The world's most polluting coal plants are identified

March 19, 2015, Oxford University

New research from the Stranded Assets Programme at the University of Oxford's Smith School of Enterprise and the Environment has identified the least efficient coal-fired power stations in the world.

The study which analyses the world's 100 largest 'subcritical company portfolios', those containing with least efficient and most polluting form of coal-fired , has found that 39% of them are in in China, 21% in the US, 10% in the EU, and 9% in India. Over half (59%) are owned by governments globally.

In addition to the average subcritical coal-fired power station generating 75% more carbon pollution as the most up-to-date type of coal-fired power station, they also use 67% more water, and create significant amounts of , according to the study.

It argues the subcritical coal plants are most at risk of becoming 'stranded assets', or assets that experience unanticipated or premature write-downs, devaluations, or conversion to liabilities because of their carbon intensity and contribution to local air pollution and water stress.

The research also shows which companies own these assets and ranks them by exposure to financial risk. It assesses the implications for investors and summarises possible responses from fixed-income and equity investors, rating agencies, and others.

It highlights that the International Energy Agency has warned that to limit global emissions to a level consistent with a 2°C future, it will be necessary to close around a quarter of all subcritical coal-fired power stations worldwide by 2020.

Ben Caldecott, lead author and director of the Stranded Assets Programme at the University of Oxford's Smith School of Enterprise and the Environment, said: 'There is a strong case for investors to evaluate the risk of companies exposed to the least efficient coal plants, as these assets are at the greatest risk of becoming stranded due to a wide range of environmental and social factors.

'Subcritical plants are typically older and more expensive to operate. Consequently, they may represent a sound choice for closure by budget-constrained policymakers looking for cost-effective ways of tackling .'

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gkam
1 / 5 (5) Mar 19, 2015
Do you know what subcritical means? It means they only operate below the triple point of water. Our main natural gas plants in California are supercritical, operating above the triple point, using the steam almost as a plasma.

When I brought up our plants were limited by metallurgy, somebody like otto really had a laugh, not understanding it is the limits of metallurgy which determines the delta-T available for extraction of energy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Mar 19, 2015
Do you know what subcritical means? It means they only operate below the triple point of water. Our main natural gas plants in California are supercritical, operating above the triple point, using the steam almost as a plasma.

When I brought up our plants were limited by metallurgy, somebody like otto really had a laugh, not understanding it is the limits of metallurgy which determines the delta-T available for extraction of energy.
-which has little to do with the article. You just cant resist using any excuse to talk about yourself can you? Is this why people walk away from you at parties and everybody ignores you down at the VFW?

You walk into mcdonalds and all the old guys get up and leave dont they?
gkam
1 / 5 (5) Mar 19, 2015
Understanding the technology is important in understanding how systems should be operated. For those who have never operated complex systems, it is all fantasy.

I mentioned the point for you, otto, so you could understand why our thermal system efficiencies are limited by metallurgy. You thought it was silly last time I brought it up.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (6) Mar 19, 2015
Understanding the technology is important in understanding how systems should be operated. For those who have never operated complex systems, it is all fantasy
Mechanics and button pushers and grease monkeys and form filler-outers rarely know how complex machinery is designed to operate but they sometimes get the mistaken impression that they do. The personal shortcomings which lead them to this conclusion are often the reasons why they were incapable of getting formal educations and degrees and professional licences in the first place.

Because theyre just not very smart.
I mentioned the point for you, otto, so you could understand why our thermal system efficiencies are limited by metallurgy. You thought it was silly
-Theyre just not smart enough to recognize their personal motivations like the compulsive need to talk about themselves and their inability to admit it when theyre wrong. Their made-up world is too fragile for that you see.
gkam
1.7 / 5 (6) Mar 19, 2015
"Mechanics and button pushers and grease monkeys and form filler-outers rarely know how complex machinery is designed to operate but they sometimes get the mistaken impression that they do."
--------------------------------------------

Says one without even that much experience.

You resent accomplishment, don't you? You can't stand that I am real and backed it up, while you still hide behind a pseudonym. No,otto, you cannot challenge me with Wiki. You can't even read to the bottom of the pages to see where you went wrong.

This thread is about polluting coal plants. Been in one?
MR166
5 / 5 (6) Mar 19, 2015
" It means they only operate below the triple point of water. "

Now that I have to see since the triple point of water is 32.02F

You might mean the Critical Point of steam.
Eikka
4.3 / 5 (9) Mar 19, 2015
Do you know what subcritical means? It means they only operate below the triple point of water.


You don't.

The triple point of water is at 0.01 °C and 0.0060373 atm. The word you're looking for is in the name: the critical point, after which steam turns to supercritical fluid with properties of both liquid and gas.

And it has nothing to do with plasma. Not even "kind of".

You can't stand that I am real and backed it up


Yet, every time you try to present, or are requested specific information you should be intimately familiar with - given the profession or positions you claim to have held - you come short or fail completely.

You're a pathologial liar who is trying to appear authoritative in order to pass opinion for fact.
Eikka
4 / 5 (6) Mar 19, 2015
I am real and backed it up


You didn't. You never gave your real name.

You gave only obscure references to articles which are completely useless to identify your person or verify any of your claims.
MR166
5 / 5 (4) Mar 19, 2015
"You didn't. You never gave your real name.

Yea Gkam we need to know your name, dob, ss#, address and the name of your cat ( security question ). Don't worry the scientists on this P.org board are very trustworthy.
gkam
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 19, 2015
I am George Kamburoff, Eikka. Who are you? I identified myself twice, and this is the third time. I guess you were stoking the coal plant. Who is the otto, . . the guy to whom I was warned to not identify myself?

Oops, triplepoint, critical point, I got the name wrong. Only been 40- years. But neither of you goobers have any credentials at all, just big mouths and access to Wiki.

Eikka seems to be internet-savvy, maybe he can help you find NASA Technical Memorandum 81308 , August 1981 3 1176 00165 4699

Titled: "1980 .... Ames Research Center Publications: A Continuing Bibliography"

Eikka
4.1 / 5 (7) Mar 20, 2015
I am George Kamburoff, Eikka. Who are you?


It doesn't matter who I am, because I am not trying to ride on my reputation or "credentials" to sell you anything. I don't expect anyone to take my word just becuase I'm the one talking - I'd be aghast if you did.

That sort of intellectual honesty seems unfamiliar to you.

Oops, triplepoint, critical point, I got the name wrong. Only been 40- years. But neither of you goobers have any credentials at all, just big mouths and access to Wiki.


Again, Ad-Hominem fallacy. Who you are or what you have done has no bearing on what is true.

Your credentials carry absolutely no weight, especially when you constantly demonstrate ignorance or "misrememberance" of even the basic facts of your trade. You're talking way out of your area of expertise on half-rememberd factoids and presenting yourself as an expert.

Stop that.

And stop assuming credit for work you weren't actually involved in by constantly saying "we did..."
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (6) Mar 20, 2015
im george Kamburhoff
And you were once a Utility Engineer (mechanic). Did you have a Utility Belt?
http://youtu.be/D0F1fEQeWF8
Eikka
4 / 5 (6) Mar 20, 2015
After all, if you allow for an Ad-Hominem character assasination in return, just take a look at your own website Gkam:

http://www.kambur...rs1.html

What sort of a professional with shining credentials needs to write praising "customer" testimonies on his own site?


"You are the best!"
""I've been an electrical engineer for over 15 years, . . . and this is the first time I really understood it!""


Seriously?

In your words:

In the old days, individuals who bounced around different areas of expertise were known as people who couldn't hold a job. Now we call them Seasoned Generalists.


I would reply that in the old days, people were more honest about it. Jack of all trades, master in none.
gkam
1.6 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
I did that stuff, Eikka. Prove I didn't. You are angry now because you have no legs to stand on, but personal attack. They are identifying your beloved coal disasters and shutting them down one-by-one. Yes, you and otto cannot understand how somebody could have had those experiences. Tough.

That's why I identified myself, and why you and otto do not. We have no idea who or what you are except for your continuous bad-mouthing of any new power source, and otto's manic fixation on punishing me for outdoing him.

You sound like a kid in college, a sophomore, judging by your mentality and experience.

Sorry, Wiki-Warriors, some of us are real, if you are not.

Now, let's get back to the issue of your Filthy Fuels, and our remedies.

Eikka
4.5 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
I did that stuff, Eikka. Prove I didn't.


Demanding negative proof isn't getting you anywhere. That is another fallacy - the burden of proof is on you.

You are angry now because you have no legs to stand on, but personal attack.


You're the one who brought your own person into this, and I'm merely pointing out that it's not working.

They are identifying your beloved coal disasters....


You're beating a strawman. Your credibility is only harmed further by trying to paint other people into villains.

That's why I identified myself, and why you and otto do not. We have no idea who or what you are except for your continuous bad-mouthing of any new power source


I have been very plain in explaining the reasons and rationale behind my comments, but you keep twisting them into pro-coal anti-renewable in your own mind. You see what you want to see, unfortunately.

I will not speak for Otto, as I have no association with him.
Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf_Arf
2 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
I think he is the Joker.
http://youtu.be/5C-Qmzuib5g

-Dogs can smell disease you know? And I think what I am smelling here is a very sick old man.
gkam
2 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
With the developments in new technologies, we can shut down these disasters, these filthy polluters. Try as they do, the Deniers and the Coal-lovers are going to lose, and it becomes more and more apparent every day.

They remind me of Baghdad Bob, who was telling us he was winning as the troops were taking Baghdad itself.
gkam
2 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
Gosh, Eikka, you looked me up, and found out I am real, so you try to make fun of the words on my web page? Is that the lowest you can go? It proves no points but mine.

Let's discuss how wind and PV are going to shut down all coal plants.
Eikka
3.8 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
That's why I identified myself


You're still not understanding the point that your person is irrelevant. Nobody actually cares who you are or what you did - they only care about whether you're speaking the truth.

All you do is go on and on about what "you" have done, with little substance or actual relevant information pertaining to the subject, the little of which you usually get wrong, and then you get really angry and start making provocative accusations when your "enemies" start to provide actual detail and actual fact on the matter - or correct you on your blatant propaganda.

The point of this game is honesty over pathetic rhetorical appeals.

If you can't support your agenda with real facts, that is an indication that you're either wrong or incompetent and ignorant, and by all means should shut up because you're hurting your cause and wasting everyone's time - including your own.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
I think he is the Joker.
http://youtu.be/5C-Qmzuib5g

-Dogs can smell disease you know? And I think what I am smelling here is a very sick old man.
-The nose knows eh doggie?

"...usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

-It's a disease not a disgrace. It's why the term is 'pathological liar'.
gkam
2 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
Eikka, you do not understand, . . you have no credibility. Anybody can cut and paste from Wiki (see otto). Without experience in the field, you make terrible decisions, usually based on emotion or political prejudice.

Tell me what I got wrong. Give me your source of "knowledge" I get tired of nobodies attacking me.

Eikka
4.5 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
Gosh, Eikka, you looked me up, and found out I am real, so you try to make fun of the words on my web page? Is that the lowest you can go?


Quid pro quo. For ad-hominems, you get ad-hominems. Or to put it in yet another words, if you can't stand the heat, don't stick your fingers in it.

All I'm trying to do is point out that arguing by self-insertion is only going to get your person ridiculed, because who you are is irrelevant.

It proves no points but mine.


Which is?

Let's discuss how wind and PV are going to shut down all coal plants.


Let's. Do you aknowledge that the currrent renewable subsidy models are inefficient and counter-productive because they don't address the practical issues of these technologies, and that we lack the means to actually accomplish the task with these misplaced incentives and the lack of mature technology at our disposal?

Or would you rather subscribe to the hype and propaganda?
gkam
1.5 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
"Do you aknowledge that the currrent renewable subsidy models are inefficient and counter-productive because they don't address the practical issues of these technologies, and that we lack the means to actually accomplish the task with these misplaced incentives and the lack of mature technology at our disposal?"
------------------------------------------
No.

Do you acknowledge that this is not your professional field, and you rely on those you do not know for opinions?

We handled it very well years ago, when the sources were very small relative to baseload plants. But that was in the 1970's-80's,when the rest of you were partying with the Reagans. Now the technologies are sufficiently mature to employ them, and the need is here, as well.

You will lose this argument, Eikka. Look up electrical storage,. . . and weep.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
Gosh, Eikka, you looked me up, and found out I am real
Anybody can set up a website and stuff it with all sorts of bullshit.
Dogs can smell disease you know? And I think what I am smelling here is a very sick old man.
-Dogs are very credible sources of olfactory evidence.
Eikka
3.8 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
Eikka, you do not understand, . . you have no credibility.


That's exactly what I expect. What you still don't understand is, you don't either. Nobody has. In a discussion about facts, "I" stands for Irrelevant.

Anybody can cut and paste from Wiki (see otto). Without experience in the field, you make terrible decisions, usually based on emotion or political prejudice.


There is nothing special about personal experience. Your subjective opinion is just as skewed by the same factors, and your misplaced confidence in your own expertise simply makes it worse.

There's no mystical "art" to making good decisions that depends on information obtainable only by doing it yourself.

Eikka
3.8 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
No.


Then we have no discussion. You refuse to aknowledge problems, so there's nothing to talk about.


Do you acknowledge that this is not your professional field, and you rely on those you do not know for opinions?


Neither is it yours. You're a power quality consultant, and apparently not a very credible one at that. I wouldn't take you on your word alone even if it was - show me and I believe.

We handled it very well years ago


Again with the "we" that you weren't actually a part of. Stop trying to pull ad-hominems.

You will lose this argument, Eikka. Look up electrical storage,. . . and weep.


I am - weeping for the near absolute lack of it.

You will lose this argument


Pathetic rhetorics again.
Eikka
3.8 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
Anybody can set up a website and stuff it with all sorts of bullshit.


But not retroactively back in time to 2001. One can query the server for last modified date.

If you want to remain skeptical, you can still claim that the person has simply assumed someone else's identity, but that is just beating a dead horse. The whole point of the "identify youreself" shtick was to stop Gkam from constantly adding to the list of "credentials" he claims under the illusion that it matters.

gkam
1.5 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
Let's get back to the point of shutting down the polluting coal plants, and why. Eikka can look it up in Wiki, then report to otto.

Technology is proving my points, and making you folk look even sillier every day. Perhaps political prejudice is not a good criterion for making technical judgments.
Eikka
4.6 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
Technology is proving my points, and making you folk look even sillier every day.


Then how come, if wind and solar PV have reached grid parity in price in parts of the world, are there no commercial installations in operation or in planning that do not depend on government subsidies to operate? Why are we still paying them fixed prices above the market rates if they are capable of independent operation?

You have a very rosy picture of what technology actually exists and how it works.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
"There is nothing special about personal experience."
---------------------------------------------

Yup, that Kid actually said it. Ignorance in neon.
Eikka
4.5 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
"There is nothing special about personal experience."
---------------------------------------------

Yup, that Kid actually said it. Ignorance in neon.


If you can't communicate your personal experience to another person, in a way that is objectively verifiable by reason and evidence by the other person, so that they too could make informed decisions based on fact...

...what kind of consultant are you?

Again. Show me and I believe. Don't just beat your chest and preach your gospel.

If you can't explain why, then what are we to think about your "experience"? You could very well be talking out of your ass and asking everyone to simply take your word for it.
gkam
2 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
"You have a very rosy picture of what technology actually exists and how it works."
-----------------------------------------------

There will be problems, dislocations, changes in the power structure, battles over ownership and such, because transitions are not easy. But we will simply have to do it to save ourselves.

I do not post here for fun, I am serious about what we have done to our Life-Support System, the Environment, which makes our Oxygen, cleans our water, and provides us with food and appropriate living conditions.
gkam
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
Eikka, I posed a request in the carbon uptake thread for you.

I am requesting your opinion.
MR166
3 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2015
"Then how come, if wind and solar PV have reached grid parity in price in parts of the world, are there no commercial installations in operation or in planning that do not depend on government subsidies to operate? Why are we still paying them fixed prices above the market rates if they are capable of independent operation?

You have a very rosy picture of what technology actually exists and how it works."

That is the basis of most of controversy surrounding renewables. Add that to the fact that governments are using the AGW scam to force us to acquiesce to funding their crony capitalism friends and you can have a really lively conversation.
Eikka
4.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
carbon uptake thread


What article are you referring to?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
Just look up biochar as a soil conditioner, actually a soil maker, for the Amazon. It appears very long ago somebody used it to build sufficient soil for themselves. It still works.

The problem with rainforests is their nutrients are washed away. We have the Amazon because of the nutrients blown there from African deserts. If they can reduce the flushing, the forest can survive.

They need the forest to supply the water for the forest. Transpiration changes the local environment, allowing the trees to survive. If we lose the trees, we lose the rainfall that enables them to survive.
Eikka
4.8 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
Just look up biochar as a soil conditioner


Why don't you just repeat the question and save me the bother of slogging through miles of old articles?

Terra Preta is a pretty good idea though. Pyrolysis of biomass yields biochar, which is carbon negative when mixed with the topsoil. It comes with an energy penalty though, which reduces the availabiity and increases the cost of bio-energy.

gkam
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
"It comes with an energy penalty though, which reduces the availabiity and increases the cost of bio-energy."
---------------------------------------------

Not much, since the volatiles are already burned for heat, and the great increase in soil productivity is easily worth it. It burns the volatiles, and saves the carbon for soil-building, instead of oxidation to CO2.

"Pyrolysis of biomass yields biochar, which is carbon negative when mixed with the topsoil."

Yes, that is the point. The carbon can act as filter, as substrate for beneficial organisms which fix nitrogen, as a base for holding water, all the things we need for soil.
Eikka
4.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
Not much, since the volatiles are already burned for heat, and the great increase in soil productivity is easily worth it. It burns the volatiles, and saves the carbon for soil-building, instead of oxidation to CO2.


I have read up on wood gasifiers used in cars after WW2 and for what it's worth, a significant part of the energy is contained in the carbon matrix. "Generic" wood is 50% carbon w/w.

When wood or similiar cellulose-lignin material is pyrolyzed, about 20% of the energy of the resulting gas is contained in carbon monoxide, another 20% in hydrogen, and 60% in methane. If the temperature is lowered to produce more solid carbon, the portion of methane and CO drops proportionally and more volatile materials remain in the resulting charcoal in the form of tar oils.

Of course it's a choice between how much carbon you want to capture, which can be arbitrarily chosen to meet the economics.
gkam
2 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
Yup. The syngas released by partial combustion is a fuel of its own, but one has to be careful of the CO.
MR166
5 / 5 (1) Mar 20, 2015
Well there is no doubt in my mind that bio-fuels are a net negative unless the soil nutrients are preserved. That needs to be part of the equation. A short time back people were complaining that housing and it's demand for wood was destroying our forests. Housing lasts of 100s of years. I bet that you can burn 1 homes worth of wood in just one year in a wood stove. Imagine how much a wood to power plant uses.

US forests are being exported to England to power their "Green Energy" wood to power plants. Do you think that they are shipping the ashes back for redistribution????
Eikka
4.3 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
Do you think that they are shipping the ashes back for redistribution????


They will if you start paying money for it. Fly ash and other biomass processing residue is a waste management probem anyhow, so the nutrients are going to go somewhere. Whether it's in a landfill or back into the field depends on which yields better profit.

Which is a question the US exporters should have considered when deciding to sell wood in the first place. Of course they can use up their resources to the point of attrition, but that's hardly a sustainable business model.

The process chain of bioenergy is not really a problem.

What is a problem is the carrying capacity of the land. We're already using 40% of the earth's land surface to farming - the scale of expansion needed for biomass for energy will result in ecological disaster.
Eikka
5 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2015
Also, I thank you gkam for 1-voting my posts. Do you wish me to start returning you the favor, or would you rather prefer to keep to rational argumentation instead of childish appeals to the public?

I have followed a precept of never rating yours or anyone I disagree with, or hitting the report button, on the point of courtesy and the plain futility and self-deception of trying to get rid of dissenting opinion - but perhaps I shall reconsider, if it pleases you.

gkam
1.7 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
You got ones for stuff like this:

"The whole point of the "identify youreself" shtick was to stop Gkam from constantly adding to the list of "credentials" he claims under the illusion that it matters."

In fact, I identified myself months ago. I had to show you there really are folk who have already asked the questions made the assertions you think are original, and found the answers. But if the words do not fit those in Wiki, then, I must be lying.

It reminds me of a decade ago, when I decided to teach energy, integration of systems, and the problems with new technologies at the local community college. The Dean wanted to see where I had been taught it. I tried to tell him it was from experience, that I did Power Quality before the term was invented, that many of us were the first to teach it, ourselves. He could not understand that, only knowing stamped education credentials.

We all try to fit the world into our perceptions, I suppose, .
MR166
1 / 5 (2) Mar 20, 2015
Eikka don't get your panties all in a bunch about a 1 vote. To tell you the truth you know that you really have posted an unpleasant truth when you wind up with a 1 after 10 votes.

You just don't understand the rating system when posting to Progressives.
Captain Stumpy
4 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
governments are using the AGW scam
@Mr166
whereas i can relate to your reluctance to trust politicians, there is NO AGW SCAM, there is only SCIENCE
and since you've been posting here and we've talked about it, i've given you plenty of links proving that point

until you STOP following the political BS and stupidity, you will forever be ignorant of the ACTUAL science behind the climate change problems
see this for more info: http://www.ploson...tion=PDF

and take off the blinders because you are intelligent enough to follow the studies, so quit with the conspiracy crap

even YOU should be intelligent enough to see that a worldwide conspiracy is impossible considering the widespread cultural differences and sheer number of scientists from everywhere (and yet there is still a consensus re: cause)

you really need pick a POV: science or stupidity
you can't use BOTH
gkam
2 / 5 (4) Mar 20, 2015
I hate to disagree with you, Stumpy, but we bogymen really ARE under their beds.

And stepping on their lawns when they are not looking.
MR166
2.7 / 5 (3) Mar 20, 2015
"and yet there is still a consensus re: cause)"

And how is that 97% doing Capt. As long as agencies and interest groups keep feeding me propaganda and hyperbole I will continue to take this "science" with a grain of salt.

Why don't some of the 97 try debunking some of the wilder claims? Perhaps then I will see the science in a new light. Nope, all the climate and social catastrophe claims of the past 20 years are still sacrosanct.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
I will continue to take this "science" with a grain of salt
@mr
but no matter what happens, you will see ANY evidence as proof of conspiracy, as pointed out in THIS article: http://phys.org/n...firstCmt
BECAUSE you get your info from outside sources
debunking some of the wilder claims?
again, i point out that no matter WHAT they produce, it will only support your circular logic for conspiracy

read that article

what i am trying to say is simple:
you are CHOOSING to follow your circular logic and conspiracy instead of reading the scientific evidence

IF you would follow ONLY the science, you would think differently
WHY? because it points mostly in one direction

NOT because of conspiracy, but because a sh*t load of separate work from separate people in different cultures/countries all ended up with similar/same conclusions (aka consensus)

if you want the LEAST amount of BIAS
follow the SCIENCE
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
another point re: mr166
Nope, all the climate and social catastrophe claims of the past 20 years are still sacrosanct
this is wrong
SCIENCE only follows the evidence
period

the scientific method tries hard to remove BIAS from the studies, which is why it is the best method for knowledge and religion is still clinging to faith and faeries

so as long as you CHOOSE to get your info from secondary sources with biased interpretations, then you will always get misinformation
that also goes both ways
That is one reason i prefer the STUDIES to the blogs, sites etc...

also: scientists get personal points (kudos/karma/whatever you want to call it) when they can prove another scientist wrong... they COMPETE to prove each other wrong
https://www.youtu...bQIlu4mk

so when you have a general consensus on a scientific subject, you can bet it is based upon hard FACTS, observation, etc

forget about politics and religion & READ THE SCIENCE
MR166
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
Capt. why are the careers of dissenting scientists regularly threatened? Why are they treated like pariahs?
gkam
2.4 / 5 (5) Mar 20, 2015
Stumpy,

I see what you meant: A Sisyphian Challenge for an irrelevant and empty cause.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Mar 20, 2015
the careers of dissenting scientists regularly threatened? Why are they treated like pariahs?
@MR
from what i've read, the bulk of the "dissenting opinions" from what the deniers cling to re: climate science are about really CRAPPY science and stupid mistakes

read what i wrote again
scientists get personal points (kudos/karma/whatever you want to call it) when they can prove another scientist wrong... they COMPETE to prove each other wrong
and listen to how Dr. Tyson explains it here: https://www.youtu...bQIlu4mk

this has been the BULK of the cases i have seen to date (including that idiot moncton and his chinese paper - it was so full of BS and crap as well as bad math and wrong assumptions that it was torn apart almost immediately)

THAT is ALSO how science works
when you attach your NAME to science and studies, you live with the consequences
bad science = bad rep and no career
it's an INTERNAL control
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
lets talk about shutting down coal plants
Naw let's clean up your droppings first about fallout being the main cause of lung cancer, H2 explosions throwing reactor parts 120km, thorium energy being abandoned worldwide, complex systems naturally tending toward stability, HIGH ENERGY alpha not penetrating skin, only 1 scientist predicting the imminent ice age, etcetc ad infinitum.
I identified myself months ago
Naw you identified yourself when you first started posting shit like the above, as a blowhard who couldn't help making up outlandish facts and claiming that his alleged experience gave him the right to do so.
Why don't you just repeat the question
People with gkams disabilities like to get people to jump through hoops for him. It gives him the feeling of power he thinks he deserves.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
could not understand that, only knowing stamped education credentials
So gkam walks into the deans office looking for a job. The dean asks him what kind of education he had and gkam replies 'I don't need no stinking education!' and then proceeds to deliver the same spiel he does here, with great charm and enthusiasm which after all worked great with his captive seminar audiences, about how his very excellent experience has taught him that Fukushima explosions threw vessel parts 120km, how fallout is the main cause of lung cancer, how thorium reactor research is being abandoned worldwide, and how filthy fuels and EM smog is killing us all.

So after 20 minutes of unending sloganeering and similar such bullshit, the dean throws him out, and has much amusement to share later on at the faculty lunch.

Gkam walks out, resigned to the fact that the world is full of cretins who will never properly appreciate his shining greatness. His problems you see are everybody else's fault.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
Gkam - George - you don't belong here. Why don't you try MyLifeWasBetterThanYours.com? Lots of old men slinging all sorts of outrageous bullshit over there, and none of them seem to notice.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (4) Mar 21, 2015
Having actually been in the electric utility business as a Senior Engineer, I will waste no more time trying to straighten out otto, whose only point is personal pique (look it up, otto).

But the issue is Filthy Fuels, and our commitment to rid ourselves of them. We are doing so, to the dismay of the Deniers and haters of those who actually do things.

otto will go nuts if he reads my post in the 3D printing thread.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
look it up
I did.

"Senior Engineer - qualifications
Equivalent to graduation from a four-year college or university with major coursework in an Engineering curriculum or field related to the area of assignment and five years of professional engineering experience which must have included two years of project management or supervisory experience; or, an equivalent combination of education and experience sufficient to successfully perform the essential duties of the job as listed above."

-So perhaps you didn't need a degree to get the job. But...

"... persons hired into this class may be required to either possess at entry or obtain within specified time limits designated licenses, professional registration..."

-So the question that comes to mind george is uh how long did the position last?
gkam
1.4 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
otto-wiki thinks all those words have to match. Unable to understand the specific terminology, outsiders like otto-wiki have to look up words they do not understand, and then challenge you if they do not match.

Did you get to the part where I taught the National Power Quality Course to thousands of utility engineers? Hmmmm? Maybe not.

Shall I tell you how I solved technical problems, like the one which stopped the robots in Louisiana when lightning struck the transmission lines in Texas?

Really, otto-wiki, if you were not here. I'd have to make you up. I fear some folk will already suspect such a thing.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
No wait - it seems you would have needed some sort of equivalent degree, along with professional engineering experience (doing engineering design under the direct supervision of a PE), but no PE yourself initially.

So what rxactly was your professional experience? And how long did the job last? And why did the cretins decide you needed to go despite all the excellent work you did?
otto wiki
That wasn't wiki. Those are specific requirements for a city in California. Google it for a change.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (6) Mar 21, 2015
Shall I tell you how I solved technical problems, like the one which stopped the robots in Louisiana when lightning struck the transmission lines in Texas?
-And what exactly does that have to do with fallout being the main cause of lung cancer, H2 explosions throwing reactor parts 120km, thorium energy being abandoned worldwide, complex systems naturally tending toward stability, HIGH ENERGY alpha not penetrating skin, only 1 scientist predicting the imminent ice age, etcetc ad infinitum??

Sorry I don't see the connection.
gkam
1.4 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2015
Oh, my, . . those who have never been in the workforce apparently do not understand how it works. Degrees and buzz words are only used by ignorami and HR folk. The hiring is done when the man and the applicant sit down and talk turkey, with a full discussion of appropriate topics and concepts, and potential activities. Buzzwords are not important, understanding is important.

I got hired in all those cases because I could do the job.
gkam
1.8 / 5 (4) Mar 21, 2015
"Those are specific requirements for a city in California."
-----------------------------------

Otto-wiki, I was Senior Engineer in Technical Services for what was then the largest non-governmental power company on Earth.

Apparently you think "engineer" means only one thing. My technical work was nothing like being a civil engineer in a city. My god, are you really serious?

What did you do for a living, and why do you not understand how things work without wiki?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Mar 22, 2015
I got hired in all those cases because I could do the job
Well that's what they thought when they hired you. But in consideration of all the many jobs you have had, they must have let you go when they found out you couldn't.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Mar 22, 2015
Apparently you think "engineer" means only one thing. My technical work was nothing like being a civil engineer in a city. My god, are you really serious?
Well these terms are usually standardized across industries and venues to facilitate comparison but perhaps you are right. Let's check PG&E job descriptions...
http://getintoene...538/job/

-Hmmm. The above is one of many examples of "senior engineer" positions of different specialties. Of the ones I checked it seems that they typically require a degree, 8 years of professional experience, and a current PE in the state of CA.

So uh how long did you say you worked there again?
gkam
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 22, 2015
This thread is about filthy coal. We did not allow it in California. I think otto snorted too much of it.

I was with PG&E over seven years. How much utility experience do you have?

Telll us, otto, . . how much?

Your need to talk about me only shows us your pathetic mentality. This is a science thread. I brought up my experience to tell you folk without any what it was like to actually do something.

That something was to solve technical problems in the facilities of my customers, otto. When I left, they replaced me with a group. If you keep concentrating on me, you will lose. I am real.

Now, back to Filthy Fuels and why you love them.
gkam
3 / 5 (4) Mar 22, 2015
Oh, my, . . . Otto-wiki, that is for a nuclear engineer with nuclear construction experience. Apparently you are SO DENSE you think all engineering is alike. I have a hard time believing you ever got out of the house otto-wiki, if you think all engineering is the same.

I operated as an Electrical Engineer, otto-wiki, that's the kind you find in electric utilities. I am honest now, . . how could you be so dense you did not understand that? You might be surprised to find Hydraulic Engineers working for water utilities.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (4) Mar 23, 2015
Hey Gkam-bullshit-wiki

So I checked some senior level PG&E engg positions;

"Senior Consulting Electric Standards Engineer
Qualifications
Minimum:
• Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering
• Minimum of 13 years of experience in distribution engineering
• Registered Professional Engineer (PE License – Electrical)

"Senior Consulting Engineer – San Francisco
Qualifications
Minimum:
• Has a Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering
• Minimum of least 13 years of experience in electrical engineering
Desired:
• Masters degree in Electrical Engineering
• EIT/PE Certification, registered Electrical Engineer in California"

-Both are represented by Scientists and Engineers of California, a union.

-So you can see that these senior level positions both require a degree in electrical engg, something you don't have, as well as EIT experience. One requires a PE while one strongly recommends it, something you also don't have.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Mar 23, 2015
And I doubt that minimum requirements for senior engineers have changed that much over the years. And so I doubt that you were a senior engineer, electrical or otherwise. Like I say perhaps you only worked for one and thought that you could do his job blindfolded?

You're welcome to present evidence that these standards have changed, in response no doubt to getting burned too often by amateur bullshit artists over the years and subsequent liability issues etc.
I was with PG&E over seven years. How much utility experience do you have?
I already told you - enough to know that thorium reactor research for instance is not being abandoned worldwide. Enough to easily disprove all the other crap you post here. And that's all I really need isn't it?
gkam
1.7 / 5 (3) Mar 23, 2015
otto, . . . otto, . . snap out of it!

You've been in this hateful rut for months now, and have proven nothing but allowed me to tell you what you missed in life.

No more proof that some of us are real people, if you are not. You have shown complete ignorance in engineering, with no understanding at all how those fields and jobs work. The more I tell you, the more you get wrong. You have apparently spent your live in accounting or something else as enlightening and remote from the Real World.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 24, 2015
That's not an answer gkam thats an evasion. You continue to claim to be a senior engineer as justification for the stuff you post. I've offered you evidence that you were never a senior engineer because by your own admission you don't have the qualifications.

I will continue to repeat these allegations every time you post unless you can convincingly resolve them.
gkam
1 / 5 (2) Mar 24, 2015
Hilarious!
gkam
1 / 5 (2) Mar 24, 2015
Thanks for being here, otto. Without you, I would have no excuse to discuss my experiences. Did you hear how I saved a special and secret program? You can find my name on the site for the ARIA, a very classified project, which you will not understand. Go to the acknowledgments page for my name. You can get the cover story from the site, but not the real mission.

Where were you in 1966, when I was doing this at Edwards AFB?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Mar 24, 2015
Thanks for being here, otto. Without you, I would have no excuse to discuss my experiences. Did you hear how I saved a special and secret program? You can find my name on the site for the ARIA, a very classified project, which you will not understand. Go to the acknowledgments page for my name. You can get the cover story from the site, but not the real mission.

Where were you in 1966, when I was doing this at Edwards AFB?
So THIS is why you get to call yourself a SENIOR engineer? Again Im confused. WHY does this make you a SENIOR engineer when youre otherwise not qualified to be one?

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