Study: Islamic fundamentalism is not a marginal phenomenon in Europe

January 16, 2015
Demonstrations against the Paris attacks at the Place de la Republique in the French capital. Credit: Olivier Ortelpa

Last week's attacks in Paris, committed in the name of a god, reopen a badly-healed scar in Europe. The world once again turns towards religious fundamentalism. A new study shows that hostility towards other out-groups is not an isolated phenomenon among Muslims living in Europe; but nor is it a synonym of violence. According to the author of the study, Ruud Koopmans, director of the WZB Berlín Social Science Centre (Germany), "Islam is not the problem".

The attack on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo -which sold five million copies of its latest issue around the world on Wednesday 14 January- was not merely an act of aggression against freedom of expression and against human life; it was also an attack on the religious values of a large majority of Muslims living in the European Union, whose ideals are peaceful and even flexible among the youngest members of the community.

For Ruud Koopmans, sole author of a study published in early January in the Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies and director of the WZB Berlin Social Science Centre (Germany), religious fundamentalism is defined in three ways: that believers should return to the eternal and unchangeable rules laid down in the past; that these rules only allow one interpretation and are binding for all believers; and that religious rules should have priority over secular laws.

The sociologist insists that religious fundamentalism -also interpreted as strict religiosity- is an ideology, that is a set of ideas that refer to attitudes towards the way of viewing life.

"Fundamentalism does not necessarily include or justify violence, as this is a form of behaviour and not an ideology," explains Koopmans in a phone call from Berlin (Germany). The specialist compares this fundamentalism with fascism and communism, other ideologies that are not synonymous with violence.

Nevertheless, "religious fundamentalism may encourage radicalisation. In general, it should not imply violence, although out-group hostility may be evident," continues the expert.

But religious fundamentalism is not unique to Islam: the term originated with a Protestant movement in the early 20th century in the USA, which propagated a return to the 'fundaments' of the Christian faith and to a literal interpretation of the rules of the Bible.

Extended ideologies but not universal

Koopmans' study, based on a survey in 2008 of 9000 Europeans, compares the religious fundamentalism of immigrants and the children and grandchildren of Turkish and Moroccan Muslim immigrants (Sunni Muslims and to a lesser extent Alevites) of Turkish and Moroccan origin and native European Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses and Pentecost believers) in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and Sweden, countries with a long generational history of immigration.

"Broadly speaking, between 40% and 45% of European Muslims have fundamentalist religious ideas, that is they agree with the three definitions of the term. Austria is the country with the highest percentage, 55%, while Germany has the lowest, 30%", explains Koopmans.

According to the scientist, fundamentalism is not a marginal phenomenon among Muslims in Western Europe. "Although a majority of Muslims have more liberal views of the religion, this minority of fundamentalist Muslims is significant", underlines the researcher who adds that although these attitudes are widespread "they are not universal among European Muslims".

The results show that if first and second generations are considered and if each definition is taken independently, almost 60% would return to the roots of Islam, 75% think there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick, and 65% say that religious rules are more important to them than the rules of the country in which they live. "However in second generation Muslims the levels are slightly lower (between 50% and 70%)," states the expert.

According to the study, Islamic fundamentalism, also known as Islam, prevails in Europe if compared to Christian fundamentalism, in which only 4% of Christians shared the ideas of the three statements of the definition. Among Protestants, fundamentalism reached 12%. "All fundamentalists are strictly religious but this does not mean that all strictly religious individuals are fundamentalists. Strict religiosity is more frequently associated to Islamic fundamentalists than to Christians," claims the author.

In addition, Christian and Islamic fundamentalism decrease when the social and economic status is higher, "and this is even more so among the Muslim community", indicates the sociologist. Nevertheless, "although in Europe religious fundamentalism is more widespread in Islam, in the USA it is Christian fundamentalism, especially among Protestants, which has the greatest support," observes Koopmans who points out that the data from the study cannot be extrapolated to the rest of the world.

In Spain, with a more recent history of immigration, and for this reason not included in the study, followers of religious fundamentalism, in particular Islam, reach similar figures. A study conducted by the American PEW Research Centre revealed that Islamic fundamentalists make up more than 30% of the followers. "In fact, there is not much variation in the European countries," declares the Researcher.

Hostility towards out-groups

The reactions generated as a result of the latest attacks in the French capital have merely served to fortify a growing Islamophobia and rejection of Muslims. "But Islam is not the problem. Nor is it true that a majority of Muslims have fundamentalist ideals," says the expert.

Religious fundamentalism is not new. Since the nineties, these attitudes are found among Christians and in Islam, remaining stable in the case of the latter.

"What is relatively recent is the growth of violence, linked to the situation in Syria and Iraq, and which has served to aggravate the problem", maintains Koopmans. Other studies claim that between 10% and 15% of EU Muslims are prepared to use violence to defend their faith.

Although violence does not necessarily form part of this ideology, hostility towards other out-groups including homosexuals, Jews, and Westerners (in the case of Muslims) or Muslims (in the case of Christians) is evident. As a whole, Muslims are shown to be more hostile towards the three out-groups mentioned above, with between 25% and 30% rejecting these groups. Christian hostility is not as much as 5%.

However, independently, Christian fundamentalists show greater hostility towards Muslims (more than 50%) and towards Jews (between 30 and 35% of Christian fundamentalists were revealed to be hostile). In the case of Islamic fundamentalists, more than 70% of followers feel hostility towards homosexuals, Jews and Westerners.

Religious fundamentalism is closely linked to hostility towards other out-groups," says Koopmans. But social and economic levels also have a bearing. Individuals with a high social and economic status are more tolerant and less xenophobic.

Explore further: Liberal democracy is possible in Muslim-majority countries

More information: Koopmans, Ruud. "Religious Fundamentalism and Hostility against Out-groups: A Comparison of Muslims and Christians in Western Europe" Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies 41(1): 33-57 DOI: 10.1080/1369183X.2014.935307, 2 January 2015

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arpotu
5 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2015
Nice statistics. Now, how do we prevent religious extremists from killing innocent people or trying to write their dogma into law?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2015
Cowards.
Did Spain forget its Muslim occupation?
kochevnik
5 / 5 (1) Jan 16, 2015
Nice statistics. Now, how do we prevent religious extremists from killing innocent people or trying to write their dogma into law?
This is akin to asking why lunatics set free from the asylum are running amok and terrorizing the public

Because they can
julianpenrod
2 / 5 (4) Jan 16, 2015
A few crucial points.
Despite the pose of necessary superiority, many Americans are "fundamentalists" willing to use murder against non believers. For most Americans, though, the "faith" is consumerism and personal comfort and they'll cheer the engine for making the obscenely rich obscenely richer, the "government", using CIA/Mossad/MI-5 criminal activities to destroy native populations to steal their resources.
And, again, no answer from the Muslim haters about why everything is happening now! The technology and supposed hatred of the U.S. were there before September 11, but it was only after that date that the rapid fire of high profile, major civilian oriented incidents occurred! More than a century of such event sin less than a decade and a half.
And it's proved even comfortable Muslims can become fundamentalist fighters, not just the poor. If their indoctrination techniques are so good, why don't we employ them to turn Muslims the other way?
ab3a
3 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2015
I have to wonder how much of this is due to more restrictive European citizenship laws than one finds in North America (Despite the public debate, US and Canada have much looser laws).

In this case, immigrants continue to feel marginalized because they never really become citizens of a country they grew up in. And then we sit and wonder why the haters in their religions find so much fertile ground...
kochevnik
3 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2015
I have to wonder how much of this is due to more restrictive European citizenship laws than one finds in North America
Apparently not sufficiently restrictive to stop the West from filling with radicalized irrational fucknuts
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 16, 2015
The technology and supposed hatred of the U.S. were there before September 11


The 'east' has hated the 'west' since the time of Darius.
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 16, 2015
LOL genius physorg commenter rhsthjnty apparently wants Europe overrun with radical religions while he tries to recall his role in turning Ukraine into s**t
ShotmanMaslo
1 / 5 (1) Jan 16, 2015
I have to wonder how much of this is due to more restrictive European citizenship laws


very little

also European citizenship laws, while more restrictive than those of the US, are still quite permissive, truly the last thing we need is even bigger influx of ultra-conservative muslim citizens
MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 16, 2015
@julianpenrod

The indoctrination has its roots in the ultimate scriptural legitimacy of the Jihadist philosophy - the hardliners are correct, and the moderates cannot answer them. Khomieni was right, all the salafists are right, differing only in the fine details.

In the UK the writing was clearly on the wall by the mid 90's - see Jon Ronson's documentary and book "Oh, What a Lovely Jihad" profiling the teachings and exploits of Omar Bakri Mohammed (who was basically running a terror training camp out of a Tilgate forest Scout hut), from 1997.

Of course the roots go back centuries before this, to Mohammed himself and his conquests, and those of his later heirs (ie. the umayyads) - he was a clan warlord, killing people and stealing their property, along with women and children, as 'booty' to be shared between his followers. The word "islam" literally means "surrender" or "submission" - reflecting the choice of submittal, dhimihood or death faced by his victims.

MrVibrating
1 / 5 (1) Jan 16, 2015
Moreover, consider why he's regarded as a "prophet" - what is prophethood, and what was his prophecy?

In Islam a prophet is one who communes directly with God; not via an intermediary such as the entiry 'Jibril' (Gabriel) whom is credited as Mohammed's source for the Qu'ran since his first awakening in the cave. Thus Mohammed only finally qualifies as a prophet in his Miraj (or 'night journey') - when he ascended to heaven to meet Allah and all the Jewish prophets, who told him he and his followers would conquer the world, until all religion was for Allah - a global Sharia.

That is his actual 'prophecy' - Jihad for global dominion. He said Constantinople would fall, and by the grace of his fervent devotees, so it did. He also said Rome will... and the rest of the world. And insha'allah.. by the grace of his submitters, that is their solemn duty.

"By all strategems of warfare" - if you can't fight, then donate. If you can't donate, then preach (da'wah), until it's done.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 16, 2015
In which city… women must cover their bodies and hair and face when in public?; women can't drive?; alcohol is banned?; drug use is punished with beheading?; only one religion can be practiced?; only Muslims are allowed?;
a: Rome
b: Jerusalem
c: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
d: Mecca, KSA
e: Tulsa, OK
MrVibrating
5 / 5 (1) Jan 16, 2015
Final point - Islam practices a de facto policy of 'critical mass' in its coercion - below which it is peaceful and benevolent, but beyond which it becomes increasingly bellicose. Most members will remain peaceful, despite harboring contempts for the host infidel society, but the overall raising of the ambient bar for intolerance they engender gives succor, whether physical, financial or moral, to the would-be Jihadists amongst them, until eventually their violent ambitions cannot be restrained.

Then the overwhelming majority of peaceful practitioners (™) reproach and disown their extremist progeny, yet all the while blaming the host societies' policies, domestic and foreign, for bringing the turkeys home to roost.

We saw this again following the Paris atrocities last week, as 'moderate' spokesmen were wheeled out to blame Western support for Israel and our alleged double standards towards violence in palestine - even contradicting the claims of the terrorists themselves.!
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 16, 2015
Islam practices a de facto policy of 'critical mass' in its coercion - below which it is peaceful and benevolent, but beyond which it becomes increasingly bellicose


It's part of their doctrine. To lay low until the time is right to rise up and conquer.
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (1) Jan 17, 2015
And insha'allah.. by the grace of his submitters, that is their solemn duty.

Is this some kind of a joke? Are you one of those sick minds?
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 17, 2015
"About 6 percent of the country's population is Muslim, predominantly North African and Turkish immigrants living in isolated neighborhoods in major cities. As the Belgian blogger and freelance terrorist tracker Pieter Van Ostaeyen writes, "The Belgium government over the last several decades never really succeeded integrating the Islamic communities." Moroccan and Turkish immigrants and their children are far more likely than other Belgians to live in serious poverty. "
http://www.slate....ium.html
What is typical of the rest of the story is how everyone else is to blame for the actions of the Muslim communities failure to become Belgian.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2015
Meanwhile in Mecca....
"Saudi Arabian authorities publicly beheaded a woman in the holy city of Mecca after a court convicted her of sexually abusing and murdering her stepdaughter. The kingdom has executed nine people only two weeks into the new year."
http://www.breitb...-square/
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2015
"In Graphic Photos and On Twitter, ISIS Members Record and Tout Executions of Gay Men"
http://www.thedai...men.html
Where is the homosexual lobby?
MrVibrating
1 / 5 (1) Jan 17, 2015
Is this some kind of a joke? Are you one of those sick minds?

You've got to be kidding? You ignore three whole posts of context to single out that one line and ask me if i'm a sympathiser? Duh. It's rhetorical parody, to illustrate the Islamist mindset. No, i am not a fan. I read Qu'ran and Sunnah to try to understand the issues - particularly the disparity between what we're told about Islam by its representatives and our own leaders, and what we read in the news every day.

The answer is that Jihadist ideology goes to the very heart of Islamic theology - Mohammed's very prophethood is inexorably intertwined with the imperative to achieve global Sharia by any and all means - especially violence; to kill and be killed in the cause of Jihad is Islam's highest accolade, granting a place at Mohammed's right-hand side in paradise for the brave shahid.

Contrary to what we're repeatedly told, this is not a 'curruption' of Islam, but a core edict.
ryggesogn2
4 / 5 (1) Jan 17, 2015
I read Qu'ran and Sunnah to try to understand the issues


I agree with your conclusions and want to point out that according the Saudis, no translation of the koran is legitimate. (Which is why they say the modern Bible is a false book.)
They assert that because the koran, in the original Arabic, is the only official version.
Modern Arabic is not the same as 'old' Arabic which leaves the koran and Islam in the control of 'experts'.
The current muslim year is 1436.
The Guttenberg Bible was printed around 1450.
Until that time, the Bible was primarily in the original languages or Latin, which few could read and was interpreted by 'experts'.
Many believe there must be a Muslim reformation. The first Christian Reformation required over 1000 years.
Islam is due.

MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
Pretty much - the Qu'ran was an oral tradition for 400 years prior to its collation by Abu Bakr - this is why it's ordered by shortest Surat to longest, easing the process of memorisation, rather than by chronological order (which is also the main reason why the application of chronological abrogation is so opaque) - the Arab world didn't achieve literacy until the invention of Kufic in the 10th century.

And yes, the assertion that classical Arabic is God's native tongue, thus rendering all translations false, is just logically meaningless on every count - even if God was Arabic, there's translation and transliteration - with sufficient context everything can be accurately translated.

Islam takes a strict extrapolation of monotheism to conclude that all religions were originally the same revelations / recitations (Qu'rans) of Islam, but have been corrupted over time by man - this explains similarities with say Judeochristianity, but also the differences;

(cont.)
kochevnik
1 / 5 (1) Jan 17, 2015
Moreover, consider why he's regarded as a "prophet" - what is prophethood, and what was his prophecy?
If astrology is to be respected then the next messiah, replacing Tamus son of Nimrod immaculately conceived by Ishtar will be born under aquarius. This messiah will replace the jee-sus (meaning son of Isis) who allegedly under the siqn of pisces

His message will be about penis worshiping with cooked horus/dionysus/jesus analogue, except it will be told in a way that morons will think it is completely original and inspirational. Maybe Quentin Tarantino will be a new disciple?
MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
Islam and the Qu'ran are simply the most recent, and thus unadulterated reproduction of the same religion that all others began as.

Similarly, everyone is naturally born Moslem - hence one doesn't convert to Islam, but rather 'reverts' to the default faith.

However for precisely the same reasons, a reformation is particularly difficult to envisage - Mohammed was the last, final prophet of the one true God - there can be no others (such as proffered by the 'apostate' Ahmadiyya sect), and as explained, his very 'prophecy' was literally the inexorable Islamisation of the entire universe (all worlds, not just Earth). The reason the extremist intepretation is correct is that Mohammed's later, uncompromising decrees 'abrogate' any former, more concessionary ones; the two periods dividing into the earlier Medinan period, where he was still striving for dominance, and the later Meccan period once he'd achieved it.

Thus the salafists have scriptural legitimacy over would-be moderates.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2015
he Qu'ran was an oral tradition for 400 years


Not according to Saudis, the experts on Islam (just ask them).
Mohammed wrote the Koran.

And I agree with MrVs assessment.
Which is why the Islamic world considers Obama a Muslim.
MrVibrating
1 / 5 (1) Jan 17, 2015
Moreover, consider why he's regarded as a "prophet" - what is prophethood, and what was his prophecy?
If astrology is to be respected then the next messiah, replacing Tamus son of Nimrod immaculately conceived by Ishtar will be born under aquarius. This messiah will replace the jee-sus (meaning son of Isis) who allegedly under the siqn of pisces

His message will be about penis worshiping with cooked horus/dionysus/jesus analogue, except it will be told in a way that morons will think it is completely original and inspirational. Maybe Quentin Tarantino will be a new disciple?


That's as maybe, but according to Islam you couldn't think up a more sacrilegious set of beliefs if you tried (falling foul of both 'shirk' and 'bid'ah'). Obviously you're a cursed mouthpiece of Shaytan himself, and must be obliterated (as publicly and humilatingly as possible).

Or you could just repent, pay the Jizya, or convert. Oops i mean 'revert'.
gkam
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
We will not survive as a species unless we outgrow our pathetic need for a Cosmic Daddy, an invisible companion to love us, punish us severely, and tell us we really won't die if we make silly gestures and sounds and show up in certain places, or whatever.
MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
he Qu'ran was an oral tradition for 400 years


Not according to Saudis, the experts on Islam (just ask them).
Mohammed wrote the Koran.

"Qu'ran" literally translates (if such a thing is possible, which as you point out the fanatics deny) as "recital" - the first word Jibril spoke to Mohammed in the cave was "recite".

Hence the traditional emphasis upon memorisation of the entire book. The belief is that prior to Abu Bakr's collation, the entire work was distributed between many individual scripts recorded by Mohammed's personal devotees - Abu Bakr simply collected them all together and did the jigsaw, the correct arrangement of which was implicit within the texts.

In reality though, Mohammed was illiterate, and Kufic (the first Arab script) was definitely invented in the 10th century.

This is why 'hafiz' remain so revered, and the zenith accomplishment of madrasah studies.
ryggesogn2
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
In reality though, Mohammed was illiterate,


I don't disagree with anything and just want to point out that this is used by Saudis to assert the koran is from Allah. How else could Mohammed have written the koran without direct direction from Allah.
MrVibrating
5 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2015
We will not survive as a species unless we outgrow our pathetic need for a Cosmic Daddy, an invisible companion to love us, punish us severely, and tell us we really won't die if we make silly gestures and sounds and show up in certain places, or whatever.

Quite agree. The basic underlying theme is the desire for super-human powers.

If i can persuade a sky fairy to curse you, or ruin your crops etc., then i basically have the power of telekinesis. If the dualism of mind and body is real, then i can defy death and be immortal.

The whole shooting match is about attempting to transcend the gross incompetence of 'god's' actual 'creation', which is a flawed and uninspiring handicap, and ascend to the dizzying heights of gods ourselves... we want to be supermen, with superpowers.

Religion is errant contempt for the true gifts of existrence. The only valid source of objective truths is the scientific method.
MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
In reality though, Mohammed was illiterate,


I don't disagree with anything and just want to point out that this is used by Saudis to assert the koran is from Allah. How else could Mohammed have written the koran without direct direction from Allah.

I know, i'm just riffing off your prompts... :)
TechnoCreed
not rated yet Jan 17, 2015
Is this some kind of a joke? Are you one of those sick minds?

You've got to be kidding? You ignore three whole posts of context to single out that one line and ask me if i'm a sympathiser? Duh. It's rhetorical parody, to illustrate the Islamist mindset.

Well I had to make sure about that. As you can see, the discussion did not start until I gave you the occasion to clarify your position; after that, more people came out to express their thoughts.

We will not survive as a species unless we outgrow our pathetic need for a Cosmic Daddy..,
Religion is errant contempt for the true gifts of existrence. The only valid source of objective truths is the scientific method.

What I get from that last reply is, that although your background is from Islamic culture, you can discuss about Islam with enough detachment that whatever is said here will not seriously upset you.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 17, 2015
The is a fundamental difference between post-reformation Christianity and Islam.
Luther was motivated by the corruption of the Church, a political institution, a world empire if you will, that promoted 'good works' and ways one could earn their way to Heaven, with enough money, of course.
Muslims, too, can earn their way to heaven by following the five pillars.
After Luther, Christians rediscovered Paul's message that man can DO nothing to earn his way to Heaven. All man could do is BE as faithful to God as he could be, and by God's grace alone, be with God forever.
This may be a subtle difference to you evangelical atheists, but it is quite a significant one.
ryggesogn2
3 / 5 (2) Jan 17, 2015
I was told by Saudis that women needed to be covered to limit the temptation to Muslim men.
Non-muslims working in Saudi during Ramadan may eat, drink, smoke, etc. but NOT in the presence of muslims who are fasting. They must not be tempted.
I compare this with a muslim I met in a Las Vegas park. He brought his boys to play as did I. I didn't know it was Ramadan, and he was preparing to grill chicken to eat after sunset and made to big deal about me drinking water or eating in front of him.
We are beginning to see muslims demanding pork be banned from restaurants and some comply. It's not enough for them to live and let live.
Maybe this is why 'liberals' and muslims are simpatico. They both have an unquenchable need to force other to live the way they think we should live.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 18, 2015
"Islam is not the problem."

-No, religion is the problem.

"Fundamentalism does not necessarily include or justify violence, as this is a form of behaviour and not an ideology," explains Koopmans in a phone call from Berlin (Germany)."

-No, as long as religionists are able to grow their numbers and expand without limit. But the books all require violence when resistance is encountered, and they all give explicit instructions on how to defeat the infidel who is interfering with their god-given mandate to fill up the earth.

After all, conquest is the primary theme of the Torah isn't it? And jesus taught how to conquer from within via revolution.
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 18, 2015
@vibrating Similarly, everyone is naturally born Moslem - hence one doesn't convert to Islam, but rather 'reverts' to the default faith.
Actually, everyone is naturally born an atheist. Religion is an environmental disease
Shootist
5 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2015
it was also an attack on the religious values of a large majority of Muslims


Secular Muslims maybe, if there is any such thing as a secular Muslim, otherwise, horseshit.
MrVibrating
5 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2015
@TechnoCreed - i'm actually an athiest of Catholic extraction. I read Islam for a few years post-911 in order to understand the Islamists and get a better handle on what was unfolding.

@kochevnik - i was relating Islamic belief (as i made quite clear). For myself, i think we're born with a healthy propensity to fear malevolent agency, and some initial difficulty in ascribing it (ie. monsters in the closet), which some of us learn to outgrow, while most, unfortunately, do not, yet.
TechnoCreed
5 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2015
@TechnoCreed - i'm actually an athiest of Catholic extraction. I read Islam for a few years post-911 in order to understand the Islamists and get a better handle on what was unfolding.
Oh to bad, it would have been nice to have this kind of conversation with an authentic moderate Moslem who would have shown as much openedness as you did. Thank you anyway.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 18, 2015
"Hollande just found it necessary to deploy his army to defend Jewish schools from Muslim terrorists, not Muslim schools from Jewish terrorists—but anti-Muslim bigotry is a salient and seemingly permanent feature of life in France. Or to contextualize it differently: Anti-Muslim feeling appears to be more widespread than anti-Jewish feeling across much of France, but anti-Jewish feeling has been expressed recently (and not-so-recently) with far more lethality, and mainly by Muslims."

http://www.theatl.../384592/
Jonseer
not rated yet Jan 20, 2015
ryggesogn2
Everything you wrote after you said you met a Muslim is an obvious lie. LOL
The sort of fundamentalist Muslim you describe, wouldn't be caught dead in LV. They really do consider LV to be sin city.
Approx. 1400 Muslims out of a pop. of approx. 1,400,000 makes your claim they are demanding general service restaurants obey halal totally absurd.

Fundamentalism is the twin of being conservative.
Your list of illegal things in Saudi Arabia are legal in the West thanks to LIBERAL initiatives.

Liberals fight for the right to live the way we want provided doing so does NOT take that right from someone else.
Your beef with liberalism is you have to be considerate.

Christian fundamentalists use gubment to force women into a 2nd class role, pass laws severely restricting drinking and mandatory life terms for drug offenses.
Mormons are responsible for Utah having the strictest drinking laws in the nation. Methodists were the driving force behind prohibition
Jonseer
not rated yet Jan 20, 2015
In reality though, Mohammad was illiterate


He was, you mean like Jesus, especially Jesus considering that he was born in far more modest settings ensuring he would have never been taught to read and write.

Mohammad was a merchant before he became what he is now to Muslims. It's kind of impossible to be a merchant and illiterate, because that means you can't make deals or count beyond 10 or so.

Honestly, I loathe what Islam teaches, but I loathe the need to make up outright lies in order to discredit Islam almost as much.

In lying you give Muslims justification for feeling persecuted.

In any case what difference does it make that Mohammad was illiterate or not considering the ability to read and write was restricted to the nobility and the slaves who served them AND merchants who had to be able to to conduct business.

There are so many facts that someone can use to discredit Islam and all religions.

It's pathetic that people resort to making up lies instead.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2015
No one ever asserted that Jesus wrote the New Testament.

Muslims asserted Mohammed did write the koran.

"A text that may be the oldest copy of a gospel known to exist — a fragment of the Gospel of Mark that was written during the first century, before the year 90 — is set to be published."
http://www.realcl...905.html

Everything you wrote after you said you met a Muslim is an obvious lie. LOL

F**k Y*U.

Liberals fight for the right to live the way we want provided doing so does NOT take that right from someone else.


BS.
'Liberals' TAKE rights from others to force you to live the way THEY say you should live.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2015
The sort of fundamentalist Muslim you describe, wouldn't be caught dead in LV. They really do consider LV to be sin city.


"Yet a flick through the Yellow Pages remarkably turns up four mosques. Masjid-e-Tawheed, the newest, set up just two years ago, is the only one that extends an invitation to discover Las Vegas's hidden Muslim life in a 10,000-strong community so unlikely that even visiting Muslims are astonished to find it exists."
http://www.thegua...as-vegas

Strong faith communities exist where most challenged in numbers.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Jan 20, 2015
No one ever asserted that jesus wrote the Old Testament
No but they have asserted that the gospels were written by apostles, or at least eye witnesses, which isn't true.
http://en.wikiped...estament

-Upwards of 40% of the works attributed to Paul are forgeries. Much of the NT is forged, that is, claimed to have been authored by someone who didn't write them. The Torah was not written by 'Moses' as he didn't exist as there was no exodus. Etc.

Many passages such as the 'cast the first stone' parable and the last 11 verses of mark were added centuries after the books were written.
MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 20, 2015
@Jonseer - as said repeatedly, the Arab world was illiterate until the invention of Kufic script in the 10th century. Prior to this its traditions were oral - hence the emphasis on rote memorisation that still presists today. The context of this point is that the Qu'ran is organised by order of smallest chapter to largest, easing the process of memorisation for its initiates, and that this non-chronological ordering obfuscates the delineation of later edicts from earlier conflicting ones they abrogate. This is critical because earlier in his ministry he was more conciliatory, but hardened once he'd gained dominance - the two periods being the earlier Medinan, and later Meccan. This distinction is most important because it is used by the Jihadists to justify their violence, and to silence those pursuing a more moderate interpretation, as painstakingly explained already - if only you'd apply your own literacy skills.

And Jesus, as all Jews, was literate, if not impressively so.
MrVibrating
5 / 5 (1) Jan 20, 2015
Otto - when you've finished grinding that axe (just kidding, we all know you'll never be finished):

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified

A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda's attitude toward the U.S.

Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.

Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.

35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).

This terifiying snippet is just a taste of the surveys listed here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2015
Theyre just a little behind the times. Consider what the typical 19th century xian reaction would be to 20th century events.

Islam in the 12th century was actually very liberal and progressive. They tolerated other religions, preserved classical knowledge, and made great leaps in science and technology.

But they reverted didnt they? This is because while culture and fashion may change, the books never change.

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

"On his return trip from Asia, Pope Francis said Catholics should practice "responsible parenthood" and don't have to breed "like rabbits."

-for the moment that is.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2015
"Bill Maher, champion of free speech, excoriated Pope Francis for pontificating that free speech should be limited to remarks that are inoffensive. Maher bluntly said, "He's dead to me now. Oh yeah, fuck the pope."
ryggesogn2
not rated yet Jan 20, 2015
"The nation's establishment press is virtually ignoring the existence of horrifying and officially approved Islamic State videos showing the executions of accused homosexuals and adulterers. - See more at: http://newsbuster...YV.dpuf'
MrVibrating
3 / 5 (2) Jan 20, 2015
The much-touted Islamic tolerance of the 12th century was actually dhimmitude (look it up, it's not nearly as nice as it sounds) - and then only offered to the 'people of the book'; all others being 'reverted' or annihiliated.

Yes the Bible contains passages that'd make your toe nails curl, especially if taken as advice - but the point is, they're not read that way, are they? Certainly not by any sizeable numbers running amok causing mayhem.

The difference in Islam, and the reason a reformation seems impossible, is because its harder line has greater scholarly jurisprudence than any of its more moderate tones, as i've been at pains to elaborate. The overriding message of Judeochristianity is NOT smashing babies' heads against rocks by the rivers of Babylon, even though it contains that sentiment, whereas the ultimate point of Islam [i]is[/i] total submission. Xtians want xtianity to save everyone's immortal souls, Islam wants to enslave them and erradicate resistance.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 20, 2015
Given all you have said Mr. V, which I agree with, why don't atheist 'liberals' attack Islam with the enthusiasm they do Christianity?
Could it be it is the doctrine of Islam to kill the atheist 'liberal'?
While the doctrine of Christianity is to turn the other cheek, love them and pray for them?

MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 20, 2015
(cont.)

It doesn't teach forgiveness, reconciliation, and tolerance - rather, these are weaknesses, justifying its inevitable domination. Any concessions Mohammed made to equality, unconditional love or zen-like equanimity were very much conditional, and 'abrogated' (Google it) by later decrees. Besides, how do you think Islam conquered the world of the late middle ages anyway? By olive branch and the power of reasoned debate? You overestimate the carrot / stick ratio.

But don't listen to me - just check for yourself, read Mohammed's prophecies, words and deeds. Islam's 'reformation' is happening right now, on every TV screen - the Salafis are bringin' it back old skool style, in the immaculate example of Allah's final apostle. Welcome to the gobal Jihad.

The Ahmadis dispensed with violent Jihad, but look where that 'reformation' got them.. no, what the Sunni and Shia are doing is the real deal, and actually justified in authentic scripture, wihout innovation (bid'ah).

MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 20, 2015
@ryggesogn2 - kowtowing to aggression is certainly part of the problem - the media dignifies Jihad every time it acknowledges Mohammed as 'prophet' (is Jesus constantly referred to as Christ in the free press?)..

Here in the UK there's no real beef with Liberalism - they're seen as lofty idealists, a tad wet, perhaps, but not pursuing any injurious agenda. We're all liberalist, with a small 'l', to some extent.

The real difference is that, being a nominally Christian culture, criticism of that religion falls out of our traditions of satire, colonial guilt and good-natured self-deprecation (self-effacing humility, and eschewing absolutisms). Whereas, any criticism of the 'other' - especially foreign ideologies - is very thin ice indeed, for much the same reasons. So it's that, plus the fear.

Lots of fear.

In short, nobody wants to offend 2 billion peaceful Moslems (2 billion! - image how much 'peace' they could wreak if things got awkward!)
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 21, 2015
nobody wants to offend 2 billion peaceful Moslems

If they are peaceful, they won't care.

The 'liberals' have destroyed the education system flat out ignoring and dismissing the great history of the English speaking peoples and how they have improved the world.

One would think that Jante's Law as been applied to the English speaking culture.

If we won't stand up for Western Civilization, who will?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2015
Bible contains passages that'd make your toe nails curl, especially if taken as advice - but the point is, they're not read that way, are they? Certainly not by any sizeable numbers
OF COURSE they are. Joseph kony is using joshua and his LRA to massacre and enslave thousands. The xian Serbian militias were ethnically cleansing the Caucasus until we stopped them. The IRA was killing children in the name of god. The Taipei rebellion was instigated by US southern baptist missionaries, and 20 million died. Hundreds died during bloody Kansas. Priests were complicit in the rwanda/burundi massacres. And how many did the KKK persecute and murder?

Etcetcetc.

Conditions of acute overpopulation are currently driving Moslem extremism. These conditions are CAUSED by all religions. The books ALL require violence when these conditions inevitably arise.

The religions which are best at outgrowing and overrunning their enemies are the ones we are left with today. ALL OF THEM.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2015
Xtians want xtianity to save everyone's immortal souls, Islam wants to enslave them and erradicate resistance
Its just not true. All religions require submission to the will of god. The instructions found in the books are all the same. They all promise the same rewards for the same egregious kinds of behavior.

And the books will never change.

You can't take a snapshot of history and use it to discern the relative qualities of any one religion. Over the course of history they have all proven to elicit the same barbarous behavior from their adherents, when the same conditions warrant it.

This includes Buddhism where wars in Sri lanka and clashes along the Thai border continue. If Buddhism wasn't good at defending itself it would have been eradicated long ago, as it in fact was throughout India where it originated.

Martyrdom - presenting oneself and ones family for killing - is a particularly foul form of violence, and is again required by all religions.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 21, 2015
Islam wants to conquer the world the same way as xianity actually did a few centuries ago. This is after all the will of god. And where can the will of god be found? IN THE BOOKS.

"And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." gen1:29
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 21, 2015
"2014 saw atheists and progressives embroiled in what looked like an all-out war. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a female genital mutilation survivor and one of the fiercest critics of Islam in the atheist movement, was disinvited from a planned speaking engagement at Brandeis University for her criticism of Islam, and was stripped of her honorary degree. Salon.com immediately applauded the decision."
"Progressives may be overwhelmingly atheist, but there is only so much heresy they can stand. One of their core beliefs is that you do not "punch down"–that is, attack vulnerable or marginalised communities. Islam, despite being the dominant religion of dozens of nation-states, is said by progressives to fall into this category."
http://www.breitb...al-left/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 21, 2015
"A black Vanderbilt University professor's op-ed critical of Islamic terrorism has touched off a wave of protest by Muslim students and other critics.

The op-ed author is Carol Swain, a longtime professor of law and political science at Vanderbilt and a self-proclaimed political conservative. Her op-ed, entitled "Charlie Hebdo attacks prove critics were right about Islam," appeared in The Tennessean (Nashville's main newspaper) on Jan. 15.

Swain, who opposes burqas and advocates stronger efforts at assimilation for American Muslims, argued that Islam "poses an absolute danger to us and our children unless it is monitored better than it has been under the Obama administration.""
http://dailycalle...silence/

Why do 'liberals' support Islam over women and blacks?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 21, 2015
Why do 'liberals' support Islam
Why did bush allow millions of illegal hispanics into this country? Same reason - america is a melting pot. It is designed to attract the brightest and most ambitious from around the world, bring them together, and encourage them to interbreed.

And with each gen the differences become less distinct, the population as a whole more homogenous. The ideologies fade. As someone once said the best way to mitigate the effects of religion is to bring adherents of many different faiths into close contact with each other.

The majority of the various target demographics are deeply religious and so it behooves the leadership of this country to make it seem as if america is a safe haven for religionists of all types. After all who would come here if they knew that this country was run by atheists?

But the Goal is obvious: to undo the damage wrought at the tower of Babel, to reamalgamate the human race, and above all to reduce growth by ending religion.
MrVibrating
5 / 5 (1) Jan 22, 2015
@Otto - you're conflating nationalist and antijihadist conflicts that involve Xians for ones driven by Xanity. Show me the Xian analog of Surat 9, or dividing the world into the land of war vs land of submission, or Jihad.

Jesus taught universalism, unconditional love, forgiveness and redemption. Mohammed chopped people's heads off, stole their property, made slaves of women and children (and Africans (AKA "abeeds")), "married" a 6 year old girl, and yet is considered "uswa hasana" (the model of conduct) and "al insan al kamil" (the perfect man). Exemplarary in word and deed, to be emulated by all.

I guarantee you if you would only read Islam, you'll start to find a little more appreciation for Judeochristianity, if only as a bulwark against the Jihadists..
kochevnik
5 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2015
@MrVibrating I guarantee you if you would only read Islam, you'll start to find a little more appreciation for Judeochristianity, if only as a bulwark against the Jihadists..
I had a parallel epiphany upon seeing "Dumb and Dumber"
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 23, 2015
Jesus taught universalism, unconditional love, forgiveness and redemption. Mohammed chopped people's heads off, stole their property, made slaves of women and children


Evangelical atheists (E.A.s) chose not to separate doctrine from those who interpret doctrine.

Weak, immoral people fail, misinterpret, misunderstand, ...doctrine so the doctrine is wrong, according to the E.A.s. or 'liberals' as they attack the US Constitution for the same reasons.

MrVibrating
not rated yet Jan 24, 2015
@MrVibrating I guarantee you if you would only read Islam, you'll start to find a little more appreciation for Judeochristianity, if only as a bulwark against the Jihadists..
I had a parallel epiphany upon seeing "Dumb and Dumber"

I'm not advocating supernatural beliefs, my point is simply that you'd presumably be somewhat more circumspect in crtisising Islam than Christianity, if our veils of anonymity were lifted. The penalty for critisicism of christianity is oblivion in the afterlife, but offending Islam incurs a death sentence in this one. Dumb and dumber indeed, but none so dumb as the moral equivalence that 'all religions are equally wrong' - no, when it comes to existential threats in THIS life, some are unarguably wronger than others.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2015
"The fact that many of the supporters appear to be middle class, grandparents, or young couples doesn't matter. As one government minister remarked, they are merely "Pinstripe Nazis". Nor does it matter that as was revealed on Wednesday, 20-year old Eritrean Khaled Idris Bahray was actually killed by his flat mate, rather than a roving band of politically engaged Germans protesting against government policy."
http://www.breitb...to-know/
kochevnik
not rated yet Jan 24, 2015
I'm not advocating supernatural beliefs, my point is simply that you'd presumably be somewhat more circumspect in crtisising Islam than Christianity, if our veils of anonymity were lifted. The penalty for critisicism of christianity is oblivion in the afterlife, but offending Islam incurs a death sentence in this one. Dumb and dumber indeed, but none so dumb as the moral equivalence that 'all religions are equally wrong' - no, when it comes to existential threats in THIS life, some are unarguably wronger than others.
Nonsense. Christianity advocates pedophilia, slavery, murder and genocide as well as human extinction. It claims the Earth is mere toilet paper for the chosen to wipe their proverbial ass. Religionists are sick people. There is no lite version of belief=self delusion or mass delusion=religion. Someone who believes they are the right hand of some superbeing need only some opportunity to be a monster
MrVibrating
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2015
LOL try and contain your bilious hatred of religion for one moment and consider the thread topic - are Christian fundamentalists around the world actually enacting the crimes you list, in the name of Christianity?

You're supposed to be here commenting on why Islamists are doing this, and not everyone else.

I'm no proponent of the supernatural, of any ilk. But moral equivalency - the pronunciation that all interpretations of morality are equally at fault, isn't just self-evidently wrong, but also an exercise in amorality; absolving oneself of any moral compass entirely. You would have no problem with your daughter marrying a good Moslem man, because he's a good man - irrespective of his creed. But if your Moslem daughter wished to marry a good Christian man, you'd be in a serious dilemma. You can preach Islamic doctrine on the streets of your neighborhood, but try preaching Christianity in an Islamic society and you may well find yourself in jail.
MrVibrating
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2015
Point is, Christian values - quite aside from their supernatural underpinnings or eschatology etc. - promote freedom to be wrong, to cause offence, to take personal responsibility for one's faults and justify oneself to one's maker as we see fit.

Whereas Islamic values are inherently fascistic - granting no freedom to be wrong, offensive or answerable only to St. Peter and the pearly gates - on the contrary, you're answerable to the clerics, muftis, fundamentalsits etc. long before you get the chance to check your score card with Allah.

If you can't concede this undeniable fact then you're just another moral equivalist, all-religions-are-equally-wrong equivocator and apologist for the Jihadists. Crusaders resorted to cannibalism, so Jihadists are justified in doing so. Hitler was culturally Christian, so Nazism is a development of Christian culture. It's BS, cowardice, and completely useless commentary.. with which the Islamists will naturally concur, and thank you for.
MrVibrating
1 / 5 (1) Jan 24, 2015
And before you retort about witch burnings or inquisitions - these are universally accepted as perversions of Christian faith - nowhere within which are there incitations to perform such atrocities.

Islam specifically instructs persecution of transgressors - the Jihadists aren't perverting their religion, but rather militantly prosecuting its explicit instrictions.

This is not a trivial difference, but a direct explanation for the current state of affairs WRT the global Jihad..
kochevnik
1 / 5 (2) Jan 24, 2015
All religions are fascistic. The word regulaire means 'to bind again' in reference to the ties on the sticks that strengthen the Roman axe of fascism. And all xtian rituals are perversions of reason. Xtians have murdered over a billion. They are murdering right now in Ukraine by the alliance of Vatican and Rothschilds banking known as City of London. Xtians are simply more subtle but have outbursts like Hitler and his inquisition endorsed by the Vatican. Religion needs to be treated not promoted. It is a mental illness. Churches should be taxed like any vice or demolished

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