Gloomy Americans foresee a downhill slide to 2050

Jan 03, 2014 by Connie Cass
Political science student La'Shon Callaway, 19, of Egg Harbor Township, N.J., poses for a photograph as he stands on the campus of The Richard Stockton College of New Jersey, in Galloway, N.J., Tuesday, Dec. 31, 2013. Callaway is optimistic that racial discrimination will continue to decline over his lifetime. "People are getting tired of it, and fed up," said Callaway. "They're realizing even if you're not the same color as me, you're still a person and I'm still a person." Ask people to imagine American life in 2050, and you'll get some dreary visions. Whether they foresee runaway technology or runaway government, rampant poverty or vanishing morality, a majority of Americans predict a future worse than today. (AP Photo/Mel Evans)

(AP)—Ask Americans to imagine life in 2050, and you'll get some dreary visions.

Whether they foresee runaway technology or runaway government, rampant poverty or vanishing morality, a majority of Americans predict a future worse than today.

Whites are particularly gloomy: Only 1 in 6 expects better times over the next four decades. Also notably pessimistic are middle-age and older people, those who earn mid-level incomes and Protestants, a new national poll finds.

"I really worry about my grandchildren, I do," says 74-year-old Penny Trusty of Rockville, Maryland, a retired software designer and grandmother of five. "I worry about the lowering of morals and the corruption and the confusion that's just raining down on them."

Even groups with comparatively sunny outlooks—racial and ethnic minorities, the young and the nonreligious—are much more likely to say things will be the same or get worse than to predict a brighter future.

"Changes will come, and some of them are scary," says Kelly Miller, 22, a freshly minted University of Minnesota sports management grad.

She looks forward to some wonderful things, like 3D printers creating organs for transplant patients. But Miller envisions Americans in 2050 blindly relying on robots and technology for everything from cooking dinner to managing their money.

"It's taking away our free choice and human thought," she says. "And there's potential for government to control and regulate what this artificial intelligence thinks."

Overall, 54 percent of those surveyed expect American life to go downhill, while 23 percent think it will improve, according to a December survey from the AP-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.

Only 21 percent predict life will stay about the same. That minority may be onto something, however.

While no one can say what catastrophes or human triumphs are to come, contentment at a personal level has proven remarkably stable over the past four decades.

Interviews by the federally funded General Social Survey, one of the nation's longest-running surveys of social trends, show Americans' overall happiness as well as satisfaction with their jobs and marriages barely fluctuating since 1972. Those decades spanned the sexual revolution and the women's rights movement, race riots and advances, wars from Vietnam through Afghanistan, the birth of the home computer and the smartphone, boom times and hard times.

Despite the recent shift toward negativity, the portion of U.S. residents rating themselves very or pretty happy stayed around 9 out of 10.

"Most people evaluate their lives very stably from year to year," said Tom W. Smith, the director since 1980 of the GSS, conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago.

The GSS, conducted once every two years, will send interviewers back into the field in 2014. The AP-NORC Center survey asked people to rate the change in American life during the period tracked by the GSS, from 1972 to 2012.

A majority—54 percent—say life in America is worse today than four decades ago.

Those old enough to remember the early '70s are especially nostalgic. Those who say U.S. life has declined are more apt to name politics, the economy, moral values or changes in families as the biggest difference.

Penny Trusty, 74, a retired software designer and grandmother of five, poses with photographs of her grandchildren in her home in Rockville, Md., Thursday, Dec. 26, 2013. Ask people to imagine American life in 2050, and you'll hear some dreary forecasts. Whether they foresee runaway technology or runaway government, rampant poverty or vanishing morality, a majority of Americans predict a future worse than today. (AP Photo/Charles Dharapak)

The 3 in 10 who think life is better are more likely to point to computers and technology as the big change. Racial and ethnic minorities are apt to cite domestic issues, including civil rights.

Equality

Some of the opinions voiced in the 1972 survey are rarely uttered today.

Back then, nearly 4 in 10 nonblacks agreed with the idea that whites had the right to keep blacks "out of their neighborhoods." A quarter of nonblacks said they wouldn't vote for a black man for president, and 26 percent of all adults wouldn't back a well-qualified woman.

Now the president of the United States is black and a woman is the most-discussed presidential prospect for 2016. The GSS dropped those three questions in the 1990s.

Love and family

In 1972, the was ablaze. That year the Supreme Court ruled that unmarried couples had a right to birth control.

Still, a third of Americans back then disapproved of a woman working if she had a husband to support her. The GSS no longer bothers asking that one.

Americans today are more worried about divorce and the increasing number of never-married moms. Nearly 4 out of 10 women who gave birth in 2011 were unmarried, according to the census.

Despite the social turmoil, 98 percent of married people today say their union is happy, including two-thirds who are "very happy." And marital fidelity remains an ideal endorsed by nearly all Americans.

The political debate over abortion shows no signs of being resolved, more than 40 years after Roe vs. Wade. Young people today are somewhat more conservative on the issue than middle-aged Americans.

Gay marriage, on the other hand, appears headed toward future acceptance. Young people are solidly in favor, while opposition is strongest among the oldest Americans.

Money

Recession, a stock market crash, runaway inflation and an oil crisis marred the U.S. economy in the early 1970s. Forty years later, those look like the good times to many.

Before the Great Recession hit in 2007, most people consistently said their family finances were getting better instead of worse. That's not the case anymore. Americans are more likely to consider themselves "lower class" than ever in GSS history—8 percent say that.

Whites are especially pessimistic about their prospects. Black and Hispanic optimism surged after Barack Obama became the first black president in 2008.

Yet overall, about half of Americans still believe their children will have a better standard of living than they do.

"They're going to have to deal with a lot," Bill Hardy, a 67-year-old investment adviser, said of his grown children and three grandkids. "They'll deal with it. Kids today are very smart."

Explore further: The people's agenda—America's priorities and outlook for 2014

More information: AP-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research: www.apnorc.org

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orti
5 / 5 (2) Jan 03, 2014
Hope & change.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Jan 03, 2014
Thank you 'progressives'.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (9) Jan 03, 2014
"Hospital staff in Northern Virginia are turning away sick people on a frigid Thursday morning because they can't determine whether their Obamacare insurance plans are in effect.

Patients in a close-in DC suburb who think they've signed up for new insurance plans are struggling to show their December enrollments are in force, and health care administrators aren't taking their word for it.

In place of quick service and painless billing, these Virginians are now facing the threat of sticker-shock that comes with bills they can't afford.

Read more: http://www.dailym...pL7i9597
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (7) Jan 03, 2014
"IMF paper warns of 'savings tax' and mass write-offs as West's debt hits 200-year high
Debt burdens in developed nations have become extreme by any historical measure and will require a wave of haircuts, warns IMF paper "
http://www.telegr...igh.html
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Jan 03, 2014
" Let's see what Copernicus said:

"But if such persons will only consider the common good [communis utilitas], they certainly will not deny that an excellent currency is good not only for the state but for themselves and all classes of people, and that cheap money is harmful. The truth of this is clear, not only for many other reasons but especially thanks to that wise teacher, experience: we see countries that have good money flourishing most of all, and those with poor money declining and perishing…."
"We are forty-two years into our own experiment in funny money. During that time, even according to comically rosy government statistics, the median male full-time income has stagnated. Median household "real" income has fallen seven percent since 2009, and is now back at a level first reached in 1988."
http://www.forbes...-for-it/
Modernmystic
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 03, 2014
"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
― Winston Churchill
Scottingham
3.5 / 5 (10) Jan 03, 2014
Funny that everybody is bitching about taxes but not the record high percentage of money going to <1000 people in this country. If anything, that fact alone says we're boned. When a factory needs 6 people to do what used to take 6000, we're boned. The service/retail economy is an unstable illusion, not a solution.

Unless there's some basic income (or similar idea/philosophy) headed our way....I don't see how we're going to get through this. The days where it should be required of somebody to work for a living lest they go without food and housing should be coming to a close, given our technology.

Or, you know, fuck em! Right guys?!
Modernmystic
3.4 / 5 (7) Jan 03, 2014
Unless there's some basic income (or similar idea/philosophy) headed our way....I don't see how we're going to get through this.


3d printing, molecular manufacturing, mature nanotechnology, everyone owning their own means of production.

It sure isn't going to be solved by policy wonks and more taxes...we've tried that, then re-tried it, tried it again about six different ways, then tried it, after that we tried it bigger, tried it smaller, and then tried it again....

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Albert Einstein
Shakescene21
3.1 / 5 (7) Jan 03, 2014
This survey only covered Americans. If they had surveyed Chinese people, the results would have been overwhelmingly positive. While America has stagnated , hundreds of millions of Chinese have been lifted from poverty. China's GDP will shortly pass America's on a PPP basis, and it's realistic to expect Chinese living standards to equal ours in another generation. And look at all the Chinese stuff we can buy at Walmart!
Modernmystic
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
This survey only covered Americans. If they had surveyed Chinese people, the results would have been overwhelmingly positive. While America has stagnated , hundreds of millions of Chinese have been lifted from poverty. China's GDP will shortly pass America's on a PPP basis, and it's realistic to expect Chinese living standards to equal ours in another generation. And look at all the Chinese stuff we can buy at Walmart!


Long live capitalism ;)
Shakescene21
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
Long live capitalism ;)

@Modernmystic -- Mao might just have been the best friend of the American middle class -- by keeping China economically isolated from the global economy.
billpress11
2 / 5 (6) Jan 03, 2014
" Let's see what Copernicus said:

"But if such persons will only consider the common good [communis utilitas], they certainly will not deny that an excellent currency is good not only for the state but for themselves and all classes of people, and that cheap money is harmful. The truth of this is clear, not only for many other reasons but especially thanks to that wise teacher, experience: we see countries that have good money flourishing most of all, and those with poor money declining and perishing…."

Very true Rygg2 and your claim that "trade deficits don't matter" is a major reason for the decline of American power and prestige. Trade deficits for the last 35 years or so has gutted Middle Class in this country and created most of our huge internal deficits.
billpress11
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014

"We are forty-two years into our own experiment in funny money. During that time, even according to comically rosy government statistics, the median male full-time income has stagnated. Median household "real" income has fallen seven percent since 2009, and is now back at a level first reached in 1988."
http://www.forbes...-for-it/

Forbes and you free traders are the major reason "funny money" had to be created in the first place. If it wasn't being created we would be in a depression that would have made the "Great One" look like a walk in the park.
no fate
2.3 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014

"We are forty-two years into our own experiment in funny money. During that time, even according to comically rosy government statistics, the median male full-time income has stagnated. Median household "real" income has fallen seven percent since 2009, and is now back at a level first reached in 1988."
http://www.forbes...-for-it/

Forbes and you free traders are the major reason "funny money" had to be created in the first place. If it wasn't being created we would be in a depression that would have made the "Great One" look like a walk in the park.


That writing has been on the wall for 10 years, and it keeps bleeding through every attempt to whitewash it. But as long as everyone keeps looking the other way it will still be a surprise when it hits.
billpress11
3.7 / 5 (7) Jan 03, 2014
Fiscal conservatism is good. I am one of those. But what you social conservatives cannot seem to comprehend is that you are YOUR ON WORSE ENEMY. Many of your conservative policies (abortion for one) are creating the ever growing need for taxes and government controls.

This country (US) has been on a slow spiral downward ever since the late 70's when you were able to forbid the US welfare dept. from paying the poor to get abortions. (The Hyde Amendment)

China doesn't appear to have this problem, nor does Germany. Birth control and abortions are FREE or nearly so those countries. Of course both of those countries also run trade surpluses.

Modernmystic
3 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
China doesn't appear to have this problem, nor does Germany. Birth control and abortions are FREE or nearly so those countries. Of course both of those countries also run trade surpluses.


I would describe myself as socially quite liberal, however I wouldn't use China's autocratic one child system as a bastion of social engineering. That society is absolutely going to implode when they have one person in the workforce for every two not working. It's going to be an internal collapse of a society of more than a billion people on a scale the likes of which the planet has never before seen. China is its own worst enemy...
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jan 03, 2014
"It's taking away our free choice and human thought," she says. "And there's potential for government to control and regulate what this artificial intelligence thinks."

-Like any animal, humans do not like confinement. It is an instinctive thing. Thats our problem woith death - it reminds us we are in a cage. But we also feel constrained by physical laws which do not care if they make us suffer or not. This is probably a strong component of the wish for a superbeing who will suspend them from time to time just for us.

We especially resent constraints put on us by other humans, even if these are for our own good. People resent speed limits and taxes and such. But at least when it is people who are enforcing these laws there is the chance of talking our way out of a ticket or finding a loophole. This represents a way out of the cage.
cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (2) Jan 03, 2014
Not so with machines. They have the potential to be more uniformly equitable and just than any judge or police officer, because we can program them with our best standards and rely on them to adhere to them unerringly. But people resent this surrender of the freedom to cheat, to escape, to expect deferential treatment because after all all we are worth it.

People like the idea of liberty and justice for all just so long as they have the chance to get a little more of it for themselves, their family, and their tribe. AI will prevent this from happening. In the surveilled world, crime will be impossible. And this is what people hate and fear most about the prospect.

Domestications a bitch. But get used to it. AI will have the potential to identify noncomformists and malcontents as never before, and treatment will be mandatory. Everybody will live under some form of restraint. It is the way we live now but the bars are not as visible as they will soon be.
MR166
4 / 5 (2) Jan 03, 2014
"Funny that everybody is bitching about taxes but not the record high percentage of money going to <1000 people in this country."

And how do you think that happened???? Are there not enough government regulations or too many government regulations and who is benefiting from these regulations??? THAT is the question that we must all ask ourselves.
RealScience
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
Domestications a bitch. But get used to it. AI will have the potential to identify noncomformists and malcontents as never before, and treatment will be mandatory.


All progress since our ancestors were pond-scum has been based on non-conformists.
You can be a domesticated sheep of machines if you want, GhostofOtto, but PLEASE don't try to force that on others. "Treatment will be mandatory" reminds me of the worst of the old Soviet union.

ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
e record high percentage of money going to <1000 people in this country

How about the billions going to pay people NOT to work?
In MA, EBT cards are issued to illegal aliens and when a republican legislator wants to find why the democrat agency funds illegal aliens, and the Boston bombers, democrats don't care, because 'liberals' NEED a dependent class.
This dispirits not only those who work and earn, but it also creates a dispirited dependent class, just like so many Native Americans who have been wards of the state for generations.
The only group who is trying to stop this are conservatives, like tea parties. And 'liberals' call them 'extreme' for trying to really help people keep their dignity and self worth by working, earning and keeping what they earn.
MR166
3 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
RYG as my uncle once said " There is a lot of money to be made in Poverty"!!!!!!!!!!!!!
billpress11
1.7 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
You bring up a good point Modernmystic but China has recently relaxed their one child policy.

I wouldn't worry about the future of China, they have been running a trade surplus with the US of several 100 billion dollars for years. So we may be supporting their old retirees by working our asses off to pay back that money.

Oh, but if that is the case who will be supporting our surplus of Baby Boomer retirees just now entering into their retirement years?
billpress11
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
Quote Rygg2: "How about the billions going to pay people NOT to work?
In MA, EBT cards are issued to illegal aliens and when a republican legislator wants to find why the democrat agency funds illegal aliens, and the Boston bombers, democrats don't care, because 'liberals' NEED a dependent class."

The free traders don't worry about exporting the work that most of the poor could and are willing to do. They apparently think it is cheaper to pay them to do nothing and by borrowing the money from the countries they sent the work to. Apparently they even think it is better to print more "funny money."

The liberals do not want a dependent class half as much as the conservatives need and want a class of workers who are forced to work for NO minimum wage, little or no work place safety rules and then force them to compete with the lowest paid workers in the world in order to feed themselves and their families.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
The liberals do not want a dependent class

Then why have they created one?

forced to work for NO minimum wage,

Why work when the 'liberals' pay more NOT to work?

The only ones opposed to amnesty and flooding the country with low skilled workers from Mexico and Central American are conservatives.
They are opposed for many reasons: rule of law; they will take jobs away from American workers, especially working minorities; they will likely vote legally, or illegally, for more 'liberals'.
I challenge 'liberals' to reform immigration to allow ALL who can be hired to be allowed to immigrate to include those from English speaking countries like India, Philippines, Taiwan, and all others. But they would not be eligible for any federal welfare. And citizenship rules must be changed so being born within the US does not grant citizenship, in line with most of the RoW.
billpress11
3.2 / 5 (5) Jan 03, 2014
The liberals do not want a dependent class

Then why have they created one?

forced to work for NO minimum wage,

Why work when the 'liberals' pay more NOT to work?


The liberals did not create the dependent class. The conservative free traders did.
If the minimum wage was higher AND more jobs were brought back into this country more of the poor would get off their asses and go to work.

The conservatives NEED a large dependent class of people to drive down wages rates so they can have the vacation homes.

NO family, city, state or country can remain sovereign by consuming more than it produces indefinitely! The US has consumed about $10 trillion more than it has produced over the last 35 or so years. We have been paying the price with huge internal deficits and the printing of "funny money".
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
The liberals did not create the dependent class.

Of course they did.
billpress11
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
Rygg2, I will agree with you that our emigration laws leave a lot to be desired. We do not need more grape pickers or worker in meat packing plants. What is needed is higher wage rates for those types of jobs. Conservatives should love this because it follows the "old law of supply and demand".

But, we should welcome the educated ones who would add to our standard of living.
billpress11
2.5 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
The liberals did not create the dependent class.

Of course they did.

Wrong again Rygg2. What creates the dependent class is making it more difficult for families to control the number of children they have by not providing them with FREE birth control and abortion when and if needed.
By constantly cutting back on education funding.
By sending jobs they could be doing overseas to increase the profits of big corporations.
Etc..
billpress11
1 / 5 (2) Jan 03, 2014
Double posting deleted.
MR166
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
Billpress11 by saying that a person cannot limit their family size without the help of the government you are just adding to the problem. Perhaps the government should just stop paying for each child as if it were a cash crop.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
The liberals did not create the dependent class.

Of course they did.

Wrong again Rygg2. What creates the dependent class is making it more difficult for families to control the number of children they have by not providing them with FREE birth control and abortion when and if needed.
By constantly cutting back on education funding.
By sending jobs they could be doing overseas to increase the profits of big corporations.
Etc..

More socialist BS!
billpress11
2.3 / 5 (6) Jan 03, 2014
Billpress11 by saying that a person cannot limit their family size without the help of the government you are just adding to the problem. Perhaps the government should just stop paying for each child as if it were a cash crop.

You bring up a valid point, also our tax laws should not reward large families. I am in no way saying a person cannot limit their family size without government help. But the ignorant ones that should limit their family size NEED government help and more to limit the number of their offspring.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
What is needed is higher wage rates for those types of jobs

Then you don't mind paying more for ...everything.
Oh, wait, that's what food stamps and welfare are for.

I recently read where robots are being created to pick strawberries.
Not too long ago in northwest Washington, kids used to pick strawberries for extra money in the summer, along with migrant workers. But the supply of pickers dwindled to the point where the growers switched to raspberries that can be picked by machine.
Too few Americans are willing to work hard in a field, especially the young.
billpress11
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
What is needed is higher wage rates for those types of jobs

Then you don't mind paying more for ...everything.
Oh, wait, that's what food stamps and welfare are for.

I recently read where robots are being created to pick strawberries.
Not too long ago in northwest Washington, kids used to pick strawberries for extra money in the summer, along with migrant workers. But the supply of pickers dwindled to the point where the growers switched to raspberries that can be picked by machine.
Too few Americans are willing to work hard in a field, especially the young.

Its the "old law of supply and demand" that should determine wage rates for jobs nobody seems to want. There is NOTHING wrong with automation, it takes jobs BUT also creates jobs while at the SAME raising EVERY ones standard of living. It is a win win!

And NO Rygg2, I am more than willing to pay more for my berries for the right to live in the BEST country in the world. The question is are YOU??
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
"Policymakers should see this decline in geographic mobility as a major problem and a key contributor to America's persistently high unemployment rates. In our woeful labor market, Americans in search of work should be encouraged to pursue it wherever it may be found, and to be willing to move in search of a better life."
"This decline in Americans' geographic mobility has correlated with a well-documented 40-year trend of falling income mobility. While this correlation does not, by itself, prove a causal link, the evidence that geographic mobility can mitigate poverty is robust."
"So what is keeping the poor from moving their families to new places to take advantage of better opportunities?

The answer lies primarily in the structure of poverty-relief programs. For the last 70 years, the social-services agenda has been dominated by what might be called "place-based" poverty relief. "
http://www.nation...-to-work
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
"But decades of bipartisan experience with place-based poverty relief have demonstrated that it simply has not worked. In 1965, the year after Lyndon Johnson declared a War on Poverty, the poverty rate was 17.3%, and since 1967 poverty rates have fluctuated between 11% and 15%. The poverty rate in 2012 was 15.0% for the third year in a row — just two percentage points lower than in 1965, the first full year of the War on Poverty."
http://www.nation...-to-work

I didn't see anything in the story about how politicians don't want people to leave their districts and that local govts don't either as much of their federal funding is based upon population.
billpress11
3 / 5 (5) Jan 03, 2014
Quote Rygg2: ""So what is keeping the poor from moving their families to new places to take advantage of better opportunities?"

Family and Money, number one and two!
billpress11
2.3 / 5 (4) Jan 03, 2014
"But decades of bipartisan experience with place-based poverty relief have demonstrated that it simply has not worked. In 1965, the year after Lyndon Johnson declared a War on Poverty, the poverty rate was 17.3%, and since 1967 poverty rates have fluctuated between 11% and 15%. The poverty rate in 2012 was 15.0% for the third year in a row — just two percentage points lower than in 1965, the first full year of the War on Poverty."
http://www.nation...-to-work

I didn't see anything in the story about how politicians don't want people to leave their districts and that local govts don't either as much of their federal funding is based upon population.

I agree the war on poverty hasn't worked and it WILL NOT work as long as you conservative place more emphasis on restricting their access to FREE birth control and abortions than creating a WPA type work program for them. Period!!
billpress11
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 03, 2014
And NO Rygg2, I am more than willing to pay more for my berries for the right to live in the BEST country in the world. The question is are YOU??

Apparently you are not.
Returners
1 / 5 (2) Jan 03, 2014
China doesn't appear to have this problem, nor does Germany. Birth control and abortions are FREE or nearly so those countries. Of course both of those countries also run trade surpluses.


Both of those countries also have a RECENT history of massacring those deemed "less than human," and by "Recent" I mean some of the perps are still alive.
Returners
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 03, 2014
The poverty rate in 2012 was 15.0% for the third year in a row — just two percentage points lower than in 1965, the first full year of the War on Poverty."
http://www.nation...-to-work


The Bush tax cuts, in addition to bankrupting the U.S. government, allowed the profanely wealthy to further centralize their own wealth and control of the economy, and at everyone else's expense.

In addition, Bush, along with Colin Powell, sold everybody a war in Iraq, based on inaccurate intelligence. They implemented a "strategy," which they got off a cereal box, to "democratize" Iraq and Afghanistan, neither of which wanted democracy.

the result? Afghanistan has a new dictator, who gets to fix elections with U.S. approval, which is exactly what Saddam was in Iraq to begin with.

We seem to have killed relatively few terrorists in the past 12 years though, in spite of doubling the Federal debt during that time, mostly on military spending...
billpress11
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
Returners, I totally agree with your second posting so I gave you a 5 star rating!
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
Bush tax cuts are NOW the Obama tax cuts.
Obama owns this economy after squandering a 'liberal' majority to force Obamacare taxes on everyone.
Obama is a conservative? Since when?
MR166
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
If you are going to post about government debt at least be unbiased. Obama's deficit spending is FAR greater than Bush's.......

Also, the FED has purchased TRILLIONS worth of bonds and stocks in order to support the economy. This did not happen under Bush. There has never been a nation that has "Printed" it's way to prosperity. You print your way to runaway inflation were wages never keep up.
billpress11
2.7 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
No, Bush tax cuts are still not Obama's tax cuts and they never will be. Gees, you should be glad that Obama was forced to extend some of the Bush tax cuts.

After all didn't your tea party types WANT ALL of the Bush tax cuts extended??
billpress11
3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
MR166, the worst yearly federal budget deficit was in 2009. The 2009 budget STARTED Oct. 1, 2008 when Bush was still president. So he is almost entirely to be blamed for this $1.5 trillion deficit.

The link below shows that the yearly budget deficit since Obama became president have been reduced by MORE than 50%. Thank you Mr. Obama.
http://www.davema...ates.php

As for the need to print money, well that is mainly the end result of 35 years of trade deficits. After not all of the money we export overseas come back to buy our government bonds.

In fact many in not MOST of the companies that have moved manufacturing overseas leave much of the profits made overseas, overseas to avoid paying taxes on those profits. To make matter even worse much of their total profits are being transferred overseas by the pricing structure they use for inter-company charges.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 04, 2014
Bush tax cuts are still not Obama's tax cuts

Obama didn't change them when he had the opportunity.
Obama and the 'liberals' own this welfare state.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
"The one-for-you, three-for-me taxman thievery is being done supposedly to plug France's budget hole, which has soared in the past few years as the size of government has expanded.

It's a ridiculous assumption, given that the rich are more mobile than other taxpayers and will simply exit the country, taking their energy, ideas and investment capital with them and leaving France to wallow in debt and bureaucracy.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.inves...pRfyDkVo
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 04, 2014
"Globalization has been an ally of taxpayers. Because it is increasingly easy for jobs and capital to cross borders, politicians are being forced to eliminate or reduce taxes that penalize productive behavior."
"Switzerland and Monaco seem to be the favored destinations of Sweden's tax exiles. At least the new government recognizes the damage caused by punitive tax rates. The wealth tax is being abolished in an effort to lure talented entrepreneur and capital back to Sweden:"
http://www.cato.o...alth-tax
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
All progress since our ancestors were pond-scum has been based on non-conformists
-You mean like genghis khan or Jesus? They only made it easier to manage the herd. "Thy rod (punishment) and thy staff (control) they comfort me."
You can be a domesticated sheep of machines if you want, GhostofOtto, but PLEASE don't try to force that on others. "Treatment will be mandatory" reminds me of the worst of the old Soviet union
Treatment is already mandatory dear ungulate. If you break the law you will be incarcerated. If you smoke your employment options are limited. If you get caught drunk driving your insurance rates skyrocket. Default on a loan and your credit rating plummets. Stop working or mismanage your money and you're on the street. Causality treats us.

You are already guided by rod and staff. I want to be out of the cage probably more than you. But let me warn you, domesticates do not do well in the wild. Macaws return to their cages because they know better.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
Just look how hard poor ryggy struggles to get out of the box. "If it weren't for all these other. -people!- I could live life the way I want. If they're not smart enough or industrious enough to compete against me, then let them starve! It is the way of nature."

-No the way of the natural human is to work for the good of the tribe. Everyone works in support of the tribe but everyone sacrifices as well. Ryggys tribe exists only in his mind.

If you hoard in the tribe ryggy the chief will come and take your stuff away from you and distribute it equitably. You contribute willingly or you will be forced to contribute and you will have to sit far away from the fire where it is cold and the wolves lurk.
RealScience
5 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
@otto - your original post referred to non-conformists and malcontents, and your more recent post refers to people who use force, deceit or carelessness to impose their view on others. And you haven't said whether you see this as a good thing or merely an inevitable one.

Please state whether your view is that AI enforcement is a good thing, an inevitable thing, or both. Also, is such AI enforcement is of the "your right to swing your fist stops where someone else's nose begin" kind that your most recent post hints at, or whether such AI will/should enforce the much more strict "if you don't voluntarily do what the AI decides is best for you to do, then the AI will force you to do it" kind.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (4) Jan 04, 2014
"The chief of today's Climate Deniers is President Obama, whose second term will end up being "all about Climate Change." Despite all this good climate news, Obama still intends to circumvent Congress and use the Tyranny of the Bureaucracy to strangle the kind of industries that create solid middle class jobs. But don't worry, while Obama is killing good-paying energy jobs he will be rescuing us from income inequality that good paying energy jobs would help to solve. "
http://www.breitb...-deniers
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 04, 2014
Regarding non-conformists:
You mean like genghis khan or Jesus? They only made it easier to manage the herd. "Thy rod (punishment) and thy staff (control) they comfort me."

No, I was referring to the first cells that tolerated what are now mitochondria and chloroplasts instead of killing them, to the first of our ancestors to pick up and use a burning stick rather than running from fire, to the first to carefully bury the best seeds rather than eating them, and all of the billions of minor cases where some creature (whether through genes, epigenetics or neurons) did not conform to do what its ancestors had done. I'm referring to evolution learning to use "mistakes" instead of relentlessly pursuing perfect copies.

Returners
3 / 5 (4) Jan 04, 2014
If you are going to post about government debt at least be unbiased. Obama's deficit spending is FAR greater than Bush's.......


In Obama's defense, he inherited an economy which was worthless compared to when Bush started in office.

Also, the FED has purchased TRILLIONS worth of bonds and stocks in order to support the economy. This did not happen under Bush.


Actually, TARP, which was the first buyout/bailout, was promoted and implemented under Bush.

Obama followed suit, because there was no other obvious course of action, and once they'd bailed out several companies already, it was no longer "fair" to deny buying/bailing out the others.

Weren't you going on about equal treatment under the law earlier?

There has never been a nation that has "Printed" it's way to prosperity. You print your way to runaway inflation were wages never keep up.


That's technically a different issue, since it's been on-going since the beginning of the paper standard.
Returners
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
-You mean like genghis khan or Jesus?


You shouldn't compare genghis khan to Jesus. Khan was a mass murderer and a confirmed mass rapist.

There isn't a single shred of evidence, not even a claim, to suggest that Jesus physically harmed anyone, ever, in any way, with the only exception POSSIBLY being the "Cleansing of the Temple," and it's not exactly clear whether or not he used the whip on the corrupt priests and money changers. Even if he did hit any of them, nobody was injured.

It's entirely inappropriate to lump these two names on the same side of such a comparison. They are polar opposites.
Zephir_fan
Jan 04, 2014
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Cocoa
4.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
I think it is very understandable that Americans are pessimistic. You just have to look at the very broken political system to see why people may have trouble seeing a bright future. I am very optimistic - but try real hard to focus on reality - and leave the fearmongering to the politicians, and the media. Any day on Physorg gives me reason for optimism - as we learn to understand and manipulate the universe. Of course reading the comments section could torpedo that optimism. It is very interesting to me that one of the dominant ideologies here (Conservatism) seems very dependent on fear and negativism. I am not taking sides - at least the Conservatives have a definable philosophy. There is no real 'Left' here in America - and the Dems seem lost in the wilderness. Just listen to Rush, or Sarah, or Glen (really just turn of Fox news) to understand how much fear and negativism they run on.

Time to read some more science articles - I need a pick up.
Cocoa
4.7 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
"Well you finally got one right Skippy. One was a real person. The other one not so much. It's hard to put an mythological person on the same side as a real person."

Watch your mouth pal. Megan Kelly has a bona fide photograph of Jesus - and he is white....
VENDItardE
1 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014

"We are forty-two years into our own experiment in funny money. During that time, even according to comically rosy government statistics, the median male full-time income has stagnated. Median household "real" income has fallen seven percent since 2009, and is now back at a level first reached in 1988."
http://www.forbes...-for-it/

Forbes and you free traders are the major reason "funny money" had to be created in the first place. If it wasn't being created we would be in a depression that would have made the "Great One" look like a walk in the park.


funny money has supported and grown the welfare system, moron.
billpress11
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
Rygg2, the major problem facing the French economy is the same one is facing the US, a LARGE and persistent trade deficit. It is not their 75% income tax rate. Any one who would leave their country of origin because of a high tax rate is an ordinary greedy TRAITOR.
http://www.tradin...of-trade

As for trade being good, well yes it can be a good thing, especially for the countries running trade surpluses. It is not good for any country running decades long trade deficits like the US.

NO family,city,state or country can remain sovereign if it consumes more than it produces indefinitely! There is NO way around that fact Rygg2.
Cocoa
5 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
"funny money has supported and grown the welfare system, moron."

And the largest military in the universe - and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - and the exploration of the moon - it is called government spending. As the economy improves, jobs are created, and less funny money is needed - I guess we need to thank the current administration for creating back the jobs that the previous administration destroyed.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 04, 2014
NO family,city,state or country can remain sovereign if it consumes more than it produces

Depends upon what is produced.
What does Singapore produce?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Jan 04, 2014
Why do 'liberals' want to destroy jobs in the USA?

"Obama's War on Coal Has Run Amok"
http://www.realcl...263.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
"

The Chamber of Commerce is gearing up to spend $50 million to try to crush the Tea Party, largely because the movement has been successful in stopping amnesty, which President Barack Obama said was his biggest goal of 2013. Industries and interests on the left and right have spent millions in efforts to get amnesty enacted. Karl Rove's groups are also reloading against the Tea Party. And they are doing so to make it easier to pass an amnesty bill that the Congressional Budget Office determined would lower the wages of working-class Americans."
http://www.breitb...-in-2014

How do all you 'liberals' like being on the same side as 'big business' and crony capitalist Republicans and big time DC lobbyists?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
"Government is often a cash cow for high-tech industries in Washington. And in turn, the high-tech industries hire K-Street lobbyists to make government more profitable for them. For instance, Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us group has vowed to spend at least $50 million to get amnesty passed because he desperately wants the pathway to citizenship provision that would legalize all of the country's illegal immigrants and more high-tech visas to flood the labor market with foreign workers. The group has hired prominent members of the permanent political class from both sides, including Republicans like Dan Senor and Rob Jesmer, and paid them well to promote and get amnesty enacted even though the claim of a high-tech worker shortage is a myth. "
http://www.breitb...-in-2014
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
Please state whether your view is that AI enforcement is a good thing, an inevitable thing, or both
The people living in the surveilled world will appreciate it as much as we do living protected by cops and armies. Only more so.
Also, is such AI enforcement is of the "blahblah kind that your most recent post hints at, or whether such AI will/should enforce the much more strict "if you don't voluntarily do blah
You already know it is best if you pay your taxes. If you don't pay your taxes you go to jail. The only reason you prefer a human to send you there, is the chance you and your greasy lawyer can talk your way out of it.

There will be no greasy lawyers in the future. At some point AI will sweep our vast store of knowledge and law clean of all the bullshit inserted there by greasy lawyers and politicians and priests and charlatans of all types.

Bullshit will also be impossible in the future which is why the people then will love it so much. Causality is peace .
billpress11
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
NO family,city,state or country can remain sovereign if it consumes more than it produces

Depends upon what is produced.
What does Singapore produce?

You must really be dense, production is not just in material things it is also in services.
billpress11
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
Why do 'liberals' want to destroy jobs in the USA?

"Obama's War on Coal Has Run Amok"
http://www.realcl...263.html

This actually does not destroy jobs, they are just re-created in cleaner sources of energy. I you really that dense?
billpress11
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
"

The Chamber of Commerce is gearing up to spend $50 million to try to crush the Tea Party, largely because the movement has been successful in stopping amnesty, which President Barack Obama said was his biggest goal of 2013. Industries and interests on the left and right have spent millions in efforts to get amnesty enacted. Karl Rove's groups are also reloading against the Tea Party. And they are doing so to make it easier to pass an amnesty bill that the Congressional Budget Office determined would lower the wages of working-class Americans."
http://www.breitb...-in-2014

How do all you 'liberals' like being on the same side as 'big business' and crony capitalist Republicans and big time DC lobbyists?

This is very good news, thank you. Gosh, if Karl Rove keeps up this good work I may just send him a donation. And no most liberals actually like big business.
billpress11
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
"Government is often a cash cow for high-tech industries in Washington. And in turn, the high-tech industries hire K-Street lobbyists to make government more profitable for them. For instance, Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us group has vowed to spend at least $50 million to get amnesty passed because he desperately wants the pathway to citizenship provision that would legalize all of the country's illegal immigrants and more high-tech visas to flood the labor market with foreign workers. The group has hired prominent members of the permanent political class from both sides, including Republicans like Dan Senor and Rob Jesmer, and paid them well to promote and get amnesty enacted even though the claim of a high-tech worker shortage is a myth. "
http://www.breitb...-in-2014

Here you are half right, this country can really use a few more highly trained tech workers.
----continued----
billpress11
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
---continued---
But the need is NOT the main reason these high tech companies want more guest workers. It is actually for the same reason the growers want more berry pickers. It is to drive DOWN wage rates in those industries and keep them from rising.

Here is the same question you asked me about berry prices. Why not let them in? Do you really want to pay MORE for the software you need on your computers and cellphones??
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
And no most liberals actually like big business.
;/q]
Yes, they like businesses that are controlled by the state. It's called fascism.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
Why do 'liberals' want to destroy jobs in the USA?

"Obama's War on Coal Has Run Amok"
http://www.realcl...263.html

This actually does not destroy jobs, they are just re-created in cleaner sources of energy. I you really that dense?

Tell that to the coal miners, trains that haul coal, employees of coal power plants, ....
Most of these were union jobs. Don't piss off the unions.

BTW, how many people work for bankrupt Solyndra or for Fiskers in the USA?
Cocoa
5 / 5 (3) Jan 04, 2014
"Tell that to the coal miners, trains that haul coal, employees of coal power plants, ...."

Many years ago - large cities around the world were illuminated by gas lights. This provided employment opportunities for many - who would walk around the city - lighting the lamps at dusk, and then extinguishing them at dawn. Then someone invented electricity. But wait cried Rygg - think of all the jobs that will be lost...

Fortunately the world moves on - despite those with small minds.

Check out this neat report - showing that 23% of global electricity was generated by renewables in 2012. http://cleantechn...sources/ And shootist said 'they will never be more that a bit player' - smile.
billpress11
3 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
Why do 'liberals' want to destroy jobs in the USA?

"Obama's War on Coal Has Run Amok"
http://www.realcl...263.html

This actually does not destroy jobs, they are just re-created in cleaner sources of energy. I you really that dense?

Tell that to the coal miners, trains that haul coal, employees of coal power plants, ....
Most of these were union jobs. Don't piss off the unions.

BTW, how many people work for bankrupt Solyndra or for Fiskers in the USA?

What about the makers of horse whips when Henry Ford can along?
And don't forget many auto manufactures went bankrupt especially early on. So will many producers of green energy.
When the car companies went bankrupt did we go back to the horse and buggy?
It very unlikely we will ever go back to the good old days when coal was king again either.
Green energy is on the rise, thank goodness!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 04, 2014
What about the makers of horse whips when Henry Ford can along?

The govt didn't subsidize or protect Ford or have an FDA or PETA to force people from using horses.
Ford created a product better, faster and cheaper that customers wanted.

Then someone invented electricity.


No, someone invented an electric lamp, without govt support or hindrance.
There was no FDA forcing cities to stop burning gas for lamps.
As a matter of fact, Rockefeller created a product, kerosene, cleaner and cheaper than his competition for lighting.
Rockefeller lost kerosene market share to Edison's lamp, but found a use for a waste product of kerosene production, gasoline.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 04, 2014
It's amusing to see socialists attempt to use free market creative destruction to justify their fascism.
billpress11
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
The government doesn't subsidize green energy any more than it, to this day, subsidizes the oil industry with tax loopholes. The democrats have tried to get rid of these subsidies.
Yes, it is NOT FUNNY to see the so called champions of the "free markets" refuse to let that happen.

As for the inventions, I don't think you have ANY idea how much of the basic knowledge came from public colleges or government military research. Today a large amount of the advances in medicine, the auto industry and in the computer industries comes from those sources.
Where do you think most of the knowledge that is used in our flat screen TV's and cellphones originated??
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
Where do you think most of the knowledge that is used in our flat screen TV's and cellphones originated??


Westinghouse, T. Peter Brody.

Westinghouse hired Tesla for his AC motor designs.

Westinghouse made his fortune with his rail car braking system.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
From 1981:
"The CRT -- mainstay of television sets, radar screens, and video display terminal of your computer -- obsolete? Yes, says Brody, and to replace it he proposes a new display technology based on thin-film transistors. He and a crew of fellow research scientists nursed the technology along in Westinghouse Electric Corp. laboratories, but they were unable to convince corporate higher-ups to develop it for the marketplace. So Brody formed his own company, Panel-vision, licensed the Westinghouse technology, got venture capital backing, and expects to be making his own 1/8-inch-thick prototypes by the end of this year."
http://www.inc.co...307.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"All the political talk of tackling inequality should warm the hearts of Jets fans. After next month's game in the Meadowlands, it will be 45 years since the team won the Super Bowl, a measure of inequality that cries out for justice.

Oh, the unfairness! There are 32 NFL teams, so, in a utopian world, each team would win the championship once every 32 years. But the Jets haven't won it since 1969 — where have you gone, Joe Namath? Some other teams, including the hated Patriots, are greedy fat cats who win more than their fair share."
"Merit and skill deserve to be highly compensated. Karl Marx notwithstanding, there always are winners and losers. No system anywhere has succeeded in guaranteeing equal outcomes, including the "everybody gets a trophy" movement among social busybodies."
http://nypost.com...atch-22/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"New EPA regulations will take out 10% of all electricity produced by plentiful, low cost American coal, according to the Institute for Energy Research. As for the dishonest global warming fantasy, relatively soon the period of no global warming, which started 17 years ago, will be longer then the period of actual global warming, which was a natural cycle that lasted only 20 years, from the late 1970s to the late 1980s. That was preceded by about 30 years of global temperature decline, or global cooling.

Those skyrocketing electricity prices are another loss for the poor too. Under the ultraliberal Barack Obama, and his "progressive" Democrats, poverty has soared while he has been President to nearly 50 million Americans, more than at any other time in the more than 50 years that the Census Bureau has been tracking poverty. "
http://www.forbes...andards/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"Obama has also been the food stamp President, with the number on food stamps increasing during his Administration to an all-time record high of 47.7 million, up 80% over the past 5 years. Contrast that with the Clinton-Gingrich 1996 reform of the old, New Deal, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program. Under those reforms, the number dependent on the old AFDC program declined by two-thirds. Their incomes from going to work instead were documented to increase by 25%, while saving taxpayers 50% of the cost of old AFDC, compared to prior trends. But today's "progressive," Obama/Che Guevara Democrats are not the Kennedy/Clinton Democrats of yore."
http://www.forbes...andards/
billpress11
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"Obama has also been the food stamp President, with the number on food stamps increasing during his Administration to an all-time record high of 47.7 million, up 80% over the past 5 years. Contrast that with the Clinton-Gingrich 1996 reform of the old, New Deal, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) program. Under those reforms, the number dependent on the old AFDC program declined by two-thirds. Their incomes from going to work instead were documented to increase by 25%, while saving taxpayers 50% of the cost of old AFDC, compared to prior trends. But today's "progressive," Obama/Che Guevara Democrats are not the Kennedy/Clinton Democrats of yore."
http://www.forbes...andards/

No that is mainly because of Bush's Great Recession and people like you that have made it difficult for the poor to get birth control and abortions.
Look in the mirror on this one!
billpress11
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
Where do you think most of the knowledge that is used in our flat screen TV's and cellphones originated??


Westinghouse, T. Peter Brody.

Westinghouse hired Tesla for his AC motor designs.

Westinghouse made his fortune with his rail car braking system.

That may be BUT much of the basic research comes from universities and the Federal government.

Flat screen TV's included!

http://en.wikiped...nstitute

Quote from article: "
The Glenn H. Brown Liquid Crystal Institute (LCI) at Kent State University is a center of study for liquid crystal technology and education, blending basic and applied research on liquid crystals. This approach has resulted in technological advances and new applications such as display tablets, optical shutters, variable transmission windows, projection display devices, and flexible displays. Established in 1965, the institute is now directed by Dr.Hiroshi Yokoyama and is housed at KSU's Liquid Crystal and Materials- -
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"According to Bloomberg, more than 2% of China's land is no longer usable due to pollution deposits from many government-owned industrial projects."
http://www.breitb...Concerns
'Liberals' demand MORE socialism?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"The change in student loans was part of Obamacare — and why was it part of Obamacare?" McCluskey said in an exclusive interview with The Daily Caller. "So that the profit they were supposedly making from the student loans could then be plugged into how much money would come from Obamacare, so it didn't look like it cost as much."

In the last days of Obamacare's formulation, the projections had student loans folded into them to make them not seem so expensive.

"At the last minute, they said, 'Look, let's take what was then called the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act, make it part of healthcare and then we can make the budget numbers come out right… [W]e will take these projected profits from the student loans, and we will say that's part of Obamacare.'"

Read more: http://dailycalle...pXZMiDwZ
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"Scientists try using color-changing cholesteric compounds as temperature sensors. In March 1960 James Fergason and two colleagues at Westinghouse Electric Corp., in Pittsburgh, apply for a U.S. patent for "thermal imaging devices utilizing a cholesteric liquid crystalline phase material." "
"March 1, 1965
RCA Creates LCD Group

George Heilmeier convinces RCA managers to create a dedicated LCD research group in Princeton, N.J. "
http://spectrum.i...-display

What did the federal govt have to do with LCDs other than be a customer?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"It all began in 1888, when Austrian scientist Friedrich Reinitzer discovered liquid crystal. However, it would be many decades before this material found a practical application in electronic displays. (The first LCD prototype, a digital clock from RCA, was not invented until 1968, and the first active matrix LCD TV, a pocket television from Seiko Epson, did not arrive until 1984.)

In the meantime, the birth of television was changing the world. German scientist Karl Braun invented the cathode-ray tube (CRT) in 1897, and television made its public debut in the U.S. at the 1939 World's Fair. In 1947, Corning invented the process to mass-produce glass picture tubes, making television affordable for the public. The following year, 1 million sets were sold in the U.S."
http://www.cornin...ory.aspx
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
@Otto: You assume that the AI running the show has the best interests of people at heart. If there are still humans directing the AI, then the past shows that those humans will direct it for their personal interests, not those of humanity as a whole. And if the AI is in charge, how can you be sure that it will continue to care about humans at all?

If the AI's roots are in the common-law system as evolved by juries, with innocence assumed until proven guilty, a right to see and contest the evidence, and better to let ten guilty go free than to hang an innocent man, then the odds are good that fairness, justice and respect for individuals will be deeply embedded in the AI.

But if the AI's roots are in the NSA/CIA's everyone-is-a-suspect, secret courts with hidden evidence, mass-warrant surveillance, use of torture, assassinations with no trial, and end-justifies-the-means programs, then the future is bleak, not rosy.

Do you see the difference?
Do you still support the NSA?
skippy_skippys
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
There isn't a single shred of evidence, not even a claim, to suggest that Jesus physically


Existed.

It's entirely inappropriate to lump these two names on the same side of such a comparison. They are polar opposites.


Well you finally got one right Skippy. One was a real person. The other one not so much. It's hard to put an mythological person on the same side as a real person.


Are idiot trolls real persons?
Zephir_fan
Jan 05, 2014
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
billpress11
not rated yet Jan 05, 2014
"Scientists try using color-changing cholesteric compounds as temperature sensors. In March 1960 James Fergason and two colleagues at Westinghouse Electric Corp., in Pittsburgh, apply for a U.S. patent for "thermal imaging devices utilizing a cholesteric liquid crystalline phase material." "
"March 1, 1965
RCA Creates LCD Group

George Heilmeier convinces RCA managers to create a dedicated LCD research group in Princeton, N.J. "
http://spectrum.i...-display

What did the federal govt have to do with LCDs other than be a customer?

The newest TV's, Ipads, cellphones use LED technology. Thank you. And yes Kent State University is a pioneer in this technology. Kent State is a state funded university.
skippy_skippys
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
There isn't a single shred of evidence, not even a claim, to suggest that Jesus physically


Existed.

It's entirely inappropriate to lump these two names on the same side of such a comparison. They are polar opposites.


Well you finally got one right Skippy. One was a real person. The other one not so much. It's hard to put an mythological person on the same side as a real person.


Are idiot trolls real persons?


It's a sad thing yes mon ami? But I'm afraid that they are. Welcome aboard, I really needed some help with these morons.


But it be you who is the moron troll, skippy ira. Don't you know it already? You should change your name to "the Dunning-Kruger effect", ira skippy, as you's be good at it.
billpress11
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
Besides, I never said private industry had nothing to with the advances in technology. What you are also overlooking is that the government contracts out to private companies a lot of research dollars. The space program has help make major advances in technology. Besides you have no way of knowing how much of, if any of those patents you mention were the result of SEED money from the Federal government.

http://en.wikiped...nstitute

Quote from article: "
The Glenn H. Brown Liquid Crystal Institute (LCI) at Kent State University is a center of study for liquid crystal technology and education, blending basic and applied research on liquid crystals. This approach has resulted in technological advances and new applications such as display tablets, optical shutters, variable transmission windows, projection display devices, and flexible displays. Established in 1965, the institute is now directed by Dr.Hiroshi Yokoyama and is housed - -
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
never said private industry had nothing to with the advances in technology

You said that without the US govt funded research, flat screen TVs would not exist.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
""For me, the class-warfare slogans were just enough to keep me at home," he explained, adding that he'll never do that again.

"Wall Street boomed under Obama, Washington is still at a stalemate, and the economy is still at a standstill. It was all a crock."

Class warfare has been a potent campaign tactic in the Obama era, a great motivator to keep voters at home in big elections. Approximately 6 million eligible white voters and 1.5 million eligible nonwhite voters didn't vote in 2012, calculated by the baseline of 2008's turnout. (The 2008 election was about inspirational "hope and change," while 2012 was divisional — "us" versus "them.")"
"It will be a tough sell to harp about income inequality when the rich got richer and the poor got poorer under this administration.

Besides, such sloganeering sounds an awful lot like income redistribution."

Read more: http://www.realcl...pYLUJGUd
Follo
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jan 05, 2014
If there are still humans directing the AI, then the past shows that those humans will direct it for their personal interests, not those of humanity as a whole
Well thats bullshit and Ill tell you why.

The laws we have devised are by and large the sum total of the best interests of the people. They have been enacted, tested, revised, and implemented, all in light of the people. And they work pretty well, as evinced by the overwhelming acceptance by the people.

AI has the potential of combing through them and making them better, more efficient, more logical. So it stands to reason that they will be what the people want.

Your opinion also originates with the artists, lawyers, priests, philos and such rabble who stand to lose most from this holy cleansing. They are playing to your fear of the cage.

Dont be a dupe, a fashion whore. Use what is left of your brain and see that we design our machines to exceed us. They are better than us because we design them to be.
billpress11
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
never said private industry had nothing to with the advances in technology

You said that without the US govt funded research, flat screen TVs would not exist.


Here it is again, I did NOT say "without the US govt research, flat screen TV's would not exist."

I said:
"That may be BUT much of the basic research comes from universities and the Federal government.

Flat screen TV's included!"

billpress11
3 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
Quote Rygg2: "Class warfare has been a potent campaign tactic in the Obama era, a great motivator to keep voters at home in big elections. Approximately 6 million eligible white voters and 1.5 million eligible nonwhite voters didn't vote in 2012, calculated by the baseline of 2008's turnout. (The 2008 election was about inspirational "hope and change," while 2012 was divisional — "us" versus "them.")"
"It will be a tough sell to harp about income inequality when the rich got richer and the poor got poorer under this administration."

You should replace the word Obama with the republicans. After all they are the party of race bating, fear mongering, gender discriminating women haters.

As the low voting turnout , which party has been constantly making it more difficult to register to vote???

And you are correct, the rich are STILL getting richer and the poor poorer. You can blame most of that on Reagan's union busting and the Free Traitors, oh, I mean Traders.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
Which party has been enabling voter fraud?
After all they are the party of race bating, fear mongering, gender discriminating women haters.

"On the same show that host Melissa Harris-Perry was forced to apologize for her attack on Mitt Romney's adopted African-American grandson, MSNBC kept up its drumbeat of dealing the race card against its enemies by declaring that the core of tea party is racist. "
http://www.breitb...s-Racist

"surgeon Ben Carson accused white liberal critics of racism.

"They're the most racist people there are," Carson told radio host Mark Levin on Monday. "Because they put you in a little category, a box: 'You have to think this way, how could you dare come off the plantation?'""
http://www.washin...-people/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
""Yes, the Rizzo-Royster race turned on vote fraud," admitted the Kansas City Star's Barbara Shelly in a crow-eating column nearly three years after it would do any good. For years the Star has routinely mocked anyone who dared suggest vote fraud was a problem."

Read more: http://www.americ...pYnBmqEv
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

"The field director for Virginia Democratic Rep. Jim Moran - his son Patrick Moran - has resigned after being secretly recorded seemingly advising a conservative journalist masquerading as a supporter that utility bills could be used to aid in voter fraud."
http://www.cbsnew...d-video/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"Fraudulent registrations, of course, open the door to fraudulent voting, something the left vehemently denies. They deny it because the left depends on voter fraud in order to get left-wing candidates elected. This helps to explain why they bent over backwards in recent years to defend ACORN, the voter fraud empire that filed for bankruptcy on Election Day 2010.

Read more: http://www.americ...pYoLSMdS
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

"Top staffer for Florida Democratic Rep. Garcia resigns amid voting fraud probe"
http://www.foxnew...d-probe/

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"in a 2006 congressional race in southern California between Republican Brian Bilbray and Democrat Francine Busby, Busby told a room full of illegal aliens that they didn't need "papers" — meaning identification — to vote. Thank goodness it was recorded and played on talk radio shows across the nation. Busby lost because she got caught saying what many other Democrats may tell illegal aliens."
""There is no reliable method to determine the number of non-citizens registered or actually voting because most laws to ensure that only citizens vote are ignored, are inadequate, or are systematically undermined by government officials"

http://www.examin...nd-media
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
"Two congressional Democrats who oppose tougher voter ID and voter registration laws told CNSNews.com that such laws are not needed because, they claim, documented voter fraud by illegal aliens is nonexistent. "
" Federal prosecutors have charged 89 individuals and convicted 52 for election-fraud offenses, including giving false voter-registration information."
"in 2000, random checks by the Honolulu city clerk's office found 200 registered voters who admitted they were not U.S. citizens. And in 2004, at least 35 foreign citizens applied for and received voter cards in Harris County, Texas, the report noted. "
"currently 31 states require some form of identification to vote, with eight having strict photo ID requirements "
- See more at: http://cnsnews.co...v04.dpuf
cantdrive85
3 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
Gloomy Americans foresee a downhill slide to 2050

Well, I can't imagine why...
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"Of course, apologies are a way of life for the left-wing MSNBC as of late. Last month, Martin Bashir resigned after asserting that former Governor of Alaska Sarah Palin deserved to a be a repository for human excrement. Adding to that class act, in November Alec Baldwin was fired from his show, Up Late with Alec Baldwin, for screaming at a photographer "c***-s***ing f*****." Aside from MSNBC, Baldwin's epithets did not go over well with gay rights groups either.

In light of all these incidents, MSNBC faces serious credibility issues while it already is struggling with ratings, falling behind CNN and way behind FOX news. Now that MSNBC has lost all appearance of being balanced, these issues will continue to stall any development as a convincing news outlet."
http://www.breitb...andchild
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"Allen West had this to say:

I really feel that it is demeaning to me to think that I need some individual to justify me and my existence. Look, I went through 22 years being in the military, I rose to the rank of Lt. Colonel, I have a bachelor and 2 masters degrees. And for these white liberals to believe they can have this condescending manner toward black conservatives that we need to have approval from our quote unquote, I guess "masters", for us to be able to speak – see that's where the true racism really lies governor is with the white liberals who don't want to see someone such as myself that broke away from their dependency class and is out here and able to possibly contend against them with the policies that they are promoting that's destroying the black community. I know I'm their #1 target and it just emboldens me to speak out even stronger."
http://nation.fox...ves-need
billpress11
3.7 / 5 (3) Jan 05, 2014
Rygg2, your post are getting humorous. Most are now just spout someone opinion, big deal.

The numbers of voter fraud cases you give are small compared to the number of people voting, it is laughable. Show me one election where it made a difference?

As for large numbers of white voters not voting in the last election, well that is their lost.
It is a shame that many are to racist to consider voting for a black man.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
Show me one election where it made a difference?

Kennedy-Nixon; Coleman in MN; Daschle in SD, ....
But the larger point is why do 'liberals' have to cheat? Why are they afraid to ensure all voters are citizens and only vote once in the election?
kochevnik
5 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
Hi Bill. Ryggie is just a LIEbetarian who types a few key words from your post into his LIEbetarian search engine and regurgitates some randomly-associated articles. He can't rebut, only troll. He labels everything he doesn't like as socialism, by his own admission. He has no consistent stance on any topic, other than the stance taken by his search engine. His stance is essentially random beyond hoarding assets and encouraging the bankers and aristocrats to own everything, you nothing, and extracting rents on every conceivable economic activity sphere. He epitomizes why people left Europe for America centuries ago
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
"First order of business for the returning Congress: The No Bailout for Insurance Companies Act of 2014."
"Administration officials can't say it for political reasons. And they don't have to say it because it's already in the Affordable Care Act, buried deep.

First, Section 1341, the "reinsurance" fund collected from insurers and self-insuring employers at a nifty $63 a head. (Who do you think the cost is passed on to?) This yields about $20 billion over three years to cover losses.

Then there is Section 1342, the "risk corridor" provision that mandates a major taxpayer payout covering up to 80 percent of insurance-company losses.

Never heard of these? That's the beauty of passing a bill of such monstrous length. You can insert a chicken soup recipe and no one will notice."
http://www.washin...ory.html
What a surprise! Democrats baling out medical insurance companies.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014

The laws we have devised are by and large the sum total of the best interests of the people. They have been enacted, tested, revised, and implemented, all in light of the people. And they work pretty well, as evinced by the overwhelming acceptance by the people.


@Otto - I'll agree with you as far as the laws produced by the common-law system. And legislatures started out passing relatively reasonable laws as well. The acceptance that most Americans have stems from the laws built in that era.

But unfortunately congress has gone down hill, being taken over by pork-barrel politicians and lobbyists from both democrats and republicans.
I'd hardly call the current ~10% approval rating of congress the "overwhelming acceptance by the people" of our current law makers.
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 05, 2014
@Otto - As for your challenge to:
If there are still humans directing the AI, then the past shows that those humans will direct it for their personal interests, not those of humanity as a whole


Have you forgotten Bush and and Cheney lying to led the U.S. (and other countries) into a war that has had over $1Trillion in direct costs and over $3T in indirect costs? Who benefited from that -the American people or even the Iraqi people?

The main beneficiaries were the oil industry and defense contractors (Halibuton, Blackwater, etc.) who were Bush and Cheney cronies.

If they caused their own country $3 trillion to skim off a mere $30 billion in profits, what make you think that their successors won't direct the AI for personal profit as well?

Open your eye to what has happened just in the past 20 years, even in just the U.S.
And dig through history a bit to discover what leaders can do when they no longer need the support of the governed!
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
@Otto: As for
AI has the potential of combing through them [the laws] and making them better, more efficient, more logical. So it stands to reason that they will be what the people want.


That's what I meant by:
If the AI's roots are in the common-law system as evolved by juries, with innocence assumed until proven guilty, a right to see and contest the evidence, and better to let ten guilty go free than to hang an innocent man, then the odds are good that fairness, justice and respect for individuals will be deeply embedded in the AI.


And I asked if you could see the difference between that and:
But if the AI's roots are in the NSA/CIA's everyone-is-a-suspect, secret courts with hidden evidence, mass-warrant surveillance, use of torture, assassinations with no trial, and end-justifies-the-means programs, then the future is bleak, not rosy.


But you didn't answer, so I'll ask again:

Do you see the difference?
Do you still support the NSA?
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
Your opinion also originates with the artists, lawyers, priests, philos and such rabble ...

First the NSA's AI came for the artists who dared to express anything but adoration for the NSA, but Otto didn't stand up because he considered artists "rabble".
Then the NSA's AI came for the lawyers who stood up for the artists, but Otto didn't stand up because lawyers might point out that his beloved AI was violating the constitution.
Then the AI came for the priests who stood up for other, but Otto didn't stand up because he wasn't religious.
Then the AI came for the philosophers who also stood up, but Otto didn't stand up because he he didn't see the use in thinking ahead.
Then the AI came for the historians, but Otto didn't stand up because he had failed to learn from history.
Then the AI came for Otto. Others stood up for Otto, even though Otto had failed to stand up for them, because standing up for the rights of others is what keeps right safe for us all.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 05, 2014
But unfortunately congress has gone down hill, being taken over by pork-barrel politicians and lobbyists from both democrats and republicans
So I guess we're doomed anyway. Oh well.
Who benefited from that -the American people or even the Iraqi people
Like I say you're a fashion whore. Pops in Islamist lands are growing at unprecedented rates. Fallujah just fell tonal Qaeda did you hear it?

Elsewhere throughout the region people are killing each other at unprecedented rates. So far, because of what we and our allies in the region have done, there is no order, no stability, no caliphate. We compartmentalized the region and prevented this from happening by destroying armies and insurgent forces. So far.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
Then the AI came for Otto. Others stood up for Otto, even though Otto had failed to stand up for them, because standing up for the rights of others is what keeps right safe for us all.
I understand it is fashionable to act like an anarchist. Do you and your friends have pamphlets?
RealScience
5 / 5 (2) Jan 05, 2014
What the hell makes you think that I am an anarchist?

I stay out of politics until someone does something like making a comment implying that people that they disagree with should be subjected to mandatory treatment, even if they have not done anything wrong, and also implies that anyone who objects must be objecting to try to get out of breaking the law.
I stand up for the rights of others, even nonconformists, malcontents, artists, lawyers, priests and philosophers (as long as they don't force their view on others), so I spoke up.

If you'd been an idiot who endlessly posts drivel I wouldn't bother, but you are right often enough on technical subject that I figure that you have a brain and there is hope for you.
But on this issue you are so convinced that there is a holy war coming that you support using evil practices to defend a good cause. The end does NOT justify the means, and a paranoia-based AI is far most dangerous than chicken-shit terrorists.
billpress11
5 / 5 (2) Jan 06, 2014
Show me one election where it made a difference?

Kennedy-Nixon; Coleman in MN; Daschle in SD, ....
But the larger point is why do 'liberals' have to cheat? Why are they afraid to ensure all voters are citizens and only vote once in the election?

Never proven.

But I did forget about the fraud that led to the election of Bush in 2000. Some say it was by the illegal ruling of the Supreme Court. The constitution does not provide for the Supreme Court to get involved. It is the House's responsibility to resolve disputes in Presidential election.

No thanks to the Supreme Court we ended up with one of the most disastrous Presidential terms in recent history. He started wars he couldn't win and gave us the largest Federal deficit ever, the largest trade deficits ever and then he put the icing on the cake by leaving us with one of the worst recession in history.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 06, 2014
I did forget about the fraud that led to the election of Bush in 2000

Never proven.
Different story for Nixon-Kennedy.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 06, 2014
"Seven minimum wage facts, however, may diminish Democrats' high hopes.

1. Just 2.8% of American workers earn at or below the minimum wage.
2. Half of all minimum wage workers are 16 to 24 years old.
3. Labor workers already make well above the minimum wage.
4. Even those who support minimum wage hikes concede it could kill jobs.
5. Minorities and the poor are hit hardest by the minimum wage.
6. Even progressives concede the minimum wage is no panacea for America's economic woes.
7. 21 states already have minimum wages that are higher than the federal $7.25/hr rate.
http://www.breitb...-Worried
billpress11
5 / 5 (1) Jan 06, 2014
I did forget about the fraud that led to the election of Bush in 2000

Never proven.
Different story for Nixon-Kennedy.

The Supreme Courts illegal intervention is PROVEN history!

Where is the proof of the Nixon-Kennedy election? Also the republicans efforts to reduce voting by the poor and handicaps is a completely different story.
billpress11
5 / 5 (1) Jan 06, 2014
Seven Facts, not so fast Rygg2.

1. When the minimum wage is raised it can also do the same for million of other near the minimum wage.
2. That means 50% of the minimum wage workers are also OVER 24 years of age.
3. Define "labor workers", that is just a nonsense filler statement.
4. False, most do not concede that, many think it will actually create jobs buy increasing the purchasing power of the poor.
5. Wrong, they are helped the most by an increase in the minimum wage!
6. Here is one I will agree with you on. The most helpful would be to just make it a national goal to produce as much as we consume.
7. Great! That is also one reason only 2.8% of the worker make the minimum wage. Also if the Federal minimum wage were increased some the states may increase theirs again.
It is a win win!
Modernmystic
1 / 5 (1) Jan 06, 2014
The Supreme Courts illegal intervention is PROVEN history!


It was either that or tanks int the street. I'd say since the spirit of the law is to prevent just such occurrences in a civil society it was not only legal but moral. Both sides have reasons to hang their heads over that one, but when you have a presidential vote come down to the difference between a hundred votes you're GOING to have people crying foul over the arbitrated outcome. Get comfortable with that fact.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 06, 2014
Nixon could have challenged the results, but didn't.
Gore, typical of 'liberals', did.
Power is all that matters to 'liberals'.

The Supreme Courts illegal intervention

SCOTUS intervention is only illegal when 'liberals' lose?
billpress11
not rated yet Jan 06, 2014
Nixon could have challenged the results, but didn't.
Gore, typical of 'liberals', did.
Power is all that matters to 'liberals'.

The Supreme Courts illegal intervention

SCOTUS intervention is only illegal when 'liberals' lose?


Right on!!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Jan 06, 2014
" Nixon always believed he was the true winner of the 1960 campaign. He called the Kennedys "the most ruthless group of political operators ever mobilized" and said they "approached campaign dirty tricks with a roguish relish" that "overcame the critical faculties of many reporters."

Indeed, the mysterious break-in to recover Nixon's incriminating financial documents convinced him that such burglaries were standard practice in national politics. Nixon vowed that he would never be caught unprepared again, and he ultimately established his own corps of hard-nosed operatives to carry out espionage and sabotage, which culminated in the botched break-in a dozen years later at the Watergate office of the Democratic Party.

A half-century afterward, Washington still lives with the residue of the Kennedys' little-known dirty trick, which helped unleash our modern scandal culture and continues to influence politics and media today. "
http://www.washin...e/2011/0
COCO
5 / 5 (1) Jan 06, 2014
hopefully you will be outta bullets by 2050
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Jan 06, 2014
What the hell makes you think that I am an anarchist?... I stand up for the rights of others, even nonconformists, malcontents, artists, lawyers, priests and philosophers
-So youre batman then?
But on this issue you are so convinced that there is a holy war coming that you support using evil practices to defend a good cause. The end does NOT justify the means
"When its over what will be left of the boy?" "What does it matter if theres nothing left at all?"
http://www.youtub...WLgY-wuo

-We will NOT be destroyed. No matter WHAT. The future of the species depends on it.

YES it DOES.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 06, 2014
What the hell makes you think that I am an anarchist?... I stand up for the rights of others, even nonconformists, malcontents, artists, lawyers, priests and philosophers


-So youre batman then?


So you don't stand up for the rights of others?
What are you:
a) too chicken?
b) too self-centered to care about your fellow humans?
or c) other?
If other, please explain.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 06, 2014
We will NOT be destroyed. No matter WHAT. The future of the species depends on it.


A paranoid AI is far more of a threat to our species than terrorists.

If the AI's roots are in the common-law system as evolved by juries, with innocence assumed until proven guilty, a right to see and contest the evidence, and better to let ten guilty go free than to hang an innocent man, then the odds are good that fairness, justice and respect for individuals will be deeply embedded in the AI.

But if the AI's roots are in the NSA/CIA's everyone-is-a-suspect, secret courts with hidden evidence, mass-warrant surveillance, use of torture, assassinations with no trial, and end-justifies-the-means programs, then the future is bleak, not rosy.

I've asked twice already if you see the difference between these.
You have not answered, so I'll ask it a third time:

Do you see the difference?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 06, 2014
"If you're a Millennial who loves bread lines, prison camps, forced famines, and abject human misery, then you'll love the latest offering from Rolling Stone. Over the weekend, Jesse Myerson, a twenty-something former Occupy organizer, finally stumbled upon a foolproof recipe for success for today's struggling Millennials. The recipe? Communism, naturally."
http://thefederal...sm-work/
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
Hello spinpuppy
But if the AI's roots are in the NSA/CIA's everyone-is-a-suspect, secret courts with hidden evidence, mass-warrant surveillance, use of torture, assassinations with no trial, and end-justifies-the-means programs, then the future is bleak, not rosy.
As we determined in the other thread spinpuppy, this is all bullshit. And if the end is sure annihilation then any and all means will be employed to prevent it. No matter what you and the rest of the litter are yip-yipping about. This is what nukes are for yes?

Too much metaphor for you? You're the guy who likes to invoke macchiavelli for spin value. What next - nazis? Jim jones?
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 08, 2014
So, Otto, are you are in favor of treating everyone as a suspect, secret courts with hidden evidence, mass-warrant surveillance, use of torture, assassinations with no trial?

And you still haven't answered on whether you stand up for the rights of others, although from your comments on "artists, lawyers, priests, philos and such rabble" I could take a guess.
As for why I bring up examples from history, it is in case you didn't read or remember history instead of having failed to learn from it.

So far, because of what we and our allies in the region have done, there is no order, no stability, no caliphate.

So you think that the Iraq war was a good idea? In spite of the facts that there was no significant Al Qaeda in Iraq before the US invaded but there is a significant Al Qaeda presence there now? Are you a supporter of Al Qaeda?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
I supported attacking Iraq for different reasons.
Saddam Hussein continuously violated the cease fire agreement with the help of French, British and Russian officials.
SH had used WMD (poison gas) in the past.
Iraq shared a long border with Iran allowing easier access to observe and be in Iran's way of creating nuclear weapons.
Now the US has zero credibilty with enemies or allies and Iran is much further along its way to build a nuclear weapon. And it has the missiles to deliver, and threaten Europe and the US.
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 08, 2014
@r2 - The Iraq war did take place, so your conclusion that
Now the US has zero credibilty with enemies or allies and Iran is much further along its way to build a nuclear weapon. And it has the missiles to deliver, and threaten Europe and the US.
is hardly evidence that attacking Iraq was a good idea...

Do you still, in hindsight, think that the Iraq war US was a good idea?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
in favor of treating everyone as a suspect
No.
secret courts with hidden evidence
Hidden from who? The courts? No. From you? Yes.
mass-warrant surveillance
Only if its legal.
use of torture, assassinations with no trial?
War is hell.

-Any more spin questions fashion hag?
artists, lawyers, priests, philos and such rabble
I was speaking lyrically.
having failed to learn from history
Lets see as I recall we chose to ignore the dangers posed by adolf hitler. He used to say things like

"the creation of a new world-wide Germanic empire... the conviction that a Christian–Jewish alliance is conspiring to destroy Germany. As nazis, they believe that the killing of civilians is divinely sanctioned, and they ignore any aspect of religious scripture which might be interpreted as forbidding the murder of civilians and internecine fighting."

-I just rewrote the al qaeda manifesto for you. And we certainly remember what happened the last time yes?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
Per your spin question about assassination:

[re the bin laden killing] thorough explanation of the legal basis was given last year by Harold Hongju Koh, legal adviser at the US state department... "Some have argued that the use of lethal force against specific individuals fails to provide adequate process and thus constitutes unlawful extrajudicial killing. But a state that is engaged in an armed conflict or in legitimate self-defence is not required to provide targets with legal process before the state may use lethal force."

-Perhaps this example will be illuminating...

"Operation Vengeance was the name given by the Americans to the military operation to kill Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto... reportedly damaged the morale of Japanese naval personnel (considered the equivalent of a major defeat in battle), raised the morale of the Allied forces, and was intended as revenge by U.S."

-As I say, war is hell. And many people enjoy liquids up the nose and loud music at night.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
Iraq war was a good idea
The first Iraq war was staged to destroy sadaams army, which he had stated 'was beginning to be a problem.' Standing armies become a danger to govts if they remain idle for too long.

Our subsequent occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan was part of an effort to compartmentalize the region. If you look at the map, starting with Israel and ending with India, it was us them us them us them us. Large forces could not assemble and move. Jihadis from many countries could not form up and head east for instance in support of an invasion of India.

Actions since the fall of the ottomans have been undertaken to keep the area divided and the pops under stress and fighting each other, to prevent the reemergence of the caliphate.

After ww2 France and Britain divided up ethnicities and enclosed their fragments within the borders of artificial countries ruled by Leaders who kept conflicts safely Managed within these countries.

This is how your world is Run.
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 08, 2014
in favor of treating everyone as a suspect
No.
Good

secret courts with hidden evidence
Hidden from who? The courts? No. From you? Yes.
hidden from the accused and the defense team.

mass-warrant surveillance
Only if its legal.
Good, but I am surprised - you have previously said something like 'any means possible'

use of torture, assassinations with no trial?
War is hell.
Torture is illegal even in war


artists, lawyers, priests, philos and such rabble
I was speaking lyrically.
A dangerous thing to do - the NSA's AI might not understand...


having failed to learn from history
Lets see as I recall we chose to ignore the dangers posed by adolf hitler.
Agreed - governments trying to justify something (appeasement) didn't make it right!
Action is CERTAINLY needed (but panicked overreaction is counter-productive - a bee sting itself is far less dangerous than an allergic over-reaction to it).
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
The Arab spring is not something unique. Conflict fueled by religion and population pressure are endemic.

The dramatic escalation we are now witnessing is a direct expression of the explosion in population growth throughout the region. One can imagine that if the Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnis had been given their own nations then the entire Middle East would have soon collapsed into one Great War.

And emerging from that conflagration would have been a nuclear-armed pan-Arab Wahhabi-led caliphate stretching from the Mediterranean to the indus and beyond. And I have already posted their intentions regarding world conquest.

The only difference between this empire and the ones envisioned by hitler, Stalin, or Mao, would be the speed of population growth. This factor alone would ensure that there would never be a stalemate or a Cold War. A nuclear war would already have been fought and a few billion would already be dead.

And don't forget - this could still happen.
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 08, 2014
I just rewrote the al qaeda manifesto for you. And we certainly remember what happened the last time yes?

Fine, but the Iraq war is what let Al Qaeda into Iraq.
The war in Lybia is what let Al Qaeda become a major force there.
And in the almost-war in Syria, the U.S. is letting weapons get into Al Qaeda hands there as well.

So the US may have been keeping the area compartmentalized, but they have also been increasing Al Qaeda's power in the process (also reducing its coordination). And the U.S. has made plenty of enemies in the process - the ordinary around the world used to see the US as a beacon of peace and prosperity, and many now see it as an oppressive invader.

Some of the US's actions in the Middle East have made the US less safe rather than more safe (starting with the CIA and MI6 ousting Mosaddegh). But anything for the oil industry, eh?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
hidden from the accused and the defense team.
You forget we are talking about the courts which allow the NSA to target terrorists. So what you're saying is that you want to let Al Qaeda and their imams in on proceedings.
Good, but I am surprised - you have previously said something like 'any means possible'
Let me give you a little better perspective on the realities of war. In the closing months of ww2 the allies firebombed a number of axis cities including hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The allies 'assassinated' and 'tortured' hundreds of thousands of civilians to death.

But only a few gens later we consider napalm and cluster bombs inhumane , and nuclear war unthinkable. Is this because we in the west have matured? No, it's because we haven't been involved in a war where the stakes were that high.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 08, 2014
And so let me repeat the obvious: in order to keep our country from being overrun, our families butchered, our wives and daughters raped, and our way of life destroyed, we would do whatever it took to prevent it. And if you look at our arsenals you can see we are well prepared for the possibility .

A world Islamist empire would mean another dark age and the end of the species . And this is NOT going to happen.
Al Qaeda's power in the process (also reducing its coordination
You are naive. Perhaps all that spinning has made you dizzy. Al Qaida and the Taliban have been instrumental in bleeding off gens of overpressure and directing it into the guns of coalition forces. They did this in Egypt, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and especially Pakistan.

They are the only reason Pakistan has remained stable. Without bin laden there would have been an Islamist revolution and a probable nuclear exchange with India .
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 08, 2014
Actions since the fall of the ottomans have been undertaken to keep the area divided and the pops under stress and fighting each other

And hating the west as a result. Brilliant - create your own enemies and ensure that they hate you enough to be happy get revenge even if they die in the process! And we can see the result.

to prevent the reemergence of the caliphate....And don't forget - this could still happen.

Yes, and while the British strategy that the US now uses hasn't ensured that the caliphate won't happen, it has greatly increased the percentage of the population that hates the west if it does happen.

A better strategy would have been reminders that when Islam welcomed science and peace (including with the jews, who 1000 years ago were welcomed as silversmiths and artists), they were the most powerful force on earth. But instead of supporting Islamic peace and science, the West's strategy gave power to fundamentalist nutters bent on revenge. -continued-
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
The illusion of strength with these organizations is in reality the increasing flow of cannon fodder they are collecting from all the areas they operate in. Pops are growing THAT FAST. 100 k dead already in Syria. The horror is they have absolutely NOTHING else to do but fight.

They are being born faster than they can be killed. In the west we are able to kill them before they are born. This is reality sans spin.
And hating the west as a result. Brilliant - create your own enemies and ensure that they hate you enough to be happy get revenge even if they die in the process!
EXACTLY. In order to have effective wars you have to elicit the proper emotions within combatants. Young terrorists would love to blow up Times Square but instead are given the chance to shoot at gunships and Abrams tanks, with the predicted result.

THAT is where the real war against terror is being fought.

Hitler fired 5000 v1 and v2 rockets and killed 5000 people. The PURPOSE was to enrage the enemy .
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 09, 2014
- continued -
Unless one wants a war, the strategy of antagonizing your opponent is as much a failure as Neville-the-Appeaser's strategy of appeasing Hitler.


Let me give you a little better perspective on the realities of war. In the closing months of ww2 the allies firebombed a number of axis cities including hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The allies 'assassinated' and 'tortured' hundreds of thousands of civilians to death...


If necessary to stop a war that another country has started against your country, then agreed, people die, you do what you have to to survive.

Al Qaida and the Taliban have been instrumental in bleeding off gens of overpressure and directing it into the guns of coalition forces. They did this in Egypt, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and especially Pakistan.


Sounds like you think that the U.S. strengthens Al Qaeda deliberately and that you support that strategy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
Don't you get it ? These wars are Planned, Staged , Engineered , Choreographed , and Managed to produce a predetermined Result . Because without Planning they would STILL happen. And the results would be devastating , crippling , and ruinous .

So obviously, letting them happen by themselves would be immoral and suicidal.

'There is a [Proper] Time for everything ' -ecc3

Leaders above a certain level are ALL on the same side. There is only one Side left in this world.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
"If you brought back either of the Roosevelts—Teddy or Franklin—from the grave, the most astonishing thing they would find is that the "malefactors of great wealth" have become the benefactors of today's liberalism, and Democrats have become the party of the rich. In the economic crisis of the 1930s, the rich hated FDR. Most of today's rich love Barack Obama—so much so that Washington D.C. area airports ran out of space to handle all of the private jets flying in the well-heeled for both of his inaugurals. "
http://www.forbes...he-rich/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
"As the nation marks the 50th anniversary of the War on Poverty this week, it's worth considering that our attention to income inequality, although well-meaning, is distracting us from the most important pieces in the poverty puzzle. Growth, marriages, and local governments are three issues deserving more attention in our efforts to renew the American Dream for the nation's poorest citizens."
http://www.theatl.../282906/
But 'liberals' want MORE federal control, fewer marriages and promote policies that limit growth so 'liberals' want to keep people in poverty.
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 09, 2014
Don't you get it ? These wars are Planned, Staged , Engineered , Choreographed , and Managed to produce a predetermined Result . Because without Planning they would STILL happen. And the results would be devastating , crippling , and ruinous .

So obviously, letting them happen by themselves would be immoral and suicidal.

'There is a [Proper] Time for everything ' -ecc3

Leaders above a certain level are ALL on the same side. There is only one Side left in this world.


And if you think that it is all so well choreographed, then do you think that the U.S. staged 9/11 as a false-flag event? Or at least knowingly let is happen?

As for the world leaders ALL being on the same side, then what is that side's goal and who is the other side?

As for choreographing the wars, a paranoia-based AI might find a species that does such things dangerous. It might decide our fate in micro-seconds...
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
And if you think that it is all so well choreographed, then do you think that the U.S. staged 9/11 as a false-flag event? Or at least knowingly let is happen?
What makes you think the leaders whom you can see are the Ones who actually make the decisions? Plato described the perfect Leader class as being wholly beyond public scrutiny. I see it more as a Tribe. Who else could you depend on to make decisions which would be unpopular with the vast majority of people and yet absolutely HAVE to be made?

Such problems do exist and they absolutely HAVE to be solved. And there is no visible govt or alliance capable of solving them.

And yet evidence tells us that they are being solved. In part because we are still here.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
As for the world leaders ALL being on the same side, then what is that side's goal and who is the other side?
I think you have seen my answer to this already. I misspoke above - there are 2 sides in the world. The people are the enemies of leaders everywhere.

Our tropical repro rate means that sooner or later the people will always begin to run out of resources. And they will ALWAYS blame their leaders for their misery no matter how benevolent or well-meaning it is.

Only in the last few gens has the west been able to effectively counter this ominous equation. We have done this by offering women alternatives to making babies. And we can safely do this because we no longer need huge armies to protect us, thanks to technology. AI will soon assume the role.
As for choreographing the wars, a paranoia-based AI might find a species that does such things dangerous. It might decide our fate in micro-seconds
You watch too many movies. AI will only kill everybody if that is the Plan.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
"Growth, marriages, and local governments are three issues deserving more attention in our efforts to renew the American Dream for the nation's poorest citizens."

The american dream was based on an empty continent. The only way to renew the american dream is to reestablish this condition. We can either a) flush this continent again, or 2) begin colonizing the inner system. Take your pick.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
What makes you think the leaders whom you can see are the Ones who actually make the decisions? Plato described the perfect Leader class as being wholly beyond public scrutiny. I see it more as a Tribe. Who else could you depend on to make decisions which would be unpopular with the vast majority of people and yet absolutely HAVE to be made?


If I really were a fashion pig I would say to go easy on the tinfoil, but there actually a fair amount of evidence that what you describe is at least partially correct. Probably not as organized as the conspiracy theorists claim, but enough powerful people with enough common interests to act in a semi-coordinated fashion.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
As for choreographing the wars, a paranoia-based AI might find a species that does such things dangerous. It might decide our fate in micro-seconds

You watch too many movies. AI will only kill everybody if that is that is the Plan.

You started with the Ender's Game reference. In a conversation that discussed whether a paranoid military-defense based AI is a danger to the human race, 'The Termination' is at least as relevant as "Ender's Game".

You have far too much faith in the Plan (and why do you capitalize it?).
Even the ultra-powerful have never created an AI smarter than humans before, and brilliant children sometimes turn on their parents.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 09, 2014
The american dream was based on an empty continent. The only way to renew the american dream is to reestablish this condition. We can either a) flush this continent again, or 2) begin colonizing the inner system. Take your pick.


Begin colonizing the asteroids!!!!

TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 10, 2014
Probably not as organized as the conspiracy theorists claim, but enough powerful people with enough common interests to act in a semi-coordinated fashion
Ill tell you exactly what it is. Tribal chiefs long ago got together to try to resolve their mutual problems. Young disaffected youth born into their overcrowded tribes were a continuous source of trouble, fighting with each other and inciting wars among the tribes.

The obvious solution was to begin staging engagements. Leaders took control of raids and ambushes and secretly coordinated them to rid each other of the troublemakers. This strengthened both tribes.

Leaders intermarried and developed into a Tribe of their own. Kohannin if you will. Through the Delphic community they staged Greek city-state wars for centuries. Alexander and Darius were on the same side. All euro royalty were related and descended from Charlemagne.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 10, 2014
This Tribe described exactly what They do and how They do it in the bible. It is a lesson book on how to establish and maintain an Empire. They created the state religions to maximize growth and aggression.

They recruit and create despots like Alexander and genghis khan and Julius Caesar and Stalin and yes hitler for the Purpose of engineering great demographic projects.

It does not matter who They are. We need only examine the trail They leave with the understanding that overpopulation has always been mankinds greatest threat.

They are consummate spin doctors. They have had millennia to refine methods of dividing the people up and setting them against one another in Constructive and Beneficial Ways. They can teach us for instance that infanticide and water boarding are morally reprehensible but that abortion and carpet bombing are legal and necessary.

"Everything is beautiful IN ITS OWN TIME." Ecc3
http://www.bibleg...iastes+3

-Timing is everything.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 10, 2014
"I And for all of you sinners there shall be no salvation,
j But on you all shall abide a curse.
7a But for the Elect there shall be light and joy and peace,
b And They shall inherit the earth.

8 And then there shall be bestowed upon the Elect wisdom,
And They shall all live and never again sin,
Either through ungodliness or through pride:
But They who are wise shall be humble. "

"And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: SEND THEM ONE AGAINST THE OTHER that they may destroy each other in battle"

-Book of Enoch

-The people are the enemy. Leaders found clever ways of making them wage war against each other.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (2) Jan 10, 2014
"More terrible economic news hit the struggling American people today when the Bureau of Labor Statistics announced that only 74,000 jobs were created in December, the fewest number in five years. The unemployment rate dropped from 7% to 6.7%, but that is due only to the disheartening fact that 525,000 of the unemployed stopped looking for work. As a result, the labor force participation rate dropped to its lowest point since 1978. "
http://www.breitb...-numbers
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 10, 2014

They recruit and create despots like Alexander and genghis khan and Julius Caesar and Stalin and yes hitler for the Purpose of engineering great demographic projects.

It does not matter who They are. We need only examine the trail They leave with the understanding that overpopulation has always been mankinds greatest threat.

They are consummate spin doctors. They have had millennia to refine methods of dividing the people up and setting them against one another in Constructive and Beneficial Ways.
...
-The people are the enemy. Leaders found clever ways of making them wage war against each other.


Otto - So if I understand, you think that the true leaders of the world force war upon the non-leaders in order to increase the death rate. Is this correct, and do you support the leaders in this?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
""Today's jobs report underscores a deeper problem facing our economy: a large and growing block of people who are chronically jobless and completely outside the workforce. In December, the economy added only 74,000 jobs – not nearly enough to keep up with population growth –and 347,000 left the workforce. That means for every one job added, nearly 5 people left the workforce entirely. "
http://www.weekly...106.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
Otto - So if I understand, you think that the true leaders of the world force war upon the non-leaders in order to increase the death rate. Is this correct, and do you support the leaders in this?
Let me quote myself:

"... the understanding that overpopulation has always been mankinds greatest threat."

-One spin that we are given from birth is that nothing is inevitable. Religion tells us that we will live forever and that god forgives all transgressions. Insurance will pay for all our mistakes. Greasy lawyers can get us out of any legal problem, and sue anyone who harms us. Medicine can cure anything. Makeup ensures that we can be beautiful long after we grow ugly.

And so we continue to support the system that promises these miracles. But it is a lie. Many things in life are inevitable. As tropical animals, our pops are guaranteed to grow beyond the carrying capacity of the region where we live.

And so war is inevitable. INEVITABLE. Postponing it will only make it worse.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
Ignoring this reality is morally reprehensible, when the reality is, that with proper Planning and Forethought, war can provide unimaginable Benefit in establishing overall Stability and technological Progress.

It can provide incredible power to whoever can achieve planned wars. In Greece it developed a culture which could not be conquered and which itself could conquer the known world.

And so Leaders who did not take the initiative and begin to Manage their pops in this manner, would be overwhelmed and consumed by those who did.

And so we see that Empire itself is Inevitable. The state religions were established and swept the world clean of all primitive contenders. And Empire has at last created a Culture which has achieved zero growth and an end to this horrific Cycle.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
Do I approve of all this? Do I approve of the farmer who stores grain knowing that winter always comes?

'God' told Joseph and pharaoh that famine ALWAYS follows feast. So they built granaries and ended up owning everything of value in Egypt.

Empire owns everything of value in the world. They own the govts, the religions, the legal, educational, and economic systems. They control technological innovation so that dangerous tech only emerges when the world can be made ready for it.

They tell us what to think, do, and say. Morality for a given region or culture, at any given point in time, is exactly what THEY say it is. And so we can accept when it is morally imperative to incinerate cities and abort a billion babies, when the Time is right. We can accept that non-procreative sex is morally reprehensible when there is the need to grow pops, and a morally preferable when capacities have been reached.

"Everything is beautiful IN ITS OWN TIME." -says wise old Solomon in Ecclesiastes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
Otto - So if I understand, you think that the true leaders of the world force war upon the non-leaders in order to increase the death rate. Is this correct, and do you support the leaders in this?
"A Time for EVERYTHING

3 There is a [Proper] time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be BORN and a time to DIE,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to KILL and a time to HEAL,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to EMBRACE and a time to REFRAIN from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to LOVE and a time to HATE,
a time for WAR and a time for PEACE."

-Plan. It's what we do.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
And in Syria it is obviously the Time for dying.

"A week of intense fighting between rebel groups that spread across four provinces of north and eastern Syria has left almost 500 people dead, including dozens of civilians, a U.K.-based Syrian activist group said.
At least 240 rebels were killed as they fought members of the al-Qaeda-linked Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant between Jan. 3-Jan. 9 in Aleppo, Raqqah, Hama and Idlib, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said, citing medical and local sources. At least 157 ISIL fighters have also died.
Both groups are also fighting Syria's President Bashar al-Assad, and ISIL militants are additionally engaged against government forces in neighboring Iraq.
A total of 482 people have died in the clashes, the Observatory said. The rifts are the "largest and most serious" between the Western-backed rebels and al-Qaeda-linked forces..."

-Note how Al Qaeda is being used to balance forces in order to produce the most thorough Result.
ryggesogn2
4 / 5 (2) Jan 11, 2014
For an self proclaimed atheist, Auto quotes the Bible quite often.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
For an self proclaimed atheist, Auto quotes the Bible quite often.
My interpretation still makes sense even though the book is full of fables, myths, plagiarisms, forgeries, graffiti, and lies. Yours doesn't.

And I am a self-proclaimed anti-religionist. Big difference. The Time has come for religion to END.
RealScience
5 / 5 (1) Jan 11, 2014
@Otto - if the leaders are trying to use the current Middle-East wars to control the population, they are not succeeding, as the current wars leave over 95% of the growth intact.
The current wars being about oil fits the results much better.
Do I approve of all this? Do I approve of the farmer who stores grain knowing that winter always comes?

Otto, it sounds like you approve of using deliberately-staged wars to control population.

I have seen to percentage of the population that goes to bed hungry drop from ~35% to ~12% in my lifetime due to science and technology (we'd be below 10% if the US stopped US converting food to fuel due to greedy politics), and the population growth rate has dropped from 3%/year to 1.15%/year. If even half the the military budgets had been devoted to energy and agricultural research, we would now have have sufficient resources for everyone. In the era of science war is not the best answer, and war should only be used in self defense.
ryggesogn2
4 / 5 (2) Jan 11, 2014
And I am a self-proclaimed anti-religionist.

Who likes to use religion.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 15, 2014
current wars leave over 95% of the growth intact
Sorry I believe you made that up. Modern wars are waged to destroy cultures. The world wars and the communism which followed destroyed the religionist cultures throughout Eurasia which would have resisted the sweeping family planning initiatives which followed.

These initiatives ENDED population growth in much of that part of the world. The Vietnam war ended the religion-shackled culture there and enabled family planning. At present, almost 20% of pregnancies in Vietnam are aborted.
http://www.johnst...dex.html

-The conflicts in the Middle East are ongoing. Cultures are in the process of being destroyed. These things can take a lot of time.

In china it took a few centuries of western intercession - the opium wars, the Taipei rebellion, the japanese occupation, and the communist revolution to mitigate the influence of ancient cultures and end overgrowth. That Project continues as well.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Jan 15, 2014
Otto, it sounds like you approve of using deliberately-staged wars to control population
I approve of the destruction of the virulent religionist cultures which seek to spread themselves by outgrowing and overrunning their neighbors. They are the ENEMIES of mankind everywhere. They must be destroyed if mankind is to have a future.

And because of their virulent nature, war with them is inevitable. I am happy there is a Power Structure in the world that is practical enough to Engineer the destruction of these cultures before they can extinct the species.
Who likes to use religion
Ryggy makes a common mistake. The people who wrote your book cared little about what happened after you were dead. They did however care a great deal about what you thought and said and did while you were alive.

The book wasn't written to save YOU, it was written to save the world FROM you.

"For god so loved the WORLD..." -that he would promise the people on it just about anything.
RealScience
not rated yet Jan 21, 2014
current wars leave over 95% of the growth intact


Sorry I believe you made that up.


The current Muslim population is ~1.5 billion and growing at ~1.5% per year, so that is an increase of ~22.5 million per year. 5% of that would be more than 1 million per year.

I bet that you cannot find credible sources of Muslim deaths from wars that average more than 1 million per year for the past year, past five years or past decade.