NSA collected thousands of US communications (Update 2)

Aug 21, 2013 by Kimberly Dozier
This June 6, 213 file photo shows the sign outside the National Security Agency (NSA) campus in Fort Meade, Md. The National Security Agency declassified three secret U.S. court opinions Wednesday, Aug. 21, 2013, showing how it scooped up as many as 56,000 emails and other communications by Americans with no connection to terrorism annually over three years, how it revealed the error to the court and changed how it gathered Internet communications. (AP Photo/Patrick Semansky, File)

The National Security Agency declassified three secret court opinions Wednesday showing how in one of its surveillance programs it scooped up as many as 56,000 emails and other communications by Americans not connected to terrorism annually over three years, revealed the error to the court—which ruled its actions unconstitutional—and then fixed the problem.

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper authorized the release, part of which Obama administration officials acknowledged Wednesday was prodded by a 2011 lawsuit filed by an Internet civil liberties activist group.

The court opinions show that when the NSA reported its inadvertent gathering of American-based Internet traffic to the court in September 2011, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ordered the agency to find ways to limit what it collects and how long it keeps it.

In an 85-page declassified FISA court ruling from October 2011, U.S. District Judge James D. Bates rebuked government lawyers for repeatedly misrepresenting the operations of the NSA's surveillance programs.

"This court is troubled that the government's revelations regarding NSA's acquisition of Internet transactions mark the third instance in less than three years in which the government has disclosed a substantial misrepresentation regarding the scope of a major collection program," Bates wrote in a footnoted passage that had portions heavily blacked out in the government's disclosure.

The NSA had moved to revise its Internet surveillance in an effort to separate out domestic data from its foreign targeted metadata—which includes email addresses and subject lines. But in his October 2011 ruling, Bates ruled that the government's "upstream" collection of data—taken from internal U.S. data sources—was unconstitutional.

Three senior U.S. intelligence officials said Wednesday that national security officials realized the extent of the NSA's inadvertent collection of Americans' data from fiber optic cables in September 2011. One of the officials said the problem became apparent during internal discussions between NSA and Justice Department officials about the program's technical operation.

"They were having a discussion and a light bulb went on," the official said.

The problem, according to the officials, was that the top secret Internet-sweeping operation, which was targeting metadata contained in the emails of foreign users, was also amassing thousands of emails that were bundled up with the targeted materials. Because many web mail services use such bundled transmissions, the official said, it was impossible to collect the targeted materials without also sweeping up data from innocent domestic U.S. users.

The officials did not explain why they did not prepare for that possibility when the surveillance program was created and why they discovered it only after the program was well under way.

Officials said that when they realized they had an American communication, the communication was destroyed. But it was not clear how they determined to whom an email belonged and whether any NSA analyst had actually read the content of the email. The officials said the bulk of the information was never accessed or analyzed.

As soon as the extent of the problem became clear, the officials said, the Obama administration provided classified briefings to both Senate and House intelligence committees within days. At the same time, officials also informed the FISA court, which later issued the three 2011 rulings released Wednesday—with redactions—as part of the government's latest disclosure of documents.

The officials briefed reporters on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to describe the program publicly.

In this Thursday, Aug. 26, 2004, file photo, Verizon special service technician Mark Rose adjust cables attached to a framework in a Verizon network room at the Main Post Office in New York. Three senior U.S. intelligence officials said Wednesday, Aug. 21, 2013, that the NSA realized that when it was gathering up bundled Internet communications from fiber optic cables, with the cooperation of telecommunications providers like AT&T, that it was often collecting thousands of emails or other Internet transactions by Americans who had no connection to the intended terror target being tracked. (AP Photo/Gregory Bull, File)

The documents were declassified to help the Obama administration explain some of the most recent disclosures made by The Washington Post after it published classified documents provided by former NSA systems analyst Edward Snowden.

One of the intelligence officials briefing reporters said the newly declassified documents should help explain "the reasons why people shouldn't go into a panic over articles they read in the press."

But the FISA court's classified rulings have also been at issue in a two-year-old lawsuit filed against the government by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an Internet civil liberties activist organization. In a decision in June, the FISA court ruled that its authority did not prevent the release of the earlier 2011 opinion.

A senior administration official acknowledged Wednesday that some of the documents released were in response to the lawsuit, while others were released voluntarily. The official insisted on anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the release with a reporter by name.

The release Wednesday of the FISA opinion, two other 2011 rulings and a secret "white paper" on the NSA's surveillance came less than two weeks after a federal judge in Washington gave government lawyers a time extension in order to decide which materials to declassify. The EFF had been pressing for a summary judgment that would have compelled the government to release the secret FISA rulings, and the government's most recent extension expired Wednesday, the day it released the once-secret FISA court rulings.

"This was all released in response to the court's orders," said Mark Rumold, an EFF attorney involved in the litigation.

The documents were posted later in the day on a new website that went live Wednesday afternoon. The front page of the site said it was "created at the direction of the president of the United States (and) provides immediate, ongoing and direct access to factual information related to the lawful foreign surveillance activities carried out by the U.S. intelligence community."

The site is hosted by the private Internet site Tumblr, a trendy blogging service which is particularly popular among teenagers and young adults.

While the NSA is allowed to keep the metadata—the address or phone number and the duration, but not the content, of the communication—of Americans for up to five years, the court ruled that when it gathered up such large packets of information, they included actual emails between American citizens, in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

Bates wrote that the NSA had advised the court that "the volume and nature of the information it had been collecting is fundamentally different than what the court had been led to believe," and went on to say the court must consider "whether targeting and minimization procedures comport with the Fourth Amendment."

For instance, two of the senior intelligence officials said, when an American logged into an email server and looked at the emails in his or her inbox, that screen shot of the emails could be collected, together with Internet transactions by a terrorist suspect being targeted by the NSA—because that suspect's communications were being sent on the same fiber optic cable by the same Internet provider, in a bundled packet of data.

These interceptions of innocent Americans' communications were happening when the NSA accessed Internet information "upstream," meaning off of fiber optic cables or other channels where Internet traffic traverses the U.S. telecommunications system.

The NSA disclosed that it gathers some 250 million internet communications each year, with some 9 percent from these "upstream" channels, amounting to between 20 million to 25 million emails a year. The agency used statistical analysis to estimate that of those, possibly as many as 56,000 Internet communications collected were sent by Americans or persons in the U.S. with no connection to terrorism.

Under court order, the NSA resolved the problem by creating new ways to detect when emails by people within the U.S. were being intercepted, and separated those batches of communications. It also developed new ways to limit how that data could be accessed or used. The agency also agreed to only keep these bundled communications for possible later analysis for a two-year period, instead of the usual five-year retention period.

The agency also, under court order, destroyed all the bundled data gathered between 2008, when the FISA Court first authorized the collection under section 702 of the USA Patriot Act, and 2011 when the new procedures were put in place.

The court signed off on the new procedures.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the White House still contends there is no domestic surveillance program. He said the program is specifically to gather foreign intelligence.

"The reason that we're talking about it right now is because there are very strict compliance standards in place at the NSA that monitor for compliance issues, that tabulate them, that document them and that put in place measures to correct them when they occur," Earnest said.

The disclosures were greeted with cautious optimism by Democratic Sen. Mark Udall, who has sponsored legislation to curb some of the NSA's surveillance and serves on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"I am glad the NSA is taking this step at owning its mistakes, but it is also a sign that we can and must do more to protect innocent Americans with no connection to terrorism from being monitored by our government—whether intentionally or not," Udall said Wednesday. "I will keep fighting to ensure that the NSA is not violating Americans' privacy rights."

Explore further: Study: Social media users shy away from opinions

More information: Documents available at: icontherecord.tumblr.com

3.9 /5 (8 votes)
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210
1.5 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2013
Indeed, proper disclosure and conforming to the rule of law is mandated by the US Constitution and clearly the NSA was/is trying to do that. Trying to say, as many have, that ANY surveillance violates ALL law is like calling a man a Nazis - an illegal activity - just because he Jay-Walks across a neighborhood street - also an illegal activity. Further, try having this kind of open and thorough ongoing disclosure in a nation that operates APT1 and STOLE all the intellectual property of QinetiQ and Nortel while smuggling over 3.78 TRILLION dollars out of its own economy - China. Go complain to China about the comment crew, vanquish the Honkers and THEN talk about how bad NSA is. No better yet, LET the Communist Chinese PROVE why Mandiant's report is false.The USA airs their dirty laundry in public. China, Russia, MAN-UP! Snowden says NSA is bad - many listen to him; I am saying Mandiant is right, China prove them wrong! The NSA must own up so must all others!
-Sergei Magnitsky -oh yeah!
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (15) Aug 21, 2013
NSA collects information for the central banksters, who in turn want to have a complete control grid to find hotspots for further enslavement, theft and loansharking. Until money addiction is seen as a disease instead of a goal, man will continue killing man under the pretense of employment
SteveL
3 / 5 (8) Aug 21, 2013
The NSA has been filtering and collecting electronic communications since before the late 80's when I first heard of it. Certain key words and phrases are scanned for to catch the bad guys talking about bad guy stuff so they can be stopped before they do bad guy things. They could care less about what grandma is cooking for dinner, how much is in your 401k or kochevnik's conspiracy theories.
kochevnik
2 / 5 (16) Aug 21, 2013
The NSA has been filtering and collecting electronic communications since before the late 80's when I first heard of it. Certain key words and phrases are scanned for to catch the bad guys talking about bad guy stuff so they can be stopped before they do bad guy things. They could care less about what grandma is cooking for dinner, how much is in your 401k or kochevnik's conspiracy theories.
Bad guys == anyone not a US fascist

FYI NSA is actively selling and collaborating with other agencies such as the DEA and IRS which contradicts your claim of mere patriotic altruism and noblest intentions on the part of the NSA. Moreover you shit on your constitution like any little Eichman all in the name of bolstering the security state which is what EVERY despotic, totalitarian government does since the time of the Greeks

Moreover you just admitted yourself that the NSA conspiracy theory is conspiracy FACT, you idiot
Telekinetic
2.5 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2013
If this were to have happened in the 1960's, the uproar would have brought, if not an end to the NSA, at least the resignation of the director and the appointment of an overseer to the agency. It's amazing how in forty plus years, the once vocal American youth have turned into the most passive, video-game playing, i-phone obsessed bunch of lemmings. We deserve the police state this country's become.
SteveL
4 / 5 (4) Aug 22, 2013
@kochevnik - Personal insults and name calling,,,, really? But you are correct in that it cannot be a "conspiracy" if we all know about it. As this is a scientific site I suppose "theory" is also incorrect in this context as without reliable facts, "conjecture" would have been a more appropriate word.

The NSA has likely stopped thousands of attacks, saving an uncountable number of lives that you and I will never know about. If one of those attacks had succeeded and had effected any one of our individual lives I have no doubt that we would demand the government to do something about it. There are a lot of people who hate what we stand for, hate our freedoms and hate our success. People always go after the ones they think are on top.

Consider the alternative to being protected. Consider the repeated mass murders like 9-11-2001 being a common occurrence. Personally I'd rather not have that chaos be a reality. The NSA does need to follow the law however and be held accountable.
kochevnik
1.6 / 5 (13) Aug 22, 2013
The NSA has likely stopped thousands of attacks, saving an uncountable number of lives that you and I will never know about.
You just made that up, which is piss poor performance on a science site. Moreover only only 1% of so-called terrorists nabbed by the FBI were real. The FBI is documented in coaxing semi-retarded individuals into brandishing weapons provided by the FBI and then being "caught" or entrapped. Moreover the security services were caught quoting events in Mexico and Canada to bolster their alleged interventions. You quote nothing other than your usual stupid MSM media puffery. Do you prefer whores in general or just for your info sources?
Consider the alternative to being protected.
With protection like yours I would be better off in Yemen. Only thing your government protects is the interests of corporations
Claudius
2.3 / 5 (12) Aug 22, 2013
"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. ... One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me."

1984 George Orwell
Claudius
2.5 / 5 (13) Aug 22, 2013
The NSA has likely stopped thousands of attacks, saving an uncountable number of lives that you and I will never know about.


"What can you do, thought Winston, against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?"

"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it."

1984 George Orwell
Claudius
2.5 / 5 (13) Aug 22, 2013
"Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by 'our' side."

"There is no crime, absolutely none, that cannot be condoned when 'our' side commits it."

Notes on Nationalism George Orwell

Claudius
2.5 / 5 (14) Aug 22, 2013
There are a lot of people who hate what we stand for, hate our freedoms...


Freedoms? What we stand for?

Free to speak? Free to assemble? Not in a "free speech zone", and especially not if you are a whistleblower.
Free to keep and bear arms? Infringed.
Free from unreasonable searches? No longer.
Entitled to speedy and public trial? With a jury? Able to confront witnesses? To have an attorney? Not anymore.
Freedom from cruel and unusual punishment? No longer.

We live in an age in which the right to privacy is no longer recognized by the government. In which any American, at the whim of a president, can be held, tortured, imprisoned for life or even executed without ANY due process of law. You can literally be "disappeared."

What freedoms are you so jealously guarding? The right to TV, sports and beer drinking?
kochevnik
2 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2013
"This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector." - Plato

"...if this Government hits cruelly certain sections of the Italian people, it does not so out of caprice, but from the supreme necessity of national order." - Benito Mussolini

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
H. L. Mencken

https://www.youtu...budnWlh4
210
2.2 / 5 (13) Aug 22, 2013
If this were to have happened in the 1960's, the uproar would have brought, if not an end to the NSA, at least the resignation of the director and the appointment of an overseer to the agency. It's amazing how in forty plus years, the once vocal American youth have turned into the most passive, video-game playing, i-phone obsessed bunch of lemmings. We deserve the police state this country's become.
There was plenty of uproar in the 60's- the young were being KILLED in an ideologically intense war! There is no such KILLING now. There IS A CYBER WAR now. It sees whole nation states funding the more egregious banking fraud, ACH-exploits, extraordinary-cyber IP theft, theft that will decide whose economy can grow the fastest and whose people work for whom! THAT, is worth fighting and killing over and THAT is why we HAD, historically the start of unions.The USA is not a police state, China IS, North Korea their paramour is. Russia's Putin is afraid of a Pussy Riot - DAMN!
210
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2013
"This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector." - Plato

"...if this Government hits cruelly certain sections of the Italian people, it does not so out of caprice, but from the supreme necessity of national order." - Benito Mussolini

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
H. L. Mencken

https://www.youtu...budnWlh4


Great quotes, great quotes...so ...WHAT? If there is NO THREAT, there has been no wrong or harm done and these NSA people are all just faking it and PRETENDING SOMEONE IS HACKING, oh, and they HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO OVERSIGHT, yes, we ARE in harm's way. But, THAT is not what has happened since China placed the Comment Crew, the Honkers, and many others under direct state funding and control. Over 70% of ALL illegal hacking comes from the Asian pacific theatre. There is wrong everywhere, everywhere there are people. The NSA is the USA's Top Gun there IS a fight!
210
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2013
There are a lot of people who hate what we stand for, hate our freedoms...

Freedoms? What we stand for?
Free to speak? Free to assemble? Not in a "free speech zone", and especially not if you are a whistleblower.
Free to keep and bear arms? Infringed.
Free from unreasonable searches? No longer.
Entitled to speedy and public trial? With a jury? Able to confront witnesses? To have an attorney? Not anymore.
Freedom from cruel and unusual punishment? No longer.
We live in an age in which the right to privacy is no longer recognized by the government. In which any American, at the whim of a president, can be held, tortured, imprisoned for life or even executed without ANY due process of law. You can literally be "disappeared."
What freedoms are you so jealously guarding? The right to TV, sports and beer drinking?
Claudius, claudius...MOVE TO CHINA AND PROTEST THEIR ILLEGAL ACTS JUST AS U R DOING HERE, ON THE WEB, FREE AND OPEN. YOU claudius WOULD BE WIPED FROM MEMORY!!!!!
animah
1 / 5 (5) Aug 22, 2013
Dear Ed & Bradley:

You are much more free than before. Because you know more.

What you see is a forward movement.

Did you expect the power to just surrender to a future where they don't matter anymore?

As you know more and more. As you recover what is rightly yours. As you take over the control of your own country. They will fight back. And they will bite and tear down your houses searching for traitors. And they will destroy you, and put you in jails, and kill many of you.

But you will prevail.

Because freedom only moves one way.

You're scared because you're the first ones. There's only darkness ahead. But you shouldn't be, because behind that darkness is the future that will look back and cheer at you as the freedom fighters of this century.

animah
1.4 / 5 (9) Aug 22, 2013
Also, I have changed my mind on guns.

Weapons are for the weak.

Everywhere, every time.
Claudius
2.4 / 5 (14) Aug 23, 2013
MOVE TO CHINA AND PROTEST THEIR ILLEGAL ACTS JUST AS U R DOING HERE, ON THE WEB, FREE AND OPEN. YOU claudius WOULD BE WIPED FROM MEMORY!!!!!


Unbelievable jingoism. By your statements you put yourself in the camp of those who defend tyranny. Quisling. Don't you understand that when one person's rights are violated, all of our rights are?

"On Monday, March 5, Northwestern University School of Law was the location of an extraordinary scene for a free nation. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder presented President Barack Obama's claim that he has the authority to kill any U.S. citizen he considers a threat."

Just how, in a free society, can such a statement be made? When the person who swore to defend the Constitution and ensure the laws are upheld claims the authority to violate the Constitution? In case you haven't figured it out, it is against the Constitution to kill a person without due process of law. It is an illegal act. Pull your head out of the sand and wake up.
animah
1 / 5 (3) Aug 23, 2013
Claudius, claudius...MOVE TO CHINA AND PROTEST THEIR ILLEGAL ACTS JUST AS U R DOING HERE, ON THE WEB, FREE AND OPEN. YOU claudius WOULD BE WIPED FROM MEMOR

Strawman. Assuming Claudius is American, his first concern is with the USA. This should be the same for all of us.

Also you are suggesting that the fact you can protest your Government is enough in itself and therefore one should not exercise that right. That's bad governance, and I would remind you that democracy means protecting the rights of all to speak and have their ideas heard.

As Voltaire said: "I disagree with his ideas, but I will fight to the death for his right to express them".

This brings us back on topic: The NSA's methods are so jarring to millions precisely because they appear to be incompatible with this fundamental requirement of a free society.

These methods make it appear they confuse protecting the Administration with protecting the country. They need to explain, not hide behind secrecy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (5) Aug 24, 2013
If this were to have happened in the 1960's, the uproar would have brought, if not an end to the NSA, at least the resignation of the director and the appointment of an overseer to the agency. It's amazing how in forty plus years, the once vocal American youth have turned into the most passive, video-game playing, i-phone obsessed bunch of lemmings. We deserve the police state this country's become
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." -some Nazi

-Hey claudius somebody has to be in charge. Lucky for you it's the good guys. You know, people who put a soldier on trial for slaughtering innocent afghan civilians andthen throw him in jail rather than giving him a promotion and a vacation home on th Baltic. People who take issue with cultures that condone throwing acid in womans faces because they refuse to cover them up.

Maintaining this sort of freedom is worth surrendering a little of it once in awhile don't you think?
210
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 24, 2013
Claudius, claudius...MOVE TO CHINA AND PROTEST THEIR ILLEGAL ACTS JUST AS U R DOING HERE, ON THE WEB, FREE AND OPEN. YOU claudius WOULD BE WIPED FROM MEMOR

Strawman. Assuming Claudius is American, his first concern is with the USA. This should be the same for all of us.
Also you are suggesting that the fact you can protest your Government is enough in itself and therefore one should not exercise that right. That's bad governance, and I would remind you that democracy means protecting the rights of all to speak and have their ideas heard.
This brings us back on topic: The NSA's methods are so jarring to millions precisely because they appear to be incompatible with this fundamental requirement of a free society.
These methods make it appear they confuse protecting the Administration with protecting the country. They need to explain, not hide behind secrecy.
No, I make NO assumptions, YOU R doing that. There is A WAR, cyber war going on and the NSA is the hired Gun!

210
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 24, 2013
MOVE TO CHINA AND PROTEST THEIR ILLEGAL ACTS JUST AS U R DOING HERE, ON THE WEB, FREE AND OPEN. YOU claudius WOULD BE WIPED FROM MEMORY!!!!!


Unbelievable jingoism. By your statements you put yourself in the camp of those who defend tyranny. Quisling. Don't you understand that when one person's rights are violated, all of our rights are? In case you haven't figured it out, it is against the Constitution to kill a person without due process of law. It is an illegal act. Pull your head out of the sand and wake up.

The ONLY reason you are here discussing any of this is because system of checks and balances over-rides and over-hauls the entire US Government. Mistakes they make, triumphs they achieve, are PUBLICLY scrutinized in exhausting detail. But there IS a war going on. 750,000 cell phones a day are hacked by APT1, whole western firms are being hacked out of existence and the NSA is NOT the one doing that! A real FIGHT is taking place & U R in denial! NSA, go fight!
210
2 / 5 (12) Aug 24, 2013
Also, I have changed my mind on guns.

Weapons are for the weak.

Everywhere, every time.

There is ALWAYS a Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini: ALways a bully and a bandit wrapped up in an idea. And, there must always be someone who will pick up a gun, a badge, and some bullets, and go meet them in the trenches. Yes, that means, some GOOD guys have to get dirty fighting and killing and dying so that people like you, yes YOU, can sit down at their computers and talk about how bad we were for killing human, two-legged. diseases - infections on the face of humanity! Sure, be peace loving and all that, nobody here is demanding aggressive warfare or anything of the sort, but, a new battle field has been carved out of the cyber-geography and SOMEONE has to put up their fists and go knock some heads! Private commerce cannot fight China's APT1 -it is a LARGE PART OF THEIR MASSIVE ARMY! It is time to FIGHT or die, or, make blackmail payments FOREVER!
-WORD to ya muthas
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Aug 24, 2013
But there IS a war going on. 750,000 cell phones a day are hacked by APT1
Perhaps you shouldn't presume your battery powered toy with a five year old operating system attached to the Internet is the best place to keep your data?
whole western firms are being hacked out of existence and the NSA is NOT the one doing that! A real FIGHT is taking place & U R in denial! NSA, go fight!"
Sorry to learn about the struggles of your porn site
zaxxon451
4 / 5 (4) Aug 24, 2013

There is ALWAYS a Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini: ALways a bully and a bandit wrapped up in an idea. And, there must always be someone who will pick up a gun, a badge, and some bullets, and go meet them in the trenches


"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Killing your way to peace is foolhardy, as we are seeing with our country's foreign policy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Aug 26, 2013

There is ALWAYS a Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini: ALways a bully and a bandit wrapped up in an idea. And, there must always be someone who will pick up a gun, a badge, and some bullets, and go meet them in the trenches


"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Killing your way to peace is foolhardy, as we are seeing with our country's foreign policy.
Well loving your way to peace doesnt work very well either does it? Commingling produces overpopulation which produces conflict ie killing.

The religions based on love are the ones which encourage adherents to do little else but procreate, and then to fight about it. Love-based religions make killing a matter of survival.
210
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 26, 2013

There is ALWAYS a Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini: ALways a bully and a bandit wrapped up in an idea. And, there must always be someone who will pick up a gun, a badge, and some bullets, and go meet them in the trenches


"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Killing your way to peace is foolhardy, as we are seeing with our country's foreign policy.

Then, just sit there and let wretched, murdering scum walk all over you. Hitler would STILL be running Germany, Mussolini would have destroyed Ethiopia by now, Stalin, killed more Russians that the plague and Hitler combined! You like quotes, ok.
"It's easier to resist at the beginning than at the end."
Leonardo da Vinci
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence."
Leonardo da Vinci
Sometimes, you have to knock the DAY LIGHTS out of an enemy to allow the light of reason to enter him.NSA keep knockin'
210
2.3 / 5 (8) Aug 26, 2013

There is ALWAYS a Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini: ALways a bully and a bandit wrapped up in an idea. And, there must always be someone who will pick up a gun, a badge, and some bullets, and go meet them in the trenches


"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Killing your way to peace is foolhardy, as we are seeing with our country's foreign policy.
Well loving your way to peace doesnt work very well either does it? Commingling produces overpopulation which produces conflict ie killing.

The religions based on love are the ones which encourage adherents to do little else but procreate, and then to fight about it. Love-based religions make killing a matter of survival.

Religions that espouse LOVE are not talking about SEX. They are talking about Love, the OTHER Love and, it would be great if we lived in a loving world. But we do not.
word-
zaxxon451
1 / 5 (1) Aug 27, 2013
Sometimes, you have to knock the DAY LIGHTS out of an enemy to allow the light of reason to enter him.NSA keep knockin'


I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Aug 27, 2013
religions that espouse love
Ahaahaaa boy are you naive. Sex is entirely about procreation. Your god made it so enjoyable because procreation is so very important.

You need to separate what religions SAY from what they DO. The religions which have survived are the ones which are best at outgrowing their enemies and overrunning them. With this FACT in mind we can examine what religions SAY and figure out how they get their adherents to reproduce at the maximum rate possible.

Allah is love. Buddha is love. Hindus have gods dedicated to loving. Jesus says love your enemies but xians are every bit as skilled at killing them off as any other. Why is that?

The answer lies in the deception found in their books.
210
1 / 5 (5) Aug 30, 2013
religions that espouse love
Ahaahaaa boy are you naive. Sex is entirely about procreation. Your god made it so enjoyable because procreation is so very important.
You need to separate what religions SAY from what they DO
What religions say is their intent. What "religions do" is WHAT PEOPLE, people just like you and me, choose to DO! "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." is A GREAT idea. But, once this great idea gets into human hands, they wipe their butts with it and flush! So blame the "intent" for what the practitioner, the HUMAN, did? No! One part of SOME of us, thinks great thoughts about achieving truly great social norms. But fundamentally we humans, Look, and LOOKED, like humans LONG before we ACTED human or humane. Great thinkers put forth great dogma/ideas/interpretations. But, it was the beer and pizza crowd that said, "Hey lets have gladiatorial games (or UFC!) until we are sick of blood, out of humans, and over run with debt!" THAT is US!
geral
1 / 5 (2) Sep 10, 2013
NSA surreptitiously collects, fbi inhumanely applies:

USA intel use bio-chem weaponry, DEW, etc., on selective Targets foreign & domestic:

For twenty five years I have been surveilled 24/7 and for ten years I have been tortured by DEW by the fbi assassins in their efforts to imprison or kill me.

http://www.sosbee...sau.html

http://barcelona....ndex.php

Very few credible persons have proof of the atrocities committed by the fbi/cia/dod/doj and the same few are often denied a forum to record same; all mainstream media block my posts and many Indymedia prevent my publications. The general population also shows little interest in holding murderous tyrants of the US government responsible for their crimes because they (the people) benefit in the main from the atrocities committed by their leaders in the name of the people. Nevertheless, my work must continue because *mankind as a whole and in its awakened senses, finds totally unacceptable torture, imprisonment (often by secret courts and in one's own body), assassinations, mass murders, etc. as I and others describe.

http://venezuela....22.shtml

or:
http://argentina....6259.php

My affidavit:
http://www.sosbee...007.html

*
http://www.sosbee...ate.html

Additional bedtime reading:

federal burro of investigation:

http://seekingalp...-the-fbi

fbi operative tells me: "kill yourself":
http://www.sosbee...six.html

We must hold fbi responsible:
http://portland.i...?discuss



Torture:



http://www.boell....ture.pdf

fbi operative 'paint me doubtful' proclaims to the world that I am a possible "mass murderer":

http://portland.i...?discuss

We must prosecute fbi:
http://la.indymed...4469.php

fbi historically:
http://www.sosbee...uct.html

The Age of Madness:

http://vancouver....ons/9375

A de facto overthrown government , USA:

http://seekingalp...ps-power