothing monkey is not foreign for him. The believe that people are animals is a convenient excuse to behave as such, but I doubt there is thinking person who is willing to do so.
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
Nobody was persecuted in the name of the Savior Jesus Christ
@viko
The Inquisition, the holy wars- etc
there isn't a need to go on, becuase you are proven a liar just by your refusal to accept said reality
please note that the inquisition was a means to kill "heretics", starting by killing those who (still christians) simply believed in other types of xtianity- all done in the name of the one true xtianity (and in the name of God, Jesus, and the holy Virgin)
you should try researching some of your own religion before pontificating with such blatant stupidity
https://en.wikipe...uisition

... the roman catholic church persecuted true christians
ALL sects of xtianity consider themselves to be the "true" xtians, and persecute each other in the name of their deities (meaning, jeebus too)
thus, by your own admission, you are ignoring the fact that your religion persecutes in the name of jeebus!
WTF?

Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
tandard task of every mindless tyrant is try to destroy the word of God, which removed the shackles from the people and immunize them against falsehood. Such people can not be slaves
@viko
really?
so, if i can show you a tyrant who is dedicated to god that uses said religion to enclave a peoples, then i can show you to be an idiot? (there are a lot of examples, BTW... and don't forget, your own religion is Abrahamic, thus that means we can include ALL abrahamic religions in said examples)

also note: do you know where you can find the highest concentrations of "good xtians" in any one spot?
PROTIP- it aint a church!

its a PRISON
It is comical to listen a man who does not want to be responsible in life
but this is the basis of your religion: absolution of responsibility
your beliefs state that you are "saved" by belief, thus your sins don't mean anything as you will progress to "heaven" by the blood of your deity as sacrifice
this is absolution of responsibility
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
In the past, I engaged in delusion destruction, but have since realized it is very wrong to do so
@Zzzzz
whereas i comprehend your rationale, it is also known that in order to understand something, sometimes you need to break it down to constituent parts

this can only be done by exposing the reasons for said delusion and then examining them

this means you must challenge the belief or delusion and follow the justification for refusal to accept reality, which challenges said delusion

although it is better in person, it "is" possible to do this without meeting another... and given the anonymity of the net, it also means people are more forthcoming in their descriptions, like above

even though they can become ugly, or even break, it also means there is insight to the thought process as well as the reasons for the delusional behaviour

And as I read the postings above, the delusion hiding the psychosis can be a very thin veneer indeed
absolutely
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (18) Nov 08, 2015
viko_mx claims
Nobody was persecuted in the name of the Savior Jesus Christ
Really ?
So when jesus wanted to kill timothy, that was just made up, its in there but untrue - really viko_mx ?

Heard of the inquisition viko_mx ?
Tell us at least once viko_mx, how does your god communicate equally to all at the same time
as a god would be expected to ?
Why did your god only turn up in two stories several hundred years apart & nothing for over 2000 yrs ?
Can you tell us why jesus' dad didnt ensure his son (ie him) could write anything, anything at all please ?
Is your god viko_mx a good example of parenting, would you do that to risk child abuse ?
Mike_Massen
2.4 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
viko_mx claims
One who believes that is monkey begins to behave like a monkey according to moral standards of monkeys
LOL !

Hmm viko_mx, strange isnt it that Bonobo monkeys are much better & smarter at group management than any human culture over any useful length of time.

Bonobo monkey's practice "do unto others" as the Greeks knew & long before jesus by ~ 600yrs
Does this mean Bonobo monkey's are catholics, prostestants or gnostics ?
Or are they atheists & only their intelligence worked it out viko_mx ?

Can you read viko_mx, Bonobos enjoy sex shamelessly (& the non-procreative kind :-) same as
humans (does this mean they are free of sin, there is no shame ?) and are based on a
matriarchal society just like some older jewish cultures, do they have a jesus ?

Can you read viko_mx - all info supportable by video evidence
https://en.wikipe...i/Bonobo

Any video evidence for any deity anywhere, anytime or are they dependent on OUR technology ?
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
Viko, define "information". I noticed before that you use personalized definitions that are not generally accepted and that you don't care if this causes confusion.
"Nobody was persecuted in the name of ..."
Again, define persecution. Perhaps you consider burning at the stake as "helping".
my2cts
2.9 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015

"It seems that you are comparing atheists to monkeys. "

One who believes that is monkey begins to behave like a monkey according to moral standards of monkeys. It is comical to listen a man who does not want to be responsible in life and do not want to accept God's moral standard, to defended with vigor the idea that He is successor of monkey and nothing monkey is not foreign for him. The believe that people are animals is a convenient excuse to behave as such, but I doubt there is thinking person who is willing to do so.

You are a very dangerous person, because that you consider those not afflicted by the same delusion as yourself as inferior. That is an advanced form of immorality, even insanity.
Forestgnome
3 / 5 (4) Nov 08, 2015
Boy, atheists sure do spend a lot of time and effort picking religion apart. Don't they have anything better to do? Does this knowledge benefit society in some way?
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
Boy, atheists sure do spend a lot of time and effort picking religion apart. Don't they have anything better to do? Does this knowledge benefit society in some way?
@forest
not picking it apart- pointing out the fallacies
when you can't distinguish reality from delusion, then it is a destructive influence... take what My2 said
that you consider those not afflicted by the same delusion as yourself as inferior. That is an advanced form of immorality, even insanity.
this is absolute fact
this is also part of the definitions of many mental illnesses - the inability to differentiate between a delusional belief and reality, so why is religion offered protection from the definitions of mental health?

religion has always made the assumption that morality is defined by religion (and said deity) and thus can only be achieved by belief in it or acceptance that morality is divine (proof of divinity)

the study proves this patently false
Mike_Massen
2.2 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
Forestgnome suggested
Boy, atheists sure do spend a lot of time and effort picking religion apart. Don't they have anything better to do? Does this knowledge benefit society in some way?
You're probably lucky not to have been on receiving end of all sorts of religiously inspired prejudice or been insulated re family history or happy to ignore excess against others :-(

Unfortunate evidence re all mainstream religions is, an easy outlet for bullying zealotry & this means those who seek power & influence over others to gain:- Status & Authority will try to ingratiate themselves before their idea of what they imagine their deity wants, so simple !

This means: child abuse, "spreading the word" eg by intruding on others lives and all the nasties that go with that including attempted emotional hypnosis of the meek & vulnerable.

Forestgnome, question you REALLY need to ask:-

"Why is viko_mx here at all on a Science site trying to proselytize ?"

Obfuscation/deceit
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
If you love someone will you save the truth or you tell him the truth to protect him?
Yeah tell him the truth - all the major bible stories never happened. Archeologists have found only totally convincing contrary evidence after a century of looking.

Does your god LIE to you to find out how much you TRUST him??
God loves each of as but will destroy those who destroy the life on Earth because they chose to live according to principles which are not compatible with life because of an unwillingness to bear responsibility
Religions main purpose is to obliterate all other religions.

Their preferred method has always been to outgrow and overrun them by forcing their women to reproduce, and nothing else.

The tropical repro rate normally leads to overpooulation. Religions maximize this equation for selfish ends.

And so NOTHING is more irresponsible than religion.
don't they have anything better to do?
Nothing is more important than ending religion.

Nothing.
hb_
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 08, 2015
Guys, calm down...

The study has a fundamental flaw: it does not separate genetic influences from cultural/religious ones. It may very well be that religious people are more conservative and hence have more genes that direct them towards both believing in god and giving less to strangers.

A study that would not have been utter BS, would have used identical twins raised in different households as the basis. If two people that have identical copies of their genome differ significantly with respect to generosity, then there might be something to the idea that religion bolsters/suppresses generosity. As it stands now, we don't know, and the study didn't further our knowledge...A really nice example of waisted (grant) money.
gkam
1.9 / 5 (18) Nov 08, 2015
We will not survive as a species unless we outgrow our need for superstition, for a Cosmic Daddy to love us, punish us severely, and tell us we really won't die.

Of course we will return to the nothingness from which we sprung. The lies we tell ourselves keep us from accepting and embracing life and Humanity.
viko_mx
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 08, 2015
The theory of evolution is always connected with moral degradation and violence, and you just demonstrated this mind set. Just because this theory is trying to excuse the lawlessness is society. You are not able to defend your position with scientific facts and therefore insist to leave the cite with the unsupported by facts claim that the believe in the Creator in not scientific.

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."



TheGhostofOtto1923
4.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
If you look at a map you can see a wide swath of desolation stretching from the Sahara to the gobi. Most of this is tge fault if religion.

People cut all the trees, their cattle ate the grass, their swine dug up the roots. This environmental destruction would have continued until the earth was uninhabitable, had not early Leaders recognized the problem and invented religions which could effectively turned against one another in very controllable and predictable ways.

'But otto, you contradict yourself... how can religions be both bad and good?

Forest fires are often stopped by setting backfires. The early religions caused this ruination. The state-sponsored, custom-designed religions we are left with today obliterated them.

But they did so by employing the very same tools that the early religions used.

These tools still exist at the very core of today's religions. Believers make a big deal of demonstrating their rejection of these tools.

But they still exist.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
The tools which enabled the current religions to conquer the world can still be found in their books.

The idea that god will provide for however many children the faithful wish to bear is at the core. So is the belief that unbelievers can't be good. So is the edict to fill up the earth with believers.

And despite the ecumenical show that believers put on for the public, all you need to do is listen to a sermon in the safe confines of a church, synagogue, or mosque; or even on an evangelical radio station, to understand that their salesmen CANNOT preach without including this bigotry.

Religions cannot exist without it. It is ALL that religion IS.

The only reason that religionists don't act on these edicts is because secular law forbids it in the west.

But elsewhere they DO act according to religious law. They are doing this now - all religions, wherever and whenever they can.

Because, according to their books, their gods DEMAND it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.5 / 5 (17) Nov 08, 2015
The theory of evolution is always connected with moral degradation and violence
To the religionist the worst moral sins are those which affect population growth. Non-procreative sex and limiting family size by artificial means are especially egregious.

This is the only clue you need to discern the true purpose of religion.

Overgrowth always leads to suffering, persecution, and of course violence. The purging of infidels along with their livestock and their orchards from the Holy Land is an essential example of what god expects of the faithful.

Religions cannot exist without violence. And as viko knows, this extends all the way to the family.

Jesus brought not peace but a sword, in order to destroy families. For anyone who loved their families or even themselves more than they loved him, would not see heaven.

Nations could not tolerate unbelievers; neither could families.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.6 / 5 (18) Nov 08, 2015
you're comparing atheists to monkeys
One wonders how religionists can be so blatantly bigoted and not realize how wrong this is
https://youtu.be/MS2t2e76o8I

-The reason being, it's OK because god says it is. Believers are allowed to break any and all of the 10 commandments when the heathen, the pagan, or the infidel are the victims.

This is nothing more than the sanctification of tribal law which says that crimes committed against members of other tribes are not crimes.
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
Boy, atheists sure do spend a lot of time and effort picking religion apart. Don't they have anything better to do? Does this knowledge benefit society in some way?

Yes it does.
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
The theory of evolution is always connected with moral degradation and violence,

You do not have to prove again that you are a very dangerous religious nut. It is very clear by now.

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

My company serves several masters. We call them customers. No problem at all.
I think your POV already was fringe nutcase 2000 years ago.
SuperThunder
2.3 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
Arguing about religion never goes back far enough. When humans first started writing things down 5000 or so years ago, a lot of what we wrote about consisted of complaining about how much nature sucks and how much humans suck. What we call the big religions, the Levant religions, have their origins in trying to solve this problem by conceiving of a way of life outside of the sucky universe and our sucky human nature. When faced with why humans didn't already live in this ideal environment, it came down either to the universe being broken, or humans being broken. The humans are broken religions won all the relevant wars and now are the globally dominant religions. They make life miserable, because they think it's our (we sinners who sin) fault nature is harsh and humans are jerks. We'd be perfect were it not for science, scientists, and all others against the Doctrine of Fallen Man. This is why their ideologies are such ridiculous problems, they make us the problem with existence.
antigoresockpuppet
3.2 / 5 (13) Nov 08, 2015
antigoracle wrote:

If you need God to direct your moral compass, then I offer you my pity.


Exactly! And the premise is wrong. People who are ignorant and fearful are more likely to use religion as a crutch and less likely to see the benefits of generosity. It requires looking a few moves ahead. Anyone that can do that has discarded religion.

This is what religious people just can't grasp. Granted, when guys regularly whipped women around by the hair and a stranger would just kill you to take what you happen to be carrying and leaders regularly tortured people for fun, it made sense to use a fairy story to make everyone behave. How retrograde are religious types that they still need it? They can't accept that we have progressed to the point that anyone with 1/2 a brain already does most of what's in their scriptures. The rest is self-serving nonsense. If faith is a gift, why didn't God give you a few more IQ points, religous types?
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
The theory of evolution is always connected with moral degradation and violence,

That is crap.

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

You mean "you are either with us or you are against us" . Please use clear language.




Mike_Massen
1.6 / 5 (13) Nov 08, 2015
viko_mx Fails with
The theory of evolution is always connected with moral degradation and violence, and you just demonstrated this mind set
Grasping at straws, focusing on a comment here is the best you can do ?

viko_mx isn't achieving anything here, he comes across as an uneducated sociopath

viko_mx incoherent ignores nature
Just because this theory is trying to excuse the lawlessness is society
No. Evidence all around, your narrow mindset rejects it, indicted !

viko_mx bearing false witness Again claims
..not able to defend your position with scientific facts and therefore insist to leave the cite with the unsupported by facts claim that the believe in the Creator in not scientific
How does this 'crator' communicate ?

viko_mx claims
...serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon
Obviously dont come here then, problem solved :-)
animah
3.7 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
statistics definitely show the connection between atheism and the surge of crime and lawlessness in society as a result of constantly degraded moral standard


it seems that will not get concrete answers from my opponents


Concrete answer:

Intentional homicide rate by country:
https://en.wikipe...ide_rate

Rates of religious belief by country:
https://en.wikipe..._country

These 2 lists show clearly that in the western world, murder rates are inversely proportional to religious belief rates.

If you say belief and morality are correlated, then please produce statistics that support your position because mine say you're wrong.
animah
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 08, 2015
but work to reduce or eliminate (sins)

Since this is about the utility of the belief (not the truth of the belief), this is a fair argument.

But the article asks: Is this an effective strategy, especially as it's been deployed for so long? And besides the article, the stats I posted earlier (and a myriad others like rate of religiosity in prisons vs. in the public etc) indicate that it is, in fact, completely ineffective.

For example Japan, where 80% of the population answered "no religion" on the last census, has the 3rd lowest murder rate per capita in the world.

So again: Can you show +any+ concrete statistical evidence that religious belief correlates with higher morality in today's world? What about more religious States vs. less religious ones? Because in the case of crime rates, I can't find any.
Mike_Massen
2.3 / 5 (16) Nov 08, 2015
BartV claims
The true religion of Christianity is one of peace and love
Beg pardon, jesus wanted to kill timothy over a stupid argument, is that a good example ?

BartV claims
The Bible itself tells us that God is love
Really ?
So when the god kills 50,000 for only looking in a box this is a great example of love ?

Jobe ?

Bible Can't tell, its a story that only claims, sad that :-(

BartV claims
He loves every single one of you..
Really ?
How so BartV, by making sure everyone suffers for ever because god didnt educate Eve re Guile ?

BartV let slip
.. and we as Christians are commanded to do the same
Ah I see !
Need to be commanded because you have NIL intrinsic empathy, so sad

BartV claims
That does not mean that we are to ignore truth
But you do, actions speak much louder than any claims of love, your god ACTS as a Devil !

BartV claims
Sin needs to be dealt with
Really ?
Such as making sure children die of leukemia at 18 mnths ?
Benni
3.6 / 5 (14) Nov 08, 2015
Religions cannot exist without violence. And as viko knows, this extends all the way to the family.


OK, so then explain the violent history of Communism? During the past century more people have died for the perpetuation of that failed irreligious monstrosity than the holocaust Genghis Khan committed in the middle east when he put to the sword the entire population of Iraq.

The content of everything you've posted gives the atrocities of the irreligious a total pass, all you want to talk about is evil committed by the "religious", and you dwell on Christendom & Jewry. Any besides those two you'd like to take to task?

animah
5 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
highest abortion rates in the world, rampant alcoholism, probably the highest rate of hikikomori of any nation, and soaring child abuse cases

These statistics are all available. Would you please check your facts and point to your sources? This is a science site after all.

explain the violent history of Communism

But Russia (and Germany before the war) had majority rates of belief before and since! That did not magically switch off and then on again afterwards. These people still swept these hideous Governments to power. This shows again that prior belief did not change anything.
animah
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 08, 2015
Actually I'm interested enough to do this myself:

List of countries by alcohol consumption per capita:
https://en.wikipe...r_capita

Child maltreatment death in rich nations (page 4):
http://www.unicef...rd5e.pdf

Abortions per capita:
http://www.nation...per-1000

Japan ranks at the low to middle level. As an aside, much lower than the US on every count.

I'm not including hikikomori as that's neither a crime nor a sin.

So far the facts simply do not support your position. Do you want to discuss any other numbers?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 08, 2015
The true religion of Christianity is one of peace and love
@bart
this is your BELIEF- there is NO "true xtianity"... and perhaps you should re-read your bible?

Violence cleanses evil PROV 20:30

enslave your neighbors who worship other gods LEV 25:44-46

you should kill people who work on the sabbath (SAT, not SUN) NUM 15:32-36

Kill children who curse their parents EXO 21:15,17

selling your daughter is ok-here are the ways to do it EXO 21:7-8

Rape is a crime against the husband. women who don't shout loud enough when being raped should be killed, regardless of the reason for the rape DEUT 22:23-24

Women are not equivalent to men 1TIM 2:12

Jesus didn't bring peace, but came to pit family against each other LUK 12:51-53

Jesus didn't bring peace MAT 10:34

Now, this is just a quick glance through!
you shouldn't even be teaching your bible (JER 31: 27-39) as it means you don't believe your own deity

qquax
3.7 / 5 (6) Nov 08, 2015
@viko_mx you apparently don't know many atheists.
Vietvet
4.6 / 5 (9) Nov 09, 2015
@qquax

Sorry, meant to give you a "5'.
Mike_Massen
2.1 / 5 (15) Nov 09, 2015
BartV asked
What Bible are you referring to? Surely not the Christian Bible
Nice of you to reply, which raises one of many key questions, which one of the many is the correct one ?

How does your deity, any deity ever communicate clearly & effectively to all ?

BartV claims
You don't even seem to be able to talk proper English
What in particular ?

BartV claims
Your other outrageous claims also do not square with the Bible that I know
Samuel re ark of covenenant.
genesis re god not educating Eve in Guile & foreknowledge of the test he knew she would fail :-(

BartV demanded
Please tell me your sources, or shut up
Working on sources, there are many versions - please answer 1st question re "which version" ?

But, just HOW did your claimed deity, any deity ever unequivocally confirm which version is perfect ?

BartV claimed
You are making a fool of yourself
Perhaps, the timothy ref eludes me at present but, YOU proselytize on a Science site :P
animah
4.1 / 5 (9) Nov 09, 2015
Hi Bart,

(1) That's not my experience having worked 8 years in Japan - they do (we did) drink a fair bit socially but alcoholics are rare (in fact rarer than France where I also lived many years).

(2) 66,000 / 127 million inhabitants = 0.0005. Yes, I can read kanji.

(3) Similar to Western Europe. Half the US rate. Hardly invalidates my point.

(4) No extant evidence it relates to religion (other than your fuzzy feeling).

Anyway I was just using Japan as an example. Where is the large scale statistical evidence that religion measurably improves people's lives? If you have any, I really want to see it. Especially as religion is a major source of conflict in today's world so it would be a nice counterpoint for a change.

The problem is, I can't find any that qualifies as +evidence+. Can you?
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 09, 2015
you seem to know a lot about the Bible
@Bart
more than you know
but you fail miserably when you try to apply to real life
1- you don't know anything about my real life
2- do you try to apply Spider Man comics to real life? how about BatMan? Superman? Hulk? the X-Men?
no comprehension of the law vs grace
i know more about it than you
but more importantly, i know that xtians like to "cherry pick" what they want to justify their life
I would discuss further, but I doubt you are interested in serious discussion
actually, i would be interested... but YOU would not be interested

i am interested because of the psychological issues that are demonstrated when someone chooses to ignore empirical data and reality over a delusional belief

and there is no need to give me any verses to meditate on... i have lived with and learned more about the bible than you ever will- i still study it, along with many other religions
Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
@bart cont'd
Let me leave you ...medidate on
[sic] let me instead leave you with some

you are supposed to be a xtian, but what does that mean?
you are NOT one of the chosen people (the first covenant with the Jews) thus, per your own bible, you can't be "created" by your deity... only Adam and Eve were (and then sent into the world, where their sons took wives... from where? the monkeys?)

according to your bible, you are a part of the second covenant with your deity... do you even know what that means?
NO, YOU DON'T
read JER 31:27- 37

so as defined by the above scripture, (the second covenant) for you to come here pontificating about your interpretations of the bible/religion means you know SQUAT about it, and worse yet, that you don't care what your deity says- you don't believe your own deity!

did your god lie to you?
why do you think you need to spread the word if it says you don't need to? right there in the book!

Captain Stumpy
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
@bart
last post
every single one of your commandments are also still applicable to xtians, per your own jesus beliefs... this means, per your admission to xtianity, that you are directly violating the laws of your own religion

is that the example i should follow for "when [I] try to apply to real life"?

are you saying that what i need to do to be a good xtian is to be like everyone i see in xtianity and lie, cheat and refuse to accept your own codified rules?

you ignore the core ten commandments, so why should they be important to anyone else?

this is one of the points of the study
children (and adults) of xtianity/religion believe, since they're taught that belief means heaven, that they will be forgiven and entered into heaven with Big G
problem is, this means psychologically, that they live life ignoring the tenets because "they go to church"

hypocrisy

this proves that morality is NOT a biblical/religious thing
it's natural and emergent
my2cts
2.9 / 5 (15) Nov 09, 2015
Torbjorn_Larsson says:
Statistics and history says religiosity is either irrelevant - people give much the same aid money irregardless - or harmful - most religious "aid money" goes towards feeding religious structures. And then we have the immoral basis for religion, immortalized by the Inquisition among others...


He being one of the most atheist and anti-religion scientist on comment forum, he is representatvie of the many other atheist scientists on this forum, where he evidencies his complete hypocrisy by trying to comment on religion himself, while getting angry at others for ever trying to mention religion, and even reporting those who do.

This phys.org website itself really has a double standard.


@BartV
Religion has no place here, nor in science nor in any public affairs.
It promotes cultural retardation and tribalism.
Read the OT about tribalism.
my2cts
3 / 5 (16) Nov 09, 2015
What some scientists don't understand is that religions can be quite the opposite from one another---and yet still try to lump them all into the same ball of clay.

You are right. The reason "some" scientists do that is because all religions have in common that they promote ignorance, while science promotes knowledge.
my2cts
2.9 / 5 (15) Nov 09, 2015
Another thing all religions have in common,
is that their prophets spread their faith by violence.
Most scientists oppose violence, BartV.
http://skepticsan...ist.html
Timray
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 09, 2015
amazing is it not that thru all of this they choose to ignore that say Communism was responsible for the death of millions....Fascism the same....Science has given us every advancement in weaponry....the Inquisition is often brought up and yet the facts are very few people lost their lives but a lot of women lost property....while doctors are dedicated to saving life yet they are the 3rd leading cause of death....Genghis Khan was very religious tolerant and murdered millions, and there is nothing more alarming than the elitist attitudes of those who cannot decide whether it is butter or margarine....and when it comes to Global Warming, morons with hockey sticks that cannot predict next weeks weather let alone the next century, a scientist now ranks with used car salesmen and lawyers, maybe we will get an eventual answer to why Chinese prostitutes who are inebriated fail to wear protection, how many laps can a shrimp do on a treadmill,such are the strumpets of government funding
Benni
3.5 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
Another thing all religions have in common,
is that their prophets spread their faith by violence.
Most scientists oppose violence, BartV.


Communism is a religion according to your numerical statistics?

More human life has been lost under the auspices of that creed than any other in the past century......Or do you sim[ply reserve your criticism of propensity for "violence" to those who read a specific holy book? What critical analyses might you posit for the Communist Manifesto & those who practice that creed to this very day.

It appears that in your mindset it all boils down to whom it is committing the "violence" & when it was done? Murderous Islamists & Communists of the present day get a pass from you Mr <2cts Worth, why is that? All you're doing is dwelling in the past, get updated.

antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Nov 09, 2015
The problem is the same. When people start to follow blindly without understanding (be it through religious belief, national pride, unfounded/artificially created fears*) you get catastrophic outcomes.
All these systems have one thing in common: they attract those that cannot think for themselves or are too lazy to do so. And, of course, they attract people who crave power - as a populace that doesn't think is easy to take advantage of.

* One country currently tries all three at once. Here's an interesting map which shows what country in the world thinks who is the highest threat to world peace.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CxHMeWfKdHk/maxresdefault.jpg
Mike_Massen
2.1 / 5 (14) Nov 09, 2015
@BartV
Christians, the true types are forgiving, not vindictive, your record of down voting those you disagree with is an indication of persecution, the best thing would have been to not vote at all, that would be consistent with what your god told you to do but, then again:-

Claims don't cut it - as the greeks implied some >600yrs before jesus and they offered the "Golden Rule" too discussed often before jesus "Treat others as well as you treat yourselves" and of course "Actions speak louder than words".

An apology from you would be most gracious and your god would be pleased no doubt.

Now have a stab at questions in my most recent post, they are simple issue of logic & essentials ?

Evidence BartV, anything, even a little substantive communications from your claimed deity ?
Benni
4 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
The true religion of Christianity is one of peace and love


@bart this is your BELIEF- there is NO "true xtianity"... and perhaps you should re-read your bible?

Violence cleanses evil PROV 20:30

enslave your neighbors who worship other gods LEV 25:44-46

you should kill people who work on the sabbath (SAT, not SUN) NUM 15:32-36

Kill children who curse their parents EXO 21:15,17

selling your daughter is ok-here are the ways to do it EXO 21:7-8

Rape is a crime against the husband. women who don't shout loud enough when being raped should be killed, regardless of the reason for the rape DEUT 22:23-24

Women are not equivalent to men 1TIM 2:12

you shouldn't even be teaching your bible (JER 31: 27-39) as it means you don't believe your own deity


Just maybe you should take some time out & read the Koran Stumpy, almost every critical remark you've highlighted above can also be found in the Koran & indeed is actively practiced by Islamists today.
Benni
3.7 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
The problem is the same. When people start to follow blindly without understanding (be it through religious belief, national pride, unfounded/artificially created fears*) you get catastrophic outcomes.
All these systems have one thing in common: they attract those that cannot think for themselves or are too lazy to do so. And, of course, they attract people who crave power - as a populace that doesn't think is easy to take advantage of.


But you wouldn't label present day Islamism & Communism in these categories would you? Of course you wouldn't, and it's simply because it's safer to go after old tenets from Jewish & Christian texts which have never been practiced by them for thousands of years.

I guess you, Stumpy, Massen, Animah, 2cts & a few more here have a selective mindset for ostracization of selective words from just a single book that is only practiced by adherents of another religion you refuse to name as practitioners of those selective passages.

cgsperling
3.8 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
Any belief system that downplays our earthly existence in favor of a supposedly more important afterlife is bound to reduce one's empathy for any mortal suffering. This is why religion is evil.
gkam
1.6 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
I have an idea: Let's divide up into several groups. Each group can invent an Imaginary Being. We can weave all kinds of legends around our Imaginary Beings, and endow them with ridiculous powers.

Then, we can kill each other over whose Imaginary Being is the "Real One"!
Mike_Massen
1.6 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
Benni claims in reference to Communism
More human life has been lost under the auspices of that creed than any other in the past century
The creed is not the problem, whether it be any religion, democracy or even national socialism ie facism.

Decisions to murder dissenters is not implicit in any particular creed unless it is explicitly stated so, as it is for religions...

Surely it is obvious its squarely the moral intent of leaders who wield great power

ie. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao pursued power & control displaying paranoia against any they considered a threat - this also went for 2IC groups Eg security forces which can exist in any creed & is the same re all religions. The slightly better form of government ie democracy Eg Switzerland but, there too if the leaders choose - opponents can be silently assassinated regardless & often before apathy reversed Eg Egypt.

Western Democracies more oversight but, even there the $ is the equivalent power key
Benni
3.9 / 5 (11) Nov 09, 2015
Benni in reference to Communism


More human life has been lost under the auspices of that creed than any other in the past century

The creed is not the problem, whether it be any religion, democracy or even national socialism
Oh really. All we're reading about from you are critiques of Bible texts that no one in the Western World is practicing, unless of course they are small groups of Islamists living here.

Hey, viko_mix , are you practicing any of that stuff Stumpy quoted? According to Stumpy that must be the case. Maybe 2cts does?

Decisions to murder dissenters is not implicit in any particular creed unless it is explicitly stated so, as it is for religions,
Seriously, you need to undertake a reading of the Koran & implicit meanings within the Communist Manifesto.

Western Democracies more oversight but, even there the $ is the equivalent power key
I have a 401k & IRA in US stock market accounts, that makes me a murderer?
cgsperling
2.5 / 5 (8) Nov 09, 2015
I have an idea: Let's divide up into several groups. Each group can invent an Imaginary Being. We can weave all kinds of legends around our Imaginary Beings, and endow them with ridiculous powers.

Then, we can kill each other over whose Imaginary Being is the "Real One"!


"What a beautiful, uplifting, transcendent idea. Let's use it to kill some folk!" - All Religious History - Joss Whedon
Mike_Massen
1.6 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
Benni says
More human life has been lost under the auspices of that creed than any other in the past century
Sure but, as any engineer knows full well from Physics experimental methodology - correlation is not proof of causation.

Take reverse Benni, see how causation isnt a dependent correlation. Look at US constitution, not particularly bad as per the Australian but, there are far more murders in US per capita than Aust.

Benni claims
All we're reading about from you are critiques of Bible texts that no one in the Western World is practicing
Bad claim & No I'm addressing your claim re a creed

Eg Cuba, communist but lower murders than US per capita AND very low cost health care, its chance the leaders don't act same as Stalin despite it being firmly communist !

Not on islam but, with >2 billion isnt it great they don't automatically struggle against "the infidel" as per koran ?

Eg. Stalin a dictator NOT a communist, same as Pol Pot, Mao

Evidence Benni
my2cts
3.2 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
Stumpy---your last comments prove again your absolute misunderstanding of the Holy Text. You have no desire to really understand it.

I am done casting my pearls before swine.


Your factless opinions, copy pasted form other religious folks, hardly qualify as pearls.
It also strikews me again how a religious nut qualifies others as animals.
Monkeys and swines. You are possibly as evil as viko.
my2cts
2.8 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
amazing is it not that thru all of this they choose to ignore that say Communism

Too bad, communism is not the subject here. This diversion does not work.
my2cts
3 / 5 (14) Nov 09, 2015
He loves every single one of you, and we as Christians are commanded to do the same.

Have you ever been loved by someone who was COMMANDED to do so?
I have not had the pleasure and want to keep it that way in the context of my very high moral standards.
my2cts
3.4 / 5 (15) Nov 09, 2015

The Creator consider the people who do not obey His moral laws and principles that support life in the universe as wicked, whose final destination is the lake of fire.

You enjoy threatening others. A "lake of fire", so much for the "good news" !
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 09, 2015
animah---you evidently lived in kind of bubble in Japan
@bart
not really. i lived there as well, in several communities, from poorer Tokyo and other fishing villages to middle class city Sagamihara https://en.wikipe...gamihara

the closest we got to "abuse" was when a little old lady almost ran us over trying to return the 3 months of wages we accidentally dropped on the street(more than 3 months for her, BTW)
your last comments prove again your absolute misunderstanding of the Holy Text...I am done casting my pearls before swine
So, what you are saying is:
you don't have evidence nor the capability to prove your point, even using your holy comic
AND
since i know your holy comic better than you, you fear my ability to undermine your faith
SO
you will run away to cast your violent stupidity upon other less intellectual people that will follow without question?

gotcha! thanks for admitting it!
isn't fanaticism great?
Captain Stumpy
4.4 / 5 (8) Nov 09, 2015
Just maybe you should take some time out & read the Koran Stumpy
@benni
actually, i have. i have a couple different copies
the Abrahamic faiths are all the same, based upon the same books (Muslims, Jews, Christians)
I guess you, Stumpy,... have a selective mindset for ostracization of selective words from just a single book
nope. i was making a specific point to an xtian... communism is, like AA_P pointed out, no different than a religion
it requires absolute surrender and strict adherence to the dogma (until, of course, you rise to the top ranks... then it is about scratching each others backs for favors or power, just like any other political party)

in fact, you can say that political parties in general share a lot with religion in that they use social pressures and dogma to enforce party membership & peer-pressure others to make decisions that are blatantly false (example- See: Dr. Carson saying prison turns people gay. no evidence at all, but party line)
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 09, 2015
@benni cont'd
More human life has been lost under the auspices of that creed than any other in the past century
but that is just the last century... how does that compare to wholesale slaughter of each other for the entire history of humans?
there are so many dead from the Inquisition and Holy Wars that there isn't even a clear body count... and that doesn't even include religious sponsored genocide to the western hemisphere and native tribes of the American continents...
communism isn't being ignored...

.

I have an idea: Let's divide up into several groups. Each group can invent an Imaginary Being. We can weave all kinds of legends around our Imaginary Beings, and endow them with ridiculous powers.

Then, we can kill each other over whose Imaginary Being is the "Real One"!
@gkam
nah... that's being done already! LMFAO
animah
5 / 5 (6) Nov 09, 2015
My point is that Japan...


I was hoping you would make a point of proposing present world numbers that support your assertions.

All we got is bickering about how nation-wide statistics are no match for your subjective experience as a gaijin some place. That was disappointing.

As for others spouting this old canard that dictators are somehow related to atheism. Look, they're megalomaniacs. Nations empower megalomaniacs throughout history. Hitler was religious. Germans never stopped being religious. It prevented nothing. If anything, it only helped them see him as a messiah. How easily humans of all stripes build their own cages...
matt_s
2.7 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
I remember growing up and going to a christian grade school, getting a christian high school education, attending catechism, taking electives on church history, etc etc. I loved the Bible. I memorized that book like no one else I've ever met. I knew every obscure story, would read all the footnotes, would read published guidebooks on it, etc.

However, during all that time, I remember when a hard question came up, it was always so much easier to avoid it and put it out of mind as a curiosity that's probably explainable, and that worked, for awhile.

However, then I got to college. I attended a top university for engineering, and we learned we needed to justify our assumptions. Well, I started thinking about those hard questions again, because those qualified as assumptions. After a couple years of reviewing them, I decided the Christian religion is full of it. Never regretted that decision, because once you look objectively, it becomes soooooo clear how made up religion truly is.

matt_s
2.7 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
For example, some of those hard questions...
-If God is omniscient, why would he create Satan? He KNEW what he would do. Moreover, if God plans the future, then God planned for him to do it. The concept of free will just takes God's omniscience and omnipotence away from him. There's no way around it. Either he knew and planned it, or he's not omniscient.
-Sins of Omission. https://en.wikipe...omission . God commits more of these than any human ever could. If we accept God knows everything, this concept single highhandedly makes God the most sinful being imaginable.
-Inconsistent Morals of God. Consider Joshua. The Israelites literally slay entire towns. Men. Women. Children. On God's orders. Instead of converting them (see, Rahab), they just slay them all. Consider when Elisha calls on God to send bears to kill children, just for making fun of his head. Totally worth killing 40 kids. The list is endless.
-Lack of evidence. Ex. A global flood. No evidence.

etc
my2cts
3 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
@ Matt_s
Great conversion (deconversion? reversion?) testimony.
(The word "testimony" is ours and we take it back.
In fact the church buildings were built and paid for by our ancestors
so we should take those back as well).
my2cts
3 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
@ matt_s
What about the 3000 of his own people Moses had run through with the sword to pacify his god ?
Benni
3.8 / 5 (10) Nov 09, 2015
@ matt_s
What about the 3000 of his own people Moses had run through with the sword to pacify his god ?


....and through all these discussions above, what is the religion that continues to be the focus of criticism? Yeah, Judaism & Christendom. And those doing the critique will not make even a glancing blow of criticism of the horrors of tens of millions of human sacrifices dying for the creeds of Communism & Islam.

The best you can do 2cts is 3000? Are you aware in 2014 17,000 unarmed Iraqi civilians were butchered by ISIS? And 2015 is on pace to exceed that........but you're not criticizing the religious nutjobs doing this, Instead you fall back recounting an incident of 3000 years ago from a religious book almost no one here believes in? Why do you care so much about the contents of that book? How about the contents of today's news headlines? Any criticisms for this behavior, or just the lifestyle of viko_mix who probably couldn't raise a hand to injure anyone.

jsdarkdestruction
5 / 5 (6) Nov 09, 2015
I have some questions on this all forgiving merciful god.
What would god do if the devil were to see the light so to speak and begged gods forgiveness and for his mercy and truly was sorry and truly did now love god totally?
What if a fallen angel now a demon in hell did so?
What if a human soul in hell did so?
Also, when is it too late for humans to change? I know deathbed conversions and absolutions are fine but what if someone finds themselves about to be judged and then converts and believe in Jesus's sacrifice for them?
One last one, if Christ dying was required to cleanse our communal sins and get us into heaven does everyone who died before he did go to hell? If not then what suddenly mandated the change and why? Sin got so bad he killed off trillions of life forms and a bunch of other stuff but it wasn't severe enough to need Jesus to be born and die yet?
animah
5 / 5 (6) Nov 09, 2015
(not) criticizing the religious nutjobs doing this


Posting, by definition, is inviting response. If you post, people respond. That's the purpose of this forum.

But the only fundies who post on this forum are Xian!

Now the day a muslim fundie posts here, trust me there will far stronger arguments!

Plenty of non-religious people get into heated arguments here, you're not special. Hell, I've gotten my head reformatted a couple of times for being anti-gun... The difference is now that I know there are such strong sentiments about this, I tone down on this subject so we can move on to other things. No point re-hashing the same things over and over again.

We all know very well you believe you have found The One True God(TM). Instead of repeating it again and again, how about you join the discussion by using scientific tools to support your POV? Like what I tried soliciting from BartV above. Because hey, this is a +science+ site.
animah
5 / 5 (7) Nov 09, 2015
One more thing Benni, viko, verkle et. al.: By always rehashing the same arguments, you just reinforce stereotypes people have about you which is the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

Prove us wrong! Use rational logic supported by sourced evidence in defense of your point of view. Propose new arguments when the old ones have been fully argued and counter-argued. Then we can have real debates. I for one would welcome it.
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 09, 2015
as a gaijin some place
@animah
not all of us gaijin are bad :-)

.
those doing the critique will not make even a glancing blow of criticism of the horrors of tens of millions of human sacrifices dying for the creeds of Communism & Islam
@benni
first off: islam (muslims) is an abrahamic religion, thus it is the same basis as judaism and xtianity, so it is NOT different
neither is communism, as it requires the same blind obedience without thought as a religion...

secondly: the topic in the thread (and study) is about RELIGION
Does religion make kids less generous?
by definition, this means the abrahamic faiths (like muslims [& ISIS], Jews, and xtians) and i hope to see further studies including Buddhism and more

so this is actually the thread for the religious to "stick up" for their POV and not be OT
except that it also is a thread proving their hypocrisy as well
Benni
3.3 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
We
..who are the "We"? You & Ira?

..all know very well you believe you have found The One True God(TM). Instead of repeating it again and again
I said this? Where? Your imagination is running wild, and the more you post the more you find yourself groping around in a convoluted circle of psycho-babble searching for a cogent thought.

how about you join the discussion by using scientific tools to support your POV?


Then you should do the same as you "preach". What "scientific tools" did you employ for your preceding critiques of those you are labeling as "fundies"? When I as a Nuclear/Electrical Engineer want to talk about the contents of Einstein's SR & GR, it's the likes of your upvoting cohorts who go berserk with agony & start in with their foul mouthed profanity, and they're all right here.

Like what I tried soliciting from BartV . Because hey this is a +science+ site
Whoa there, science is not the topic here, stick to the topic.
Uncle Ira
4.3 / 5 (12) Nov 09, 2015
We
..who are the "We"? You & Ira?


@Bennie-Skippy. Did you bump your head Cher? I have not even wrote anything yet on this comment section. Podna, you got mixed up that we and you.

But other than that, how you are Cher? I am good enough me, thanks for asking.
Mike_Massen
2.2 / 5 (13) Nov 09, 2015
Benni claims
When I as a Nuclear/Electrical Engineer want to talk about the contents of Einstein's SR & GR, it's the likes of your upvoting cohorts who go berserk with agony & start in with their foul mouthed profanity
Beg pardon, you Appeal to Authority ie your own but, you don't write with any engineering sensibility...

Since YOU claim then,
Tell us which university & when graduated & what particular degree please ?

And whilst at it, tell us what you meant recently by "Statistical Probabilities" ?

Benni stated
Whoa there, science is not the topic here..
Beg pardon ?
Its part and parcel of the procedure of validating claims, the digression re religion is fine within that as those who understand the discipline of Science understand the value of evidence and rational interpretation of it ?

ie. Topic is re a study which obviously compiled cognisant of principles in Science, discussion of religion in that context is fine and evaluation is via Science :-)
animah
5 / 5 (5) Nov 10, 2015
not all of us gaijin are bad

I know, I was one too :-)
convoluted circle of psycho-babble

Um, I made a real effort to discuss statistics in support -or not- of the utility of belief. Anyway, you're ranting now, I'll just sign off.
my2cts
3 / 5 (12) Nov 10, 2015
@ matt_s
What about the 3000 of his own people Moses had run through with the sword to pacify his god ?


....and through all these discussions above, what is the religion that continues to be the focus of criticism? Yeah, Judaism & Christendom.

Moses is also a prophet of Islam, you ignoramus.

The best you can do 2cts is 3000? Are you aware in 2014 17,000

You have to see that in its historical context.
I know you are unable to see things in context Benni.
3000 of your own people 3000 years ago, thats a lot.
unarmed Iraqi civilians were butchered by ISIS?

ISIS is based on religion so I am missing your point here.
Also, communism is not a religion. No gods.
my2cts
3 / 5 (12) Nov 10, 2015
When I as a Nuclear/Electrical Engineer want to talk about the contents of Einstein's SR & GR, it's the likes of your upvoting cohorts who go berserk with agony & start in with their foul mouthed profanity, and they're all right here.

Please tell us how only you know about Differential Equations, Benni.
Because all scientists are too stupid !
my2cts
3.3 / 5 (14) Nov 10, 2015
Anyone can perform a similar study under socialist or communist youth. After it is published it can be discussed here.
Little can be said in favour of communism, but here's my two cents. The Manifesto of 1848, written in London, should be read in the historical context of the extortion of the Irish in the British empire resulting in the famine of 1847 and mass emigration. Ireland today has only 4.9 million inhabitants compared to 8 million in 1800. Also in its favour counts that the October revolution put an end to the feodal, antisemitic, pogrom organising dictatorship of the _christian_ Nicolas II.
viko_mx
2.5 / 5 (8) Nov 10, 2015
Your thesis is that all religions are the same, but such a statement has nothing to do with truth. Christianity is a faith that is very different from other religions.
Lucifer knows who have real power and righteousness and trying to attack the Son of God and the word of God recorded in the Bible. History is eloquent on this issue. It does not attack the abstract deities such as Buddha, Shiva, etc. He attack is against the Son of God, because after He rose and ascended to heaven, for luci remained no hope that he would ever wield to role even a microscopic particle of the universe.
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 10, 2015
Your thesis is that all religions are the same, but such a statement has nothing to do with truth
@viko
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.[note 1]
https://en.wikipe...Religion

a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
Merriam-Webster

a religion is a set of codified tenets/rules specifically designed to judge others for the sake of inclusion or exclusion from a group of like minded, thus it IS the same as any other religion

your argument that xtianity as a separate religion is false: it is a separate "faith", not religion

the only evidence you have is a book that is also shared by Jews, muslims (means islam too, and ISIS, as ISIS is based in islam/muslim beliefs)
xtianity is an Abrahamic (Semitic) religion
https://en.wikipe...eligions

learn to read
Captain Stumpy
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 10, 2015
@vikoDERP cont'd
and trying to attack the Son of God and the word of God recorded in the Bible. History is eloquent on this issue
there is no "history", nor is there evidence to support your claim, so this is called a false claim
http://www.auburn...ion.html

It does not attack the abstract deities such as Buddha, Shiva, etc. He attack is against the Son of God, because after He rose and ascended to heaven
1- false claim
2- JER 31:27-37
3- how do you know he/it won't attack Buddhists? did he/it tell you that?
could you share the source of your info? is it written anywhere except in your head and in your personal beliefs?

there is not one part of your post that is provable!

.

.

I know, I was one too :-)
@Animah
if you were one, but are not considered one now, then i give you MAJOR KUDOS
especially knowing how the culture tends to view gaijin!

WOW
AWESOME
i am jealous!
my2cts
3 / 5 (12) Nov 10, 2015
Your thesis is that all religions are the same, but such a statement has nothing to do with truth.

I did not make any such statement.
Christianity is a faith that is very different from other religions.
Lucifer knows who have real power and righteousness and trying to attack the Son of God and the word of God recorded in the Bible.

So your faith rests as much on satan as on god. Zoroastrian perhaps ?
History is eloquent on this issue.

I need a few quotes here.
It does not attack the abstract deities such as Buddha, Shiva, etc. He attack is against the Son of God, because ...

In fact, satan is just a remnant of baal, whose cult was destroyed by a.o. David, no doubt along with many of the followers. He's the competition so jahweh makes him look bad. The horrible laws in Deuteronomy and the first three commandments are testimony of this violent period.
animah
5 / 5 (5) Nov 10, 2015
i give you MAJOR KUDOS

Thanks but I don't deserve them... Moved to Australia a few years back :-)
jsdarkdestruction
5 / 5 (6) Nov 10, 2015
The devil is a fallen angel who questioned gods plan but was an extremely high ranking angel second only to god but he's beyond gods holy spirit and light? Why would god create such a being? If he could not be saved/redeemed then why did god spend his time trying to show the devil his way is right. Like job and how god killed all jobs loved ones and destroyed all his property to prove to the devil job's belief in god wasn't because god had blessed him with such a fine life without suffering and that jobs love for god would only grow greater with suffering.
Also, Don't some versions of the story of the devils fall say god says to Satanthat only when hell is empty and all humans go right to heaven can he regain his place in heaven?
Says a lot about your gods mercy and how much he loves his followers and looks after them. Hes willing to do all that horrible stuff to prove a point to the devil?
Mike_Massen
1.9 / 5 (9) Nov 22, 2015
viko_mx claims
Christianity is a faith that is very different from other religions
No, all based *only* on (emotional) claim, all badly communicated too & fully dependent on random advances in technology: from talking to books to telephone to internet & over very long periods ie bad

viko_mx claims
Lucifer knows who have real power and righteousness and trying to attack the Son of God and the word of God recorded in the Bible
Really - a story ?

Otherwise than stories how could you know mind of any deities principle angels ?

viko_mx claims
He attack is against the Son of God, because after He rose and ascended to heaven..
Claims of hysterical women, is that anything like evidence ?

viko_mx claims
.. for luci remained no hope that he would ever wield to role even a microscopic particle of the universe
Beg pardon /

Your god made lucifer knowing full well it would be bad & make all of creation suffer because the god set up eve to fail.

Love ?

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