Copernicus's remains reburied in Polish cathedral

May 22, 2010 by Stanislaw Waszak
A computer reconstruction of Nicolas Copernicus made from the skull discovered in the cathedral in Frombork, northern Poland, in 2005. The remains of the 16th century father of modern astronomy, were reburied in a Polish cathedral Saturday as a cleric expressed regret for Church condemnation of his theories.

The remains of Nicolas Copernicus, the 16th century father of modern astronomy, were reburied in a Polish cathedral Saturday as a cleric expressed regret for Church condemnation of his theories.

Copernicus was finally laid to rest in a marked grave, the day following the 467th anniversary of his death, after a hunt by experts worthy of a detective story.

His coffin was entombed in the 14th century cathedral of Frombork, his northern Polish hometown, with his grave marked by a black granite headstone engraved with a map of the solar system.

The coffin had been taken Friday on a tour of the towns and villages of the northern Polish region around Frombork which Copernicus had known as a canon of the cathedral and an administrator of Church property.

In 1616, the Vatican labelled as heresy the Copernican theory that the sun, rather than the Earth, is at the centre of the universe.

It banned his pioneering work De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium (On the Revolution of the Heavenly Spheres), which shocked contemporaries when it was published shortly before his death in 1543 at the age of 70.

Copernicus had postulated that the Earth rotated on its axis once a day and travelled around the sun once a year, opposing the Church-backed Ptolemaic theory that the Earth was fixed at the centre of the universe, with the sun and stars revolving around it.

The Church only struck his work from its list of banned books in 1835, and in 1999 Polish pope John Paul II visited the astronomer's birthplace in Torun and praised his scientific achievements.

In an address at the burial service, archbishop of Lublin Jozef Zycinski criticised the "excesses of the self-proclaimed defenders of the Church" in condemning Copernicus's theories.

A mathematician, economist and physician as well as a cleric, Copernicus was buried like many other priests and laymen of Frombork in an unmarked tomb beneath the cathedral floor.

Researchers had spent the past two centuries trying to identify his grave, before finally locating it in 2005.

The remains found were positively identified by DNA testing on two strands of hair and a tooth.

"The history of the discovery was a real detective story," said Jerzy Gassowski, of the Institute of Anthropology and Archeology in Pultusk, central Poland, who located the grave.

"I found it right here," he said, pointing to a square of marble flooring at the foot of one of the cathedral's 16 altars.

Researchers discovered that Copernicus had been responsible for caring for the altar, and carried out painstaking probes, before Gassowski located the skull and bones of a man in his seventies in a pile of other remains.

The skull was sent to a police forensics laboratory in Warsaw, where experts created a computer-generated reconstruction of the man's face. The result bore a startling resemblance to portraits of Copernicus.

"Only DNA tests could offer certainty. But we needed to find some genetic material to allow comparison. And that seemed impossibly difficult, because casting a wide genealogical net failed," said Gassowski.

The precious material was finally located however -- in Sweden.

Among the booty carried off by the Swedes during their 17th century war with Poland was the Calendarium Romanum Magnum, an ancient tome by Johannes Stoeffler published in 1518 that belonged to Copernicus for many years.

It ended up in the library of Sweden's University of Uppsala.

"I had the idea to go and get the book, just in the hope of finding something by chance. And I did. There were some strands of hair in it," said Goran Henriksson, a University of Uppsala astronomer.

Swedish and Polish scientists compared the hair with a tooth from the skull found in Frombork and made a positive DNA match in 2008.

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joefarah
not rated yet May 22, 2010
It is better understood today that Church is infallible only on issues of faith and morality (and only then when it pronounces such teaching as such.
PinkElephant
4.2 / 5 (6) May 22, 2010
There's definitely something simultaneously pathetic and hilarious about a bunch of clever apes pounding one of many books written and compiled by their ancestors, donning funny clothes, and declaring themselves privy to Exclusive Truth, as well as collectively infallible. Too bad such hubris so often leads to tragedy and murder.
Mantear
1 / 5 (3) May 22, 2010
Its a shame that the first astronomer and Mathematician who first proposed a Heliocentric view is today totally forgotten and never given the Credit he deserves.
Aryabhata from the modern day India

Aryabhata gave the world the digit "0" (zero)
frajo
5 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
declaring themselves privy to Exclusive Truth, as well as collectively infallible.
Too bad you got that one wrong. Where in history did you localize a claim for "collective infallibility"?
Too bad such hubris so often leads to tragedy and murder.
Yes.
Even without donning funny clothes and without a claim for infallibility. De facto impunity despite responsibility for the deaths of many innocent people. Not in an hierarchical society but in a "democratic" one. We don't need religion to do evil things.
frajo
5 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
Its a shame that the first astronomer and Mathematician who first proposed a Heliocentric view is today totally forgotten and never given the Credit he deserves.
Aryabhata from the modern day India
Aryabhata is neither totally forgotten nor was he the first one to propose a heliocentric view. See the Wikipedia entry on "heliocentrism".
marjon
2.1 / 5 (7) May 23, 2010
The Catholic Church apologized and admitted it was wrong.
Where is the tolerance from those who attack the Church?
Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven by God, if not by atheists.
marjon
2 / 5 (6) May 23, 2010
Its a shame that the first astronomer and Mathematician who first proposed a Heliocentric view is today totally forgotten and never given the Credit he deserves.
Aryabhata from the modern day India
Aryabhata is neither totally forgotten nor was he the first one to propose a heliocentric view. See the Wikipedia entry on "heliocentrism".

What does this say about the culture in India that such discoveries were not advanced in the world?
Why did the western culture take advantage of such ideas and others did not?
Skeptic_Heretic
4.6 / 5 (5) May 23, 2010
The Catholic Church apologized and admitted it was wrong. Where is the tolerance from those who attack the Church? Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven by God, if not by atheists.

What tolerance are you looking for? If I crashed my car into your house, destroying everything you own, killing your family. Would I say "Sorry about the rug, dude." and be forgiven?
What does this say about the culture in India that such discoveries were not advanced in the world?
Why did the western culture take advantage of such ideas and others did not?

More lunacy. Western religous arrogance. How christian and tolerant of you.
ubavontuba
3.5 / 5 (11) May 23, 2010
There's definitely something simultaneously pathetic and hilarious about a bunch of clever apes pounding one of many books written and compiled by their ancestors, donning funny clothes, and declaring themselves privy to Exclusive Truth, as well as collectively infallible. Too bad such hubris so often leads to tragedy and murder.
You do realize, of course, that you just described the academic world (in general), don't you?
marjon
2.5 / 5 (4) May 23, 2010
More lunacy. Western religous arrogance. How christian and tolerant of you.

You keep demanding evidence yet you ignore data (history of western civilization) the doesn't fit your prejudice against religion.
How objective of you!
Skeptic_Heretic
4 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
You keep demanding evidence yet you ignore data (history of western civilization) the doesn't fit your prejudice against religion.
How objective of you!

What are you talking about? You're asking for tolerance of an intolerable organization. I'm telling you NO.
ubavontuba
2 / 5 (7) May 23, 2010
What are you talking about? You're asking for tolerance of an intolerable organization. I'm telling you NO.
"Copernicus' epochal book, ...On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres ...is often regarded as the starting point of modern astronomy and the defining epiphany that began the scientific revolution."
(credit: Wikipedia http://en.wikiped...pernicus )

Has it occurred to you that without the resources and free time available to him at the Church, Copernicus might have spent his life in toil, and the "scientific revolution" may have been much delayed?
marjon
1.9 / 5 (7) May 23, 2010
SH: Just pointing out that if not for Christianity, the classical liberal, western world of science and tolerance you worship would not have existed.

aaaaaaaaa
3.1 / 5 (9) May 23, 2010
All the religions are wrong and thus so are all religious people.

Dreams and visions are not real, their predictions do not come true.

god loves, protects and saves you! No it doesn't.

In reality religion causes war, over population and discrimination. (To name but a few).

Scientists have been Persecuted by these NUTTERS for long enough.

If Galileo Galilei and Nicolas Copernicus were alive today they would say "It's time to Fight Back".

Skeptic_Heretic
4.5 / 5 (6) May 23, 2010
SH: Just pointing out that if not for Christianity, the classical liberal, western world of science and tolerance you worship would not have existed.
And you'd be wrong to do so, foir all knowledgable people know that the Western Social contract comes from Athens, Solon to be precise, about 500BC or so and the Legal contract, from mesopotamia about 5000 years ago from Hammurabi. More Christian indoctrination. Anything to defend the faith and make it look good....
Has it occurred to you that without the resources and free time available to him at the Church, Copernicus might have spent his life in toil, and the "scientific revolution" may have been much delayed?

Has it occured to you that the industrial and scientific revolutions were already 600 years delayed at that time due to the Christianity? Copernicus didn't succeed because of Christianity, he succeeded despite of it.
PinkElephant
4 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
@frajo,
Too bad you got that one wrong. Where in history did you localize a claim for "collective infallibility"?
Well, I don't think even Christians are arrogant enough to call THEMSELVES infallible (they have this whole "born sinner" trip to deal with), with possibly one exception being the Pope. But they hold the Church (being a collective of humans) infallible. Traditionally/historically, it was just plain infallible in all matters and on all accounts. Lately, we have more prevailing attitudes exemplified by joefarah above:
It is better understood today that Church is infallible only on issues of faith and morality (and only then when it pronounces such teaching as such)
So, no longer personal infallibility. But collective infallibility? Sure. Just as long as we proclaim it unequivocally and formally enough... LMAO
PinkElephant
4.8 / 5 (5) May 23, 2010
@ubavontuba,
You do realize, of course, that you just described the academic world (in general), don't you?
You're nuts. When has the academic world pronounced itself infallible and inerrant? The whole scientific process is geared toward continuously testing current assumptions and pushing the boundaries. If there's one singular prevailing attitude in academia, is that we don't know but we're going to try our best to figure it out.

Now I'll grant you that frequently "alternative theories" are shot down with extreme prejudice. But that usually happens because respective theoreticians are either unaware of, or have ignored certain empirical findings with which their theories implacably clash. Usually this is the outcome when poor or lacking scientific education is combined with narcissistic hubris.
marjon
1.7 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
And you'd be wrong to do so, foir all knowledgable people know that the Western Social contract comes from Athens, Solon to be precise, about 500BC or so and the Legal contract, from mesopotamia about 5000 years ago from Hammurabi. More Christian indoctrination. Anything to defend the faith and make it look good....

What happened between 500BC and now? The Greeks certainly did little after Rome conquered them and Rome fell ~450AD. AD, Anno Domini and BC, before Christ. If Christianity and zero impact why did the Western world measure time based upon his birth?
What is the 'Western Social Contract'?
Certainly Greeks and Romans articulated individual liberty at some times in their culture, but they did little to advance such liberty.
It was a Christian in Britain who started the end of slavery and Christians helped to end slavery in the USA. And if not for Christian monks, much history would not have survived the pagan invasions of Rome.
PinkElephant
4.5 / 5 (4) May 23, 2010
@marjon,

When it comes to the Church, we see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil.

That a boy. Have a bone.
Skeptic_Heretic
4 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
If Christianity and zero impact why did the Western world measure time based upon his birth?
Anno Dominae, not ni, is based on the relatively new revisions of history that Christians performed in the 1400's. January 1st was a pagan holiday, Christmas was a pagan holiday, Easter was a pagan holiday, it's Christian now because Christianity evolved from paganism.
What is the 'Western Social Contract'?
Ha.
It was a Christian in Britain who started the end of slavery and Christians helped to end slavery in the USA. And if not for Christian monks, much history would not have survived the pagan invasions of Rome.
So much wrong in so little print.

Solon began Athens by forgiving all slaves of their debts and freeing the middle class from economic bondage before Christianity existed, so Christianity wasn't the first. The goths were Christians so Christianity invaded Rome, it didn't defend it. All americans ended slavery, not just the minority xtians.
marjon
1 / 5 (4) May 23, 2010
The whole scientific process is geared toward continuously testing current assumptions and pushing the boundaries.

Not when in comes to AGW.
Skeptic_Heretic
4.7 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
The whole scientific process is geared toward continuously testing current assumptions and pushing the boundaries.

Not when in comes to AGW.

So give me a better theory to describe the millions of experiments and billions of observations that AGW can explain now that they've been able to consolidate the raw data for public use. Give me a competing theory.
marjon
1 / 5 (5) May 23, 2010
Christianity wasn't the first.

Never said they were, but it was Christians who implemented such sound ideas. Christians prevailed when Solon and the Greeks did not.
Skeptic_Heretic
4.3 / 5 (4) May 23, 2010
It was a Christian in Britain who started the end of slavery
Solon began Athens by forgiving all slaves of their debts and freeing the middle class from economic bondage before Christianity existed, so Christianity wasn't the first.
Never said they were,

Yes, you just did. This is how ignorant you are when spoken to. You don't even have the balls to admit when you're absolutely wrong and it's right in front of your face.
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
"UN says case for saving species 'more powerful than climate change'"
http://www.guardi...c-report
What changed?
"The report will advocate massive changes to the way the global economy is run"
Of course they will. That is the real issue, power. State controlled economies have been proven to be most detrimental to the environment.
Skeptic_Heretic
4 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
"UN says case for saving species 'more powerful than climate change'"
http://www.guardi...c-report
What changed?
"The report will advocate massive changes to the way the global economy is run"
Of course they will. That is the real issue, power. State controlled economies have been proven to be most detrimental to the environment.

You're in a car with no brakes, meanwhile there's 5 minutes until a bomb in the back seat explodes. Which is more pressing if you're hurtling down the highway at 90 miles an hour? The brakes. Which one will kill you? Both. Which one is dangerous? Both.

Another non-statement from you. You're quite good at not sticking to the point or making any sense.
marjon
2 / 5 (4) May 23, 2010
It was a Christian in Britain who started the end of slavery
Solon began Athens by forgiving all slaves of their debts and freeing the middle class from economic bondage before Christianity existed, so Christianity wasn't the first.
Never said they were,

Yes, you just did. This is how ignorant you are when spoken to. You don't even have the balls to admit when you're absolutely wrong and it's right in front of your face.

"After the lawgiver Solon abolished citizen slavery about 594 BC, wealthy Athenians came to rely on enslaved peoples from outside Attica. "
http://www.britan...le-24157
The Christians Wilberforce helped to abolish slavery for all humans.
Skeptic_Heretic
4 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
"After the lawgiver Solon abolished citizen slavery about 594 BC, wealthy Athenians came to rely on enslaved peoples from outside Attica. "

Still not going to admit you're wrong? Really? You even linked it. The beginning of abolition started with the tenets of Solon, a non-christian.
marjon
1 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
"UN says case for saving species 'more powerful than climate change'"
http://www.guardi...c-report
What changed?
"The report will advocate massive changes to the way the global economy is run"
Of course they will. That is the real issue, power. State controlled economies have been proven to be most detrimental to the environment.

You're in a car with no brakes, meanwhile there's 5 minutes until a bomb in the back seat explodes. Which is more pressing if you're hurtling down the highway at 90 miles an hour? The brakes. Which one will kill you? Both. Which one is dangerous? Both.

Another non-statement from you. You're quite good at not sticking to the point or making any sense.

What state run economy has improved the environment?
Skeptic_Heretic
4 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
What state run economy has improved the environment?

Which environment? Do you mean the natural environment, the economic environment, the social environment? What do you consider to be a good or beneficial change? What is the initial state so that I can measure improvement?

Ask a real question and I can answer it.

By the way, I looked up your abolitionist, Lord Mansfield, that man who made slavery in England an illegality, predates him.
Seems Wilberforce wasn't a liberator either.
Wilberforce was convinced of the importance of religion, morality, and education. He championed causes and campaigns such as the Society for Suppression of Vice, British missionary work in India, the creation of a free colony in Sierra Leone, the foundation of the Church Mission Society and the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. His underlying conservatism led him to support politically and socially repressive legislation, and resulted in criticism.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
So marjon, how can you call yourself a Christian when you bear false witness so often?
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (5) May 23, 2010
Among fundamentalists, bearing false witness upon the infidels is not a sin: it's a badge of honor.

The hilarious part is, they seem to think they're actually fooling someone. =D
marjon
1 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
"Wilberforce was a deeply religious English member of parliament and social reformer who was very influential in the abolition of the slave trade and eventually slavery itself in the British empire. "
"In 1780, Wilberforce became member of parliament for Hull, later representing Yorkshire. His dissolute lifestyle changed completely when he became an evangelical Christian, and in 1784 joined a leading group known as the Clapham Sect. His Christian faith prompted him to become interested in social reform, particularly the improvement of factory conditions in Britain.

The abolitionist Thomas Clarkson had an enormous influence on Wilberforce. He and others were campaigning for an end to the trade in which British ships were carrying black slaves from Africa, in terrible conditions, to the West Indies as goods to be bought and sold. Wilberforce was persuaded to lobby for the abolition of the slave trade and for 18 years he regularly introduced anti-slavery motions in parliament."
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 23, 2010
And you even provided the quote that shows you lied above. You have proven that you have indeed born false witness, and stated that you believe the bible is literally true.

You are not a Christian by self admission.

Amazing how crazy you sound when you can't keep track of your Own justifications for false thought.

Try science, when we self contradict, we don't have dogma preventing it from making sense.
marjon
1 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
Mansfield's ruling:"This ruling applied only to England, and not the rest of the British Empire, and British commerce in slaves continued for thirty-five years until 1807, when Parliament formally abolished the slave trade. "
"Lord Mansfield however, after considering the potential economic collapse following abolition and legal precedence against abolishing slavery, made it clear he intended the ruling to pertain only to Somerset. "http://www.cultur...art47633
Like Solon, he only had the courage to end slavery in England, the the Empire.

Christians are not perfect, but the they are forgiven.
How do you reconcile your lies SH?
PinkElephant
5 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
Who cares about Lord Mansfield? I want to know where the Archbishop of Canterbury stood amidst all this. THAT would be Christianity in action... (have fun learning)

And really, it took 1500+ years of tyrannical European Christiandom before slavery was finally considered immoral? (Too bad as well, what happened to the heathens of the Americas, Africa, SE Asia, and Australia, in the interim... nothing like getting brought close to Jesus in a hurry, eh?) Gee, Christianity is one heck of a driving force in history; I'll give you that! But I think another major reason slavery was abolished, was due to the impending high-speed collision between Australia and Alaska.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
How do you reconcile your lies SH?
Show me one and I shall recant.

I can show you one of yours right on this page.
It was a Christian in Britain who started the end of slavery.
You still won't admit it had nothing to do with Christianity. The fact that the first man to make a legal decree of the freedom of slaves was not a Christian, and pre-dated the mythical Christ by a minimum of 500 years. You imply that Solon only had the courage to end slavery in Athens, and you say Mansfield only had the courage to end slavery in England, then you list someone who was not a leading member of the abolitionist movement and who only led to the freeing of English slaves based upon the work of Mansfield.

Freedom, once lost, requires hard work to recapture. Now you want to take that freedom away from people like me because we don't listen to your religion in lieu of fact. Your arguments are immoral, and you are a liar.

marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
"From the 1760s, the Anglican Evangelical Granville Sharp campaigned with some success in the courts on behalf of vulnerable black Britons - in the Somerset case of 1772, Lord Mansfield ruled that once in Britain, slaves could not be compelled to return to the colonies. [3] By the 1770s, Evangelicals were waking up to the seriousness of the issue - inspired by Benezet and Sharp, the British Methodist John Wesley and the American Presbyterian Benjamin Rush denounced the slave trade in influential pamphlets. Increasingly, the horrors of this traffic in human beings were being exposed to public view - the most notorious atrocity involved the slave ship Zong, whose captain had thrown 130 slaves overboard in order to claim insurance for their deaths."
"Yet all agree that Quakers and Evangelicals played a central role in the abolitionist movement"

http://www.jubile...hp?id=51
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 23, 2010
"Yet all agree that Quakers and Evangelicals played a central role in the abolitionist movement"
Where have I said otherwise?

My statement that all of this debate came from was my statement that the laws and morals of western civilization predate the Bible.
You said "A christian started the abolitionist movement"
Which isn't true and I proved that, which you provided quotation for but didn't agree with...

So the proof is in your face and now you're changing the game to deal with the proof you don't want to admit to.

Answer this question, if you won't, I've won: Do you agree that the ideas of freedom from slavery predate Christianity seeing as you've provided conclusive evidence to that point?
marjon
1 / 5 (2) May 23, 2010
"Abolitionists believed that common humanity entailed equal rights, especially the right to liberty. Because liberty was a gift of the Creator, men were not free to dispose of it by selling themselves into slavery, nor could they lawfully deprive anyone else of their liberty by force."
"The Protestant passion for liberty was fed by Scripture. Abolitionists recalled the foundational significance of the Exodus in Israel's history, and argued that it revealed divine opposition to human systems of oppression and bondage."
"The profoundly Christian character of the abolitionist movement constitutes a serious stumbling block for secular commentators who rail against the ‘mixing of religion and politics'."
"If we doubt the power and promise of Christian beliefs, we should remember the abolitionists."
http://www.jubile...hp?id=51
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 23, 2010
Answer this question, if you won't, I've won: Do you agree that the ideas of freedom from slavery predate Christianity seeing as you've provided conclusive evidence to that point?


So do I win or are you going to answer?
PinkElephant
4.3 / 5 (3) May 23, 2010
Don't you get it yet, Skeptic: opinions of infidels neither count nor exist, sort of like gays in Iran.

The only thing that counts, is what Christians think and do: like all those Christians (including the official establishment) that the abolitionists struggled AGAINST.

I mean, who do you think Protestants were protesting against? Not the dominant Christian institution of the time, surely, blessed be its heavenly father on Earth? Nay, they were obviously and self-evidently protesting against the pagans and the infidels.

;D
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 23, 2010
Don't you get it yet, Skeptic: opinions of infidels neither count nor exist, sort of like gays in Iran.
No I fully understand this. I want Marjon to understand what he's really saying to people.

You're wrong and I'm right because God said so, even though I can't prove it. So do what I say because God said so!

Hence my new theory of creation: Justnowism. See here:
http://www.youtub...J3ydBQiE
gwargh
1 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
"After the lawgiver Solon abolished citizen slavery about 594 BC, wealthy Athenians came to rely on enslaved peoples from outside Attica. "

Still not going to admit you're wrong? Really? You even linked it. The beginning of abolition started with the tenets of Solon, a non-christian.

I wish people like you and marjon would sometimes, if not always, rely on the principle of charity. Consider his strongest argument, in which he is right: the modern end for slavery was started by a christian.

Whether or not Christianity and not the person should be credited for the feat is another question entirely.
gwargh
1 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
Religion, like all institution with power, is misused, and often terribly so. It is important that those who are religious admit this, but it is just as important that religion be treated as a means, and not as an end in itself.

The world could really do with a little bit of tolerance: from everyone.
Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (1) May 23, 2010
I wish people like you and marjon would sometimes, if not always, rely on the principle of charity. Consider his strongest argument, in which he is right: the modern end for slavery was started by a christian.
And we've proven that it isn't right.

I refuse to insert a lie as truth in a discussion about morality. Sorry, not going to happen. You should be ashamed that you have done so.

Since his strongest point is a lie, as we've shown above, the only charity I can offer is truth, which I am doing and you are displeased with.

Why do you think the truth isn't tolerant? Do you believe we should go about lying about the truth for the sake of manners? In that eventuality you're worse than the creationists, and about as wrong as wrong can be.

Before comming around with your subjective morality and tolerance, try to actually get yourself on a moral and tolerant highground first.
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
@ Skeptic Heretic
Has it occurred to you that the industrial and scientific revolutions were already 600 years delayed at that time due to the Christianity? Copernicus didn't succeed because of Christianity, he succeeded despite of it.
How do you justify this argument?

The Church was the primary reservoir of preserved knowledge left over from the fall of the Roman Empire. Without the Church, Europe would have fallen back into the stone age.

The Church preserved knowledge for engineering, construction, steel making, reading, writing, and a slew of other important advancements. Who else could have united Europe (albeit loosely) during the dark ages and preserved all of this? It was a time of anarchy!
ubavontuba
1.5 / 5 (4) May 24, 2010
You're nuts. When has the academic world pronounced itself infallible and inerrant?
You, as an example, essentially do it all the time!
The whole scientific process is geared toward continuously testing current assumptions and pushing the boundaries. If there's one singular prevailing attitude in academia, is that we don't know but we're going to try our best to figure it out.
Oh brother. When is Hawking going to admit he forgot about the GP/KE potential energy between his infalling particles and the black hole?

Now I'll grant you that frequently "alternative theories" are shot down with extreme prejudice. But that usually happens because respective theoreticians are either unaware of, or have ignored certain empirical findings with which their theories implacably clash. Usually this is the outcome when poor or lacking scientific education is combined with narcissistic hubris.

Oh brother, academic repression is rampant, and outsiders are wholly unwelcome.
Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (2) May 24, 2010
Oh brother. When is Hawking going to admit he forgot about the GP/KE potential energy between his infalling particles and the black hole?
He did, back when he described how information is not lost in blackholes.
The Church was the primary reservoir of preserved knowledge left over from the fall of the Roman Empire. Without the Church, Europe would have fallen back into the stone age.

And you're ignoring the fact that it was the Church that ushered in those dark ages by employing the goths to destroy the Roman Empire.

The church preserved only the knowledge that was worthy of stealing in their opinion, so that they could use it while the common man languished in a God driven non-scientific theocracy. Please learn your history. Or at least take a trip to the vatican to view their pilfered scientific works, oh wait, that's right. NO ONE is allowed into the library.
RobotMonkey
not rated yet May 24, 2010
Is everyone done talking about Christians and slavery? It's nice that some Christians wanted to abolish it, but I'm surprised no one mentioned all the Christians that used the bible to defend slavery. Of course, some are still around today. History is full of comedy. http://en.wikiped..._slavery
RobotMonkey
5 / 5 (2) May 24, 2010
Is everyone done talking about Christians and slavery? It's nice that some Christians wanted to abolish it, but I'm surprised no one mentioned all the Christians that used the bible to defend slavery. Of course, some are still around today. History is full of comedy. http://en.wikiped..._slavery
gwargh
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
@Marjon

See, this is the problem: while I tried to comment on your argument, you are rather swift at calling me worse than creationists. That is neither here nor there.

You haven't proven that marjon's argument isn't right. You've proven, and so has marjon, that the Greeks were early starters of the end to slavery. But it can easily be argued that this end was: 1) temporary, 2)and not all encompassing (slavery was ended only to those already enslaved, while nothing prevented slaves from being brought in from other countries).

Again, whether the modern start to the end of slavery had anything to do with christianity is doubtful, but be charitable, allow that one claim to be debatable (not true, debatable. I'm not telling you to lie, I'm asking you to listen).
marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
Based upon this discussion (http://www.usu.ed...fal.htm) the fall of Western Rome was started by the Huns and exacerbated by the bureaucracy of Rome itself. The Huns split and drove the Goths to shelter within the Empire. The Visigoths felt mistreated by Rome and when a Roman army was sent to pacify them, the Roman army was defeated and its general killed. This exposed to others the weakness of Rome.
"For example, if Christianity so weakened the Roman West in late antiquity, why didn't it weaken the other half, the staunchly orthodox East which survived nearly a millennium after the collapse of the West? "
"When the flow of cheap slaves began to dry up, estates throughout the Empire could no longer sustain the abuse of human resources on which they had formerly depended"
"a wretchedly corrupt political structure, characterized by an oppressive burden of taxation"
(sounds familiar to those in NJ, MA and IL)
marjon
1 / 5 (2) May 24, 2010
Is everyone done talking about Christians and slavery? It's nice that some Christians wanted to abolish it, but I'm surprised no one mentioned all the Christians that used the bible to defend slavery. Of course, some are still around today. History is full of comedy. http://en.wikiped..._slavery

Countries around the world spend significant funds to maintain primary standards labs for length, mass, time, etc. They do this to facilitate commerce.
Christians have a standard, the New Testament, with which they may all as individuals return to to evaluate whether slavery is good or bad or if they should force people to convert.
Today we have a US AG who condemns a law he has never read, the AZ immigration law. And other gov't officials who have probably never read the Constitution they swear to uphold and protect.
Some Christians claimed slavery was justified by Jesus. They were wrong and other Christians fought, and continue to fight slavery.
gwargh
not rated yet May 24, 2010
contd.
I am not taking a moral highground, I'm asking for everyone to return to debate rather than attack. Both you and marjon have resolved to shout more or less the same arguments at each other. This solves nothing (especially when you are aggressively defending from an outright stupid claim, when you could simply let it go). I'm not asking you to lie or let evil persist, what I'm saying is that a hammer a teacher does not make. You cannot win over marjon by telling him everything he's ever believed in is wrong. No rational human being would accept that claim, it would seem too absurd. You CAN, however, educate him, slowly, patiently, and one truth at a time, not by generalizations, that perhaps he's got things off a bit.

Lack of compromise, not religion, leads to wars and intolerance. But then again, what do I know, I'm clearly worse than creationists and a creature of pure evil no doubt :)
gwargh
5 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010

Countries around the world spend significant funds to maintain primary standards labs for length, mass, time, etc. They do this to facilitate commerce.
Christians have a standard, the New Testament, with which they may all as individuals return to to evaluate whether slavery is good or bad or if they should force people to convert.
Today we have a US AG who condemns a law he has never read, the AZ immigration law. And other gov't officials who have probably never read the Constitution they swear to uphold and protect.
Some Christians claimed slavery was justified by Jesus. They were wrong and other Christians fought, and continue to fight slavery.

I understand what you're getting at, but I don't believe that is a fair statement. It is one thing to say not all Christians are guilty for these actions, and an entirely different one to simply say that those who are guilty are probably not real Christians. (in that one is correct and the other one is fairly ignorant)
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
Oh brother. When is Hawking going to admit he forgot about the GP/KE potential energy between his infalling particles and the black hole?
He did, back when he described how information is not lost in blackholes.
No. you're thinking of a whole 'nuther thing. I'm talking about unaccounted energy - specifically in regard to the black hole's total mass/energy.
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
The Church was the primary reservoir of preserved knowledge left over from the fall of the Roman Empire. Without the Church, Europe would have fallen back into the stone age.

And you're ignoring the fact that it was the Church that ushered in those dark ages by employing the goths to destroy the Roman Empire.

The church preserved only the knowledge that was worthy of stealing in their opinion, so that they could use it while the common man languished in a God driven non-scientific theocracy. Please learn your history. Or at least take a trip to the vatican to view their pilfered scientific works, oh wait, that's right. NO ONE is allowed into the library.
Oh brother. You need to learn your history! At the time the Western Empire fell, most of the Christians were Imperial citizens! It was legislated by Emperor Constantine!

The Goths were simply taking advantage of an internally weakened Roman Empire.
marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
not real Christians.

I said they were wrong.
Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven, if they truly repent.
You CAN, however, educate him, slowly, patiently, and one truth at a time, not by generalizations, that perhaps he's got things off a bit.

I am educated just fine, thank you as are many others with more education and degrees than I have who have faith in God. Maybe you should wonder why Nobel prize winning physicists among many other highly educated people have faith in God. Claiming they are 'uneducated' won't fly.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 24, 2010

Christians are not perfect, but they are forgiven, if they truly repent.
What if they're a liar?

It was a Christian in Britain who started the end of slavery

Solon began Athens by forgiving all slaves of their debts and freeing the middle class from economic bondage before Christianity existed, so Christianity wasn't the first.

Never said they were,
Remember that gem?
marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 24, 2010
What if they're a liar?

God knows.

BTW, when did the Jews and Muslim conflict stop European trade with China?

I started with pointing out that were not for Christianity, the our modern world would not exist. The fact you know anything about Solon is due to such Christians.
Good for Solon for freeing his fellow Athenians from slavery. Too bad he didn't have the Christian's philosophy that ALL human beings have a right to liberty. If he had, maybe the modern western world could have existed 500 years earlier.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) May 25, 2010
BTW, when did the Jews and Muslim conflict stop European trade with China?
Christians and Muslims, last time I'm going to tell you. In your bias you decided to replace Christian with Jewish to prevent any upset to your view of history. Grow up.
I started with pointing out that were not for Christianity, the our modern world would not exist. The fact you know anything about Solon is due to such Christians.
No it's due to Islamic philosophers. Clear, unbroken lines of influence lead from ancient Greek and Hellenistic philosophers, to medieval Islamic philosophers, to the European Renaissance and Enlightenment. The Christians subverted all knowledge of western philosophy.
Good for Solon for freeing his fellow Athenians from slavery. Too bad he didn't have the Christian's philosophy that ALL human beings have a right to liberty. If he had, maybe the modern western world could have existed 500 years earlier.
HAHAHAHA. This is the silliest thing you've ever said.
Skeptic_Heretic
2 / 5 (1) May 25, 2010
No. you're thinking of a whole 'nuther thing. I'm talking about unaccounted energy - specifically in regard to the black hole's total mass/energy.

Yes and I'm not talking about a whole nother thing.

Hawking postulated two things about black hoels in that speech. 1) Hawking radiation is a quantum artifact allowing for a matter evaporitive effect. 2) That energy is what allows for the subluminal speeds of matter LEAVING a black hole that we've observed.
ubavontuba
1 / 5 (1) May 25, 2010
No. you're thinking of a whole 'nuther thing. I'm talking about unaccounted energy - specifically in regard to the black hole's total mass/energy.

Yes and I'm not talking about a whole nother thing.

Hawking postulated two things about black hoels in that speech. 1) Hawking radiation is a quantum artifact allowing for a matter evaporitive effect. 2) That energy is what allows for the subluminal speeds of matter LEAVING a black hole that we've observed.
You still got it wrong. The GP/KE energy I'm talking about is between the black hole and the INFALLING particle. It has nothing to do with the escaping particle.

By the way, no one has "observed" Hawking radiation (as far as I know).
marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 26, 2010
ME:
As a side, China had been printing long before Gutenberg. Why didn't they spread their technology and innovation around the world? Is it a coincidence that it was the West that did so?

SH:
The ongoing war with Islam and Judiasm prevented viable trade routes to and from. It was considered an excommunicable sin to use ANY eastern goods at one point in time as the only way to receive them was in barter with the enemy or looting the holy land. Christianity didn't spread the printing press. Rebellion against theocratic rule did.

SH:
In your bias you decided to replace Christian with Jewish to prevent any upset to your view of history. Grow up.

I did not make the claim Jews and Muslims were fighting 1000 years ago. You did.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 26, 2010
The CHRISTIANS' ongoing war with Judiasm and Islam.

Context clues are completely lost on you aren't they? I'll recant and say you didn't make the claim, you were just to stupid to read the original material correctly.
danman5000
5 / 5 (3) May 26, 2010
Not to derail yet another entertaining religion argument, but did anyone else notice that Copernicus looks eerily similar to James Cromwell?
marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 26, 2010
The CHRISTIANS' ongoing war with Judiasm and Islam.

Context clues are completely lost on you aren't they? I'll recant and say you didn't make the claim, you were just to stupid to read the original material correctly.

You are the one who demanded a precise definition of 'love' before you could prove you 'loved' anyone. You don't demand such precision from yourself?
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 26, 2010
You are the one who demanded a precise definition of 'love' before you could prove you 'loved' anyone. You don't demand such precision from yourself?

How could I accurately address your question if you don't define the ambiguous terms? I wouldn't be able to provide you a precise answer without clarification. I was holding myself to a higher standard than your question allowed, and I expect the same of you. If the change of one word, either "with" or "between", throws you off that much, perhaps this isn't the correct forum in which to discuss your views while evading derision.
marjon
1 / 5 (1) May 26, 2010
I was holding myself to a higher standard

It would be quite a change if you would continue to do so.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet May 26, 2010
It would be quite a change if you would continue to do so.

A very bold statement for you to make. Especially as the record above makes your stance appear invalid. If you have no further arguments and prefer ad hominem attacks I'd say we're finished here.
surethatsright
5 / 5 (1) May 30, 2010
Its probably what Nicolas Copernicus would have wanted.
An unrestful eternity trapped within the very walls that took much pleasure in giving him a lifetime of persecution. Your welcome Nick
Bloodoflamb
not rated yet May 30, 2010
Countries around the world spend significant funds to maintain primary standards labs for length, mass, time, etc.
The second is defined through radiative transitions in Cesium atoms. The meter is defined from this definition of seconds and the speed of light. Mass is the only unit of measure which has a physical standard maintained anywhere.
marjon
not rated yet May 30, 2010
Countries around the world spend significant funds to maintain primary standards labs for length, mass, time, etc.
The second is defined through radiative transitions in Cesium atoms. The meter is defined from this definition of seconds and the speed of light. Mass is the only unit of measure which has a physical standard maintained anywhere.

How is the standard meter transferred to the real world? Where is that accomplished?