Artificial gravity breaks free from science fiction

Artificial gravity breaks free from science fiction
Credit: University of Colorado at Boulder

Artificial gravity has long been the stuff of science fiction. Picture the wheel-shaped ships from films like 2001: A Space Odyssey and The Martian, imaginary craft that generate their own gravity by spinning around in space.

Now, a team from CU Boulder is working to make those out-there technologies a reality.

The researchers, led by aerospace engineer Torin Clark, can't mimic those Hollywood creations—yet. But they are imagining new ways to design revolving systems that might fit within a room of future space stations and even moon bases. Astronauts could crawl into these rooms for just a few hours a day to get their daily doses of gravity. Think spa treatments, but for the effects of weightlessness.

The group hopes that its work will one day help keep astronauts healthy as they venture into space, allowing humans to travel farther from Earth than ever before and stay away longer.

But first, Clark's team will need to solve a problem that has plagued proponents of artificial gravity for years: motion sickness.

"Astronauts experience bone loss, muscle loss, cardiovascular deconditioning and more in space. Today, there are a series of piecemeal countermeasures to overcome these issues," said Clark, an assistant professor in the Ann and H.J. Smead Department of Aerospace Engineering Sciences. "But artificial gravity is great because it can overcome all of them at once."

Strange sensation

Clark tests it out himself in a room on campus not much bigger than an ordinary office.

Credit: University of Colorado at Boulder

The engineer lies down on a metal platform that looks like a hospital gurney, part of a machine that engineers call a short-radius centrifuge. After a quick countdown, the platform begins to rotate around the room, first slowly and then faster and faster.

Nicholas Dembiczak, an undergraduate student studying aerospace engineering and research assistant in the lab, watches Clark's progress from a computer monitor in the room next door.

"You're coming on 15 rotations per minute now," he announces over a microphone.

Clark, however, doesn't seem to mind. "It's fun," he says.

It's also the closest that scientists on Earth can get to how artificial gravity in space might work.

Clark explained that the angular velocity generated by the centrifuge pushes his feet toward the base of the platform—almost as if he was standing under his own weight.

But there's a problem with this kind of gravity, one that's familiar to anyone who has visited an amusement park. If Clark turned his head to either side while spinning, he would experience a sensation known as the "cross-coupled illusion"—a disruption of the inner ear that makes you feel like you're tumbling.

"It's a very strange sensation," said Kathrine Bretl, a graduate student in Clark's lab.

Artificial gravity breaks free from science fiction
Undergraduate Nicholas Dembiczak monitors Torin Clark's progress. Credit: CU Boulder, Torin Clark

So strange that, for decades, engineers considered that kind of motion sickness a deal-breaker for artificial gravity.

Clark and Bretl, however, had other ideas.

Taking it slow

In a series of recent studies, the pair and their colleagues set out to investigate whether queasiness is really the price of admission for artificial gravity. In other words, could astronauts train their bodies to tolerate the strain that comes from being spun around in circles like hamsters in a wheel?

The team began by recruiting a group of volunteers and tested them on the centrifuge across 10 sessions.

But unlike most earlier studies, the CU Boulder researchers took things slow. They first spun their subjects at just one rotation per minute, and only increased the speed once each recruit was no longer experiencing the cross-coupled illusion.

"I present at a conference and everyone says, 'she's the one who spins people and makes them sick,'" Bretl said. "But we try to avoid instances of because the whole point of our research is to make it tolerable."

The personalized approach worked. By the end of 10th session, the study subjects were all spinning comfortably, without feeling any illusion, at an average speed of about 17 rotations per minute. That's much faster than any previous research had been able to achieve. The group reported its results in June in the Journal of Vestibular Research.

Artificial gravity breaks free from science fiction
In their experiments, Clark and his colleagues spun test subjects in a seated position, then asked them to tilt their head to the side to see if they experienced the cross-coupled illusion. Credit: CU Boulder, Torin Clark

Clark says that the study makes a strong case that artificial gravity could be a realistic option for the future of space travel.

"As far as we can tell, essentially anyone can adapt to this stimulus," he said.

In ongoing research, the researchers also bumped up the number of training sessions to 50, finding that people could spin even faster with more time.

But they also have a lot more questions to answer before you might see an artificial gravity room perched on top of the International Space Station: How long do the effects of training last, for example, and how much gravity would an astronaut need to offset the loss of muscle and bone?

Bretl, however, hopes that the research will begin to convince scientists that artificial isn't just for summer blockbusters.

"The point of our work is to try to get more people to think that maybe isn't so crazy," she said. "Maybe it has a place outside of science fiction."


Explore further

Testing the value of artificial gravity for astronaut health

More information: Xavier Simón et al. Artificial Gravity System Configurations Informed by Physiological Spin-Tolerance Research, 2018 AIAA SPACE and Astronautics Forum and Exposition (2018). DOI: 10.2514/6.2018-5358
Citation: Artificial gravity breaks free from science fiction (2019, July 3) retrieved 23 July 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2019-07-artificial-gravity-free-science-fiction.html
This document is subject to copyright. Apart from any fair dealing for the purpose of private study or research, no part may be reproduced without the written permission. The content is provided for information purposes only.
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Jul 03, 2019
Might be of interest to some.
https://drive.goo...HxpxPJhb

Jul 03, 2019
What an original idea!
Not.

Jul 03, 2019
I'm not sure if what they are addressing is the difference in artificial gravity field between the head and feet if a centrifuge is not rather large. In the video above, if the centrifuge were on a space ship, the head would be in zero gravity while the feet would feel the maximum force induced by the rotation. This is a problem even with a centrifuge as large as that shown in 2001: A Space Odyssey. I wonder if sleeping quarters where the crew could actually lay down in a simulated gravity field (beds against the outer will of the centrifuge) would be enough? Or is it necessary to simulate standing up? If the later, what these folks are doing seems somewhat silly. Only the lower part of the body gets the full effect of the artificial gravity. That doesn't seem like it would be enough.

Jul 03, 2019
Wouldn't a heavy vest or compression from the shoulders to a firm base w the subject in a vertical position be as effective?

Jul 03, 2019
Wouldn't a heavy vest or compression from the shoulders to a firm base w the subject in a vertical position be as effective?

There is no "heavy" in orbit, that's the whole point of creating "artificial gravity".

Jul 03, 2019
Eeeekk! "... Large space stations are meant to spin very slowly, and what we have is smaller, but spins very fast.".
The larger the radius the the greater the rotational velocity is required to have the same 'gravitational' acceleration. It's rather embarrassing this guy doesn't know that given this is his area of research... a_c = v^2/r

Jul 03, 2019
What about the differential effect of the force where your feet would feel the force but your head would feel no acceleration? i.e. the small radius wouldn't provide much for bone density in the neck although your ankles would be OK

Jul 03, 2019
That turntable isn't big enough.

Jul 03, 2019
Finally
An acceptance the human body has evolved with gravity
For now after 3Billion years of evolution
The human body cannot survive in a weightless environment

For to sail this vacuous sea of these galaxies is impossible weightless

Jul 03, 2019
The next stage is to spin the whole room
Increasing in increments allowing adaptation
Then the astronaut can crawl and walk round the room
Getting exercise in full earth's gravity
Instead
Of lying flat on his back

Jul 03, 2019
Finally
An acceptance the human body has evolved with gravity
For now after 3Billion years of evolution
The human body cannot survive in a weightless environment

For to sail this vacuous sea of these galaxies is impossible weightless


no one has never NOT accepted that the body evolved in gravity. what a silly comment.

Jul 03, 2019
@Shootist
I believe that granville was referring to the "Consequences" of the human body having adapted to gravity, and now cannot adapt well to weightlessness for a big length of time. Evolution did that, and now science is attempting to either change the human body somewhat (almost like reverse engineering) to allow it to 'accept' a weightless condition, or by artificial means to prevent the body from deteriorating from lack of the percentage of gravity that it is used to.
Even fish and sea mammals have to stay in motion much or all of the time to keep their bodies from slacking off.

Jul 03, 2019
They could avoid the orientation and sickness issues by designing machines that move linearly, sideways, up and down which would apply the same force.

Jul 03, 2019
how about this idea for a cheap way to test Human adaptation to inner-ear chaos?
shanghai everyone claiming to research "artificial" gravity.
& send them all off
out to sea on small sailboats
for a year

When they return, crawling onto the dock?
it will be very amusing watching them sheer & veer their way ashore
then stagger their "drunkard's walk" into the nearest tavern!

hilarity will abound
as in "abounding main"

"Today, there are a series of piecemeal countermeasures to overcome these issues," said Clark,"

First necessity Clark?
be honest with the suckers
oh i meant honored investors
yep that was what i meant (cough)
artificial gravity is a plot device for childish comicbooks & mediocre movies

imaginary gravity is actually the forcr of acceleration
it will be very funny to watch the Human test subject
(quote USAAF general "that's what corporal's are for")
as they try to walk across the spinning floor.
stop the spin?
He smashes into a bulkhead

plenty more corporals

Jul 03, 2019
That turntable isn't big enough.
says Claudius

Watching the video multiple times, I could see that Mr. Clark's body is NOT in the right position relative to the length of the centrifuge. His head is too far down from the one end and his feet are too close to the other end. His abdomen is NOT in the exact MIDDLE of the centrifuge, although it is in the middle of the table in which he is laying. It doesn't make any sense to be in such a position, as it is mimicking the arms of a spiral galaxy where his head would be in one of the arms and his feet would be closer to the galaxy centre (or the other way around?).
In any case, his vascular system would eventually have his blood flowing erratically. unless the centrifuge is made to turn the other way after a few turns.

Jul 04, 2019
I also didn't notice if Mr. Clark happened to have a 'heart monitor' on him or one for blood pressure. Those two are essential in a human experiment. Especially when they are dealing with volunteers.

Jul 04, 2019
Monitoring spin axis gravity

SEU
I also didn't notice if Mr. Clark happened to have a 'heart monitor' on him or one for blood pressure. Those two are essential in a human experiment. Especially when they are dealing with volunteers.

It is a fairly simple mechanical assembly task
To make a 20ft diameter 10ft high room
Assembled on a turn table
Where you lay against the wall
As the room is increasingly spun in increments
Firstly
As all the room is spinning with no windows you cannot see the room spinning
Then
when it is spinning
You can walk on the wall continuously
Like a hamster on its treadmill
For
This 20ft diameter x 10ft high spinning room
Attached to the space station
Is the most simplistically small attachment
That would solve all these problems
As these space station residents could run marathons round the wall

Now, that would be a first for this space station!

Jul 04, 2019
Predictably, Stubborn Error Unit fixates on the center of the human not being the center of rotation and assuming his lack of understanding means that the researchers are wrong. SEU would make a mockery of elementary physics and human anatomy by putting the subjects midsection at the axis, an idea rejected for good reason in the early days of spin gravity research. SEU's approach would make the medical effects of microgravity worse, and increase subject disorientation. Are your upper and lower body pulled in opposite directions when standing in Earth's gravity? That's what SEU would do. One of the worst effects of microgravity is the shift of fluids from the lower limbs and body toward the chest and head, distorting vision and circulation. SEU's idea would make that worse. SEU would also reduce the loading on the feet and lower legs by half, negating any real benefit in bone loss prevention. No, Eggy, the researchers have the head right where it needs to be.

Jul 04, 2019
Not "artificial gravity". Clickbait headline.

A big spinning thing attached to the ISS would be a potential disaster. Even presuming they decoupled the torque with a counter-rotating weight, if any part of the apparatus failed it would impart angular momentum to the ISS and probably tear it apart.

Maybe the next generation of space station...

Jul 04, 2019
A not-so-obvious benefit of the small centrifuge is that it would not have to be aligned with the thrust axis of a ship.

Jul 04, 2019
Large space stations are meant to spin very slowly

This is not only for space stations, but also for places like Mars with low gravity where a huge spinning structure is not an option.

Even in space stations this may not be an option because this requires a certain size of space station which is quite large (quite a bit larger than anything we've ever attempted to build).

Bone density (or conversely the development of osteoporosis) is not a linear function of gravity. For the relevant cells (osteoblasts and osteaoclasts) to do their continual remodeling work in a healthy fashion you need a certain threshold of force applied to the bone.
Below that threshold they decrease their activity (mostly the osteoblasts which build up bone mass. The osteoclasts - which eat away at the bone under low stress - continue to do their job. The combination of which results in osteoporotic bone)

Jul 04, 2019
small or large
centrifuge or centripetal
attached or detached

none if that matters

illusionary gravity is a fail before it even gets off the ground

none of that matters

obdurate fanatics will tantrum that their comicbooks promised them the illusion of artificial gravity.
& they damn well demand that such a structure be launched, assembled & tested

& no, they won't spend their own money to "make it so"

&no, they won't risk their own precious assrs to build & get the juggernaut rolling.

& no, they will not be the ones paying for restitution for damages when the station's own mass destabilizes the structure, as the inertial torque ripping it apart.

it will be almost amusing at first.
then quickly become tediously boring having to listen too their many excuses
attempting to avoid accepting any measure of responsibility for their illusions of competency.

Jul 04, 2019
At least the germ of this idea is sown

@Jayarava
@TrollBane
@antialias_physorg
@rrwillsj
In this weightless vacuum
This frail human skeleton is preying on your minds
As we all realise
This human body
Separated from it gravity
Cannot survive in its present form, weightless
For when we travel these planets
Our frail human bodies will degrade
That
After years of travelling to these planets
When we spy a planet exactly like earth
Are bodies will be too frail to beam down to this planet's surface
Because
Its Surface Gravity is 9.81m/s²

Jul 04, 2019
They've invented centrifugal force. Didn't Einstein already observe gravity and acceleration are the same?

Jul 04, 2019
A, no.

what Einstein did was show that there are a similarity of effect of an Accelerating Force (pushing) compared to Gravitational Attraction (pulling).

i.e. if you have sufficient reaction mass?
(see delta-v)
just wiki it
you could try to accelerate a spaceship fast enough to mimic a one gee field including time dilation
but only locally & temporarily
good luck on that, buddy
you'll need it.
& acceleration is not momentum
when you see that error in SF?
the author voted for trump

the major difference is when your fuel or other accelerating energies run out?
remember that delta-v?

you are screwed, blued & tattooed!

while Gravity is a Constant of Mass.
as long as the Mass holds together?
& it really, really wants too
it will continue as a Gravity Field without ever running out or turning off.
remorselessly eternal.

ignore the cinema special effects. Planets lack the Mass to blow up.
even our own Sun is too small a Mass to explode
Only the larger stars can go nova

Jul 04, 2019
Monitoring spin axis gravity

SEU
I also didn't notice if Mr. Clark happened to have a 'heart monitor' on him or one for blood pressure. Those two are essential in a human experiment. Especially when they are dealing with volunteers.

It is a fairly simple mechanical assembly task
To make a 20ft diameter 10ft high room
Assembled on a turn table
Where you lay against the wall
As the room is increasingly spun in increments
Firstly
As all the room is spinning with no windows you cannot see the room spinning
Then
when it is spinning
You can walk on the wall continuously
Like a hamster on its treadmill
For
This 20ft diameter x 10ft high spinning room
Attached to the space station
Is the most simplistically small attachment
That would solve all these problems
As these space station residents could run marathons round the wall

Now, that would be a first for this space station!
says granville

Your idea has a lot of merit. If the....

Jul 04, 2019
-contd-
If the whole room is spinning, rather than just the table, then it may alleviate the problem of dizziness as well as the fluids in the inner ear. And, as you say, it would also enable a bit of walking exercise where a person could walk in the opposite direction to that which the room is spinning...provided that there is enough space for such activity. I am all for it.

Jul 05, 2019
This so called experiment is neither new nor professionally done.

Jul 05, 2019
what Einstein did was show that there are a similarity of effect of an Accelerating Force (pushing) compared to Gravitational Attraction (pulling)
"Equivalence Principle
In the theory of general relativity, the equivalence principle is the equivalence of gravitational and inertial mass, and Albert Einstein's observation that the gravitational "force" as experienced locally while standing on a massive body (such as the Earth) is the same as the pseudo-force experienced by an observer in a non-inertial (accelerated) frame of reference."

-PHYSORG WHY ARE YOU LETTING THESE IDIOT VANDALS RUIN THIS SITE???

Jul 05, 2019
This 20ft diameter x 10ft high spinning room
Attached to the space station
Is the most simplistically small attachment
That would solve all these problems
Its like
this moron
doesn't think
anyone ever saw
the movie
2001
so he fucking steals
the jogging scene
and then
describes it
in his
idiotic
SICKENING
poetry
as though he thought of it
...............
himself.

And then the 3rd stooge says the idea has merit. In her astute opinion.
fluids in the inner ear
How long do we have to tolerate this CLOWN SHOW physorg?

Jul 05, 2019
This is where the fucking moron stole his idea from
https://youtu.be/4-iu2ce6KCw

-who got it from many other sources, which he properly referenced.

These 3 fucking morons (or perhaps only one - rrwills has lapsed into poetry because he forgot?) are going to keep trolling this site until physorg shows some consideration for its loyal regulars and bans them.
rrwillsj
granville583762
Surveillance egg unit (formerly pirouette, ritcheyguy, racist black guy, obamasocks et al)

-ban them/it. Keep banning them.

At least zephyr was a serious participant and you ban HIM whenever he shows up.

Jul 05, 2019
oh deer otto, are you lapsed off your meds again?
i apologize to the admins of this site for triggering another of otto's infantile tantrums.

my intent was a reply to Aretino comment requesting basic scientific info that evidently is not taught in his school
i was attempting
maybe i did not succeed?
in imparting a basic explanation that does not require Mathematics or Historical background

otto, do you believe that Aretino uses the term Equivalence is the same as physicists would use it?

it would be interesting to have Aretino respond
see if he can explain what he learned back to us in a coherent manner?
if so?
i would consider my explanation adequate to his needs

Aretino, find a Middle School Basic Physics textbook
there will be all sorts of fun experiments that will educate you in how the real world works

& at all times, keep in mind this safety tip
DO NOT emulate otto's history of throwing bricks up in the air
above his head
looking for magical strings of gravity

Jul 05, 2019
The easiest to manage and build of these stations would be the compact and pinion shaft supported O'Neil artificial gravity station with counter rotating pairs, quads, and so on...

the pinion shaft has support struts that go through the outer walking wall of the cylinder and allow expansion of the station with additional floors. The only problem with a concentric building schematic is that you have to ensure that the floors closest to the inner pinion shaft turn faster than that of the outer most wall enclosure of the cylinder. The keyword of that sentence is "floor", meaning you can make skating topical surface floors for these intermediate floors that move independently of the outer most wall, allowing you to increase their local speed to maintain the 10m/s2 at each floor. This would however mean that in all floors, with the exception of the outer most, you would have gully paths that would tiger stripe the floor ground where the struts would be turning through at their slower speed

Jul 05, 2019
oh deer otto
Funny this is what granville (I mean you) used to call me. You deranged freak.
Aretino, find a Middle School Basic Physics textbook
there will be all sorts of fun experiments that will educate you in how the real world works
-as opposed to what deranged freaks like granville/willis/seu(the pussytard complex) enjoy inventing for its own twisted enjoyment pleasure.

PHYSORG - match up URLs, understand that these 3 posters are all the same person, and BAN IT before it does this site any more damage. Please.

Jul 05, 2019
This 20ft diameter by 10ft high centrifuge

TrollianGhostlyOtto
a=v²/r
v²=a.r
10m/s² = 5.48m/s
Radius of space station centrifuge = 3m (20ft diameter)
Frequency of rotation = v/2pi.r = (5.48m/s)/2pi.3m = 0.3 revolution per second

So there we have it
This 20ft diameter centrifuge
Only rotates 0.3 revolutions per second
For, TrollianGhostlyOtto
10m/s
Is not absolutely necessary
As 5m/s² is 0.2 revolutions per second
Any gravity greater than zero gravity is infinitely better than zero gravity
For, TrollianGhostlyOtto
In the following nightmares of this torment of your finrot
This quiet contemplation
Under your bridge
By your babbling brook
For this magic sound of water babbling under your bridge
To trollians suffering these ravages of finrot
Is said this magic sound of babbling water has magic curative powers known only to trollians

For TrollianGhostlyOtto, we all at phys.org wish you a speedy recovery!

Jul 05, 2019
So, scumbag troll, where'd you copy THAT from? The youtube vid right?

Jul 05, 2019
Any Runner's In This Space Station

For this 20ft diameter by 10ft high centrifuge
Does not even need to spin
For with handle bars to grab hold on
Hinged at this centrifuge's centre
For 5.48m/s is 12.3mph
As you can simply run round this hamster cage at 12mph to achieve 10m/s²

For TrollianGhostlyOtto, this simplistic centrifuge gets simpler with each telling
As with each telling
These space station mariners get more exercise and create their own gravity
For TrollianGhostlyOtto, no longer does this space station need to fritter its valuable fuel
As these space mariners can sweat it of in this manual centrifuge in full earth's gravity

Jul 05, 2019
so now
the asshole troll
steals from
skylab vids

-Anything for a rise out of the adults eh?
who do you think you're fooling you inbred?
I can see
Why you hate
Your parents so-

Jul 05, 2019
otto deer, do your keepers even know you've broken out of your cexhibit?
again

& it is sad. observing your simian behavior as you project your self image of loathsome inferiority all over granny

sad

Jul 05, 2019
It's called Science, SpookyOtto. Something you are not familiar with.
Oh, and I have decided to look up one of the names you have been calling me in your sick mind.
Pirouette sounds interesting. I'm not going to bother with the other names as they are probably as weird as YOU are.

Jul 05, 2019
Pratyeka, i apologize for not answering sooner to your comment. we had to get the otto monkey back into it's cage.

Pratyeka, you are correct
there is no "weight" in micro to zero-gravity

but there is mass.
i think when people are discussing Human bodily exercises in that environment?
they are talking about using a stationary bicycle.
that also exercises the arms & maybe waist bends?
at the same time also work the
shoulder to neck muscles

i think that the other set of exercises would be reistance training.
with heavy weights velcroed to parts of the body being worked.
as well as working against belts, pulleys, springs set to high resistance?

to make up for the lack of weight with bodily effort

probably others i am forgetting

Jul 06, 2019
Predictably, Stubborn Error Unit fixates on the center of the human not being the center of rotation and assuming his lack of understanding means that the researchers are wrong. SEU would make a mockery of elementary physics and human anatomy by putting the subjects midsection at the axis, an idea... SEU's approach would make the medical effects of microgravity worse, and increase subject disorientation. Are your upper and lower body pulled in opposite directions when standing in Earth's gravity? That's what SEU would do. One of the worst effects of microgravity is the shift of fluids from the lower limbs and body toward the chest and head, distorting vision and circulation. SEU's idea would make that worse. SEU would also reduce the loading on the feet and lower legs by half, negating any real benefit in bone loss prevention. No, Eggy, the researchers have the head right where it needs to be.
says TB

Perhaps you're right about the human body. I stand corrected.

Jul 06, 2019
Tis a sad day indeed

otto deer, do your keepers even know you've broken out of your cexhibit?
again

& it is sad. observing your simian behaviour as you project yourself image of loathsome inferiority all over granny

sad

It's called Science, SpookyOtto. Something you are not familiar with.
Oh, and I have decided to look up one of the names you have been calling me in your sick mind.
Pirouette sounds interesting. I'm not going to bother with the other names as they are probably as weird as YOU are.

But, still
Look on the bright side
All the more interesting tasty titbits
For simply stumps
Taking time out
So to write
This biography of these goings on this phys.org

Jul 06, 2019
There's no other way

For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7x10+19 tons
At 1/6 earth's gravity
Gives a clear indication there is no other way

Centrifuges are the only solution to combat weightlessness
Oh, and that suggestion of rrwillsj
For rrwillsj's suggestion is linear acceleration

rrwillsj
what Einstein did was show that there are a similarity of effect of an Accelerating Force (pushing) compared to Gravitational Attraction (pulling).

i.e. if you have sufficient reaction mass?
(see delta-v)
just wiki it
you could try to accelerate a spaceship fast enough to mimic a one gee field including time dilation

For as rrwillsj points out
You simply accelerate you space ship at 9.81m/s²
For
When you have completed half your journey
You
Simply turn your space ship round 180°
And your acceleration is deceleration
As you travel this vacuum at an accelerating rate under full earth's gravity

Jul 06, 2019
The 3 stooges
Shit on these threads
Every single day
And call it art
No, science
Like the god jesus is it
3 sick people
Or
One sicko with
3 intestinal parasites
Only its parents
Know
For
Sure

-sorry the best I could do-

Jul 06, 2019
These threescore years and ten of these biblical prophecies

For this emergeths of this almost biblical word - score
From ancient traditions long since lost in these mists of time
For score is from those mists of time
The late Old English, scoru as in twenty
From Old Norse, skor
To mark a notch, an incision as in a rift in rock
For those in these modern times
Who reacheth
This ancient age of fourscore years and sixteen
Foreth how evereth we accumulate these scoreth years of twenty
Right up to thateth ultimateth year
Wheneth old father time calleths it a day
We still feel the same
As in those far of lazy hazy days of yore
We still feel the same as we did when we turned sweet sixteen

The Ghost of Otto 1923

Jul 06, 2019
one of the major failures of official planning for deep space exploration
as well as an abiding failure among science fiction writers?

is to consider the economics of what is cost effective in mission planning

"accelerate you space ship at 9.81m/s²
completed half your journey
turn your space ship round 180°
(for) deceleration"

why?
why turn around?
why decelerate?

we go to all the expensive troubles of launching & assembling in orbit a ship capable of deep space travel.

we get it manned or robotized
with all the necessities for long voyages
at tremendous expense!

Then proceed to consume time with an intricate dance of planetary flybys to take advantage of gravitational sling for acceleration

then spend the time using near-by masses to your target destination
pulling the vessel back & slow it to a speed sufficient to orbit & land on the target body.

- cont'd -

Jul 06, 2019
- cont'd -

what i would suggest instead is a sophisticated version of ab aircraft carrier
if you are willing to plan ahead for decades & even centuries?

starting with launching a basic robot-vessel
slung in & out & around the Earrh-Luna coupling to start building up acceleration.

whenever, at this early stage
it's course brings the ship into Low Luna Orbit? Ancillary unoys slung around our Moon to get a matching speed
could rendezvous with the main body
afdding equipment & more resources
including squadrons of drone surveyors & robotic prospectors
as those are being developed, improved & manufactured

once the carrier is "slow" enough to break Earth-Luna orbit?
it will fall system-inward to first rendezvous with Venus, then Mercury
dropping off surveyors & prospectors at each planet

& why not take advantage to send probes to the Lagrange points of all the inner planets?

- cont'd -

Jul 06, 2019
Rrwillsj, when energy of propulsion is no obstacle

Rrwillsj
"accelerate you space ship at 9.81m/s²
completed half your journey
turn your space ship round 180°
(for) deceleration"


For, rrwillsj
Every second
That this ship accelerates
It increases its velocity
By 22.5mph every second
For to this advantage of speed
3600s times 22.5mph = 81,000mph in one hour
For rrwillsj, this is the beauty of your idea
For every hour that passes
In 1day, 24hrs times 81,000mph = 194,000 mph
For on a 12month month journey
In 6months, 183days times 194,400mph = 355,752,000mph

For in 6months of a 12month journey
You are travelling at 356million mph
So you can see rrwillsj
Why you have to about tail
Because
There is no way of slowing down otherwise

But, rrwillsj
This does not detract from your brilliant idea!

p.s. for all this speed glorious speed occurs under full earth's gravity

Jul 06, 2019
In this mean time we can utilise this David and Goliath sling shot

As we have no propulsion engine worthy to travel these planets
For, rrwillsj
As you are over flowing with ideas of late
This gravitational slingshot
At no propellant cost
Will take us round the planets
And back again
Given time

Jul 06, 2019
- cont'd -
Getting pulled in by Sol
at perihelion
the carrier's speed will be doubled
slung away from the Sun
have it maneuver by Venus to steer past E-L
to rendezvous with timed launches of additional supplies & the newest classes of drones & robots

maybe perhaps the possibility of including manned capsules?
this E-L flyby to take the vessel within reach of Mars

using that flyby to swing by some of the lager asteroids

dropping off probes & maybe Humans while passing Mars & the bug rocks?

from the Belt, circling back to Mars to slow down enough to reach E-L.

Again to catch-on-the-fly new equipment, supplies
& drop off personnel rotating home?

Again the dive inward to skim our Sun.
drop off new probes while passing V & M & their L points.

At perihelion as the carrier is slung outward
again the cumulative speed of the vessel doubles

back pass E-L
resupply & man-up
then Mars & Ceres

continuing outbound for Jupiter & it;s best moon, Callisto
my fave destination


Jul 06, 2019
Speed glorious speed

Rrwillsj
This constant accelerative alternative to earthly gravity is fascinating
For one year of accelerating at 22.5mph every second = 711million mph
For on and on we go
For as these years of galactic travel proceed
In ten years we are travelling 7,115,040,000mph

In round terms
On a 20year journey
In 10 years we are travelling 7billion mph

When it's time to turn tail to slow down all in full earth's gravity

p.s. from little acorns giant oaks grow, all from this velocity of earthly gravity

Jul 06, 2019
This casual by the bye at this Martian bus stop

Rrwillsj
dropping off probes & maybe Humans while passing Mars & the bug rocks?

When does the return sling shot Martian departure ship arrive?

Lest we forget
This is only possible in earthly gravity
For flying in gravitational sling shot humans are weightless
So there's a hole in your bucket dear Liza
So fix it dear Henry, dear Henry, fix it
So how do we achieve earthy gravity in weightless gravitational sling shot gravity, dear rrwillsj?

Are we back to this centrifuge again forever travelling in circles
For
Your linear acceleration of inertial mass accelerating at earthly gravity solved this artificial gravity

Jul 06, 2019
TANSTAFL
every action has a cost
gravity assist is not free
you'll pay with Time or some other payment past due

if you run into something?
hoo boy! will you pay

perpetual motion woohooey is for the suckers

i wish i was smart enough to be able to claim credit & patent royalties for Gravity Assist
wiki it
remember Arthur Clarke's mistake of not patenting communication satellites?

as for the return voyages?
check the schedule.

though here in the age of global fascist domination?
benny the moose solution for the trains not being on time?

was to print new schedules
of course he had to keep doing that as the new times kept sliding away & were quickly rendered pointless
under putinism?
the damn trains will arrive whenever they damn well please!

& nobody have you permission to complain

Jul 06, 2019
Sling shot and orbital paths of comets

Rrwillsj
if you run into something?
hoo boy! will you pay

perpetual motion woohooey is for the suckers

i wish i was smart enough to be able to claim credit & patent royalties for Gravity Assist

Orbital paths and sling shot paths are identical
For
Like perpetual motion, orbital paths exist for billions of years
As slingshot returns the same energy to the next slingshot
As close as it is possible to achieve conservation of gravitational potential and kinetic energy
A fancy way of describing perpetual motion in gravitational slingshot, rrwillsj

Jul 06, 2019
"damn it, Spock!
why can't we do Immelmann's?"

Jul 06, 2019
If we were lumps of rock
"damn it, Spock!
why can't we do Immelmann's?"

We could perform these Immelmann loops as comets return every century or two
For rocks are a canny breed
They virtually live for ever
Return every hundreds of years
And time never seems to tire their stony exterior
If only we were as resilient as these stony orbital's
Then we could board these slingshot ships for the ride of centuries
There alway is a but to spoil this dream
For there is a but
A very big BUT
Human life span for space travel is in our mid twenties ending in our mid fifties
For we like a comfortable retirement
so this BUT
Only leaves us thirty years for to travel these planets
Thirty years
Does not give sufficient time to slingshot to the closest planets
Never mind returning to retire
For a rock never retires, it just returns in centuries to come

Jul 06, 2019
@granville
@rrwillsj
Beautiful concepts all. And perhaps in decades and centuries to come, such concepts will be realised, as long as humans begin to work together as ONE SPECIE and one race - the human race. As President Ronald Reagan once alluded to humanity coming together in the face of an imminent invasion by an outside alien force, it would take such a threat for humans to understand that 'no man is an island', and that all of the human specie must pull together to be strong, if such a future as you two have described is to BE.

But at this time, humans are too stupid and self-centred, with only some fabulous exceptions, to come together long enough to make it happen. Looking at the quality of human in this very website, such as SpookyOtto, I dread the kind of future if his kind has any influence on it.
But there are humans that are seriously working on the right future, and we applaud their efforts and some of us will help them along, if they need to solve a problem.

Jul 07, 2019
ONE SPECIE one race - the human race by Surveillance_Egg_Unit

Beautiful concepts all
Perhaps in decades and centuries to come
Such concepts will be realised
As long as humans begin to work together as ONE SPECIE and one race
The human race
As President Ronald Reagan once alluded
To humanity coming together
In the face of an imminent invasion
By an outside alien force
It would take such a threat
For humans to understand
That no man is an island
That all of the human specie
Must pull together to be strong
If such a future as you two have described is to BE
But at this time
Humans are too stupid and self-centred
With only some fabulous exceptions
To come together long enough to make it happen
Looking at the quality of human in this very website
Such as SpookyOtto
I dread the kind of future
If his kind has any influence on it
But there are humans
That are seriously working
On the right future
And we applaud their efforts
And some of us will help them along
If they need to solve a problem

Jul 07, 2019
"spe·cie
/ˈspēSHē,ˈspēsē/
noun
money in the form of coins rather than notes"

-WHAT a clusterfuck.

Of course SEU the paid trolle antagonist knew what the singular of species was, which is why she used it to bait people.

What's your mission, troll? Why are you and your 2 friends commandeering this site?
Rrwillsj
This constant accelerative alternative to earthly gravity is fascinating
For one year of accelerating at 22.5mph every second = 711million mph
-And of course THIS retard knows full well that there are sites with 1G accel/decel calculators for any destination you wish to choose, but he chose to troll instead.

WHY IS PHYSORG ALLOWING THIS??

An excuse to end the comments section perhaps?

Jul 07, 2019
deer otto
as you are gifting the monitoring Psych students with thesis gold?
i'm rather certain the site admins permit you & bemmi & sillyegghead & hacksdad & ponyboy & shotownfoot full reign to spew your filth & ignorance all over these comments

Jul 07, 2019
spe•cie spēSHē spēsē - by TheGhostofOtto1923

For GhostlyOtto - is this your new avatar in the making?
Or
Hatheth GhostlyOtto found this new calling
Of poetry unknown to science and poets
For this is poetry most rare
An almost Gaelic poetic air

Jul 07, 2019
Time for everyone to learn scientific notation without superscripts.
For example:
"For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7x10+19 tons ..."
should be "For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7E+19 tons ..." or "For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7*10^19 tons ..."
In some programing languages 'e' rather than 'E' is used
but 'E' is preferable to remove confusion with the number
e= 2.7182818... .

Jul 07, 2019
Time to face reality GhostlyOtto, what are you trying to achieve
It's always the same isn't it GhostlyOtto, browsing this site inevitably comes across your comments as they always have the same theme as the ones you have just left, they're not actually comments but variation on a theme of expletives of various degrees where they could be your ideas, insights opinions but instead they always descend into despair and despondency of a grumpy old man shouting at any one who makes a comment as though everyone is an undesirable passing by your front gate that you have to run out shouting obscenities at them GhostlyOtto

Is this what your life has come to GhostlyOtto - A Grumpy Old Man

p.s. sounds familiar GhostlyOtto, a blast from the past perhaps as though in another incarnation, an
other avatar, what is coincidental GhostlyOtto old bean, this incarnations from july ninth, two thousand and eighteen for your quasi neutral as two peas in a pod

Jul 07, 2019
Mathematical notation

lrshultis
Time for everyone to learn scientific notation without superscripts.
For example:
"For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7x10+19 tons ..."
should be "For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7E+19 tons ..." or "For the moon at 2000miles in diameter
7*10^19 tons ..."
In some programing languages 'e' rather than 'E' is used
but 'E' is preferable to remove confusion with the number
e= 2.7182818... .

7x10+19tons written in calculator notation is 7.e19tons
well in Calc98 that is
if anyone wants to confirm lrshultis claim
that it is not correct to write 7x10+19tons
speak out now, or forever hold your peace

Jul 07, 2019
At least zephyr was a serious participant and you ban HIM whenever he shows up.

I do miss the Zeph-man...

Jul 07, 2019
Mathematical notation in Unicode superscript

for if you write 7x10+19 to the superscript 19 in word
then paste it in phys.orgs comment box
like that song, little box's; they all come out the same as 7x10+19tons
as on this Unicode website they have not got a superscript for 19
but they have for 9, as in 7x10⁹tons
for lrshultis, if only phys.orgs comment box would accept Words superscript
life would be so much simpler
but then lrshultis, life is never that simple
http://www.alanwo...pts.html

Jul 07, 2019
Whydening Gyre
At least zephyr was a serious participant and you ban HIM whenever he shows up.

I do miss the Zeph-man...

memory is our time machine WG
emulate old Zephir_fan for these days of old
will bring these memories flooding back for us all
it is interesting looking back at these past comments, WG
for they were from a gentler age when we were young, full of vigour and optimism


Jul 07, 2019
when i was young & optimistic
it always bothered me when the numbers didn't agree trying to reconcile figures from different registers & calculators?

then i read an article the folk's from Texas Inst admitted that two calculators, same model, same circuit design, same production line
could produce different figures past the fourth decimal place.

about this time reading a collection of Lewis Carrol
& trying to work my way through his more intricate math puzzels

i was talking to a neighbor, who was retired from several engineering careers
he scoffed at my puzzlement of irrational numbers

telling me that engineering students have the same crisis of faith
from his own senior engineers he had learned the secret
"fudge the remainder"
"if the bridge bears up & carries the traffic? fudge it!
if the airplane flies up
& lands safely? fudge it!"

"& get your ass on to the next job!... the concrete won't pour it'sself!"

Jul 07, 2019
when i was young & optimistic


You still didn't write proper English I bet, with no capital to start a sentence and no period mark to end a sentence.

Jul 07, 2019
old coot....
care less careless carefree!
proper english is what ever the fornication & unlawful carnal knowledge i say it is

wherever direction the whimsy of the always mutating language may bear me

it ain't not, even when naughty
knot a fossil language
as spoken by
antiquatedly distressed
coprolites such as yourself

frankly & ernestly
i am enjoying myself
experimenting with
new format to try
& fit within
the limitations imposed
hereinupon these comments

yet still be able to express
the novelty of ideas
& satirical humor

if that offends you?
great!
get in line with everyone else
whom wishes to whinge
to the skypilot
go over to the corner
& join otto & sillyegg
in gnashing of false teeth
to join their wailing to
the fetish images
they are crouched before
while rending your sackcloth
of self-righteousness

old coot, you fail to impress me
neither with your primitive tribal taboohooing customs
nor are you successful
at dictating any rational
measure of reality

Jul 08, 2019
In addition to the usual rotational artificial gravity, for deep space excursions, a 1-G constant acceleration could provide artificial gravity for the first half of the trip, and a 1-G deceleration could provide it for the second half.

Jul 08, 2019
Tim. wiki "Delta-v"
then please get back to us
as to how you intend
to accomplish that

there are a lot of people
who are desperate
to believe
that such missions
are possible
without bankrupting
the Global economy

Jul 08, 2019
Trying to figure out why there are people denying and lying about a method of strengthening astronauts' bones. You want astronauts to die? Are you serious? If so you're psychotic. Maybe the astronauts should wish you die from a painful skin infection from global warming.

Jul 08, 2019
At least zephyr was a serious participant and you ban HIM whenever he shows up.

I do miss the Zeph-man...
He comments over on the rossi e-cat site
https://e-catworl...c-motor/

-alive and unwell-

Jul 08, 2019
when i was young & optimistic


You still didn't write proper English I bet, with no capital to start a sentence and no period mark to end a sentence.
Yeah you can tell the depth of bullshit by the effort they make to pretty it up.

WHY are people this sick I wonder? And why do they insist on showing it off as if it were something to be proud of?

But like I say, I think these 3 mouseketeers are here on a mission. Imagine coming here your first time and seeing threads chock full of this idiotic garbage. Who would stay?

Granville
Rrwillsj
SEU

-block them and keep them blocked. Recommend this in every thread.

Jul 08, 2019
poor transparent otto
constantly exposing himself
to public ridicule
as his banshee comments
expose his deep-rooted
insecurity about his inferiority

otto is but a hollow moan from the grave
rattling the chains of his ignorance
as he slimes the internet

Jul 10, 2019
Lol i certainly wouldn't like to be a test subject

Jul 12, 2019
There's a simple answer to the motion sickness problem: VR. Simply put a VR device on while in the centrifuge and you won't feel any inconsistency between what you see and what you feel. No more motion sickness.

Jul 14, 2019
heck but the fluid in the ears will sense the motion

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