US tries to contain damage from leaked documents (Update 2)

US tries to contain damage from leaked documents (AP)
This Aug. 14, 2010 file photo shows WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in Stockholm, Sweden. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Friday, Nov. 26, 2010 spoke with the Chinese government about the expected release of classified cables by the Wikileaks website. The release of hundreds of thousands of cables is expected this weekend, though Wikileaks has not specified the timing. (AP Photo/Scanpix/Bertil Ericson, File) SWEDEN OUT

(AP) -- The release of more than 250,000 classified State Department documents forced the Obama administration into damage control, trying to contain fallout from unflattering assessments of world leaders and revelations about backstage U.S. diplomacy.

The publication of the secret memos and documents amplified widespread global alarm about Iran's nuclear ambitions and unveiled occasional U.S. pressure tactics aimed at hot spots in Afghanistan, Pakistan and North Korea. The leaks also disclosed bluntly candid impressions from both diplomats and other world leaders about America's allies and foes.

Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini called the release the "Sept. 11 of world diplomacy," in that everything that had once been accepted as normal has now changed.

In the wake of the massive document dump by online whistleblower and numerous media reports detailing their contents, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was expected to address the diplomatic repercussions on Monday. Clinton could deal with the impact first hand after she leaves Washington on a four-nation tour of Central Asia and the Middle East - a region that figures prominently in the leaked documents.

Rep. Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, the senior Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, called the release very damaging.

"The catastrophic issue here is just a breakdown in trust," he said Monday, adding that many other countries - allies and foes alike - are likely to ask, 'Can the United States be trusted? Can the United States keep a secret?' "

In London, David Field, a spokesman for British Prime Minister David Cameron, said "it's important that governments are able to operate on the basis of confidentiality of information." French Foreign Ministry spokesman Bernard Valero said "we strongly deplore the deliberate and irresponsible release of American diplomatic correspondence by the site Wikileaks.:"

Pakistan's foreign ministry said it was an "irresponsible disclosure of sensitive official documents" while Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, called the document release "unhelpful and untimely." In Australia, Assange's home country, Attorney General Robert McClelland said law enforcement officials were investigating whether WikiLeaks broke any laws.

The encrypted e-mails and other documents unearthed new revelations about long-simmering nuclear trouble spots, detailing U.S., Israeli and Arab world fears of Iran's growing nuclear program, American concerns about Pakistan's atomic arsenal and U.S. discussions about a united Korean peninsula as a long-term solution to North Korean aggression.

None of the disclosures appeared particularly explosive, but their publication could become problems for the officials concerned and for any secret initiatives they had preferred to keep quiet. The massive release of material intended for diplomatic eyes only is sure to ruffle feathers in foreign capitals, a certainty that already prompted U.S. diplomats to scramble in recent days to shore up relations with key allies in advance of the leaks.

At Clinton's first stop in Astana, Kazakhstan, she will be attending a summit of officials from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, a diplomatic grouping that includes many officials from countries cited in the leaked cables.

The documents published by The New York Times, France's Le Monde, Britain's Guardian newspaper, German magazine Der Spiegel and others laid out the behind-the-scenes conduct of Washington's international relations, shrouded in public by platitudes, smiles and handshakes at photo sessions among senior officials.

The White House immediately condemned the release of the WikiLeaks documents, saying "such disclosures put at risk our diplomats, intelligence professionals and people around the world who come to the United States for assistance in promoting democracy and open government."

U.S. officials may also have to mend fences after revelations that they gathered personal information on other diplomats. The leaks cited American memos encouraging U.S. diplomats at the United Nations to collect detailed data about the U.N. secretary general, his team and foreign diplomats - going beyond what is considered the normal run of information-gathering expected in diplomatic circles.

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley played down the diplomatic spying allegations. "Our diplomats are just that, diplomats," he said. "They collect information that shapes our policies and actions. This is what diplomats, from our country and other countries, have done for hundreds of years."

The White House noted that "by its very nature, field reporting to Washington is candid and often incomplete information. It is not an expression of policy, nor does it always shape final policy decisions."

"Nevertheless, these cables could compromise private discussions with foreign governments and opposition leaders, and when the substance of private conversations is printed on the front pages of newspapers across the world, it can deeply impact not only U.S. foreign policy interests, but those of our allies and friends around the world," the White House said.

On its website, The New York Times said "the documents serve an important public interest, illuminating the goals, successes, compromises and frustrations of American diplomacy in a way that other accounts cannot match."

Le Monde said it "considered that it was part of its mission to learn about these documents, to make a journalistic analysis and to make them available to its readers." Der Spiegel said that in publishing the documents its reporters and editors "weighed the public interest against the justified interest of countries in security and confidentiality."

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange claimed the administration was trying to cover up alleged evidence of serious "human rights abuse and other criminal behavior" by the U.S. government. WikiLeaks posted the documents just hours after it claimed its website had been hit by a cyberattack that made the site inaccessible for much of the day.

But extracts of the more than 250,000 documents posted online by news outlets that had been given advance copies of the documents showed deep U.S. concerns about Iranian and North Korean nuclear programs along with fears about regime collapse in Pyongyang.

The Guardian said some cables showed King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia repeatedly urging the United States to attack Iran to destroy its nuclear program. The newspaper also said officials in Jordan and Bahrain have openly called for Iran's nuclear program to be stopped by any means and that leaders of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Egypt referred to Iran "as 'evil,' an 'existential threat' and a power that 'is going to take us to war,'" The Guardian said.

Those documents may prove the trickiest because even though the concerns of the Gulf Arab states are known, their leaders rarely offer such stark appraisals in public.

The Times highlighted documents that indicated the U.S. and South Korea were "gaming out an eventual collapse of North Korea" and discussing the prospects for a unified country if the isolated, communist North's economic troubles and political transition lead it to implode.

The Times also cited diplomatic messages describing unsuccessful U.S. efforts to prod Pakistani officials to remove highly enriched uranium from a reactor out of fear that the material could be used to make an illicit atomic device. And the newspaper cited exchanges showing Yemen's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, telling Gen. David Petraeus that his country would pretend that American missile strikes against a local al-Qaida group had come from Yemen's forces.

The paper also cited documents showing the U.S. used hardline tactics to win approval from countries to accept freed detainees from Guantanamo Bay. It said Slovenia was told to take a prisoner if its president wanted to meet with President Barack Obama and said the Pacific island of Kiribati was offered millions of dollars to take in a group of detainees.

It also cited a message from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing that included allegations from a Chinese contact that China's Politburo directed a cyber intrusion into Google's computer systems as part of a "coordinated campaign of computer sabotage carried out by operatives, private security experts and Internet outlaws."

Le Monde said another memo asked U.S. diplomats to collect basic contact information about U.N. officials that included Internet passwords, credit card numbers and frequent flyer numbers. They were asked to obtain fingerprints, ID photos, DNA and iris scans of people of interest to the United States, Le Monde said.

The Times said another batch of documents raised questions about Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and his relationship with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. One cable said Berlusconi "appears increasingly to be the mouthpiece of Putin" in Europe, the Times reported.

Der Spiegel reported that the documents portrayed German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle in unflattering terms. It said American diplomats saw Merkel as risk-averse and Westerwelle as largely powerless.

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, meanwhile, was described as erratic and in the near constant company of a Ukrainian nurse who was described in one cable as "a voluptuous blonde," according to the Times.

The State Department's top lawyer warned Assange late Saturday that lives and military operations would be put at risk if the cables were released. Legal adviser Harold Koh said WikiLeaks would be breaking the law if it went ahead. He also rejected a request from Assange to cooperate in removing sensitive details from the documents.

Hoekstra was interviewed Monday on ABC's "Good Morning America" and CBS's "The Early Show."


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World braces for WikiLeaks flood of US cables

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Nov 29, 2010
The only nations that are the most dangerous are the one's most in debt and telling other nations what they should do, while increasing their military arsenal--USA and England.

These countries are the two most nonsensical and the UN should limit their influence in other countries affairs.

Osama Bin Laden was right about the USA is not "Pagan" it is full of heathens.

Nov 29, 2010
I've read some of the releases and the ones I've seen so far are rather tame. The anti-Iran regime sentiment is huge. It appears that the popular liberation of that country by more moderate elements is comming to a head, while Mugabe is probably going to get offed leaving the area completely unstable. Very interesting reading so far. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in geopolitical news.

Nov 29, 2010
Oddly enough I agree with you. The US and UK should withdraw from the UN and cease all contact with that body.

This of course includes all finacial, personnel, military, sustinance and all other forms of support of the UN and all accosicated programs.

What? The US and UK provide 30% of the UN funds? Oh well, they will just have to get by with less then wont they?

Oh where were you wanting them to relocate to? We can use that building for something constructive.


Nov 29, 2010
I don't understand why the US is being so limp wrested with this wikileaks idiot assange. If it's classified documents and damaging national security, arrest or shoot the idiot do-gooder in the face and shut down the web site.

Now I understand that you can't arrest the media once info is leaked, but it's different with Assange because he setup a means of leaking classified doc's therefor he is a part of the conspiracy to release top secret doc's.


Nov 29, 2010
Clearly there are many Americans here who no longer participate in the ideology of our Constitutional founders. They seem to prefer the iron fasces of Mussolini, or the totalitarian conquest of the NAZIs above the inheritance they received from their ancestors.

These strange "Americans" begin to ape the ghosts of our past enemies while committing the same crimes against the innocent and the weak.

The present world does not justify these extreme innovations; the world has always been evil and violence has always been among us. There was vast atrocity and terror in past times (Even greater than now!) but never before has such lawless imperialism gained hold of our national government, at least since the genocide of the American aborigines.

This generation will ever be remembered for its infantile tyranny and betrayal of our common social trust. They murder with no justice, lie with no hesitation, and treat madness with the dignities only due the highest wisdom.

Nov 29, 2010
It's a sad result that the ideals that founded the country didn't protect against this. I would agree that those principles have been left behind, but to become re-acquainted with it would still risk the same result in the future. Rather than just get reacquainted with its past, I would say that it may be in the best interests of Americans to allow for some of the foundations of their ideals to be rocked. It's become more important to get along with others anyway.

Nov 29, 2010
[in whiny high liberal voice...] never before has such lawless imperialism gained hold of our national government, at least since the genocide of the American aborigines.
... ooohhh brother,... [rolleyes]

Nov 29, 2010
I don't understand why the US is being so limp wrested with this wikileaks idiot assange. If it's classified documents and damaging national security, arrest or shoot the idiot do-gooder in the face and shut down the web site.

Now I understand that you can't arrest the media once info is leaked, but it's different with Assange because he setup a means of leaking classified doc's therefor he is a part of the conspiracy to release top secret doc's.


You understand nothing. assange is not a US Citizen, and therefore cannot be accused of treason. He hasn't broken any International or Common Law.

If you are so anxious to prosecute, why aren't you screaming for the arrest and conviction of the people who routinely leak information from the Justice Department, State Department, US Attorney General's Office, The Pentagon, et c, et c- on a more or less daily basis, and simply for political gain?

Nov 29, 2010
Contd

You can be certain that those leaks directly affect the lives of far more Citizens and Servicepeople than these wikileaks will.

But that's the BIG, IMPORTANT difference between them- the Wikileaks are going to cause pain for elected and appointed officials, government relations, and business, and of course, those are the only interests that really matter, and you brainwashed sockpuppets prove it -every time you defend those interests by hypocritically calling for a jihad against WikiLeaks.


Nov 29, 2010
No, it is you who is clueless, or you have a problem with reading comprehension. I said IF this classified document leakage is a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY, the USA should arrest or take him out. Whether he is a US citizen or not is quit irrelevant. And in fact as we speak he is being 'investigated' by the USA. Again, I have no problems with media publishing already leaked documents, but if it can be shown that some media perticipated in the conspiracy to leak, then I have a problem. This Assange is a typical liberal do-gooder idealist imbecile, that doesn't have near the capacity of understanding to determine what should be made public and what should not, but yet has the incredible naïveté to think he as a single individual can be the decision make.

Nov 29, 2010
... should arrest or take him out. ...


You know they can't arrest him. Are you suggesting the US government send a hitman to find him and murder him in his sleep?

If so, I direct you to Arkaleus's comment above.

Nov 29, 2010
@Noumenon
Are you a god, a king or perhaps a president?
You are the one to decide what is right or not?
Is your government the one to decide what is right or not for you?
What gives anyone the right to decide for anyone else? Dont you want to be free and decide for yourself?

Dont you think everyone has the basic right for freedom? So what is the first step to gaining freedom? Maybe by knowing the truth?

Enough rhetorics.

You are just an-other brain washed sheep, and you are forgetting that we all live in the same world and that we are all living beings.

Nov 29, 2010
Governments need their influence stripped down, they only mess things up, waste taxes tell other countries what todo and invadee their land for who knows what (probably resources). Its good to have a basic law that can protect us from for ex. (radiation) pollution but the law keeps taking a little bit of our freedom every week, and its happening world wide if you havent noticed.

Get the truth out, its our basic right as it is part of freedom and our rights as a human race.

As for ppl with primitive mindsets like Noumenon, please GTFO.

Nov 29, 2010
I cannot "stress" common sense enough people are for the most part perverting what has gotten them to where they are today. It stares at people everyday and they decide to deny it.

An example is that Adolph Hitler was the only leader to talk for humans 1000 years. A thousand years of plans is an enormous amount of time to plan for in a country.

The problem is that the so called "good" countries like USA and England decided to involve themselves in years they had no account for not even today. The result is perversion that is so obvious people are tired of it.

Professional athletes and politicians alike having pre-marital sex like its Adolph's birthday every day. It supports Adolph Hitler's ideals not the ideal of marriage--- reproduction, construction.

Unprofessional--Looking up to pre-marital sex athletes, politicians, teachers, it is the perversion and turning out from World War human beings have to realize.

Nov 29, 2010
... should arrest or take him out. ...


... they can't arrest him.

False.

Nov 29, 2010
@kaasinee
I'm not sure what the point of your post is. Assange is a crusader for some idealistic cause, one for which even an 11 year old girl knows is cartoonishly naive. Exposing the Truth. You have no intrinsic right to classified information. Further it is outright dangerous for a government to be completely transparent. No gov in human history has ever operated that way for good reason. There are things the public should not know. Things that are a matter of national security and international strategy.

What gives anyone the right to decide for anyone else?
Hmmm, what gives the dolt Assange the right to decide what should not be classified or not? Is he competent with respect to international diplomacy? Do diplomats have a right to keep things secret? You mush-head idealists are never willing to deal with as they are, only as "they should be" as assessed by your limited perspective.

Nov 29, 2010
Too bad we don't have the leaks from other countries as well. I hear that their assessments in private of the The Won are not very complimentary either.

Nov 29, 2010
Looking forward to the leak re: banks to come out... keep it up WikiLeaks.

Nov 29, 2010
What's going on with the chain of custody of classified intelligence that Assange is able to get ahold of and release so much of it? While Assange may not himself be in violation of any law, and may believe himself to be revealing the truth of our government's dealings with foreign nations, it seems obvious that in order for him to have access to this level of information, somebody had to have broken the law.

Insofar as the release of this information merely embarrasses, or exposes duplicity and corruption, I applaud its release, and insofar as it puts American troops and operatives in real danger, I deplore it, but no more than the duplicity and corruption which are the real human source of such danger.

Nov 30, 2010
@Frajo, nada, taliban,

You guys live in a left-wing progressive idealistic fantasyland, ....open borders, redistributive wealth, anti-capitalistism, transparent diplomacy,... the supposed dishonesty all eradicated and so wars obsolete as misunderstandings become a thing of the past, and what to fight for anyway as wealth is distributed "fairly".

Even the lowest rank of PETA (mostly 9 year old girls) have more sense. This fantasyland not only does not exist in reality, it can not exist even in principal. Assange and you guys are doing good only in your own idealistic artificial mind.'In reality Assange (and the mental child Manning) is creating diplomatic damage he doesn't have the knowledge or capacity to understand or predict,.. and so on this bassis alone he should be shot on site or at last arrested.

Nov 30, 2010
insofar as it puts American troops and operatives in real danger, I deplore it
I deplore the killing of innocent people and their post-mortem humiliation as "collateral damages".
I don't deplore any aggressor who is harmed.
And I don't care for nationalities.


This is the thing, this is my point. Someone like you who decides in their little PETA'esque head how the world "should be" thinks they know best as opposed to everyone else who operates in the world as it is. You think you discovered something?

Also, the notion that the USA can't arrest the liberal "savior" Assange because he's not America, is more clueless drivel. All the USA has to do is get whatever country the dolt is from to extradite him to the USA, and there tried for espionage or conspiracy thereto. But beside that he can be captured and held indefinitely if it is deemed he is a threat to national security without trial,... all legal.

Nov 30, 2010
... lawless imperialism gained hold of our national government, at least since the genocide of the American aborigines
Only someone painfully clueless would ever make such a ridiculous statement. The American Indians were nothing more than savages who had no concept of Nation, no sophisticated idea of government, so had as much right to the Americas as a anything else that roamed the land. Western Europe was proven right wrt it's concept of Nations as that is clearly what exists. The idea that the west (Western Europe/USA) are evil doers around the world is laughable. Do you have any clue whatever of how many outright murders occured at the hands of Russia, China, Japan, Germany, Africa, etc, in modern times,... it makes the USA historical total look minuscule. Secondly, the entire planet relies on the USA economically, and the USA has done far far more good around the planet than any other country in history.

Nov 30, 2010
.... Just the medical advances alone brought to the world by America saved countless people. America's involvement around the world has stopped wars, genecides, starving, and has generally improved the quality of life by it's innovations and through capitalistic competiion,... and you have the nerve to whin about collateral damage?!! Why don't you complain about human rights of women in Iran, Afghanistan, and what about human right violations in china, and geez you think people are doing well in communist North Korea!?That the USA and Britain even approach the idea of evil that you have compared shows your remarkable ignorance. America makes mistakes, is not perfect does not equat to it being evil or bad. I suspect that if you even glanced at modern history you would gain perspective enough to never utter such non-sense again.

Nov 30, 2010
The natural conclusion of an ideology such as Assange (& Frajo) is a One World government based on socialistic principals. This means a bunch of ex-PETA, social engineers in Control "fixing" every problem perceived and statistically demonstratable in a society and ultimately across borders, ... everything from what temperature the earth "should be" to what temperature you are ALLOWED to set your thermostat to. This means a reduction of freedoms and is counter to all natural instincts of man. This is why such experiments in history have lead to mass deaths. In stark contrast freedom and capitalism is perfectly in line with human nature and is the reason it works and improves the world.

Nov 30, 2010
The natural conclusion of an ideology such as Assange (& Frajo) is a One World government based on socialistic principals.
No, it'd be freedom of information.

How can you profess to support freedom when you can't determine what it actually is? If your government (and mine) hides every action behind a shroud of secrecy then the endgame will always be aggression and class warfare. To expose and create transparency, something that conservatives have been crying for decades about, reduces hostility.

This is why you don't like the progressive tax system, it seems unfair, this is why you don't like socialist policies, they seem unfair, but when someone comes forward and releases pure information, you have a problem with that.

Pick a consistent stance.

Nov 30, 2010
insofar as it puts American troops and operatives in real danger, I deplore it
I deplore the killing of innocent people and their post-mortem humiliation as "collateral damages".
I don't deplore any aggressor who is harmed.
And I don't care for nationalities.
And then you would see nationalities destroyed and chaos reign; because in this world nationalities need to fight to defend themselves from chaos. Nations represent order. Order is subject to entropy unless it is actively maintained. You are crippled by your naive idealism.

Nov 30, 2010
I find it amusing that some of you purport an interest in science but cannot see that the best political philosophy and form of government is one that is founded on natural instincts of man, egoism, freedom, individuality.

Science does not proclaim how nature "should be", it aims to uncover and take advantage of how it actually IS. I find freedom, capitalism, competition to be a beautiful nature force that has done great things, counter to ad-hoc oppressive governments such as dictatorships, socialism, and communism.

Nov 30, 2010
Also, the notion that the USA can't arrest the liberal "savior" Assange because he's not America, is more clueless drivel. All the USA has to do is get whatever country the dolt is from to extradite him to the USA
Which is probably why he's going to ecuador, to escape extradition for rape and crimes against humanity.

In truth assange is probably doing what he has been told to do because his actions would have gotten him 'preempted' otherwise. Info and disinformation is routinely 'leaked' for a number of reasons- to expose spies and double agents, to implicate enemies, and to propagandize, which is probably the case here. It is also done to genuinely share info when actually giving it away would prove embarrassing.

Nov 30, 2010
"I look forward to a world, an utopian world, where all secrets would be made illegal." -Oppenheimer

"Perhaps someday, but not today." -Gowron

Nov 30, 2010
@SH, Of course I'm all for freedom of speech. which is why I don't call for legal action against the media for disseminating the secret documents. But we are talking about SECRET CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, do you understand!?!! This is NOT about the government withholding information that they have a right to,... it's about NATIONAL SECURITY,.. information that is leaked that would undermine the USA and other countries international diplomacy,.. all done by a no-nothing twit of an idealists activist. You do not a right to secret documens, do you understand this!!!?

Nov 30, 2010
"I look forward to a world, an utopian world, where all secrets would be made illegal." -Oppenheimer

"Perhaps someday, but not today." -Gowron


Yes, it's not possible to dislike such a dream, but if forced into being before it's time (but not today) it results in oppression. Such idealistic dreams don't exist in reality and probably can't even in principal. What about the rights of a country's leadership to hold their diplomatic strategy close to their chest for the good of their nation?

Nov 30, 2010
"I look forward to a world, an utopian world, where all secrets would be made illegal." -Oppenheimer

"Perhaps someday, but not today." -Gowron


Yes, it's not possible to dislike such a dream, but if forced into being before it's time (but not today) it results in oppression.
The even greater threat is that it can lead to the collapse of the civilization that has any hope of one day delivering this dream. There ARE enemies of Stability and Progress and they will always seek to take advantage of weakness.

"All of war is deception." -And until the threat of war is alleviated we must maintain the ability to deny the enemy any knowledge of how he may prevail, and of how we intend to prevail over him. Anything less would be surrender and the betrayal, and suicide.

Nov 30, 2010
The biggest issue here is not the water that's already spilled over the dam. The issue is about who, what, when, where, and why the dam didn't hold. If security is too lax, or if an individual or company can be found to be responsible either by malfeasance or negligence, then those are actionable. Fix the root cause, not the symptom. This guy and his web site aren't the root cause, rather a symptom.

To fix it, you seal up security first. Eliminate the source of the problem.

Then you can also try to make it less profitable and remove the financial motivation of the leaks. Sanction advertisers on the web site with civilian boycots, for example, or seize US accounts held by wikileaks until sources are revealed is another option if a leagal case can be made.

We can't fight international crime by broadcasting our investigations. We can't depose dictators by open public discussion alone. It takes a little bit of dirty fighting to win a street fight. That's nothing to be ashamed of.

Nov 30, 2010
@SH, Of course I'm all for freedom of speech. which is why I don't call for legal action against the media for disseminating the secret documents. But we are talking about SECRET CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, do you understand!?!!
No, I understand perfectly. Do you understand what the vast majority of "SECRET CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS" actually are? Do you understand what a "SECRET/NOFORN" cable contains? I do. I've also read many of them, while in the service and now, after leaving the service. It's chatter and gossip. Have you even visited the site to see what all the fuss is about?
it's about NATIONAL SECURITY,..
No, it really isn't. Go read some of the cables and tell me if it's important to national security that an ambassador to Zimbabwe thinks that KJI's kid is gay.
information that is leaked that would undermine the USA and other countries international diplomacy
We're doing a good job of that ourselves. Think about START, it doesn't pass, we've damaged relations greatly.

Nov 30, 2010
Otto, no one wants to share your miserable ideology because it creates unhappiness and destruction. Like or not, you need peaceful relationships with your neighbors in order for any society to function.

Face it man: Tyrants fail, force cannot maintain its rigor forever, and the ruins of empires based on the poisonous mantras you spit out litter the mud of every inhabited continent. You cannot "rule" forever.

Only peaceful, lawful civilizations endure - your twisted methods sow discord, hatred, and warfare. Liberty and friendship are what human nature desires, not the counterfeit currency you call "order".

Empires must collapse when they become corrupted; they must not endure beyond their time. Tyrannies must fall when their strength is dissipated - this is the natural order.

When the rich and powerful agree to interfere with this process, institutions live beyond their natural time and this creates the disease, chaos, and disorder we presently endure in our societies.

Nov 30, 2010
"When the rich and powerful agree to interfere with this process, institutions live beyond their natural time and this creates the disease, chaos, and disorder we presently endure in our societies"

Wow. Do you really believe that? I think that's clearly wrong. Not everyone is prosperous, but our societies, with all their ills, are currently enjoying health, wealth and prosperity like never before. The arts and sciences are expanding at an explosive rate. Human life span and quality of life are better than ever in many places. Food production exceedes anything dreamed of 100 years ago. Global communication is leading to more globalized economies and politics every day.

I would guess that most people from previous times would choose our time over any other. I look forward to 'enduring' a HD movie streamed from Netflix on my big screen later this evening while I lament the tortures of modern life.

Nov 30, 2010
@SH, it is irrelevant whether or not documents classified as secret actually turn out to meet your understanding of secret. If some system or person classified them as such, that is all that matters. I mean really, what do you want to do publish them so The People can decide whether they should be classified or not!? The only point that matters is if they are classified secret by what ever authority.

Nov 30, 2010
@SH, it is irrelevant whether or not documents classified as secret actually turn out to meet your understanding of secret. If some system or person classified them as such, that is all that matters.
And that's the problem.
I mean really, what do you want to do publish them so The People can decide whether they should be classified or not!? The only point that matters is if they are classified secret by what ever authority.
Again, arbitrary secrecy results in the abuse of power. That's your entire stance when it comes to small government. Why can't you maintain consistency?

Nov 30, 2010
Ah, I see the problem:

miserable ideology
poisonous mantras
twisted methods
counterfeit currency
natural order

-You choose the ideology which allows for the chance to generate the most pretentious phrases per post. You forgot 'dastardly villains' and 'cursed evil'.
Otto, no one wants to share your miserable ideology because it creates unhappiness and destruction.
No, your ideology, when empowered as in the isolationist movements before the world wars, only leads to greater eventual destruction. You would rather palliate the symptoms of unrest rather than address the cause, as Neville Chamberlain did with the third reich.
http://en.wikiped..._1938.29

We know better now. Appeasement and concession never work with cultures whose own form and function make them inexorably aggressive.

Nov 30, 2010
The only point that matters is if they are classified secret by what ever authority.
To add numbers to the secret docs:

"Der Speigel gets specific and writes: "Around half of the cables that have been obtained aren't classified and slightly less, 40.5 percent, as classified as "confidential." Six percent of the reports, or 16,652 cables, are labelled as "secret" and of those, 4,330 are so explosive that they are labelled "NOFORN," meaning access should not be made available to non-US nationals.""


Nov 30, 2010
Appeasement and concession never work with cultures whose own form and function make them inexorably aggressive.
You should tell this the SCO member and observer states.
Are you talking about specific situations? These nations are at the receiving end of direct islamic aggression, both from the outside and from within their borders. Whats your point?
http://en.wikiped...nisation

"Grigory Logninov claimed in April 2006 that the SCO has no plans to become a military bloc; nonetheless he argued that the increased threats of "terrorism, extremism and separatism" make necessary a full-scale involvement of armed forces."

Nov 30, 2010
This article clearly shows that at least publicly the SCO is not interested in appeasment:

http://www.global...rl02.htm

At the end of the day though, you can't be enemies with everyone. Sometimes its a case of choosing the lesser of two evils rather than being able to choose good over evil. Frajo is always a radical though. He's such a hater.

Nov 30, 2010
This article clearly shows that at least publicly the SCO is not interested in appeasment:

http://www.global...rl02.htm

At the end of the day though, you can't be enemies with everyone. Sometimes its a case of choosing the lesser of two evils rather than being able to choose good over evil.
'The enemy of my enemy is my friend.'
Frajo is always a radical though. He's such a hater.
Full of bile. And knows so little about history, which is no doubt why.

Good link. Thanks.

Nov 30, 2010
USA plays the same game as everyone else only we do it better and with better intentions. We wouldnt have to use devil tactics if we weren't up against devils. People that don't know what they are talking about need to keep their two cents because no real americans want it.

Nov 30, 2010
Only peaceful, lawful civilizations endure
Thats really a nonsense statement, isnt it? I'll make a list:
China- 3400 yrs
Egypt- 3200 yrs
Mayan- 2900 yrs
Byzantine- 1000 yrs
Rome- 1300 yrs
-http://askville.a...=6023868

-All of which lasted far longer than any western entity, and none of which were particularly peaceful or 'lawful'. They usually endured by waging continuous wars, often against their own people.

If youre talking about those which exist today, they have also been involved in near-constant warfare since inception, and their futures all remain very uncertain given projected threats.

You say things while trying to be poetic but they dont often survive even cursory scrutiny. Do they now?

Nov 30, 2010
Otto,

Chamberlain did not share my ideology, and appeasement and concession to foreign aggression is not a traditional majority view among Americans. It is, however, a constant minority view among our people. I tend to favor justice and a strong defense.

The Reich we challenged and defeated in the 20th century finds a worthy ally in your cantankerous "rule by power" ideology.

You consistently agitate for the end of independent nations and the suppression of individual liberty so the powers may act uncontested. You snidely platform malevolent social theory as though it were lofty and accepted philosophy.

I can only interpret your agenda as hostile to the republic of the United States and contrary to the natural sentiments of the majority of my people.

You can always take your platform to the polls, Otto, I'm sure the public would love to hear what you really have in mind.

Nov 30, 2010
'snidely platform' :)
I can only interpret your agenda as hostile to the republic of the United States and contrary to the natural sentiments of the majority of my people.
-You mean like this??:
This generation will ever be remembered for its infantile tyranny and betrayal of our common social trust. They murder with no justice, lie with no hesitation, and treat madness with the dignities only due the highest wisdom.
This sounds like extreme pacificism and anti-americanism to me.
You can always take your platform to the polls, Otto, I'm sure the public would love to hear what you really have in mind.
And you consistantly misinterpret what I say, because 1. I consistantly say it better than you, and 2. You love to garner the approval of your friends.

I advocate very little (except an end to religion, like your buddy thrashymachus). I only try to interpret what I see. In this you and I are drastically different. You pontificate; I would see the office abolished.

Nov 30, 2010
Chamberlain did not share my ideology, and appeasement and concession to foreign aggression is not a traditional majority view among Americans. It is, however, a constant minority view among our people. I tend to favor justice and a strong defense.
?? Well, your friend frajo most obviously does not, and yet Ive never seen you challenge her on it, nor anything else for that matter. Why is that? Stars more important than the quest for Truth?

The Power of Consensus and Approval... This is why real democracy can never work, why the people must always be told who to vote for and why. Because thats what they really want.

Nov 30, 2010
This generation will ever be remembered for its infantile tyranny and betrayal of our common social trust. They murder with no justice, lie with no hesitation, and treat madness with the dignities only due the highest wisdom.
You can always take your platform to the polls, Arkalitmus, I'm sure the public would love to hear what you really have in mind. Although I'm sure you'd choose something to say which would suit the tastes of whomever you were addressing, no?

Dec 01, 2010
So should governments be able to have any secrets? In your day to day interactions you have to say and do things that may deviate from your internal dialogue. Do you really want it to be the case that diplomats have no confidential channels of communication? How would that ever be useful?

I think this leak is intentional and primarily aimed DPRK and other 'axis of evil' countries. Assange would be inside a plastic dry-cleaning bag with with a hole in his head at the bottom of a body of water if the US really had misgivings about his activities.

Dec 02, 2010
This whole mess is the result of US's ME foreign policy. If the US has not so influenced by the Israeli lobbies to look the other way, and wholeheartedly support all the things the Israelis do in ME, then the anger that boiled into 911 and the arms race of Iraq, Iran and others could have been avoided. Just to be a devil's advocate: Who is to say Israel would not "manufacture" a "clear and present danger" to drag the US war machinery and resources back to square one repeatedly, whenever they see the advantage to their own survival? History has shown that the golden rules of foreign relations have always been: " Like or dislike is not an issue. Trust or distrust is not an issue. Self interest IS THE ISSUE. Friends nor enemies are not forever, self-interest is". There you have it folks. So stop wondering why things happened the way they do.

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