Is your religion ready to meet ET?

Is your religion ready to meet ET?
Square away your personal philosophy now; proof of life beyond earth is coming. Stargazing image via www.shutterstock.com

How will humankind react after astronomers hand over rock-solid scientific evidence for the existence of life beyond the Earth? No more speculating. No more wondering. The moment scientists announce this discovery, everything will change. Not least of all, our philosophies and religions will need to incorporate the new information.

Searching for signs of life

Astronomers have now identified thousands of planets in orbit around other stars. At the current rate of discovery, millions more will be found this century.

Having already found the physical planets, astronomers are now searching for our biological neighbors. Over the next fifty years, they will begin the tantalizing, detailed study of millions of planets, looking for evidence of the presence of life on or below the surfaces or in the atmospheres of those planets.

And it's very likely that astronomers will find it. Despite the fact that more than one-third of Americans surveyed believe that aliens have already visited Earth, the first evidence of life beyond our planet probably won't be radio signals, little green men or flying saucers. Instead, a 21st century Galileo, using an enormous, 50-meter-diameter telescope, will collect light from the atmospheres of distant planets, looking for the signatures of biologically significant molecules.

Astronomers filter that light from far away through spectrometers – high-tech prisms that tease the light apart into its many distinct wavelengths. They're looking for the telltale fingerprints of molecules that would not exist in abundance in these atmospheres in the absence of living things. The spectroscopic data will tell whether a planet's environment has been altered in ways that point to biological processes at work.

If we aren't alone, who are we?

With the discovery in a distant planet's light spectrum of a chemical that could only be produced by living creatures, humankind will have the opportunity to read a new page in the book of knowledge. We will no longer be speculating about whether other beings exist in the universe. We will know that we not alone.

Is your religion ready to meet ET?
Philosophers and scientists have forced worldviews to adapt in the past.

An affirmative answer to the question "Does life exist anywhere else in the universe beyond Earth?" would raise immediate and profoundly important cosmotheological questions about our place in the universe. If extraterrestrial others exist, then my religion and my religious beliefs and practices might not be universal. If my religion is not universally applicable to all extraterrestrial others, perhaps my religion need not be offered to, let alone forced on, all terrestrial others. Ultimately, we might learn some important lessons applicable here at home just from considering the possibility of life beyond our planet.

In my book, I investigated the sacred writings of the world's most widely practiced religions, asking what each religion has to say about the uniqueness or non-uniqueness of life on Earth, and how, or if, a particular religion would work on other planets in distant parts of the universe.

Extrasolar sinners?

Let's examine a seemingly simple yet exceedingly complex theological question: could extraterrestrials be Christians? If Jesus died in order to redeem humanity from the state of sin into which humans are born, does the death and resurrection of Jesus, on Earth, also redeem other sentient beings from a similar state of sin? If so, why are the extraterrestrials sinful? Is sin built into the very fabric of the space and time of the universe? Or can life exist in parts of the universe without being in a state of sin and therefore without the need of redemption and thus without the need for Christianity? Many different solutions to these puzzles involving Christian theology have been put forward. None of them yet satisfy all Christians.

Mormon worlds

Mormon scripture clearly teaches that other inhabited worlds exist and that "the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (Doctrines and Covenants 76:24). The Earth, however, is a favored world in Mormonism, because Jesus, as understood by Mormons, lived and was resurrected only on Earth. In addition, Mormon so-called intelligences can only achieve their own spiritual goals during their lives on Earth, not during lifetimes on other worlds. Thus, for Mormons, the Earth might not be the physical center of the universe but it is the most favored place in the universe. Such a view implies that all other worlds are, somehow, lesser worlds than Earth.

Bahá'í without bias

Members of the Bahá'í Faith have a view of the universe that has no bias for or against the Earth as a special place or for against humans as a special sentient species. The principles of the Bahá'í Faith – unifying society, abandoning prejudice, equalizing opportunities for all people, eliminating poverty – are about humans on Earth. The Bahá'í faithful would expect any creatures anywhere in the universe to worship the same God as do humans, but to do so according to their own, world-specific ways.

Light years from Mecca

The pillars of the faith for Muslims require the faithful to pray five times every day while facing Mecca. Because determining the direction of Mecca correctly could be extremely difficult on a quickly spinning planet millions of light years from Earth, practicing the same faith on another world might not make any sense. Yet the words of the Qu'ran tell us that "Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the do prostrate themselves to Allah" (13:15). Can terrestrial Muslims accept that the prophetically revealed religion of Muhammad is intended only for humans on earth and that other worlds would have their own prophets?

Astronomers as paradigm-shatterers

At certain moments throughout history, astronomers' discoveries have exerted an outsized influence on human culture. Ancient Greek astronomers unflattened the Earth – though many then chose to forget this knowledge. Renaissance scholars Copernicus and Galileo put the Earth in motion around the Sun and moved humans away from the center of the universe. In the 20th century, Edwin Hubble eliminated the very idea that the universe has any center at all. He demonstrated that what the universe has is a beginning in time and that, bizarrely, the universe, the very fabric of three-dimensional space, is expanding.

Clearly, when astronomers offer the world bold new ideas, they don't mess around. Another such paradigm-shattering new idea may be in the light arriving at our telescopes now.

No matter which (a)theistic background informs your theology, you may have to wrestle with the data will be bringing to houses of worship in the very near future. You will need to ask: Is my God the God of the entire ? Is my religion a terrestrial or a universal religion? As people work to reconcile the discovery of extrasolar life with their theological and philosophical worldviews, adapting to the news of life beyond Earth will be discomfiting and perhaps even disruptive.


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Are the world's religions ready for ET?

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Nov 06, 2014
Worry about it when the time comes. Until then someone has too much time on their hands and I hope no government money when for this.

Nov 06, 2014
In a prophecy for the end times, Jesus the Christ warned, "False christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew:24:24).

The apostle Paul expands on this in 2 Thessalonians 2, with a warning about "the lawless one" who comes with "all power, signs, and lying wonders" (verse 9). Paul says it takes a love of the truth—the Bible and God's law—to avoid being deceived by this man of sin, this lawless one (verse 10).

Revelation:13:13-14

says: "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived."

Nov 06, 2014
Mankind is ready to meet ET

Nov 06, 2014
If ET has horns, the reaction here on earth will not be good. If ET has wings, it *might* be better, unless you have seen Dr. Who.

Nov 06, 2014
I'll wait politely until ET raises the subject of religion.

Nov 06, 2014
Christianity has NO PROBLEM with ETs !!!!!

In fact the first hints at ETs is in Genesis when Cain gets kicked out of Eden he is concerned about the others who may kill him.

Bill C

Nov 06, 2014
The bible was written for us, the sons and daughters and talks about God's plans for us and gives us rules and among others things for us to follow. There was no need to say anything about people in Sirus or elsewhere especially when you consider the Bible was written to span thousands of years remaining pertinent to all sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

We are also aware we have a special place in God's creation since it is here on earth where Satan was cast down to, it is here where the battle between good and evil takes and it is also
the world, after being remade, that God will establish His throne and rule all of creation from there.

Bill C.

Nov 06, 2014
If gawd created humans as his pets then what roles do ETs play in christianity? Everything written in the bible can be explained by the psychological phenomenon of agency, mental disease, drugs and ETs. The latter aren't even necessary. No room remains for an omnipotent creator, or even an impotent creator

Bill, Satan is simply Moloch, the Canaanite god of child sacrifice. It was invented by the Vatican to explain their acute interest in pedophilia and sadism toward children in the middle ages. Papal bills were written on the living skin of flailed children as this was deemed to give the words life

Nov 06, 2014
I do not believe they are extraterrestrial.They are inter dimensional. Claiming to be extraterrestrial. is how they will deceive the world. Indeed the church. They are fallen angels cast out of heaven with Lucifer.

Nov 06, 2014
Can terrestrial Muslims accept that the prophetically revealed religion of Muhammad is intended only for humans on earth and that other worlds would have their own prophets


No problem there, provided they precede Mohammed - who was most emphatically the final prophet of the one true god. Islam teaches that all other prophets brought the same fundamental message as Mohammed - ie., that all other religions were, initially, Islamic, but that they became manipulated over time, eventually morphing into their current, 'corrupted' forms. Islam is but the final edition, the last and most accurate, concise revision of the only god-given religion.

So provided extra-terrestrial religions pre-date Islam, in terms of their defining revelations, they'd present no conflict with it. If however they claimed to be more recent, then they'd be tacitly admitting their perfidy, in the form of Bid'ah (innovation), shirk (association of Al-lah with other deities) and as such would be infidels.

Nov 06, 2014
They were here before. It was a time before the flood.

Nov 06, 2014
Seems to me any ET would be traveling from light years away to come here. This would mean that they could directly observe the light of our history. We could have a first hand witness to our past rather than relying on secondhand knowledge passed on through oral history and reprinted books. Finally, it could solve the discrepancies presented in the multiple gospels.

Nov 06, 2014
They were worshiped as gods before.They can not come back with that lie again. They will only be here to deceive mankind. After all that is what Satan and his fallen ones do---deceive.

Nov 06, 2014
A lot of people are going to need psychological help. A study was done around 2009 that showed the reason some people can not accept the overwhelming reproducible proof that there is no God is because they can not allow themselves to believe that they and generations of their families had been so easily hood winked. If we find proof that there is life outside our planet, this would be just more data added to the bucket that some people will want to ignore.

Nov 06, 2014
Is your religion ready to meet ET?

I think that's a non-question...as any kind of ET would not want to meet anyone who still dabbles in religion.

Nov 06, 2014
God doesn't exist?

https://www.youtu...;index=6

Anyone who claims God doesn't exist, MUST also claim if they are sane and logical that there is no such thing as good or evil.

A logical sane atheist cannot say it is evil for a person to do anything, even for a person to rip apart children. Why? A lion isn't evil or good but is just a creature. When it kills it isn't evil it's natural. When a lion kills the offspring of it's predecessor it isn't evil, it's a part of nature. A human, in an atheist world, is nothing more than a creature, and nothing they do is evil or good, just natural.

Nov 06, 2014
I would like to turn this around a bit. What would an atheist do when the ET asks them, "why don't you believe in Jesus who is our Savior as well?"

Nov 06, 2014
"Anyone who claims God doesn't exist, MUST also claim if they are sane and logical that there is no such thing as good or evil."

Why? Anyone who's read the bible would understand that societies determine what is good or evil, not religions. Religions just change to follow the societies' ethics.

Nov 06, 2014
"What would an atheist do when the ET asks them, "why don't you believe in Jesus who is our Savior as well?"

Well, my first thought would be that our bible says that Jesus' Father is evil. Is ET's God evil as well? ;)

Nov 06, 2014
God doesn't exist?

https://www.youtu...;index=6

Anyone who claims God doesn't exist, MUST also claim if they are sane and logical that there is no such thing as good or evil.

A logical sane atheist cannot say it is evil for a person to do anything, even for a person to rip apart children. Why? A lion isn't evil or good but is just a creature. When it kills it isn't evil it's natural. When a lion kills the offspring of it's predecessor it isn't evil, it's a part of nature. A human, in an atheist world, is nothing more than a creature, and nothing they do is evil or good, just natural.

So setting people on fire is good? I'm pretty sure that religious people do that from time to time. Religions sets people on fire, not to eat them like a lion but because they think they can.

Nov 06, 2014
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Nov 07, 2014
Anyone who claims God doesn't exist, MUST also claim if they are sane and logical that there is no such thing as good or evil
@freefromthought
logical fallacy and blatant lie
the definitions of good and evil are culturally based and subjective
just as you likely denigrate the homosexual, there are cultures that embrace them ( http://www.scienc...4551.htm )
so your claims
A logical sane atheist cannot say it is evil for a person to do anything, even for a person to rip apart children
is based upon your own ignorance and fear
not on actual science
if this were the case, then any culture that is not xtian/jesus based would systematically hunt down every other non tribal member outside of the group for extermination and to maintain hunting/survival rights
oddly enough, this happens more frequently with religion than non-religion

Nov 07, 2014
I would like to turn this around a bit. What would an atheist do when the ET asks them, "why don't you believe in Jesus who is our Savior as well?"
@freefromthought
well, according to your own book, that would be impossible because everyone else died in the great flood and there are no records of Noah leaving the planet
in fact, the only possible record you have for extraterrestrials might be Elijah
what would happen if the aliens supported Buddha?
what if they were Wiccans?
satanic?
we can speculate all day long, but just because you think your religion is the best, doesn't mean that it is, nor does it mean it is right... after al, your own xtian religion is one of the the root causes of prejudice and segregation on earth, so why would it be beneficial to keep?

religion is designed to segregate and isolate
it is used to control the weak minded

when you think for yourself, you don't need a sky fairie or boss telling you what is right

Nov 07, 2014
Those who already accept "rock-solid scientific evidence" will probably be delighted like never before.

The stalwart believer crowd will undoubtedly rally-up into an "end times" binge.


Nov 07, 2014
"What would an atheist do when the ET asks them, "why don't you believe in Jesus who is our Savior as well?"

Same thing he would say to a human: "Proof or STFU".

Just because someone is an alien and/or more technically advanced does not confer omniscience or infallibility (i.e. "argument from authority" doesn't make something true - no matter from which part of the cosmos the authority originates)

Nov 07, 2014
Anyone who claims God doesn't exist, MUST also claim if they are sane and logical that there is no such thing as good or evil.

You don't get philosophy. You don't get rhetoric. You don't get that many others here, your adversaries, have a deeper, more nuanced understanding of things than you ever will. Hence your attempts to argue are banal, superficial.

I suppose if we're all God's children, He must love us all. But you're a bit like that problem child who picks his nose at the dinner table, or the one who's a bit slow at toilet training and has inopportune accidents.

Nov 07, 2014
Article conviniently misses mention of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and several other major, ancient religions which do not have Abhrahmic roots. That is so typical of the Abrahmists (Jews, Christians, Muslims, and related branches). The fact is that the Indic beliefs (faiths whose roots are in the region around India, and faiths that collectively command the allegiance of over 2 billion human inhabitants of this world). In the end, Christianity (the white kind) will take all "credit" for predicting ET life by twisting some text in the Bible to rationalize and reconcile the new discoveries with their rather limited view of Earth and Universe. On the contrary, the Indic religions have always known and preached about multitude of life outside of our tiny Earth.

Nov 07, 2014
"Religions and philosophies will need to incorporate..."

-Why? They've done a very good job through the ages of ignoring information, and of convincing others to fear and loathe (and persecute and burn) any who dare to bring this new information to light.
the bible was written for us
-But the question is why does it describe things we know didn't happen and people we know didn't exist? We know that most all the bible stories are fables. If god wrote them for us, does this mean that he expressly wants us to ignore evidence?

Apparently this is the main message of the bible; 'faith despite evidence'. Those who can believe what they read in the holy books, will believe just about anything they are told.

This is how we have been domesticated. Dogs don't give doing back flips for kibble a second thought. Dogs who resist doing tricks are not allowed to reproduce and are often culled as they have no value.

Nov 07, 2014
Is your religion ready to meet ET?

I think that's a non-question...as any kind of ET would not want to meet anyone who still dabbles in religion.


I find it kind of funny that people who take me to task over suggesting the high likelihood of ETs having a carbon based chemistry, or could exist on planets that are baked in solar flares/tidally locked/get 10% the sunlight we get (etc. etc.) think it's fine to make a sweeping statement about something as fickle as CULTURE....

And my personal opinion is that very few religions on this planet tolerate other members of their OWN species who simply believe differently than they do....I think that means any aliens would decidedly not be welcome. Especially if they brought visual records with them of actual events they made around our star 2000 years ago and it shows a different set of events than a particular religious text does.

Nov 07, 2014
special place in gods creation
Yes all religions promise a special place in gods creation, meaning that believers have the right and the obligation to fill up this creation exclusively with believers. It means that all religions are engaged in outgrowing and overrunning their enemies, as the original ethnic cleansers, Moses and joshua and Gideon, demonstrated.

Religious bigotry and the divine mandate to conquer is the root cause of all the wars of history. The religions which were best at it are the only ones to survive. This is group selection at its best.
good and evil
Good has always been that which is good for your tribe and bad for your enemies. Evil has always been just the opposite.

Religions commandeered this dynamic and successfully applied it to groups beyond traditional tribes. Believers could be convinced to hate people who were not obviously enemies.

Hebrews could be convinced to slaughter and purge strangers in far away lands just because god said so.

Nov 07, 2014
for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from and who decides what is moral? Please tell me why, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?

Nov 07, 2014
Jediism is down with ETs

Nov 07, 2014
antialias,

Atheists demands proof to believe in God, the problem with their demand is that the only proof they will accept would need to come from another atheist who believes as they do. It's like telling a child that the moon exists and the child denying it. When you show them the moon, they say it's only a reflection of the suns light.

Nov 07, 2014
Good has always been that which is good for your tribe and bad for your enemies. Evil has always been just the opposite.


While I agree one's interpreteation of good and evil varies based on their point of view, there is still a clear definition of what is good/evil right/wrong in most cases.

Hebrews could be convinced to slaughter and purge strangers in far away lands just because god said so.


Doesn't mean the acts were good or right, just meant they were necessary.

Nov 07, 2014
it's fine to make a sweeping statement about something as fickle as CULTURE....

It's not a matter of culture but of brains. Brains gets you into space. Religion doesn't (because religion is adverse to people using their brains).

If ET finds us he's gotten into space (i.e. he's got brains) ...Ergo: ET doesn't have religion.

Nov 07, 2014
for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from and who decides what is moral? Please tell me why, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?
Your 'anything goes' assumption is a lie that all religions tell. They want to reserve the right to act immorally toward their enemies.

Jesus said that unbelievers cannot be good. This means that you do not want unbelievers as neighbors or friends, you do not want your children anywheres near them, and you do not want to do business with them. This is true whether you 'love' them as the godman insists, or not.

And as history shows us, it means that you are often more than willing to round them up and kill them all whether they are your neighbors or not.

The purpose and function of any religion can be found in what it DOES, not what it says.

Nov 07, 2014
for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from


The same place you got yours from, our culture....unless you're actually suggesting God himself came down and tutored you.

and who decides what is moral?


That's a non-sequitur. It's like asking who decides what pair of jeans is going to be in fashion next year. No one does.

Please tell me why, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?


Is the only reason you DON'T do these things because some ancient book written at the time people used to think the Earth was flat tells you not to? Or is there something inside you called empathy?

Even when I was a believer it was NOT difficult for me to understand how someone could hold morality without religion. I suspect if you're honest with yourself it's not difficult for you either.

Nov 07, 2014
it's fine to make a sweeping statement about something as fickle as CULTURE....

It's not a matter of culture but of brains. Brains gets you into space. Religion doesn't (because religion is adverse to people using their brains).

If ET finds us he's gotten into space (i.e. he's got brains) ...Ergo: ET doesn't have religion.


Sorry that doesn't follow....there are a LOT of brilliant people in our past who had religion. Go fish.

Besides I make those EXACT same arguments about other things that aliens are likely to do that are necessarily self referential, and get shouted down because they ARE self referential.

Since we're talking about brains, they might be nothing at all like ours and work very differently on a cognitive/psychological, and emotional level. Neh?

Nov 07, 2014
still a clear definition of what is good/evil in most situations
If so then what is it? Universal morality only exists with the universal perception that we are all members of a single tribe. This perception is impossible as long as religions exist which survive by reinforcing the tribal dynamic. Which is all of them.
is there something inside you called empathy?
Why is it so EASY to get people to exploit and brutalize their enemies? Why are otherwise good and decent and rational people able to act like animals?

Defense of the tribe is our primary biological imperative. Members of the tribe next door are always considered as a little less human than you. Humans were SELECTED for this perception during countless millenia of conflict: those tribes with stronger internal cohesion coupled with external animosity, would tend to prevail in conflict.

All that is needed to unleash the beast is to generate the perception that people are members of a tribe that is under threat.

Nov 07, 2014
I've posted this link a lot
http://rechten.el...RID2.pdf

-I wonder how many have actually read it?
got morals from culture
Morals are innate we were selected for them. They are altruism within the tribe in conjunction with animosity toward other tribes. This, and the defects which cause sociopathy and psychopathy, explains most all moral expression.

Nov 07, 2014
for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from

Common sense.
If you prefer a more exact answer: game theory
If you prefer an even more exact answer: an understanding of what it is everyone wants (life, safety, freedom of expression, ...) and extrapolating from there what kind of behavior maximizes these traits in a society.

Utimately ist is SELFISH to be caring and altruist to a certain degree - and strive for a better society (in a good way)...because living in a society where people care for one another benefits yourself. And out of such simple premises you can derive all the stuff the ancients have derived (don't kill, don't steal...whatever)...they just had to slather a "or god will smite you" on top for that percentage of the population to dumb to connect these simple, simple dots.

Nov 07, 2014
Sorry that doesn't follow....there are a LOT of brilliant people in our past who had religion. Go fish.

Note the "in the past". Also note: in the past people who didn't at least pretend to be religious were heavily prosecuted against (to the point of not being allowed to work).

So yeah: There were a lot of people in the past with brains that were religious - on paper. They had brains. They knew how to behave so they could get by without being molested by the religious fanatics. (Bit like how Werner von Braun had no compunction about pretending to be a Nazi so he could follow his love for building rockets)

, they might be nothing at all like ours

Let's hope. Let's hope only human brains can come up with something as unfathomably stuipid as a sky-fairy...and then dump billions of people into misery for it.

Nov 07, 2014
I always liked Greg bears depiction of aliens in 'forge of God'. A malevolent species prepares to destroy the earth and preempt competition. A benevolent species shows up to save what they can of humanity and assist them in exacting revenge.

A human asks one of the good aliens if they believe in god. "We believe in punishment" is his reply.

Nov 07, 2014
You assume Von Braun was pretending, and not in fact as enthusiastic about defeating dire enemies and defending his country as any good patriotic citizen would be. Kind of naive aa.

After all where would Von Braun and his family have been, in his mind, if the soviets had overrun them?

Nov 07, 2014
for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from and who decides what is moral? Please tell me why, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?

Excellent cue for a simple and reasonable caution civilized people should be wary of:

"Never trust anyone who has to be reminded once a week not to steal anything or kill anybody"

Nov 07, 2014
Pardon. Imprecise phrasing.

"Excellent cue for a simple and reasonable caution civilized people should keep in mind:"

Better.


Nov 07, 2014
If so then what is it?


The golden rule.

Nov 07, 2014
Note the "in the past". Also note: in the past people who didn't at least pretend to be religious were heavily prosecuted against (to the point of not being allowed to work).


Pretty thin. I think we could agree that aliens are not likely to have religion, but to say they in FACT won't is a huge stretch. Either that or just agree to disagree.

, they might be nothing at all like ours

Let's hope. Let's hope only human brains can come up with something as unfathomably stuipid as a sky-fairy...and then dump billions of people into misery for it.


Or alternatively they could be hardwired for sky-fairies and biologically unable to drop the concept no matter how advanced they get. It's impossible to be certain.

Nov 07, 2014
We will not survive as a species unless we learn to outgrow our pathetic need for a cosmic daddy, a Santa for grownups, an invisible companion to tell us we really won't die.

But we will. We will all return to the nothingness from which we came.

I was hoping something like "Keep Your God to Yourself", the Universal Commandment, would help, but our religious folk are truly nuts.

It is as if we all decided to each invent an invisible, imaginary companion, endowed it with ridiculous powers, created an entire legend around it, then killed each other over whose invented companion was the "real" one!

Stop it!

Nov 07, 2014
On the contrary, the Indic religions have always known and preached about multitude of life outside of our tiny Earth.


@ uWish
There is a rather large distinction between spiritually/religiously derived imaginary characters, and the scientifically acquired understanding that now identifies a level of certainty that some planets can, and inevitable will, evolve life.

Based on your statement, does that not also imply that leprechauns and fairies were an insightful and forward-thinking prediction of alien life by Irish peasants? Primitive creations of the imagination were not foresight, just as imagining flying monkeys would not predict modern air travel.

Re-interpretation, rationalization, and constant tweaking to fit undeniable scientific evidence continue to endure as a common practice of belief system devotees.

Nov 07, 2014


"freethinik" says: "It's like telling a child that the moon exists and the child denying it. When you show them the moon, they say it's only a reflection of the suns light."
-----------------------------------------------

Okay, show us the real corporeal god, and not some "reflection" of him.


Nov 07, 2014
This. This is the thread that had to happen on physorg. 400+ posts here we come.

Of course the Invisible SkyKing is an ET. She/He/It, or SHIT, didn't even need earth for like a whole damn week. Problem solved. Religion already dealt with the ET question way before the ancient astronaut stuff happened, which is what SkyMaster planned all along anyways.

Nov 07, 2014
or the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from and who decides what is moral? Please tell me why, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?

When non-theists hear statements like this from Christians it gives pause to worry.

- Would these people have no morals if not explicitly instructed by religion?

- Could a lack of values in some people actually require supernumerary enforcement of behavior?

- Is religion a necessary evil to prevent the depravity that would otherwise emerge in such people?

- Or, as we must hope, is this simply an acquired misconception that they are remiss to correct?

Nov 07, 2014
The correct answer is A, B, and C.

Nov 07, 2014
I'll ask again. Can any atheist please tell me, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?

We see this type of action all the time in nature, where one animal kills another to get what they want. If this is natural with one animal, and since atheists say people are only animals, then how could any atheist say this is wrong or immoral.

Nov 07, 2014
I'll ask again. Can any atheist please tell me, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?


Empathy.

I'll ask again, is the only reason you don't do it because a book tells you not to? You've never actually talked to God, so...is that it? Just an old book the only thing keeping you in check and away from serial murder?

Now which is scarier?

Nov 07, 2014
Fer shit's sake Freethinkin! I do believe you're on the money here!

I'm gonna strap on my shootin' irons and party like an animal tonite! Maybe even for a week, or a month maybe. Years even!

Then I'm gonna repent and cash in that "get out of jail free" card that us true Christians always rely on. Ooooohhhhh, yeah! Let that animal out and do the deed.

Atheists and their fuckin "have some integrity" and "just do unto others crap".

----------
Wait,... back to the article above,

We're still living in the good old "God did it" and "Satan made me" stage of self-imposed stupidity.

If ET tries to proselytize when he gets here, it'll be damn disappointing if it's the wrong god.

Just our luck, the aliens will tell us they had to get that "Jesus is our Savior" crap out of their civilization before they could advance technology to an interstellar travel stage.

Or worse, "Our warp-drive wasn't tight enough. Found God still plugging some gaps. Fixed it. Were here."


Nov 07, 2014
why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?
And Ill tell you again. No, I'll ask you a question. Why does your god tell you that you dont want neighbors who dont believe in him? And why are religionists so eager to chastise, persecute, vilify, oust and murder such neighbors?

"As Christians, we have to constantly face temptations and the attacks of the world around us. Everything we see, read, do, hear, put in our bodies, etc., affects us somehow. That's why, to maintain a close relationship with God, we have to put aside our old ways of doing things— the people we spend our time with. People are divided into only two categories, those who belong to the world and its ruler, Satan, and those who belong to God."

-Unbelievers are evil. Without secular laws to protect them, you would be killing them in droves. You always have. Your books all require it.

"... everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death" 2chron15

Nov 07, 2014
freethinking:
"for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from and who decides what is moral?"

Where do religious people get their morals from? For example, the bible says that the following are ok:
abortion
incest
prostitution
slavery

Yet most Christian religions find these immoral. So Christians pick and choose morality from the bible. How do they decide which of the bible's teachings to believe and which to throw away?

Nov 07, 2014
If ET has already been here he would have met with Leaders and told them, if the people of earth wanted to join the galactic community they would have to rid themselves of all the obsolete cultures which keep them divided and warring amongst themselves. Because the galactic community would not tolerate such behavior within their midst.

And so began the long Effort to eliminate religion from all societies of the earth. Most of northern eurasia and north america are largely free and clear. So far so good. Theyve let us land robots on mars as a perk.

Nov 07, 2014
Where do religious people get their morals from? For example, the bible says that the following are ok:
abortion...
Here is a nice collection of bible verses which shows how god will condone and require abortion and infanticide (but of course only for the spawn of unbelievers and the unclean)
http://www.procho...le.shtml

Nov 07, 2014
One does not have to be a sin-soaked, punishment-obsessed believer of religions invented by others to have morals.

Ever heard of Humanity? Civilization? It was instituted to protect us from some kinds who do not understand the concept.

Nov 07, 2014
So far the best answer I got from an atheist about why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught, is empathy.

So it is only wrong to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I am feeling empathetic. How sane and logical that is.

Nov 07, 2014
Ravi Zacharious has a better understanding of atheists than do the atheists on this board.

https://www.youtu...C1-_e7hI

Then for an in-depth discussion on the Incoherence of Atheism
https://www.youtu...TlDn4PiU


Nov 07, 2014
So far the best answer I got from an atheist about why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught, is empathy.

Mirror neurons in the brain cause empathy. They are the same reason why you "yawn" when another person is "yawning". You don't have this response because of any religious reasons. These mirror neurons also cause joy or pain.

Nov 07, 2014
gkam, who defines what is humanity who defines what is civilized. The Romans had no qualms watching people fight to the death and it was quite civilized to watch as Christians were fed to the lions.

Do I do good because, am I kind because, do I live the way I do because I fear going to hell? No. I have no fear of hell whatsoever. I live the way I do because God loved me so much that He sent His son to die because of the evil I have and unfortunately will do. It was God who called out to me and loved me first. It is out of love, not fear, that I help those around me. It is out of love that I try and live the way God wants me to live. When I fail to live the way God wants me to, I feel bad and want to change because I let down the one who has never rejected me. Fear of Hell is something I don't have. A mature Christian loses their fear of Hell and wants to do what Gods wants out of Love.

The solution for gkam and everyone else here who is afraid of Hell, is loving Jesus.

Nov 07, 2014
"Can any atheist please tell me, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?"

It seems very likely that not killing your neighbor is evolutionarily advantageous. Prehistoric humans didn't live and hunt alone, they formed groups to help find food and protect each other. You don't kill someone that you depend on. Someone who did would likely be kicked out of the group (or killed in turn) and not be able to pass on their genes. We know it can't be the Christian religion that makes the moral code since Christians reject many of the morals of the bible.

Nov 07, 2014
So far the best answer I got from an atheist about why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught, is empathy.

Most folks already have you on their ignore lists because you are a vile and disgusting individual.

Nov 07, 2014
"The solution for gkam and everyone else here who is afraid of Hell, is loving Jesus. "
-----------------------------------------------------

I have no fear of your fantasies.

Nov 08, 2014
The solution for gkam and everyone else here who is afraid of Hell, is loving Jesus.

Being good to one another is natural due to mirror neurons not a belief system. It requires a belief system to over-ride this natural instinct to be good to one another. It requires a conscious effort to ignore ones pain receptors which are triggered when observing pain in another human. Religion is a mechanism to induce the over-ride. The promises delivered by religions serve to entice people to justify the pain they feel when inflicting pain.

Nov 08, 2014
The solution for gkam and everyone else here who is afraid of Hell, is loving Jesus.

Wasting time on a non-problem? Not gonna happen.

And you really think that your pretend-fairy would be fooled by pretend-activities? What kind of a gullible idiot is your god?

If you need to make a conscious effort to be a good person (or need to be told/threatend into it by some imagined invisible friend) then you need therapy - not religion.
Because if you go for religion then it's only a veneer and can be abused by someone reinterpreteing your religion for you (....which is easy, since, believing in a religion, you're by definition not the sharpest tool in the shed)
Proof? Just about every religions conflict throughout history (from islamic terror to christian crusades and all the way back....).
If these people were good at heart they wouldn't let themselves be coopted into breaking their own fundamental commandments.

Nov 08, 2014
So far the best answer I got from an atheist about why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught, is empathy
it is typical of religionists to ignore evidence they don't like. Their religions are based on belief despite evidence. That's what faith is. The more they are able to ignore, the happier they are. Their books encourage this sort of insanity.

The bible says that killing your neighbor is ok if he threatens your faith. Aaron killed the midianite woman and her Israelite lover for just this reason, running them both though en flagrante with a spear. Obviously, love thy neighbor hadn't been invented yet.

Nov 08, 2014
Do I do good because, am I kind because, do I live the way I do because I fear going to hell? No. I have no fear of hell whatsoever. I live the way I do because God loved me so much that He sent His son to die because of the evil I have and unfortunately will do. It was God who called out to me and loved me first. It is out of love, not fear, that I help those around me. It is out of love that I try and live the way God wants me to live. When I fail to live the way God wants me to, I feel bad and want to change
-This is yet more of the insidious lie that ALL religionists tell, that people CAN'T be good unless they believe in their favorite gods.

John 3:16 promises eternity in heaven for belief. But the essential 2nd half of the equation is found in john 18-24, in that believers must also believe that anyone who doesn't believe, can't be good.

They are inseparable. Ft's disdain for the unclean is obvious in his threats of eternal damnation. Only evil gods threaten.

Nov 08, 2014
It seems very likely that not killing your neighbor is evolutionarily advantageous. Prehistoric humans didn't live and hunt alone, they formed groups to help find food and protect each other. You don't kill someone that you depend on. Someone who did would likely be kicked out of the group (or killed in turn) and not be able to pass on their genes
This is called TRIBALISM. Read the link I posted above and LEARN something.

Tribalism is a form of group selection and is the main proponent of what has made us human. Tribes with greater internal cohesion, coupled with external animosity, would be expected to prevail in combat. Defeated males would be killed and the females incorporated, a process succinctly described in the OT. This alone accelerated the growth of our brains to their current size.

Religion exploits the tribal dynamic - us vs them - to the max. It enabled them to conquer the world. It is why they will soon destroy it unless the scourge is ended.

Nov 08, 2014
for the atheists here, please enlighten me where do you get your morals from and who decides what is moral? Please tell me why, if I could get away with it, why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?
Your are quite the broken record, freeFromThinking. Again morality subsumes authority of some omnipotent gawd, evidence of which you have not provided. Therefore morality is merely more nonsense arising from intellectual midgets

Nov 08, 2014
So far the best answer I got from an atheist about why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught, is empathy.

So it is only wrong to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I am feeling empathetic. How sane and logical that is.


So far, the best evidence of robust, well-developed morality, ethics, and understanding of "good'n'evil" in your detested atheist/paganist/heathenist adversaries is your very own continued existence upon our good, green Earth, as you are instantly identifiable as an existential threat to every one of us by virtue of the fact that with each breath drawn you plot some new perfidy against anyone who is not you or as you.

Now, piss off.


Nov 09, 2014
The question posed by the article is mute since many have already encountered UFOs. Instead of going crazy, nearly all have been very interested and more concerned about the reasons why the government would deny UFO reality.

In fact, the group most likely to have its belief system shattered might be the science community since it has been the most vocal and ardent denier of UFO reality.

Nov 09, 2014
The headline of the article could be a bit more generic with something like, "Is your professional community ready to meet ET?"

Continuing to pick on religions exclusively over this issue of ET is a bit old and stale.

Nov 09, 2014
I am pentacostal bilblical literalist evangelical conservative....fyi

nope, won't bother my faith at all when ET is revealed and there is disclosure...WHY?

because there are no pleiadians, no arcturans, no greys, they are all the DEVIL in disguise...

and you people who believe they exist are deceived....Satan is a fallen prince angel, who is a liar and deceiver from the beginning...when he deceived people a thousand years ago, he showed up as a leprechaun, an elf, a sprite, a ghoul....these days he is revealing himself as any number of different types of extra-terrestrials....it is all the same reptile demon that showed up in the garden & deceived adam & eve...humans never learn...

you people that are in such intimate contact with these spirits who channel messages from the spirit world have become prophets and prophetesses of satan. wake up! when you die, these demons will haul you off screaming into hell.

Nov 09, 2014
Ghost, Abrahamic religions are man-centric. It doesn't even admit leeway for early man such as neanderthals. Aliens would be considered as animals despite the likelihood they could blow up Earth with one twitch of their mandibles. Abrahamic religions need to be abolished or the aliens might do it for us, seeing how poorly it reflects upon the species as a whole

Nov 10, 2014
why it is wrong for me to kill my neighbor to get what I want?

Because your neighbour could be me. So anyone who kills is a threat to me, and everyone else. Literally "a danger to society". Religion has nothing to do with it.

On a lighter note, doing good science requires peace :-)

But I find this question rather rich coming from people who extol the flood -the genocide of the human race- as a Praiseworthy Thing. Are you sure you have searched your heart hard enough?

Nov 10, 2014
This is called TRIBALISM

Which also applies to nationalism/patriotism. It's not just religion that creates separate "tribes". If you don't believe in a higher power, cool, but don't pin everything bad that happens on religion. It's a scapegoat for some of humanities greater follies. People commit the actions, regardless of religion.

On a lighter note, doing good science requires peace :-)

Really? I thought there was some pretty impressive science done during WWI and WWII.

Nov 10, 2014
pretty impressive science done during WWI and WWII

Point taken! But had WWII continued on for another 2 years we would have had all-out global nuclear war. I shudder to think of trying to survive WW3, let alone do anything constructive...

Nov 10, 2014
Koch says... morality is merely more nonsense arising from intellectual midgets

Caliban says ... So far, the best evidence of robust, well-developed morality, ethics, and understanding of "good'n'evil" in your detested atheist/paganist/heathenist adversaries is your very own continued existence upon our good, green Earth,

Like I said, Atheists cannot answer why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught. Indeed they get extremely hostile when asked.

This all goes to prove the point that a psychopathic atheist lives an atheistic life consistently and logically.

If ET came to this world and saw that it was run by Atheists, they would conclude it would be best to destroy this world to stop the psychopaths from spreading into the universe.

Nov 10, 2014
Like I said, Atheists cannot answer why it is wrong or immoral to kill my neighbor to get what I want if I could do so without getting caught. Indeed they get extremely hostile when asked.
You seem to be very fixated on this question, freeOfThinking, notwithstanding the dozens of articles about game theory illustrating that win-win scenarios outdo your bleak zero-sum philistine bible logic. I hope your neighbors know what thoughts linger in that christopathic brain it's quite creepy to venture there are people walking freely with only some fairy tale pages stopping them from starting a town massacre

Nov 10, 2014
Atheists cannot answer why it is wrong or immoral to kill

I did in my previous post! But never mind, believers can't answer that question either:

"Atheists Are 0.07% of the Federal Prison Population. (...) That's a tricky one for the self-proclaimed righteous ones, because godlessness supposedly leads to sinful behavior. But the facts are the facts."

http://www.altern...s-prison


Nov 10, 2014
Game theory still is not an answer why it is morally wrong to kill your neighbor for gain if you could get away with it.

Stalin was a psychopathic atheist who played the game theory, death toll 15 million.
Mao was a psychopathic atheist who played the game theory, death toll 49-78 Million
Pol Pot was a psychopathic atheist who played the game theory, death toll 1.7 Million
Kim II Sung was a psychopathic atheist who believed in game theory. death toll 1.6 million

I can go on with psychopathic atheist leaders who believed in game theory, and at least they are consistent in their atheistic belief and killed their neighbor for gain. So the question I give again, because no atheist on this board has answered it, why is it morally wrong to murder my neighbor for gain f I can get away with it? Your great Atheist leaders Stalin and Mao and many others had no issues with it.

Nov 10, 2014
Freethinking seems like one of those pay for your Jesus types, giving a tithe and going to church and saying the right things. These Christians think simple belief is enough, yet they forget the fact that the Jesus was sent here to show us the best of humanity. The goal of every Christian should be to emulate his perfection as much as possible. Don't forget, WWJD

Atheists understand what it means to be a good human through their families and communities. Morality can be learned in many ways, the entertainment industry is also a big one. What kind of morals do you think Full House taught? That killing your neighbour was an honest thing to do? Don't be an ass.

It doesn't take a god to be a good person, but without people would there be a god?

Nov 10, 2014
"why is it morally wrong to murder my neighbor for gain f I can get away with it?"

Because society says it is. And as society changes, so do morals (as the bible indicates). You still haven't said where christian types get their morals. It can't be from the bible since all christians I'm aware of don't agree with biblical morals. Certainly when I went to church no one was saying that prostitution or slavery or abortion or incest was ok (but it's been a while so maybe they've gone back to those good old time morals ;).

Nov 10, 2014
Game theory still is not an answer why it is morally wrong to kill your neighbor for gain if you could get away with it.

Stalin was a psychopathic atheist who played the game theory, death toll 15 million.
Mao was a psychopathic atheist who played the game theory, death toll 49-78 Million
Pol Pot was a psychopathic atheist who played the game theory, death toll 1.7 Million
Kim II Sung was a psychopathic atheist who believed in game theory. death toll 1.6 million
I didn't know these people were mathematicians. But I do know that three of four were given catholic christian educations which prepared them for communism. The other is a monarchist. Christianity justifies communism, racism and slavery. Moreover game theory is a theory like electrical theory. It doesn't need your belief or worship nor does it care if your neighbors steal your appliances and you move into a cave

Nov 11, 2014
what's with associating us with communist bogeymen when we clearly are nothing like them at all?

"why is it morally wrong to murder my neighbor for gain f I can get away with it?"

Because your neighbour might ask the same question about murdering you? Because this line of thinking would be the end of everything we've built over the centuries? Because we all want our children to live long and prosper and that is simply not possible in violent societies?

What else do I need to say to convince you I would gladly fight against dictatorship?

For the record:

- There are madmen who would be kings in every epoch in every country

- It's the people who allow them to rise to power. These people, in countries like Russia and China were religious before and after - it is simply not part of the equation.

- In today's world, the least religious countries are consistently the most peaceful.

contd

Nov 11, 2014
Go to this page and sort by lowest rate of murders:

http://en.wikiped...ide_rate

Then go to this page and sort by lowest rate of religious belief:

http://en.wikiped..._country

Any way you compare the tables, the result is clear: more religion correlates to more killing.

Nov 11, 2014
Game theory still is not an answer why it is morally wrong to kill your neighbor for gain if you could get away with it.

Religion doesn't answer this question either. Why wouldn't a religious person act immorally if they thought they would be forgiven? It all comes down to brain chemistry. This is why animals can live in social groups as well. Religion doesn't explain why the rules of social behavior are universal throughout various social species. Alternations in brain chemistry can explain psychopaths though.

Nov 11, 2014
why is it morally wrong to murder my neighbor for gain f I can get away with it

Pretty simple:
1) You don't know if it will be found out eventually. Even if it gets found out years later (and you still aren't pegged as the murderer) you will then have nudged society into a direction where people might think "Oh...killing works!".
I.e. from then on you will live in a perpetual state of fear. (if not before: since YOU think killing is OK you must assume that at least some others will think likewise. Paranoia is not a viable basis for a society)
2) It changes your mindset to asocial behavior ("I have killed and gotten away with it - what else can I get away with?"). Again: not a viable basis for a society (or even partnership)

It's simple game theory: Society benefits you - hence don't do things to destroy society.

Note that morals/ethics are only sensibly defineable within societies. If we were all predatory loners these would be meaningless.

Nov 11, 2014
1) You don't know if it will be found out eventually. Even if it gets found out years later (and you still aren't pegged as the murderer) you will then have nudged society into a direction where people might think "Oh...killing works!".

For an atheists why do they care about society? It came from nothing and will become nothing. The only reality is the here and now for tomorrow you maybe dead. A pride of lions works in just the same way no issues with killing former prides cubs.

2) It changes your mindset to asocial behavior ("I have killed and gotten away with it - what else can I get away with?"). Again: not a viable basis for a society (or even partnership)

Logical and consistent Atheist simple game theory: Society benefits you - so while it is here I should take advantage of it for my pleasure and take all that I can, for tomorrow it or I may not be here.

Nov 11, 2014
Information on the atheists in jail.

The numbers reported are only of the federal prisoners, about 218,000 people, not of all prisons in America, and they only cover a self-reported religious affiliation or lack thereof by the inmates themselves. The data showed 0.07% of the inmates were atheists, 28.7% Protestants, 24% Catholics, 5.5% Muslims, and 3.1% American Indians. In addition 3% of the inmates listed "other" as religious affiliation, and 3.44% were "unknown". 17% of the inmates reported no religious preference.

If you are a prisoner, it makes sense not to make waves and join with a group (game theory) to get benefits of that group. Also Saying you have no religious preference is most likely a safe way of saying, I'm an atheist and smart enough not to stick out like a sore thumb.

Nov 11, 2014
If an atheists want a real response to their incoherent viewpoint. Ravi Zacharious gives a good response here.

https://www.youtu...;index=5

Lies can be spoken in just a few lines, truth is much more expansive.

Nov 11, 2014
Your arguments are mindless, your evidence is unconvincing, and you can't ever concede you're wrong... Far from thinking free.

Nov 11, 2014
freethinking for Progressives is believe everything Progressive without questioning Progressiveness.

Nov 11, 2014
"For an atheists why do they care about society?"

I don't know - maybe because we like to live in a pleasant society? Maybe one in which we're not likely to be killed? And one in which we can expect our offspring to live and prosper and be safe. You know, for someone calling themselves "freethinking" you don't seem very capable of thinking for yourself.

And you keep dodging the question about where you think (there's that word again ;) morals come from. You don't get them from the bible (unless you believe that prostitution, incest, slavery are ok - in which case maybe you have other problems).

Nov 11, 2014
Honestly, I don't know what a progressive is, and my understanding of the terms conservative and liberal are limited too. I know that one tends to be democratic and the other republican, but beyond that I don't give a shit. Politics are a scourge, completely unnecessary for a functioning democracy yet it still thrives. Kinda sounds like a virus...

You see, politics are just another manifestation of Otto's favorite tribalism argument. It's a milder form of divide and conquer; take the most polarizing topics and choose sides to pit people against one another, and you have politics. It's a great method of distracting us from the butt hurt we are constantly taking.

I believe what I want, no tribe trumps any other to me. There is wisdom in everything if you can be objective and think freely.

Nov 11, 2014
zz I agree that atheists can be moral and nice people. Problem is Atheists are moral and nice in spite of their beliefs not because of them. They are not consistently and logically following their beliefs.

It's very similar to Muslims. Most Muslims are very nice and moral people. Problem is they are moral and nice in spite of the literal teaching of the Koran. If they are consistently and logically following Mohammad's teaching, they would be doing what ISIL is doing.

I'll even agree that Christians can be very immoral and mean. However they do this in-spite of the literal teaching of the Bible. They are immoral and mean contrary to the moral and logical teaching of Jesus.

Nov 11, 2014
I'll even agree that Christians can be very immoral and mean. However they do this in-spite of the literal teaching of the Bible. They are immoral and mean contrary to the moral and logical teaching of Jesus.

You mean Jesus who flipped over tables and beat people with a whip? That did happen. The bible is full of behavior which can be considered immoral but religious people consider it justified because of their religion.

Nov 11, 2014
The problem, freethinking, is that I simply don't understand how I can believe you when you say you get your morals from the bible.

Either you do you - and believe, for example, that killing your rebellious son is moral, or you pick and choose which means you don't.

Could you clarify how picking and choosing from the Bible is not the slippery slope of convenience I think it is?

Nov 11, 2014
"I'll even agree that Christians can be very immoral and mean. However they do this in-spite of the literal teaching of the Bible."

This is the same bible that says that prostitution, incest, slavery, and abortion are OK? Unless you agree with the bible that these are OK, then you did not get your morals from the bible. Your religion picked and chose the morals from the bible that it agreed with and threw away the others. How do religions choose which parts of the bible to obey and which parts to throw out? Clearly there must be a higher authority on morals than God - certainly the Christian religions think so.

Nov 12, 2014
"For an atheists why do they care about society?

because society benefits each and every one of us. It provides a safety net (in case of sickness). It provides a pool of mating partners. It reduces stress - as you don't need to take care of everything yourself. If you have everything done by specialised people for everyone then the cumulative effort is much lower than if everyone has to do everything him/herself. Think about how much spare time you would have if you'd have to hunt for food and build your own shelter as well as protect you from anything.

Living in a society just makes sense.

Most Muslims are very nice and moral people. Problem is they are moral and nice in spite of the literal teaching of the Koran.

Same goes for christians. Ever read the Bible? There's some morally nasty shit in there you're allowed/supposed to do. And judging by the break from old testament to new - your god isn't exactly a paragon of consistency (much less logic)

Nov 12, 2014
I agree that atheists can be moral and nice people. Problem is Atheists are moral and nice in spite of their beliefs not because of them. They are not consistently and logically following their beliefs.

I'll even agree that Christians can be very immoral and mean. However they do this in-spite of the literal teaching of the Bible. They are immoral and mean contrary to the moral and logical teaching of Jesus.


LOL thanks for clarifying. I must be a Christian without knowing it, because I haven't ever had the urge to rape my goldfish, eat my neighbours cat or any other of that socially unacceptable stuff.

BTW - Exactly where is it stated that being moral and nice is against the atheist 'rules'. I never got the memo

Nov 12, 2014
However they do this in-spite of the literal teaching of the Bible.

Isn't it weird that some people can understand stuff by themselves - instead of having to be taught?
Much worse: if you have to resort to the LITERAL meaning you invariably fail to grasp what was actually intended.

never got the memo

Geez, man, don't skip all the meetings. How are we ever gonna overthrow the world.

where is it stated that being moral and nice is against the atheist 'rules'.

Well, since he would obviously be out raping and murdering (if he wasn't so afraid of his god) he assumes we all must be equally deranged. Religion is a poor substitute for therapy.

Nov 12, 2014
The religion of Statism is not likely ready. They will at once be made impotent.

Nov 12, 2014
Politics are a scourge, completely unnecessary for a functioning democracy yet it still thrives.

What is a 'functioning democracy'?
How does it function? Persuasion? Force?
I can understand why the term 'progressive' is difficult to understand because it is a self-described, fraudulent term socialist use to sell their coercive practices to the ignorant and stupid. Just as 'gay' has been used by homosexuals to describe their lifestyle. (Are they trying to convince themselves they are happy or others?)

Could you clarify how picking and choosing from the Bible is not the slippery slope of convenience I think it is?


Read it, study it, and understand it in its entirety and one can't pick and choose.

Nov 12, 2014
Atheists are moral and nice in spite of their beliefs not because of them. They are not consistently and logically following their beliefs
Xians believe what jesus tells them - that unbelievers cannot be good. This is reflected in your bigoted notions about atheists having immoral beliefs.

The overwhelming majority of inmates are religious and were raised in religious families. Obviously religion has no effect on whether people act morally or not. In fact it encourages believers to victimize heathens and infidels.
Most Muslims are very nice and moral people. Problem is they are moral and nice in spite of the literal teaching of the Koran. If they are consistently and logically following Mohammad's teaching, they would be doing what ISIL is doing
If you knew anything about the Koran you would know that it says exactly the same things as the bible. The Lords Resistance Army, the Lebanese Christian militia, the Serbian militias, The IRA, and the KKK all know this.

Nov 12, 2014
I guess the real question is what prevents you from killing your neighbor as a Christian. The book is replete with examples of murder, genocide, slavery, assault, polygamy (not judging that one, but most Christians do)....

Did God change his mind in the new testament? Did he make a mistake in the old? Sounds someone with unlimited authority and zero accountability/responsibility. An omnipotent bull in a china closet rampaging across the middle east thousands of years ago.

How do you decide based on that contradictory morass of ignorant (proper term, not derogatory in this case) writings when to beat a slave, kill a master, slaughter children, commit genocide, assault, etc etc? Where's the appendix with all the qualifiers?

Nov 12, 2014
Jesus taught a most heinous and foul form of violence - martyrdom. For what is a revolution without martyrs? Jesus rode into the holy city on its holiest of days, marched up to the high priests and declared that he was not only their king but their GOD. 'Kill me!' He demanded in effect.

Millions of xians have been presenting themselves and their families for killing in similar fashion for 2 millenia. The Romans for instance were only too happy to accomodate them, culling all those whose beliefs were at odds with the planned new state religion. Tailoring the congregation. How convenient.

Nov 12, 2014
How do you decide based on that contradictory morass of ignorant (proper term, not derogatory in this case) writings when to beat a slave, kill a master, slaughter children, commit genocide, assault, etc etc? Where's the appendix with all the qualifiers?


If you are looking to justify those acts, then one can look into the minutia of the 'law', twist meanings and find an excuse to murder (abort babies).
But when the laws are simple, like "don't murder" or "don't steal" or "love your neighbor as you love yourself", then you will have a more difficult time justifying your actions.

Nov 12, 2014
If you are looking to justify those acts, then one can look into the minutia of the 'law', twist meanings and find an excuse to murder (abort babies).


I'm not asking you if philosophically or theoretically two acts of idiocy equal benevolence. You know they don't and I know they don't...so don't insult my intelligence again by saying something so blatantly stupid, off topic, and irrelevant to my question. Thanks.

But when the laws are simple, like "don't murder" or "don't steal" or "love your neighbor as you love yourself", then you will have a more difficult time justifying your actions.


Well then my original question still stands, because the old testament tells you to pillage away...now which one is correct and why? Why was god such as screwed up psychopath worse than Stalin, Mao, and Hitler then and suddenly turned a bit more mellow and "hippyish"? Did he get some ethereal weed? Bipolar? Multiple personality disorder? Or was he just plain WRONG?

Nov 12, 2014
If you are looking to justify those acts, then one can look into the minutia of the 'law', twist meanings and find an excuse to murder (abort babies).
But when the laws are simple, like "don't murder" or "don't steal" or "love your neighbor as you love yourself", then you will have a more difficult time justifying your actions.
But what about a book that makes those grand pronouncements and then proceeds to condone violating each and every one of them elsewhere in its pages?

The bible condones and requires adherents to break every one of the commandments except of course 'no other gods before me' (the most important). And yes it condones and requires abortion and infanticide.

Whether you know this or not is immaterial to all those believers who do and who have dutifully acted upon them.

The book even lies about where they come from, having been copied from Sumerian and Egyptian texts.

Nov 12, 2014
except of course 'no other gods before me'


depends on how you look at it... the whole Jesus/God vs. Jesus/Prophet thing had to go to committee several times before they could work around that one. All the re-writes caused quite a bit of consternation among the various factions at the time.

Nov 12, 2014
because the old testament tells you to pillage away...now which one is correct and why?

It does?
Again, you can read various parts, picking and choosing what you want to suit your desires.
Or you can stick with the basics like 'don't murder'. But that gets in the way if you want to murder babies.

Nov 12, 2014
Interesting how no one has a comment about how the religion of statism would respond to ET.
It would seem to be in the state's interest to deny ET because the state would be rendered impotent by an ET.

Nov 12, 2014
It does?


How about you read it and get back with me...

Again, you can read various parts, picking and choosing what you want to suit your desires.


You can? Well then since it DOES say you can assault people you hold in slavery without punishment the question is...what's stopping you Christians?

Round up some slaves and kick away...

Nov 12, 2014
If so many of you are so ignorant of the Bible, go to church, find a Bible study, a pastor, a priest and ask your questions.
Of course you won't because you really don't want to know.
Because the bottom line will essentially be found in the the 10 commandments which you don't want to adhere to.

I see no follower of statism cares to address their faith's response to ET.

Nov 12, 2014
The movie "Interstellar" just postulated God is us, from the future.

CS Lewis made a similar observation that God is outside time and space.

The fundamental nature of God is not inconsistent with modern physics, or our limited understanding of the universe.

How do the anti-God folks here feel about the idea humans ARE ETs seeded by a higher life form?
There have certainly been many SF movies and books that postulate the concept.

Nov 12, 2014
Murder babies...

"Even more shocking, we find that God actually mandates abortion when the fetus is a product of adultery (Numbers 5). A jealous and suspicious husband should bring his wife to the local priest, who forces the woman to drink a poisonous "water of bitterness" to bring on God's "curse". If she experiences "bitter pain," if her "belly swells" and her "thigh rots," she fails the test and becomes an outcast. Virtually all Biblical scholars agree that this voodoo ritual and its cloaked euphemisms refer to an induced (not to mention unsafe) abortion. The word "thigh" in the Old Testament usually means genitals, but in this case, it refers to the uterus and its contents. One alternate Bible translation reads, "She will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb." (New International Version)

Nov 12, 2014
Murder babies...

"'Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go forth in the midst of Egypt and all the first-born in the land of Egypt shall die; from the first-born of Pharaoh who sits upon his throne, even to the first-born of the maidservant who is behind the mill; and all the first-born of the cattle.'" (Exodus 11:4-5)

Murder babies...

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:17-18)

Murder babies...

"...go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:3)

Murder babies...

"O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" (Psalms 137:8)

-I guess heathen babies dont count do they ryggy?

Nov 12, 2014
The fundamental nature of God is not inconsistent with modern physics
The deist god is not incompatible with anything because philos designed it that way.

But the theist god of your book who described things we know didnt happen and people we know didnt exist, and who cares about what we eat and what we wear and who we sleep with and in what position, and whether we mutilate our childrens genitals or not... science has thoroughly disproven THAT god and all others like him.

I know you dont think theres a difference and I know you dont care. What I DO think is that people like you are the result of dozens of gens of culling of people who could not accept the irrational nonsense written in the books.

We see how quickly animal features and behavior can be changed through breeding. This process is described succinctly in the bible - how the israelites are continuously tempted and the noncompliant culled.

Selective insanity can certainly be produced in this manner.

Nov 12, 2014
so ignorant of the Bible... you really don't want to know
Ryggy claims the people here are ignorant of the bible. Did you ever read the verses above ryggy? Theyre in your book you know. Along with those condoning slavery and requiring the stoning of wayward women and insolent children.

How about these?

4 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

"'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

"21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."matt10

-Stiff price - all that carnage and ruination for salvation? Millions of butchered martyrs would agree.

Nov 12, 2014
If so many of you are so ignorant of the Bible, go to church, find a Bible study, a pastor, a priest and ask your questions.


I did, for 38 years. No one was able to give a logically consistent explaination to me when I was a devout Christian as to why god changed his mind on generally being a psychotic murdering jerk to being a semi tolerable moralizing and judgmental mealy mouthed hippy.

Of course you won't because you really don't want to know.


Yeah, but at least one of us didn't and used to. No one can explain it. You sure as hell haven't...

Because the bottom line will essentially be found in the the 10 commandments which you don't want to adhere to.


LOL, now who's picking and choosing passages. Is that all the bible is? Just ten rules? Mmmmmkay.

I see no follower of statism cares to address their faith's response to ET.


Is your perceived failure on their part an excuse to not seriously evaluate your own philosophical BS?

Nov 12, 2014
If so many of you are so ignorant of the Bible, go to church, find a Bible study, a pastor, a priest and ask your questions.
Of course you won't because you really don't want to know.
Because the bottom line will essentially be found in the the 10 commandments which you don't want to adhere to.

You wish to go back to the old testament now for your morals? What about the teachings of Jesus? Should somebody flip over your tables and beat you with a whip for not sharing the same religious ideals as Jesus?

Nov 12, 2014
The fundamental nature of God is not inconsistent with modern physics, or our limited understanding of the universe.

So our understanding of the gods we once worshiped has evolved as we gain a greater understanding of the universe. You can't explain why some gods must be worshiped while some ignored.

Nov 12, 2014
Ryggy claims the people here are ignorant of the bible.

No, I don't.
Satan knows the Bible by heart.
There are Muslim children that have memorized the Koran and recite it verbatim.

As CS Lewis discusses in Mere Christianity, how does God know all for all time? God is outside of time. SF books, movies and shows that postulate higher beings outside of time are not ridiculed by the anti-God folks are they?

Sounds like Auto wants to use the Bible to justify murdering babies. Funny how 'pro-choice' baby murderers don't use the Bible to support their position.
Many religious folks, Catholics and Protestants oppose murdering babies and have somehow supported their position with the Bible.
Quakers used the Bible to support their anti-slavery position.
How many of you Bible experts have read the Bible books in the original language?

Nov 12, 2014
Still no comment about how the statists will respond to ET.
All you 'expert' 'progressives' who assert you know how everyone should live will suddenly be shown you know nothing.
How will they respond?

Nov 12, 2014
Like the architect of Obamacare who said the voters were too stupid to know the details of Obamacare and must be lied to, those here attacking religion are insulting the millions who have read and studied their faiths and keep their faith.
I know some have said they don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

It it interesting no one here has addressed faith. I brought it up many posts ago as it is the central theme of the Bible. But all you expert atheists want to do is pick apart the Bible.
After all, you claim to have faith in science.

Nov 12, 2014
What is a 'functioning democracy'?

The one that Washington tried to start, with no parties. There should be no "politicians", only representatives. The government serves the people, and many people in power forget that. One that at least provides the basic necessities. The Romans never made their citizens pay for water.

You wish to go back to the old testament now for your morals? What about the teachings of Jesus? Should somebody flip over your tables and beat you with a whip for not sharing the same religious ideals as Jesus?

Come on, you know that's not the reason Jesus went ape shit, plus he was a Jew. Fake believers were desecrating his Father's home, I'm sure most people would have a similar reaction. The only thing that should matter to any Christian is the New Testament, Jesus told us what we need to know out of that old stuff.

Nov 12, 2014
Come on, you know that's not the reason Jesus went ape shit, plus he was a Jew. Fake believers were desecrating his Father's home, I'm sure most people would have a similar reaction. The only thing that should matter to any Christian is the New Testament, Jesus told us what we need to know out of that old stuff.

Most people would behave immorally to defend their religious ideals. The "Father's home" didn't appear out of nowhere, but was built by men. Those men, or those who paid them should have the final say over what happens in the building they created.

Nov 12, 2014
The one that Washington tried to start, with no parties.

It wasn't a democracy. It is supposed to be republic and there were parties, even before the Constitution was written and approved.

One that at least provides the basic necessities.

Define 'basic'. Today it would include a car, a tv, a cell phone, cable, .....
Rome provided the 'basic' necessities of bread and circuses and the people were never satisfied.
The purpose of the govt is to protect private property from state plunder and from plunder from your neighbor.

Nov 12, 2014
"It wasn't a democracy. It is supposed to be republic and there were parties, even before the Constitution was written and approved."

@ryggy has once again demonstrated his gross ignorance. Of course it is to be expected, coming from him.

Nov 12, 2014
wants to use the Bible to justify murdering babies

It's the opposite, silly. He says the bible justifies it -in fact it lays it down as the law- and therefore should be rejected as a moral compass. And based on *the facts of what is written in it*, he's right.
Many religious folks oppose murdering babies

That is correct and is commendable. But it also demonstrates *the faithful themselves* take the bible's law with a grain of salt. "Do as I say, not as I do". No thanks.

We all agree the 10 commandments are important -we all abhor killing and stealing. But the rest is not. Just because we got democracy from the Greek doesn't mean we should keep their entire system of beliefs (e.g. slavery and boy love) does it?

As for your political bitterness, it's completely off-topic. You think there are no atheist conservatives? Would you seriously say the Pope is not politically a socialist (in the European definition anyway)?

Nov 12, 2014
All I hear is ninnies yammering. Your irrelevant make-believe religions will definitely not be ready, but it will happen regardless. To top it all off I will enrage you closed-minded fools with my expansive inter-galactic inter-species adult entertainment site. It will be out of this world.

Nov 12, 2014
A lot of crap here as usual when it came to religion. Forget all that. You only need to count how many posts each religion's followers are there to know how ready their spiritual guidance is relevant and ready for a paradigm change. The louder they foam at the mouth , the less ready they are for the change. People who are intrinsically prepared do not cry, yell, or go on hysterics to prove their points. What a bunch of losers, the followers of lost causes, without knowing it!

Nov 13, 2014
The purpose of the govt is to protect private property from state plunder and from plunder from your neighbor.

And what is the purpose of religion. According to the numerous posts here, and evidence provided, it remains lacking in the formation of a moral compass for a society. If anything religion provides a convenient scapegoat for ignoring ones conscience. Why would a person consider their actions immoral if the gods approve?

Nov 13, 2014
It wasn't a democracy. It is supposed to be republic and there were parties

You show your basic lack of understanding again. A republic is a democracy of localized representatives, it's saddening that there's people out there that don't understand this. When the republic fell in Star Wars, Padme claims "so this is how democracy dies". Use some Common Sense fool, it's an enlightening thing.

Define 'basic'. Today it would include a car, a tv, a cell phone, cable,

Again, wrong. Would you die without a car? I'm sure you would if you didn't have your cellphone, but that's a different topic.

Basic are the things required to live a comfortable life: water, heat, and food (I'm not talking about the terrible food stamp program). These are things that people shouldn't have to worry about.

And what is the purpose of religion

To provide a community with a safe haven for like minded people to help deal with life's intricacies.

Nov 13, 2014
And what is the purpose of religion

It's a multi-tier approach

First tier: people who understand the benefits of a society. Such people are capable of forming a commune that works

Second tier: People that have only a shaky grasp of what society is for but are basically nasty. These people need leadership and punishment (Governments, police, jails, .. ) for their type of society to work (Currently all nation son Earth fall under this heading)

Third tier: Those that don't get it at all and can'tz cope wiuth reality. They need something ireal to keep them from going ape-shit. Voila: religion.

(Fourth tier: murderers, rapists, etc. )

Nov 13, 2014
Most people would behave immorally to defend their religious ideals. The "Father's home" didn't appear out of nowhere, but was built by men. Those men, or those who paid them should have the final say over what happens in the building they created.


How was he acting immorally? He yelled and beat up some people. Is it immoral when police bust up an unlawful assembly?

It was built by men, but it wasn't built for men. They forgot this, and Jesus reminded them. Plus I'm sure it was built well before any of those men were born, so technically your argument is null.

Nov 13, 2014
The only thing that matters to xians is the new testament
Good. So we can forget about those 10 commandments, 3 of which require belief in the OT god before the rest will work, and also jesus' pedigree which is traced through many people which we now know never existed.

His pedigree is obviously the many virgin-born, crucified, and raised-from-the-dead godmen he was copied from anyway
ryggys faith
The strength of Ryggys faith is measured in the degree to which he is able to ignore evidence. I'd say Ryggys faith is formidable indeed, much like the trained lassa apso.
you want to know the bible, ask a priest
Hey there's an idea - ask a salesman if his product is any good. Listen to the spiel which has been refined over centuries.

Or READ the book and UNDERSTAND for yourself what it SAYS.

Nov 13, 2014
we all agree that the 10 commandments are important
NO we do NOT. They take universally-accepted tribal law and preface it with the caveat that you must believe in the hebrew god or they won't WORK.

And this edict is repeated throughout the bible. Jesus said in john3:18-24 that unbelievers are evil.

The 10 commandments were stolen from the Egyptian book of the dead and the code of hammurabi. They were tailored to apply to the Hebrew tribe only. Religions since have used them to reinforce their status as gods chosen people.

Without the first 3 they are still inadequate. Secular law has been developed over centuries to address inequality and mete universal justice, ideals which are anathema to the ethics of all religions.

Nov 13, 2014
murdering babies
The surviving religions all figured out how to increase their survival potential by maximizing growth. To this end they forced women to begin bearing children as early as possible ('children of our youth') and to continue to do so until it killed them.

This process continues unabated outside western countries. As a result we are flooded with refugees fleeing starvation and endemic violence.

If these religions didn't exist, women would be free to determine how many children they wished to bear, and the west would be able to educate them on how to do this. There would be plenty of room and resources for everybody, and thus little need for abortion.

And so we can lay the blame for the ONE BILLION ABORTIONS which have taken place over the last century, squarely on the shoulders of the guilty parties - the religions who CAUSE overgrowth, and suffering, and want, in their selfish quest to dominate.

Nov 13, 2014
A republic is a democracy of localized representatives,

The authors of the US Constitution were opposed to democracy. Which is why they created a federal republic. In that federal republic, voters could only directly elect one representative to Congress. State legislatures would elect two senators. (State legislatures were elected by state voters, of course.) The president was elected by the electors from each state and each state had the option of choosing those electors.

Would you die without a car?

Some people might.
water, heat, and food

What are they going to heat? What kind of food?
Why should the state plunder the wealth from those who work to pay for those who won't?

Nov 13, 2014
Most people would behave immorally to defend their religious ideals. The "Father's home" didn't appear out of nowhere, but was built by men. Those men, or those who paid them should have the final say over what happens in the building they created.


How was he acting immorally? He yelled and beat up some people. Is it immoral when police bust up an unlawful assembly?

It was built by men, but it wasn't built for men. They forgot this, and Jesus reminded them. Plus I'm sure it was built well before any of those men were born, so technically your argument is null.

"I say the people must learn of our peaceful ways....by force." - Bender Bending Rodríguez
Technically, somebody pays for the maintenance on buildings, otherwise they degrade. Somebody is responsible and in charge, and they are the ones who should have final say. Why is it considered acceptable to condone the violence of the few when it is done in the name of a god?

Nov 13, 2014
It's a multi-tier approach


Sound almost like the alpha, beta and gammas from Brave New World. But you added a delta.

Not surprising coming from a German, and a socialist.

Nov 13, 2014
The authors of the US Constitution were opposed to democracy

You sir are an idiot. Per wiki:
"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally – either directly or, through elected representatives, indirectly – in the proposal, development and establishment of the laws by which their society is run"
That is what you just described.

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Why should the state plunder the wealth from those who work to pay for those who won't?

Now it's getting clearer, your republican is showing. How do you know people WON'T work? What if they're injured, or old, or just had a kid, or handicapped, or can't find a job? We already have programs for this, we just needs ones that aren't so corrupt and convoluted. A nation is only as good as it's weakest citizens, so it's in the best interest of those who would be "plundered" to help their fellow people.

Nov 13, 2014
How do you know people WON'T work?

", I sent four researchers around the area. They quickly found 40 job openings. Twenty-four were entry-level positions. One restaurant owner told me he would hire 12 people if workers would just apply."
""First I went to the Manhattan Jobs Center and asked, "Can I get help finding a job?" They told me they don't do that. 'We sign people up for food stamps.' I tried another jobs center. They told me to enroll for unemployment benefits.""
"Our government helps you apply for handouts immediately, but forces you through a maze if you want to work."
http://reason.com...-to-work

Nov 13, 2014
"Our Founders' greatest fear that pure democracy would inevitably destroy itself is being played out in two distinct dramas, both headed toward the same ending.

Detroit's bankruptcy bears witness to destruction by one-party rule. Decades of unchecked corruption and incompetent governance have come to a head, as the accumulated debts of a government willing to buy votes from the non-productive at the expense of the productive fall upon a dwindling populace too poor, dependent, or stubborn to flee."
http://www.forbes...ing-out/

"Benjamin Franklin defined democracy as "two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

So why did they reject Democracy? Because it is inherently flawed with the "share the wealth" philosophy, which only works as long as there is someone else's money to share."
http://tenthamend...nter.com

Nov 13, 2014
"Fraser Tyler, author of The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic authored more than 200 years ago said it best. "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
"The Founders created a Republic, not a Democracy. The Constitution, as designed, is the mechanism to ensure we stay a Republic. We must demand from our leaders a strict adherence to that document in order to preserve our liberty, and that of future generations."
http://tenthamend...mocracy/

Nov 13, 2014
"Where does the money come from for all the "good" that government does? Answer, out of someone else's pocket. If it is with his consent it is a form of charity. If forced, a form of tyranny. The more and the longer given, the more entitled the receiver becomes until he is quite willing to take to the streets and demand more of other people's money, fully satisfied that he has every right to it. This works until those who have money are destroyed as a class and everyone is equally poor. The result is a diminished standard of living for everyone, as was the case under 20th Century communism.

A Democracy gives us the principles of majority rules and frequent elections with options, but little more. It does not protect us from the government's redistribution of wealth philosophy, which entitles the less productive to get something for nothing."
http://tenthamend...mocracy/

Nov 13, 2014
"Limited government is also a major aspect of a Republic. The government is handcuffed from dominating our lives. "
http://tenthamend...mocracy/

This is why the AGWites, 'progressives', 'liberals', socialists hate the US Republic.
The law is designed to prevent them from controlling our lives. For over 100 years, the 'progressives' have been subverting the Constitutions to control our lives.

Recently in a MA city, a 'progressive' health board is trying to ban the sale of tobacco. Fortunately, over 400 residents of the small town turned out to protest and the board shut the meeting down early in fear.
Bloomberg tried to ban sugar. EPA is trying to ban CO2.
Tyranny of the majority, democracy, leads to tyranny.

Nov 13, 2014
So ryg, what are the differences between a democracy and a republic then? In your numerous quote farmed posts, it does nothing to establish what's actually different. Either way, in our government we choose the lesser of two evils, something that cannot be avoided.

Nov 13, 2014
Tyranny of the majority


As opposed to your preferred system, tyranny of the minority? That's even worse!

Nov 13, 2014
t does nothing to establish what's actually different

You won't understand.

As opposed to your preferred system,

Tyranny of the majority leads to tyranny of the minority.
I prefer NO tyranny. A government with limited power.

Nov 13, 2014
Tyranny of the majority


As opposed to your preferred system, tyranny of the minority? That's even worse!

Worse still would be the Theocracy many so called republicans and so called libertarians support. It is the same philosophy supported by ISIL and Iran. Destroy democracy and replace it with a state based on religious interpretation of the few.

Nov 13, 2014
a state based on religious interpretation of the few.

Subjugation of scientific investigation to the edicts of faith.

Now *that* scares the shit out of me.

Nov 13, 2014
the Theocracy

What theocracy?

Subjugation of scientific investigation to the edicts of faith.


Like AGW or the 'liberal' opposition to GMO and vaccination?

Nov 13, 2014
A better question to ask: Are you ready to meet Christ when He returns?
I suppose he will. Godmen began appearing a millenium or 2 before yours. They seem to be pretty popular.
https://www.youtu...-BcN8u8Q

-Robin hood (maid marion/mary magdelene?) and superman (kal el?) included. Never gets old.

Nov 13, 2014
the Theocracy

What theocracy?
Subjugation of scientific investigation to the edicts of faith.

Like AGW or the 'liberal' opposition to GMO and vaccination?


GMO - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
Vaccines - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
Homosexuality - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
Drugs - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
Abortion - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
Prostitution - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
Assisted suicide - My body, my property. I should be able to say what goes in it, and by whom.
As a true libertarian, this is what I believe. What does your religion have to say about that?

Nov 14, 2014
GMO - My body, my property.

No problem. Don't eat it. Don't do it.
But how can you deny the science behind it and advocate the use of force to make others agree with you?
Abortion - My body, my property.

But the baby is NOT your property. A baby is a unique human being that needs adults to care and feed him.
Assisted suicide - My body, my property.

So you believe some people should have state permission to murder others? You have the right to kill yourself but should not expect anyone else to go into the business of killing others.

Nov 14, 2014
As a true libertarian, this is what I believe


"Libertarianism–or, as it is sometimes called, classical liberalism–the philosophy of John Stuart Mill On Liberty, can be summed up in seven words: "Your rights end where his nose begins." Government interference with adult consensual activities is unjustified unless it can be shown to be necessary for the protection of the liberty or property of other persons."
http://quoteinves...st-nose/

This definition applies quite well for choosing to eat what you want, choosing what drugs to take or not take.
And it applies to abortion as you have no right to murder a baby, anytime.
As rights are unalienable, no one has the right to kill you, or your baby, even if you consent.

If you note the reference, one could argue that your right to drug does not abrogate your responsibilities. Drugged driving threatens the rights of others and you don't have a right to threaten the lives of others.

Nov 14, 2014
"A 22-year-old woman was diagnosed with HIV after having her nails done using shared manicure equipment.

Doctors say the case, detailed in a medical journal, has revealed a new form of transmission for the virus."
http://www.dailym...ent.html

An infected person has no right to knowingly risk the lives of others.

Nov 14, 2014
So you believe some people should have state permission to murder others? You have the right to kill yourself but should not expect anyone else to go into the business of killing others.


If you have the right to do something yourself there should be no issue with someone else doing the same thing with your permission. Objectively, and with no emotionalism, assisted suicide is no different than someone putting sun tan lotion on your back if you give them permission and assuming you have the right to do it yourself in the first place.

Nov 14, 2014
there should be no issue with someone else doing the same thing with your permission.

Sure there is.
You start down the slippery slope of state sponsored murder.

Nov 14, 2014
How do you know people WON'T work?

"On Friday, the Washington Examiner reported that according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a full 85.9 million Americans had said they did not want a job last month – 93 percent of all of those who had dropped out of labor force."
http://www.breitb...-to-Work

Nov 14, 2014
Abortion - My body, my property.

But the baby is NOT your property. A baby is a unique human being that needs adults to care and feed him.

I decide who has access to my organs, not the government. What if a baby, or an adult, needs bone marrow, blood, skin grafts, or a kidney. Would you still count not giving access as murder? It's not murder to protect ones property, regardless of who desires access to it, or their need for it.

Nov 14, 2014
there should be no issue with someone else doing the same thing with your permission.

Sure there is.
You start down the slippery slope of state sponsored murder.

Don't many states have the death penalty? Why does it require a crime to be committed to end a life? Why can't a life be ended when a person is requesting mercy and an end to their suffering?

Nov 15, 2014
[And it applies to abortion as you have no right...
I see why you don't like socialism, ryggie. You instead prefer outright COMMUNISM

Nov 15, 2014
[And it applies to abortion as you have no right...
I see why you don't like socialism, ryggie. You instead prefer outright COMMUNISM

Under communism, the state controls all the property.
Under a theocracy, your body and your soul become property of the state.

Nov 15, 2014
Don't many states have the death penalty? Why does it require a crime to be committed to end a life? Why can't a life be ended when a person is requesting mercy and an end to their suffering?


I oppose the death penalty because the govt is not always right.
I oppose state murder for 'mercy' for the same reason.
Govt run health care will 'persuade' some to 'die with dignity' to cut costs. Which they are doing in UK and have done and will do in the US.
Usually people who really want to die find a way without asking someone to murder them.

I decide who has access to my organs,

A baby is not an organ. It is a unique human being.
Your unique genetic material is your property. The baby's unique genetic material belongs to the baby, no one else.

Nov 15, 2014
I oppose the death penalty because the govt is not always right.

I oppose the death penalty because it is not the governments place to choose life or death.
Your unique genetic material is your property. The baby's unique genetic material belongs to the baby, no one else.

Exactly, a uterus is no different than the home I own. I can request to have a person removed from my home because it is my property. Should they struggle or resist and die in the process, I am not responsible for their death, regardless of their age. It is not the responsibility of the government to force me to provide care or charity for somebody else.

Nov 16, 2014
...diagnosed with HIV after having her nails done using shared manicure equipment
http://www.dailym...ent.html
An infected person has no right to knowingly risk the lives of others.
@rygg
HIV is not transmissible by airborne nor casual contact
it even says in the article
However, the case could promote caution around sharing items which may contain blood, he added.
He said: 'It should make people aware that sharing any utensils with possible blood-blood contact, such as needles used for drugs, tattoos, or acupuncture can result in transmission of viruses such as hepatitis C (HCV) and HIV.
to get HIV, she would have had to have gotten fresh blood to blood contact or an open sore, which are KNOWN methods of transmission
this is simply a UNIQUE method
HIV does not live long when exposed to air and is only viable as long as the blood is still liquid

Nov 16, 2014
An infected person has no right to knowingly risk the lives of others.
@Rygg continued
also, given the extreme sensitivity of the HIV virus, it requires special conditions to live outside the host cell
for infection there must be liquid bodily fluid transfer
so this "nail kit" transfer would still have to be from liquid bodily fluids where the HIV was present

as for your last bit quoted above:
1- did the girl KNOW she was HIV positive when sharing the kit?
2- why did the other girl share bodily fluids with a manicure kit used by a known HIV positive person?
3- legally, this is considered homicide, depending on the circumstances and outcome

IF the girl knew she was HIV positive and didn't share the info, it can be considered premeditated homicide (depending on speed and care given)
if BOTH girls knew, then it is simply an OOPS moment and really stupid


Nov 16, 2014
A baby is not an organ. It is a unique human being.
So are corpses

Nov 16, 2014
a uterus is no different than the home I own.

Yes, it is different.

It is not the responsibility of the government to force me to provide care or charity for somebody else.


True, but the govt can and should prevent anyone from assisting with the murder of a baby. Kill the baby on your own and be responsible for your actions.

Nov 16, 2014
A baby is not an organ. It is a unique human being.
So are corpses

A corpse is not alive. It was a human being.

Nov 16, 2014
A baby is not an organ. It is a unique human being.
So are corpses

A corpse is not alive. It was a human being.
Actually "Stem cells can remain alive in human corpses for at least 17 days after death." By disposing of a corpse you are committing murder, ryggie. That corpse is still a unique, living person

Nov 16, 2014
True, but the govt can and should prevent anyone from assisting with the murder of a baby. Kill the baby on your own and be responsible for your actions.

It isn't murder to defend one's property. My organs are my property. Just because there is a death by being denied access to them doesn't negate my rights. The government doesn't get to decide that a life is more important than my rights. What stops the government from taking everything that's mine in order to save more lives?

Nov 16, 2014
The government doesn't get to decide that a life is more important than my rights.

And you have no right to have anyone save your life or to take the life of your baby.
Do it yourself.

Nov 19, 2014
All you who emotionally follow an old middle eastern religion... please answer few questions

preface for 1-3 "Why did god do nothing between "
1. adam/eve & moses to communicate ?
2. moses & jesus to communicate ?
3. jesus & mohamed ie any book ?

4. If god cared for ALL people equally why didnt he duplicate the bible to give to all humans at the same time. ie Why leave it up to humans to pass it on slowly whilst other cultures werent informed ?
5. Why did jesus not write anything ?
6. Since its claimed jesus was god, wouldnt he know he would go to heaven regardless, that means he never sacrificed anything as being in heaven is better isnt it than here ?
7. Why didnt god copy the bible in all languages so all people would equally get the 'news' ?
8. Claimed jesus would be back, given errors in calender suggest 1985 was 2000 years since & its now 2014 - isnt he very late ?
9. Why does bible only write; Status, Authority, Punishment, with no science Education ?

Nov 19, 2014
verkle claimed
A better question to ask: Are you ready to meet Christ when He returns?
According to best calender estimates 1985 was actually the 2000 years, as now is 2014, isnt your jesus rather late ?

It must be obvious the new testament is a story with claims which don't make sense, the 3 disciples & luke don't agree & jesus wrote nothing.

It was a ncie piece of literature using some of the places as sets but even the so called golden rule was already known & taught by greeks ~500 years prior, what else is there ?

verkle claimed
Of course there is life out there. Atheist scientists are the ones who don't want to acknowledge that life. And keep looking for something else.
What an idiot claim, first there is no census as such as to which scientists are atheists or not. And many scientists happily accept life is very likely as amino acids have been found in space

Since god punished humans, made us suffer isnt it wrong to alleviate suffering caused by god ?

Nov 19, 2014
Mike I actually like your question

1-3 same question about God communicating ?
God did communicate. If you click on the link https://www.bible...imit=100 it gives just a word search of God speaks.

4. If god cared for ALL people equally ... Great Question. Simple answer he did. After Noah every person knew of God, people just walked away.

5. Why did jesus not write anything ? Didn't have to, witnesses to what he did wrote it down.

6. Since its claimed jesus was god,.... The most terrible thing about Jesus dying on the cross was not dying one of the most excruciating deaths, but being separated from God. Jesus felt what it was like to be separated from God. Could go into this in great depth... just no room here.

7. Why didnt god copy the bible in all languages - missionaries are translating them right now
8. Claimed jesus would be back .... He is.
9. Can't figure out your question 9.

Nov 19, 2014
Mike in all sincerity you asked some of the best questions on Christianity that I've seen on this board. They are not the cookie cutter asked and answered questions that Otto keeps throwing around.

I hope you are sincere in those questions, I'll try and answer them more in-depth tomorrow.

Nov 19, 2014
jesus would be back .... He is.


What do you mean by "he is back"?

Nov 19, 2014
Animals and aliens are atheists. Will verkle want them killed too?

Nov 20, 2014
Ren82 claimed
There is no likelihood astronomers to find real evidence for extraterrestrial life. Life does not occur by chance to expect such a thing, so this question is meaningless.
So U are now speaking for your god, claiming U know all it ever did in all times.

Not a sane position, all U have re your god is a claim from one human, not same as jesus !

Look forward to seeing how U can get out of that one - SHOW it to be true ?

Because U have claimed before you have "shown" evolution to be impossible, one way you did this is to report you cant imagine how complexity could happen.

Because YOU cannot conceive reflects on U not the patterns & arrangements of atoms & molecules U have already accepted matter to be "self organising"...

You are woefully inconsistent & twist language from emotional attachment to the idea of a god when there is no evidence. In particular, there is NO evidence the claimed being that spoke to moses is the same as "creator" !

Nov 20, 2014
There is no likelihood astronomers to find real evidence for extraterrestrial life. Life does not occur by chance to expect such a thing

Good. So if we do find extraterrestrial life in future, you'll admit you have been living a lie then.

Nov 20, 2014
Good. So if we do find extraterrestrial life in future, you'll admit you have been living a lie then.
The chance of that is much more remote than discovering alien life

Nov 20, 2014
Ren82 claimed (AGAIN)
"Good. So if we do find extraterrestrial life in future, you'll admit you have been living a lie then."
There is no such possibility except in film and advertising industry.
Why do you claim to speak for a god that is such a very bad communicator ?

How often does it speak to U Ren82 ?

Where is there any substantiation for your claim, especially so given spectral signatures for amino acids have been found in space ?

Evidence please the claimed deity of moses is the SAME being that created anything - ever ?

All U have is an old book, what makes it believable ?

And even if it was why then do you not accept the claims of mohamed who made the same claim a god spoke to him, initially in a cave ?

Your dogmatic view 'god did it' has never been substantiated, Y should anyone accept it & especially so deamnds in Leviticus ?

Should new parents look to the bible & copy the way god punishes the children of someone who disobeys - is it sane ?

Nov 20, 2014
Mike,

If you are sincere in your questions, please go to www.http://carm.org/ If you can't find an answer there let me know.

Also, I'm someone who hopes that Jesus doesn't come soon. I want the door to stay open for as long as possible.


Nov 20, 2014
Mike, the Tanakh (essentially the Old Testament) is for Jews. The New Testament is for Christians. Do you understand the distinction?

Nov 20, 2014
Mike, the Tanakh (essentially the Old Testament) is for Jews. The New Testament is for Christians. Do you understand the distinction?


Then why as a kid did I have to suffer through sermons based on the old testament?

Nov 20, 2014
Because the Roman Catholic Empire said so

Nov 20, 2014
Because the Roman Catholic Empire said so


I don't think I ever heard an Old Testament lesson from 1 Samuel 8: 11-20.
""This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. "
"17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.""

Wonder why?

Nov 20, 2014
Rygg, are you by any chance suggesting Obama was foretold in the OT?

Nov 20, 2014
Because the Roman Catholic Empire said so


I was raised in a Protestant church.

Nov 20, 2014
Mike, the Tanakh (essentially the Old Testament) is for Jews. The New Testament is for Christians. Do you understand the distinction?


Not according to my Methodist minister. We spent a lot of time on the Old Testament during confirmation. Of course, this was long ago and he was pretty old even then. So the church may have changed, as it often does to mirror the changes in society.

Nov 20, 2014
I was raised in a Protestant church.

They're all cut from the same cloth

Nov 20, 2014
Rygg, are you by any chance suggesting Obama was foretold in the OT?
Snicker.

My religion, none, will be fine with meeting aliens.

Nov 20, 2014
Da S, you ran away from the other thread after your rude challenge, so here is the proof, and I await the apology.

http://www.reuter...20131025

http://www.npr.or...japanese

http://www.thegua...-secrets

http://www.theeco...own.html

https://blog.nade...america/

http://www.washin...ism.html

Those are just the first references listed. Want the rest? Go look.

XXOO,
gkam

Nov 21, 2014
Scroofinator asked
Mike, the Tanakh (essentially the Old Testament) is for Jews. The New Testament is for Christians. Do you understand the distinction?
Sure, which raises so many questions of logic & ability of any god to communicate, which we can get to later, or rather one at a time shortly.

They are both claims, NT describes life & times of a man who somebody wrote claimed to be a god.

In greek version jesus was asked "'Are you the son of god?', he replied, 'Yes I am - as ye all are'".

So we have the OT written by moses because god spoke to him. We have the NT written by various people compiled by scribes based on the claim someone wrote that jesus was the only son of a god.

Expanding on Scroofinator's above.
Some christians accept & earnestly believe OT as absolute foundation for NT, some don't Eg many catholics accept OT as only allegory, their church has the vatican archives with additional writings.

ie Christians believe differently about OT, why ?

Nov 21, 2014
freethinking claimed
Also, I'm someone who hopes that Jesus doesn't come soon. I want the door to stay open for as long as possible.
Huh ? That makes no sense whatsoever !

What is your logic & provenance of that logic please ?

Eg. Wouldnt you want to go to heaven quickly, easily with no suffering ?

Where is it suggested or even implied jesus should 'take his time' - for what reason ?

Wouldn't U also want to stop suffering of ALL innocents or don't you accept that if jesus returns there will be a stop to all suffering for all time, he will yeah or Y not ?

Pray tell, how will jesus communicate his return please, what method will he use ?

There are so many interlinked issues of logical failures I have seen from those that are emotionally attached to a (any) dogma its scary, but nonetheless worth pursuing why a middle eastern religion took hold amongst poor impoverished people who had no means to deal with suffering - maybe the answer is in the question ;-)

Nov 21, 2014
jesus was asked "'Are you the son of god?', he replied, 'Yes I am - as ye all are'".

Never heard this, but it is my personal belief anyways. Jesus was a human at the highest state of human consciousness, and his teachings and actions are a path for anyone to try and reach this state. Same concept with the Buddha.

their church has the vatican archives with additional writings.

Don't get me started on the Vatican archives... I can only imagine the wonders that are stored there. I have no doubts that the contents of the archives would change are understanding of history.

ie Christians believe differently about OT, why ?

As a follower of Jesus, why would one care about anything before him? He told us what was needed out of the old books. The problem is his message was twisted by Constantine when he declared Rome Catholic, thus began the RCE. The rest is history

Nov 21, 2014
Scroofinator offered
Jesus was a human at the highest state of human consciousness, and his teachings and actions are a path for anyone to try and reach this state.
Nice ideal but sadly not shared by bulk of die-hard christians
https://www.youtu...81Ok9Urk

& especially weird Genesis:- https://www.youtu...SvVqzOa0

Scroofinator
Don't get me started on the Vatican archives... I can only imagine the wonders that are stored there.
Various scribe's edits in vatican, of the OT describe allegory.

Scroofinator
As a follower of Jesus, why would one care about anything before him? He told us what was needed out of the old books. The problem is his message was twisted by Constantine when he declared Rome Catholic..
It's exactly Y some god could not be involved as human (easily) over-rode it's will !

Assumed logic by fundamentalists re OT is staggeringly dogmatic avoiding foreknowledge !

What experiment could one construct to pursue ?

Nov 21, 2014
jesus was asked "'Are you the son of god?', he replied, 'Yes I am - as ye all are'".

@Scroofinator Never heard this, but it is my personal belief anyways. Jesus was a human at the highest state of human consciousness, and his teachings and actions are a path for anyone to try and reach this state. Same concept with the Buddha.
Jesus was not depicted as the son of gawd. He was depicted as the sungod. Only Atum was more powerful, having created the sungod Amen (the gawd you submit your prayers to) by masturbating

Nov 21, 2014
It's exactly Y some god could not be involved as human (easily) over-rode it's will !

God was said to have given humans free will, so your point?

Jesus was not depicted as the son of gawd.

And who is doing this depicting? Zeitgeist?

Either way, it's up to each person to choose their own beliefs, so who cares.

BTW, I don't go to church, and I don't pray. I'm just thankful that I'm conscious in this great Mystery we call the universe.

Nov 22, 2014
Scroofinator being obtuse
God was said to have given humans free will, so your point?
Was referring to humans over-riding gods will eg moses telling god not to kill when he wanted to plus any sort of prayer to get god to do something for your ego above that of others however, it should be obvious U cannot have free will without full education which is also not a static. Even moral issues; in OT & NT are cloudy to say the least.

God's treatment of us is nasty, if we used that as basis of law conflicts would increase & if as example of parenting would place them in an insane asylum.
ie Punishing the progeny of criminals etc.

Scroofinator claimed
.. it's up to each person to choose their own beliefs, so who cares.
Not at all possible by any sort of absolute is it ? Many people eg kids can't choose not to be indoctrinated & there is no particular [emotional] transition of child to adult, basic psychology.

Education far more beneficial than claim god exists.

Nov 22, 2014
On subject of ET.

In relation to OT, which is full of glaring logic stuff ups, one is moses asking to see god, who replies moses would surely die.

Proves god is not omnipotent. ie It couldnt tone down to be seen. Main reason is (a tall) moses would be embarrassed to have been made by a 3ft grey alien ET !

Its obvious that section was added as emotional conditioning enforcing power of god, which no-one has claimed since mohammed !

Ren82 answers to earlier questions ?

Evidence please the claimed deity of moses is the SAME being t