A 'New Dimension' at the LHC

Jul 22, 2008 By Laura Mgrdichian feature

(PhysOrg.com) -- Later this year, the world's largest and most powerful particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, Switzerland, will begin operating, sending beams of protons hurling around circular tracks in opposite directions at nearly light-speed and then forcing them to collide, producing a spray of energy and matter.

Scientists' hopes are high for the LHC, with many yearning that its detectors will record evidence of undiscovered theorized particles and new physics. In that respect, a group of physicists considers a new possible discovery: a new dimension. At the LHC, the proton collisions will be powerful enough to probe incredibly minute size scales, perhaps minute enough to open a tiny new dimension.

"While the LHC may uncover what appears to be an extra dimension, it could really be a hologram of some more complicated physics theory," said physicist Veronica Sanz of Boston Univeristy and York University in Ontario, Canada, to PhysOrg.com. Sanz is one of three physicists involved in the study.

By "hologram," Sanz and her colleagues aren't referring to a flat image that appears three dimensional. Rather, in the context of particle physics, holography imagines an extra dimension to handle the calculations of strongly interacting systems, like LHC collisions.

Added physicist Adam Martin of Yale University, "LHC could discover a new type of strong interactions wildly different from the strong nuclear force we already know from the Standard Model."

The strong nuclear force is one of the four fundamental physics forces and is what keeps atomic nuclei together, mediated by gluons. The other three forces are the electromagnetic, gravitational, and weak forces. The strong, weak, and EM forces, and the particles that experience them, are all described by a sweeping physics theory known as the Standard Model (gravity is ignored because it is so weak by comparison).

But the Standard Model isn't quite complete: One particle, the proposed "Higgs boson," has yet to be discovered. It is the missing piece of the Standard Model and perhaps the "Holy Grail" of LHC results. If found, it could tell scientists about the origins of mass itself, and why matter can be made of elementary particles that are essentially massless. The Higgs, they think, is responsible for assigning masses to those elementary particles.

But the Higgs may not exist, or may not be found. And if not, Standard Model calculations become unwieldy, as only with the Higgs do the calculations make sense. But a new physical dimension, if only an imaginary one, could make such calculations easier.

"For all we know, extra dimensions may be nature's way of computing the masses of particles," says the study's corresponding scientist, Yale University physicist Johannes Hirn.

This research is published in the May 23, 2008, online edition of the Journal of High Energy Physics.

Citation: Johannes Hirn et al JHEP 05 (2008) 084

Copyright 2008 PhysOrg.com.
All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed in whole or part without the express written permission of PhysOrg.com.

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googleplex
3 / 5 (3) Jul 22, 2008
Reaching IMHO.
LHC is only 7 times more powerful than existing colliders (as I have read on this web site somewhere).
Whilst I hope that it would solve big questions I am guessing that it will only extend our existing view of particle physics a bit deeper to the Higgs.
thales
3 / 5 (3) Jul 22, 2008
I guess we'll find out soon enough. The very first beam will be tested August 9th and 10th.
Mercury_01
2.2 / 5 (9) Jul 22, 2008
This is crazy stuff. You know, I like the analog with the solar particles not causing macro black holes on our atmosphere, but it just occured to me: the big difference here is that we are focusing billions of these collisions per second in one tiny spot. Anybody see stephen king's latest movie, "the Mist"? Very spooky.
nasgod
1.6 / 5 (7) Jul 22, 2008
Maybe this is the way to make a blackhole. Starts small and then expands. This is spooky :-)
podizzle
3.8 / 5 (6) Jul 22, 2008
Maybe this is the way to make a blackhole. Starts small and then expands. This is spooky :-)


from what i know a black hole will just dissipate if it doesn't have enough mass when created. I am excited at the thought of proving other dimensions as I feel it will further research into quantum computing and consciousness studies.
googleplex
4.5 / 5 (6) Jul 22, 2008
This is crazy stuff. You know, I like the analog with the solar particles not causing macro black holes on our atmosphere, but it just occured to me: the big difference here is that we are focusing billions of these collisions per second in one tiny spot. Anybody see stephen king's latest movie, "the Mist"? Very spooky.


What you are referring to is luminosity of the proton beam. Sure the energy is high but they hit the earth every day. It is the luminosity that is perhaps "un-natural on earth". One hopes that both energy and luminosity are increased gradually. That way if there is a criticality it is approached slowly and carefully.
Physicists have gone through this before with nuclear reactions where they increase the nuclear cross section gradually and can abort at any moment. (Ok there were some slip ups but no accidentally nuclear bombs). Keep in mind that they are not trying to create a bomb here and only conducting nano scale experiments.
In my mind the biggest problem will be ironing out the bugs in such a vast project in order to get it working. I expect the Aug 10th date will slip like all the others.
makotech222
1.8 / 5 (5) Jul 22, 2008
good stuff, just please dont blow up the earth, or rather implode :P lol
JTankers
1 / 5 (2) Jul 22, 2008
Do you know what you get when you mix high energy colliders with Professor Otto Rosslers charged micro black hole theory?

Answer: a golf ball

http://translate....24668213
NewDimension
1 / 5 (4) Jul 22, 2008
Don't know what all this fuzz is about.
Creating a new dimension sound somehow cool - and depending on the energy level of this new dimension it will either expand, collapse or getting this dimension to a different energy level.
If you fuse 2 Hydrogen to a Helium the amount of energy released is big. If you fuse like they plan at the LHC we find out what happens.
Anyway if it goes wrong I think it will be a fast and unpainful end for this planets misery. If a apple drops out of the dimension they trying to create well hope they have detectors for this.
I support trying it ;) The survivors can do the math later what happened.
NewDimension
1 / 5 (3) Jul 22, 2008
btw. anyway someone has some math on the energy release of a imploding dimension?
WorldSci
1 / 5 (2) Jul 23, 2008
For more information on Colliders and Neutrinos, do remember to check out this book, scheduled for release in August.

http://www.worlds...912.html

Thanks:-)
superhuman
1.8 / 5 (8) Jul 23, 2008
I'm hoping it will deal a killing blow to the monster terrorizing physics - string theory
thales
1.8 / 5 (5) Jul 23, 2008
btw. anyway someone has some math on the energy release of a imploding dimension?


1/dimension * mc^2 = E^n

where n = a whole lot
Mercury_01
1.2 / 5 (5) Jul 23, 2008
Speaking of monsters, hopefully any hell beast that falls out of the black hole wont be strong enough to open the collision chamber and escape.
Modernmystic
1.7 / 5 (6) Jul 23, 2008
If they don't find a Higgs/extra dimension/or some other cool revelation about the fundamental make up of the universe I say we sue them for all that tax money back :P
Mercury_01
2.8 / 5 (9) Jul 23, 2008
Im going to wait to sue them for mental anguish when the black hole eats half my house and bigfoot tries to pull me through the event horizon and I have to cut off his arm with a toenail clipper.
thales
1 / 5 (3) Jul 23, 2008
Or this might happen:

http://en.wikiped...toryline
NewDimension
1 / 5 (3) Jul 23, 2008
Yeah guess Thales has the good formula for that ..
Are they doing it on purpose or just get rid of the unused Tax money?
Kleine Ursache - Grosse Wirkung.
So to get this straight they try to colide to Einstein-Bose klumps to find out if a simulation is as real as reality.
There cool ;)
Reminds me of a child touching a hot plate to see(feel) if it is realy hot.
googleplex
2.6 / 5 (5) Jul 24, 2008
If they don't find a Higgs/extra dimension/or some other cool revelation about the fundamental make up of the universe I say we sue them for all that tax money back :P

It is a gravy train without doubt.
But there is good science in it. Surely LHC is a better use of money than invading Iraq for WMDs->Sadam->Force Democracey, or bailing out some bank that the Feds forgot to regulate properly.
If they find nothing then they will still ask for more funding to increase the power. If they find something then it also justifies the 10 year upgrade project. Heads I win, tails you lose.
Mercury_01
1.8 / 5 (6) Jul 24, 2008
Or heads and tails at both ends and six greusome demonic faces on one hairy 12 legged spider escaping the collision chamber to rip you asunder.
NewDimension
3.8 / 5 (4) Jul 25, 2008
I admit I really like the LHC.
The first time mankind build a machine and does not know what happens when the button is pushed.
The real outcome may depend on quantumfluctuations anyway. And if they blow up the planet .. who cares.
NewDimension
3 / 5 (4) Jul 25, 2008
I forgot to mention the collisions cannot be compared with natural occurring events - one is the high amount of particles colliding at the high speed the other is the low temperature.
brant
1 / 5 (2) Jul 26, 2008
When you cut up a pie, what do you get?
Smaller pieces of pie!!

They will find smaller pieces of electrons and protons! Not some new particle. And not cherries...

Particles are an energy resonance...
WolfAtTheDoor
3 / 5 (2) Jul 26, 2008
I'm getting giddy about it. Fire it up!

Im going to wait to sue them for mental anguish when the black hole eats half my house and bigfoot tries to pull me through the event horizon and I have to cut off his arm with a toenail clipper.


lol!
Pharago
4 / 5 (2) Jul 27, 2008
new dimension? rflmao, cmon please, wait for some results and let the ppl set up the gear properly before starting to make wild asumptions, higgs particle may or may not be found, just wait mkay?
OckhamsRazor
2 / 5 (2) Jul 27, 2008
They say if you can imagine it that it's possible. Now that technology is getting closer to achieving the impossible, I think we're all silently hoping for a new dimension regardless of the consequences. Most of us here will be long dead by the time half of the greatest questions of science are answered, so I'd like to see this one!

One thing that does concern me, knowing the way human minds work. If they recorded the tiniest flicker of a black hole, do you suppose they'd work on it to create larger, and longer sustained ones?
googleplex
2 / 5 (2) Jul 29, 2008
One thing that does concern me, knowing the way human minds work. If they recorded the tiniest flicker of a black hole, do you suppose they'd work on it to create larger, and longer sustained ones?

That would be concerning. The risks clearly outweigh the advantages. I read that in theory we have the technology to build a black hole bomb but no one has. Every weapon ever made has been used!
holmstar
1 / 5 (1) Jul 29, 2008
I read that in theory we have the technology to build a black hole bomb but no one has. Every weapon ever made has been used!


Don't be so naive. Do you really belive everything you read? This is the highest energy particle collider that man has ever built, and no one is sure that it will be able to produce even microscopic black holes. To produce a stable black hole, (one that wouldn't evaporate nearly instantaneously) you would need to pump millions of tons of mass into it in the tiny fraction of a fraction of a second before it evaporated. Think Mt everest.