Army to test XM25 'smart' grenade launcher rifle (w/ Video)

May 09, 2010 by Lisa Zyga weblog
A soldier aims an XM25 weapon at Aberdeen Test Center, Md. Credit: US Army.

(PhysOrg.com) -- The US Army has recently announced plans to test the high-tech XM25 airburst grenade launcher this summer in Afghanistan, unleashing a weapon that veterans predict could be a game-changing advantage in the war. The XM25 can fire 25mm rounds that explode at any distance set by a soldier, effective at a range of up to 700 m. Because the 14-pound, $25,000 gun can fire rounds in just seconds, it could replace the need to call in fire missions, artillery or airstrikes in some situations, which can take anywhere from several minutes to an hour to arrive.

Army officials say that the XM25 could be ideal in current situations in Afghanistan, where the enemy tends to hide behind barriers such as walls and trees or in underground trenches, often at distances of 300 m or more. Right now, such targets are difficult to hit even for skilled marksmen, since a bullet is only lethal if it hits the head or vital organs.

Since the blast radius of the XM25 is equivalent to a hand grenade, it could allow US soldiers to target and kill these hidden snipers. For example, if an enemy is hiding inside a distant building, a soldier can point the gun at the building’s façade, which measures the distance using lasers and sensors. The soldier can then add (or subtract) a smaller distance so that the round explodes at an estimated location close to the enemy. When the soldier fires, the microchip-embedded round tracks the distance it has traveled by the number of times it rotates. Upon exploding, the 25mm round spreads shrapnel in all directions, likely killing anyone nearby. Compared to a typical M4 carbine, the gun doesn’t require extreme precision to kill even at these long ranges, potentially making it one of the deadliest hand weapons in the Army's arsenal.

This video is not supported by your browser at this time.
This live-fire demo shows the XM25 firing rounds through the window of a simulated building.

"It brings, right now, organic to the squad, the capability to defeat targets that we're seeing everyday in Afghanistan -- targets that we can't currently hit," said Col. Doug Tamilio, project manager for soldier weapons with the Army's Program Executive Office . "It will save soldiers' lives, because now they can take out those targets."

After the weapon is tested by a group of Army Special Forces Soldiers this summer, Army officials may expand the use of the weapon in the future. The Army is currently deciding whether to purchase 12,500 of the weapons, which are made by Heckler and Koch, although a final decision is awaiting a program review by senior Army officials.

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More information: Military.com

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weewilly
3 / 5 (6) May 09, 2010
I wish we would have had something like that in Nam. Maybe more would have come home. It is time to end all wars if that is possible. I'd like to see that. Oh well, in the meantime I guess we have to fight the fight to preserve our freedoms and protections.
zslewis91
3.5 / 5 (13) May 09, 2010
cash sir. cash...the pawns or moved in and out for cash. "fight the fight to preserve our freedoms and protections." so very untrue...we fight for power. control. nothing more....amaricans are not as noble as we'd wish to think.
Vsha
3.4 / 5 (13) May 09, 2010
I can't rejoice at any technology whose aim it is to kill humans more effectively. But you have to wonder where science would be without our basic animal drive for self preservation and domination.
Eric_B
4.7 / 5 (3) May 09, 2010
What I also find disturbing is the proliferation of "non-lethal" weaponry for use against civilian populations. It takes all the gusto out of slogans such as, "Give me freedom or give me death!"

I can take away you freedom now without any concern for cost, consequence or liability!
wawadave
3.2 / 5 (5) May 09, 2010
I can't rejoice at any technology whose aim it is to kill humans more effectively. But you have to wonder where science would be without our basic animal drive for self preservation and domination.
Still descending from primates....
otto1923
4.3 / 5 (6) May 09, 2010
cash sir. cash...the pawns or moved in and out for cash. "fight the fight to preserve our freedoms and protections." so very untrue...we fight for power. control. nothing more....amaricans are not as noble as we'd wish to think.
Without the Power to control anarchy, to replace chaos with Order and Stability, there would be no freedom. It's not about nobility- it's about the preservation of everything of value to society which has taken so much effort to accrue. It's about Survival. You know this, you're just being a jackass because it's fashionable.
marjon
2.7 / 5 (7) May 09, 2010
without our basic animal drive for self preservation
...we would not exist.
marjon
1.8 / 5 (5) May 09, 2010
I can take away you freedom now without any concern for cost, consequence or liability!

Go ahead, make my day.
weewilly
4 / 5 (12) May 09, 2010
America has preserved freedom for many countries. We paid the heavy price for protecting nations that were overwhelmed by dictators. You might disagree with me and that is your right, but you have that right today because of what America has done.
ereneon
5 / 5 (5) May 09, 2010
Though I'm personally not a big fan of the wars in the middle east or purely military tech, I must admit using the rotation of the round to calculate the distance is pretty clever. Though I wonder if varying atmospheric conditions could mess that up enough to cause problems...
KBK
5 / 5 (5) May 09, 2010
All politicians and corporate heads should be strapped, spread eagled, to the front of the first tank or heavy vehicle in any war they condone, create, or allow to occur. That might slow down their willingness to sacrifice others for their hubris and ego.
marjon
2.5 / 5 (8) May 09, 2010
All politicians and corporate heads should be strapped, spread eagled, to the front of the first tank or heavy vehicle in any war they condone, create, or allow to occur. That might slow down their willingness to sacrifice others for their hubris and ego.

What do you suggest be done to the college professor that encourages others to build bombs from common materials and detonate those bombs in public places?
Tanks and other sophisticated military hardware are designed to protect the operators and to inflict damage at specific targets with the least amount of collateral damage. It is easy and cheap to indiscriminately destroy. It is difficult and expensive to destroy only what one must for defense.
Quantum_Conundrum
3 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
All politicians and corporate heads should be strapped, spread eagled, to the front of the first tank or heavy vehicle in any war they condone, create, or allow to occur. That might slow down their willingness to sacrifice others for their hubris and ego.


In the ancient world, kings and clan leaders often fought on the front lines anyway, as a matter of "honor," so it would make little difference in the greater scheme of things.
Quantum_Conundrum
1.5 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
Though I'm personally not a big fan of the wars in the middle east or purely military tech, I must admit using the rotation of the round to calculate the distance is pretty clever. Though I wonder if varying atmospheric conditions could mess that up enough to cause problems...


The software is probably designed to automatically compensate for the "average" effects of humidity, pressure, temperature, wind direction, and precipitation on the rotation and forward velocity of the projectile.

So for example, if the humidity is 95%, it might wait for one extra rotation before detonating as compared to a humidity of 80%.
abadaba
5 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
Though I'm personally not a big fan of the wars in the middle east or purely military tech, I must admit using the rotation of the round to calculate the distance is pretty clever. Though I wonder if varying atmospheric conditions could mess that up enough to cause problems...


The software is probably designed to automatically compensate for the "average" effects of humidity, pressure, temperature, wind direction, and precipitation on the rotation and forward velocity of the projectile.

So for example, if the humidity is 95%, it might wait for one extra rotation before detonating as compared to a humidity of 80%.

With only a range of 700 meters, and the distance being estimated by the user anyway, i doubt humidity would have a huge effect on the distance particularly with the round it's delivery being an explosive round with some room for error...
otto1923
3 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
any war they condone, create, or allow to occur
YOU CANT STOP WAR. War is Inevitable. You can however delay it, schedule it, orchestrate it, contain it, and ensure that it does not imperil the things which are most essential to the survival of civilization. It only takes Leaders on opposing sides who understand the causes of war, and who accept that they share mutual Problems, for this to occur. In order to understand this, one need only contemplate what things would be like had the familiar wars never happened as they did. Where would all those people be living? What would they and their decendents be eating? How long would it take for war or revolt to happen by themselves?

Planned Wars offer immeasurable benefit to civilization, just as spontaneous wars offer immeasurable peril. This makes them irresistable and essential. Leaders need only realize that the Enemy is the people and not each other. Long ago They became a tribe unto Themselves with the acceptance of this Truth.
otto1923
not rated yet May 09, 2010
With only a range of 700 meters, and the distance being estimated by the user
Its got a very capable laser rangefinder. Try YouTube. I see there is already a mounted automatic version of this in service. I thought this particular weapon was supposed to include an integral assault rifle? Caseless ammo possibly?
Quantum_Conundrum
1.5 / 5 (10) May 09, 2010
Otto1923:

Calculations by some groups have shown that the earth could concievably support as many as 100 billion human beings in a stable ecology at living standards equal or greater than the U.S. today.

I realize that with existing infrastructure and wasteful practises this seems impossible, but you have to figure eventually you would have mega-city arcologies (ceratainly in the 500-800meter range,) for the primary housing, commercial and production needs, saving land area for farming.

Greenhouses are up to 15x more productive than open fields, so they could eventually cover all fields with massive greenhouse projects, greatly increasing productivity and minimizing loss due to inclimate weather, fire, or pests.

Finally, floating cities could eventually "farm" oceans in a controlled manner with pollution-free artificial seas(giant aquariums.)

Where does the energy come from? The sun! (wind and solar.)
marjon
1 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
QC: You have not even started on the Dyson sphere.
Quantum_Conundrum
1.6 / 5 (12) May 09, 2010
Otto 1923:

Next, think of how many people have died in wars, death camps, domestic murder, and induced abortions.

Now of course, progressives and atheistic communists see this as, a good thing, i.e. "Wow, that many less mouths to feed!"

But from my perspective as a Christian I see each human life as valuable in and of itself, as we are all created in the image and likeness of God. We are valuable enough that Jesus died for us.

In addition, the progressive position is irrational anyway. The more mouths to feed the bigger problem, true, however the more brains you would have working on the problems.

How many would-be Einsteins, Edisons, Newtons, Hawkings, and Teslas died in german, russian, and chinese extermination camps? How many would-be Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Wozniaks died in other pointless conflicts, or were murdered by their own mother, a.k.a. "abortion"?

Every human being is worth saving.
ebnv
1 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
How sure could anyone be that the 'target' is the target and nothing but the target if it is behind buildings 700m away?

This is distressing, more civilian casualties, more hatred for americans.
ebnv
1 / 5 (5) May 09, 2010
This article is an insult. physorg is now guns and ammo?
Caliban
3.2 / 5 (9) May 09, 2010
Otto 1923:

Next, think of how many people have died in wars, death camps, domestic murder, and induced abortions.

Now of course, progressives and atheistic communists see this as, a good thing, i.e. "Wow, that many less mouths to feed!"

But from my perspective as a Christian I see each human life as valuable in and of itself, as we are all created in the image and likeness of God. We are valuable enough that Jesus died for us.

In addition, the progressive position is irrational anyway. The more mouths to feed the bigger problem, true, however the more brains you would have working on the problems.

How many would-be Einsteins, Edisons, Newtons, Hawkings, and Teslas died in german, russian, and chinese extermination camps? How many would-be Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Wozniaks died in other pointless conflicts, or were murdered by their own mother, a.k.a. "abortion"?

Every human being is worth saving.


Aw, Jeez -another god-gusher.
Tan0r5
not rated yet May 09, 2010
Our freedom is in our laws. We have the right to impose this on others?

We setup dictators, & supported the overthrow of popular governments, but ignored genocide.

WW2 was won because of our manufacturing and guts.
In Nam, caught in an ambush, we prayed, fired back blindly, called for air support & a corpsman.

When M16s jammed, LAWS were duds, homemade booby traps killed or maimed, any firepower was welcome. In war when technology fails all you have is guts.

Beautiful sights Carpet Bombing & Puff the Magic Dragon. Close air support, resupply, & medivac kept us alive especially at Khe Sanh.

They were terrified, many killed or maimed, so too, us. We cleared areas, then left. It didn't stop them until we left for good, for whatever reason.

Now our enemies are allies. Christian? No money!

Call them rebel, reactionary, guerrilla, terrorist, anarchist, atheist, Nazi, Commie, Fascist, whatever. When government, religion, or media calls them "enemy", you & I are sent to destroy.
ormondotvos
1 / 5 (2) May 09, 2010
12,500 of a $25k grunt weapon? Let me push the calculator button: That's 312 MILLION dollars for the military-industrial complex. Way to go, boys. More citizens making weapons instead of windmills!!!
Thex1138
3.8 / 5 (4) May 10, 2010
Otto1923:

Calculations by some groups have shown that the earth could concievably support as many as 100 billion human beings in a stable ecology


Sorry dude but humans are WAY OVERSTOCKED!
I take it you have not heard of the rubbish vortex zones in the north and south pacific oceans and the southern Atlantic... not to mention the effects on fish stocks and ocean acidity and temperature... pray to your god for that one bud. 100 billion! Are you nuts?
Think about mate!
mosahlah
2.2 / 5 (5) May 10, 2010
Will smart weenies ever figure out that a superior weapon out of the financial reach of terrorists may tilt the balance of power in Afghanistan to the coalition. Has anyone noticed the enemies we face lack an effective airforce? Could it be because we have acheived overwhelming technological superiority or is it because weenies love peace? You can whine all day about how it was a mistake to enter war in the middle-east, but we are there and we will win. You don't have to thank me, just stay out of my way.
Sanescience
2.8 / 5 (4) May 10, 2010
Let us hope that we can sufficiently defeat the forces of extremism so that the region can begin it's own development to become a modern prosperous nation. Not because we hate them or they are against us. But because only a world of modernized prosperous nations can stabilize the worlds population. Otherwise these poor backward nations are going to over populate the planet to the point of breaking.
Husky
5 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
i agree usa got by far unparallelled airforce, but unfortunately its pretty expensive to maintain/send a fleet of bombers to take out 3/4 men, maybe smaller drones with these digital soft target munitions will make it cost effective . Usa got no problem with technology at all , but problem with exceeded creditcard limit to afford long lasting dragging stuff like this, naturally they could get it over with more cheaply and just nuke the whole country, but then usa would officially have to stop talking about freedom, liberty and human rights and join the evil axis club...
marjon
2.3 / 5 (6) May 10, 2010
Otto1923:

Calculations by some groups have shown that the earth could concievably support as many as 100 billion human beings in a stable ecology


Sorry dude but humans are WAY OVERSTOCKED!
I take it you have not heard of the rubbish vortex zones in the north and south pacific oceans and the southern Atlantic... not to mention the effects on fish stocks and ocean acidity and temperature... pray to your god for that one bud. 100 billion! Are you nuts?
Think about mate!

Do you volunteer to remove yourself from the stock?
otto1923
not rated yet May 10, 2010
Calculations by some groups have shown that the earth could concievably support as many as 100 billion human beings in a stable ecology at living standards equal or greater than the U.S. today.
Gowron: Perhaps. But not today. …

Investment inevitably begins the cycle: growth which always exceeds the capacity to accomodate it; competition for resources which causes inflation and decay; disruption, rebellion, and war as the infrastructure collapses; and rebirth as the Remnants arise from the ashes. Only western civilization offers a way to avoid this ruinous equation, by giving people convincing alternatives to the most rewarding activity life can offer- reproduction.
Do you volunteer to remove yourself from the stock?
But this is exactly what our religions were created to do- enable the people to suffer, sacrifice, fight, and die on que. Onward Xian soldiers, marching as to war. Gott mit Uns.
otto1923
not rated yet May 10, 2010
Martyrdom is the greatest of virtues- to gives your life in service to the being who gave it to you. All you need to do is wait for the call, a vision, a desperate plea from the Side whom god favors.

Why is it that, just when the current generation thinks it is finally virtuous, rational, and civil enough to be beyond the need and desire to make war, that there always arises an Enemy that it absolutely has to fight? Every generation believes this; and every generation nevertheless finds itself faced with the choice either to fight or be annihilated.

This smells like Subterfuge of the Highest Sort to me.
danman5000
not rated yet May 10, 2010
the microchip-embedded round tracks the distance it has traveled by the number of times it rotates.

What happens if the round hits a power line or tree? Or what if the soldier tries to fire it into a window, aiming for the back of the room, but the round nicks the windowsill, causing it to tumble and explode well before its intended destination? Rotation doesn't seem like the best idea to me.
danman5000
not rated yet May 10, 2010
Or, as a better example since a room is small and enclosed, what if the soldier wants to fire over a wall to hit a target a few streets over, but nicks the top of the wall and the round tumbles and explodes over the first (possibly populated) street instead?
Arkaleus
5 / 5 (1) May 10, 2010
Otto1923:

Your love for the lie of power presented to this generation has been bold in testimony lately.

You put a lot of faith in the rulers of this current system, but you've never really justified your belief that their way will be successful instead of collapsing into animal warfare.

You seem delighted at the vicious nature of the rulers of this decaying era, though you completely ignore their flaws and errors in planning.

I've watched you apologize for the powers of this era and champion the false promise of scientific dictatorship. But the truth is they are thugs, thieves, and common gangsters who will rely on the same systems of oppression and crime that have destroyed far greater empires than our own.

No matter how cleverly concealed this dynasty of rulers is, their offspring and inheritors will degenerate and fall. Their methods are death, not life, and that's where their methods will lead them.
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 10, 2010
the microchip-embedded round tracks the distance it has traveled by the number of times it rotates.

What happens if the round hits a power line or tree? Or what if the soldier tries to fire it into a window, aiming for the back of the room, but the round nicks the windowsill, causing it to tumble and explode well before its intended destination? Rotation doesn't seem like the best idea to me.

Why won't the bad guys drive out the civilians so they wont' be harmed by any fighting, or better yet, move out into unpopulated areas so they may be more easily defeated and suffer fewer civilian casualties?
They won't because that is precisely what the bad guys want, as it feeds the useful idiots.
Quantum_Conundrum
1 / 5 (3) May 10, 2010


Sorry dude but humans are WAY OVERSTOCKED!
I take it you have not heard of the rubbish vortex zones in the north and south pacific oceans and the southern Atlantic... not to mention the effects on fish stocks and ocean acidity and temperature... pray to your god for that one bud. 100 billion! Are you nuts?


Most garbage, particularly plastic containers, is due to completely wasteful concept of economics and consumption. In the past, nobody would EVER simply throw away a perfectly useable glass, metal, or clay pot, jar, or bottle. Only in the past few decades has massive waste of "temporary" one-use containers with a lifespan of 500 years been observed.

The perfectly easy and rational solution is for everyone to buy one plastic bottle and use water filters. Soda should be banned anyway. We are all addicted to it, and it causes pancreatic cancer and contributes to ADHD.

Once you quit wasting space age containers, a significant portion of landfills would disappear.
otto1923
3 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
Otto1923:

Your love for the lie of power presented to this generation has been bold in testimony lately.
What makes you think I love it? A forensic pathologist studies serial killers- does that make him one? I look at the evidence of history, and this is the only explanation I can find. But I must admit, its damned impressive.

Your lie of power: that if you surrender it, the Enemy will do the same.
You put a lot of faith in the rulers of this current system, but you've never really justified your belief that their way will be successful instead of collapsing into animal warfare.
Ive shared lots of this evidence here with you all. Alternate explanations for major events which are consistant and rational. Everywhere I look, this is what I see. Order underneath apparent chaos. You cant see it because your opinions are formed as these events occur. They must be tempered with the Bigger Picture, the examination of preparation and results, and alternatives.
otto1923
3 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
You seem delighted at the vicious nature of the rulers of this decaying era, though you completely ignore their flaws and errors in planning.
You seem delighted in the idea that authority figures are foul creatures. This usually stems from resentment towards ones father. These 'flaws' and 'errors, more often than not, and from a sufficient perspective, appear Planned to produce the most favorable Outcomes.
I've watched you apologize for the powers of this era and champion the false promise of scientific dictatorship. But the truth is they are thugs, thieves, and common gangsters who will rely on the same systems of oppression and crime that have destroyed far greater empires than our own.
I have apologized for no one. Ive offered an Explanation. I believe we are only here today because Leaders long ago, in desperation, decided to save humanity from itself. We should be grateful.
labtvonline
1 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
This seems like it could be a game changer in tactics of ground warfare. I've been watching the HBO series The Pacific and I know that a weapon like the XM25 would have save countless American lives but... at the same time would have ended many more Japanese lives. I would like to see more military weapons in the future that can conduct the necessities of war without killing. I know this sounds unrealistic but the military already have the technologies to make this happen! I just saw a video the other day about how the military has developed a system called "Active Denial" that has a "less-than-lethal" payload. Actually it really does no damage at all but it just feel like you skin is momentarily on fire. Check it out if you have a minute. I think it could be a very promising turn in the future of warfare.

http://www.ndep.us/Hot-Stuff
otto1923
3 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
No matter how cleverly concealed this dynasty of rulers is, their offspring and inheritors will degenerate and fall. Their methods are death, not life, and that's where their methods will lead them.
You struggle for eloquence in order to improve your argument? Again, you lack Perspective; I see evidence for this 'dynasty' in the contest between Alexander and the Persians, in the formation of the Greek civilization, described in the bible in very exact and thorough terms, and present even the tales of gilgamesh, the book of enoch, the pronouncements of zeus. If im right this 'dynasty' IS all of history. A system of Rule based on a common Philosophy. They are certainly deceivers and thugs and liars: its what works. Read Platos Republic and
Macchiavelli.
"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." -orwell
-And They also have the best chance of providing a future for our species. Theyre not evil dude, Theyre just very, very pragmatic.
LuckyBrandon
not rated yet May 10, 2010
tanor-freedom CANNOT be within our laws...the concept of a law negates the possibility of freedom, no matter how you slice it or dice it. the only true freedom is anarchist freedom, which is not a possibility unless all people remain moral. Once that can occur, only then could true freedom occur.
Sorry, and a bad example here, but if the road is empty, the speed limit is 70, and i decide to go 90 because there's nobody else on the road...I could go to jail for this...that is NOT freedom.

Definition of law (1 of 2): "a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority "

Definition of freedom: "1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another"

As you can see, the definition of freedom speaks of actions that are not contrained or coerced by others...law is that contraint...
PinkElephant
not rated yet May 10, 2010
I also find it odd that they use rotation to time the trajectory.

How does a spinning round count its own revolutions? Are they using some kind of a 2-axis MEMS gyroscope device to track the rotation? Seems like that would be a pretty fragile thing, considering it has to survive getting fired out of a gun. Why didn't they just use a simple solid-state timer circuit instead, or does the muzzle velocity vary THAT much?
LuckyBrandon
not rated yet May 10, 2010
i would think muzzle velocity with the same caliber is pretty much equal, but keep in mind, we are not talking about a rifle round here, we are talking about an upgrade for the M203 grenade launcher...much much different than a rifle round...

oh and apologies guys for the problematic S key earlier (mistype constrained/constraint multiple times...i hate typos)
Tan0r5
5 / 5 (1) May 10, 2010
Freedom, like religion, and patriotism may be defined to suit any needs.
For us the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and Bill of Rights are the "Charters of Freedom" of the United States.
The "Constitution is the supreme law of the United States of America", the Wikipedia.
When we forget these charters and at times we have, we forget what makes the USA different from the rest of the world.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
When we forget these charters and at times we have, we forget what makes the USA different from the rest of the world.
Quite apropos, considering they're now seriously discussing altering Miranda laws for U.S. citizen "terror suspects", following the failed Times Square bombing.

And who calls for this in the shrillest and loudest manner? Why, none other than our dear right-wingers, the self-appointed guardians of the Dead Constitution.

The more we "fight for our freedoms", the more oppressive our state becomes...
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 10, 2010
When we forget these charters and at times we have, we forget what makes the USA different from the rest of the world.
Quite apropos, considering they're now seriously discussing altering Miranda laws for U.S. citizen "terror suspects", following the failed Times Square bombing.

And who calls for this in the shrillest and loudest manner? Why, none other than our dear right-wingers, the self-appointed guardians of the Dead Constitution.

The more we "fight for our freedoms", the more oppressive our state becomes...

'Liberals' like you refuse to acknowledge the USA has enemies who would kill you, YOU, if they had the chance. Attacks are called 'man made disasters' and the word 'terrorist' is banned.
The first job of the state is to protect its citizens and it is failing on all fronts with pinkos like you cheering them on.
And Pinkie, how do you feel about Mexicans in LA fomenting revolution to take CA back?
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
'Liberals' like you refuse to acknowledge the USA has enemies who would kill you, YOU, if they had the chance.
Better to die at the hands of our enemies, than give birth to our own version of the Stasi. If we succumb to your fear-mongering and turn ourselves into a police state, then we are our own worst enemies and "USA" is a failed experiment.
The first job of the state is to protect its citizens
The first job of the state is to take care of its internal problems, before wasting trillions of non-existent dollars on extravagant and futile attempts at global power projection. Get back to me when you figure out the meaning of the word "blowback."
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 10, 2010
Get back to me when you figure out the meaning of the word "blowback."

I think CA is in the middle of an illegal alien and socialist blowback.
Before Miranda rights can be read, an arrest has to be made. How many criminals are roaming free in CA because no one will arrest them?
The first job of the state is to take care of its internal problems,

No, it is to defend its citizens from attack from enemies foreign and domestic.
It is the responsibility of the citizens to take care of internal problems.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
I think CA is in the middle of an illegal alien and socialist blowback.
Is that so? I though it was the free trade, industry self-regulation, and personal responsibility blowback. As in people always being for the rule of law, unless they can illicitly save a few bucks by hiring undocumented laborers under the table.

If you think it's all the social services that attract migrant labor, you're badly mistaken. Illegal workers come here to earn $$$, and send it back to their families south of the border.

So the whole "illegal alien" situation is just a case of classic free markets: supply vs. demand (for slave labor.) But the right doesn't want to acknowledge this, since it would imply a need to clamp down on illegal EMPLOYERS. If you use the services of a house cleaner or a landscape worker, or run a "small business", that would in all probability include, as you say, you, YOU. So the right continues their hypocritical charade: castigate the exploited, not the exploiters.
otto1923
5 / 5 (1) May 10, 2010
Better to die at the hands of our enemies, than give birth to our own version of the Stasi.
Better still to arrange things beforehand so that your 'enemies' and you are on the same side, fighting for the same Cause. The mafia does it all the time- they don't want to go to court unless the judge is in their pocket. Just remember, somebodys got to be the bad guy and sometimes, unfortunately, it has to be you. So you play the part like Hollywood hulk hogan, you take the blame, and the World goes on because you've done your Duty. ¡Viva Reconquista!
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (1) May 10, 2010
No, it is to defend its citizens from attack from enemies foreign and domestic.
How does that justify massive U.S. bases in Saudi Arabia. How does that justify engineering a coup in Iran, and imposition of the Shah. How does that justify building up and funding Saddam. How does that justify inventing the Jihadist movement in Afghanistan. How does that justify unconditional support for Israel. Do tell.

The state is supposed to defend itself, but it isn't supposed to actively create and foment its own enemies.
It is the responsibility of the citizens to take care of internal problems.

"government of the people, by the people, for the people." That's the description of our form of government, according to Lincoln. The "Party of Lincoln" may disagree, of course...
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 10, 2010
If you recall, the USSR, a communist state, was an enemy of the USA with nuclear weapons. Iran shared a border with the USSR and was becoming a socialist state in the 50s. (http://books.goog...e)Don't forget all the oil in the middle east was coveted by the USSR and hot wars were in process around the world against communists in SE Asia.
Israel is the ONLY representative democracy in the region. Why NOT support Israel? (Unless you support Islamic theocracy?)
Our form of government is federalism. A limited federal government is responsible for external relations, common defense and arbitration between member states. It is the responsibility, guaranteed by the 10th amendment, for individual states to take care of their internal problems.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
If you recall, there hasn't been a USSR for nearly 20 years now. Iran had a democratic government, civil liberties, and free press, which the CIA exploited to engineer a coup and install a tyrant. Don't forget all the oil in the middle east is coveted by the USA, "and hot wars are in process around the world" because of it. Iran used to be a representative democracy in the region, but I suppose we only care about such things when they're Jewish(?) Let them usurp land, build illegal settlements, and perpetually stir up hatred in the region while we fund them with our taxpayer dollars: why NOT? We do support Islamic theocracy, or else we wouldn't be so chummy with Saudi Arabia. Our entire economy is geared to support it. Arbitration isn't all the federal government is for; any sort of interstate commerce or coordination falls under its purview (which includes transportation, standards, environmental regulation, law enforcement, etc.)
JayK
5 / 5 (1) May 10, 2010
marjon only follows the conservative remake of world history, evidently.
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) May 10, 2010
Israel is the ONLY representative democracy in the region. Why NOT support Israel?
Aside from the geopolitically idiotic policy of UNCONDITIONAL support, I was specifically asking how such a mission relates to your stated mission of the government "to defend its citizens from attack from enemies foreign and domestic." Where's there a mention of international nation-building or nation-boosting, in our Dead Constitution?

Oh, also do either Greece or Turkey belong in "the region", or does "the region" happen to be roughly circumscribed by the currently claimed borders of Israel?

And really, how "representative" is a democracy that enshrines one particular religion and ethnicity as its state identity, to the exclusion of the burgeoning majority within its self-proclaimed borders (when one counts the so-called "occupied territories")?
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 11, 2010
The USSR was actively pursuing the spread of communism in 1952 and Iran socialized its oil industry.
It is unfortunate how so many don't want to understand how the Cold War led to the situation we have today.
Defeating the USSR was the primary objective and now we are dealing with the fallout. Just as DPRK was part of the fallout of WWII and Yugoslavia and the fallout from WW1.
If the USSR had not fallen, how likely would Saddam have invaded Kuwait?
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 11, 2010
Oh, also do either Greece or Turkey belong in "the region", or does "the region" happen to be roughly circumscribed by the currently claimed borders of Israel?
Israel is not being attacked by Greece or Turkey.
marjon
1 / 5 (4) May 11, 2010
Clinton gazed inward leading to the 9/11/01 attack.
Obama is ignoring threats as well:

"Russia says may build nuclear power plant in Syria"
"Israel says N.Korea shipping WMDs to Syria'
'White House Task Force Seeks Fight on Childhood Obesity"
Fat kids are more important the WMDs.
Nartoon
1 / 5 (1) May 15, 2010
Over half of all people who have ever lived are alive today!
kevinrtrs
1 / 5 (1) May 17, 2010
But because only a world of modernized prosperous nations can stabilize the worlds population

Just a thought - "you will always have the poor with you".