Seeds of giant galaxies formed in the early universe

Seeds of giant galaxies formed in the early universe
Figure 1: A wide field-of-view false-color image of a massive quiescent galaxy taken by Surpime-Cam on the Subaru Telescope (main image) and a high resolution close-up (inset) by IRCS (Infrared Camera and Spectrograph) on the Subaru Telescope. The yellow circle shows the point spread function of this observation corrected with the AO188 adaptive optics system. Credit: NAOJ

Modern galaxies show a wide diversity, including dwarf galaxies, irregular galaxies, spiral galaxies, and massive elliptical galaxies. This final type, massive elliptical galaxies, provides astronomers with a puzzle. Although they are the most massive galaxies with the most stars, almost all of their stars are old. At some time during the past the progenitors of massive elliptical galaxies must have rapidly formed many stars and then stopped for some reason.

Fortunately, the finite speed of light gives scientists a way to turn back the clock and view the early universe. If a galaxy is located 12 billion light-years away, then light from that galaxy must have traveled for 12 billion years before it reached Earth. This means that the light we observe today must have left the galaxy 12 billion years ago. In other words the light is the image of what the galaxy looked like 12 billion years ago. By observing galaxies at various distances from Earth, astronomers can reconstruct the history of the universe.

An international team including researchers from the National Astronomical Observatory of Japan (NAOJ), the University of Tokyo, and Copenhagen University used data from NAOJ's Subaru Telescope and other telescopes to search for galaxies located 12 billion light-years away. Among this sample they identified massive quiescent galaxies, meaning massive galaxies without active star formation, as the probable progenitors of modern giant elliptical galaxies. It is surprising that mature giant galaxies already existed very early, when the universe was only about ~13% of its current age.

Seeds of giant galaxies formed in the early universe
Figure 2: The stellar mass (x-axis) and size (y-axis) relation derived assuming that the most massive galaxies at each epoch are the progenitors of the modern most massive giant elliptical galaxies (red). Gray solid and dashed curves show the size evolution driven by many minor mergers and major mergers, respectively. Credit: NAOJ

The team then used the Subaru Telescope to perform follow-up observations in for the 5 brightest massive quiescent galaxies located 12 billion light-years away.

The results show that although the massive quiescent galaxies are compact (only about 2% the size of the Milky Way) they are almost as heavy as modern galaxies. This means that to become modern giant elliptical galaxies they must puff up about 100 times in size, but only increase in mass by about 5 times. Comparing the observations to toy models, the team showed that this would be possible if the growth was driven, not by major mergers where two similar galaxies merge to form a larger one, but by minor mergers where a large galaxy cannibalizes smaller ones.

"We are very excited about the implications of our findings," explains corresponding author Mariko Kubo, a post-doctoral researcher at NAOJ. "But we are now at the resolution limit of existing telescopes. The superior spatial resolution of the Thirty Meter Telescope currently under development will allow us to study the morphologies of distant galaxies more precisely. For more distant beyond 12 billion light-years, we need the next generation James Webb Space Telescope."


Explore further

Explosive birth of stars swells galactic cores

More information: Mariko Kubo et al. The Rest-frame Optical Sizes of Massive Galaxies with Suppressed Star Formation at z ∼ 4, The Astrophysical Journal (2018). DOI: 10.3847/1538-4357/aae3e8
Journal information: Astrophysical Journal

Provided by Subaru Telescope
Citation: Seeds of giant galaxies formed in the early universe (2018, December 21) retrieved 20 June 2019 from https://phys.org/news/2018-12-seeds-giant-galaxies-early-universe.html
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Dec 21, 2018
It is surprising that mature giant galaxies already existed very early, when the universe was only about ~13% of its current age.

Yes, certainly surprising to the common merger maniac, bent on fantasy.

This means that to become modern giant elliptical galaxies they must puff up about 100 times in size, but only increase in mass by about 5 times.
...this would be possible if the growth was driven, not by major mergers where two similar galaxies merge to form a larger one, but by minor mergers where a large galaxy cannibalizes smaller ones.

Or more likely if galaxies grow naturally from within over time, expanding radially outward through dispersion from the massive core, forming most of the new matter therein.

https://phys.org/...ays.html

But this is too much for creationist astronomers, where matter is presumed created in only a single magic moment. Strike 59...

Dec 22, 2018
tux dear boy Ypu are confusing sloppy writing with "The Final! Conclusive! Answer! To Life! The Universe! & Everything!"

You are making the same mistake whoever wrote the article did. Probably a sophomore Eng Lit major typing these up for a work/study program.

Neither of you understand the difference between "Age" of a star & it's energy level dependent on Mass & elemental constituents.

The same error as confusing the temperature of water with it's energy level.

I wonder why these press releases are never edited by someone competent in the subject matter?

Dec 22, 2018
There are some very complicated issues of galaxy formation. Unfortunately, here is the same problem as with the stars. The origin of galaxies remains unclear, in spite of huge activity in the field. What the "formation" means? It means that we have the material that is assembling into galaxies.
https://www.acade...ome_From
https://www.acade...rvations

Dec 22, 2018
"It is surprising that mature giant galaxies already existed very early, when the universe was only about ~13% of its current age."

.........it can only mean the Universe is a lot more than 14 billion years old.

Dec 22, 2018
"For more distant galaxies beyond 12 billion light-years, we need the next generation James Webb Space Telescope."

What happens when the new telescope finds spiral galaxies 15, 20, ... 30 billion light years away?

That JWST is going to be bad for someone's business.

Dec 22, 2018


But this is too much for creationist astronomers, where matter is presumed created in only a single magic moment. Strike 59...


It is obviously too much for a clown who is well embedded in LaViolette's Sphincter Stargate! Give up, you cretin.

Dec 22, 2018
What happens when the new telescope finds spiral galaxies 15, 20, ... 30 billion light years away?

That JWST is going to be bad for someone's business.


Yep. Pseudoscience cranks are going to suffer.


Dec 22, 2018
Well, somebody screwed that one up. z = 4 doesn't come out to 12 billion light years away any way I can see, in either proper or comoving distance.

Dec 22, 2018
The results show that although the massive quiescent galaxies are compact (only about 2% the size of the Milky Way) they are almost as heavy as modern galaxies.

More likely, they are similar in size to modern versions, just not observable.
& from:
https://phys.org/...tml#nRlv
"Massive elliptical galaxies are believed to be formed from collisions of disk galaxies," said Ken-ichi Tadaki. "But, it is uncertain whether all the elliptical galaxies have experienced galaxy collision. There may be an alternative path."

See my comment thereunder. And for a primer, long before any doubt about the fantasy model:
https://phys.org/...ars.html
Yes, the data will continue to upset the fantasy. How long can you hold out??
For more insight:
https://phys.org/...arp.html

https://phys.org/...ies.html

Dec 22, 2018
What happens when the new telescope finds spiral galaxies 15, 20, ... 30 billion light years away?

That JWST is going to be bad for someone's business.


Yep. Pseudoscience cranks are going to suffer.


Wo, so someone could hand you a blue whale and you'd call it a potted plant.

Dec 22, 2018
"For more distant galaxies beyond 12 billion light-years, we need the next generation James Webb Space Telescope."

What happens when the new telescope finds spiral galaxies 15, 20, ... 30 billion light years away?

That JWST is going to be bad for someone's business.
.......It sure will be, Pop-Cosmology.

Dec 22, 2018
Well, somebody screwed that one up. z = 4 doesn't come out to 12 billion light years away any way I can see, in either proper or comoving distance.


schneibo, I've left you a couple of notes on a couple other threads you might be interested in.....in short, moderators should not be in the business of changing the wordings of their own as well as other peoples Comments here in this chatroom, so knock it off.

Dec 22, 2018
Well, somebody screwed that one up. z = 4 doesn't come out to 12 billion light years away any way I can see, in either proper or comoving distance.


schneibo, I've left you a couple of notes on a couple other threads you might be interested in.....in short, moderators should not be in the business of changing the wordings of their own as well as other peoples Comments here in this chatroom, so knock it off.
.....by the way, I'm daring you to delete any of the Comments I've made about your moderating activities in this chatroom & how you have been found to be one who is making changes to other readers Comment posts as well as your own when you make an out & out dead wrong calculation in challenging me to divide a whole number by zero. Ive explained your indiscretion over in the Singularity article, I've also furthered my complaint to.......

Dec 22, 2018
"It is surprising that mature giant galaxies already existed very early, when the universe was only about ~13% of its current age."

.........it can only mean the Universe is a lot more than 14 billion years old.
says Benni

That is also MY assumption. It is quite possible that Astrophysicists etc. have made egregious miscalculations in their maths and "observations", but couldn't quite correct their mistakes since it would have been already published and disseminated, as well as mortifying to have to admit to it.
There would need to be a massive corrective undertaking - IF those scientists are honest and wish to get at the whole truth and go public with it.

Dec 23, 2018
"It is surprising that mature giant galaxies already existed very early, when the universe was only about ~13% of its current age."

.........it can only mean the Universe is a lot more than 14 billion years old.
says Benni

That is also MY assumption. It is quite possible that Astrophysicists etc. have made egregious miscalculations in their maths and "observations", but couldn't quite correct their mistakes since it would have been already published and disseminated, as well as mortifying to have to admit to it.
There would need to be a massive corrective undertaking - IF those scientists are honest and wish to get at the whole truth and go public with it.


The JWT will pick up from where Hubble leaves off. It will find galaxies of the age of this right at the 13.7 billion year limit, think z-redshift coinciding with the supposed day of the Bigo Bango. A lot of Pop-Cosmology aficionados will rue the day the JWT ever went into orbit around the Sun.

Dec 23, 2018
Oh gracious me. I can't decide who is the more ignorant prat, benni. seu or tux?

Choices, choices...

Okay boys, it is obvious none of you understand the difference between temperature & energy level. & why that difference is relevant in context to the research described in this article.

It is also clear that you do not understand the difference between Population I, Pop II & Pop III stars.

"Mature stars" Really?
What a bonehead description.

Dec 23, 2018
Oh gracious me. I can't decide who is the more ignorant prat, benni. seu or tux?

Perhaps you should take a close look in the mirror? Intellectual egomaniacs have already got it all figured out, by their own declaration. Nothing more to learn.

Dec 23, 2018
This is very interesting, but of course it is also confirming the current cosmology as well as galaxy formation models including differentiating between minor and major mergers.

@DaSchneib: 12 billion years old = 24 billion light years out due to cosmological expansion.

Why then do we have to wade through pseudoscience trash that the trolling authors must know is merely false and trolling? Oh well, to the work chops:

"merger maniac ... similar in size to modern versions, just not observable."

False. The article show illustrations that show mergers happen and size are observable.

"... it can only mean the Universe is a lot more than 14 billion years old."

False. The article show illustrations that galaxy formation fit the observed age of the universe.

- tbctd-

Dec 23, 2018
-ctd-

"What happens when the new telescope finds spiral galaxies 15, 20, ... 30 billion light years away?"

Partly false question due to possibly unwillingly misunderstanding cosmology, partly uninteresting question due to possibly willingly misunderstanding cosmology, partly misleading since spiral galaxies comes readily out of modern cosmological simulations at correct ages - the problem was large ellipticals.

The current problem is that galaxies are found already from 12 billion years back or 24 billion light years away due to cosmological expansion [@z=4 and flat space: http://www.astro....alc.html ; note the figure for universe age is old, so expect only two accurate figures]. 20 % more distance is unlikely to upset more (but of course it could happen too).

Dec 23, 2018
To add some Christmas sparkle

Theses electrons and protons are infinitely older than 15billion light years
orbiting telescopes have only just recently gone into orbit
we are only scratching the surface
the fact electrons have Yotta life spans proves the point
the proton and its scrumptious electron
with the patter of little feet
have been creating little electrons and protons 1000s of billions of years before we made telescopes
capable of peering a miserly 14billion light years
there are infinite galaxies waiting to be found in the infinite vacuum

We have been sitting on our behind for far too long since our 250,000mile trip to the moon
the immense distance has gone to our heads
its made us giddy
just think
we travelled
250,000miles
to the moon
and now we think we know the universe inside out
like the back of our hands
but that was 40years ago
And now were venturing on the dark side
The universe is bigger than a BH simulation
It's time to think Big

Dec 23, 2018
Partly false question due to possibly unwillingly misunderstanding cosmology, partly uninteresting question due to possibly willingly misunderstanding cosmology, partly misleading since spiral galaxies comes readily out of modern cosmological simulations


You are so totally clueless as to be making statements like: "willingly misunderstanding cosmology" , "unwillingly misunderstanding cosmology", & the most outlandish of all "comes readily out of modern cosmological simulations".

Yeah, Pop-Cosmology "simulations", like Infinite Gravity at the surface of a Finite stellar mass & Infinite density at it's center, the Pop-Cosmology definition of a black hole. Simulated where?

Modern Cosmology is filled with the nonsense of Perpetual Motion & you're just one more neophyte who has been sucked in by it. Take a Thermodynamics course & learn something about ENTROPY before pretending you are qualified to be a teacher to those of us far better educated than you.

Dec 23, 2018
@torbjorn, I'm familiar enough with cosmology to know that in the current epoch, we can see stuff that was within the horizon at the Big Bang that is now about 40-45 billion light years away, but that's not what I was asking. I wanna be able to *calculate* it. What bothered me was, neither proper nor comoving distance seems to agree that z = 4 is 12 billion light years.

Dec 23, 2018
It's worth mentioning that since there has been cosmic expansion since the Big Bang, things that we see that appear to be X number of light years away are actually a great deal farther now; that's where they were when they emitted the light we see now, not where they are now. As a result of this, we know that the minimum current size of the universe is 80-90 billion light years across. In addition to this, there are consequences, called "domain walls," to there being empty space or something different from what we see within about 10 billion light years (much less than that, of course, before cosmic expansion) of this. So we can confidently state that the universe is at absolute minimum 100-110 billion light years across. That means the farthest things we can see are now about 50-55 billion light years away. They weren't when the light left them, but they are now.

What I am talking with @torbjorn about is how to calculate distances using redshifts, on different coordinate systems.

Dec 23, 2018
And you too, being filled with the nonsense of Modern Cosmology's Perpetual Motion Universe are just one more neophyte who has been sucked in by it. Take a Thermodynamics course & learn something about ENTROPY before pretending that just because you are a Physorg site Moderator that you are also qualified to be a teacher to those of us far better educated in science than you & who know better than tp post slop & swill nonsense like this:

In addition to this, there are consequences, called "domain walls," to there being empty space or something different from what we see within about 10 billion light years (much less than that, of course, before cosmic expansion) of this.
......you as a Physorg site Moderator don't even know what you just said, much less be able to explain it to any of us in a lucid manner.

So what are you Physorg website Moderators paid schneibo? Or do you just do it as a freebie to some personal end?


Dec 23, 2018
Schneibo, I sent you a Report for your own worthless Comment. Nothing like the fox guarding the Physorg chicken coop. Oh, and thank you for the note:

"Thank you. Moderator will review your report and remove this post if inappropriate."

When are you deleting my account?


Dec 23, 2018
It's worth mentioning that since there has been cosmic expansion since the Big Bang, things that we see that appear to be X number of light years away are actually a great deal farther now; that's where they were when they emitted the light we see now, not where they are now.

This has been the problem right there. This extra "inflation", its really just a made up thing, a fantasy, a kludge, to try and explain away the obvious observations. To force fit a made up age of 13 billion years, to force fit an "expansion" of space. And keeping this up - it will start to look more and more like all those years spent on force fitting epicycles.

But I can't believe this period of the modern epicycles will last another 200 years.

Paraphrased, as Max Planck so morbidly put: "Science advances one funeral at a time".

Dec 23, 2018
@arc, this isn't "inflation." This is just the normal cosmic expansion we can see from the redshift.

Inflation is something completely different, and you shouldn't get them confused if you want to talk about cosmology.

Dec 23, 2018
Oh gracious me. I can't decide who is the more ignorant prat, benni. seu or tux?

Choices, choices...

Okay boys, it is obvious none of you understand the difference between temperature & energy level. & why that difference is relevant in context to the research described in this article.

It is also clear that you do not understand the difference between Population I, Pop II & Pop III stars.

"Mature stars" Really?
What a bonehead description.
says rrwilliejoe

Uh where exactly did you read any comment from Benni or anyone else, saying/referring to "Mature STARS? I have looked over all the comments by Benni, and nowhere has he referred to "mature STARS", only mature GALAXIES, rrwilliejoe. Perhaps you should try to wean yourself off those addictive pills, williejoe, as it looks like you are either hallucinating, or following in your lying buttbudy, DaScheide's footsteps.

Dec 23, 2018
What happens when the new telescope finds spiral galaxies 15, 20, ... 30 billion light years away?

That JWST is going to be bad for someone's business.


Yep. Pseudoscience cranks are going to suffer.


Wo, so someone could hand you a blue whale and you'd call it a potted plant.

says arcmetal

As long as it is written into a peer-reviewed science journal - he would.
jones is a diehard believer in the religion of "Scientism", and aficionado of all that was preached by Albert Einstein, Stevie Hawking, and those who believe in the pseudoscience of the Time factor that is in the Spacetime inclusion into math equations. Time has been given a bad rap and, unfortunately, cannot defend itself.
The rest of us who understand that there is no such thing as "settled science" will gladly await the advent of the JWST generation and its more extreme accuracy and "no-holds barred" attitude.

Dec 23, 2018
@arcmetal


@arc, this isn't "inflation." This is just the normal cosmic expansion we can see from the redshift.

Inflation is something completely different, and you shouldn't get them confused if you want to talk about cosmology.
says Da Scheide

That's right, arcmetal. The best way to not get confused is to always remember to equate "inflation" with Da Scheide's overinflated ego, while a normal cosmic expansion can be equated with the size of Da Scheide's overly expanded belly and his brain/arse. In fact, jones and Da Scheide exhibit both remarkable characteristics.

Dec 23, 2018
Sorry, not interested in talking about astrophysics with a psychotic who thinks the mind reading alien lizards are making up scientific papers because jebus.

Dec 23, 2018
Sorry, not interested in talking about astrophysics with a psychotic who thinks the mind reading alien lizards are making up scientific papers because jebus.


......then stop talking to yourself mister Physorg Site Moderator.

Dec 23, 2018
@arc, this isn't "inflation." This is just the normal cosmic expansion we can see from the redshift.

Inflation is something completely different, and you shouldn't get them confused if you want to talk about cosmology.

Uh, what? I'm not sure who or what is confused here, or maybe that is your ulterior motive.

"expansion" -- this is the expanding space of the universe due to the supposed doppler effect of the cosmic red-shift of distant galaxies. (a poor conclusion imho)

"inflation" -- an event happening just after the BB, yet another shoe horned idea to explain away all the other observations that show the universe is much older than 13 billion years.

This distinction seems simple enough, or at least that's what all of the papers on this topic suggest.


Dec 23, 2018
To add some Christmas sparkle

Theses electrons and protons are infinitely older than 15billion light years
orbiting telescopes have only just recently gone into orbit
we are only scratching the surface
the fact electrons have Yotta life spans proves the point
the proton and its scrumptious electron
with the patter of little feet
have been creating little electrons and protons 1000s of billions of years before we made telescopes
capable of peering a miserly 14billion light years
there are infinite galaxies waiting to be found in the infinite vacuum
says granville

I fully agree that electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks, muons, gluons, etc. that make up the atoms of Mass/Energy are far, far and far older than the Matter and Energies and their gaseous, solid and liquid products that we presently are able to SEE/detect with those amazingly intricate space telescopes. The Quantum Universe that we DON'T see readily is so much older, being the TRUE AGE OF THE UNIVERSE.

Dec 23, 2018
Yes folks - granville is absolutely and possitutely correct that it is the Quantum basis of all material objects in the Cosmos - all things great and small, including within/without that not-so-empty Space - that holds the secret to the TRUE AGE of the Universe and everything in it, past, present and future.
The Stars, galaxies, moons, asteroids, you - are ALL the end products of the Quantum factories and workplaces that very few are concerned over. The production line of objects such as Stars and galaxies are begun/started at the quantum level to grow and increase level by level until the quantum becomes the Stars, planets and galaxies that your eyes and 'scopes are able to see/detect.
This means that ANY galaxies, etc. from the distant past whose images have come to us, are still youngsters in comparison with those tiniest that live within the Quantum Universe - trillions of Earth years' old, they are - if not older.

Dec 23, 2018
Sorry, not interested in talking about astrophysics with a psychotic who thinks the mind reading alien lizards are making up scientific papers because jebus.
says Da Scheide

ROFLOL

Dec 23, 2018
@arc, yes, that's right- and you appear to have confused the two in the post I replied to.

We knew the universe is 13 billion years old long before we came up with inflation.

Dec 24, 2018
Benni:
And you too, being filled with the nonsense of Modern Cosmology's Perpetual Motion Universe are just one more neophyte who has been sucked in by it. Take a Thermodynamics course & learn something about ENTROPY before pretending that just because..blah...blah..blah...


See the straw man?
"Modern Cosmology's Perpetual Motion Universe" - LOL
See, you don't understand the first thing about Modern Cosmology.
"Take a Thermodynamics course & learn something about ENTROPY"- and then you fail at thermodynamics.

What a dolt!

Dec 24, 2018
Seems to me steady state is a perpetual motion universe.

Just sayin'.

Dec 24, 2018
Benni:
When are you deleting my account?


Your and SEU's accounts should have been removed long ago. Does this look familiar?

Keep science: Include references to the published scientific literature to support your statements. Pseudoscience comments (including non-mainstream theories) will be deleted (see pseudoscience).
Avoid political and religious discussions: Because of the complexity and ambiguity of this subject matter, political and religious discussions are not allowed.


You might be able to argue that your comments are not pseudoscience, since pseudoscience at least purports to be scientific in origin, even though disproven scientifically. Your comments are as stupid now as when you joined.
How someone can be on this site for years, apparently reading the articles and comments, but not pick up any real science knowledge is ... noteworthy.
Why is that Benni?


Dec 24, 2018
@arc, yes, that's right- and you appear to have confused the two in the post I replied to.

We knew the universe is 13 billion years old long before we came up with inflation.

I see. It might "appear" I confused it, but reread it again. ... Maybe my sarcasm and disdain for these silly ideas only adds to the confusion. I can see why Hoyle made fun of it as well.

Dec 24, 2018
Considering some of the articles posted here, @Ojorf, I'd say the people who run the site are in violation of that particular rule. Both on the religion and the politics points.

I don't see how you discuss a report that says conservatives believe fake news if it's negative more often than progressives without discussing politics, just as a recent example. And anthropogenic global climate change also appears to be a political flashpoint. I think this is disingenuous of the site managers.

But I don't whine about it; I just do my best.

Dec 24, 2018
@arc, I said
It's worth mentioning that since there has been cosmic expansion since the Big Bang
and you said
This extra "inflation", its really just a made up thing, a fantasy, a kludge, to try and explain away the obvious observations.


Now, would you like to try again? Because what you're saying doesn't seem to be what you were saying before. That looks to me like you were confusing inflation with expansion, particularly since I explicitly said
there has been cosmic expansion since the Big Bang
and you immediately jumped to
extra "inflation"


They're your own words. Do you disown them?

Dec 24, 2018
If it were me I'd ban psychotics who state that alien lizards with telepathic powers control the scholarly media on sight, and also pseudoscience like not "believing in" black holes and the "Electric Universe." For a while the moderators seemed to do this, but it has fallen off in the last few years.

But I wouldn't make a good moderator; I'm too passionate. So I rarely criticize. I tried just not posting here for six months but instead of making things better it seemed to make them worse. Now I pursue my own agenda.

Dec 24, 2018
To add some Christmas sparkle

We have been sitting on our behind for far too long since our 250,000mile trip to the moon
the immense distance has gone to our heads
its made us giddy
just think
we travelled 250,000miles to the moon
and now we think we know the universe inside out like the back of our hands
but that was 40years ago And now were venturing on the dark side
The universe is bigger than a BH simulation
It's time to think Big
says granville

It is sad that too many of the original astronauts of Friendship 7 and the Apollo program have gone to their final reward. Neil Armstrong and the others will be sorely missed. Buzz Aldrin and others are still fairly active and have speaking engagements about their experiences.
I sincerely hope that Congress will have allotted a goodly amount of future funding for a possible new Moon program, that is, if humans will not be "prevented" from going back.
China will take its chance, so we shall see what happens then.

Dec 24, 2018
I'm sorry, I don't respond to psychotics who think mind reading alien lizards control the government and the scientific literature. Get help from a professional and take the drugs they give you. I've seen them work. You won't feel like this any more if you do what they tell you.

I watched a family member die because he wouldn't do this. I regret his death, but I would say the same thing to anyone who has feelings like this; he didn't take the medicine. And that was his choice. psychotic or not.

Dec 24, 2018
You have to want to get better. If you don't you won't.

Dec 24, 2018
Considering some of the articles posted here, @Ojorf, I'd say the people who run the site are in violation of that particular rule. Both on the religion and the politics points.

I don't see how you discuss a report that says conservatives believe fake news if it's negative more often than progressives without discussing politics, just as a recent example. And anthropogenic global climate change also appears to be a political flashpoint. I think this is disingenuous of the site managers.

But I don't whine about it; I just do my best.
says Da Scheide

Wow - it is a good thing that I/we are not "religious", nor do I/we adhere to any human religion.
The Truth is that almost all topics have at least one element that is related to some kind of political issue - whether it be science, health, traffic, finance, law and order, the prison system, housing and welfare for illegal immigrants, taxes and taxable income, collegiate snowflakes, even entertainment is political.

Dec 24, 2018
Again, I don't discuss issues with psychotics. Get help. Take the drugs they give you.

I don't like you but I don't want to see you die because of your psychotic ideation.

The drugs will make the alien mind reading rape machines tn the bushes go away.

Dec 24, 2018
If you were only trolling, that was a really bad way to troll. I have had to deal with psychotics in real life. And watched one die who was close to me, because of his psychosis. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't dignified. They died shitting themselves and screaming it was the telepathic aliens sending radio waves through the windows. If you die I hope you die in as much agony as he did.

Dec 24, 2018
Hmmm and hmm - perhaps Da Scheide is not aware that his psychosis is showing up in the vast majority of his posts/comments, which is also a form of ego-tripping for the sake of his mental state. Anyone (other than Da Scheide's rooting/cheering squad), who has any semblance of comprehension of Da Scheide's psychosis will, in all probability, understand that physorg has become a haven/sanctuary for Da Scheide's more or less debilitating mental psychosis. His cheering squad are possibly trying to assist him to be well on the way to recovery - but their agreements with what Da Scheide has been stating in his comments, are actually hindering such a recovery.
This is the reason why Da Scheide professes such dislike or intense hatred of religious folk or political themes which are fairly common in most forums - due to Da Scheide not being able to prevent that of which he finds so distasteful and hateful.
Hopefully, Da Scheide will seek help and recover fully from his mental issues

Dec 24, 2018
I'm not the one claiming alien telepathic lizards control the government.

Maybe you forgot.

Dec 24, 2018
LOL I have no knowledge whatsoever of alien lizards controlling any government. Which government is that, and are the leaders of those governments aware that they are being controlled? That is quite interesting, Da Scheide. By the way, were you a bedwetter as a child and did your Mum spank you for it?
Also, did you refuse to be potty trained by your Mum or Dada? These are unusual things that you have been saying on physorg of late - unusually so.
Do you get very angry often and do you feel that you want to kill someone? Please answer the questions.

Dec 24, 2018
Although I do not know you personally or offline, Da Scheide, I would highly recommend a program of Thorazine to calm you down to try to reverse your obvious mental incapacity to understand reality and to deal better with humans. It might help you more than you know, Da Scheide

Dec 24, 2018
You think maybe everyone forgot?


Dec 24, 2018
You think maybe everyone forgot?

says Da Scheide

Everyone forgot what, Da Scheide? Everything that you have said is in the forums comments for everyone to see. I doubt that anyone could ever forget YOUR comments, Da Scheide, as they are truly unusual. Alien lizards ruling governments - my goodness. When did this happen?

Dec 24, 2018
What you said. You said alien mind reading lizard were controlling the government and the scholarly papers.

Are you denying this now? Because the scholarly papers say your're lying.

Dec 24, 2018
Doesn't matter how many downvotes you make. You either got the shizz or you don't. Bring it troll. Smarter than you.

Dec 24, 2018
Nope, that certainly wasn't me, Da Scheide. I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth. But telepathic alien lizards who control governments? Nope, that wasn't me ever, Da Scheide. You must have been dreaming it as part of your psychosis.

Dec 24, 2018
extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth
We done here?

Go to a psychiatric professional and get medication. I can't help you nor can anyone here.

Dec 24, 2018
You're done here, Da Scheide.
I have already told you what I had said, and yet you insist on telling a baldfaced lie, even when the truth is IN PRINT in these forums, Da Scheide.
As I advised you to take Thorazine, I know that you will do otherwise and possibly wind up killing someone whom you might take to be an alien lizard.

Dec 24, 2018
Sorry, man, if helping psychotics deal with their delusions is part of "doing here," I ain't available.

Talk to a professional and take the drugs they give you. I got nothing else to say.

Dec 24, 2018
Good. You have said enough to put into a mental hospital for a long time. Extraterrestrials are on the Earth already, and they are good folks.
But your alien lizards, Da Scheide? They are products of your own insanity.
Doing here? What is that?

Dec 24, 2018
I ain't the one that said
I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth
. Sorry man, that's psychotic ideation. You need professional help. I am not qualified but it's pretty obvious.

Get help. Before you hurt somebody.

Dec 24, 2018
aha Someone seems to have felt some pity for you and gave you a five, Da Scheide. S/he should give you some Thorazine to calm you down and to try to help you make sense, Da Scheide

Dec 24, 2018
It's obvious you've been confined before. Did you try to kill the neighbors because they were beaming microwaves through your windows?

Dec 24, 2018
I ain't the one that said
I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth
. Sorry man, that's psychotic ideation. You need professional help. I am not qualified but it's pretty obvious.
says Da Scheiden

Of course they are here on Earth, you ninny. I would never deny that. Nothing psychotic about extraterrestrials visiting the Earth. They seem to love it here, so get used to it. Even the gov knows it.
Hmmmm, you said "ideation". The only other person to say that word is your loverboy Captain Stunky.

Dec 24, 2018
Wow, it doubled down.

Dude you really really need help from a professional. Go talk to them and see how they react to this. If you don't the police will eventually force you to and that's going to be a lot worse, trust me. I've seen it and it was really ugly. They can help you.

Dec 24, 2018
It's obvious you've been confined before. Did you try to kill the neighbors because they were beaming microwaves through your windows?
says Da Scheiden

LOL Continue your lying all you want, Da Scheide. You are digging a deeper hole as you go along. Your cheering squad will keep giving you Fives to keep you happy and contented.
But I have better things to do than converse with an obvious lunatic. I know that you will be stalking me in other forums. Just take some Thorazine like a good little bedwetter, ok?

Dec 24, 2018
Dude they give drugs to people who think there are alien telepathic rape machines in the bushes. It's not funny. You have serious psychological problems if you think there are telepathic aliens running the government. You need to go tell this to a psychiatric professional. It's the only help you can get, and if you hurt someone because you think they're a telepathic alien you're going to have a much worse time.

Dec 24, 2018
Oh, and have you noticed that scientists/astronomers are looking for planets that may have life on them? And have you noticed that there seems to be life on this planet already?
And yet you deny the existence of other life forms. Are you afraid, Da Scheide?
Uh rape machines in the bushes? wow, that's a new one. Where are you getting all these weirdo ideas from, Da Schiebo?

Dec 24, 2018
You're the one with the psychotic ideation about alien mind control. Seriously, get help. No one here can help you. Nor should they try, or do anything but tell you to get help.

It's not funny, and I am not trolling. Please get help before you hurt someone and they call the cops.

Dec 24, 2018
To all of you who are reading these comments, notice that Da Schniebo is now imitating what I had said to him. I forget what it is called - something about "reverse -
Psychotic ideation about alien mind control? No such thing, Da Scheide

Dec 24, 2018
I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth
This is psychotic ideation. Plain, simple, straightforward, and obvious.

Get help. Tell this to a professional. They will give you drugs. Take them.

Dec 24, 2018
Well, today is now the day before Christmas Day. I have some gift wrapping to do, so I will say to one and all, whether religious or not, whether Creationist (like me) or not.
Have a merry Christmas, people. Ta Ta
:)

Dec 24, 2018
I don't see any other way to deal with psychosis than repeatedly emphasize that they should tell a mental health professional about their problem. If anyone thinks differently please speak up.

Dec 24, 2018
Cut it out, you two.

Dec 24, 2018
Try growing up with this shiit and no one ever admitting it until you're old.

That's the real, man. Try burying somebody who died from it.

People like this don't need to be on a science site on the Internet. They need to get help.

https://www.youtu...-a0_Bb9Y

Dec 24, 2018
I find it hard to tell you 'cause I find it hard to take.

Dec 24, 2018
This stuff from a Physorg website Moderator Da Schneib:

But I don't whine about it; I just do my best.
....like changing the content of your Comments when you've been confronted with your math screwups when challenging me to divide a number by zero.

Again, I don't discuss issues with psychotics.
....then stop talking to yourself.

Doesn't matter how many downvotes you make. You either got the shizz or you don't. Bring it troll. Smarter than you.
......Ha, ""Smarter"? Then why couldn't you as a Physorg website Moderator do a better job covering your tracks over in the Singularity thread where you went back & changed the content of no less than 5 posts, three of your own, one of mine, & one of jimmybobber?

Hey, schneibo, maybe you can explain to those of us who took Differential Equations in college why it makes sense to divide a number by zero? Then after jimmybobber explained your mistake you immediately went back & changed half a dozen Comments.


Dec 24, 2018
@Benni Once again and hopefully for the last time. Nobody changed any of my posts. I checked my posts and none have changed from what I originally posted.

I modified one of my posts on the "Beyond the black hole singularity" thread after a minute or so to fix a spelling error. I believe I typed "than" instead of "then."

Now here you are in a separate thread repeating the lie. If I hadn't seen this thread I would not have been able to correct this lie. Leave me out of it from this point forward.

I do not wish to be associated with your lies and views.

Dec 24, 2018
@Benni You're words: "Hey, schneibo, maybe you can explain to those of us who took Differential Equations in college why it makes sense to divide a number by zero? Then after jimmybobber explained your mistake you immediately went back & changed half a dozen Comments."

I never explained any mistakes by Schneibo. I've only explained mistakes made by you. I mentioned Scheibo in a single post because he was correct and i was expanding on what he said and was criticizing you
My quote:
"@Benni Da Scheib pointed out the equation for the EM force which is also an inverse square law and also allows an undefined (not infinite) force when d goes to zero.

F = kQQ'/d²

I'm not sure why you have an issue with gravity and not the electromagnetic force.

Of course we know that d doesn't go to zero. This is rectified by quantum mechanics.
Don't you think quantum mechanics will come into play as well for the gravitational force at some point?
..."

Dec 24, 2018
I find it hard to tell you 'cause I find it hard to take.

Okay... Now I've got THAT song stuck in my head....
Which isn't that bad, now that I think about it... :-)

Dec 24, 2018
This stuff from a Physorg website Moderator Da Schneib:

But I don't whine about it; I just do my best.

Remember that this website is a DoD/NSA sponsored site, aimed at controlling the narrative away from classified physics and the alien presence. The reality of our condition here on Earth is far too bizarre for general public consumption. But most important, and used for classified justification, is that electro-gravitic physics discovered in the 50's is far too dangerous for rogue nation investigation. Thus, we have numerous NSA trolls here over the years mocking the truth and diverting the unwary. Don't be part of the unwary. Think different.

I limit my comments largely to cosmology, and the Huge Bang Fantasy. I agree that electro-gravitics should not be discussed. So NSA, leave me alone. I thought we had a truce long ago?

Dec 24, 2018
Ahh, four little sockpuppets dancing on the internet stage. benni, seu, arc & tux.

It doesn't really matter whether you wethers are bots for the saudis or the russians.

The intent to attack the American people with mythinformation & outright, altright fraudulent steershit causes the same damage.

You Artificial Stupids exemplify the results of malicious programming.

Dec 24, 2018
The intent to attack the American people with mythinformation & outright, altright fraudulent steershit causes the same damage.


.....in this chatroom the main bot is Physorg's own Moderator, Da Schneib who has on a regular basis for over a year been changing Comments to suit his demented fantasies. And of course there are those like jimbo who don't care because it also suits his Pop-Cosmology fantasies.


Dec 24, 2018
On this Christmas Eve
Da Schneib> It's worth mentioning that since there has been cosmic expansion since the Big Bang, we are actually a great deal farther now, the current size of the universe is 80-90 billion light years across.
So we can confidently state that the universe is at absolute minimum 100-110 billion light years

The realisation
that
Georges Lemaitre, an ordained priest
wrote into scripture
the word of the Lord
and the word was
that the universe was created
in a an instantaneous flash
as that was the beginning
as written
by Georges Lemaitre
even though
Georges Lemaitre had no actual real tangible proof
only his committed conviction as an ordained priest
and so
In a stable this Cosmic Egg was born on this Christmas Eve
as the universe reveals its infinite size with every telescopic advance
we will never ever be able to see to the very last galaxy
and so
Who will rid us of this troublesome priest
This Christmas Eve

Dec 24, 2018
Keep this Christmas sparkle alive this Christmas Eve
Benni> in this chatroom the main bot is Physorg's own Moderator, Da Schneib who has on a regular basis for over a year been changing Comments to suit his fantasies

It matters not
it matters not the reason why
it only matters
is this true
because
firstly
there is no point
and secondly what's the point
as
as many comments as whished can be inkly typed
which
comes to the first point
their is no point
has not everyone backtracked, changed their mind
we are not the Lords messenger
as even Georges Lemaitre has at some time changed his mind

It matters not
It matters not the reason why
It only matters
Is this true

This Christmas Eve

Dec 24, 2018
@Benni Once again and hopefully for the last time. Nobody changed any of my posts. I checked my posts and none have changed from what I originally posted.

I modified one of my posts on the "Beyond the black hole singularity" thread after a minute or so to fix a spelling error. I believe I typed "than" instead of "then."


No jimbo, that wasn't the modification the Physorg Moderator Da Schneib made to your post & you good & well know it, that is unless you are so utterly stupid that you can't even identify the content of your own Comments, so I frankly don't care that YOU don't care because both of you have the same agenda. You've been a good sounding board for me to keep the discussion going.

Anything more you want to say?

Dec 24, 2018
How true is this true, if it is true
I modified one of my posts on the "Beyond the black hole singularity" thread after a minute or so to fix a spelling error. I believe I typed "than" instead of "then

Having been used to an hour to edit posts
it can be realised 3 minutes is a might tight
but saying that
this 3 minutes is not strictly true
as long as the page is not refreshed
a total of 9 minutes
is
actually available for editing
because
what we are editing
"is this true"
editing the truth
the literal truth
within the actual physical total allowance
to its total absolute maximum
Nine minutes

Dec 24, 2018
Trying to justify the truth

As the person complaining of their changing their post
being pointed out to one and all
as one and all are entitled to editing their post
the question is now two fold
If this editing was within the nine minutes
why is the editor complaining
as is the maximum allotted time
so comes two the two fold question
the actual complaining of editing
is a sign of guilty conscience
as why would anyone
within the nine minutes even notice a post being edited
and why would anyone complain and try to justify changing their post
as they are entitled to
It all smacks of one almighty guilty conscience

Dec 24, 2018
@jimmybobber, this is @Benni's standard operating procedure: lie about what someone said. It seems to think it's the greatest trolling trick evar. It never seems to notice that it makes people hate it.

Dec 24, 2018
@idiot creationist eggy
Extraterrestrials are on the Earth already, and they are good folks.
and the evidence?

if you make this statement and you say it's true, what evidence do you have other than your claims?

or is this like your religious belief: just something you "know" and that we should accept based upon your track record (which, to tell the truth, isn't one of science, fact or even good enough to call marginal)

.

.

@incompetent delusional geriatric benji
No jimbo, that wasn't the modification the Physorg Moderator Da Schneib made to your post
1- you have a screencap that proves editing past the 3 min mark?
No?
STFU then

2- just because you don't understand how computers work doesn't mean no one does - it's like the differential equations you talk about but don't know how to do: just saying you know isn't proof of anything other than your delusional beliefs

3- repeating a lie doesn't make it truer
that's for religions and cults


Dec 24, 2018
@ creationist eggy
Extraterrestrials are on the Earth already, and they are good folks.
and the evidence?

if you make this statement and you say it's true, what evidence do you have other than your claims?

or is this like your religious belief: just something you "know" and that we should accept based upon your track record (which, to tell the truth, isn't one of science, fact or even good enough to call marginal)
says Captain Stunky

I have no religion, as you already know but feel an urge to repeat your lies over and over. Everyone knows who you really are, and those who still don't are free to guess.
And the evidence is none of your concern or any of your business, as well as my claim that it is true.
We? Who is "we"? Nobody else cares or asks, so why are YOU asking?
I will now put your user name on Ignore and have my staff monitor your activities - both online and off on a permanent basis.

Dec 24, 2018
@jimmybobber, this is @Benni's standard operating procedure: lie about what someone said. It seems to think it's the greatest trolling trick evar. It never seems to notice that it makes people hate it.

Hey mister Physorg Moderator, I just sent you another Report. Busy enough night for you? Anothe one on it's way.

Dec 24, 2018
@idiot creationist eggy
I have no religion
except, right above in this thread, you stated
I have some gift wrapping to do, so I will say to one and all, whether religious or not, whether Creationist (like me) or not
and by definition, creationism is part of the abrahamic religion, as you already know but feel an urge to repeat your lies over and over: https://en.wikipe...ationism

Everyone knows who you really are, and those who still don't are free to guess (or just read what you wrote)
And the evidence is none of your concern or any of your business
so, it's another lie then
thanks for admitting that
I will now put your user name on Ignore
again? I thought I was already on ignore?
did you forget what your sock did?
and have my staff monitor your activities - both online and off on a permanent basis
ROTFLMFAO
not just a liar, but a psychopathic liar

thanks for continuing to validate my claims about you

no one does it better

Dec 24, 2018
@jimmybobber, this is @Benni's standard operating procedure: lie about what someone said. It seems to think it's the greatest trolling trick evar. It never seems to notice that it makes people hate it.


Keep it going schneibo, by the way I sent a Report over to your Moderator desk. Ever had anyone Report their own Comments? Just wanted to make sure you're reading all of them.

Dec 24, 2018
hi Benni and granville
I've got all the Christmas presents wrapped and placed under the tree. A spruce it is this year. The Yule log is burning in the fireplace and the popcorn is strung. Guests and family are still streaming in, so I will have to greet them and talk of olde times. Someone is playing the piano in the Great Room while a few folks are playing billiards. Lots to eat and drink and some will be spending the night. I expect to be up very late.
:)

Dec 24, 2018
@Benni
It appears that this jimmy bobber has become a stooge for Da Scheide, possibly even one of Da Scheide's sox.
BTW, check out the definition of Scheide in the German/English.

Got to run - doorbell.

Dec 24, 2018
BTW, check out the definition of Scheide in the German/English.
.........that's good, really good: vagina

Dec 24, 2018
BTW, check out the definition of Scheide in the German/English.
.........that's good, really good: vagina

Oh, Benni... you have such a filthy mouth...

Dec 25, 2018
Oh, Benni... you have such a filthy mouth...


Oh, that's easy to explain:
Matthew 12:34:
...how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.


Science and god agree on this.

Merry Xmas!!!

Dec 25, 2018
BTW, check out the definition of Scheide in the German/English.
.........that's good, really good: vagina

Oh, Benni... you have such a filthy mouth...
says Whyde - whose eyes perked up at the mere mention -

- not being aware that "vagina" is a scientific term - quite appropriate to be mentioned in this science website - Whyde decided to denigrate Benni for mentioning the English translation of a German word for the female unmentionable anatomical part. Possibly rarely seen by Whyde, the very idea of a Scheide has had an inordinate effect upon Whyde's psyche, and will likely cause a slight bit of anguish to Whyde's puritanical sense, being now so full of indignation. Perhaps a glass or two of sherry or port, eh Whyde?

Dec 25, 2018
You must be named Richard. ;)

Happy Kwanzaa.

Dec 25, 2018
Neat, a worthwhile discussion:

I wanna be able to *calculate* it.

I presumed so, which is why I linked to a cosmological calculator as reference. If you want the source code, ask the site publisher (which is a cosmologist); but fix the observable universe age (13.8 Ga, not 13.7)!

In addition to this, there are consequences, called "domain walls,"

Those are theoretical constructs of some theoretical cosmologies, not necessarily of known cosmology.

anthropogenic global climate change

Only politicized by populist politicians, mainly in US. Underlying climate science is objective and AGW is an accepted scientific fact [IPCC].

Dec 25, 2018
Not so neat, the problem with trolls is that they continue in meaninglessness. Oh, well:

Pop-Co[smology "simulations


Obviously false, published ones - see the article for an example.

And you forgot to respond to the science claims I made.

inflation", its really just a made up thing ... an event happening just after the BB


It is the current accepted (since observed) cosmology; and you have the order of eras wrong if you want to refer to the subsequent inflationary Hot Big Bang [Planck Legacy Archives].

And you forgot to discuss the article science.

The rest of the thread seems to be a long insane scream fest too, only devoid of any pretenses to science discussion.

Dec 25, 2018
BTW, check out the definition of Scheide in the German/English.
.........that's good, really good: vagina

Oh, Benni... you have such a filthy mouth...
says Whyde - whose eyes perked up at the mere mention -

- not being aware that "vagina" is a scientific term - quite appropriate to be mentioned in this science website - Whyde decided to denigrate Benni for mentioning the English translation of a German word for the female unmentionable anatomical part. Possibly rarely seen by Whyde, the very idea of a Scheide has had an inordinate effect upon Whyde's psyche, and will likely cause a slight bit of anguish to Whyde's puritanical sense, being now so full of indignation. Perhaps a glass or two of sherry or port, eh Whyde?

Was Sarcasm based on previous Benni comments.
You're the one who brought it up out o nowhere. Must be on YOUR mind a bit...
And... ya, it does perk up my psyche. Why wouldn't it?

Dec 25, 2018
The rest of the thread seems to be a long insane scream fest too, only devoid of any pretenses to science discussion.
Yeah but one person's box of rocks is another person's crazy diamond gemology, in a sophisticated collective neural net AGI kinda way.

Dec 25, 2018
Pro, the mis-statement you made in your comment was to confuse a the babbling nonsense of a woobot with actual, physical minerals.

Reverse your assumption that a woobot's claim to secret knowledge, unknown to everyone with an education.

If you have a box of professionally cut & certified diamonds...
Will you accept the word of notorious bunco artists that those diamonds are just useless gravel?

Considering, that even if they pulled their heads out of their own asses & looked in the box? They are totally incompetent to judge either the quality or value of the gemstones?

Face it, the woobot's opinions about anything are useless noise.

"Casting pearls before these woobot swine." Is a hopeless waste of the pearls of wisdom.

Dec 25, 2018
It doesn't really matter whether you wethers are bots for the saudis or the russians.

The intent to attack the American people with mythinformation & outright, altright fraudulent steershit causes the same damage.


Good writer, but truly delusional stuff man.

Dec 25, 2018
Ah. Thanks @torbjorn I missed the calculator link the first time around.

But I'm still not getting 12 Gly.

Dec 25, 2018
@Old_C, apparently not. In fact your dismissal makes most people think of your provenance.

Dec 26, 2018
BTW, check out the definition of Scheide in the German/English.
.........that's good, really good: vagina

Oh, Benni... you have such a filthy mouth...
says Whyde - whose eyes perked up at the mere mention -

- not being aware that "vagina" is a scientific term - quite appropriate to be mentioned in this science website - Whyde decided to denigrate Benni for mentioning the English translation of a German word for the female unmentionable anatomical part. Possibly rarely seen by Whyde, the very idea of a Scheide has had an inordinate effect upon Whyde's psyche, and will likely cause a slight bit of anguish to Whyde's puritanical sense, being now so full of indignation. Perhaps a glass or two of sherry or port, eh Whyde?

Was Sarcasm based on previous Benni comments.
You're the one who brought it up out o nowhere. Must be on YOUR mind a bit...
And... ya, it does perk up my psyche. Why wouldn't it?
says Whyde
-cont-

Dec 26, 2018
@Whyde
I responded to your very uncalled for accusation of Benni who had been responding to MY mentioning to him that he should "check out" the word "Scheide" which is German for vagina. Benni checked it out and let me know that he had done so - by saying what he had found it to be. There was nothing "filthy" about it, so that your assessment was really quite unfair. That is, unless YOU had said it with "tongue in cheek".
In case you were not aware, both SpookyOtto and I have been referring to Da Schneibo as "Da Scheide" - first started by Otto until I more recently picked up on it.
If you had read it again, you would have seen that it had nothing to do it with Benni's previous comments. It was just an innocent conversation on Christmas Eve.
Another thing that you should know, Whyde, is that no matter what someone imagines Creationism to BE - it is definitely NOT a religion, Abrahamic or otherwise. Just saying.

Dec 26, 2018
Oh, look, Richard Hedd has come back. Full of christmess wishes no doubt.

Dec 26, 2018

It doesn't really matter whether you wethers are bots for the saudis or the russians.

The intent to attack the American people with mythinformation & outright, altright fraudulent steershit causes the same damage.


Good writer, but truly delusional stuff man.
says Old_C_Code

I haven't been able to fathom rrwiliejoe's writings of late either. "The intent to attack the American people blab blab blab blah" would be most unusual for a normal person to say as it is - but williejoe has been rambling on and on with strange ideas, which do seem to indicate a delusional mind. Physorg seems to attract delusional minds and also at least some with obvious mental issues which they readily expose in their comments.


Dec 26, 2018
Oh look. Da Scheide has come back, With a stocking full of coal and a message from hell, no doubt. "Richard Hedd" seems to be a new name for Da Scheide. Let's see if I can find that name in Search. Possibly Da Scheide has his own website?

Dec 26, 2018
Hmmmm and hmm - it appears that Da Scheide has appropriated his new name "Richard Hedd" from an author, namely -
"Another character who represents this failure to engage with cultual alterity and diversity is Richard Hedd, the author of the fictional essay "Asian Communism and the Oriental Mode of Destruction." Unlike the Chair, who is only able to differentiate between a quintessential Eastern and Western character, Hedd "[deals] in types": the "average Viet Cong fighter," the "Vietnamese radical intellectual," the "young Vietnamese who are enamored of America" (p. 251). Again of very little consolation is the fact that the protagonist recognizes one side or another of his personality in Hedd's blunt statements."
That's from one website amongst many others.

Dec 26, 2018
I figure your name has to be the reason for your psychosis.

Dec 26, 2018
rrwillsj, maybe it's as simple as human minds communicating and collaborating, but if you have any insights into imagination, creativity, and the origin of thoughts so characterized, I'm all ears. This song was maybe before your time -- shine on you crazy diamond (A word like "mythinformation" is a pretty good example, these days)

Dec 26, 2018
Oh by the way, which one's Pink? Some of us know the old stuff.

Dec 26, 2018
You inspired me, @Proto. Now listening to Wish You Were Here.

Dec 26, 2018
Threatened by shadows at night,
Then exposed to the light

Dec 26, 2018
An interesting night in the stable
SEU> Yes folks - granville is absolutely and possitutely correct that it is the Quantum basis of all material objects in the Cosmos all things great and small, including within/without that not-so-empty Space - that holds the secret to the TRUE AGE of the Universe and everything in it, past, present and future.
Stars galaxies moons asteroids you - are ALL the end products of the Quantum factories and workplaces that very few are concerned over The production line of objects such as Stars and galaxies are begun started at the quantum level to grow and increase level by level until the quantum becomes the Stars, planets and galaxies that your eyes and 'scopes are able to see detect.
ANY galaxies, etc from the distant past whose images have come to us are still youngsters in comparison with those tiniest that live within the Quantum Universe trillions of Earth years old, they are if not older

Dec 26, 2018
Threatened by shadows at night,
Then exposed to the light


........like exposing your Physorg Moderator gig in this chatroom for Science x.

Scurrilous scum sucking pigs like you can't stand a level playing field in the arena of rational thinking when in pursuit of advancing the Pop-Cosmology agenda, Perpetual Motion.

And because the holiest grails of Pop-Cosmology exist outside the immutable laws of physics, the most important thing you do as a Moderator is editing the Commenting posts of those who are so much better educated than you can ever hope to be.

Schneibo, you can never be better educated than Benni because you have never seen a Differential Equation you could solve. Nothing shakes your rancorous ego more to the core than to have me here making nonsense of your Pop-Cosmology psycho-babble, therefore to keep the playing field level for yourself, you as a Moderator feel the incessant need to lie & cheat your way into relevancy.

Dec 26, 2018
"the immutable laws of physics"

oh bemmi, you & the other woobois are spending way too much time in the drunk tank.

You all need to sober up, get therapy, learn to deal with all your real life failures.

Heck, all together, you woomongers might qualify for a therapy group discount?

Dec 26, 2018
@Benni You just referred to yourself in the first and third person in the same paragraph. That is kinda scary.

"Schneibo, you can never be better educated than Benni because...
Nothing shakes your rancorous ego more to the core than to have me here..."

Dec 26, 2018
@Benni https://en.wikipe...disorder
Dissociative Identity Disorder
^ I added this line as an edit.

Dec 26, 2018
@Benni https://en.wikipe...disorder
Dissociative Identity Disorder
^ I added this line as an edit.


Hey jimbo, how does it feel knowing that on a whim, any Comment you submit in this chatroom can be subject to editing by Physorg Moderator moniker of Da Schneib? It should be scary to you, and I know it's what you're thinking, imagining that a SCIENCE website would deliberately edit Comments absent the Standard Queue of logging such edits.

When key administrators of this site such as John Benson – Editor-in-Chief, Andrew Zinin – Managing Editor, Alexander Pol – Managing Editor, are so lax in screening their Moderators that I as one whose education is science question their selection process in choosing who their Moderators are, especially when they come up with someone like Da Schneib. So hey you three guys, when are you gonna screen your Moderators & uncork this Schneib character? Do you care?


Dec 26, 2018
You all need to sober up, get therapy, learn to deal with all your real life failures.


lol, WTF have you accomplished? you're currently literally insane! That's a real life failure.

Dec 26, 2018
Benni, in the category of Total Number of Off-Topic Rebukes Received some conservative estimates have yours at over five thousand, squarely in the running for Phys.org Troll of the Year 2018. It appears that only you can moderate you, Benni.

Dec 26, 2018
Benni, in the category of Total Number of Off-Topic Rebukes Received some conservative estimates have yours at over five thousand, squarely in the running for Phys.org Troll of the Year 2018. It appears that only you can moderate you, Benni.


Your math is bad, Schneibo & jonesy leave me in the far distance as well as a few others, so get off your self righteous pedestal in trying to find a defense for the two most filthy & foul mouthed to bring their Comments to this chatroom.

To be taken seriously for SCIENCE starts with what comes out of your mouth, and you're on the precipice of it yourself. I've never viewed you as being particularly distinguished in regards of science content, that being the reason I just mostly ignore your Comments to begin with.

Just supposing you tell me o'self righteous one, why would you come here leveling criticism at someone who would like to see the likes of the Da Schneib's foul mouthed filth absent from this site?

Dec 26, 2018
@Benni
There are a certain number of commenters who come into physorg on a regular basis to Troll those who are genuinely interested in talking and learning about science, such as you, granville, arcmetal, Steelwolf, OCC, myself and a few others. There are the ring-leaders of the Troll army in physorg - such as drunk Captain Strumpy aka Captain Beelzebub and his very close associates - Da Scheide (Schneibo), jonesdave and rrwillisj, amongst a few others, who try to claim the status of Wardens of the physorg state, and who claim the right to determine who are allowed to stay and comment - and who must be gotten rid of - especially those who question the right of these ring-leaders to do and say as they wish in the physorg science site. And now, it appears that they have recruited another acolyte, jimmybobber to their monstrous cause.
Tis a sad day for science when such Trolls come into the site to make nuisances of theirselves - and get away with it.

Dec 26, 2018
@Whyde
I responded to your very uncalled for accusation of Benni who had been responding to MY mentioning to him that he should "check out" the word "Scheide" which is German for vagina. Benni checked it out and let me know that he had done so - by saying what he had found it to be. There was nothing "filthy" about it, so that your assessment was really quite unfair. That is, unless YOU had said it with "tongue in cheek".

Which was exactly how it was intended. You must have missed some past Benni comments on "filthy mouthed" commenters. (Saying he wouldn't let his kids on this site because of it.)
It was quite funny, actually...
Another thing that you should know, Whyde, is that no matter what someone imagines Creationism to BE - it is definitely NOT a religion, Abrahamic or otherwise. Just saying.

I imagine it to be (with a very few simple rules) the Universe creating itself...

Dec 26, 2018
You inspired me, @Proto. Now listening to Wish You Were Here.
Ad then there is the ageless
"Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet..."
:-)

Dec 26, 2018
Actually Time and Have A Cigar are my two favorites. I like Dogs pretty well too.

Dec 26, 2018
There are a certain number of commenters who come into physorg on a regular basis to Troll those who are genuinely interested in talking and learning about science


>Egg .............but the key administrators of this site are John Benson – Editor-in-Chief, Andrew Zinin – Managing Editor, Alexander Pol – Managing Editor, who are are so lax in screening their Moderators that until someone gets up the chaunnas to scream loudly in their faces, it will NEVER cease.

Da Schnieb now is wondering to himself what information I have sent to the above named, he's now wondering if his Moderator duties will soon come to an end. Noticed his softening language lately, the absence of his foul mouthed filth?

......and by the way, I'm gonna click on Report when I finish this just so I can rest assured schneibo reads this.


Dec 26, 2018
And just in time for Brain Damage, we get a post from @Benni. This is classic.

The lunatic is on the grass

Dec 26, 2018
Tracked back to listen to Time again. Probably Rick Wright's best work. Those Oberheim bass parts at the beginning are absolute genius. Not playing them; simply conceiving of them.

Dec 26, 2018
And now on to Animals. I'm into the second guitar solo in Dogs.

This seems as relevant to gravity as anything the nutjobs are saying on this thread.

And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown as you go down, dragged down by the stone

Dec 26, 2018
And now on to Animals. I'm into the second guitar solo in Dogs.

This seems as relevant to gravity as anything the nutjobs are saying on this thread.

And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown as you go down, dragged down by the stone

That's the tour I saw back in 77 or 78 (don't quite remember exactly when it was in Chi)

Dec 26, 2018
@Whyde
I responded to your very uncalled for accusation of Benni who had been responding to MY mentioning to him that he should "check out" the word "Scheide" which is German for vagina. Benni checked it out and let me know that he had done so - by saying what he had found it to be. There was nothing "filthy" about it, so that your assessment was really quite unfair. That is, unless YOU had said it with "tongue in cheek".

Which was exactly how it was intended. You must have missed some past Benni comments on "filthy mouthed" commenters. (Saying he wouldn't let his kids on this site because of it.)
It was quite funny, actually...
Another thing that you should know, Whyde, is that no matter what someone imagines Creationism to BE - it is definitely NOT a religion, Abrahamic or otherwise. Just saying.

I imagine it to be (with a very few simple rules) the Universe creating itself...
says Whyde

Tongue in cheek is fine.
-contd-

Dec 26, 2018
Are there any queers in the audience tonight?
Get 'em up against the wall
There's one in the spotlight he don't look right to me
Get him up against the wall

You people are disgusting. Roger Waters sussed you long ago. Now go hide, psychos.

As you slip out of your depth and out of your mind
As you claw the thin ice.

But in the town it was well known that their fat and psychopathic wives
Would thrash them within inches of their lives

Dec 26, 2018
-contd-
@Whyde

However, when your tongue is in your cheek, you need to indicate it by something like this: :/

"I imagine it to be (with a very few simple rules) the Universe creating itself..."
says Whyde

You could say that the Creator God IS the Universe, so yes - He created Himself.
Creationism transcends ALL manmade religions. Such religions were started up because humans had forgotten about the Creator from long ago - so that to compensate for a true deity who seemed to have forsaken them, the Sumerians and Akkadians, and those who came before them, etc. began to worship false gods and goddesses in the hopes of improving their lives and fortunes. It was the Anthropocentric method/tradition that helped them allow for failures - which they would often place the blame for failures on themselves - for not having prayed enough - or been good or charitable enough, etc.

Dec 26, 2018
Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true
Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you
Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing
She won't let you fly but she might let you sing

You are one sick puppy.

Dec 26, 2018
Now, does anyone who matters think this is anything but a YEC troll?

Let's hear some argument. Because all this YEC trol has given out so far looks like YEC trolling to me.

I think I nailed this one right. From the very start of its trolling career. We don't need this kind of trailer trash here

Dec 26, 2018
If you're not a YEC troll then post some science.

You haven't yet, YEC troll @Richard Hedd.

Run to the bedroom,
In the suitcase on the right you'll find my favorite axe
Don't look so frightened, this is just a passing phase
One of my bad days

Would you like to watch TV
Or get between the sheets
Or contemplate the silent freeway
Would you like something to eat

Would you like to try to fly?
Would you like to see me try?

What a nutjob. Waters had you picked out a couple decades ago.

Dec 26, 2018
So Whyde and Benni
I trust that you both had a merry Christmas and received many terrific presents, yes?
It is almost hard to believe that this year is ending in a few days. It was mostly good for me and my friends, housemates and their families. I will go home to the UK in the Spring for a visit with my human host's family.

Dec 27, 2018
Yeah, I didn't think you had any science. This is a YEC troll.

Dec 27, 2018
I can do relativity math, and even throw in a little bit of the modern theory nonsense.

Here's the deal: All this SN 1a data, all this GRB data, it's all irreconcilable. Here's why: If you look at z-values around 6,7,8, or 9, you get relative speeds in excess of 98% or 99% of the speed of light. That means time dilation in excess of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 times greater than most of the other lower z values (lower than, say, 0.5). That means things should appear from our frame of reference to take much longer to occur for the higher z values.

However, if you look at the supposedly seminal SN 1a data, the light-curve peak-luminosities don't come close to corresponding with those multiples. What's more, the GRB data is actually inversely correlated! Uh oh? Something stinks in Denmark.

No wonder it takes them up to two years to confirm a z-value for a high redshift GRB these days. Somebody with half a brain understands this?

Dec 27, 2018
clarification:

. . .the TIME TO peak light-curve luminosities don't come close to corresponding with those relativistic time-dilation multiples derived from z-values. . .

Dec 27, 2018
and, um, anyone who posts more than three unsolicited, non-responsive comments to any thread is surely a troll.

Dec 27, 2018
Your math is bad
The math is easy, let's see if the estimate isn't conservative: Let's say Benni averages 3.7 comments in 1.5 threads (articles) per day, each of which elicits an average of 3 negative responses (including 1-stars), and let's say that for two whole months in 2018 Benni didn't post anything at all. If the thread for this article is a typical example then the estimate is stretching the reasonable bounds of conservatism and we have:
3.7 x 1.5 x 3 x 305 = 5078.25 qed.

Dec 27, 2018
@DS, yeah on a grand scale it seems to be a fundamental aspect of the human condition, where even the world's kings pretend they're deities of mythinformed sorts...

Out into the cool of the evening
strolls the Pretender
He knows all his hopes and dreams
begin and end there

Dec 27, 2018
Here's why: If you look at z-values around 6,7,8, or 9, you get relative speeds in excess of 98% or 99% of the speed of light
For cosmological redshift it's actually possible to have relative v > c but it's not because the objects are moving that fast, it's because the space between the objects is expanding...

Dec 27, 2018
Here's why: If you look at z-values around 6,7,8, or 9, you get relative speeds in excess of 98% or 99% of the speed of light
For cosmological redshift it's actually possible to have relative v > c but it's not because the objects are moving that fast, it's because the space between the objects is expanding...


"it's because the space between the objects is expanding"........it's because the distance between the objects is becoming greater, not that the space of the intergalactic void is expanding.

The Universe has a FIXED bounds inside of which bodies of mass are constantly changing positions relative to one another, just like our solar system in which the planets in their orbits are constantly changing position relative to one another, thus exhibiting blue or red shifts.

Dec 27, 2018
yeah, ok, we would still expect to observe time dilation from our frame of reference delaying things by several multiples or more with higher z-values. We don't.

Dec 27, 2018
Adventures of a phys.org moderator
Da Schneib> If you're not a YEC troll then post some science.
You haven't yet, YEC troll @Richard Hedd.

Run to the bedroom,
In the suitcase on the right you'll find my favorite axe
Don't look so frightened, this is just a passing phase
One of my bad days

Would you like to watch TV
Or get between the sheets
Or contemplate the silent freeway
Would you like something to eat

Would you like to try to fly?
Would you like to see me try?
What a nut job. Waters had you picked out a couple decades ago.

Not bad Da Schneib
glad to see your use
of this infectious
commentary style
even though, Da Schneib
you don't reside in the Shires
Your complement
Da Schneib
is much appreciated
just one little word
Da Schneib
As you are venturing the English Shires
favorite
is actually spelt
Favourite

Dec 27, 2018
The infinite timeless vacuous vacuum of space
Benni> "it's because the space between the objects is expanding"........it's because the distance between the objects is becoming greater, not that the space of the intergalactic void is expanding

When we say
going into space to visit the space station
we could equally say
going into vacuum to visit the vacuum station
its correct description is vacuum
because
vacuum occupies a dimensional space
the vacuum has become synonymous with space
space is now a word that has gone into language to describe the vacuum
a vacuum in its purist state is self explanatory
a vacuum as a dimensional space cannot be stretched or compressed
it has no time as it is timeless
as it has no time it is ageless and has no beginning or end
it has no velocity
as it contains no mass it has no gravity
The vacuum is the riddle in the sand
Once grasped its secret realised

Dec 27, 2018

Tis a sad day for science when such Trolls come into the site to make nuisances of theirselves - and get away with it.


This comments section has nothing to do with science, you twat. The scientific literature does. You are not in it. Neither are any of the other loons you mentioned. Go post your crap on an astrology forum. It will have as much relevance to science on there as it does on here.

Dec 27, 2018
I SEU- I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth. I will go home to the UK in the Spring for a visit with my human host's family.


Holy shit, this is one serious mental case. Fascinating as it is disturbing. Hopefully those around him will recognize the onset of a total break and get him help before he endangers himself or others.

Dec 27, 2018
I SEU- I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth. I will go home to the UK in the Spring for a visit with my human host's family.


Holy shit, this is one serious mental case. Fascinating as it is disturbing. Hopefully those around him will recognize the onset of a total break and get him help before he endangers himself or others.


He knew you were going to say that!

Dec 27, 2018
I SEU- I recall saying that extraterrestrials who could read minds were here on Earth. I will go home to the UK in the Spring for a visit with my human host's family.


Holy shit, this is one serious mental case. Fascinating as it is disturbing. Hopefully those around him will recognize the onset of a total break and get him help before he endangers himself or others.


He knew you were going to say that!

He's obviously exhibiting the symptoms of a so-called "influencing machine" which is common in advanced schizophrenic behaviors:

"It produces, as well as removes, thoughts and feelings by means of waves or rays or mysterious forces which the patient's knowledge of physics is inadequate to explain. In such cases, the machine is often called a "suggestion-apparatus." Its construction cannot be explained, but its function consists in the transmission or "draining off" of thoughts and feelings by one or several persecutors."

Dec 27, 2018
Some of the psychotics describe them as "rape machines."

Dec 27, 2018
and, um, anyone who posts more than three unsolicited, non-responsive comments to any thread is surely a troll.
says JaxPavan

JaxP = prodigal son of Da Scheide

yeah, ok, we would still expect to observe time dilation from our frame of reference delaying things by several multiples or more with higher z-values. We don't.
says JaxPavan

Please explain. in your own words, the process/method in which Time itself can be dilated; how Time itself can be "observed" and with which instrument(s) can Time itself be observed; and how is it possible to KNOW that it is Time itself being observed.
We KNOW that Space itself can be distorted and dilated through its interactions with Mass, but that is an EVENT that can be measured by Mass movements within and through Space. Adding Time to the mix only gives a measurement of the length of Time that it takes for such movements of Mass.
So give us a clue as to how Time itself is dilated. Is it the measurement that dilates?

Dec 27, 2018
-contd-
So far, JP, the only proven method to observe the passage of Time is by the observation of the hands or numbers that are a part of the face of a clock; the clock face being the movable hands or numbers that indicate the Time and its passing. The mechanism that is the major part of the clock consists of movable cogs, wheels, and other mechanical work that drive the hands or changing numbers of the clock face. The mechanism doesn't dilate; neither does the clock face dilate.
So kindly tell us the method/mechanical work in which Time itself has the capability of dilation.

dilation | dīˈlāSH(ə)n |
noun
1 chiefly Physiology the action or condition of becoming or being made wider, larger, or more open: nitric oxide causes dilation of the blood vessels | dilation of the pupils of the eye.

So does Time widen, become larger (how?), or more open?
Space can SEEM TO expand between material bodies such as planets and Stars, but as Benni says, it is the distance that expands

Dec 27, 2018
-cont-
@JP
"Time dilation

Time dilation explains why two working clocks will report different times after different accelerations. For example, at the ISS time goes slower, lagging 0.007 seconds behind for every six months. For GPS satellites to work, they must adjust for similar bending of spacetime to coordinate with systems on Earth.[1]
According to the theory of relativity, time dilation is a difference in the elapsed time measured by two observers, either due to a velocity difference relative to each other, or by being differently situated relative to a gravitational field. As a result of the nature of spacetime,[2] a clock that is moving relative to an observer will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in the observer's own frame of reference. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock."

It is the differences in the -cont-


Dec 27, 2018
-contd-
@JaxPavan
It is the DIFFERENCES in the GRAVITATIONAL PULL upon a Mass (that is, the clocks and their mechanisms), compounded by other factors such as altitude, attitude, direction, velocity, weathering that causes the clocks' mechanisms to differ from each other - NOT DILATION.
Time Dilation, Spacetime are still a part of the math equations that were introduced into Einstein's GR/SR, and are still of considerable importance to scientists in their pursuit of answers to Cosmological mysteries. They will not figure out that their pet theories of Time Dilation and Spacetime is so full of errors because both are part and parcel of Einstein's sacred theories.

Dec 27, 2018
Egg> I have the most difficult time trying to find the best words for describing an object in motion experiencing on board time mechanisms moving at a slower rate than one at rest in terms of the "Space-time-Continuum" mumbo jumbo, it's a phrase that rates a psycho-babble star.

No one appears to know how to concisely explain this thing in words that make sense to me that I would label a DEFINITION.

I only bring this up to you because all I can add to your efforts is good luck.

Dec 27, 2018
-
...
. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock."

Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
.

Dec 27, 2018
-
...
. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock."

Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
.
says Whyde

Good Q.
Nope, it isn't Time that is, was, or will have sped up. GRAVITY, Whyde. It is gravity that causes the clock to tick slower or faster, depending on the location of those 2 clocks. The further the higher clock is from the Earth's gravitational pull at the flat surface, the SLOWER that clock's mechanism will run - due to there being LESS of a gravitational pull on it. If you send THAT clock out even farther from Earth, the mechanism slows even more due to far less gravity reacting and influencing the Mass/mechanism of that clock.
In the meantime, back at the ranch - the clock that stayed at home on the range (flat surface of Earth) will have kept proper, normal time.

Dec 27, 2018
-
...
. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock."

Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
.
says Whyde

Good Q.
Nope, it isn't Time that is, was, or will have sped up. GRAVITY, Whyde.

In the meantime, back at the ranch - the clock that stayed at home on the range (flat surface of Earth) will have kept proper, normal time.

Then you would have aged "faster" than on earth...
The same goes for dilation due to acceleration, as well?

Dec 27, 2018
-cont-
@Whyde
"a clock that is moving relative to an observer will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in the observer's own frame of reference."

I appears that THIS part of the Wiki article is in error or just confusing. There are TWO observers - one on the ground and one above the ground - each with their clock. Somebody wrote it incorrectly by not denoting that the two observers are at different altitudes, and the editors didn't catch it - UNLESS the word "RELATIVE" is to mean that the clock at higher altitude is RELATIVE (considered in relation or in proportion to something else:) Yes, that's it.
The FIRST "OBSERVER" is the person ON THE GROUND at the flat surface of Earth at the location of the clock that keeps normal Earth time. The second observer is at altitude with his clock that runs slower due to less gravity.

Dec 27, 2018
-cont-
@Whyde
"a clock that is moving relative to an observer will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in the observer's own frame of reference."

I appears that THIS part of the Wiki article is in error or just confusing. There are TWO observers - one on the ground and one above the ground - each with their clock. Somebody wrote it incorrectly by not denoting that the two observers are at different altitudes, and the editors didn't catch it - UNLESS the word "RELATIVE" is to mean that the clock at higher altitude is RELATIVE (considered in relation or in proportion to something else:) Yes, that's it.
The FIRST "OBSERVER" is the person ON THE GROUND at the flat surface of Earth at the location of the clock that keeps normal Earth time. The second observer is at altitude with his clock that runs slower due to less gravity.

Exactly. Wiki error.
What I was trying to subtly point out...

Dec 27, 2018
-
...
. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock."

Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
.
says Whyde

....

Then you would have aged "faster" than on earth...
The same goes for dilation due to acceleration, as well?


Time does not dilate. Only Space has that ability. A gravity well is Space that is dilated due to the Mass that has influenced that Space to curve around the Mass.
The farthest an observer goes away from Earth's Mass, the slower the aging process, After some years out in Space in a spacecraft (with his clock), when he returns to Earth, he will find that many of those he knew have grown old or died - while he hasn't changed much, if at all. It is gravity that tends to age organisms.

Dec 28, 2018
It is amazing to me that humans who spend enough time in LEO come back to Earth a bit taller than their counterparts who stayed on the surface. That happened to the Kelly brothers - astronaut Scott Kelly exhibited a lengthening of his bones, tendons, etc. due to less gravitational influence - RELATIVE to his brother. I am tall enough already, so I don't think that I will volunteer for space travel.
:)

Dec 28, 2018
Egg> I have the most difficult time trying to find the best words for describing an object in motion experiencing on board time mechanisms moving at a slower rate than one at rest in terms of the "Space-time-Continuum" mumbo jumbo, it's a phrase that rates a psycho-babble star.

No one appears to know how to concisely explain this thing in words that make sense to me that I would label a DEFINITION.

I only bring this up to you because all I can add to your efforts is good luck.
says Benni

Spacetime is a cutesy word adopted by scientists to commemorate Einstein's genius - while not being able to exactly define Spacetime other than as part of math equations - where the Time element in Spacetime still hasn't been quantified as anything but a measurement tool that should require some sort of mechanism to work. The pretense of including Time with Space as though Time could be found "in the flesh" or in the shape of a Dyson sphere - or a flying spaghetti monster....

Dec 28, 2018
-
...
. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock."

Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
.

Nope. Gravity dilates time. The stronger the gravity, the more the dilation from an observer position in flat space.

Dec 28, 2018
Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
Nope. Gravity dilates time. The stronger the gravity, the more the dilation from an observer position in flat space.
An easy way to relate gravitational time dilation to the velocity time dilation of special relativity is by using the escape velocity from the gravitational field:
(1) t_0 = t_f sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) <--from special relativity
(2) v = sqrt(2GM/r) <--escape velocity from field g
Square both sides of eq. 2 and substitute 2GM/r for the v^2 term in eq. 1 to get
(3) t_0 = t_f sqrt(1-2GM/rc^2) <-- the gravitational time dilation for field g.
(See Gravitational time dilation)

Dec 28, 2018
Wait... Doesn't this mean time speeds up in the lower gravity environment? I thought it was the opposite... !?!?
Nope. Gravity dilates time. The stronger the gravity, the more the dilation from an observer position in flat space.
An easy way to relate gravitational time dilation to the velocity time dilation of special relativity is by using the escape velocity from the gravitational field:
(1) t_0 = t_f sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) <--from special relativity
(2) v = sqrt(2GM/r) <--escape velocity from field g
Square both sides of eq. 2 and substitute 2GM/r for the v^2 term in eq. 1 to get
(3) t_0 = t_f sqrt(1-2GM/rc^2) <-- the gravitational time dilation for field g.
(See https://en.m.wiki...ilation)


Why don't you learn how to write equations?

Dec 28, 2018
@Benni His equations are fine. Why don't you learn how to read them?

Dec 28, 2018
Stars Live for 10billon years

Massive elliptical galaxies, with the most stars, almost all of their stars are old
where light from elliptical galaxies has travelled for 12 billion years to Earth
Stars take 10million years in their nurseries
then live for 10billion years

Putting these phys.org facts together
as the light has taken 12billion years, this means these elliptical galaxies are now 24billion years old
that is 2.5x older than star live
as these elliptical galaxies are dead end galaxies full of aging stars
the implication is
as these
elliptical galaxies
are
24billion years old
all the stars have come to the end of their lives
as now
these elliptical galaxies are lifeless dead galaxies occupying the vacuum
or
to put it another way
2/3 of the Stars occupying the vacuum are all dead and have been dead nigh on these 10billion years

Dec 28, 2018
Who put the Lights Out

This is a serious problem when reading phys.org articles seriously
the calamitous implications
don't bear thinking about
because the implications are
if we take phys.org at their literal word
we don't exist
and most probably
Ceased to exist billions of years ago

Dec 28, 2018
Time and Velocity are relative to the stationary vacuum
SEU> time dilation is due to a velocity difference relative to each other

A moving clock ticks slower than a clock at rest in the observer's own frame of reference
Lesson one in relative velocities
your own clock is always at rest in your frame of reference
so
by definition
an observers clock is always moving relative to your own
as no two clocks can move at the exact same velocity
Two independent clocks are always in relative velocity
by
Implication neither of the two clocks are stationary
Lesson two
The rate of change of time is proportional to the rate of change of distance between the two clocks
As vacuum is absolute zero velocity and 299792458m/s is the absolute maximum velocity
Each clock is moving relative to the stationary vacuum
As our galaxy is moving 600km/s relative to the vacuum
Lesson three
The rate of change of time is due to velocity relative to the stationary vacuum and nothing else

Dec 28, 2018
@Benni His equations are fine. Why don't you learn how to read them?


.....because you also don't know how, I've seen yours over there on the Singularity, same slop.. I guess it's what could be expected when YOU can't distinguish between the numbers of expressions in an equation, be it 1 or 2 bodies.

Dec 28, 2018
Check the SN Ia data yourself.

3 < z < 4 should have a time to peak luminosity at least twice as long and as much as five times as long as one with 0 < z < 1.

Instead the times to peak luminosity remain relatively constant.

So, Either Einstein is wrong, or the redshift does not indicate expansion.


Dec 28, 2018
@eggy
astronaut Scott Kelly exhibited a lengthening of his bones, tendons, etc. due to less gravitational influence - RELATIVE to his brother
bones to not lengthen

also - space and microgravity not really required to see changes in height alone

you can see a similar effect if you measure yourself lying down after a good nights sleep compared to your height after a hard days work

the height differences you see in long-term microgravity mostly stem from spinal elongation due to lack of compression leading to the straightening of the spine
https://ntrs.nasa...3150.pdf


Dec 28, 2018
@Jax, you got some papers that show this, or even the data from some reliable source? Maybe Hubble? I'd also like to see calculations for low and high z factors showing that the time-to-peak would vary by at least 2:1. For contrast here is a slide deck from CalTech that appears to show exactly what you're saying, but certainly not any 2:1 difference; look on page 6: http://www.astro....ec03.pdf

Data reference is Glodhaber et al which I am hunting down now.

Dec 28, 2018
Here's Goldhaber et al: https://arxiv.org...4382.pdf

Worth mentioning that these guys are making the time dilation calculation, which is obvious from the title of the paper: Timescale Stretch Parameterization of Type Ia Supernova B-band
Light Curves

Dec 28, 2018
From the Goldhaber paper's abstract:
We also demonstrate the 1+z light-curve time-axis broadening expected from cosmological expansion.


I don't know where you got your data, @Jax, but it appears to be faulty. You can also try Perlmutter et al which got the same results as Goldhaber.

Dec 28, 2018
Check the SN Ia data yourself.

3 < z < 4 should have a time to peak luminosity at least twice as long and as much as five times as long as one with 0 < z < 1.

Instead the times to peak luminosity remain relatively constant.

So, Either Einstein is wrong, or the redshift does not indicate expansion.

says JaxPavan

You have mentioned the "TIME" twice in your 2 statements above. In both instances your references to TIME follows the manmade set of measurement(s) as the duration of one or more EVENTS - which is the reason why Anthropocentric timepieces and other timing instruments were invented.
The terms "redshift" and "blueshift" have no real meaning unless the instrument that measures such values are readily available.
But if you are on a spacecraft somewhere in interstellar Space without that instrument - how do you tell whether a galaxy is coming toward you or not? If you are undecided, then you may speed up your craft to meet the galaxy/stars, etc.
-contd-

Dec 28, 2018
It's quite revealing when references to well-known papers in the scholarly literature get downvoted. It's pretty much like downvoting Darwin.

One gets the impression that someone doesn't know who Perlmutter and Goldhaber are.

It's kinda like not knowing who Newton and Einstein are.

Dec 28, 2018
-contd-
@JaxP
While you are on that spacecraft trying to catch the speeding galaxy that is speeding away FROM you, according to YOUR perspective - you look behind your spacecraft and you notice that there are galaxies following and coming towards you. You have no red shift/blue shift instruments to tell you which from which. But the galaxies that are following YOU and the one you are hoping to contact are ALL in the paths of "expansion" - neither redshift or blueshift - but on a set path.
The redshift does not indicate "expansion" of a region/cluster of galaxies when there are "other" galaxies behind. They are ALL moving forward.

Dec 28, 2018
Just so folks know, Saul Perlmutter is a Nobel Laureate in Physics.

Gerson Goldhaber was the Principal Investigator on the Supernova Cosmology Project.

@SEU is an internet troll who is anti-semitic and a Young Earth Cretinist, not a particularly compelling dossier.

Dec 28, 2018
@SEU tries to deny Special Relativity Theory.

Your new clue: it doesn't matter what you see behind you. That includes the psychiatric rape machines in the bushes. Get help. Take the medicine. Go post your psychotic fantasies elsewhere. This is a science site. We don't do psychiatry here and can't help you.

Dec 28, 2018
-contd-
@JaxPavan

In other words, Jax, you (and others), as that spaceman out there in your spacecraft are looking at it with 2 POINTS OF VIEW, which you have decided to call redshift and blueshift. But in your spacecraft, you are looking forward and seeing an huge object moving away from you. You decide to call that movement "redshift". Then, when you look behind your craft you find that other huge objects are following you, so you call that "blueshift".
But, if you REALLY TRY to understand the phenomena - you will find that it is ONLY from your HUMAN PERSPECTIVE that something is fleeing from you and something else is following you.
The traffic is going one way - and YOU are out there in the middle - watching that traffic and not realising that YOUR perspective is meaningless.
Scientists cling to their human perspectives - even when the Truth is in front of them.

Dec 28, 2018
The Earth's motion relative to the CMBR is about 700 km/s.

This is the Truth.

Maybe @SEU YEC troll forgot.

Dec 28, 2018
@SEU can't even get a vote. At least I get a 1. No vote is a zero.

Dec 28, 2018
-contd-
@JaxPavan
Now Jax, if you take your spacecraft and somehow were able to move over to the side to get out of the way of all that traffic - besides your aging billions of Earth years - you will actually SEE, from your vantage point - (almost like standing on the sidewalk while watching the St. Patrick's Day parade go by) - that the traffic of galaxies and their Stars, etc. are ALL GOING ONE WAY. The galaxy up ahead is going too slow? Why, the one right behind it will encompass the slowpoke if it doesn't move fast enough.
If you have ever stood on a street corner and watched the flow of traffic on a one-way street, you should notice that each vehicle moves relative to the one in front to prevent accidents.
But galaxies have no such compunction for niceties, and in their haste/velocity, they will slam into the one ahead of it that is not keeping up the pace. This preserves the NATURAL ORDER.

Dec 28, 2018
-contd-
@Jax
Now according to our eyes in the sky - the galaxy Andromeda is scheduled to move within our Milky Way galaxy in some billions of years, unless the MW hastens enough to avoid that future collision from behind. No need for redshift/blueshift, since Andromeda will only be following the path - and any stragglers ahead of her will be assimilated like the Borg. LOL

Dec 28, 2018
It's quite revealing when references to well-known papers in the scholarly literature get downvoted. It's pretty much like downvoting Darwin one gets the impression that someone doesn't know who Perlmutter and Goldhaber are. It's kinda like not knowing who Newton and Einstein are.


No, it's a further statement of our rejection of you as a Physorg Moderator who changes this chatroom's Comments not only of your own, but others here in this chatroom, for your own personal ego because you can't compete in the arena of ideas on a level playing field.

You screw up simple math solutions & when myself, and others, point them out you use your Physorg Moderator status to cover up your screw ups hoping no will notice. Well, schneibo old man, I've been noticing it for about a year & it was over in the Singularity article you pulled the biggest bald faced episode of lying & changing Comments that I was'nt gonna let pass.

Now you're the complainant, screw you old man.


Dec 28, 2018
@SEU can't even get a vote. At least I get a 1. No vote is a zero.


Further demonstrating how bad you are at math other than over in the Singularity article where you were demanding a solution to a gravity equation by dividing by "zero". And when I pointed out to you how dividing a whole number in the numerator by zero (distance) in the denominator is incalculable, you were horrified that I could come to such a conclusion.

So now you have come up with another phantom zero that has you stumped for an answer. There is no zero that can be averaged in to the 1-5 field of numbers of Stars. Therefore a no vote is not a 0 averaged into the field from which the average is made.

Good thing you never attempted Differential Equations in High School like jonesy claims he did.

Dec 28, 2018
@Benni and @SEU sittin' in a tree
k-i-s-s-i-n-g

Dec 28, 2018
Either of you two nutjobs have anything to say about the evolution of giant elliptical galaxies?

Just askin'.

Dec 28, 2018
Nice try at burying the Goldhaber and Perlmutter papers with your BS, BTW. I bet @Jax never responds; you two nutjobs certainly can't.

Dec 28, 2018
Here are the links to the papers in case anyone missed them:

https://arxiv.org...4382.pdf
http://www.slac.s...tter.pdf

Anybody who's dissing a Nobel Prize winner is automatically a troll unless they can produce equal evidence.

I see none. I see a couple trolls making troll love trying to bury it with 1 votes.

Dec 28, 2018
Guess I should have said "innumerate trolls." Since neither of them can do math.

Dec 28, 2018
I mean seriously, someone who cannot tell the difference- and the dependence- of r and r² isn't qualified to discuss gravity. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the volume of water and the speed at which it comes out of the firehose.

Dec 28, 2018
Still waiting for the discussion of the evolution of giant elliptical galaxies. With like math and stuff.