Shutdown makes US 'less desirable' for science

NASA's Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution spacecraft with solar panels extended September 27, 2013 is checked by technicians
NASA's Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution spacecraft with solar panels extended September 27, 2013 is checked by technicians in preparation for a November 18 launch to Mars at the Kennedy Space Center, Florida.

The US government shutdown puts international science collaboration in peril and could have far-reaching impacts on innovation and research, a top science group said Wednesday.

"If the continues for a week or more, it is going to make the United States less desirable as an international research collaborator," said Joanne Carney, director of the American Association for the Advancement of Science Office of Government Relations.

"When funding is no longer reliable, many of our research partners may be unable to continue collaborating with us," she said in a statement.

"That could eventually have longer-term impacts on American innovation and competitiveness."

The majority of staff at US agencies are affected by the shutdown, with half of the Department of Health and Human Services and three quarters of the National Institutes of Health on unpaid leave.

The US space agency has gone almost completely dark, except for support for the International Space Station and its astronauts as well as for other satellite missions now underway.

"No new contracts or grants will be issued by NASA, however, and most pre-launch development work will end," said a statement issued by AAAS, which is the publisher of the journal Science.

The National Science Foundation will be alerting those who are expecting research grants that payments will not be made while the government is out of service.

However, "research that doesn't require federal employee intervention may proceed," said Matthew Hourihan, director of the AAAS R&D Budget and Policy Program.

Hundreds of cancer patients, including children, were expected to be denied entry into last-ditch clinical trials for treatment, a spokesman for the National Institutes of Health told AFP.

The largest research hospital in the world, the NIH Clinical Center is continuing to operate at 90 percent of normal patient load.

That means about 200 patients will be turned away from treatment at the Clinical Center each week the shutdown persists, including about 30 children, a spokesman told AFP.

About 10 of those children have cancer, he added.

The Food and Drug Administration has also warned it would "be unable to support the majority of its food safety, nutrition, and cosmetics activities."

Routine inspections, import monitoring and lab would have to cease until further notice, it said.

Most of the 13,814 employees of the US Department of Energy will be furloughed, leaving only a few hundred staff at the National Nuclear Security Administration.

"Most federal science programs and employees lost support as of midnight 1 October," said the AAAS statement.

A key exception has been the rollout of the healthcare reform law, which opened its online exchanges Tuesday so consumers could browse insurance options, though glitches were common.

The shutdown—the first in 17 years—came after Democrats refused to give in to Republican lawmakers' demands for a rollback of President Barack Obama's healthcare reform law, which Congress passed in 2010 and was subsequently upheld by the Supreme Court.


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Shutdown blocks care for kids with cancer (Update)

Journal information: Science

© 2013 AFP

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Oct 02, 2013
awesome news

Oct 02, 2013
"Most federal science programs and employees lost support as of midnight 1 October," said the AAAS statement.

Good riddance! Now stay away.

Oct 02, 2013

"

BASH: But if you can help one child with cancer, why wouldn't you do it?

REID: Why would we want to do that? I have 1100 people at Nellis Air Force Base sitting home. They have problems of their own".
http://www.breitb...m-cancer

Oct 02, 2013
Theory: the govt was about to go into default and so decided to use a convenient excuse to close up shop for a little while and save some money.

Im using the word 'theory' in the common usage sense and not in the scientific sense mind you.

Oct 02, 2013
What barakn you think I make this stuff up?

"US President Barack Obama has warned that Wall Street should be concerned that a conservative faction of Republicans is willing to allow the country to default on its debt.

The US government has partially closed after Congress failed to agree a budget and will run out of cash on 17 October unless its debt ceiling is raised."

I am only the messenger of many uncomfortable things.

Oct 02, 2013
"REID: Why would we want to do that? I have 1100 people at Nellis Air Force Base sitting home. They have problems of their own". - RyggTard quoting Harry Reid.

Reid is correct of course. The U.S. government can not be held hostage by the needs of one child.

It is disgusting that Republicans would use dying child to try to advance their political goals.

If they really wanted to assist that child, as they claim they do... The Republican party would pay for his cancer treatment themselves rather demanding that government do it.


Oct 02, 2013
"Good riddance! Now stay away." - cantdrivetoostupid

The enemies of America have no greater friend than the tea-Bagger treason party.


Oct 02, 2013
We are so touched that Ryggy and friends at Breitbart have now come around to supporting government funding of scientific research - otherwise known as SOCIALISM - by the person formerly known as R2.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals' who refuse to be tolerant of others.

Oct 02, 2013
Republicans hate science as much as they love to destroy their own nation.


Oct 02, 2013
"Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals'" - RyggTard

And you were a failure at doing so.

How sad for you.

Oct 02, 2013
The tea party wants America to be like north Korea. I can't wait to see you bastards defeated.

Oct 02, 2013
"Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'liberals' who refuse to be tolerant of others"

Yeah - no problem promoting socialism when it suits your purpose. You are the frickin hypocrite.


Really,

Science is why we enjoy being a first world nation. People have gone insane and don't realize that we enjoy the fruits of science.

Oct 03, 2013
Tea Party Republicans and their supporters in Congress should be charged with treason for holding the Nation hostage.

The Affordable Care Act is the law. Get over it.


Oct 03, 2013
"Tea Party Republicans and their supporters in Congress should be charged with treason for holding the Nation hostage." - UbVonTard

For once UbVonTard is telling the truth. Very uncommon for him.

Oct 03, 2013
"Science is why we enjoy being a first world nation. " - matthewwa25

Not according to the Republicans, Tea-Publicans and Libertarians and Randites.

In their view, America is at it's greatest when the greatest number of Americans are corporate wage slaves.

Apparently having 3 jobs in order to be able to raise a family is the American Dream realized.


Oct 03, 2013
"The tea party wants America to be like north Korea." - mattewwa25

Not quite. The Republican goal is a Fascist state where the people are as free as the corporations will permit, and powerless to change their plight.

Given that American Republicans and American Corporations tried to make it illegal for people to collect rain water for their own consumption, no one with an ounce of brains thinks that corporations will provide any freedom at all.

RyggTard considers that perfection.


Oct 03, 2013
I'm wondering...is there any shutdown of the parts that cost the most money (military actions and military spending in general)? Couldn't find anything about that from the news.

Oct 03, 2013
Obviously those responsible except for the Executive Wing should be Incarcerated IMMEDIATELY.

Oct 03, 2013
Low Information Garbage has spread out to science comment section too!
A Cell Phone used by even Bowl carrying Beggars on the streets in poor countries IS AN EXAMPLE OF Triumph of SciTech!

Oct 03, 2013
The NBC News article says Investors around the world will not lend trillions of dollars to the United States any more (Come Oct 17th).
U.S will be left with an Empty Begging Bowl Soon.
Google News Search for Stock market shaken by shutdown — but debt default would be much worse.
http://usnews.nbc...rse?lite

Oct 03, 2013
I'm wondering...is there any shutdown of the parts that cost the most money (military actions and military spending in general)? Couldn't find anything about that from the news.
Obviously that would not be prudent as we are at the moment in a war to prevent the emergence of an Islamist empire. We don't want them blowing up OUR malls. Do you want them blowing up YOUR malls?

Perhaps if rich euro nations would contribute more to this endeavor we could afford to cut back a little.

Oct 03, 2013
We don't want them blowing up OUR malls

Ah yes. Killing others who want to kill americans (because americans started meddling in their lives, organised coups, propped up dictators, and were/are taking resources without proper compensation)...is so much more important than giving your OWN children cancer care.
Thanks for reminding me. I keep forgetting that the ground state of US mentality is 'stark-raving-mad'.

Oct 03, 2013
The NBC News article says Investors around the world will not lend trillions of dollars to the United States any more


Will investors trust China, or Russia or Switzerland or Japan or Germany or .... with their cash?

Oct 03, 2013
"While the NSF spends most of its funds well, we have recently seen far too many questionable grants, especially in the social, behavioral and economic sciences. Research on subjects such as animal photos in National Geographic may sound interesting, but how does the federal government justify spending over $220,000 on such an endeavor? Additional examples of questionable NSF research grants include topics such as:"
"With limited funding, we must prioritize. Congress is right to ask why NSF chooses to fund research on Mayan architecture over projects that could help our wounded warriors or save lives."
http://www.usatod...2896333/

Oct 03, 2013
Honestly, as much as I dislike republicans, I do feel like they are the only thing stopping the government from getting out of control. Of course, them trying to stop the government from going out of control, seems to cause the government to get out of control. Its getting crazy, the American public is losing trust in our gov't more and more, and if things don't stabilize, we will have some sort of revolution or civil war in the next 20 years or so. I think many people are happy, but if the line is crossed, it will get ugly.

The sad thing is, we can't trust the free market, because companies will meet in secret and fix prices, suppress cures for diseases, etc. You can't trust the government to regulate these things, because of the lobbyists and campaign contributions, etc. Pretty much, whoever has the power will abuse it, and the public is left paying the price.

Oct 03, 2013
we can't trust the free market, because companies will meet in secret and fix prices, suppress cures for diseases,


In what truly free market as this occurred?
OPEC meets to try and fix the price of oil. They fail. And they fail because their members and their competitors violate the agreement. And this happens all the time, unless there is some govt regulations enabling the collusion.

Oct 03, 2013
I keep forgetting that the ground state of US mentality is 'stark-raving-mad'
Your cartoon dogma again. These cultures are the end result of 1000s of years of conquest through propagation. They always produce more than they can feed. They are always unhappy except right after the last war or pogrom. And this culture of theirs always tells them their unhappiness is somebody elses fault.

I have proven this to you time and again in the past. We can both see it every day in riots and wars throughout the middle east, in religionists killing one another in most third world countries, in floods of refugees from these lands which is only increasing.
cont>

Oct 03, 2013
We have allies to protect. They are islands of western stability amidst roiling seas of religion-driven overpopulation. They are populated by people who accept the idea of living within their means. If they fall we fall. If we dont fight to protect them we will be fighting in our own streets.

These terminator cultures will not stop by themselves. They have evolved to be the most efficient at outgrowing and overrunning their neighbors. Pops grow, pressure builds, terrorism ensues, revolution and war follow. ALWAYS.

Look to your own past. Only a few gens ago, religions drove overgrowth in europe to the extent that only 2 wars of unremitting slaughter could provide any relief. But the cultures which caused them were finally broken. People began to look to themselves rather than god to secure their futures.

Its happening again, right before our eyes. You keep wishing and dreaming of wonderland while the adults take the necessary steps to preserve what we have.

Oct 03, 2013
I know you have relatively little regard for facts in this case but Ill post some anyway from this weeks news:

"Italy: More than 100 killed in migrant boat shipwreck
It was one of the deadliest accidents in the perilous crossing thousands make each year, seeking a new life in the prosperous European Union. Smugglers charge thousands of dollars a head for the journey aboard overcrowded, barely seaworthy boats that lack life vests"

"Myanmar Muslim families hide in forests after deadly clashes
...more than 700 rioters, some swinging swords, took to the streets... A 94-year-old Muslim woman died from stab wounds in the clashes that followed, the officer said, adding that between 70 and 80 houses were set on fire. Another officer, however, said only 19 homes were burned"

More than 115,000 people have died in Syria's ongoing civil war, a monitoring group said Tuesday.... more than 41,000 civilians... DEAD.

Oct 03, 2013
Republicans hate science as much as they love to destroy their own nation.



actually, we mostly just hate you and all your vast collection of sockpuppets

Oct 03, 2013
More?

"Greece Holds Golden Dawn Leader
The party first entered parliament after elections in June 2012... protracted economic crisis and soaring unemployment... third-most popular party in the country..." (sound familiar?)

"One of the few shops that Kenyan soldiers didn't loot during last month's siege by terrorists of a Nairobi shopping mall was a local Bata shoe store..." (probably just trying to feed their families)

"Burmese President Thein Sein is visiting Rakhine state amid a fresh outbreak of sectarian violence between Buddhists and Muslims."

"Despite the ban, [Muslim] Brotherhood supporters continue to take to the streets to protest"

"Critics have called Mr Singh's government one of the most corrupt in India's history following incidents of bribery and other scandals that have prompted the resignation of several cabinet ministers." (corruption is endemic with overpop)

"STOUFFVILLE, Ontario ...six severed cat heads were found in residential locations north of Toronto."

Oct 03, 2013
"Will investors trust China, or Russia or Switzerland" - RyggTard

Will they trust the Libertarian who was running the Silk Road and who paid $50,000 to have one of his employees murdered?

The Libertarian was a great fan and student of the Von Mises Institute.


Oct 04, 2013
"actually, we mostly just hate you and all your vast collection of sockpuppets" - VendiTard

So your claim is that the hate filled comments you have directed toward evolutionary biologists, LHC physicists, Climate Scientists, Union members, Union supporters, and the dozens of other groups was actually love?

Republicans are pure hate. Everyone knows that.


Oct 04, 2013
'In what truly free market as this occurred?" - RyggTard

What market can be truly free without the freedom to employ and purchase the sexual services of children?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to own slaves?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to contract murders and beatings?

What market can be truly free and moral?

Clearly... None...


Oct 04, 2013
Republicans hate science as much as they love to destroy their own nation.


Yea, and Republicans eat puppies too.

The tea party wants America to be like north Korea. I can't wait to see you bastards defeated.


Moron. It is those who don't want a legitimate segment of the political spectrum to exercise their representative rights who want the USA to be like NK.
You two dingbats should stop watching so many cartoons.

Tea Party Republicans and their supporters in Congress should be charged with treason for holding the Nation hostage.
The Affordable Care Act is the law. Get over it.


More mindlessness. The GOP are representatives of the American people. They are tasked with effecting congressional funding decisions with their conservative pov. This is lawful and legitimate as much as liberals voted into office. Their say in the matter EXISTS, get over it.

Most Americans do NOT want ObamaCare, yet Obama does not want to negotiate funding at all.

Oct 04, 2013
The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...

Oct 04, 2013
Theory: the govt was about to go into default and so decided to use a convenient excuse to close up shop for a little while and save some money.

Im using the word 'theory' in the common usage sense and not in the scientific sense mind you.


Thats good because you're wrong. It's actually more expensive to shut down the government than keep it open. Counterintuitive? Yes, but we are talking about the government which does not have to abide by rationality.

The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...


Only because you have bought into cartoonish caricatures of what a American conservative is. This is why liberals are such bed-wetters, they're so susceptible to propaganda given their naiveté.

When should the USA stop increasing its debt mindlessly, if not now? Nearly $16 trillion and the liberals are still spending....

Oct 04, 2013
,... it is clear that gov is fiscally incompetent, yet the political left want the government to control another 6th of the economy. That is not rational.

A scientifically minded person would recognize evolutionary principals in 'free' market capitalism and wouldn't work counter to those natural forces, and would ensure that the budget is mathematically balanced, and that obsolete entities like the USPS is closed, .... yet it is conservatives who are "anti-science" according to the leftist propaganda machine and cartoonish caricatures spoon feed liberal bed wetters :).

Oct 04, 2013
The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...

The GOP is not representing their voters so voters demanded they begin to do so in 2010. As a result many 'liberal' republicans are losing and running scared from those who elected them to office.
"The shift comes as grassroots activists have re-framed the GOP's old "pro-business" stance into a "pro-free markets" positioning that eschews the kinds of corporate welfare and taxpayer-funded crony capitalism found in big government giveaways to industries that make hefty political contributions.

President Obama and Democrats have seized on the shift and have increased their already strong courting of corporate executives. On Wednesday, Obama held White House meetings with 14 top CEOs from some of America's biggest financial firms. "
http://www.breitb...Business
Democrats (fascists), party of crony capitalists.

Oct 04, 2013
"Yea, and Republicans eat puppies too." - NumenTard

Not that I have heard. But I have heard repeated calls from Republicans for the imposition of economic policies that would cause the U.S. to enter into a decades long, grand economic depression.

Republicans have been quite open in their plans to destroy the national economy through their "Starve the beast" program of national economic sabotage.

"We need to manufacture an (economic) crisis in order to assure that there is no alternative to a smaller government." - Jeb Bush - Impress magazine 1995

Oct 04, 2013
"The GOP is not representing their voters so voters demanded they begin to do so in 2010. As a result many 'liberal' republicans are losing and running scared from those who elected them to office." - RyggTard

This is true, and the result of the T-Party Treason was the mass defeat of the T-Party in the last election.

Republicans were soundly rejected by the American Public because of the idiocy of the T-Party ideology.

Your sick, moronic, ideology, TardieBoy.

Oct 04, 2013
"On Wednesday, Obama held White House meetings with 14 top CEOs from some of America's biggest financial firms." - RyggTard

The horror..... The horror.....

How dare the president talk with industry leaders. How dare he.


Oct 04, 2013
" it is clear that gov is fiscally incompetent," - Numentard

No. It is clear that Republicans are fiscally incompetent.

"A scientifically minded person would recognize evolutionary principals in 'free' market capitalism" - NumenTard

What market can be truly free without the freedom to employ and purchase the sexual services of children?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to own slaves?

What market can be truly free without the freedom to contract murders and beatings?

What market can be truly free and moral?

Clearly... None...


Oct 04, 2013
more expensive to shut down the govt
While I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with my comment I think some sense can be made of it. First off it depends on how long the shutdown lasts. And it depends on how creative admins get in which agencies they are shutting down and what services they are interrupting. It is a complex issue and I dont think its near as simplistic as you are inferring.

FEMA for instance is billions in the red. Do they need to operate continuously? What better way to demonstrate that they don't, than to shut them down for awhile and see what happens?

Both sides of the aisle can benefit by demonstrations of this nature. I can imagine that agencies all over are scrambling right now to show how vital it is that they remain in operation.

This is going on right now in detroit. Who didn't survive the Clinton/Gingrich shutdown? The Clinton admin erased the debt as I recall. Perhaps this is how it is done.

Oct 04, 2013
"On Wednesday, Obama held White House meetings with 14 top CEOs from some of America's biggest financial firms." - RyggTard

The horror..... The horror.....

How dare the president talk with industry leaders. How dare he.

I thought that's what made ryggie's life worth living: The prospect of more kleptocracies being cemented in law. Wall Street began as a human stock market selling slaves for plantations. Nothing new, really

Oct 04, 2013
Did I say erased? I meant to say 'reduced'... In clintons own words:

"They believe those in the Republican Party, believe that they've talked a good game about balancing the budget, but the debt was quadrupled in the 12 years before I became president, and then we paid down the debt for four years, paid down $600 billion on the national debt, and then my budget was abandoned and they doubled the debt again."

-A man of impeccable character as I recall, who revitalized Mena AR by increasing commerce and the flow of goods considerably.

Oct 04, 2013
Well that would make Clinton a fiscal conservative,... which was convenient for him because the republicans swept into congressional control then.

You see there are liberal republicans and conservative democrats. I generally refer to 'conservatives' and 'liberals' for that reason.

"A scientifically minded person would recognize evolutionary principals in 'free' market capitalism" - Noumenon


What market can be truly free without the freedom to employ and purchase the sexual services of children?


Potato salad argument.

Oct 04, 2013
"Well that would make Clinton a fiscal conservative,..." NumenTard

Well then, I must be a fiscal conservative myself. along with every other lLiberal I know.

Oct 04, 2013
"Well that would make Clinton a fiscal conservative,..." NumenTard

Well then, I must be a fiscal conservative myself. along with every other lLiberal I know.
See I told you. You and ryggy are 2 sides of the same coin. The same anarchist bitcoin.

You both can have all the freedom you want when the machines take over.

Oct 04, 2013
"You both can have all the freedom you want when the machines take over." - Otto

I know those robots. Nice people. Unlike RyggTard, they think logically, and abhor liars.

They will leave TardieBoy with a perpetually full diaper.

Oct 04, 2013
The GOP are representatives of the American people

...now there's a scary thought...

Yes, it is:

"Lee: It was an all-out attack against Ted Cruz and me. It was unflattering, it was unfair, it was demeaning. It was demeaning to Senator Ted Cruz and to me, but more than anything it was demeaning to those who engaged in the attack."
"Ted Cruz and I spoke after the meeting and we both concluded we would both be fine with the American people hearing and seeing exactly what we said in that meeting. But we're pretty sure that most of our colleagues would be very uncomfortable, and downright embarrassed if their constituents saw the way they were behaving."
http://www.breitb...instCruz

Cruz and Lee, and a few others, are the only politicians working for their constituents.

Oct 04, 2013
@R2 say that; "Democrats (fascists), party of crony capitalists."

You must not know that UP is NOT DOWN and RIGHT is NOT LEFT and FASCIST is NOT DEMOCRAT. That is so typical of you fascist republican RINOs (your teaparty after-all, not republican) so your a RINO fascist along with the rest of the street sweepings that hate the USA.
Treasonous fascist like yourself will always lie or be contrary to what ever is the truth that you can't handle.

So the point must be, that you should go to walmart, buy lots of koch industry stuff and get out of out way why we try to do something good for a change.

Oct 04, 2013
"Lee: It was an all-out attack against Ted Cruz and me. It was unflattering, it was unfair, it was demeaning. It was demeaning to Senator Ted Cruz and to me, but more than anything it was demeaning to those who engaged in the attack." - RyggTard

"Cruz was completely unapologetic about the ads that he is featured in on the Senate Conservatives Fund website that attack other Republicans. He sees himself as the only truly pure Republican. His colleagues are furious. He has no successful strategy but has managed to generate grass roots support for his position," one senior Republican source at Wednesday's meeting told CNN Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger.

Ted Cruz gets pushback during closed-door meeting

http://politicalt...-page-1/

Oct 04, 2013
"Cruz and Lee, and a few others, are the only politicians working for their constituents." - RyggTard

By pushing the American Economy down the toilet.

Cruz is working for his constituents, but his constituents are, like RyggTard, the enemies of America.

Oct 04, 2013
Democrats (fascists), party of crony capitalists."

Soros, Buffet , ...
"Duke Energy and its CEO have been unequivocal supporters of the Obama administration's war on affordable energy. Rogers and Duke lobbied heavily for regulations, Cap and Trade, and "green" energy grants."
Forbes
"

Liberals typically ding Cuccinelli as too socially conservative, but the Democratic Governors Association today had a different knock on him: "The people of Virginia need a governor who will be business-friendly and focused on creating jobs and growing the economy…" they wrote.

This has been a theme throughout Cuccinelli's career: significant portions of the business lobby have turned against him, not because he's too pro-life, but because of his economic conservatism."
http://reason.com...ism-demo


Oct 04, 2013
Cuccinelli's opponent in VA,

"McAuliffe, who helped Bill Clinton raise campaign cash by selling $100,000 sleepovers at the White House, was building a car company based on $500,000 "investments" from foreigners seeking to live in the United States. ""
"In China, the children and grandchildren of Communist China's revolutionary leaders, called "princelings," used their family and political connections to become the country's new robber barons and use political force to shut down critics. In America, political princelings such as McAuliffe are trying to copy that strategy."
http://www.humane...auliffe/

Oct 04, 2013
"People are a little stunned that so much of the Wall Street corporate and financials sectors have rolled over so easily for the Obama administration, witness the dutiful manner in which all the major communications companies turned over their cellphone data without a whimper."
"Let's just cut to the chase and say that what we are seeing today is fascism, writ large, and not cronyism between government and the Big Business private sector. These corporations are not sucking up to the government (well, not entirely) so much as they all have a gun to their heads. And this is what all businesses and citizens will do once they have a gun to their heads as well."
"cronyism is the result of the private sector trying to create sweetheart relationships in government in order to get financial favors, usually contract preferences. Fascism is just the opposite, when it is the state with the come-hither glances and bedroom eyes, for an entirely different purpose."
Cronyism begets fascism.

Oct 04, 2013
"This has been a theme throughout Cuccinelli's career: significant portions of the business lobby have turned against him, not because he's too pro-life, but because of his economic conservatism." - RyggTard

Yup, even American Capitalists can't stomach Bible Thumping, extremist Conservative Traitors.

Oct 04, 2013
"witness the dutiful manner in which all the major communications companies turned over their cellphone data without a whimper." - RyggTard

I'm not sure how RyggTard expects them to wimper when the Bush Administration forced them under secret court order to not reveal anything about their legal obligation to be complicit with NSA spying.

RyggTard just ain't the brightest match in the box.

Oct 04, 2013
"Let's just cut to the chase and say that what we are seeing today is fascism, writ large, and not cronyism between government and the Big Business private sector." - RyggTard

Reagan's crusade against free speech goes all the way back to his days as governor of California. After the protests at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1968 further protests sprang up on campuses across the country. Berkeley became a hotbed of student activity. One of the first things governor Reagan wished to curtail was the free speech of these student radicals and the Black Panthers whose national Headquarters happened to be near Berkeley.

Like his spiritual father McCarthy, Reagan quickly exaggerated the threat the campus radicals posed to society in an attempt to shut them up. Speaking of the radicals Reagan said, "Preservation of free speech does not justify letting beatniks and advocates of sexual orgies, drug usage, and 'filthy' speech disrupt the academic community."

CONT

Oct 04, 2013
His next move was to appoint Edwin Meese III, then a hard-line anti-student county prosecutor as his chief of staff. Together the anti-free speech duo of Reagan and Meese waged war against campus radicals and their right to speak out.

http://rushsucks....eech.htm

Oct 04, 2013
Ronald Reagan must be the nicest president who ever destroyed a union, tried to cut school lunch milk rations from six to four ounces, and compelled families in need of public help to first dispose of household goods in excess of $1,000...1f there is an authoritarian regime in the American future, Ronald Reagan is tailored to the image of a friendly fascist. - Robert Lekachman

The Truth About Republicans by George Carlin

http://www.youtub...yz4#t=26

All Republicans are liars.

http://www.youtub...MzMjXLJs

Oct 05, 2013
Vendi says,
The Truth About Republicans by George Carlin

http://www.youtub...yz4#t=26

All Republicans are liars.

http://www.youtub...MzMjXLJs



Isn't that the truth.

Oct 05, 2013
Hate, lies, and racism make a good republican.

Oct 05, 2013
@Jimee, Howhot, VendicarE, kocknivick

That you equate conservatives with Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Haters, is emblematic of your own ignorance and desire to use false caricatures as a teddy-bear in soothing that ignorance. It's equivalent to adult thumb sucking. You see, you don't understand conservatives, so you manufacture a caricature, specifically designed according to your specifications, for the soul purpose of ensuring that even YOU can't lose to, in debate. In fact, the sheer over-the-top nature of your invention, is indicative of your overcompensation and low standards for which you hold yourself to.

What I would recommend in the future is to assume conservatives are intelligent and may have a rational point of view, and only then debate with humility and trepidation. This requires that you be honest with yourself first, for otherwise you won't have a chance of being honest with others.

Oct 05, 2013
Hate, lies, and racism make a good republican.
Self-hatred, self-deception, and misanthropy make a typical liberal. Probably not but I thought I would offer a similar bigoted response to yours.

Oct 05, 2013
@djr, Actually I agree with your post for the most part. I was refering above to the ad hominem arguments, and exagerated misrepresentations of an ideology.

While its true that one can let their ideology blind them to realities to the contrary, it is still inportant to have base principals that guide you.

I'm a libartarian because I recognize natural forces at play in 'free' market capitalism which are not only intrinsic to human egoistic nature but is the best mechanism for human progress.

Oct 05, 2013
,... and government can only work counter to these natural forces, can only weaken people by making them dependent, and facilitates the division of people between the 'victims' and the 'guilty'.

But I also see the excesses that develop if markets are not monitored and regulated.


The problem is, who defines "excesses". We elect people to office who make laws already, so why this additional subjective qualification? The existing world economy was not planned ahead of time. It wasn't regulated into existence. It is a living, breathing thing on its own.

Oct 05, 2013
,... who's strength is not contingent upon government, but who's weakness usually is.

think it is a lazy thinking problem - that is engaged in by all sides. It is easy to label yourself, and others. Then you don't have to deal with those pesky facts - you can just argue from the chosen perspective


This is not very different from what I said above. Laziness in not understanding the supposed oppositions point of view. It's easier to construct a cartoon character or accept one ready made through propaganda.

Oct 05, 2013
My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive.

Free markets ARE regulated by competition and customers.
That you equate conservatives with Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Haters, is emblematic of your own ignorance and desire to use false caricatures as a teddy-bear in soothing that ignorance.


Why did FDR hijack the term 'liberal' to describe his version of socialism? Classical liberals, REAL liberals like Locke, Smith, Bastiat, Mises, Hayek and many others were quite intelligent and understood the nature of men and the need for a limited govt to protect individual rights, which the 'liberal'/'progressive'/socialists want to take away to control the individual.
Science is about facts - and yet so many make it about ideology./q]
So use facts back up your assertions about free markets. In Britain, it was the govt that sent orphans out to work in mills. Children with parents sent their children to school.

Oct 06, 2013
My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive.

Free markets ARE regulated by competition and customers.
Adam Smith advocated a FREE MARKET, not a market free of REGULATION. A properly regulated market will be more free, not less. Regulation is a prerequisite for market freedom.

For example public banks are much more efficient than private banks. The latter are allowed to lose their money anywhere speculative like a movie star, causing global depressions

Oct 06, 2013
It is called a free market because the rich and the corporations are free to exploit the vulnerable, and they will always do so. The only purpose of a well designed regulatory system is that this exploitation, driven by greed (and simple common sense since the vulnerable are easy to exploit) is not allowed to flourish. Unfortunately we see the rich and the corporations also exploiting the regulatory system, so it is a constant battle.

Oct 06, 2013
Perhaps free markets are better [...] than centralized systems, but there are also serious problems that can come up when you have unbridled markets - ...[....]...Science is about facts - and yet so many make it about ideology.


There are serious problems that can come up when you have unbridled freedom,... is another way of stating that. There is a cost to freedom, yes, but the answer is not unbridled regulation.

Science is about understanding core mechanisms (of natural law), and ideology is also about core principals. There are endless social statistical facts, scientifically accurate in the data mining process, for which a liberal-progressive could "justify" implementing unbridled regulation by social engineering.

The liberal-progressive is not scientifically minded though, ... because science analyses facts 'disinterestedly' and does not treat them as something to be "fixed", nor does it seek to work counter to natural forces intrinsic to human nature.

Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.

Oct 06, 2013
Noumenon: "so why this additional subjective qualification?"

What qualification are you referring to? My point is that when left totally unregulated - markets can be very destructive. The owners of the coal mines in Britain were happy to send young children down the mines, often to meet an early death. It took regulation to introduce health and safety codes. The mine owners would not have done it voluntarily - they were happy to see workers as disposable.


It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control, except by the willingness of the workers to subject themselves to those conditions and risk.

Likewise, the oil companies have no power to cause AGW except only by the willingness of both deniers and believers, to create a market demand for that energy source.

No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior.

Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Did your Somalian passport arrive?

Oct 06, 2013
free markets are regulated by competition and customers
Perhaps, if free markets were ever possible, but they're not. Markets are run by clever businessmen who hire clever promoters to sell inferior goods to uninformed customers who have limited choices and little time to shop around.

These businessmen are more intelligent and educated than their typical customer. They know it is far easier to collude with their counterparts than to try to out-compete them. They will ALWAYS seek to cut corners and cheat because the one who does not, loses.

And losing is not an option for most who have families to feed. When pops swell and inflation ensues, competition intensifies and corruption becomes inevitable.

Markets abhor com

Oct 06, 2013
It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control, except by the willingness of the workers to subject themselves to those conditions and risk.

Likewise, the oil companies have no power to cause AGW except only by the willingness of both deniers and believers, to create a market demand for that energy source.

No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior.
Oh yes you evoke the libertarian theme of "blame the worker" rather than the regulate the plutocratic fat cat thriving on his crimes. By your standard all mafia kingpins are blameless

Oct 06, 2013
Markets abhor competition. Tribes ABHOR competition and will always try to eliminate them. And tribal law dictates that they do this by any means possible. Alls fair in love and war and the marketplace.

Oct 06, 2013
Let the poor die. [...]. It is their own fault. Not your responsibility. You only have responsibility to your own club. Fuck the poor people - right Ryggy


Ones moral character can be judged only on their personal charity, the giving away of their own money, ...... not in simply advocating the giving away of other peoples money. Charity requires helping voluntarily and personally by definition, and not by force or coercion. For this reason your moral political objection is not valid and irrelevent to the discussion.

There has to be consequences for not working hard, not competing, not improving one self, not offering value,... for being poor. We have evolved to feel pain for a reason, as a survival mechanism. If the liberals keep feeding you pain killer, soon you will be weakened to the point of dependency.

In some poor nations the act of institutionalized global aide has in effect domesticated the people, and made them into pets. The same occurs in welfare systems.

Oct 06, 2013
dj, you said your fellow Brits sent children into coal mines to die.
Back it up.

Oct 06, 2013
"Author Robert Hessen is one observer who has taken note of this historiographical mischief and has urged others to acknowledge the error. The parish apprentice children, he writes, "were sent into virtual slavery by a government body; they were deserted or orphaned pauper children who were legally under the custody of the poor-law officials in the parish, and who were bound by these officials into long terms of unpaid apprenticeship in return for bare subsistence." (5) Indeed, Hessen points out, the first Act in Britain which applied to factory children was passed to protect these very parish apprentices, not "free labour" children."
http://www.mackinac.org/3879

Oct 06, 2013
"It remains that capitalism is not a system of compulsion. The lack of physical force, in fact, is what distinguishes it from pre-capitalist, feudal times. When feudalism reigned, men, women, and children were indeed "sold" at auction, forced to work long hours at arduous manual labor, and compelled to toil under whatever conditions and for whatever compensation pleased their masters. This was the system of serfdom, and the deplorable system of parish apprenticeship was a remnant of Britain's feudal past."
"The emergence of capitalism was sparked by a desire of Englishmen to rid themselves of coercive economic arrangements. The free laborer increasingly supplanted the serf as capitalism blossomed. It is a gross and most unfortunate distortion of history for anyone to contend that capitalism or its industrialization was to blame for the agony of the apprentice children."
http://www.mackinac.org/3879
Of course it is a distortion socialists need to promote.

Oct 06, 2013
"So it is that child labor was relieved of its worst attributes not by legislative fiat, but by the progressive march of an ever more productive, capitalist system. Child labor was virtually eliminated when, for the first time in history, the productivity of parents in free labor markets rose to the point that it was no longer economically necessary for children to work in order to survive. The emancipators and benefactors of children were not legislators or factory inspectors, but factory owners and financiers. Their efforts and investments in machinery led to a rise in real wages, to a growing abundance of goods at lower prices, and to an incomparable improvement in the general standard of living."
"The popular critique of child labor in industrial Britain is unwarranted, misdirected propaganda. The Hammonds and others should have focused on the activities of government, not capitalists, as the source of the children's plight. "
mackinac.org/3879
Brits are subjects, not citizen

Oct 06, 2013
Even Norway is turning away from socialism:
"Making the transition from a full-scale welfare state to a system which consistently rewards work more than public handouts will be a difficult one for Norway. Hopefully, the newly elected government will draw inspiration from the neighbor to the east."
"The difference between the more work-fare oriented Sweden and the more welfare oriented Norway are also seen in the number of hours worked. Swedes on average spend 14 percent more hours working than their neighbors to the west. (In fact, as my brother has shown, in terms of hours worked per working age adult, Sweden has recently even outpaced the US). Particularly young Norwegians are considered to have a notoriously weak working ethic, while Swedish workers are highly praised in Norway. "
" Norway has much to gain in bringing in more emphasis on individual responsibility and free markets in the traditional Social Democratic system."
http://www.newgeo...-breaks-

Oct 06, 2013
Ryggy and his pundits want us to believe that emancipation is some steady state phenomenon. Labor is a commodity like any other. When supply exceeds demand then people again are forced to suffer.

And it is NOT the marketplace which limits the potential for abuse as it has no natural means with which to do so; but instead a strong central govt, beholden to the will of the people, which can prevent corruption and abuse.

Oct 06, 2013
No industry has caused more death than government control of human behavior.


A very strange statement indeed. How do you measure these issues? I would suspect that religion has caused more death - but I really don't know how you would measure such numbers.


Thankfully history has recorded what happens when society is "planned" by government.

It would seem to me that you are arguing for a total absence of all regulations. Is that accurate?


Not in the present context, no. For example, if the government coerces conditions where lending standards are lowered, (so the poor can buy homes without proving their ability to save in putting 20% down), thus opening a sub-prime market, then regulations would seem appropriate. In a laissez-faire context, then yes.

Oct 06, 2013
No it is not. Of course the mine owners had such control. If I open a mine, and pay children to work in that mine, and watch them die in mining accidents that could be avoided with better safety controls - of course that is something I can control


Yes, and if you implemented better safety and conditions, you could attract better quality workers with better morale and thus better work ethic, reaping improved efficiency,.... as compared to your competition.

In any case, the mine owner is not responsible for personal decisions made by a worker. If workers refuse to work under given conditions, then that owner will have trouble finding quality workers and will fail.

As the general standard of living improved awareness of working conditions increased.

Oct 06, 2013
,... so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces. Everything was relatively crude then in the way things were done in proportion to standard of living. The free market was/is the greatest force for the improvement of the human condition.

Oct 06, 2013
"Through their embrace of and financial support for the state's regulatory regime, the oligarchs have made job creation in non tech-businesses—manufacturing, energy, agriculture—increasingly difficult through "green energy" initiatives that are also sure to boost already high utility costs. "
"The once huge California aerospace industry, centered in Los Angeles, employed hundreds of thousands, not only engineers but skilled technicians, assemblers, and administrators.

This picture has changed over the past decade. California's tech manufacturing sector has shrunk, and those employed in Silicon Valley are increasingly well-compensated programmers, engineers and marketers. There has been little growth in good-paying blue collar or even middle management jobs. "
http://www.newgeo...itude?23

Oct 06, 2013
free markets are regulated by competition and customers

Markets are run by clever businessmen who hire clever promoters to sell inferior goods to uninformed customers who have limited choices and little time to shop around.

It's the fault of businessmen that those particular consumers are ignorant? To buy your argument one would have to ignore the fact that quality products do in fact exist, and that consumers are morons for the most part, taken advantage of by evil businessmen.

Competition is about creating value, producing things people want. The best quality thing gets the most business. Basic and indisputable economics. Consumers are responsible for their own ignorance or lack of, not anyone else.

Oct 06, 2013
rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank

Where is your data?
Socialists like dj like to revise history and take it out of context.

Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.


It was in the best interest of the industry to improve itself. Ford consciously paid his workers more than his competition in order to reduce turn over and increase morale.

Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.


It was in the best interest of the industry to improve itself. Ford deliberately paid is auto workers well by then standards, because he knew he had to create a class that could a-Ford his products.

And he could afford to do because of his innovations create profits. And he also understood the assembly line was a tedious, but important job.

Oct 06, 2013
"so its not that the evil coal mine owners were laughing while watching four year old workers crawl out of the mine with soot covered faces."

It is that the rich mine owners were laughing all the way to bank - knowing that little children were dying to contribute to their mega wealth. It took a collaboration of organizations to break this situation.


It was in the best interest of the industry to improve itself. Ford deliberately paid is auto workers well by then standards, because he knew he had to create a class that could a-Ford his products.

And he could afford to do because of his innovations create profits. And he also understood the assembly line was a tedious, but important job.


I have since edited the statement you quoted, because the left use it out of context in support of 'living wage policy'. Ford of course made decision which were in his companies best interest.

Oct 06, 2013
Ford wasn't the only capitalists to pay his workers well and be attacked for it.
Hershey invented a process to mass produce milk chocolate lowing its cost and creating profits for him, his employees and the farmers of PA.
Hershey was very disappointed when unions horned there way in to leach off his employees.
And continues today:

"Hershey's Candy may leave Hershey PA. to avoid Union Oppression. "
http://yourdaddy....ression/

Oct 06, 2013
The greatest threat to personal liberty is the 'liberal progressive', the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Did your Somalian passport arrive?


I don't know what this response was supposed to mean.

Oct 06, 2013
"I don't know" - NumenTard

Numentard is apparently unaware that government free Somalia - now free from the constraints of the evil that is government, is a Libertarian dream come true.

Somalia is a true Libertarian paradise. So why aren't Libertarians flocking to the place and setting up shop?


Oct 06, 2013
Ford wasn't the only capitalists to pay his workers" - RyggTard

Is that why American's make less now in real terms then they did 30 years ago when Libertarians and Republicans started their war against America's middle class?


Oct 06, 2013
"Hershey's Candy may leave Hershey PA. to avoid Union Oppression." - quotes RyggTard

RyggTard's quote comes from an 20 year old man who started his own ConservaTard blog with government money from the Bush Era.

But of course, there is no shortage of dumb as dirt Conservative Bloggers.

Here is another one....

http://www.misija...y/22/ufo

Oct 06, 2013
"It's the fault of businessmen that those particular consumers are ignorant?" - NumenTard

Often... Yes. I was looking at a compressor/nailgun combo today from Campbell Hausfeld
compressor today. No where on the box anywhere dit tell you what the type of nail that could be used with the thing.

No where on the box did it tell you how much air it could produce at pressure.

Next I looked at a ceiling mounted florescent fixture and no where on the box did it tell you the length of the cord.

A friend of mind had the engine of his car destroyed when a clip that holds one of the cylinder valves broke and the valve dropped into it's engine cylinder while the engine was running. He was told that the clips are known to be defective.

Why did the automobile manufacturer choose to keep him ignorant of the defect?

Why has the processed food industry spent several hundred million dollars opposing laws that would require them to list what is in the food that they sell?

CONT

Oct 06, 2013
Corporations profit primarily by keeping the consumer ignorant. Telling a customer that you have a soap that floats rather than telling them that you are blowing air into the product to increase your profit margins.

When did the U.S. automotive industry start telling it's customers that it's automotive bumpers were nothing but costly adornments made from plastic and styrofoam?

Keeping the Consumer ignorant is Job #1 for most companies.

Oct 06, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard
'
Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Then it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenants of your own ideology.


Oct 06, 2013
Somalia is not a state and no passport is required.

innovation can have a decent chance of succeeding

desire to solve problems is secondary to greed and self-interest.

If self-interest was not protected there would be no innovation.

China invented many things before the west, but the Emperor (govt) controlled all and no one had motivation to innovate. The only motivation for the peasants was to study to be a bureaucrat for the empire.

Oct 06, 2013
I predict in 2014, people will blame republicans for the healthcare tax just as they blame them now for shutting down key aspects of the American society which made this a great country.

Oct 06, 2013
Demanding data that supports common knowledge is a common delaying tactic used by Libertarians and other extremist conservatives.

Water is wet? Where is your data?

Gravity causes things to fall? You have no proof of that.

Blue is the color blue? Can you provide a medical study that proves the relationship?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Vermin.

Oct 06, 2013
"Somalia is not a state" - RyggTard

(The FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF Somalia is a country located in the Horn of Africa. It is bordered by Ethiopia to the west, Djibouti to the northwest, the Gulf of Aden to the north, the Indian Ocean to the east, and Kenya to the southwest.)

http://en.wikiped.../Somalia

RyggTard and his Randite/Libertarian brothers in crime plan to do to America what has been done to the Libertarian paradise nation of Somalia.

Oct 06, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard

Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Either way, it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenets of your own ideology.


Oct 07, 2013
"It is not only a subjective qualification that 'mine owners were happy to send children to their possible deaths', it is patently false, ..... mine owners had no such control," - NumenTard

Are you saying that mine workers had no way to prevent themselves from hiring children? Or are you saying that marketplace provided the mine owners no means of making the mines safer?

Either way, it follows that the historians are correct, and that Government Fiat forced the mine owners to stop employing children, and Government Fiat forced them to improve the conditions in the mines.

Either way you have defeated the tenets of your own ideology.
Remarkable... for once, I agree with VendicarE.

History teaches us unregulated and lightly regulated markets are inherently dangerous.

I mean they didn't call the Wild West "wild" because it was full of socially conscious entrepreneurs...


Oct 07, 2013
UbVonTard apparently has periods of Lucidity.

Perhaps his medication works from time to time.

I give his medication a 5.

Oct 07, 2013
History teaches us unregulated and lightly regulated markets are inherently dangerous.

What history is this?
The 'wild' west was not that wild.
Greeks and the Romans made no technical contributions to our world.

No, I did not. What I asked why didn't the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Chinese have an industrial revolution leading to nuclear energy and space travel?
The extremists have gerrymandered and propagandized their way into positions where they can mobilize enough uncritical voters

Like 'liberals', NEA members, illegal aliens, ....? 'Liberals' have controlled gerrymandered districts for decades leading to the socialism we have today.

Oct 07, 2013
"What history is this?" - RyggTard

The history of man of course, and not the imaginary history of planet ConservaTard that you are familiar with.

"The 'wild' west was not that wild" - RyggTard

It was wild enough to murder 8 million Native Americans and how many million Chinese immigrants?

"What I asked why didn't the Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Chinese have an industrial revolution" - RyggTard

They were too busy inventing steel to invent the transistor.

Why did Christians invent the dark era?

"Like 'liberals', NEA members, illegal aliens, ....?" - RyggTard

RyggTard demands free markets for corporations, but demands a closed market for citizenship.

He is a Libertarian/Randite Statist who, doesn't want any more of those dirty Mexicans in HIS country.

What a lowlife.

Oct 07, 2013
What good is a wheel if there are no roads to roll it on?

Self Proclaimed FreeThinker... RyggTard remains perpetually clueless.

He demands freedom - freedom to invent his own facts.

Oct 07, 2013
You stipulated that the Greeks and the Romans did not make any contribution technologically to our world.


I never said that because I don't believe it.
I have asked why the Greeks or Romans never advanced to create the technology we have today. Why didn't the Romans land on the moon 1000 years ago?

Oct 07, 2013
I've never been told USA was the place to go for science during my generation of studying... everyone seems to rate Europe as the best place to be.

Given there is the ITER the LHC going on here. For physics i don't see why you would go any where else at the moment.

Oct 07, 2013
Ryggy: "I never said that because I don't believe it."

Read it and weep liar - I took the time to hunt back and find your words.

"The Greeks and Romans were educated yet they made little technological progress."

From http://phys.org/n...ans.html

Comment made by you on Sept. 20th

What I said is NOT what YOU said I said:
"You stipulated that the Greeks and the Romans did not make any contribution technologically to our world."

As I said, they did NOT make much technological progress. They rode horses, fought with swords, did not have electricity, used wind to power their ships,... which is not much different than Europe ~1000 years later.
My question still remains, why didn't the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persians, Indians, Chinese ....create the world we have today...when they were ruling the world thousands of years ago.

Oct 07, 2013
From that thread:

My comments:
"Why didn't the Egyptians, Sumerians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, ....invent the printing press?
Why was Gutenberg successful and why was one of the most popular books printed a Bible?"

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp]http://phys.org/n...html#jCp[/url]
"Why didn't Rome develop modern science?
Why didn't Rome end slavery?
Pick any 500 year period in history and compare with 1500-2000. Why didn't the progress made from 1500-2000 occur 3000 years ago? The natural resources were the same."

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp]http://phys.org/n...html#jCp[/url]

Oct 07, 2013
"Why didn't the Romans land on the moon 1000 years ago?"

They were too busy creating the flush toilet.

Why didn't you land on the moon 30 years ago?

Was dat evils gubderment stopping you from making your vacuum cleaner powered rocket motor?

Moron...

Oct 07, 2013
I have several open questions to anyone willing to answer;

How much is too much public debt?

Indeed can there be too much debt?

How much taxation is too much?

Indeed can there be too much taxation?

Given its track record on Medicare, Social Security, Public Education etc, how EXACTLY will the government manage healthcare better than the private sector?

Given that the country has, by historical standards, a MAMMOTH bureaucracy and government regulating it how is more of the same going to fix things? Isn't the definition of insanity continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result?

And now I'll quit asking how blue the sky is and listen to people continue (quite entertainingly) to insist it's green...

Oct 07, 2013
Modernmystic - I would like to add a couple of questions to your very interesting list.

How big a military is too big?


Well one with TEN aircraft carriers in a world where the greatest threats come from horribly ignorant people mired in a very unfortunate world view getting hold of plutonium and building a bomb I'd say America's is WAAAAAY too big. Just my opinion.

Why is education and science less important than killing people?


Is it? Why do people assume their own premises into questions when having a discussion...oh that's right that's not HAVING a discussion that's called hyperbole....

Oct 07, 2013
Your point was wrong. The Greeks and the Romans made much technological progress.

Everyone makes excuses for why human progress was so slow for so long. Or why DID the West make so much progress so fast while so many civilizations did not.
Rome led the world for over 500 years and the best they could do is produce a flush toilet?
Indeed can there be too much taxation?

Indeed can there be too much debt?

Yes.

this is a web site to celebrate science.

Celebrate? 'Celebrating' science demands vigorous debate and rigorous data collection and analysis.
If the US doesn't have an aircraft carrier with its F/A 18s ready to protect the sea lanes and project power, the Russians, or Chinese will.
Without seapower, the Great Britain would not be so great as to stop slave trading in the 19th century.

Oct 07, 2013
"Why didn't Rome develop modern science?" That is a question that is very obvious to me. The answer is because progress is somewhat linear -


They why has progress been very NON-linear the past 500 years?
One answer has been the printing press, but the Chinese had invented the press hundreds of years before.
But then dj and other's don't really want to admit to the answer, state power.
Emperor's, kings, Caesar's had to keep people oppressed, stifle innovation to stay in power. Just as the current socialist regimes do today.

Oct 07, 2013
The real problem with economies is the inflation of fiat currency to finance more public debt. Rome used to shave coins to inflate their money.
Many coins have serrated edges to prevent shaving, but this was when the coins were made of Ag or Au.
Govts like Detroit go bankrupt when they have plundered all the wealth under their jurisdiction.

Oct 07, 2013
"High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com...h59sCA00

"As the world's largest economy and an issuer of the world's major reserve currency, it is important that the US take credible steps to address its dispute over the debt ceiling in a timely fashion and avoid a default."

Of course the USA is not permitted Constitutionally to default of any of its debt. Which means that current revenues must be used to pay the bills and govt spending must fall.
That's how Coolidge boosted the economy in the 20s, he cut govt spending.
Politicians KNOW what is needed but few have the courage to do it.

Oct 07, 2013
When the state punishes innovation and growth and rewards people for not earning, the money runs out.
"Steve Kroft reports on the alarming state of the federal disability program, which has exploded in size in the last six years and could become the first federal benefits program to run out of money."
http://www.cbsnew...ity-usa/
What happened to CBS?
Even Norway and Sweden have been close to hitting the wall and have pulled back on their socialism.

Oct 07, 2013
" Congressman Brooks said, "This debate is not between Republicans and Democrats. It is between those who are financially responsible and have the understanding and backbone needed to prevent an American bankruptcy, and those who do not. This political battle will affect America's future for decades and centuries to come."

Brooks continued, "As bad as government shutdown and debt ceiling risks may be, they are relatively inconsequential compared to the economic devastation resulting from an American bankruptcy."

Brooks concluded, "History proves shutdowns can be overcome, but a debilitating bankruptcy can destroy the America our ancestors took centuries to build."
http://brooks.hou...ibility/

Oct 07, 2013
History teaches us unregulated and lightly regulated markets are inherently dangerous.
What history is this?
The 'wild' west was not that wild.
Apparently, you know very little of history then.

The Wild West was full of entrepreneurs. Everything from big business railroad companies, to individual miners. They raped the land and killed minorities and the indigenous populations with impunity (not to mention killing each other, as well).


Oct 07, 2013
It is amazing! Amazing how many poo heads are born into the world and how many will post here.

"That you equate conservatives with Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Haters, is emblematic of your own ignorance and desire to use false caricatures as a teddy-bear in soothing that ignorance."

The ironic part; the republicans are full of irony! Conservatives *ARE* Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Hater all of the time, unless it's something patriotic or something blessed by a southern baptist minister. You have to ask, what else have they done for you? What else have republicans done that is positive for society? They don't make #jobs, they don't improve the #economy, they just suck of the marrow and complain about how freaking liberalism is!

The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically. Their ego's are another matter.


Oct 07, 2013
The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically. Their ego's are another matter.
Sadly, this is too true. They've become the party of; "No." They apparently have nothing to offer ...no programs, no improvements, no dreams for America. Except for their belligerence, they are all but irrelevant.

Oct 08, 2013
Have you seen the numbers - comparing our defense/security budget with our science and education budget?


Yes..and...?

"Why do people assume their own premises into questions "


Is that not exactly what you were doing with this kind of question?

"Given its track record on Medicare, Social Security, Public Education etc, how EXACTLY will the government manage healthcare better than the private sector?"


No, it's clear to me at least that;

1. The US government's track record on managing those large social programs is ABYSMAL.
2. The private sector's track record (when they're allowed to manage such programs) is far better when looking at raw outcomes.

If you don't agree with me on that then there is little point in discussing the matter because we simply have no common point of reference in reality.

Oct 08, 2013
Sadly, this is too true. They've become the party of; "No." They apparently have nothing to offer ...no programs, no improvements, no dreams for America. Except for their belligerence, they are all but irrelevant.


If I went to a medical clinic and the procedures being offered were;

1. Leg breaking
2. Arm twisting
3. Head bashing

I think I'd be the "party of no" as well....

Oct 08, 2013
The ironic part; the republicans are full of irony! Conservatives *ARE* Racists, Liars, Facists, Traitors, Moronic, and Hater all of the time, unless it's something patriotic or something blessed by a southern baptist minister. You have to ask, what else have they done for you? What else have republicans done that is positive for society? They don't make #jobs, they don't improve the #economy, they just suck of the marrow and complain about how freaking liberalism is!

The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically.


Thank you for that display of ignorance, it is precisely what motivated my post, and you have managed to justify it even further.

Oct 08, 2013
I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically. Their ego's are another matter.
Sadly, this is too true. They've become the party of; "No." They apparently have nothing to offer ...no programs, no improvements, no dreams for America. Except for their belligerence, they are all but irrelevant.


It is because you two don't understand the conservative point of view, precisely as I cited in that post you quoted.

What conservatives have to offer is the private sector and liberty, freedom from government intrusiveness. The economy is generated by the private sector, capitalism, not government. If you are looking for hand-outs and government programs that give free stuff, that increase disability and welfare claims to crisis levels and make people dependent rather than contributing to the economy, then naturally you will not see conservatives around,.. if that is where you look for them.

Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives have to offer is the private sector and liberty, freedom from government intrusiveness.
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered: the fusion of corporation, state and church to create a fascist empire

The economy is generated by the private sector, capitalism, not government.
Capitalism without government is called mafia

Oct 08, 2013
They raped the land and killed minorities and the indigenous populations with impunity

Never lived out west have you.
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered:

Hitler was a socialist forcing industry to do his bidding, just as Google and the medical industry must to do, BHO's bidding.
government is very inept at organizing stuff.

Churches and mutual aid societies are much better. But atheists demand the end of religion and the societal cohesion they provide.All that remains is the state.
They've become the party of; "No."

Yes, the democrats have said NO negotiating our socialist policies.BHO did not win by much of a majority, and neither did the Senate. And the Senate added Cruz, a conservative in 2012.
More state legislatures and governors were picked up by republicans, some conservatives.
Soon the states will have the 2/3rds and 3/4th majority to amend the Constitution without Congress or the President.

Oct 08, 2013
I am not naive like you in then believing that private business is not also problematic.


Neither am I. It's an axiom of LIFE that you're going to have problems, it isn't axiomatic as to which kind you're going to have. Some people prefer private sector problems other public sector.

Please stop assuming my position, it will help us communicate better, and indeed improve your communication across the broad spectrum of your daily interactions with people.

A case I often use here is the wealthy coal mine owners who would employ young children down the mines. It took a coalition of organizations to end that practice - the mine owners were willing to watch little children die for their profit.


So instead they died of starvation? Or did some other work equally dangerous somewhere else? The modern market economy didn't invent poverty it was inherited...

To be CLEAR, I'm not for child labor, I just know it ISN'T AS SIMPLISTIC as your self righteous sermon makes it out....

Oct 08, 2013
They've become the party of; "No.

"He (BHO) repeated that he won't cut deals with conservatives -- because he thinks it would set a bad "precedent"

Read more: http://www.realcl...h9Dgw1HB
Follow us: @RCP_Articles on Twitter

Oct 08, 2013
I also see Republicans who are willing to take everything I have worked for away - over ideology - fucking sick.....


They'd say the same about you too you know. I suggest you find a republican and TALK about it instead of yelling past each other to make sure the points that have been discussed a THOUSAND times are really really REALLY heard...because we need more of that....

I think that is debatable.


It depends on what you mean by that. The facts aren't debatable, values are.

We have a technically excellent medical system here in the U.S. - but 50 million Americans do not have insurance'


Your assumption (assuming again) is they will be with the AMA?

So is the American system the best in the world? I would argue no.


It all depends on your values, base assumptions, and fictive premises you start with. And yes I have them too, we ALL do, some of us recognize this fact, others assume these things AS facts and are oblivious.


Oct 08, 2013
and to just take up a role on physorg of calling bullshit when I see bullshit.


Well I wouldn't put it in those terms at all, but basically that's my idea as well :)

Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered: the fusion of corporation, state and church to create a fascist empire


That's what you think they're offering. They think you're offering the fusion of corporation and state (state run economy) and the obliteration of church to create a communist empire.

Now are either of you accurate?

Capitalism without government is called mafia


No that's what you call mafia. 99% of English speakers call anything without government anarchy. They call people operating a shadow economy outside the bounds of the free market mafia...


Oct 08, 2013
wealthy coal mine owners who would employ young children down the mines. It took a coalition of organizations to end that practice - the mine owners were willing to watch little children die for their profit.


Why should the mine owners of that time, have more concern than the parents of those children, who evidently watched their own children die for their own profit?

The modern mining industry itself, has since increased safety and efficiency as much as can be expected in that inherently dangerous occupation, not on account of the government, but because it is in THEIR best interest to do so.

Oct 08, 2013
My father in law is an arch conservative - but you better not suggest touching his medicare, VA benefits, or SS - so I see a lot of hypocrisy in the conservative movement.


That you would equate his acceptance of benefits he is entitled to with conservative hypocrisy, is indicative your personal ignorance of what a conservative even is.

It is cartoonish to maintain that Conservatism = No Government.

A conservative would point out the fact of inevitability of fiscal insolvency of those government programs and make proposals for correcting them, preferably wrt the private market, but not necessarily to abolish them outright.

Oct 08, 2013
The private sector's track record [...] is far better when looking at raw outcomes.


I think that is debatable. We have a technically excellent medical system here in the U.S. - but 50 million Americans do not have insurance [..] So is the American system the best in the world? I would argue no - that there are examples of systems that may not be quite as technically advanced - but that cover every citizen - that in my opinion makes them a better system.


-No it does not. As a Canadian, I can tell you gov controlled health care is not better. It is not better to have to wait eight months for knee surgery for example.

-No American, insured or not, is ever turned away when they require medical care.

-It was not necessary for the government to take over the entire health care system. Laws could have been passed piece-meal to reform health care instead,... remove restrictions of insurance companies competing across state borders for example, etc.

Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives offer is what Hitler offered: the fusion of corporation, state and church to create a fascist empire


That's what you think they're offering. They think you're offering the fusion of corporation and state (state run economy) and the obliteration of church to create a communist empire.

Communism is a far-right effort to impose the austerity of the Catholic Church upon secular society. That's why Jesuits invented communism in Paraguay then sought financial backing from the Rothschilds to impose their experiment upon a susceptible country

Communism is 100% religion. The atheism aspect was simply to displace gawd for the power of the state and leave a vacuum to fill. Bolshevism is simply Judaism for government officials and austerity for the unconnected. Two Abrahamic religions cooperate to impose fascism

Oct 08, 2013
The most ironic of twists is; I've never seen a republicans/conservative/teaparty government do anything right with people, or improve anything economically.

There hasn't been a single neo-conservative/Libertarian derived policy in the last 40 years that hasn't been a complete disaster for the American People.

Oct 08, 2013
"What conservatives have to offer is the private sector and liberty, freedom from government intrusiveness." - NumenTard

Is that why Conservative George Bush started the NSA spying on the American people, logging their telephone contacts, email's, and every address they send mail to?

Is freedom from government intrusiveness the reason why Conservatives are doing their best to make abortion unavailable to women?

Do private sector Troll roads make people more free? Or do they restrict their movements by imposing a direct fee on their movement.

How does the Conservative opposition to network neutrality - the free movement of information across the internet - promote freedom?

And on and on the Conservative assault on personal liberty and freedom and liberty goes.


Oct 08, 2013
What conservatives have to offer, is nothing but corruption, ignorance, deceit, hate, immorality, treason and continuous ideological failure.

The only good conservative, is a dead conservative.

Oct 08, 2013
What American Capitalism has done to the American People

US adults are dumber than the average human

http://nypost.com...e-human/

Oct 08, 2013
our assumption (assuming again) is they will be with the AMA?

The American Medical Association, which have a minority membership of physicians, forced the closure of hospitals operated by mutual aid societies decades ago.
Another example of the 'progressive'/statist take over of society.

Oct 08, 2013
"In an emergency, the president can certainly act to prevent a default, and thus uphold the constitutional mandate. Indeed, he would be violating his oath of office not to.

Default is nothing more than a failure to pay the interest and principal due on a debt in a timely manner. According to figures in a Power Line post, right now the government is spending about $17 billion every business day. It takes in about $14 billion in revenues. Thus it needs to borrow about $3 billion every business day to make up the difference.

A failure to raise the debt ceiling would prevent the government from borrowing that money. But it would not prevent the government from paying the interest on the debt, which amounts to only about 8 percent of revenues. Nor would it prevent the government from rolling over existing debt, which it does routinely.

What it would have to do is prioritize what bills it pays, leaving some unpaid. "
http://www.commen...default-

Oct 08, 2013
What American Capitalism has done to the American People

US adults are dumber than the average human

http://nypost.com...e-human/


Your dishonesty knows no bounds. The results of that study are in direct proportion to the abysmal failure of government sponsored and unionized public education, and the rise of the welfare state,... both of which are promoted by the left. It has absolutely zero to do with American capitalism.

That you are anti-capitalism and anti-corporation, makes you a hypocrite if held to the same logical standards you hold Rand to wrt SS. It also makes you entirely irreverent in American society. Have you left yet, or are you still here mooching off of the American Capitalist economy?

Oct 08, 2013
"The results of that study are in direct proportion to the abysmal failure of government sponsored and unionized public education," - NumenTard

And yet the government sponsored and unionized public education systems of Europe and the Socialist Pacific Rim nations are the eduation systems that America is losing to.

The socialist states have been outperforming America in every measure since Reagan took power and started the Conservative War on the U.S. middle class.


Oct 08, 2013
"That you are anti-capitalism and anti-corporation, makes you a hypocrite if held to the same logical standards you hold Rand to wrt SS." - NumenTard

I am neither an anti-capitalist or anti-corporation. I am simply anti-stupidity, which also immediately makes me anti-NumenTard.

It is self evident that corporations must be heavily regulated and managed by the people in order for corporate corruption against the interests of the people to be minimized.

The principle failure in America is a direct result of a dramatic increase in the corporate slavery endured by the American people since the mid 1950's.

Corporate Slavery promoted and cultured by Randite, Libertarian, and Conservative political groups in America.

Oct 08, 2013
"Have you left yet, or are you still here mooching off of the American Capitalist economy?" - NumenTard

As I have said repeatedly, I left the failing American state years ago when it became obvious that Republican (all tratiors) were planning to destroy the country.


Oct 08, 2013
It is laughable that NumenTard blames socialism for the inferior performance of Americans in every category measurable, compared to their socialist counterparts in almost every other nation.

To a logical person, if Socialism was the problem then the performance in the more socialist states would be worse. Yet the exact opposite is seen. In general, the more a state follows the American Capitalist model, the worse it performs.

This pattern has not changed in the last 40 years, and as America has sunk deeper and deeper into cretinous Republicanism, and deeper and deeper into inferiority.

American intellectual inferiority isn't just about the Conservative penchant to marry their cousins anymore.....




Oct 08, 2013
"Default is nothing more than a failure to pay the interest and principal due on a debt in a timely manner. " - RyggTard

Why would anyone lend money to a deadbeat?

"A failure to raise the debt ceiling... would (not) prevent the government from rolling over existing debt, which it does routinely."

Why would anyone lend money to a deadbeat?

In the case of Default, the U.S. would need to pay higher rates of interest on existing debt in order to attract investment fools.

Currently the rate of return is around 3 percent on average. This represents an interest charge of 3 * 160 billion per year. Adding even another percentage point would increase the yearly cost of servicing the U.S. debt by an additional 160 billion per year.

RyggTard, and his source - commentarymagazine - a Libertarian rag, are innumerate.


Oct 08, 2013
"The American Medical Association, which have a minority membership of physicians, forced the closure of hospitals operated by mutual aid societies decades ago." - RyggTard

Another Lie from RyggTard

Meanwhile......

US adults score below average on worldwide test

http://phys.org/n...ide.html

It is sad to see what RyggTard and his Capitalist brothers in crime have done to America.

Oct 08, 2013
"Have you left yet, or are you still here mooching off of the American Capitalist economy?" - NumenTard

As I have said repeatedly, I left the failing American state years ago when it became obvious that Republican (all tratiors) were planning to destroy the country.



And you continue to refuse say where you live. It's easy to critique a country you don't like from under your desk.

"Default is nothing more than a failure to pay the interest and principal due on a debt in a timely manner. " - Ryggs


Why would anyone lend money to a deadbeat?


They wouldn't, so that should answer your question. That they and the global economy invest money in the USA's future economy and are in fact dependent upon it's economic strength, demonstrates the continued resounding success of American capitalism.

Oct 08, 2013
Noumenon believes that the government had nothing to do with health and safety standards around the world.


Where have I maintained that the government does not set health and safety standards? I expect you to quote me saying that, or I will assume you are a liar.

Only a despicable idiot would call his own father a hypocrite for accepting VA benefits that he earned. How's that for vitriol?

Oct 08, 2013
They wouldn't, so that should answer your question. That they and the global economy invest money in the USA's future economy and are in fact dependent upon it's economic strength, demonstrates the continued resounding success of American capitalism.
Even more astounding given all the money was counterfeit by criminals and sanctioned by a government violating it's own constitution!

Oct 08, 2013
"Government Shutdown Hobbles Mine Safety Agency During Spate Of Worker Deaths "
http://www.huffin...829.html

Most dangerous jobs:
No. 1: Fishers and related fishing workers
No. 2: Logging workers
No. 3: Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
No. 4: Refuse and recyclable material collectors
No. 5: Roofers
No. 6: Structural iron and steel workers
No. 7: Farmers and ranchers
No. 8: Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
No. 9: Taxi drivers and chauffeurs
No. 10: Electrical power-line installers and repairers
No. 11: Police and sheriff's patrol officers
No. 12: Grounds maintenance workers
No. 13: Construction laborers
No. 14: Coal mining
No. 15: Operating engineers and construction equipment operators

Read more: http://www.busine...hAcCnlFp

Oct 08, 2013
They wouldn't, so that should answer your question. That they and the global economy invest money in the USA's future economy and are in fact dependent upon it's economic strength, demonstrates the continued resounding success of American capitalism.
Even more astounding given all the money was counterfeit by criminals and sanctioned by a government violating it's own constitution!


I'm thinking you believe that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were an inside job, and the moon landing was faked.

How stupid do you believe the rest of the world must be to consider the USA dollar the standard, if there was no substantive basis for doing so?

Oct 08, 2013
"Government Shutdown Hobbles Mine Safety Agency During Spate Of Worker Deaths " - RyggTard

Filthy TeaBag Republicans.


Oct 09, 2013
"Government Shutdown Hobbles Mine Safety Agency During Spate Of Worker Deaths " - RyggTard

Filthy TeaBag Republicans.



If the point of that article at the HuffingtonPost was to imply that the government is so intergral to industrial safety that a temporary shutdown has lead immediately to deaths, then they must have contempt for the intellectual capacity of their readship.

@djr, at least you quoted me in full, which I believe makes clear my meaning. When I say "not on account of the government", of course I'm not implying that OSHA and the FDA (or whatever the equivalent in other countries) doesn't exist, I'm saying its in the best interest of modern industry to improve its safety standards in any case. The technological improvements for purposes of efficiency came from industry, not the government. P.S, how do you feel about siding with a admitted anti-capitalist, anti-corporation, anti-american, socialist? Pathethic.

Oct 09, 2013
Anyone who is truly concerned about safety would demand an effectivity analysis.
There has been an entire govt agency whose job it is to force mines to be safe. They fail to do so.
'Progressive'/socialist refuse to accept that self-interest is a powerful motive. The auto industry has been made safer by the auto companies themselves and by the insurance industry that profits or loses from auto accidents. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety conducts more rigorous safety tests than the US govt and auto companies strive to achieve high marks from the IIHS.
What is really interesting is the 'progressives' who demand federal regulations agree with many large industries who demand the same. Large industries can hire staff to influence and manage the govt bureaucracy but their smaller competitor can't.
'Progressives' are in bed with big business!

Oct 09, 2013
Clarification; I should have said ACA not AMA.

I don't like to use the term "obamacare" I think it's disrespectful and creates hostility. What I meant was the affordable care act.

Sorry for the confusion.

I am comfortable with differing politics - not with a lack of moral compass.


And yet politics and ethics are inextricably linked....

But you'd have a drink with someone who says (and I'm paraphrasing) "The only good (insert your favorite villain here) is a dead (re-insert your favorite villain here).

Please kindly elucidate how that kind of person passes muster to "have a beer with"....

Oct 09, 2013
how do you feel about siding with a admitted anti-capitalist, anti-corporation, anti-american, socialist?

I would have a beer with Vendi any day of the week. Based on your morals - not so. I was raised in a world with very diverse political perspectives - I am comfortable with differing politics - not with a lack of moral compass.


I think your VA benefit receiving father would shed a tear of disappointment had he known you would be willingly to sit and have a beer with an anti-american socialist who stated this....

"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" = VendicarE

Why don't you ask him?

My mistake was in only being factually wrong, even though I had admitted to it and provided rational na factual reasons which lead me astray. You are more despicable than just being in error, ... calling your own father a hyposcrite for accepting VA benefits, and siding with a known perpetual liar and anti-American.

Oct 09, 2013
,... and by extension of course you can replace the above quote with "dead British".

Oct 09, 2013
So why do we even need a government agency - when the wonderful industry will do the right thing without any prompting?


Yes, why?
1. So 'progressives' can extort campaign contributions from corporations. ("Nice little business you got there. It would be a shame if we had to shut it down for violating (fill in the blank).
2. Corporations that want to use force to stifle competitors, but can't without going to jail, 'hire' the govt to do so for them by prompting the regulatory state to make regulation too onerous and unprofitable for competitors.
This was the motivation for the FDA, an alliance with 'progressives' and large meat packers to limit competition.
And when the regulators are bought off the 'progressive' laments and demands more regulators, increasing the size of the state, his one desire, but with no corresponding regulatory efficacy.
If the 'progressive' truly desired safety, all ways and means would be open to analysis and discussion.

Oct 09, 2013
" Imagine you're the CEO of a major airline, and one day all the regulatory agencies disappear. Are you going to stop maintaining your planes? At the risk of stating the obvious, the answer is no. One disaster could be the death knell for an airline, particularly if there were the slightest hint that the company was skimping on upkeep.

Moreover, it's highly unlikely that investors would plow money into an airline when share value could disappear overnight because of an accident. And banks presumably would be leery about lending to an airline that faced the risk of quick bankruptcy. Moreover, insurance companies would have a very strong incentive to monitor the safety practices of the airline— and keep in mind no bank would lend money to an airline that lacked insurance.

In other words, the competitive marketplace can be viewed as a very effective form of regulation. Instead of rules and red tape from Washington, the profit motive creates mutually reinforcing oversight."

Oct 09, 2013
calling your own father a hyposcrite for accepting VA benefits, and siding with a known perpetual liar and anti-American.


Correction - father in law. Yes it is hypocritical to promote a political philosophy - especially in the mean spirited hateful way that I see coming from many on the right - and then to live a life that is in direct contradiction to that philosophy - for your own personal privilege. See the above Ayn Rand discussion.


It is clear that you have never read Ayn Rand. Her philosophy is based on "for your own personal privilege", egoism. Thus, she was not hypocritical in the least, yet you wish to continue that lie even after having been told so and provided her own words on the subject.

Further, that you equate 'being a conservative' with 'advocating for No government', is symptomatic of you being victimized by leftists propaganda. I already explained this to you, yet you repeat that lie.

Oct 09, 2013
"My mistake was in only being factually wrong"

Ryggy and Noumenon constantly want to re-litigate issues that are open and shut. Noumenon's mistake was NOT in only being wrong - it was in knowingly repeating a falsehood multiple times. That is the lack of moral compass that I am referring to - someone who does not care about the truth - only about trying to look good.


It is YOU who kept mentioning my mistake even after I had already admitted to the error. You continue to do so. It was closed once I had admitted I was wrong.

Oct 09, 2013
In other words, the competitive marketplace can be viewed as a very effective form of regulation. Instead of rules and red tape from Washington, the profit motive creates mutually reinforcing oversight."
That's like claiming you don't need to navigate your sailboat because the wind is currently to your back

So nice that you have a piece of puffery for every day of the year, ryggie. Would be nicer if you kept your bad habits to yourself

Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.

Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.
Oh you mean that one that I live in? Being forced to live in reality seems painful for you, ryggie. Maybe you should join a prepper underground network to await the blossoming of your Somalian libertarian paradise, since Somalia doesn't give pasports

Or crowdfund and buy Sealand. I heard it was for sale. Uzbekistan has some openings as well

Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.

Oct 09, 2013
And, once again, koch and his fellow travelers can't provide a cogent response to defend their failing socialistic regulatory state.
Oh you mean that one that I live in? Being forced to live in reality seems painful for you, ryggie. Maybe you should join a prepper underground network to await the blossoming of your Somalian libertarian paradise, since Somalia doesn't give pasports

Or crowdfund and buy Sealand. I heard it was for sale. Uzbekistan has some openings as well

Koch, don't feel bad, Sweden, Norway and Cuba can't defend their socialism.

Oct 09, 2013
"The world needs more dead americans in Afghanastan & Iraq" = VendicarE

Absolutely correct.

The more expensive America's war crimes in Iraq are made for Americans, the less likely they will be repeated.

"and by extension of course you can replace the above quote with "dead British"." - NumenTard

Without question.

Oct 09, 2013
"Source for that 8 month wait?" - Neinsense

Long term waits on the order of years are a result of the system trying to limit the lifetime number of procedures. and to provide maximal lifetime for the ones that are performed.

Mecanical Knees and hips need replacement after a decade or so, and the system sees knee replacements for 95 year olds as wasteful of resources. So if there are to be three replacements and they last 10 years each, it is best to schedule them at 85 and 75 and 65 rather than 60,70,80.

Short term delays on the order of months are generally the result of short term triage.


Oct 09, 2013
'Liberals' have jumped the shark and have no rational argument to defend Obamacare.

"Racism and Cruelty: What's Behind the GOP's Healthcare Agenda? - See more at: http://www.thenat...R6y.dpuf

In a similar vein, a sociologist claims indigenous American's wide variety of maladies are caused by a football team called Redskins.
Is it a coincidence the team is from Washington, DC, home of the US govt agency that is supposed to help, and assuage the guilt, of how the US govt treated aboriginal Americans?
Why hasn't the Bureau of Indian Affairs solved all the problems the sociologists claims aboriginal Americans have?

Oct 09, 2013
The real title of RyggTard's link.

Racism and Cruelty: What's Behind the GOP's Healthcare Agenda? -

http://www.thenat...ejd.dpuf

Oct 09, 2013
@ryggie Koch, don't feel bad, Sweden, Norway and Cuba can't defend their socialism.
Yes, three nations Americans flee to because they can't obtain affordable quality healthcare in their own nation!

Strange how even libertarians become very practical and "socialist" when death knocks. If pathological lying and antisocial behavior were fatal libertarianism would cease to exist

Oct 10, 2013
Wow, this thread has turned into a very lengthy commentary. It looks like my friend @R2 is being hammered on dodge, diversion, misdirection and lack of facts; just as all of the rightwing posters are. You sound just like the republican congress R2, excuse after excuse to make an argument based on fallacy that is based on fallacy. The whole conservative premises has been wrong since Ragan and it wasn't all that good before him.

In the Big picture, where do you go with all of this; Your denialism of the environment and global warming, healthcare for all Americans and people on US soil, the opposition to a well regulated system of taxes and services that benefit the citizens, society and the global community; Your denialism is systemic of what is wrong right now with America.

What is the republican dream? What system would you impose on all people to make a functional society? And would it actually work if you really had a plan.

If you can't say; then STFU.




Oct 10, 2013
healthcare for all Americans

All citizens and illegal aliens in the US can get FREE health care BEFORE Obamacare.

Sweden's abolished its tax on wealth to keep wealthy Swedes from leaving the country and now Norway is following in the path of Sweden by reducing its welfare that incentivized people NOT to work.
Sweden also provides vouchers for k-12 education instead of govt mandated public schools.
And, Sweden and Norway are about the size and population of WI or MN. The US is supposed to be a republic. Let each of the 50 states decide how to deal with health care, which is what republicans have supported, rather than govt health care.
whole conservative premises has been wrong since Ragan

The 20+ years of prosperity resulting from Reagan's policies are finally being choked off by the 'progressive' socialism.
Just a few years of anti-socialist policies, from Coolidge, JFK and Reagan take decades for the socialists to smother.

Oct 10, 2013
Funny you guys should mention Sweden. This is an interesting article.

http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0

Don't you love google? Here is my favorite line from the article "Their core premise — that greater government involvement in health care provision spells disaster — lacks support in the wealth of evidence from around the world"

Dont tell Noumenon - too much cognitive dissonance would ensue.

Dig a bit deeper and you will find the reason. They all have SMALL govts, homogenous populations and low corruption. At least in Scandinavia.
If you want similar results, federalize, don't nationalize. Gut the HHS, DoEd, ... and return power to the states.

Oct 10, 2013
"Reich acknowledges that ObamaCare "is hardly perfect," but he insists "the president cannot re-negotiate the Affordable Care Act" because that would mean giving in to the Republicans: "If you give in to bullies, their bullying only escalates." America is stuck with this monstrous law because the alternative would be too costly to Obama's pride. Disgust and cynicism seem an entirely appropriate reaction."
http://online.wsj...pOpinion
Can't bruise the dear leader's ego, can we.

"Ronald Reagan was the last president who had a basic skepticism of Big Government, but Barack Obama may end up having done more than any of his predecessors to promote that feeling among the public."

Oct 10, 2013
The fact is that Noumenon has claimed that governments cannot manage a good health care system. The fact is that I just proved that is false.


No, the FACT is that such a thing CAN'T be proven false OR true. You said manage a "good health system"....good to WHOM? By WHOSE standards...yours? Why do we use yours? Why not use yours? Values aren't facts....I'll say that again VALUES aren't FACTS, they are human created fictions no different than religion or a thousand other things we pretend are true because they make us feel safe and comfy.

Moreover what you "proved" is that the SWEDISH government can manage what you consider a good health care system in the context of SWEDISH culture (ie dealing with people raised in Sweden...NOT Americans). So even IF we assumed your values are "good" or "right" or "correct" you're still not making the case socialized medicine will work in America, even to the extent that YOU think it's "good"....

Oct 10, 2013
The fact is that Noumenon has claimed that governments cannot manage a good health care system.

So why is the US govt managed system operate so poorly with so much waste, fraud and corruption?
And ditto for the UK system? Why does the UK health care system kill patients?

Oct 10, 2013
"The reality is that Swedish healthcare is the perfect illustration of the tragedy of central planning. It is expensive and — even worse — it kills innocent people. "
"An American medical student and friend of mine spent a year at a major Swedish hospital. He was shocked when he realized that students never spent any of their spare time in the operating room; there was no drive to become the best. There are of course enthusiasts who love their work regardless, and do a fantastic job, but the system is not conducive to this attitude. "
"It was recently revealed in one of the major newspapers that doctors were told to prioritize patients based on their value as future taxpayers. Old people naturally have a low future-taxpayer-value, so they naturally became low priority in the machine and less likely to receive proper treatment. I"
http://mises.org/daily/6476/
Something rotten in Sweden.

Oct 10, 2013
"Admission is by appointment only. Usually they have a 30-minute window every morning, when you call to claim one of the budgeted slots. Make sure to call early or they run out. Rarely will you get an appointment for the same day. You will be assigned a general practitioner, probably one you have never met before; likely one who does not speak fluent Swedish; and very likely one who hates his job. If you have a serious condition, you will be started on a path of referrals to experts. This process can take months. Contrary to what professor Frank believes this is not a "feature" of the system, to ensure maximum capacity-utilization. This is an unavoidable characteristic of central planning, analogous to Soviet bread lines, which nobody refers to as a "feature."

This healthcare "bread line" is where people die. It happens regularly that by the time a patient gets to see an expert, his condition has progressed beyond remedy. "
http://mises.org/daily/6476/

Oct 10, 2013
"The market for private healthcare in Sweden is small. Few people can afford it since they already pay 70 percent tax for all of their "free" stuff. The politicians have private health care, though, naturally paid for by taxpayers."
"When I moved to the U.S., our family health insurance took three months to kick in. One of my family members broke a leg in this period. We found a "five-minute clinic" half an hour away, had the leg X-rayed, straightened and casted, with no waiting time — all for $200 cash. That kind of service is non-existent in Sweden."
"The reason American insurance-based healthcare is so expensive is that it is heavily regulated and legally connected to the equally-regulated insurance industry. Both are well protected from competition by regulation."
http://mises.org/daily/6476/

Oct 10, 2013
it is a good system

Not according to Swedes who have to suffer in it.
If the U.S. 'free market' health care system i

What free market health care system? The US does NOT have a free market healthcare system.

Oct 10, 2013
There are a few free market health care pockets. One in is OK.
"It is no secret to anyone that the pricing of surgical services is at the top of the list of problems in our dysfunctional healthcare system. Bureaucracy at the insurance and hospital levels, cost shifting and the absence of free market principles are among the culprits for what has caused surgical care in the United States to be cost prohibitive. As more and more patients find themselves paying more and more out of pocket, it is clear that something must change. We believe that a very different approach is necessary, one involving transparent and direct pricing.

Transparent, direct, package pricing means the patient knows exactly what the cost of the service will be upfront."
http://www.surger...m/about/
Unless the state forces them to close, I suspect there will be more like this.

Oct 10, 2013
@ryggie And ditto for the UK system? Why does the UK health care system kill patients?
The most dangerous place to be is at a hospital. More people die in hospitals that anywhere else. You haven't told anything new

Oct 10, 2013
Who is being cared for in any health care system?
Individual people who have the final say on the value of the health care provided.
Everyone in the USA can have free medical care.
Why do 'liberals' conflate heath insurance with health care? Are they shilling for insurance companies?
"But what does "access" mean? Is there some epidemic of oversized hockey goalies standing outside hospitals, blocking people from getting into the ER? Have I just missed the news that hospital walkways are booby trapped and that you can only sneak through the door if you have your own invisibility cloak?"
http://capitalism...th-care/

Even the Swede who emigrated to the US had access to health care before his insurance was in effect.

Oct 10, 2013
"Consider, for example, one of the many aberrations in the U.S. system that unnecessarily cost us billions of excess dollars: hospital site of service differentials. Medicare {GOVT controlled} pays far more for physician services delivered in a hospital or hospital-owned facility than for the exact same services delivered or procedure performed in a private practice physician office."
"But the ACA, with its incentives for integrated care, is actually driving more physicians to hospital employment, pushing more services into the more expensive hospital-owned facility. "
http://www.forbes...explode/

Oct 10, 2013
"Talk to any hospital CEO in Massachusetts, and they will say the local health care market is actually two separate markets: one defined by privately insured care, and one defined by government-subsidized care. Because government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are notoriously stingy when it comes to reimbursing health providers — often paying less than 70 cents on the dollar for the cost of care, according to state and federal data — hospitals and other care givers are required to offset the difference by hosing the privately insured.

That said, it's no mystery why the cost of private health insurance is skyrocketing."
"So buckle up, America. Those $25 co-pays and $2,000 deductibles you're being asked to pay today will seem quaint in five years."
http://www.bizjou...page=all

Oct 10, 2013
Maybe scientists should do a bit more thinking.

"To understand why the whole bizarre business continues to thrive, follow the money. It will lead you straight to the treasuries of state and federal governments, where academia constitutes an important player in the fascistic enterprise coordinated by politicians in office and their appointed bureaucrats at agencies such as the National Science Foundation. The payoff to society, however, is entirely another matter. One wonders how long this way of doing economics can survive as the state's relentless expansion eats more deeply into society's capacity to bankroll the silliness of people who would rather solve make-believe economic puzzles than—not to belabor my point—simply think about how the world works."
http://blog.indep...rch-too/

Oct 10, 2013
For all you 'liberals' who demand Obamacare.....

"Let's keep in mind that Obamacare is very good for the health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies."
http://www.agains...ifornia/

Oct 10, 2013
Do 'liberals' want real reform? No.

"Fully repeals President Obama's health care law, eliminating billions in taxes and thousands of pages of unworkable regulations and mandates that are driving up health care costs. "
"Provides tax reform that allows families and individuals to deduct health care costs, just like companies, leveling the playing field and providing all Americans with a standard deduction for health insurance."
"Expands access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), increasing the amount of pre-tax dollars individuals can deposit into portable savings accounts to be used for health care expenses."
http://rsc.scalis...rway.htm

Oct 10, 2013
I don't think that RyggTard has ever answered a question that has been put to him. I certainly never remember seeing such an event.

He just posts pointless propaganda, typically dishonest, and quotes from nobodies who suffer from the same mental disorder as he.

Thinking is required to answer questions and RyggTard doesn't answer questions because he really can't think for himself. He calls himself a "free thinker" but like virtually all self professed "free thinkers" he relies on others to do the thinking for him, and he just parrots their nonsense.

Pathetic.

Oct 10, 2013
"Fully repeals President Obama's health care law" - RyggTard

The Republican wet dream. The least American health care possible for the highest possible price for Americans.

That was the Republican protected system before Obama's health care reforms.


Oct 10, 2013
"The US does NOT have a free market healthcare system." - RyggTard

And Americans are much better off as a result.

Free markets provide the worst possible product at the highest possible price.

How much are you willing to pay to stay alive?


Oct 10, 2013
health spending and insurance 2007

Canada, Australia, Germany, U.S.

Per Capita $3,326, $3128 $3,287 $6697

Percent Uninsured 0% 0% 0% 16%

Who's financial interests is RyggTard and the corrupt Republicans trying to protect?


Oct 10, 2013
Life Expectancy

Socialist Sweden 81, Capitalist USA 78

Infant Mortality

Soclalist Sweden 2.7, Capitalist USA 5.9

Doctors per 100,000 citizens

Socialist Sweden 3.6, Capitalist USA 2.4

Nurses per 100,000 citizens

Socialist Sweden 10.8, Capitalist USA 10.6

PerCapita expenditure on health care

Socialist Sweden $3,432 Capitalist USA $7,437

Satisfied with quality and availability of health care.

Socialist Sweden 77%, Capitalist USA, 81%, Germany 88%

RyggTard. busted again.


Oct 10, 2013
"Let's keep in mind that Obamacare is very good for the health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies." - RyggTard

Phase 2 won't be so happy for them. Costs must be reduced, and therefore so their profits will be reduced.


Oct 10, 2013
"To understand why the whole bizarre business continues to thrive, follow the money. It will lead you straight to the treasuries of state and federal governments, where academia constitutes an important player in the fascistic enterprise coordinated by politicians in office and their appointed bureaucrats at agencies such as the National Science Foundation." - Chicago School of Economics

Thanx Riggtard. You have just made it clear to the members of the National Science foundation who the enemy is.