New research claims US imposed ‘democracy’ won’t work for Arab Spring

Nov 18, 2011

America needs to listen to the Arab Spring protestors in Egypt and engage with their vision of the future rather than trying to impose a way of life, according to new research from the University of Warwick.

In a paper just presented to state department staff at the Library of Congress in Washington DC and due to be personally presented to former US Secretary of State Madeline Albright next month, research fellow Oz Hassan claims the American idea of is too focused on economics and there is a lack of innovation in US Middle East policy.

Hassan spent time conducting research among the protesters in Tahrir Square in Egypt before the police cleared it in August 2011.

Following the Arab Spring and the overthrow of Mubarak, Hassan said a multitude of Egyptian definitions of freedom were emerging.

He said: “All want to move away from the tyranny of the Mubarak regime, and some are more politically liberal and secular than others. Yet, the Obama administration would be better supporting these positive trends, rather than promoting an approach derived from the distant shores of Washington DC.”

Explore further: Multidisciplinary study reveals big story of cultural migration (w/ Video)

More information: Oz Hassan’s full paper is available here www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/csg… reen/papers/lectures

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Nerdyguy
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 18, 2011
Wow...none of the communists, marxists, anarchists, ethnocentrists, or just the generally grumpy have showed up here to say nasty things about the big, nasty U.S.? Color me shocked.
Nerdyguy
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 18, 2011
The title is very misleading. It should also be pointed out that NO RESEARCH was done here. In fact, Hassan doesn't actually claim that's the case. The title is just poorly worded.

This is a straightforward political analysis/opinion piece for the EU (GR:EEN is a large-scale integrated FP7 research project funded by the European Commission). The subject matter is almost totally focused on American policy towards Egypt, though there is just the slightest mention of a couple of other countries. Definitely NOT about the Arab Spring as a whole.

What Hassan does conclude: "America needs to understand Egyptian's vision of the future and support it; not seek to define and impose a way of life upon others."
rwinners
3 / 5 (2) Nov 18, 2011
It (US democracy) isn't working too well at home, either.
epsi00
1 / 5 (2) Nov 19, 2011
It (US democracy) isn't working too well at home, either.


Well at least Egypt is not being bombed into a (quantum ) democratic state like Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, and Pakistan and...
ryggesogn2
4 / 5 (4) Nov 19, 2011
It (US democracy) isn't working too well at home, either.

That's a good thing as the US is not a democracy. The USA is supposed to be Constitutional republic.
Will the Arabs have the courage to oppose the Islamic tyrants that replace the political tyrants?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.9 / 5 (16) Nov 19, 2011
research fellow Oz Hassan claims the American idea of democracy is too focused on economics and there is a lack of innovation in US Middle East policy.
The cultures it intends to replace are religion-based. The protesters in egypt are islamist and want sharia for themselves and the rest of the world.

These virulent cultures must first be destroyed before they can be replaced with systems designed to function within their means. Luckily they appear to be in the Process of consuming themselves. But they have proved to be remarkably resilient.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (17) Nov 19, 2011
It (US democracy) isn't working too well at home, either.


Well at least Egypt is not being bombed into a (quantum ) democratic state like Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, and Pakistan and...
The rate of population growth in religionist cultures makes their aggression inevitable and war unavoidable. Their pops will always grow to the point where they are poor and starving, and their holy books tell them this is the fault of the infidel.

If they are not contained they WILL be on your doorstep demanding you convert. They WILL be carting you off in the middle of the night. Their armies WILL be destroying your way of life unless you destroy them first.

You think there is any difference between islamism and Nazism? One is much better at survival and conquest than the other. Deutschland erwache.
epsi00
3 / 5 (2) Nov 19, 2011
If they are not contained they WILL be on your doorstep demanding you convert. They WILL be carting you off in the middle of the night. Their armies WILL be destroying your way of life unless you destroy them first.


That is exactly what the US, not the islamists, is doing. Remember that Nazism was a creation of western culture...and signs are all over for those who do not suffer from political blindness that Nazism is back and doing well.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 19, 2011
Remember, democracy is a product of western culture.
epsi00
1 / 5 (1) Nov 19, 2011
Remember, democracy is a product of western culture.


Which democracy? the one imposed to afghanistan? If you knew anything about democracy, you'd know that it was there before there was such a thing as western culture.
ryggesogn2
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 19, 2011
The origin of the word 'democracy' is from Greece.
Greece, in the west, made significant contributions to western culture.
Tribal cultures are democratic?
ryggesogn2
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 19, 2011
BTW, Afghans are not Arabs.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (16) Nov 19, 2011
If they are not contained they WILL be on your doorstep demanding you convert. They WILL be carting you off in the middle of the night. Their armies WILL be destroying your way of life unless you destroy them first.


That is exactly what the US, not the islamists, is doing. Remember that Nazism was a creation of western culture...and signs are all over for those who do not suffer from political blindness that Nazism is back and doing well.
It's CALLED accepting the inevitable and taking steps to counter it BEFORE it does what it will do. I suppose you think Neville chamberlain was on the right track?

As long as religions exist, war is inevitable. You want to appease them? Give them aid perhaps? The majority of gazans are living off foreign aid and they are STILL pissed. And their numbers STILL continue to grow. And they are told there is only ONE solution to this.
Cont>>
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (16) Nov 19, 2011
And if by chance Palestinians get what they pray for, do you think they will leave their culture back on the beach? Or will they continue to double their numbers every 16 years because it is what Allah demands of them?

And will they find new enemies to blame their resulting misery upon, and join with all their like-minded brothers across the region in a new Islamist caliphate founded on the promise of a world under sharia law? A caliphate every bit as vicious as the last, and dedicated to replacing every culture they encounter with their own.

Western cultures have achieved growth rates in keeping with their ability to sustain themselves. They have no need to take what isn't theirs. They DO need to protect what they have established because it is the ONLY way this world can survive.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (16) Nov 19, 2011
Defense against such reproductive aggression is futile. The aggressor waits patiently like the lion in the grass, watching the herd, noting any signs of weakness and attacking when HE is ready. Humans learned long ago that the only lasting defense against lions is to hunt them. Any Arab will tell you this.

Paradoxically this is one of the first actions which caused human populations to explode. Humans went on to eliminate more natural elements of attrition which had kept their numbers in check. The only enemy left became the tribe next door.

This rarely crosses any Religionists mind as it is not in any of their books. Gilgamesh (and Zeus) mentioned it but of course those works were all updated.
epsi00
1 / 5 (2) Nov 19, 2011
And will they find new enemies to blame their resulting misery upon, and join with all their like-minded brothers across the region in a new Islamist caliphate founded on the promise of a world under sharia law? A caliphate every bit as vicious as the last, and dedicated to replacing every culture they encounter with their own.


Well maybe you can explain why the US is working very hard to bring the caliphate back by replacing a secular regime first in Iraq, then another secular regime in Libya and in few months the secular regime in Syria by islamist state under the sharia law. It shows only one thing, either the US is not threatened by islamic states ( like that of Pakistan ) or the US does not know what it is doing. Maybe you have a better theory and can enlighten the rest of us.
Nerdyguy
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 19, 2011
It (US democracy) isn't working too well at home, either.


You are misinformed. It's working quite well, thanks.

There will ALWAYS be a few thousand, or even a few tens of thousands, who are dissatisfied. That doesn't equate to democracy "not working". Or maybe I misunderstood your intent.
Nerdyguy
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 19, 2011
Well maybe you can explain why the US is working very hard to bring the caliphate back by replacing a secular regime first in Iraq


lmao but when you get creative with your fiction, you REALLY go all out! The U.S. is out of Iraq you nimrod.

then another secular regime in Libya


The U.S. has no operations in Libya. Do you ever fact check?

and in few months the secular regime in Syria by islamist state under the sharia law.


Again, you seem to be confused. In the case of Libya and Syria, it is THEIR OWN PEOPLE who are fighting.

Nerdyguy
3.3 / 5 (3) Nov 19, 2011
Seems to be a lot of misinformation spreading around. I'm guessing most people didn't read the -- very good -- paper by Hassan.

In any case, it's almost totally about Egypt. Hassan believes that Egypt wants democracy, regardless of the U.S. or anyone else. And Hassan argues that the U.S. should back off from talking about "capitalistic" ideas too much.

And, let's face it, we Americans do like to go on about having a McDonald's on every street corner. But, Hassan's point is, there's already one on Tahrir Square.

So, he believes America's input should be more along the lines of classical advice on building a lawful, democratic society.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) Nov 19, 2011
Well maybe you can explain why the US is working very hard to bring the caliphate back by replacing a secular regime first in Iraq, then another secular regime in Libya and in few months the secular regime in Syria by islamist state under the sharia law... Maybe you have a better theory and can enlighten the rest of us.
I'd be happy to. Cultural destruction is a complex endeavor. It requires a multiple-pronged approach. It requires different strategies for different regions and different cultures.

You can destroy a culture the way pol pot did or Holodomor. You can fight 2wars for the right to sell opium to Chinese the way the Brits did. You can spread disease among mesoamericans.

Or you can fuel a healthy war of attrition by dividing the people and setting one group against the other. These regimes you mention are not being swapped out. Wars and revolts are reducing regional abilities to fight. Armies are being destroyed and potential armies preempted.
Cont>>
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (4) Nov 19, 2011
So, he believes America's input should be more along the lines of classical advice on building a lawful, democratic society.

The first bit of advice is to us proper terminology. Democracy is a poor choice. Their first step is to create a constitution that acknowledges and protects the incoherent rights of every individual. Including non-Muslims.
Free markets would naturally flow from such a govt since no one, not event the govt, can use force to take your property.
They should read The Law, by Bastiat.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (13) Nov 19, 2011
The prevention of multimillion-man armies marching against Israel and India and china and Russia is a Process which has been ongoing for generations. Ever since the Brits and the French carved up all the blank-ostans into the artificial countries we see today, and installed phony Baathist regimes and whatnot to Manage them constructively.

And so you have a saddaam who can obliterate a marsh Arab culture. Or a soviet afghan war that kills afghans at roughly 10 to 1. Or a bizarre 11 year Iran/Iraq war of attrition which accomplishes NOTHING but defuses both halves of a divided shiia populace. Etc etc etc.

Iran is seeing potential allies and conscripts evaporating before it's eyes. A caliphate is only possible when the forces of Muhammad again go on the march as one mighty horde. And for the moment this is seeming a little less likely.

Applied Demographics is indeed an exacting Endeavor. This is why it is called social Engineering. Not for the squeamish. But then, what is? not compre
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.1 / 5 (13) Nov 19, 2011
hension. Not understanding if the squeamish are unwilling to look at ALL the facts and seek them out in the most unpleasant of places.

" 18 I also said to myself, As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return."

Ecclesiastes 3. What brilliance. EVERY VERSE applies directly to the human condition, and tells us exactly what we must do in order to survive it. There is a [Proper] Time for everything under the sun.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4 / 5 (12) Nov 19, 2011
http://www.bibleg...sion=NIV

-Read it and weep.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Nov 19, 2011
Footnote: ecclesiastes means 'for the priests'. It was supposedly written by the wisest and most powerful king who ever was (no it wasn't).

In Reality it WAS written by Leaders, for Leaders; these being the 'philosopher kings', the High Priests of Order, Stability, Progress, and Survival who are with us today, and who have been with us for a very long time.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.8 / 5 (10) Nov 19, 2011
Errata - soviet/afghan war:
Soviet deaths = 15,000
afghan deaths = 2,000,000
-plus refugees, children never born due to stress etc.
-That's a little better than 10 to 1 isn't it? Smells like victory.

Compare this to the Korean conflict:
US deaths = 50,000
Asian deaths = 4,000,000
-Plus a million or so from starvation after the US destroyed the north korean irrigation reservoirs in the closing months of the war, which caused crops to fail.
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Nov 19, 2011
Americans would do better, if they would implement the cold fusion ASAP and become independent to East Asia or Venezuela's oil in such way. It would keep the price of oil low and prohibited the enemies of democracy from Putin to Chavez in doing money just with selling of oil.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Nov 19, 2011
Calli, so why do you think the current Obama regime,and the watermelons, wants to empower the socialists: China, Russia, Venezuela... by preventing the US from exploiting its own energy resources?
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
"America needs to understand Egyptians vision of the future and support it;"
http://www2.warwi...aper.pdf
What is this vision?
"The writing of Egypts constitution has been a divisive issue, and details of who will write it and what it contains are at the heart of the recent rally."
http://english.al...807.html
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (2) Nov 20, 2011
"The problem with Egypt is that there is no public trust. There is no trust, period. False rumor, which is the opiate of the Egyptian masses and the bread and butter of political discourse in the Arab world, trumps clarity, reason and the will to tolerate a different opinion, let alone a different religion or the spirit of open discourse. "
"The Arab Spring was a luminous instance of democratic euphoria in a country that had no history of democracy or euphoria. What happened to the Copts this fall cast a dark cloud, which the interim government, whatever its true convictions, would do well to dispel. "
http://www.nytime...amp;_r=1
Nerdyguy
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
Americans would do better, if they would implement the cold fusion ASAP and become independent to East Asia or Venezuela's oil in such way. It would keep the price of oil low and prohibited the enemies of democracy from Putin to Chavez in doing money just with selling of oil.


Sweet, he got cold fusion into an article about democracy in Egypt.

Score for Callipo!
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
so why do you think the current Obama regime,and the watermelons, wants to empower the socialists: China, Russia, Venezuela... by preventing the US from exploiting its own energy resources
IMO the main source of global warming is geothermal, the people are just helping it (and they do participate on global droughts with spewing of aerosols). The role of "watermelons" in AGW movement is controversial from this perspective. But we should realize, the replacement of fossil fuel sources with alternative ones wouldn't help the dictator regimes. So I'm willing to support this movement too (until the oil isn't replaced with biofuels).

With the same logics, I could call the conservatives, who are adhering on exploitation of fossil fuel sources as a best allies and helpers of Putin and Chavez's regimes, which are making money just with selling of oil. In dense aether theory every exaggerated stance becomes counterproductive and negation of itself in less or more distant perspective.
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
Do you see this logics? Mr. Chavez is indeed socialist, because he just sells the cheap oil. Conservatives want to buy the oil instead of building of expensive solar plants - so they're supporting him financially - ipso facto they're socialists too. Not with their rhetoric, but because of their effective politics. In this connection it's not accidental, Bush regime supported many autocratic regimes in less or more quiet way, just because they controlled the access to oil sources.

This way of logics renders president Obama as a quite farseeing and right-wind politician instead. He just supports the energetic independence of USA to socialistic or autocratic regimes and he should deserve a credit for it. Bush wasn't a Muslim, but he supported the Muslim regimes in much wider extent with his practical politics.

So we should see the things in their wider context before starting with cheap labelling.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (13) Nov 20, 2011
"The problem with Egypt is that there is no public trust....
"The Arab Spring was a luminous instance of democratic euphoria in a country that had no history of democracy or euphoria. What happened to the Copts this fall cast a dark cloud, which the interim government, whatever its true convictions, would do well to dispel. "
http://www.nytime...amp;_r=1
The problem with Egypt is that it is struggling with religion-mandated overpopulation which at this point requires martial law to control. What happened to the Copts is a typical manifestation of overpopulation; the attempted elimination of groups vying for resources, for food, shelter, and jobs.

Religions are designed to step in at this point; turning moderates into fanatics and martyrs.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
Do you see this logics? Mr. Chavez is indeed socialist, because he just sells the cheap oil.

I see no logic. What cheap oil?
expensive solar plants

Why are they expensive?

Socialists are socialists because they crave power.

Bush supported the free flow of oil at market prices to promote economic growth and promoted domestic energy development.

Developing alternate energy sources needs to be done from a position of economic strength. Intentionally strangling the economy limits opportunities.
Nerdyguy
1 / 5 (1) Nov 20, 2011
Conservatives want to buy the oil instead of building of expensive solar plants - so they're supporting him financially - ipso facto they're socialists too.


Ah, I never knew that purchase transactions qualified one for membership in a political party.

Can we be at least a little reasonable?
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
I never knew that purchase transactions qualified one for membership in a political party.
Of course it does. The general rule is, if you don't like some regime, don't send money to it, don't make business with it.
From this reason the wester countries applied the embargo to the Cuba, North Korea or former Soviet Union. From the same reason the former Soviet Union did broke the economical blockade of Cuba because it was socialistic country in the same way, like the SU. But the socialistic Cuba has no oil with compare to socialist Hugo Chavez. So that the conservatives don't apply the sanctions to Venezuela, only to the Cuba. Their support of oil based economy makes them supporters of socialistic regime in Venezuela.

This is why I'm saying, if you want to support the freedom and democracy and if you don't want to support the dictatorship regimes, just support the cold fusion. Don't support their oil, or you'll become a hypocrite, soon or later.
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Nov 20, 2011
Why are they expensive?
Because of cost of silicon technology and the inability to regulate the solar energy production. Solar cell technology is not as environmentally friendly, as it appears.

http://www.nrel.g...3902.pdf
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Nov 20, 2011
The US Navy is conducting the only research in the USA on cold fusion.

Cost of Si technology? Si tech is cheap.
mgb
2.8 / 5 (4) Nov 20, 2011
US fascism doesn't work ANYWHERE!!! Including good ole USA.
Can you stop killing people now????
Thanks in advance.
_nigmatic10
1 / 5 (2) Nov 21, 2011
There is a care package sitting at the borders of every country , composed of various us and us-freindly based contractors , politicians and general lemmings. All waiting to bring the light of capitalistic democracy to the masses. Of course, im sure the peoples best interest are at heart for all of it. *nods with a smirk*
Nerdyguy
1 / 5 (1) Nov 22, 2011
US fascism doesn't work ANYWHERE!!! Including good ole USA.
Can you stop killing people now????
Thanks in advance.


Your lack of logic and rationality is what doesn't work ANYWHERE. Perhaps you have something intelligent to say? Or is it just too much fun to rant on like a 12 year old girl?