Study finds pollution is deadlier than war, disaster, hunger

October 20, 2017 by Katy Daigle
Study: World pollution deadlier than wars, disasters, hunger
In this June 5, 2017, file photo, toxic froth from industrial pollution floats on Bellundur Lake on World Environment Day, in Bangalore, India. Environmental pollution - from filthy air to contaminated water - is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi, File)

Environmental pollution—from filthy air to contaminated water—is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. More than smoking, hunger or natural disasters. More than AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria combined.

One out of every six premature deaths in the world in 2015—about 9 million—could be attributed to disease from toxic exposure, according to a major study released Thursday in the Lancet medical journal. The financial cost from pollution-related death, sickness and welfare is equally massive, the report says, costing some $4.6 trillion in annual losses—or about 6.2 percent of the global economy.

"There's been a lot of study of pollution, but it's never received the resources or level of attention as, say, AIDS or climate change," said epidemiologist Philip Landrigan, dean of global health at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, New York, and the lead author on the report.

The report marks the first attempt to pull together data on disease and death caused by all forms of pollution combined.

"Pollution is a massive problem that people aren't seeing because they're looking at scattered bits of it," Landrigan said.

Experts say the 9 million premature deaths the study found was just a partial estimate, and the number of people killed by pollution is undoubtedly higher and will be quantified once more research is done and new methods of assessing harmful impacts are developed.

Study: World pollution deadlier than wars, disasters, hunger
In this Dec. 12, 2015, file photo, visitors to a park gestures at each other near chimneys spewing smoke in Beijing. Environmental pollution - from filthy air to contaminated water - is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. One out of every six premature deaths in the world in 2015 - about 9 million - could be attributed to disease from toxic exposure, according to a major study released Thursday, Oct. 19, 2017 in The Lancet medical journal. (AP Photo/Ng Han Guan, File)

Areas like Sub-Saharan Africa have yet to even set up air pollution monitoring systems. Soil pollution has received scant attention. And there are still plenty of potential toxins still being ignored, with less than half of the 5,000 new chemicals widely dispersed throughout the environment since 1950 having been tested for safety or toxicity.

"In the West, we got the lead out of the gasoline, so we thought lead was handled. We got rid of the burning rivers, cleaned up the worst of the toxic sites. And then all of those discussions went into the background" just as industry began booming in developing nations, said Richard Fuller, head of the global toxic watchdog Pure Earth and one of the 47 scientists, policy makers and public health experts who contributed to the 51-page report.

"To some extent these countries look to the West for examples and discussion, and we'd dropped it," Fuller said.

Asia and Africa are the regions putting the most people at risk, the study found, while India tops the list of individual countries.

One out of every four premature deaths in India in 2015, or some 2.5 million, was attributed to pollution. China's environment was the second deadliest, with more than 1.8 million premature deaths, or one in five, blamed on pollution-related illness, the study found.

Study: World pollution deadlier than wars, disasters, hunger
In this Aug. 31, 2017 file photo, a barbed-wire fence encircles the Highlands Acid Pit that was flooded by water from the nearby San Jacinto River as a result from Harvey in Highlands, Texas. Environmental pollution - from filthy air to contaminated water - is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. One out of every six premature deaths in the world in 2015 - about 9 million - could be attributed to disease from toxic exposure, according to a major study released Thursday, Oct. 19, 2017 in The Lancet medical journal. (AP Photo/Jason Dearen)

Several other countries such Bangladesh, Pakistan, North Korea, South Sudan and Haiti also see nearly a fifth of their premature deaths caused by pollution.

Still, many poorer countries have yet to make pollution control a priority, experts say. India has taken some recent actions, such as tightening vehicle and factory emission standards and occasionally limiting the number of cars on New Delhi's roads. But they have done little about crop burning, garbage fires, construction dust or rampant use of the dirtiest fossil fuels.

A court ban on firework sales before the Diwali festival didn't stop New Delhi residents from firing rockets and lighting crackers throughout Thursday night. They awoke Friday morning to acrid, smoke-filled skies and levels of dangerous, lung-clogging particulate matter known as PM2.5 that went beyond 900 parts per million—90 times the recommended limit by the World Health Organization, and 22 times higher than India's own limits.

"Even though better pollution norms are coming in, still the pollution levels are continuously increasing," said Shambhavi Shukla, a research associate with the Delhi-based Center for Science and Environment, which was not involved in the Lancet study.

To reach its figures on the overall global pollution burden, the study's authors used methods outlined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for assessing field data from soil tests, as well as with air and water pollution data from the Global Burden of Disease, an ongoing study run by institutions including the World Health Organization and the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington.

Study: World pollution deadlier than wars, disasters, hunger
A cyclist pedals through the morning smog a day after Diwali festival, in New Delhi, India, Friday, Oct. 20, 2017. Environmental pollution - from filthy air to contaminated water - is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. One out of every six premature deaths in the world in 2015 - about 9 million - could be attributed to disease from toxic exposure, according to a major study released Thursday, Oct. 19, 2017 in The Lancet medical journal. (AP Photo/Manish Swarup)

Even the conservative estimate of 9 million pollution-related deaths is one-and-a-half times higher than the number of people killed by smoking, three times the number killed by AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria combined, more than six times the number killed in road accidents, and 15 times the number killed in war or other forms of violence, according to GBD tallies.

It is most often the world's poorest who suffer, the study found. The vast majority of pollution-related deaths—92 percent—occur in low- or middle-income countries, where policy makers are chiefly concerned with developing their economies, lifting people out of poverty and building basic infrastructure. Environmental regulations in those countries tend to be weaker, and industries lean on outdated technologies and dirtier fuels.

In wealthier countries where overall pollution is not as rampant, it is still the poorest communities that are more often exposed, the report says.

"What people don't realize is that pollution does damage to economies. People who are sick or dead cannot contribute to the economy. They need to be looked after"—which is also costly, Fuller said.

"There is this myth that finance ministers still live by, that you have to let industry pollute or else you won't develop," he said. "It just isn't true."

Study: World pollution deadlier than wars, disasters, hunger
Raisina hill, government seat of power is seen engulfed in morning smog a day after Diwali festival, in New Delhi, India, Friday, Oct. 20, 2017. Environmental pollution - from filthy air to contaminated water - is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. One out of every six premature deaths in the world in 2015 - about 9 million - could be attributed to disease from toxic exposure, according to a major study released Thursday, Oct. 19, 2017 in The Lancet medical journal. (AP Photo/Manish Swarup)

The report cites EPA research showing that the U.S. has gained some $30 in benefits for every dollar spent on controlling air pollution since 1970, when Congress enacted the Clean Air Act, one of the world's most ambitious environmental laws. Removing lead from gasoline has earned the U.S. economy another $6 trillion cumulatively since 1980, according to studies by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Some experts cautioned, however, that the report's economic message was murky. Reducing the pollution quantified in the report might impact production, and so would not likely translate into gains equal to the $4.6 trillion in economic losses.

The report "highlights the social and economic justice of this issue," said Marc Jeuland, associate professor with the Sanford School of Public Policy and the Duke Global Health Institute at Duke University, who was not involved in the study.

Without more concrete evidence for how specific policies might lead to economic gains, "policy makers will often find it difficult to take action, and this report thus only goes part way in making the case for action," he said.

Jeuland also noted that, while the report counts mortality by each pollutant, there are possible overlaps—for example, someone exposed to both air pollution and water contamination—and actions to address one pollutant may not reduce mortality.

Study: World pollution deadlier than wars, disasters, hunger
Morning walkers exercise amidst smog due to firecrackers burnt in Thursday's Diwali festival, in New Delhi, India, Friday, Oct. 20, 2017. Environmental pollution - from filthy air to contaminated water - is killing more people every year than all war and violence in the world. One out of every six premature deaths in the world in 2015 - about 9 million - could be attributed to disease from toxic exposure, according to a major study released Thursday, Oct. 19, 2017 in The Lancet medical journal. (AP Photo/Manish Swarup)

"People should be careful not to extrapolate from the U.S. numbers on net (economic) benefits, because the net effects of pollution control will not be equivalent across locations," he said.

The study's conclusions on the economic cost of pollution measure lost productivity and health care costs, while also considering studies measuring people's "willingness to pay" to reduce the probability of dying. While these types of studies yield estimates at best, they are used by many governments and economists trying to understand how societies value individual lives.

While there has never been an international declaration on pollution, the topic is gaining traction.

The World Bank in April declared that reducing pollution, in all forms, would now be a global priority. And in December, the United Nations will host its first conference on the topic of pollution.

"The relationship between pollution and poverty is very clear," said Ernesto Sanchez-Triana, lead environmental specialist at the World Bank. "And controlling pollution would help us address many other problems, from climate change to malnutrition. The linkages can't be ignored."

Explore further: Air pollution kills over 500,000 Europeans a year: report

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dogbert
1.6 / 5 (10) Oct 20, 2017
Even the conservative estimate of 9 million pollution-related deaths is one-and-a-half times higher than the number of people killed by smoking, three times the number killed by AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria combined, more than six times the number killed in road accidents, and 15 times the number killed in war or other forms of violence, according to GBD tallies.


Studies which produce, not hard data, but estimates, are presented as if the estimates were a fact. For example, pollution (air pollution?) is estimated to kill 1.5 times as many people as smoking kills. Really? And the number of people killed by smoking is also an estimate.

Should policy be based on your guess or my guess (or the average guesses of many people)?

Pollution control should be a goal of any nation or state. But measuring pollution in estimated death numbers may be counter productive.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (7) Oct 20, 2017
I wonder how this compares to sitting around smokey fires in hogans, yurts, trees and caves? People lived with smoke in confined spaces for so long that perhaps they have developed an affinity for it. So much so that they have a compulsion to suck on burning leaves through little white straws wherever they go.

Perhaps this explains in part the addiction to a drug that does nothing but alleviate its own withdrawal symptoms. Perhaps it explains in part the allure of a drug that only makes you confused and paranoid.
FredJose
1.6 / 5 (14) Oct 20, 2017
One should not forget that one highly quantifiable millions in number of people gets murdered every year, in fact every day, all over the world and no one is making any noise about it.

It's called ABORTION. Many more exactly countable deaths are happening in the millions and no one is allowed to raise a damn anymore because it's a HUMAN right. Strange isn't it? Whatever happened to the small human's right to life?
resinoth
5 / 5 (7) Oct 20, 2017
People can directly profit from the creation of pollution.

No one directly profits from AIDs, Automobile crashes, war, famine, etc. This is the crux of the problem -
to take away one's means for livelihood is a violation of one's human rights (according to international watchdogs), yet many peoples' means for livelihood is unabashedly polluting.

Until polluters are taxed for their pollution, this has no hope of resolution. This means political movement. We've been banking on the energy-singularity via technology, but that's like budgeting with lottery tickets.
MR166
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 20, 2017
Sorry but pollution, as does everything else , has a cost benefit ratio involved. The fossil fuel emissions are a prime example of this. In many cases a tax on polluters is really a tax on consumers. One could mandate that drinking water be 100% free of harmful elements but then no one could afford running water.
tblakely1357
1 / 5 (6) Oct 20, 2017
Well to many on this board anything that hastens humanity's extinction is a good thing, right?
MR166
1.6 / 5 (9) Oct 20, 2017
On the contrary, it could be claimed that industrial pollution has allowed man to thrive. As an example the american indians lived natural lives but their populations remained small.
rrrander
1.4 / 5 (9) Oct 20, 2017
Pollution is being neglected because of the emphasis on CO2 control. China's air, water and land are about 2/3rds contaminated, but hey, as long as they control harmless CO2...
yep
5 / 5 (8) Oct 21, 2017
On the contrary, it could be claimed that industrial pollution has allowed man to thrive. As an example the american indians lived natural lives but their populations remained small.


The estimated population of the Dominican Republic pre Columbus was 4 million within twenty years it was 100,000. If is also estimated some 90% of Natives in the Americas were wiped out over he next couple hundred years. You might need to revise your theory.
EnricM
4.8 / 5 (6) Oct 21, 2017
One could mandate that drinking water be 100% free of harmful elements but then no one could afford running water.


You mean like in the Netherlands, for instance? ;)
Remember that there are more countries in this planet and that there actually people, like me, living here :)

https://www.volks...4253528/

The fun thing is that my country is not among the best in air quality or other forms of pollution.
Da Schneib
5 / 5 (7) Oct 21, 2017
Surprised by the number of people in favor of pollution. Wonder how much they favor automobile accidents and how much they favor freedom from seatbelts.

Teh stupid it burnz
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (5) Oct 21, 2017
It's called ABORTION. Many more exactly countable deaths are happening in the millions and no one is allowed to raise a damn anymore because it's a HUMAN right. Strange isn't it? Whatever happened to the small human's right to life?
Abortion is the necessary response to overpopulation, caused by religionists efforts to outgrow and overwhelm the competition, and to fill up the world with more of them and fewer of everybody else.

Religion CAUSES overpopulation. Religion is thus RESPONSIBLE for worldwide abortion, to the tune of ONE BILLION+ since roe v wade.
http://www.johnst....html#SU

Without this wholesale reduction in overgrowth the world would have long since descended into yet another global war, a nuclear holocaust.

Next time you read Matt6:25-34, Psalm127:3-5, and gen1:28 you can reflect on all the damage your pleasant little fantasies have done and the ruin they have caused. And the lives they have cost.
MR166
2 / 5 (6) Oct 21, 2017
"Surprised by the number of people in favor of pollution."

You are missing my point. Yes you could run a farm and create zero pollution, use no insecticides, have no animal feces or emitted gasses and spread no fertilizer. The only problem with that plan is that you would be lucky to feed yourself let alone people in the cities. We accept some pollution because the good outweighs the bad in some, not all, cases.
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Oct 21, 2017
Religion CAUSES overpopulation. Religion is thus RESPONSIBLE for worldwide abortion, to the tune of ONE BILLION+ since roe v wade.
-And we can also conclude that religion is responsible for the current level of pollution and ecological destruction as countries struggle to provide for their unsustainable populations.
somefingguy
5 / 5 (10) Oct 21, 2017
One should not forget that one highly quantifiable millions in number of people gets murdered every year, in fact every day, all over the world and no one is making any noise about it.

It's called ABORTION. Many more exactly countable deaths are happening in the millions and no one is allowed to raise a damn anymore because it's a HUMAN right. Strange isn't it? Whatever happened to the small human's right to life?


For the sake of your immediate family, people in your community and all of mankind, I sincerely hope you're trolling.
Beethoven
5 / 5 (2) Oct 21, 2017
Religion CAUSES overpopulation. Religion is thus RESPONSIBLE for worldwide abortion, to the tune of ONE BILLION+ since roe v wade.
-And we can also conclude that religion is responsible for the current level of pollution and ecological destruction as countries struggle to provide for their unsustainable populations.
sure some religions are pro unlimited population growth, but it's globalization and modern medicine that enable it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Oct 21, 2017
sure some religions are pro unlimited population growth, but it's globalization and modern medicine that enable it
The religions which have survived to the present have done so simply because they were better at outgrowing and overrunning the competition.

What we are left with are ideologies based upon overgrowth as a weapon. 'Warfare if the cradle' is what teddy roosevelt called it. Maximizing growth requires that women do nothing else but make babies until it kills them. All charity goes to families that have grown too large to support themselves.

60% of gazans are living on subsistence from abroad.

Technologies have always exacerbated the tendency to outgrow resources as cultures struggle to keep up. But today's religions all rely on the idea that god will provide for however many babies they can produce. And when he fails to do so he blames the infidel for all their problems, and says that they are more deserving of what the infidel has than he is.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Oct 21, 2017
The west has over the centuries been able to instill in It's people the idea that they are responsible for their future, and not god. It has done so by gradually and deliberately throwing off the influence of religion in their daily lives.

This has not been easy. It has required wars, revolutions, and the instillment of brutal ideologies such as communism, designed to force religion to release its grip on humanity.
sirdumpalot
3 / 5 (2) Oct 21, 2017
some metaphysics - believing in things without relying on observation/measurement at some level - is a curse of not just the religious world, but the philosophical, and in some cases (de-Broglie Bohm) the 'scientific' (Pilot wave is by definition unobservable).. human minds work efficiently at creating essence and form, that's basically evolution's tool. Deny it and you hit nihilism. Choose the middle way - Nagarjuna and relational quantum mechanics!!

(also, in the case of pollution, it's strange how the world doesn't just want to invest to invent some clean tech and make a nicer planet in 50 years or something.. inefficient economic-political models!)
Theo520
2 / 5 (5) Oct 22, 2017
Not very useful research, or maybe it's just the article.
- Since half the 'premature' deaths are tallied in China and India, it's really a regional issue, not a global endemic. The article should have focused on the few locations that have the serious issue.
- Life expectancy is increasing in all the countries, especially in India and China. This means the benefits from whatever they are producing must be outweighing these pollution impacts and then some.
warmonger
4 / 5 (4) Oct 22, 2017
Since half the 'premature' deaths are tallied in China and India, it's really a regional issue, not a global endemic. The article should have focused on the few locations that have the serious issue.


Well, considering they are 37% of the world's population, they should be pretty close to 50% I'd say.
daqddyo
5 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2017
This discussion has drifted away from the original points about our current polluted world.

You can blame religion for overpopulation but remember that in the early days (2000-250 years ago), lifespans were very short, and more importantly, childhood deaths were very common so if families were to survive, they needed to have 8+ births so that a small number of the kids could grow to adulthood.
Once modern medicine (antibiotics and proper diets) came on the scene, families no longer needed 12 kids running around. These days, it is unseemly to have so many children.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
You can blame religion for overpopulation
You bet I do.
but remember that in the early days (2000-250 years ago), lifespans were very short
This was true throughout the Pleistocene.
childhood deaths were very common so if families were to survive
Absolutely. Humans are a tropical species whose reproductive rate developed in response to high tropical attrition rates. Overpopulation became a problem when humans became able to hunt the predators that were keeping their numbers in check.

Agriculture was the desperate attempt to feed overgrown pops. But it meant storing the harvest, which then had to be protected from other tribes and from roving bands of outcast marauders.

Every time civilization could be established it was overrun and destroyed. City mounds throughout the middle east record this cycle of order followed by chaos.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
But as tribal society developed through intertribal competition, religion emerged as a way to increase internal cohesion while at the same time direct animosity toward competing tribes.

Tribes throughout the middle east all had their own tribal gods. Jehovah was one such entity, who guaranteed it's people that they alone were worthy of inhabiting the earth, which was after all a typical sentiment of tribal pseudospeciation.

But this particular tribe employed a successful strategy of survival and conquest; that being to fight fire with fire, of maximizing growth, in order to overwhelm competitors whose growth was dictated by natural means.

They maximized the human reproductive potential by subjugating women and relocating them to making babies until it killed them.

The older a woman gets the more dangerous reproduction becomes. So when women are in charge of repro rights they will limit the number of babies they produce.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
The abrahamic religions were able to eliminate this bottleneck.

Rome fought a continuous war with the Hebrew province for 200 years before finally destroying the temple and ending it's rule. But jews had already spread throughout the Mediterranean by proselytism and propagation. Which is why Rome had to concoct its own religion that made jews the murderer of its god and thereby deem them public enemy #1.

But this new religion adopted the very mechanism that had made monotheism so successful; they kept the Torah as an inseparable part of their own holy book for the purpose of maximizing their own growth.

And the next great religion to emerge, Islam, is only a stripped down and intensified version of the first two.

This is how the world was conquered and consolidated, the older religions overrun and extincted, overarching stability established, and progress ensured.

But now control has been returned to the woman because the world is full to overflowing. Religion must end.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
Errata: "They maximized the human reproductive potential by subjugating women and RELEGATING them to making babies until it killed them."
TheGhostofOtto1923
5 / 5 (1) Oct 22, 2017
The next great conquest will be of the male religions by the female secular world. This is the new world order described by the senior Bush in his speech 10 years to the day before 9/11.

Male quantity must yield to female quality. Civilization finally has the technology to maintain civilization without having to field great armies full of hapless religionists.

Growth has already been slowed and stopped in the west. The third world will soon consume itself. When countries make all religions within their bounds equal then none can survive hallejulia.
MR166
1 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2017
Otto as religion is wiped off the face of the earth it's values are being replaced by government edicts. You might find that comforting but I fear that the consolidation power in the hands of the few will be the end of any freedom of thought and action that we posses. There are already chants of "Eliminate hate speech on the internet" by governments. There is one small problem with that, who exactly will determine what is hate and what is truth.
MR166
1 / 5 (4) Oct 22, 2017
Otto according to the Declaration of Independance our rights, as US citizens, are granted to us by God. We cede some of these rights to government for the good of all. Do you really want to live in a godless society where your rights are granted to you by a government?
eigenschwarz
5 / 5 (5) Oct 22, 2017
Otto according to the Declaration of Independance our rights, as US citizens, are granted to us by God. We cede some of these rights to government for the good of all. Do you really want to live in a godless society where your rights are granted to you by a government?


The irony in your question is that the Declaration of Independence, is, by definition, a governmental document granting our rights via the Second Continental Congress.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2017
Otto as religion is wiped off the face of the earth it's values are being replaced by government edicts
Good. Because the primary 'value' of every religion is that if you don't believe in our god and worship him in our own particular way then you are incapable of being good and honest and decent and trustworthy. And that's a value that we do not need.

See the first 5 commandments for details.
Do you really want to live in a godless society where your rights are granted to you by a government?
I don't know where you live but in the US the laws are decided by the people. I certainly wouldn't want to live under a religionist govt that said either you believe or you suffer. Which is how any govt would be if religion was allowed to control it.

See Iran, pre-revolution France and England under Henry VIII. Et al ad infinitum.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2017
are granted to us by God
Your god, the god of Abraham, doesnt exist. How many times do I have to demonstrate this to you?

Your perfect, infallible, morally impeccable god wrote a book full of lies about a people who never existed and events that never happened.

So either he didn't know the past, or he knew it and chose to ignore it. Or perhaps he did have enough power and temerity to obliterate all evidence for his history and replace it with totally convincing contrary evidence.

But then we have to conclude that he is either incompetent or a liar. And why would he lie to us in order to find out how much we trust him?

At any rate, this inept liar god is certainly not the self-described one in your book. And tellingly, your book is the only place where we can find a description of him.

Ergo, he does not exist.
EyeNStein
5 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
We are going to kill a lot more people than that by inaction; if we don't develop new antibiotics soon.
Or maybe even up to 30% of some populations if we don't get a vaccine for H7N9 sorted before it goes pandemic. (as it must do eventually)

https://www.reute...BN1CO2DD
tblakely1357
2.3 / 5 (7) Oct 22, 2017
"Your god, the god of Abraham, doesnt exist. How many times do I have to demonstrate this to you?"

While I'm not a believer, your arrogance and ignorance is mind boggling. Remember, just in the 20th century atheists (arrogant people just like you) caused more death and destruction than in all of the religious atrocities in history. And when you factor in that most religious atrocities were actually 'secular' atrocities that use religion as a handy justification the comparison is even worse.
MR166
1.7 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2017
"The irony in your question is that the Declaration of Independence, is, by definition, a governmental document granting our rights via the Second Continental Congress."

At the risk of being pedantic, there is a big difference between recognizing existing rights and granting rights.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
Remember, just in the 20th century atheists (arrogant people just like you) caused more death and destruction than in all of the religious atrocities in history
Another religionist lie. Hitler was a Roman Catholic. SS swore an oath to Hitler "so help me god." 'Gott mit Uns' on all wehrmacht belt buckles. The catholic church fully supported hitlers rise to power AND nazi persecution of jews.

As for communism it is a pseudoreligion replete with a holy book, a chosen people, a promised land (the world), and several messiahs.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao learned all they needed to know, from the bible. So did mohammad.
While I'm not a believer, your arrogance and ignorance is mind boggling
And because you dont know anything about the subject you think these are MY conclusions. Study up on Christopher Hitchens, Bart Ehrman, and the majority of ME archeologists and historians both secular and religious.

Until you do, why don't you keep your mouth shut? Godder?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2017
when you factor in that most religious atrocities were actually 'secular' atrocities that use religion as a handy justification
Huh. Well none come to mind but I can see where edicts to stone heretics, apostates, insolent children and wayward women would come in handy.

As well as Joshua's genocidal rampage through the holy land where he destroyed over 200 cities, towns, and villages, often killing all the men, women, children, cattle, and olive trees he could find. Except of course for the occasional passel of young virgins whom god told him were ok to rape.

And when Israel balked, god sent Gideon to finish the job.

Good thing none of THAT never happened eh?

Oh but just think of all the carnage, the pogrom, the crusade, the heretic burning, the persecution, the butchery those haughty tales have inspired over the centuries. Mein Kampf and das kapital were quaint romance novels in comparison.

Not to mention martyrdom, the most foul form of violence ever conceived.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Oct 22, 2017
when you factor in that most religious atrocities were actually 'secular' atrocities that use religion as a handy justification
Actually now that I think of it 2 do come to mind - the Taiping rebellion (30M dead) inspired by Baptist missionaries and initiated by a despot who thought he was Jesus Christ, and the 30 years war which started as conflict between Catholics and protestants and which resulted in the deaths of 1/3 the German population.

Xian apologists have thought up clever secular explanations but -
you and I both know the truth dont we? At least I do.

Oh and there was the Rwanda genocide when 1,000,000 Rwandans were killed during the 100-day period from April 7 to mid-July 1994, mostly with machetes, aided and abetted by catholic priests and nuns currently under the protection of the church.

But sure, we can think of plenty of non-religious reasons why that might have happened.

They herded them into their churches and set them on fire.
howhot3
5 / 5 (3) Oct 22, 2017
So @Ghost it seems you have a good argument. When you look at what has been done throughout history by the conflicts created by religious dogma and zealotry, it's amazing a country like the USA can exist with it's multi-ethnic multi-culturalism. I think in the USA constitution, the concept of "Freedom of Religion" means you can practice or not practice what you believe as long as it is with in the laws of the USA. Like you, in my case, I prefer to practice Freedom OF Religion. But I also respect my fellow citizens rights to practice Islam (or whatever), if they respect my right to disagree and be a heathen.

That said, with regard to pollution, it's an equal opportunity killer unlike wars of religions. It comes about when it's easier to push something out of the way, than it is to do something about it. Over population isn't the cause, but it does make things worst. Pollution is something that just follows mankind. It's just a byproduct of civilization sadly.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Oct 22, 2017
I dunno the most polluted countries seem to be the most religious ones.
https://en.wikipe...ntration

-with the exception of China. Although that list is by city, and China is a very big place.

But we know their population problems were so bad they had the one-child-per-family law to try to mitigate it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Oct 22, 2017
Re China, I would have to guess that the reason they ended up being communist was to destroy the religionist culture once and for all that had been causing their chronic overgrowth.

Brits fought 2 wars to maintain the supply of opium, the traditional destroyer of cultures. And when we consider the taiping rebellion, the Japanese occupation, the revolution and associated slaughter; and before that the Mongol occupation, the great walls and other such deadly megaprojects, the bloodthirsty dynasties, and who knows what else, this culture has been especially recalcitrant and problematic for a very long time.
Porgie
1 / 5 (4) Oct 23, 2017
The study was done by a panel of card carrying Obama supporters with no facts and only conjecture as their source. This is liberal BS!
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) Oct 23, 2017
The study was done by a panel of card carrying Obama supporters with no facts and only conjecture as their source.

This seems like...conjecture.
KBK
5 / 5 (1) Oct 23, 2017
The propaganda companies that worked to kill the tobacco cancer connection, those companies hired by big tobacco, those EXACT same companies have been hired by corporations (big oil, etc) to kill of the climate debate. They are using the same tactics and methods, which worked back then. But modernized to deal with the internet.

OK?

Very serious here, look it up.

Due to this incredibly dangerous one sided view and associated blocking tactics that have intervened... we're now in a heap of trouble.

Climate and pollution denial is slick, directed, controlled and any other related term you can use. 100% true by any and all reasonable measure. It's no conspiracy to say so, when it is true.

All you have to do is confirm it by looking--web searching terms, etc. You have to do the footwork yourself, in order for it to stick in your psychology the way it needs to, in order for the message to be effective.

They are in these comment sections -by bot or by overseer...

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