'Cloud' over Mars leaves scientists baffled

February 16, 2015
Mars with the plume at limb identified within the yellow circle, and at right, augmented views of the changing plume morphology in images taken by W. Jaeschke and D. Parker on March 21, 2012. On the background an area on Terra Cimmeria on Mars (longitude 207 and latitude -32) where the plume formed (Image source NOAA). Credit: Grupo Ciencias Planetarias (GCP) - UPV/EHU

Plumes seen reaching high above the surface of Mars are causing a stir among scientists studying the atmosphere on the Red Planet.

On two separate occasions in March and April 2012, amateur astronomers reported definite plume-like features developing on the planet.

The plumes were seen rising to altitudes of over 250 km above the same region of Mars on both occasions. By comparison, similar features seen in the past have not exceeded 100 km.

"At about 250 km, the division between the atmosphere and outer space is very thin, so the reported plumes are extremely unexpected," says Agustin Sanchez-Lavega of the Universidad del País Vasco in Spain, lead author of the paper reporting the results in the journal Nature.

The features developed in less than 10 hours, covering an area of up to 1000 x 500 km, and remained visible for around 10 days, changing their structure from day to day.

None of the spacecraft orbiting Mars saw the features because of their viewing geometries and illumination conditions at the time.

However, checking archived Hubble Space Telescope images taken between 1995 and 1999 and of databases of amateur images spanning 2001 to 2014 revealed occasional clouds at the limb of Mars, albeit usually only up to 100 km in altitude.

But one set of Hubble images from 17 May 1997 revealed an abnormally high plume, similar to that spotted by the amateur astronomers in 2012.

Observations of a mysterious plume-like feature (marked with yellow arrow) at the limb of the Red Planet on 20 March 2012. The observation was made by astronomer W. Jaeschke. The image is shown with the north pole towards the bottom and the south pole to the top. Credit: Copyright W. Jaeschke

Scientists are now working on determining the nature and cause of the plumes by using the Hubble data in combination with the images taken by amateurs.

"One idea we've discussed is that the features are caused by a reflective cloud of water-ice, carbon dioxide-ice or dust particles, but this would require exceptional deviations from standard atmospheric circulation models to explain cloud formations at such high altitudes," says Agustin.

'Cloud' over Mars leaves scientists baffled
A curious plume-like feature was observed on Mars on 17 May 1997 by the Hubble Space Telescope. It is similar to the features detected by amateur astronomers in 2012, although appeared in a different location. Credit: JPL/NASA/STScI

"Another idea is that they are related to an auroral emission, and indeed auroras have been previously observed at these locations, linked to a known region on the surface where there is a large anomaly in the crustal magnetic field," adds Antonio Garcia Munoz, a research fellow at ESA's ESTEC and co-author of the study.

The jury is still out on the nature and genesis of these curious high-altitude martian plumes. Further insights should be possible following the arrival of ESA's ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter at the Red Planet, scheduled for launch in 2016.

Explore further: Coronal mass ejections at Mars

More information: An extremely high-altitude plume seen at Mars' morning terminator, Nature, (2015) DOI: 10.1038/nature14162

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Returners
2.1 / 5 (15) Feb 16, 2015
Very interesting and curious. Has the phenomenon been caught on other spectra besides visible?

It grows with practically explosive force, which suggests something geologic/geochemical, astronomical, or electrical (aurora or lightning).

I'm guessing deposition or craters from anything geologic or astronomical would be spotted by all the orbiters eventually, so if it is geologic would need to come from an existing vent, but should still be detectable.

That pretty well leaves lightning and auroras like they said.

You can see how that's a problem for an atmosphere if you're getting lightning storms or aurora effects that powerful. It would clearly effect the hydrogen balance of the planet.

I'm assuming electrical charge is somehow levitating the material that high into the atmospere.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (24) Feb 16, 2015
-and whatever Lrrkrrr chooses to assume must be so because he draws on a vast (but nonexistent) wealth of knowledge coupled with a mature and reasoned (but imaginary) perspective on how nature works.

Explain please what is 'hydrogen balance' regarding Mars and what it has to do with the above article?
Pawl
5 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2015
It could be the discharge from the cannon the Martians are using to send projectiles to Earth (apologies to H.G. Wells).
Returners
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 16, 2015
Casper:

If it was geologic or a meteor there would be some sort of scarring for an event of that magnitude. The orbiters would see a crater or deposition of some sort correlating to the plumes' origins.

That leaves Weather and the Sun.

It's not cyclonic, so something like a hurricane or tornado doesn't explain it.
DimitrisPoulos
1 / 5 (1) Feb 16, 2015
not sure they would see any crater from a collision with a meteorite or some volcano activity
Mayday
1.4 / 5 (11) Feb 16, 2015
I'll bite. I'm surprised that this story has stayed up so long! I definitely don't expect to see it anywhere in the mainstream. That said, I imagine it would take an enormous amount of kinetic energy to move that material to those altitudes. And given the size, it suggests rather explosive events. So, it could be volcanic/geologic, cosmic(meteor or comet, very unlikely), nuclear detonations or accidents(aka Fukushima). Whatever your poison, something very unusual and extremely energetic seems to be happening on Mars. And I don't expect to be told what it is. Our spacecraft couldn't see it? Give me a large break. Can any of them track radiological events? Just sayin.'
movementiseternal
Feb 16, 2015
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Returners
1.2 / 5 (18) Feb 16, 2015
College age kids don't know how to use a ruler or tape measure. Have to take a ruler from a 24 year old and show him how to "1" the end of it because the "0" is worn off.

Seriously, what am I to expect from scientists who are coming from a generation who can't even read a ruler?

My deceased, high school drop-out dad knew more math and physics than some people that graduate from universities.

They can't even follow instructions to read a ruler, much less think about for themselves.

Doesn't know the difference between inches, centimeters and millimeters...College Sophomore.

Tell that to build something with his hands and he'd be lost.

I can visualize it, do the math for a cut in my head to eighth of an inch, or work in millimeters and get it to tenth of a millimeter in my head, mark it, cut it, build it...

I didn't take shop in high school because my dad was a carpenter.

Uneducated Carpenters are better at math than the damn architects and mathematicians.
Uncle Ira
3.9 / 5 (22) Feb 16, 2015
College age kids don't

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, something about carpenters, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

Uneducated Carpenters are better at math than the damn architects and mathematicians.


@ Returnering-Skippy. This is article about about Mars clouds. There is not anything in him about architects or mathematicians. It's about time for another little resting-up stay in Mandeville, your mental conditions are getting a little worse every day.
Shootist
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 16, 2015
College age kids don't

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, something about carpenters, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

Uneducated Carpenters are better at math than the damn architects and mathematicians.


@ Returnering-Skippy. This is article about about Mars clouds. There is not anything in him about architects or mathematicians. It's about time for another little resting-up stay in Mandeville, your mental conditions are getting a little worse every day.


Mandeville? No, Angola, ftw.
Returners
1 / 5 (14) Feb 16, 2015
@ Returnering-Skippy. This is article about about Mars clouds. There is not anything in him about architects or mathematicians. It's about time for another little resting-up stay in Mandeville, your mental conditions are getting a little worse every day.


I have no need of such acomodations.

However, I might take the liberty of signing up for some study on Neuropathy. They had one for "diabetic nerve pain" on television recruiting subjects, but I don't have diabetes. Maybe I should have taken part in the study anyway though.

Hemachromotosis is the latest diagnosis. Don't know if it's true yet, because they have to test for the genes. It's a mutation that causes the body to absorb too much iron. Doctor had me give blood, standard treatment, supposed to reduce the iron count in the blood, but the pain actually went up after giving blood.

Neuropathy isn't a primary symptom, but it is a secondary symptom of some of the primaries.
Returners
1 / 5 (12) Feb 16, 2015
Anyway, Gilligan, you missed the point of an example to demonstrate a difficulty with modern science: People simply don't know enough about things they are supposed to know, so how can they theorize about things unknown?

On the illness:

I might ask my neurologist to do some kind of test for demylenating diseases (in general) since it appears most of the known cases are ruled out.

They thought it might be calcium, ruled that out because calcium was only slightly elevated.
Maybe copper/Wilson's disease? Ruled that out via tests and MRI..
Iron? Well, it was high, so they start treatment for that and are going to test for the gene mutations to confirm.
As I understand, Wilsons can be demylenating and produce brain lesions. They did MRI and found no lesions, though my brain seems to have a little more development on one side than the other, the neurologist said that I was normal to better than average.
Returners
1 / 5 (13) Feb 16, 2015
Too much "Information" too little "Improvisation".

"Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth" seems to apply both to the Spiritual as well as the mechanical.
Returners
1 / 5 (13) Feb 16, 2015
After finding out that excess iron could cause impotence and hypogonadism (don't have that problem), I am on a regiment of Vitamin D3(deficient, but helps regulate calcium), pain meds, blood pressure medicine, anti-depressants, Fish Liver Oil for Omega 3, and I guess my personal favorite is a penis enhancement pill...preventive medicine just in case the fella is suffering any damage from the unknown illness.

What next? Rabbits' feet and Castor Oil?

Man, this sucks.
Modulus64
3.7 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2015
Someone has activated the Turbidium reactor.
sirchick
5 / 5 (13) Feb 16, 2015
I'll bite. I'm surprised that this story has stayed up so long! I definitely don't expect to see it anywhere in the mainstream.


Its on BBC news http://www.bbc.co...31491805 can it get more mainstream if you tried?
heythere
4.7 / 5 (12) Feb 16, 2015
Hey you all need to shut up with your off-topic stuff please
Returners
1.3 / 5 (14) Feb 16, 2015
Hey you all need to shut up with your off-topic stuff please


Rabbit trails sometimes lead to droppings, and sometimes lead to lunch.
LariAnn
3.5 / 5 (8) Feb 16, 2015
Those plumes seem to be characteristic of spice-mining activities - perhaps a prospecting ship destined for Arrakis got lost in a space-time warp and ended up on Mars instead?
whisperin_pines
5 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2015
It's Charlie Brown's friend Pig Pen.
rthompsonpuy
5 / 5 (18) Feb 16, 2015
We all understand (at least I hope that we do) that true experts do not generally jump to immediate conclusions just people's apparent need for answers and explanations.

Why is it that "we need to evaluate this" always comes across in articles as "Scientists are Baffled!" (or amazed, shocked, puzzled, astounded, or any other word that implies that they are completely inept at their jobs?

If they make a guess and they are wrong, the media will waste no time saying that because an off-the-cuff response wasn't 100% correct an expert obviously knows nothing. But then today's media doesn't seem to understand the need to wait for all of the facts, so that probably shouldn't actually surprise me. (Or shock, astound, or amaze me either)
jediknight190501
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2015
OMG! We're polluting Mars! It must be exhaust from the rovers on the surface . . .
baudrunner
2.1 / 5 (11) Feb 16, 2015
Maybe..

..those exhaust plumes are just more evidence in support of what is now a solar system-wide warming of another rocky planet, Mars. They are gas vents, could even be CO and/or CO2 vents, including oxygen and water vapor, or even methane. Maybe the Indian Mars Orbiter with its atmospheric testing package could give us a report on the atmosphere around the area of the plumes.
Bongstar420
1.2 / 5 (6) Feb 16, 2015
The planet still apparently has magnetism. It seems a volcano is the best candidate.

I'll bite. I'm surprised that this story has stayed up so long! I definitely don't expect to see it anywhere in the mainstream. That said, I imagine it would take an enormous amount of kinetic energy to move that material to those altitudes. And given the size, it suggests rather explosive events. So, it could be volcanic/geologic, cosmic(meteor or comet, very unlikely), nuclear detonations or accidents(aka Fukushima). Whatever your poison, something very unusual and extremely energetic seems to be happening on Mars. And I don't expect to be told what it is. Our spacecraft couldn't see it? Give me a large break. Can any of them track radiological events? Just sayin.'


Bongstar420
1.6 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2015
The electrical/aural phenomena is secondary to a magnetic field which is precluded by volcanism. There is not enough atmosphere for static electrical effects.

Very interesting and curious. Has the phenomenon been caught on other spectra besides visible?

It grows with practically explosive force, which suggests something geologic/geochemical, astronomical, or electrical (aurora or lightning).

I'm guessing deposition or craters from anything geologic or astronomical would be spotted by all the orbiters eventually, so if it is geologic would need to come from an existing vent, but should still be detectable.

That pretty well leaves lightning and auroras like they said.

You can see how that's a problem for an atmosphere if you're getting lightning storms or aurora effects that powerful. It would clearly effect the hydrogen balance of the planet.

I'm assuming electrical charge is somehow levitating the material that high into the atmospere.

ninmiciocc_cat
5 / 5 (11) Feb 16, 2015
The storm burst upon us six years ago now. As Mars approached opposition, Lavelle of Java set the wires of the astronomical exchange palpitating with the amazing intelligence of a huge outbreak of incandescent gas upon the planet. It had occurred towards midnight of the twelfth; and the spectroscope, to which he had at once resorted, indicated a mass of flaming gas, chiefly hydrogen, moving with an enormous velocity towards this earth. This jet of fire had become invisible about a quarter past twelve. He compared it to a colossal puff of flame suddenly and violently squirted out of the planet, "as flaming gases rushed out of a gun."
From "The War of the Worlds", by H.G. Wells, 1898; Book One Chapter One, "The Eve of the War" (If you've read the book then you know what happens next . . .)
Jeffhans1
1 / 5 (5) Feb 16, 2015
When looking for craters to explain the energy transfer, don't forget to look at the opposite side of the planet.
big_hairy_jimbo
1 / 5 (4) Feb 16, 2015
Baudrunner has my vote on this. More like a gas geyser I suspect. A volcano could also do this, but wouldn't there be more visible evidence, like what voyager spotted on IO??
Protoplasmix
4.6 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2015
Rabbit trails sometimes lead to droppings, and sometimes lead to lunch.
So that's what you're out to, eh?... silly rabbit tracker :)
- - -

Further insights should be possible following the arrival of ESA's ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter at the Red Planet, scheduled for launch in 2016.
Awesome, very much looking forward to that; the more eyes and instruments, the better.

For folks who are too impatient (like me), some further insights may possibly be had in advance via MAVEN
HeidiHoNeighbor
2.6 / 5 (9) Feb 16, 2015
If only NASA explored other planets with humans instead of Toys R Us robots, we might be able to find out what's happening.
Mimath224
3 / 5 (2) Feb 16, 2015
The storm burst upon us six years ago now. As Mars approached opposition, Lavelle of Java set the wires of the astronomical exchange palpitating with the amazing intelligence of a huge outbreak of incandescent gas upon the planet. It had occurred towards midnight of the twelfth; and the spectroscope, to which he had at once resorted, indicated a mass of flaming gas, chiefly hydrogen, moving with an enormous velocity towards this earth. This jet of fire had become invisible about a quarter past twelve. He compared it to a colossal puff of flame suddenly and violently squirted out of the planet, "as flaming gases rushed out of a gun."
From "The War of the Worlds", by H.G. Wells, 1898; Book One Chapter One, "The Eve of the War" (If you've read the book then you know what happens next . . .)

Music and narration by R. Burton? Naa, you can't mean that!
Mimath224
1 / 5 (4) Feb 16, 2015
Seriously though, '...The plumes were seen rising to altitudes of over 250 km above the same region of Mars on both occasions. By comparison, similar features seen in the past have not exceeded 100 km...'
That's 2.5 times higher than previous and therefore could be much more powerful. And to remain for 10 days would seem to imply activity spreading over time rather than a single blast.
cantdrive85
1.9 / 5 (12) Feb 16, 2015
"Another idea is that they are related to an auroral emission, and indeed auroras have been previously observed at these locations, linked to a known region on the surface where there is a large anomaly in the crustal magnetic field,


Another idea? It's really the only idea that doesn't require a "mysterious dark" something or other to explain it.

Shootist
5 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2015
When looking for craters to explain the energy transfer, don't forget to look at the opposite side of the planet.


Ridiculous. Total nonsense. Neither Hellas nor Utopia produced any antipodal effects and they are two of the largest impact basins in the Solar System..
mreda14
4 / 5 (4) Feb 17, 2015
This plume is clearly a native smoke sign used by native Indian in the S.W United state. This plume clearly say: YANKEE GO HOME
mreda14
3 / 5 (2) Feb 17, 2015
Mars is famous for its large, planet-wide dust storms. Mars has an atmosphere which is much thinner than the atmosphere on Earth, but which still creates winds. When these winds pick up the fine, dry particles of dust on Mars, a dust storm can occur. The famous dust storms start or is initiated by creating a plume.
Kedas
1 / 5 (1) Feb 17, 2015
Just an impact, they are lucky nobody was there (yet).
alfie_null
4.4 / 5 (9) Feb 17, 2015
If only NASA explored other planets with humans instead of Toys R Us robots, we might be able to find out what's happening.

Care to elaborate on which planetary candidates you have in mind? How long were you thinking of for mission duration? How hard would it be to extend the mission? Would you land them on the planet? Were you planning on returning your humans to Earth at the end of the mission? How much time were you planning to spend getting your humans to those planets? What would they do during that time? As space is a pretty hazardous place, how much effort would you put into ensuring their wellbeing?

All told, how much more do you think it would cost, in both dollars and lives? And, oh yes, how much better science would it buy us? Even if we had a manned satellite orbiting Mars, it's not like we could have simply them take a drive over to that location to check it out.
antialias_physorg
4.6 / 5 (14) Feb 17, 2015
If only NASA explored other planets with humans instead of Toys R Us robots, we might be able to find out what's happening.

Well, if the US swapped the defense budget for the NASA budget then certainly it could. Though I'm not sure how much better science you'd get. After all: All humans can do on another planet is walk around in big, inflated plastic suits, collect samples, and put them in analysis machines.

...which is pretty much what the robots do for a fraction of the cost.
It's not like if you land people on Mars they suddenly can go hiking for thousands of miles or start to climb down into crevasses/up mountains like in cheap SciFi movies.
Returners
1 / 5 (4) Feb 17, 2015
Only problem I see with the Aurora theory is that the event lasted 10 days over the same region, but the planet rotates, so the energy wouldn't have been continuous (dark side at night)...so what keeps the "storm" going through the 12.5 hour Martian dark side?

Thin atmosphere, so maybe charge from the CME builds up in the dust on the surface? We know there are weird forms of lightning on Earth, like ball lightnings and ground-to-cloud lightning, so I guess a reverse charge lightning can happen on Mars too.

I'm still assuming the energy comes from the Sun, but a simple Aurora doesn't seem to explain it in one easy step. There's something more complex, like a chain reaction, happening.
Returners
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 17, 2015
It's not like if you land people on Mars they suddenly can go hiking for thousands of miles or start to climb down into crevasses/up mountains like in cheap SciFi movies.


People don't realize how complex science missions are even on the Earth itself. It's still a major ordeal to bring people to some locations on Earth.

To do real "paleontogist/Geologist" science at Earth mission quality you'd need decades worth of infrastructure development in a colony so you can safely move people and equipment around, and learn where mineral resources (ores) might be located to start developing mining and foundries on-site, so you can make tools and housing without spending an entire nations' annual budge on supply missions.

It takes a hard group of people who are willing to do back-breaking labor with their bare hands and power tools to set up a colony...even on Earth, much less another planet.

It's not like one actress and three random guys go to another planet.
cantdrive85
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 17, 2015
Only problem I see with the Aurora theory is that the event lasted 10 days over the same region, but the planet rotates, so the energy wouldn't have been continuous (dark side at night)...so what keeps the "storm" going through the 12.5 hour Martian dark side?

Thin atmosphere, so maybe charge from the CME builds up in the dust on the surface? We know there are weird forms of lightning on Earth, like ball lightnings and ground-to-cloud lightning, so I guess a reverse charge lightning can happen on Mars too.

I'm still assuming the energy comes from the Sun, but a simple Aurora doesn't seem to explain it in one easy step. There's something more complex, like a chain reaction, happening.

Auroras aren't "simple" events, they are created by a complex interaction between a charged body (Mars) and the Sol's charged plasma environment. They involve electric Birkeland currents which could easily induce a charge on the matter involved.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 17, 2015
I can imagine I can realize I don't need no education my dad was a carpenter and I am an exquisite suite of illness which everybody is just dying to hear about
So retard you didn't answer the question. WHAT does 'hydrogen balance' have to do with the article above? You just throw that in to demonstrate how knowledgable you are about everything that matters?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (6) Feb 17, 2015
Oops
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 17, 2015
Well, if the US swapped the defense budget for the NASA budget then certainly it could
But then we would soon be overrun by people who wanted to chop your head off. And then nobody would get to explore much of anything now would they?
Though I'm not sure how much better science you'd get. After all: All humans can do on another planet is walk around in big, inflated plastic suits, collect samples, and put them in analysis machines

...which is pretty much what the robots do for a fraction of the cost
According to a quote I should've bookmarked and have to paraphrase, humans can do in 2 hours what it takes rovers 2 weeks to accomplish.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (9) Feb 17, 2015
Here's an actual study analyzing human vs rover potentialities, written by experts who would be genuinely embarrassed to be caught guessing about these sorts of things.
https://books.goo...4Q6AEwBg

-Especially when they knew that these studies were readily available on the Internet.
Returners
1 / 5 (9) Feb 17, 2015
But then we would soon be overrun by people who wanted to chop your head off. And then nobody would get to explore much of anything now would they?


Unfortunately, our Supreme Court interprets the first amendment so that the word "Religion" applies to any belief system at all. So we can't have a government official come out and say that Islam is fundamentally a warped belief system and is the source of all the cults and splinter cell terror groups in the middle east. Everyone knows this, but the government can't admit it in a legal capacity or the person who says so will get kicked out of office.

Well, technically the constitution doesn't say the President can't make an executive order. It just say Congress can't make a law prohibiting it.

The "War on Terror" is fundamentally a war between the aggression of Islam and the defending non-Muslim, especially Christian or Jew, but including anyone else.
Returners
1.8 / 5 (10) Feb 17, 2015
I find it quite telling that the monsters behead the men, but keep the women to sell as sex slaves, showing the true motivation of the male Islamist as sexual perversion and forcible rape.

If there is a literal Hell, these people deserve to go there more than pretty much anyone I can think of...maybe Hitler and Genghis Khan will be beside them in the worst place possible.

Teh Coptic Christians need to be told to fight to the death, even with a pocket knife, because these bastards murder or rape anyone they capture anyway. Nothing is gained by surrendering.
Returners
1.5 / 5 (8) Feb 17, 2015
Further, how are we supposed to fight them without becoming as barbaric as they are, since they keep themselves surrounded by unarmed women sex slave hostages?

It's shear madness.
Returners
1.7 / 5 (11) Feb 17, 2015
How is it that the Supreme Court or a Federal District Court can put temporary bans (or remove bans) regarding things like gay marriage or prayer in schools, but they can't come out and announce a moratorium on all Islamic writings until further notice?

Calling Islam "Evil" is not "discrimination".

Discrimination is when you make a judgement based on prejudice.

Wisdom is when you make a judgement based on factual evidence.

Fact is Islam keeps producing terror groups hell-bent on killing anyone and everyone else, year after year, decade after decade, and even century after century. And it's not just a minor fringe group. The terror organizations keep getting bigger. Who feeds and arms a band of 40,000 to 50,000 men?

The U.S. has 7 persons in logistics in non-combat roles for every 1 combatant that was in Iraq of Afghanistan. Who are the 7 to 1 behind the scenes supporting these 40k to 50k murderers?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) Feb 17, 2015
Hey retard. WHAT DOES 'HYDROGEN BALANCE' HAVE TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE??
Captain Stumpy
3.8 / 5 (10) Feb 17, 2015
Well, if the US swapped the defense budget for the NASA budget then certainly it could
But then we would soon be overrun by people who wanted to chop your head off. And then nobody would get to explore much of anything now would they?
personally, i would NOT want to swap the military and NASA budgets
BUT
i WOULD love to see NASA doubled to getting at least twice what it is getting now...
at LEAST twice as much funding out of taxes...
Heck, i might even decide to start paying taxes again to help out!
:-)

WHAT DOES 'HYDROGEN BALANCE' HAVE TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE??
really good question!

I am hoping it shows up before they close the article from comments....
but it doesn't seem like this is likely to happen, does it?
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 17, 2015
But then we would soon be overrun by people who wanted to chop your head off. And then nobody would get to explore much of anything now would they?

Hmmm..looks from Cap'ns post that you are still trying to reply to mine, Otto.

There's this spiffy 'ignore'-feature, baby - you know I don't see your stuff (ever wondered why you never get any votes from me? Sure as hell isn't because you write great posts).
It's flattering an' all that you feel you need to impress me by writing stuff I can't see but you must realize by now that you're really typing for naught.

Does the 10th repetition of that fact get to you? I swear, it's like talking to a 5 year old.
antigoracle
1 / 5 (3) Feb 17, 2015
big_hairy_jimbo
not rated yet Feb 18, 2015
Not sure why people down voted you Returners but I gave you 5 for all posts regarding the 'monsters'. Not exactly on topic though for this thread!!!
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (7) Feb 19, 2015
baby - you know I don't see your stuff
I know the answer to that one - you want to maintain the illusion that whatever you post must be knowledgable,informed, and well-reasoned. The only way you can do this is by ignoring my posts.
(ever wondered why you never get any votes from me? Sure as hell isn't because you write great posts)
Naw Youve cultivated your high rating by not attacking others or downrating them. No guts no glory.
It's flattering an' all that you feel you need to impress me by writing stuff I can't see but you must realize by now that you're really typing for naught
Im typing for all those who can't stand lazy posturers. My reward is in exposing your lazy posturing for all who care to read, which is easy to do. It encourages more people to research for themselves. I am thus performing a community service which is reward in itself.

Doesn't matter whether you choose to defend yourself or not, which wouldn't be possible in any case.
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (10) Feb 19, 2015
Im typing for all those who can't stand lazy posturers.
@otto
C'mon Otto... this is not entirely true
you are attacking someone for personal reasons otherwise you would be attacking:

Antigorical
Ubavontuba
RealityCheck
JoeBlue
CantDrive85
Hannes_Alfven
ren82
JVK
reset
Delerious_Neuron
Zephir (and all his socks)
Water_Prophet AKA Alche aka etcetcetc
ConfoundedSociety
eachus

Considering all of the above post ridiculous claims easily refuted by a simple Google search, but you leave them alone, then this is more a vendetta because of a personal reason

now, i can understand leaving the loony movementiseternal alone...

but the rest in the list above repeatedly support known pseudoscience and you simply let them post outlandish claims with no problems at all

why not just get back to hard-hitting attacks on the idiots with easily researched stupidity like in the list above?
Or Zeph's sock army?

antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 19, 2015
Leave him be.
I'm not sure he's even aware that when he tries his yapping routine it's as if verkle were to post a criticism. It has, if anything, the opposite effect of what he intends.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Feb 19, 2015
@otto
C'mon Otto... this is not entirely true
you are attacking someone for personal reasons
First off let me suggest that you let the erudite pseudointellectuals here defend themselves. You really think they need your help?

But I also reserve the right to choose my targets. AA is especially egregious in foisting an informed attitude while at the same time posting easily disproved nonsense.

Go on - try it. Check the next few things he posts that dont look quite right. Or just let me do it - Im better at it than you.
I'm not sure he's even aware that when he tries his yapping routine
-This from the person who thinks there is no N2 on mars or that rovers make better geologists than geologists or that undersea cables arent used to transmit power to shore etcetcetc? I wish our profile page let us keep a list - youd have a long and embarrassing one indeed.
RealityCheck
1.6 / 5 (5) Feb 21, 2015
@Strumpy.
@otto
C'mon Otto... this is not entirely true
you are attacking someone for personal reasons otherwise you would be attacking:

Antigorical
Ubavontuba
RealityCheck
JoeBlue
CantDrive85
Hannes_Alfven
ren82
JVK
reset
Delerious_Neuron
Zephir (and all his socks)
Water_Prophet AKA Alche aka etcetcetc
ConfoundedSociety
eachus

Considering all of the above post ridiculous claims easily refuted by a simple Google search,
You STILL trying to con readers with your indiscriminate, personally motivated 'hate lists' based on your ego-tripping irrelevance?

It's obvious to genuine members (ie, everyone not in your 'recruited gang' of bot-voting trolls) that I do not belong on your above 'list' (except for your own crazy personal reasons having nothing to do with reality or science).

You had to apologize for lying about me, but keep spamming your indiscriminate personal rants all over and lying about me. And you pretend not to be the 'personal' troll. Hypocrite.
Captain Stumpy
3.7 / 5 (6) Feb 21, 2015
But I also reserve the right to choose my targets.
@Otto
ok
you think he is horrible, but you let the above troll continue

sorry
i don't buy it
especially after: http://phys.org/n...les.html
so you will let an idiot post thousands of times with absolutely no evidence
then claim he is not talking because he
had WITHDRAWN from DETAILED discussions
more than 1000 posts and still no evidence of 8 flaws with 4 of them "fatal" but you choose to argue with someone because they are willing to speculate about science and they don't post 100% accurate info every time

again, i refer you back to that list
are you saying that no one else on that list actually deserves to be refuted more than AA_P?
seriously?
even considering, like i said, most arguments they make are refuted with a simple search?
REALLY?

WTF?

Sorry, i see that as the height of hypocrisy
NOT someone "performing a community service which is reward in itself"
RealityCheck
2 / 5 (4) Feb 21, 2015
@Stumpy. The reason a the time of BICEP2 was "risk of being plagiarized", not 'time'. Can't you get anything straight for once in your miserable life-as-a-troll mentality? Snap out of it, Caps! Just apologize for YOUR atrocious behaviour and leave well alone; else you will again be the hypocrite here. Be a 'grownup', just apologize to everyone and hen start afresh without all your 'recruited gang' of bot-voters and uncomprehending trolls who bot-vote in less than 30 SECONDS!

And you haven't been fair ON THE POINTS RAISED by cd etc ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL SCIENTIFIC MERITS. You and others have dismissed them 'wholesale' without discriminating between valid and invalid aspects. Not good! Just apologize and move on a better man/scientist, Stumpy. Go on. :)
Uncle Ira
3 / 5 (6) Feb 21, 2015
@ Really-Skippy. How you are Cher? Yeah, I'm still fine and dandy, thanks.

The reason a the time of BICEP2 was "risk of being plagiarized"


What was they going to steal? The eight mistakes and errors? Why would somebody want to steal that? Just curious me.
RealityCheck
1.6 / 5 (5) Feb 21, 2015
@Ira.
@ Really-Skippy...

The reason a the time of BICEP2 was "risk of being plagiarized"


What was they going to steal? The eight mistakes and errors? Why would somebody want to steal that? Just curious me.
Finally a sensible question. Makes you one up on Stumpy and saposjoint! Wow, what's the world coming to when the bot-voting idiot can pose better discussion points/questions than the Stumpy and saposjoint trolls? Maybe they should go take lessons from that village idiot; it would be an improvement!

Oh, and to answer your question, Ira, it was any attempted DETAILED EXPLANATIONS which may have been 'plagiarized'; as it would have involved many of the underlying novel aspects of my Complete ToE mechanistic/conceptual/maths content in order to make those detailed explanations at time of BICEP2 caution.

PS: Good question, Ira. Well done. You may soon not need to do bot-voting in order to make your mark as relevant to science and humanity discourse. :)
MandoZink
5 / 5 (6) Feb 21, 2015
Why is it that "we need to evaluate this" always comes across in articles as "Scientists are Baffled!" (or amazed, shocked, puzzled, astounded, or any other word that implies that they are completely inept at their jobs?


I completely agree! I was late in reading this article (death in family), and made the same frustrating observation. They may as well say "totally bewildered, utterly confused, completely mystified and at a total loss to explain". At least that is how I often feel when I read a mainstream science news reporter's interpretation of science.

"Intrigued" would be a much more appropriate term to express the reaction of scientists..

I do admit, I used to be "baffled" at how they could hire such inept writers. I am currently "intrigued" that they continue to do so in this day and age.
MandoZink
5 / 5 (2) Feb 21, 2015
It would be great to see a prompt follow-up announcement that the ESA's ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter has tagged this location for investigation. What the orbiter might possibly scan for and what on-board equipment they might use would be interesting.
cantdrive85
1 / 5 (4) Feb 21, 2015
Why is it that "we need to evaluate this" always comes across in articles as "Scientists are Baffled!" (or amazed, shocked, puzzled, astounded, or any other word that implies that they are completely inept at their jobs?


Because that is much closer to the truth, ineptitude to the nth degree. Scientists have models, hypotheses, and physics to follow, when phenomena happen that do not conform to this belief system it creates shock and awe. This is just one more of an endless supply of surprises which don't conform, and it implies that their cosmology is incorrect. In short, they are inept at describing reality.
Captain Stumpy
4.3 / 5 (6) Feb 22, 2015
The reason a the time of BICEP2 was "risk of being plagiarized", not 'time'
@RC
perhaps you need a lesson in literacy?
pla•gia•rize (plÄ�ˈjÉ�-rÄ�zˌ)
v. To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own
v. To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another)
v. To put forth as original to oneself the ideas or words of another [Wordnik]

how is it a risk of plagiarization if you are pointing out specific flaws in someone else's STUDY?
that is pointing out the physics, or even pointing out a mistake, not plagiarizing
ROTFLMFAO
THAT is the problem with trolls, they don't know WTF they are talking about
NICE of you to keep pointing that out, though!
THANKS

OT
BAITING/TROLLING
reported
Captain Stumpy
4.2 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2015
endless supply of surprises which don't conform, and it implies that their cosmology is incorrect. In short, they are inept at describing reality.
@cd
but the track record for the eu is far, far worse than anything else, especially that of mainstream astrophysicists

so that means that, if you consider mainstream astro's to have a lousy record, then the eu has a real cesspool of positives

that is not surprising considering that:
1- your astrophysics is being done by engineers making money off the stupid and gullible
2- the scientifically illiterate and lazy incapable of looking up real physics tend to flock to eu and its ready lies

this is more tha proven by your inability to comprehend the physics here: http://phys.org/n...ggs.html
while Thompson destroys your religion, you are oblivious as to why

when is the eu engineering group going to publicly debate modern astro's?
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (5) Feb 22, 2015
@Stumpy. Give it up, mate. All you got left is childish "Yes you are but what am I" retorts and hair-splitting semantics.

Doesn't it occur to you that any detailed explanations re the BICEP2 flaws would have involved much backgrounding from novel complete ToE? And any such attempted detailed explanations would have inevitably divulged directly/indirectly some of he most novel aspects which others might have deduced, from implicit allusions, if not stolen outright from any explicit details presented?

Stumpy, the history of science teaches us that plagiarism, and arguments over 'priority', have mired and wasted much time, money and energy of the individuals involved in protracted acrimonious etc claims and counter claims over decades. I don't have time or energy for such things, so I prudently minimize the likelihood of getting involved in such stressful and counter-productive situations in the first place....by limiting what I divulge of my Complete ToE before publishing. Ok?
sirchick
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
Volcanic Geyser maybe =/ ? Though that seems quite a large altitude.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 23, 2015
Doesn't it occur to you that any detailed explanations re the BICEP2 flaws would have involved much backgrounding from novel complete ToE?
@sam-i-am
NO, you complete and utter moron, because i don't want explanations of your pseudoscience ToE, i want you to point to the SPECIFICS

it is not a semantics argument
it is proving you have no evidence, can't comprehend simple english and are a liar as well as incompetent in physics

You said you SAW it, and thus it is a matter of producing the already published "flaws" and "fatal flaws" at that point FROM THE STUDY, not your pseudoscientific extrapolations nor your earthling-stupid wanna-be ToE jam

that is your delusion... you can keep it to yourself. i don't want it
I want specifics from the BICEP2 STUDY

i already know you will not (ever) post it
it would mean exposing yourself as a fraud
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (4) Feb 23, 2015
@Sam-i-amTROLL
semantics
n. Linguistics The study or science of meaning in language.
n. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics. [wordnik]

my argument is not semantics
nor is it even related to it

You saw, written in a published study, a series of "fatal flaws" and pronounced this publicly, for which i have requested you point out said "fatal flaws" published in said study (BICEP2)

Thus, it is a matter of you simply reproducing said "fatal flaws"

you could have simply said "do your due diligence" or "be wary", but you did not
you made a specific claim AND attached a number, thus the claim should be represented with equivalent (to your number) representations which can be reviewed and proven "fatal"

that is not plagiarism, semantics nor anything other than science and substantiating your claim, which you STILL have not done

over 1500 posts now
FastEddy
1 / 5 (2) Feb 23, 2015
This "cloud" caused by Climate Change / Global Warming On Mars!

And yes, all of the other inner planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn are having Climate Changes.

And, yes, the Sun is the ultimate causation of all planetary Climate Change.

So what happened to Jupiter's 400 year old Great Spot? ... Climate Change ...
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (3) Feb 23, 2015
@Stumpy. When will you apologize and move on from your shrill hysterical, emotional personal attacks/lies about BICEP2, based on your self-serving 'denial' of the record/reality?

I merely cautioned you to LOOK for YOURSELF for the flaws I saw for MYSELF (not 'read' anywhere).

Some of the flaws were obvious according to KNOWN science already (many mainstreamers helpfully outlined all those for YOU afterwards in the articles/news etc). So I didn't NEED to explain anything about those flaws, since they were obvious to KNOWN science. YOU didn't bother doing checking for yourself, so you have yourself to blame on the known science aspects you missed.

Some FURTHER flaws were not mentioned/covered by mainstreamers at all (even NOW), simply because they and their explanation was NOT 'known science'. THESE FURTHER flaws I would not elaborate/explain in detail, for reasons given.

Why keep 'missing' and misrepresenting the situation explained at the time? Apologize & move on, Cap.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2015
self-serving 'denial' of the record/reality?
you mean like the fact that these "exact same arguments" (almost verbatim) got you banned from Sciforums for baiting/trolling and lying (here as UNDEFINED: http://www.scifor...?page=68]http://www.scifor...?page=68[/url] )

which prompted you to try to enter with a sock, but because you were being given a second chance (as undefined) from being banned the first time (for -surprise surprise- the exact same tactics: http://www.scifor...page=246 ) they were watching out for you and wouldn't let you enter as a sock, prompting you to try to fob that off as some "experiment" lie
http://www.scifor...?page=67
http://www.scifor...?page=68]http://www.scifor...?page=68[/url]

This experiment only proves that the moderation of Sciforums effectively blocked a spamming, trolling, baiting idiot liar from continuing to violate their site and their rules

you want rules for everyone else BUT you

the proof is against you, TROLL

reported
again
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2015
@Stumpy. Give it up. Experiments proved mod-troll gang's abuses of power/position by colluding in bait-and-ban tactics to ban me. You link to the 'ban list', but it does NOT represent the full story, does it? You claim to "follow the evidence", but conveniently 'omit' fuller evidence 'inconvenient' to the lying/half-truth 'versions' you STILL try to con readers with. Sad.

Why keep doing that, when your tactics have already been exposed, proven fraudulent, driven by mod-troll gangmember malice towards me (who exposed/proved the abuses). Futile.

Face it, Stumpy, you joined a mod-troll gang which had me on a 'hit list' because I exposed their anti-science abuses. You were misled; then became COMPLICIT in misleading others for your 'gang recruiting' motives. Surely you now realize your MISTAKE in joining that 'gang'; and that I'm not 'just another troll/crank'; because I've been objective and in the right; and you've been 'personal' and in the wrong.

Apologize, move on, Cap.
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2015
PS @Stumpy. Did you find the thread where I taught Da Schneib about he plasmoid processes occurring in he sun's subsurface which may explain mass ejection processes when solar physics scientists still could not do so?

So, Stumpy, follow THAT evidence, of where you were mindlessly cheerleading Da Schneib in his insults and denials (based in his own ignorance)....until he had to admit I was correct on the science and in original thinking. You went quiet; but now 'forget' to recognize and admit that evidence too, while still making up your lying/half-truth 'versions' to 'support' your continuing untenable personal attacks.

Apologize, move on, Stumpy.
Captain Stumpy
5 / 5 (3) Feb 24, 2015
imagine that- you still cannot present evidence
Did you find the thread where I taught Da Schneib
ROTFLMFAO
can't find something that doesn't exist, sam-i-am

https://www.googl...af4331c2

OT
BAITING
TROLLING
reported
RealityCheck
1 / 5 (3) Feb 25, 2015
@Stumpy.
@rc, you can't find something that does not exist
You really are full of it. Your 'convenient' denials, lies, 'omission' when "following the evidence" tactic is there for all to see beyond shadow of doubt: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

Note Da Schneib (post dated Oct 10, 2014) admitting:
However, you are correct; I was wrong, there may be plasmoids.
That admission came after much insults and other mistakes (including re BICEP2 fiasco) from Da Schneib (and others) about me and my scientific knowledge/work. He and they were so "certain" they were right; and kept insulting me even though they were patently wrong.

I also explained that PINCH of plasmoids produce the necessary high-strength mag-field/compression for fusion.

I even had to educate him re various sources of positrons from Earth's Magnetic Field/charged particles collisions/interactions.

Stumpy, you lied to the forum again.

Apologize, move on.

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