Cheating favors extinction

Apr 30, 2013
Sacharomyces cerevisiae cells in DIC microscopy. Credit: Wikipedia.

Cooperative behaviour is widely observed in nature, but there remains the possibility that so-called 'cheaters' can exploit the system, taking without giving, with uncertain consequences for the social unit as a whole. A new study has found that a yeast colony dominated by non-producers ('cheaters') is more likely to face extinction than one consisting entirely of producers ('co-operators'). The findings, published April 30 in the open access journal PLOS Biology by Alvaro Sanchez and Jeff Gore from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, are the results of the first laboratory demonstration of a full evolutionary-ecological feedback loop in a social microbial population.

The researchers found that while a cooperative yeast colony that survives by breaking down sucrose into a communal supply of can support a surprisingly high ratio of freeloaders—upwards of 90 per cent—a sudden shock to its environment is highly likely to result in catastrophe.

"One of the main things we were interested in was the idea that natural selection can have an effect on the ecology of a population, so that as a population is evolving, natural selection affects the ecological properties," said Dr Sanchez.

The researchers studied a cooperative species, Saccharomyces cerevisiae or 'baker's yeast', focusing on two strains: one which had the SUC2 gene that produces the enzyme invertase (the co-operators), and one lacking SUC2 (the ) making it unable to produce this enzyme. Invertase breaks down sucrose in the environment to liberate glucose and that can be used by all in the colony.

"We were very surprised by the fact that the total for the mixed group (consisting of both co-operators and cheaters) was about the same at equilibrium as the total population size in the absence of cheaters (i.e. purely co-operators). We didn't expect that," Dr Sanchez explained. "If it weren't for the fact that the co-operators and cheaters were labelled with different colours, it would have been very hard to tell whether the population contained any cheaters or not".

This was the case when the environment was benign. But when those stable populations were suddenly exposed to a harsh environment, all of the pure co-operator populations survived, while just one of six mixed populations adapted to the fast deterioration in conditions, the researchers found.

Benjamin Allen, Assistant Professor of Mathematics at Emmanuel College and Martin A. Nowak, director of the Program for Evolutionary Dynamics at Harvard University, co-authored an accompanying Primer in PLOS Biology, "Cooperation and the Fate of Microbial Societies".

"The experiments of Sanchez and Gore beautifully illustrate the central dilemma in the evolution of cooperation. The yeast society depends on cooperation, but if cooperation is plentiful, 'cheaters' can exploit the generosity of others. This leads to cycles of cooperation and exploitation," said Dr Allen.

The researchers found that an eco-evolutionary links changes in population size, and their effects, with changes in the frequency of specific genetic types in the population. During the competition for survival between co-operators and cheaters, they showed that if the population starts off with sufficient co-operators then the social properties of the yeast spiral towards a final equilibrium position that comprises a stable mixture of co-operators and cheaters. However, if the initial population density, or the initial proportion of co-operators, is too low, then not enough simple sugars are produced, and the colony dies out.

Explore further: Prehistoric conflict hastened human brain's capacity for collaboration, study says

More information: Sanchez A, Gore J (2013) Feedback between Population and Evolutionary Dynamics Determines the Fate of Social Microbial Populations. PLoS Biol 11(4): e1001547. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1001547

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ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (21) Apr 30, 2013
It's the same for socialist systems as it enables cheaters, yet so many who claim to be 'for humanity' keep promoting socialism.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (7) Apr 30, 2013
No ryggy its like this:

Cheating fellow tribal members weakens your tribe and so is selected against. Cheating members of other tribes strengthens your own and so is selected for.

Tribes with members who are honest with one another but dishonest with outsiders to the benefit of their own tribe, can be expected to prevail over other tribes who are less skilled at this.

ALL OF WAR IS DECEPTION. Peace is only the preparation for war. And so all of peace must be deception as well. Leaders can be expected to cheat the people as this benefits their own Tribe.

Hope this helps.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (8) Apr 30, 2013
Hey ryggy did you see the latest instance of free-marketeers getting the best out of their 'associates'?

"At least 388 people were killed after the building collapsed, crushing and trapping workers from five apparel factories in the multistory building. Disaster relief officials reported 968 people were hospitalized...

"The owner of the collapsed building, Sohel Rana, was arrested Sunday near the Indian border The disaster refocused attention on the dangers facing workers in the booming Bangladeshi garment industry, ramping up calls for stricter regulation. Western brands whose labels were found in the wreckage faced new pressure to sign on to a safety agreement."
http://www.latime...93.story

Reminds you a little of madoff ey? Only with him the collapse was more figurative.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (13) Apr 30, 2013
What free market in Bangladesh?
""At least 33 members of the current Parliament own garment businesses." said Babul Akter, president of the Bangladesh Garment and Industrial Workers Federation. "That's more than 10% of seats. There are repeated instances of MPs linked to the garment industry blocking stricter legislation.""
""It's not true that the labor law is weak," he said.

The BSCI said Bangladesh had adequate laws governing the safety of buildings, but that the laws weren't properly implemented."
http://online.wsj...310.html

Laws in the US against illegal immigration are not weak. They are just ignored.
The cheaters in this case, again,is the socialist govt, what a surprise.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Apr 30, 2013
What free market in Bangladesh?
""At least 33 members of the current Parliament own garment businesses." said Babul Akter, president of the Bangladesh Garment and Industrial Workers Federation. "That's more than 10% of seats. There are repeated instances of MPs linked to the garment industry blocking stricter legislation.""
""It's not true that the labor law is weak," he said.
So? What is not free about business owners seeking to improve their advantage by corrupting govt? Thats the way it WORKS isnt it? Ask madoff. Ask any enterprising mafioso who knows that the best way to maximize profits is to eliminate the competition.

To the free marketeer labor is just another commodity. And in bangladesh it is a buyers market. Overgrowth ALWAYS reduces the value of the worker. Employers HAVE to begin paying them less in order to remain competitive.

Do you understand now why communism was invented? Free markets made it inevitable.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (14) Apr 30, 2013
What is not free about business owners seeking to improve their advantage by corrupting govt?

You have it backwards. Its the govt mafiosos, because they are the ones with the guns, who corrupt.
Eliminate the competition is precisely the plan of a socialist state to the point where the state must eliminate the individual keeping the individuals dependent upon the state.
Communism is just another variation on the same scheme of central power which has existed for thousands of years.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (12) Apr 30, 2013
This is an example of free markets and individuals can do if not corrupted by the govt:

" Working as a young economics professor at Bangladesh's University of Chittagong, Yunus lent the equivalent of U.S. $27 from his own pocket to 42 women in the village of Jobra who had a small business making bamboo furniture (Bangladesh map).

Since then, the bank he founded has made an estimated 5.7 billion dollars in loans to more than six million people in Bangladesh, 96 percent of them women. "
" Repayment is driven by social pressure. Loan recipients are placed in groups of five. Members can only apply for future loans once the group catches up on some of its outstanding debts."
""You give them a fair deal—not a subsidized loan but a market-interest loan—and they're able to put their motivation, skills, and business savvy to work."
http://news.natio...ace.html
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (12) Apr 30, 2013
""Lasting peace cannot be achieved unless large population groups find ways in which to break out of poverty."

Daley-Harris agrees, saying achieving peace is about more than stopping war.

"A key part of preventing strife is that people have a stake in their communities and are empowered to care for their children," he said. "This is what micro-credit programs have been able to provide."
http://news.natio...e_2.html
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (13) Apr 30, 2013
What the Jewish Free Loan Association, (http://www.jfla.o...ory.php) does is what mutual aid societies did 100 years ago.
But the 'progressive' state had to eliminate this competition to their quest for power.
"Of course, with so many services being supplied by mutual aid, many groups had reason to lobby government for its destruction.

The first major blow against fraternalism occurred when the American Medical Association gained control of the licensing of medical schools. In 1912, a number of state medical boards formed the Federation of State Medical Boards, which accepted the AMA's ratings of medical schools as authoritative. "
http://mises.org/daily/5388

Obamacare is about control, not care.
ekim
5 / 5 (5) Apr 30, 2013
It's the same for socialist systems as it enables cheaters, yet so many who claim to be 'for humanity' keep promoting socialism.

The yeast in this article seems to have practiced socialism for millions if not billions of years. I am all 'for humanity' being around for millions or billions of years.
ekim
3.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Come to think of it, every system or game for that matter, enables cheaters. The only system without cheating is the one with no rules to break. Socialism only works when people believe in it. Capitalism only works when people believe in it. Should I pay for a product and receive nothing in return, I would be cheated and quickly stop making future purchases. If enough people stop believing in the system and start cheating, it will destroy the system. Only our belief in the rules prevents this from happening.
Sanescience
5 / 5 (4) May 01, 2013
Ok, I'll try not to spoil the cathartic diatribe threads with actual topic discussion. But...

Sure it is touchy feely to read that cheaters are "bad" but that language is probably as misapplied a description of the yeast as people projecting their political philosophies onto them.

I can't help but see this article as missing the point. Organism complexity of behavior, or better described as diversity, is probably the best attribute to possess for adapting to new and changing environments. Within the realm of micro organisms, these yeast might occasionally compete in an environment of abundant sugar where the "non-cheaters" are probably slower to claim territory and become a liability under the new conditions.

Fortunately humans live in a much more aware state, but I suspect diversity had its hand in creating our "cheaters" because there may have been times in history when their strategy was successful in an environment of the past. Hopefully those times will vanish forever :-P
nowhere
4 / 5 (4) May 01, 2013
It's the same for socialist systems as it enables cheaters, yet so many who claim to be 'for humanity' keep promoting socialism.

The reason why is that it is idealy the fairest system, although it is exploitable, whereas capatilism is at its ideal the least fair system, and also prone to exploitation.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) May 01, 2013
every system or game for that matter, enables cheaters.

Not for long. Can't fool Mother Nature.
Which is why free market capitalism is most successful. It accommodates the laws of nature and the natural behavior of people.
Socialism must be a faith based system to have any chance of success. Individuals must voluntarily submit to the collective every minute of every day. If they ever change their mind, then they must be forced to stay or be killed or the system will collapse.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) May 01, 2013
"The quintessential caricature of the corrupt capitalist – the lazy scion of inherited wealth, dissipated in undeserved opulence – is actually the real picture of the communist state."
"The welfare states, which thought they could take possession of increasing amounts of capitalism's generated wealth and redistribute it more effectively and efficiently, now find themselves on the road to bankruptcy.

Once again, if not trapped, capital and capitalist alike flee, now having an entire world in which to seek refuge."
"There is a positive message to take away from communism's slavery. Communism and the attempts to restrict capitalism are bound to fail. It will come sooner or later, but come it will."
http://www.forbes...-joke/2/
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
" Repayment is driven by social pressure. Loan recipients are placed in groups of five. Members can only apply for future loans once the group catches up on some of its outstanding debts."
Huh. What's free about this? If I cannot pay off my loan, my neighbors beat up on me? This is only paying neighbors to be enforcers which is why it would obviously be illegal here. It is incidentally the way religions all keep people in the fold.
"A key part of preventing strife is that people have a stake in their communities and are empowered to care for their children," he said. "This is what micro-credit programs have been able to provide."
Well sure ryggy I have been saying this all along. This is why capitalism does not work in religious societies which seek to maximize growth. Prosperity causes pops to grow far faster than their ability to sustain themselves. Before long, inflation sets in and children begin to starve.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) May 01, 2013
People begin to default on their debts. Business owners seek to limit competition by colluding with their fellows, running the competition out of business, and bribing politicians to favor them (well they would be doing this anyway as it is only natural). And invariably, the people would blame whoever was in power for their misery.

An early solution to this conundrum was to make the jews the lenders of money, and to modify a religion to make them natural villains. When the cycle topped out, they would foot the blame for it and pogrom would ensue, leaving kings and dukes to confiscate their money and remain blameless.

Nowadays the system is configured to have the people blame themselves for this. THEY made bad investments. THEY elected incompetent leaders. THEY should have been more responsible with their money.

Meanwhile, retired politicians build libraries and the System itself remains blameless. Pretty clever eh? Caution - it thrives on the Cycles. There never will be equilibrium.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) May 01, 2013
inflation sets in

Inflation is a result of the govt devaluing the money. It's a delibeate action by the state. It doesn't 'set in'.
, retired politicians build libraries

One of the greatest library systems was built by Andrew Carnegie.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Inflation is a result of the govt devaluing the money. It's a delibeate action by the state. It doesn't 'set in'
No it is the result if too much money chasing too few goods. It is as old as civilization. It is an indication of overgrowth.

The economic cycle: growth, decay, collapse, rebirth.

Inflation begins to predominate toward the end of the growth phase. It is inevitable and unavoidable in a capitalist system.

In a sense it is a reflection of natural selection. A species naturally produces more individuals than can be expected to survive to maturity. This means that some will inevitably starve or go bankrupt.

Humans are unique in that they can revolt against their leaders, restrict their growth, pass laws, etc.
ValeriaT
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
The cheating is IMO rather manifestation of decline. The individual in prospering society have no reason for cheating.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) May 01, 2013
too much money chasing too few goods.

That's what I said.
Govts create the money and eventually devalue it for their own ends.
Free market money could not be inflated.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) May 01, 2013
Listen carefully. The govt is immaterial. Pharaoh releases gold to finance expansion and growth. Prosperity ensues. Families in the region have much food and grow faster than the region can be developed to support them. Staples become scarce. The generation born near the end of this phase, when times were still good, now begin to starve.

Luckily Joseph told pharaoh what to expect, and pharaoh stored grain for just this inevitability. He and Joseph end up owning everything of value in Egypt. Because of inflation the people had to spend everything they had to buy food.

This story was written to explain to you how economic cycles work, and how Leaders can take advantage of them. They are as unavoidable as the seasons, as the Nile floods every spring.

If you see your govts manipulating the value of money, it is only the effort to Time and Stage the transitions from phase to phase. It is evidence of Efforts to benefit from these cycles. This is only prudent don't you think?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Floods can be ruinous or they can be very beneficial depending on how you Plan and Prepare for them yes? They replenish nutrients but can wipe away irreplaceable infrastructure.

Pharaohs have had thousands of years to learn how to properly Deal with them, as did their Predecessors, yes? To maximize their Benefit and minimize their potential for destruction.

We should be looking for similar such Planning and Forethought by Leaders today and throughout history in the Management of everything having to do with the preservation of the civilization They have spent so much time and effort to establish.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) May 01, 2013
Families in the region have much food and grow faster than the region can be developed to support them. Staples become scarce. The generation born near the end of this phase, when times were still good, now begin to starve.


Predator/Prey model, which was the norm until free markets and individual liberty took hold.
I notice Auto always uses models in which humans are tribal and controlled by some central authority instead of each individual human his own sovereign.
Auto must prefer this version of the socialist collective as he can't understand anything else.
Pharaohs have had thousands of years to learn how to properly Deal with them, as did their Predecessors, yes?

Why didn't the pharaohs invent steal, earth moving machines, concrete, internal combustion engines, electric motors, .... to deal with those floods if they had so much time on their hands?
Why didn't Egypt of 500 years ago do so?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Why didn't the pharaohs invent steal, earth moving machines, concrete, internal combustion engines, electric motors, .... to deal with those floods if they had so much time on their hands?
Why didn't Egypt of 500 years ago do so?
Well they always had too many people with nothing to do didnt they? Like the chinese and the aztecs et al. They had to put them to work building big stone piles or walls, or sending them off to fight with others who were having similar problems with too many people and no way to support them. Ask me a hard question.

Why did the Chinese abandon the use of gunpowder? Well, it wasn't needed to fight wars and kill large numbers of people. It was more trouble than it was worth.

The euros however needed it to conquer the Americas. So they developed it and trained with it in Staged and Constructive wars for a few hundred years in Preparation for the invasion. Because that was the Plan.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Predator/Prey model, which was the norm until free markets and individual liberty took hold
-And then people suddenly became honest and good and compliant because everyone joined the Rotary?? Free markets encourage racketeering by clever, ambitious, and resourceful people. People who see nothing wrong and everything right with preying on those outside their tribe.

OF COURSE so does socialism, or any system of govt for that matter. Bright, ambitious, resourceful prople are inevitable. Corruption is inevitable whenever populations grow past point of stability. And before.

No form of govt works for long without Contol from Above. Without Management. Without Shepherds working to keep the flock on the path.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Why didn't the pharaohs invent steal, earth moving machines, concrete, internal combustion engines, electric motors, .... to deal with those floods if they had so much time on their hands?
Why didn't Egypt of 500 years ago do so?
Machines are much more dependable than slaves. Watch - when machines get brains, we won't need slaves anymore at all.

THEN what will we do with them? Oh right, family Planning. With a capital P.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (6) May 01, 2013
Well they always had too many people with nothing to do didnt they?

Now you are making excuses.

"These beliefs have made possible more progress in 200 years than was made previously in over 5,000 years. Thus the title "The 5,000 Year Leap". "
http://www.nccsst...o/5000YL
Corruption is inevitable whenever populations grow past point of stability.

Corruption is not due to population.
Why did the Chinese abandon the use of gunpowder?

Why didn't the Emperor of China use the technology to explore and colonize?
euros however needed it to conquer the Americas.

Why didn't the Chinese beat them to it?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Now you are making excuses
No you are ignoring the obvious as usual.
"These beliefs have made possible more progress in 200 years than was made previously in over 5,000 years. Thus the title "The 5,000 Year Leap".
Nothing new under the sun. Why didnt the Greeks, who conceived and explored about every form of govt, jump right to democracy and stay there? Why did it fizzle back then?

Why didn't the ancients explore what they already knew about science? Why were celestial navigation, shipbuilding, and the knowledge of the Americas suppressed throughout the dark ages?

Because the world was not ready for these things. Dangerous tech and philosophies were not allowed to proliferate until certain Goals were met. The precolombian cultures had to be destroyed for one.
Corruption is not due to population
That's right. I said that. Pop pressure only makes it worse.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Why didn't the Emperor of China use the technology to explore and colonize?
Good question. The Chinese were trading throughout the Indian ocean. Chinese trade with south America was apparently the source of the cocaine and tobacco found deep within the tissues of Egyptian mummies.

Why isn't Australia full of Chinese or Japanese? Apparently this was not part of the Plan.
Why didn't the Chinese beat them to it?
Strategically, Spain was the best place to launch an invasion of the western hemisphere and to maintain colonization across a much smaller ocean. The Caribbean was an obvious staging area.

Ask yourself why the temple-building civilizations around the globe all arose at about the same time? Why did Qin appear at the same time as Alexander? Were these isolated events or the early stages of world conquest by a pragmatic Tribe of Leaders intent upon securing a future for their descendants amidst a race destined to destroy itself and ruin the world?

This is my guess.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) May 01, 2013
Because the world was not ready for these things.

Says who?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
Says who?
I told you. The People who OWN you.

"SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. (MarketWatch) — Yes, capitalism is working ... for the Forbes 1,000 Global Billionaires whose ranks swelled from 322 in 2000 to 1,426 recently. Billionaires control the vast majority of the world's wealth, while the income of American workers stagnated.

"For the rest of the world, capitalism is not working: A billion live on less than two dollars a day. With global population exploding to 10 billion by 2050, that inequality gap will grow, fueling revolutions, wars, adding more billionaires and more folks surviving on two bucks a day.
Over the years we've explored the reasons capitalism blindly continues on its self-destructive path..." etc. FORBES

-What's that? You say they're not doing it right? Maybe capitalism is just past it's Time.

What's bigger than 1500 billionaires? The People who OWN them. The People who Allow them to exist. The People who provided the System which created them. That's Who.
ekim
4 / 5 (2) May 01, 2013
Socialism must be a faith based system to have any chance of success. Individuals must voluntarily submit to the collective every minute of every day. If they ever change their mind, then they must be forced to stay or be killed or the system will collapse.

Capitalism is also faith based. Faith that I will receive the goods I pay for, or receive payment for my goods. Faith that law enforcement will uphold our laws. Faith that government will pass fair laws when elected. Faith that the system works.
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (3) May 01, 2013
@ryggie What is not free about business owners seeking to improve their advantage by corrupting govt?
You have it backwards. Its the govt mafiosos, because they are the ones with the guns, who corrupt.
The Russian mob formed organically from the street. Government was just another form of influence to be bought and sold
@ryggie
every system or game for that matter, enables cheaters.

Which is why free market capitalism is most successful. It accommodates the laws of nature and the natural behavior of people.
Fail. There is no single law of nature
nowhere
4 / 5 (4) May 02, 2013
every system or game for that matter, enables cheaters.

Not for long. Can't fool Mother Nature.
Which is why free market capitalism is most successful. It accommodates the laws of nature and the natural behavior of people.

The only law of nature it accomodates is survival of the fittest, which is an unfair system. This is the system chosen by greedy individuals who are in the position to exploit, and the ignorant who are exploited. It fits the "natural behaviour" of people because we have evolved via natural selection, and so this selfishness is ingrained. As a civilised species it is our moral obligation to rise above such base natural instinct and create a fair society for all.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) May 02, 2013
"the Principles of the Open Future. The first one is that we agree to tell the truth and we agree to be governed by rational argument from public evidence. "
"The second principle is that when the evidence does not decide, when the evidence is not sufficient to decide from rational argument, whether one point of view is right or another point of view is right, we agree to encourage competition and diversification amongst the professionals in the community. "

"And therefore it's not an accident that the history of science is intertwined with the history of democratic societies and it's not an accident that science has flourished best, not exclusively, but mostly in democratic societies."
http://bigthink.c...c-method
It's called virtue. It's what the authors of the Constitution said was required.
AGW is but one example of the failure of virtue.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (6) May 02, 2013
reate a fair society for all.

What is fair? It is it fair to have a gang of thugs steal your hard earned work, ostensibly to give to those who didn't work so hard?
As long as the 'liberal' thugs have good intentions, it's 'fair'?
What is really fair and for the first time in history, the US Constitution created a govt where each individual was equal under the law and had equal opportunity. This real fairness as the thugs are required to protect everyone's property and life, equally,
Socialism is the equal sharing if misery. Is this fair?

TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) May 02, 2013
"And therefore it's not an accident that the history of science is intertwined with the history of democratic societies and it's not an accident that science has flourished best, not exclusively, but mostly in democratic societies."
And Who was it that filled your head with pleasant fantasies of free market utopia? And who are those 1500 billionaires along with the few million on the happy side of the bell curve? They are the machine owners whose machines are replacing workers at unprecedented rates, and pocketing tax revenues which previously went to support the infrastructure.

Science flourishes best in the context of enhanced competition. The purest form of competition is war. Science in the last few centuries has made it's greatest progress by fighting wars which had to be won at all costs.

Competition for consumer dollars also drives tech innovation but is ruinous to the environment. Indications are that consumerism is being phased out by eliminating consumers.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (5) May 02, 2013
It is it fair to have a gang of thugs steal your hard earned work, ostensibly to give to those who didn't work so hard?
What is fair? To allow those who just happened to be born with well-functioning brains and social connections, to take from those without these advantages?
the US Constitution created a govt where each individual was equal under the law and had equal opportunity.
Socialism is the equal sharing if misery. Is this fair?
Your god created disparity and it is unfair for people to take advantage of it.

In the tribe, the more capable work for the good of all. The young, the lame, the old and widowed, are provided for as this increases trust, cohesion, and cooperation. Everyone contributes who CAN contribute.

But when one tribe conquers another, the weak are killed. Your tribe is on a rampage again ryggy. They forget that the human race is now a single tribe. This country was founded as a single tribe, as an example for the world to follow.
nowhere
3.7 / 5 (3) May 03, 2013
What is fair? It is it fair to have a gang of thugs steal your hard earned work, ostensibly to give to those who didn't work so hard?

You say "work so hard" but what you mean is "exploit so well".
In an ideal social situation each individual is rewarded relative to how hard they work, not how well they exploit.

What is really fair and for the first time in history, the US Constitution created a govt where each individual was equal under the law and had equal opportunity.

You seem to think we live in a magic world, where regardless of education opportunity, mental ability, physical ability, race, location, era, and ancestral success, every one has equal opportunity. In your world each oppertunity taken doesnt lead to compounding advantage, and each one missed doesnt lead to compounding disadvantage, passed on for generations. There are no natural occuring monopolies(thugs?), and they do not exploit their position.
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (8) May 03, 2013
In an ideal social situation each individual is rewarded relative to how hard they work,

No.
People are rewarded for how smart they work to meet the needs and wants of their customers.
You seem to think we live in a magic world,

For those who emigrated to the USA with no money, no education and no pedigree and created a nice living for themselves and their family or even became millionaires, it IS magic compared to the socialist states they escaped from.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) May 03, 2013
People are rewarded for how smart they work to meet the needs and wants of their customers
Now you know that its rarely that simple...

"Authorities said that traders bought rat, fox, mink and other uninspected meats -- and after adding red coloring and other chemicals -- sold them as lamb rolls for markets in Shanghai and neighboring Jiangsu province."
For those who emigrated to the USA with no money, no education and no pedigree and created a nice living for themselves and their family or even became millionaires, it IS magic compared to the socialist states they escaped from
Now you know that its rarely that simple. Take don corleone for instance. The quin·tes·sen·tial free marketeer. Is this what you are talking about?
ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (7) May 03, 2013
'Elsewhere, little progress has been made to protect consumers from paying too much for inferior fish. The Food and Drug Administration, which maintains a list of acceptable market names for fish species, has historically focused efforts on food safety, rather than economic fraud such as seafood substitution. The agency recently began conducting its own DNA testing, but the results so far have provided little insight into where mislabeling occurs in the supply chain."
http://www.boston...ws_links

This is why good Chinese restaurants have live fish for sale to eat and markets sell live animals. Chinese and most others with corrupt govts have found ways to ensure they get what they pay for, or they don't make the same mistake twice.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (5) May 03, 2013
"Public discontent about food safety has brought growing pressure on the Chinese Communist Party leadership, especially since 2008, when officials acknowledged that tens of thousands of children were at risk from kidney stones and other organ damage caused by milk powder adulterated with melamine, a chemical used to bamboozle protein tests. At least six infants died from illnesses attributed to the toxin, which sickened over 300,000 children. "
http://www.nytime...tml?_r=0
This meshes well with the article, cheat and die.
Obama threatened to furlough govt meat inspectors if his sequestration went into effect.
Looks like the US govt cares more about promoting socialism than about food safety.
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (6) May 03, 2013
"Building collapses are common in India as construction workers sometimes use poor-quality materials to cut costs. The massive demand for housing around the cities, and pervasive corruption, allow builders to add unauthorised floors or construct entire buildings illegally."
http://www.guardi...s-dozens
Better stop trading with India.

But then what to do when US govt regulations cause the death of more people as CAFE standards do.

" A new assessment of global earthquake fatalities over the past three decades indicates that 83 percent of all deaths caused by the collapse of buildings during earthquakes occurred in countries considered to be unusually corrupt."
"High wealth is strongly linked to countries with a stable government conducive to the rule of law, they said."
http://www.scienc...2415.htm
Stable govts and rule of law support wealth creation? Really?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) May 03, 2013
Your examples are all of emerging wild west-type free markets WITHOUT codes, ordinances, laws, and especially enforcement which you have indicated only restricts market freedom. Like Somalia as I recall, which you seemed to think was a nice place.

But then you cite an instance where Obama wants to REDUCE regulation, presumably because it's a bad thing, presumably because mr obama wants it. You appear to be conflicted.

Btw Somalia, good news - no piracy in a year because... dastardly rich country regulators with drones and gunships regulated them out of business?

Bad news - 300k starved in 2010 because... no one could make money selling them food? Free marketeers commandeered relief trucks? Which?

Bluebeard was a free marketeer. So was Carnegie. So was madoff. So was genghis khan. So what?
VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2013
"It's the same for socialist systems " - RyggTard

Three is no greater "cheater" than the Capitalist who lives of the sweat and labor of it's workforce.
VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2013
"It is it fair to have a gang of thugs steal your hard earned work, ostensibly to give to those who didn't work so hard?" - RyggTard

That is what Capitalism is based upon. Capitalists never work. They are simply parasites on the working class.
VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2013
"People are rewarded for how smart they work to meet the needs and wants of their customers." - RyggTard

Is that why Conservatives, Libertarians, Randites and Corporations conspired against the American People and moved most of America's manufacturing sector to low wage countries in order to reduce costs and produce inferior products?
VendicarE
3 / 5 (2) May 03, 2013

"Building collapses are common in India as construction workers sometimes use poor-quality materials to cut costs." - RyggTard

Construction workers never decide what quality of materials to use. Corporate management does, and does so only by overriding the design criterion set by the building architectural engineers.

If the building collapses due to shoddy materials, it is invariably the result of a Corporate decision in which management attempted to profit by puttng the lives of it's workforce at jeopardy

Truly this is the perpetual stench of the Capitalist.
.

VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2013
Question: Why were Chinese Corporations putting poison in children's milk powder?

Answer: Those Capitalists concluded that the money in their pockets was more valuable than the children they were poisoning.

This is the Libertarian/Randite way.

"especially since 2008, when officials acknowledged that tens of thousands of children were at risk from kidney stones and other organ damage caused by milk powder adulterated with melamine" - RyggTard
VendicarE
1 / 5 (2) May 03, 2013
Yesterday you were demanding that Obama keep these people out of America by closing the borders to immigrants.

"For those who emigrated to the USA with no money, no education and no pedigree and created a nice living for themselves" - RyggTard

Make up your mind RandTard.
VendicarE
3 / 5 (4) May 03, 2013
You are still living in the 1950's.

"it IS magic compared to the socialist states they escaped from." - RyggTard

Over the last 30 years of Republican misrule and Libertarian/Randite Treason, America is now firmly a second rate nation with a third rate populace.

The Socialist states are the place to be if you want a job.

Just ask anyone in the Pacific Rim.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (4) May 03, 2013
Your examples are all of emerging wild west-type free markets WITHOUT codes, ordinances, laws, and especially enforcement which you have indicated only restricts market freedom.


India is a free market state with no laws? Not long ago they were communist.

you cite an instance where Obama wants to REDUCE regulation,

What regulations are those?
You mean meat inspectors? No didn't want reduce regulation, he wants to cut the number of those doing the regulation to create meat shortages.
VendicarE
2.3 / 5 (3) May 03, 2013
"Capitalism is also faith based. " - Ekim

The greatest Capitalist faith is that the market can continue to grow exponentially even though resources are limited.

We have reached and exceeded the rate of consumption that the planet can sustain, and yet Capitalists take it on blind, ignorant, faith that their markets will continue to grow by 3 to 5 percent per year.

Quite impossible of course.

They might as well have faith that 1+1 = 3.

But that is the primary delusion of Capitalism.
VendicarE
1 / 5 (2) May 03, 2013
Murder is illegal in India.

"India is a free market state with no laws?" - RyggTard

What is your address again TardieBoy?
VendicarE
1 / 5 (2) May 03, 2013
"he wants to cut the number of those doing the regulation to create meat shortages." - RyggTard

Just as you want to throw out the laws making child molestation illegal so that you can abuse children.

You see, we can all just presume the motivations of others.

However, unlike your accusation the Libertarian Party Platform supports my statement of your motivation.

TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
You mean meat inspectors? No didn't want reduce regulation, he wants to cut the number of those doing the regulation to create meat shortages
Well according to you inspectors aren't necessary because competition and customer discernment will determine meat quality. Like in china.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (4) May 04, 2013
You mean meat inspectors? No didn't want reduce regulation, he wants to cut the number of those doing the regulation to create meat shortages
Well according to you inspectors aren't necessary because competition and customer discernment will determine meat quality. Like in china.

Competition and customers will determine meat quality, among others, much more promptly than govt inspections.
Oscar Meyer was on example. He made quality meats wrapping them with a yellow ribbon.
USDA stamps of approval imply the product is safe, but there are still national recalls of contaminated meat products, all USDA approved.
The pet food contamination from China was discovered by the pet food company after complaints. After the failure of the Chinese govt to control this product, they hired a non-govt agency, nsf.org to establish a food safety program.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
@ryggie Competition and customers will determine meat quality, among others, much more promptly than govt inspections.
So you enjoy eating the shit that is mixed in with your hamburger? That explains many things
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (4) May 04, 2013
@ryggie Competition and customers will determine meat quality, among others, much more promptly than govt inspections.
So you enjoy eating the shit that is mixed in with your hamburger? That explains many things

Why would you do that? Why would you buy any product if you don't know what's in it or how its made?
All recent salmonella outbreaks were from govt inspected meat.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
Competition and customers will determine meat quality, among others
You bet. In china it determined that in certain applications rat meat is (initially) indistinguishable from mutton. And melamine from real protein. And in US sausage making, cadaver meat from beef. And unsafe substitutes WILL be used to remain competitive.
they hired a non-govt agency, nsf.org to establish a food safety program
...because the industry was not capable of regulating greed and corruption out of its own ranks, and could not have been expected to hire a private company to do this for them. So the govt HAD to.
Why would you do that? Why would you buy any product if you don't know what's in it or how its made?
Well in china I would have to ask the mfr and they would say 'Of course there is no rat meat in our egg rolls!' -But they would be lying wouldnt they?
All recent salmonella outbreaks were from govt inspected meat
Inspection and detection of contaminants is a learning process.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
@ryggie Why would you do that? Why would you buy any product if you don't know what's in it or how its made?All recent salmonella outbreaks were from govt inspected meat.

Inspecting after processing doesn't work, ryggie.

"Yet confidential grinding logs and other Cargill records show that the hamburgers were made from a mix of slaughterhouse trimmings and a mash-like product derived from scraps that were ground together at a plant in Wisconsin. The ingredients came from slaughterhouses in Nebraska, Texas and Uruguay, and from a South Dakota company that processes fatty trimmings and treats them with ammonia to kill bacteria....Unwritten agreements between some companies appear to stand in the way of ingredient testing. Many big slaughterhouses will sell only to grinders who agree not to test their shipments for E. coli, according to officials at two large grinding companies" http://www.nytime...eat.html
aroc91
5 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
I could have sworn this article was about yest.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) May 04, 2013
@ryggie Why would you do that? Why would you buy any product if you don't know what's in it or how its made?All recent salmonella outbreaks were from govt inspected meat.

Inspecting after processing doesn't work, ryggie.
l

Then don't buy it.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
WarRoom
5 / 5 (2) May 04, 2013
"The researchers found that while a cooperative yeast colony that survives by breaking down sucrose into a communal supply of simple sugars can support a surprisingly high ratio of freeloaders—upwards of 90 per cent—a sudden shock to its environment is highly likely to result in catastrophe." Kind of sounds like 2008
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) May 04, 2013
@ryggie Why would you do that? Why would you buy any product if you don't know what's in it or how its made?All recent salmonella outbreaks were from govt inspected meat.

Inspecting after processing doesn't work, ryggie.
l

Then don't buy it.
RYGGY. People in china have to eat. They had no idea that the eggrolls they were eating had rodent flesh inside. In the US, the people who bought all that salmonella-laced ground beef had no idea it was IN there.

These are 2 examples of where savvy consumers were buying cheap food that was making them sick, sold by unscrupulous free marketeers.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) May 04, 2013
n the US, the people who bought all that salmonella-laced ground beef had no idea it was IN there.

There are govt regulations that guarantee meat content and quality.
How could salmonella contaminate govt certified products? Don't they know the law?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) May 05, 2013
n the US, the people who bought all that salmonella-laced ground beef had no idea it was IN there.

There are govt regulations that guarantee meat content and quality.
How could salmonella contaminate govt certified products? Don't they know the law?
The system the govt has quickly determined the source, limited the outbreak, and corrected the problem.

The govt also recently passed laws which said that repeat offenders couldn't be shut down although I suppose lawsuits would work. Are you responsible for this?

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