Can a collapse of global civilization be avoided?

Jan 11, 2013

Throughout our history environmental problems have contributed to collapses of civilizations. A new paper published yesterday in Proceedings of the Royal Society B addresses the likelihood that we are facing a global collapse now. The paper concludes that global society can avoid this and recommends that social and natural scientists collaborate on research to develop ways to stimulate a significant increase in popular support for decisive and immediate action on our predicament.

Paul and Anne Ehrlich's paper provides a comprehensive description of the damaging effects of escalating climate disruption, overpopulation, overconsumption, pole-to-pole distribution of dangerous , poor technology choices, depletion of resources including water, soils, and biodiversity essential to food production, and other problems currently threatening global environment and society. The problems are not separate, but are complex, interact, and feed on each other.

The authors say serious can only be solved and a collapse avoided with unprecedented levels of international cooperation through multiple civil and political organizations. They conclude that if that does not happen, nature will restructure civilization for us.

In a statement on his website, HRH The Prince of Wales has reacted to the paper, agreeing, "We do, in fact, have all the tools, assets and knowledge to avoid the collapse of which this report warns, but only if we act decisively now. If, though, in our evermore interconnected and complex world, we are to succeed, real leadership and vision is required. It is just possible that we can rise to this challenge, but to do so we will need to adjust our world view in a profound and comprehensive way. We have to see ourselves as utterly embedded in Nature and not somehow separate from those precious systems that sustain all life. I have said it before, and I will say it again – our grandchildren's future depends entirely on whether we seize the initiative and prevaricate no further."

Explore further: Rising anger as Nicaragua canal to break ground

More information: Ehrlich, P. and Ehrlich, A. Perspective: Can a collapse of global civilization be avoided? Proceedings of the Royal Society B. http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2012.2845?utm_source=royalsociety-org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=journal-news&utm_content=2013-01-10

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Doug_Huffman
2.5 / 5 (21) Jan 11, 2013
Read Samuel P. Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations -- And The Remaking of World Order.
Claudius
3.1 / 5 (27) Jan 11, 2013
Wait, you mean there is a global civilization?
jim_frank_967
2.4 / 5 (18) Jan 11, 2013
The alarmist Paul Erlich cries "Wolf" again.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.1 / 5 (28) Jan 11, 2013
"Can a collapse of global civilization be avoided?"

-Yes of course because its future has been Planned. Western civilization has always faced collapse and yet has survived time and again. This is no accident.

Long ago Leaders decided to accept the Inevitable and to begin Planning for it.

Investment brings growth and overgrowth, leading to instability and collapse. If these Cycles could be Planned they could be used to benefit, and not endanger, civilization.

The greatest threat to civilization is war. But war can instead produce the greatest benefit if it can be Planned, Staged, and Managed; and most importantly, if the outcome can be Predetermined. This is possible if and only if all Players above a certain level are on the same Side.

Like the seasons, war is Inevitable. It can be delayed, but this will only make it worse when it does happen. And so it must happen in the proper Way, at the proper Time, in order to preserve the civilization which has no choice but to wage it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.1 / 5 (27) Jan 11, 2013
King solomon told us exactly how this was going to work. Despite all his great knowledge and power he found that he could not determine what would become of his kingdom after he was gone. 'All is Meaningless' he cried. But then Heaven spoke:

"1 There is a [Proper] Time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for WAR and a time for peace."

-And an Empire was Born.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (43) Jan 11, 2013
"decisive and immediate action on our predicament."

What predicament?

"In other words, the rate of global population growth has slowed. And it's expected to keep slowing. Indeed, according to experts' best estimates, the total population of Earth will stop growing within the lifespan of people alive today.

And then it will fall."
http://www.slate....ing.html

"Up to half of all the food produced in the world—two billion tonnes of it—is thrown away, according to a report published on Thursday.

Read more at: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp

I know there is data showing the environment is cleaner.

Sounds like Ehrlich and his disciples are running out of excuses for socialism.

The best solution is the PROVEN solution: FREE markets and FREE peoples, NOT socialism.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.2 / 5 (23) Jan 11, 2013
"The authors say serious environmental problems can only be solved and a collapse avoided with unprecedented levels of international cooperation through multiple civil and political organizations."

There is only one Organization. Empire. And it will NOT let what might be the only intelligent species in the universe die. It will preserve it and its irreplacable store of Knowledge at all costs.

They are the Priesthood who carried this knowledge safe within the ark during the Deluge.
ryggesogn2
3.1 / 5 (34) Jan 11, 2013
" what you actually see is a preponderance of trends that are moving in a fantastic direction. Take health care: over the past century, child-mortality rates have dropped by 90 percent, while the human lifespan has doubled. Or poverty, which has dropped more in the past 50 years than it did in the previous 500.

At a global level, the gap between wealthy nations and poorer nations continues to close. Across the board, we are living longer, wealthier, healthier lives."
http://www.thedai...nce.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (30) Jan 11, 2013
What predicament?
Ha. Thats funny. Your article fails to mention the religion-dominated cultures throughout africa and the arab world where explosive overgrowth threatens the entire planet.

And you are also forgetting that the reduced growth rate in the west is due in large part to the elimination of those pre-ww2 religionist cultures which would have prevented the spread of family planning, contraception, and the ONE BILLION abortions which have taken place.
http://www.johnst....html#SU

These are the main reasons western growth has stabilized, and the world did not end in nuclear holocaust in the last century.

But religions still dominate much of the world and where they do, chaos reigns. Civilization is not safe until they are ended.
ryggesogn2
3.1 / 5 (31) Jan 11, 2013
"Peter H. Diamandis is the founder and CEO of the X Prize Foundation and cofounder and chairman of Singularity University. He is a serial entrepreneur turned philanthropist who has started more than a dozen high-tech companies. He has degrees in molecular biology and aerospace engineering from MIT, and an M.D. from Harvard Medical School. He has written a new book, Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think, "
http://www.thedai...nce.html
An entrepreneurial engineer from MIT and a socialist biologist from Berkley have opposing views.
But Diamandis has data, Ehrlich does not.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (24) Jan 11, 2013
At a global level, the gap between wealthy nations and poorer nations continues to close. Across the board, we are living longer, wealthier, healthier lives." http://www.thedai...nce.html
Ha. Thats also funny. You cite an article by sam harris, noted atheist and anti-religionist. Are you becoming deprogrammed perhaps?
The Future Is Better Than You Think
Of course it is, because and ONLY because it has been Planned. Humanity WILL survive in its best form in spite of itself.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (21) Jan 11, 2013
Religionists hard at work
http://www.youtub...eYpZAS4o

-This is what the generation born above the line of stability has always done. For there is nothing else for them TO do but try to take from others what they need to survive.

Their religions tell them exactly who to blame, and what to do about it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.2 / 5 (19) Jan 11, 2013
The solution is simple: force your local government for investments into cold fusion research. There is no other way: the savings and environmental programs will not work.
LENR is passe.

"BLP's CEO and chairman says, ""BlackLight's continuously operating, power-producing system converts ubiquitous H2O (water) vapor directly into electricity, oxygen, and a new, more stable form of Hydrogen called Hydrino, which releases 200 times more energy than directly burning hydrogen."
http://www.e-catw...tricity/

-I need shades.

Now all we need is a muon catalyst.
seb
4.3 / 5 (6) Jan 11, 2013
They are the Priesthood who carried this knowledge safe within the ark during the Deluge.


Except that the deluge thing is actually a metaphor for maintaining your mind, like much of the bible, so.. :shrug:
DavidW
1.2 / 5 (19) Jan 11, 2013
Truth and life are always what saves the world.

The only thing that makes a better future is there and only there.

Bottom line: What is required is for every person on this planet to get on their knees before their master: Truth and Life.

Nothing less will be acceptable because it won't be sustainable. It won't be sustainable because anything less is not the truth.

It will happen. It only comes down to whether we do it willingly before we suffer or after. Seven billion people folks. We have a front row seat to see more suffering tha has been seen in the totality of the entire human race all at once. This is not a game.
DavidW
1.1 / 5 (16) Jan 11, 2013
Vote down the truth. lol As if our illusioned ego's are more important than the only solution for all life: truth.

A problem this crazy requires a serious solution. You now what it is. Are you doing to try and destroy and betray all life and support the holocaust or you getting on your knees before your master? There are no exceptions.
Egleton
2.3 / 5 (12) Jan 11, 2013
"Hello down there, Flatlander. Yes you."
"Your escape lies in another direction. UP."
"UP is along a third dimension. It might not be clear to you just yet but there IS a third dimension. It is called UP, Flatlander."
"You do not know where my voice is coming from because you cannot yet comprehend the concept of UP, Flatlander."
"If you do not overcome this disadvantage you will perish, Flatlander."
DavidW
1.3 / 5 (15) Jan 11, 2013
Some people talk as if they really have something understood.
Of the people that do talk this way, only the ones that have made terrible mistakes and learned from those mistakes are not in a naive and innocent understanding.
I have made such mistakes. I cannot judge any of you for doing like I did. I can only hope you can do better than I did. It doesn't appear my hope is going to be answered. Failing to understand the truth of my words is to invite pain into your life and all those you love. This is not the lesson to learn, however.
The lesson is that truth and life are the most important: All life is important.
A root in truth and life is the only direction that we can take that will not fail. I didn't make it this way, but that is how it really is.
Skepticus
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 12, 2013
A civilization is not a static thing/system. If it comes into being, it has to pass through growth, decay and then death. It is inescapable. That's why we have archeology and ancient histories studies. Even the universe itself evolves and will someday die.
axemaster
5 / 5 (12) Jan 12, 2013
Regardless of whether the authors are correct, the comments on this board are reason enough to fear for our future. I'll never be able to understand how people can be so driven by ideology and belief that they completely close their eyes to what's happening in the real world.
Egleton
1.2 / 5 (9) Jan 12, 2013
"I'll never be able to understand how people can be so driven by ideology and belief that they completely close their eyes to what's happening in the real world."

That one is easy. But you will have to go to UTube an do a search for Dr Iain McGilchrist and the divided brain. He is a psychiatrist. It is all about the pathological triumph of the model-making Left Brain.
perrycomo
1 / 5 (13) Jan 12, 2013
Can a global collapse be avoided ?
That remains an open question , the dangers are sixfold .
1 bacteria
2 viruses
3 ideologies (including religions)
4 men who function like a fuhrer and are capable to move the masses into chaos .
5 an impact(or other destructive event) from out of space .
So nothing is sure , it is even possible that a destructive pulse of photons will hit the earth at a very specific date in the future , and you would not be able to do anything about it , it's time could already been fixed .
6 pollution
gwrede
3.1 / 5 (15) Jan 12, 2013
"Can a collapse of global civilization be avoided?" This question implies that if we do everything "right", it will never collapse. The keyword here being "never".

Just as todays Britons can't imagine the day the Monarchy crumbles, or the Soviets thought the USSR was forever, people today all over the world seem to think our civilization is forever -- unless some global disaster hits us, or that the Russians press the Red Button.

So the assumption here is that Our Civilization is Eternal, unless. Well, have I got news for you: so did everyone else think about their civilization.

And, they all, too, thought "this time it's different".

--- At best, we can only try not to F*** it all up too soon.
Mike_Massen
2.9 / 5 (15) Jan 12, 2013
TheGhostofOtto1923 claimed
-I need shades.
Indeed, Otto, when you have had your head in the sand for so long and can't see the psychology behind the many claims Re BLP: http://en.wikiped...ht_Power

TheGhostofOtto1923 stated
But religions still dominate much of the world and where they do, chaos reigns. Civilization is not safe until they are ended.
Great idea, this of course includes all the variations of so called Christianity and all those nuts who cherry pick and post select religious sayings as if it has any use, such as
..But then Heaven spoke:..
So where do you sit Otto, you want all religions to be ended but with obvious contradiction state text from religious writings to support your notion about 'Civilisation' ?

Did you forget to take your meds again, TheGhostofOtto1923, or are your ideas merely the ghost of your lost rationale before you changed medication... ?
ValeriaT
1.3 / 5 (13) Jan 12, 2013
the comments on this board are reason enough to fear for our future.
Natello was downovoted with jonnyboy, gwrede, Grallen, Gawad, Ojorf, geokstr, Estevan57, Neinsense99, lite / Q-Star, Maggnus and trapezoid.
nigel_reading
1 / 5 (4) Jan 12, 2013
Exactly what Ecocide 2 Sustopia is advocating. New Law of Nature & Culture 2 B new Law of Man.
To get us to Rio 20 Sustainable Development goals.
Asynsis Sustopia Initiative & Ecocide is a Crime on Facebook.
Rio 20: 10Steps 2 Sustopia via new Asynsis principle-Constructal law ToE and P2P Crowdsourced DemAgoracia
Cosmomimetic Design in Nature&Culture - Asynsis Principle-Constructal law Seminar: ShanghaiUniNantesEcoledeDesign
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (21) Jan 12, 2013
Great idea, this of course includes all the variations of so called Christianity and all those nuts who cherry pick and post select religious sayings as if it has any use, such as
I was being metaphorical. What - too multidimensional for you mickey?
Indeed, Otto, when you have had your head in the sand for so long and can't see the psychology behind the many claims Re BLP: http://en.wikiped...ht_Power
I thought it was interesting that they're claiming multiparty corroboration and progress on a reactor. Who knows? Not you-
So where do you sit Otto, you want all religions to be ended but with obvious contradiction state text from religious writings to support your notion about 'Civilisation' ?
I think that the bible Writers were very clever People. Religions were essential to forging civilization because of their utility in Managing people and destroying enemies. Their methods are obviously obsolete. They are doomsday weapons.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (18) Jan 12, 2013
Religionists doing what they were born to do (literally)
http://edition.cn...pt=hp_t3

-Is Paris next?
Wolf358
5 / 5 (6) Jan 12, 2013
To paraphrase,
"Why do civilizations die?"
"Because they are born."

ShotmanMaslo
1.5 / 5 (11) Jan 12, 2013
Most of those problems can be attributed to lack of cheap, abundant and clean energy. And the solution to that is thorium:

"How Thorium can save the world: Salim Zwein at TEDxBeirut 2012"
http://www.youtub...6e0ntFrw
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (28) Jan 12, 2013
Christian monks saved preserved western civilization after the collapse of Rome.
Mike_Massen
3 / 5 (16) Jan 12, 2013
ryggesogn2 offered but, without education
Christian monks saved preserved western civilization after the collapse of Rome.
How so ? Details please, really ? Education wherebeist thou ?

History records Christians sacked the library of Alexandria as those texts went against their beliefs & they killed many of the librarians !

Just goes to show, all beliefs must have a foundation & the "Provenance of Truth" & people should never be tempted to ingratiate themselves before their idea of any idiot deity that can't communicate well !

TheGhostofOtto1923 will get to you later but, suffice it to say, you need to get a good understanding of metaphor vs irony vs sarcastic vs sardonic intent, how you craft your vagarious & diverse responses figure significantly in our choice of prioritising our time, so TheGhostofOtto1923 be aware of entropy (death) for some of use with terminal illnesses it comes all too soon, time is the only commodity we can never replace !

Cheers - for *now*

*grin*
Czcibor
2.5 / 5 (13) Jan 12, 2013
According to The Limits to Growth from early '70s our civilization already collapsed...

Either from depletion of resources or in optimistic case of plentiful resources because of pollution. If anyone claims that we don't already live in post apocalyptic world, he must be seriously overoptimistic. ;)
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (22) Jan 12, 2013
...you need to get ...TheGhostofOtto1923 be aware of entropy (death) for some of use with terminal illnesses it comes all too soon, time is the only commodity we can never replace !
Blah? Say something with some real content for a change will you.

I just think that when you scrape all the superstition off the bible, you are left with very explicit instructions for forging an empire. The People who wrote it obviously cared nothing about what happens to you after you are dead (how could They?) but a great deal about what you think and do while you are here.

'For god so loved the WORLD...' -Not 'the people'. '...that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth...' -in THAT crap, would believe just about anything you tell them. This is 'faith', or a test of just how housebroken you are.

Gods were invented to save the world from YOU, not the other way around.
ryggesogn2
2.9 / 5 (27) Jan 12, 2013
"A case can be made that monasteries almost single-handedly saved western civilization. "
"Most major city centers lay in ruins, however, monasteries, because they were remote and hard to access, remained and within them were retained the culture and book knowledge lost everywhere else. Monks relentlessly copied and recopied Greek and Roman manuscripts as well as holy books, thus keeping the kernel of future civilization alive. The monasteries also served as the vanguard of future civilization, for when a monastery was founded, people naturally flocked around it to enjoy its spiritual and material benefits, and very often, this served as the nucleus of a budding town - not a few cities came out of such humble beginnings."
"monks actually were heavily responsible for making The Enlightenment possible by civilizing the barbarian tribes whose progeny, in forgotten centuries later, would ironically claim the Church was barbaric."
http://wiki.answe...ries_imp
ryggesogn2
2.9 / 5 (27) Jan 12, 2013
"What is often forgotten is that monks preserved knowledge, were inventors of rudimentary machinery, many alcoholic beverages and types of cuisine, basic science, preserved language and knowledge, tutored pagan chieftains who would begin the royal lineage of kings and the lords of established realms, encouraged agriculture and land development, re-established Latin as a universal language and made connections with one another, thus laying the ground work for a new system of European unity. Reading and writing was not seen as it is today, but was as much a tool as a plane was to a carpenter and a plow to a farmer; the oral transmission of knowledge and traditions was the common way of doing things.
Centuries of struggling for basic survival culminated in a slow recovery that finally bore fruit: civilization gradually reemerged. "
http://wiki.answe...dle_Ages
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (23) Jan 12, 2013
"Most major city centers lay in ruins, however, monasteries, because they were remote and hard to access, remained and within them were retained the culture and book knowledge lost everywhere else. Monks relentlessly copied and recopied Greek and Roman manuscripts
-But as we know, the center of progressive culture at the time was Baghdad. Islam preserved most major classic pagan works and made the greatest advanced in science, medicine, astronomy, navigation and shipbuilding. All this while monks and nuns were busy drinking and debauching behind their high stone walls.

So much so in fact that Charlemagne wrote a fatwa complaining about it. yeah Moslems had harems so what?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (22) Jan 12, 2013
"In an attempt to suppress vice among the clergy, Emperor Charlemagne (800-814), a strong Catholic supporter, issued this edict:

"We have been informed to our great horror that many monks are addicted to debauchery and all sorts of vile abominations, even to unnatural sins. We forbid all such practices and command the monks to cease wandering over the country. Charlemagne, quoted in T. Demetrius, Catholicism and Protestantism, p. 26."

-And according to ryggy they even hoarded forbidden pagan works that the church was busy gathering up and burning. The bastreds.
kochevnik
1.9 / 5 (18) Jan 12, 2013
Christian monks saved preserved western civilization after the collapse of Rome.
christianity caused the collapse of Rome
slack
1.8 / 5 (5) Jan 13, 2013
What's the beef people?
Surely no-one takes Paul Ehrlich seriously any more, and at 80 his brain is in neutral, just spinning over, repeating his thesis from 1968, containing all sorts of dire predictions based on opinion and no science. He's doing it again!
I find it rather demeaning of Physorg to report this and then comment on chinless's (Charley) admonition - another esteemed scientist no doubt!
Give me a break Physorg...
Howhot
2.6 / 5 (5) Jan 13, 2013
What needs to be asked is in what time frame are you talking? The immediate future or the far distant future. If it's the later, its anybody guess what man-kind (if that is what we call it) will look like.

If your talking about the near future and global warming, then I tend to think it will be a Soylent green future. If you need, just google soylent green.
Gigel
1 / 5 (3) Jan 13, 2013
Civilization falls out of a few causes:
- the disorderly and highly disruptive actions of big economic agents, namely the banks
- population aging due to reduction of population growth; really there was a demographic crisis far before the current economic crisis
- a general lack of interest in technological progress and big projects to advance the human civilization, due to population aging and a hedonistic culture, both promoted by the media

So, where's the wolf, really?
mountain_team_guy
2.9 / 5 (19) Jan 13, 2013
Hmmm. Get rid of your guns. I dare you.
ryggesogn2
2.9 / 5 (23) Jan 13, 2013
The trends are following the path outlined in "The Sovereign Individual".
Political jurisdictions are increasingly lowering restrictions to live there. Depardieu now has a Russian passport. SE Asian countries are offering special visas to attract retirees.
Some nation-states offer a flat annual fee (tax) to have that country's passport.
Individuals are increasingly becoming more free to choose where and how to live.
Of course some nation-states recognize this is destructive to their power, their sovereignty, and we are seeing many of these states trending towards more tyranny.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.2 / 5 (17) Jan 13, 2013
"We have been informed to our great horror that many monks are addicted to debauchery and all sorts of vile abominations, even to unnatural sins. We forbid all such practices and command the monks to cease wandering over the country. Charlemagne, quoted in T. Demetrius, Catholicism and Protestantism, p. 26."
Moebius
1.3 / 5 (13) Jan 13, 2013
The collapse is inevitable because we are stupid monkeys. Our economic system is based on growth (wrong). That requires a growing population (wronger). ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CAN GROW FOREVER (wrongest). Except maybe our greed and stupidity. The only way to avoid a collapse is zero population growth and an economic model that isn't based on growth. And that won't work either with the current population this high. All irrelevant because of the epidemic stupidity of our species, made worse by the system so it can't happen without cosmic intervention of some sort. Catch 22 squared, our time is limited.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (17) Jan 13, 2013
The collapse is inevitable because we are stupid monkeys. Our economic system is based on growth (wrong). That requires a growing population (wronger). ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CAN GROW FOREVER (wrongest).
Unfortunately rampant capitalism may be the only way to force the development if the solar system. This is necessary to ensure longterm survival. Fortunately the earth will be able to become a vast socialist themepark like Britain. Or the riviera of the inner system.
ryggesogn2
3.1 / 5 (23) Jan 13, 2013
Our economic system is based on growth (wrong). That requires a growing population

WRONG!

It's based upon efficiency and innovation.
Human needs and wants are unlimited so even a static population requires a growing economy to provide new products and services yet to be imagined.

TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (19) Jan 13, 2013
Hey ryggy

"Amid Republican opposition to raising the debt ceiling without spending cuts, some Democrats including House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi have proposed invoking the Constitution's 14th amendment and minting a platinum coin with a face value of $1 trillion to pay government bills."

-Well this really is how it works anyway isn't it? The govt creates the wealth but they must filter it through the banks which in turn lend it out to specific people for specific purposes. The govt then gleans a portion of the profits to maintain itself and preserve it's money making ability.

Sure this all requires industrious people but they after all need money to work with don't they? The govt makes the money but they make the money work.

In this case if the govt makes the money and gives it right back to itself, people would suspect that the whole system was a little fishy.

A 1T coin would make quite a museum exhibit wouldn't it? They could put it right next to the constitution.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (19) Jan 13, 2013
It's based upon efficiency and innovation.
Human needs and wants are unlimited so even a static population requires a growing economy to provide new products and services yet to be imagined.
WRONG

These things only make it work better. We would still be making very stylish mud huts and more functional spearchuckers if the govt was not there to Guide progress and innovation in the appropriate directions yes?

Moses was not an entrepreneur. He was a Leader. He was not out to make a profit (pun) he was out to save his people. There is a difference.
kochevnik
1.9 / 5 (13) Jan 13, 2013
Human needs and wants are unlimited so even a static population requires a growing economy to provide new products and services yet to be imagined.
That's an unfounded mantra composed by your bankster libertarian handlers, you sheep
ryggesogn2
2.9 / 5 (25) Jan 13, 2013
Human needs and wants are unlimited so even a static population requires a growing economy to provide new products and services yet to be imagined.
That's an unfounded mantra composed by your bankster libertarian handlers, you sheep

Unfounded? Not for Apple users or automobile drivers.
Shootist
2.8 / 5 (20) Jan 13, 2013
History records Christians sacked the library of Alexandria as those texts went against their beliefs & they killed many of the librarians!


No.

The library burned 400 years before Nicea II and 50 years before John the Baptizer.
Mike_Massen
3.2 / 5 (9) Jan 13, 2013
Shootist fired this across the bow
History records Christians sacked the library of Alexandria as those texts went against their beliefs & they killed many of the librarians!
No.

The library burned 400 years before Nicea II and 50 years before John the Baptizer.
Details are always a bit more complicated, please look here:- http://en.wikiped...exandria

BTW: Giving people the power to amplify their aggression by easy access to weapons can only create a climate of paranoia. Why does Australia have so less gun related homicides than USA ?

"Guns dont kill, people do" is only partly right, its rather more truthful to observe "Guns give people the far greater power to kill more people much more quickly", exactly what's happened in USA and will continue to happen until the issue of the militia (2nd amendment) is correctly 'interpreted' by local & regional police forces made up of educated citizens & not by putting powerful weapons in the hands of bogans !
ryggesogn2
2.9 / 5 (25) Jan 13, 2013
Crime rates have risen in Australia since gun buyback.
http://www.snopes...guns.asp

"New Zealand is strikingly similar to Australia. Both are isolated island nations, demographically and socioeconomically similar. Their mass murder rate before Australia's gun ban was nearly identical: From 1980 to 1996, Australia's mass murder rate was 0.0042 incidents per 100,000 people and New Zealand's was 0.0050 incidents per 100,000 people.
The principal difference is that, post-1997, New Zealand remained armed to the teeth -- including with guns that were suddenly banned in Australia.
While it's true that Australia has had no more mass shootings since its gun ban, neither has New Zealand, despite continuing to be massively armed. . . ."
http://johnrlott....ias.html
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (25) Jan 13, 2013
"Every day there are more than 300 break and enters across NSW, or one every four minutes and 45 seconds.

Each leaves a sorry or angry tale in its wake but few are ever solved. At the same time, the State Government says Sydney has never been safer and crime is at its lowest in recent memory."
"More armed robberies happen in Sydney than virtually all other states and territories combined. NSW endured almost 2900 hold-ups in 2004, compared to Victoria's 1100 and Queensland's 869."
http://www.smh.co...eStories
NOM
2 / 5 (12) Jan 13, 2013
Rygtard
The principal difference is that, post-1997, New Zealand remained armed to the teeth -- including with guns that were suddenly banned in Australia.
Armed to the teeth? How so? NZ has very strict gun control. Police do not routinely carry guns. Pistols, military type weapons and licences for these are not easily available.
NOM
1.8 / 5 (10) Jan 13, 2013
I just did some looking at just how "armed to the teeth" NZ is compared to OZ.
Recent figures for licenced gun owners are:
Oz - 5.2%
NZ - 5.2%
And the number of weapons (guns per 100 residents in 2007):
Oz - 15
NZ - 22.6 (though another estimate had it at 25)
US - 88.8

So. NZ has the same number of people owning guns, but they have 1.5 times as many. Hardly armed to the teeth.
RitchieGuy01
1 / 5 (15) Jan 14, 2013
Human needs and wants are unlimited so even a static population requires a growing economy to provide new products and services yet to be imagined.


These things only make it work better. We would still be making very stylish mud huts and more functional spearchuckers .
GhostofOtto

Heyyyyy. . . .who U calling a spearchucker, Otto? That is so racist. U better quit that racist talk. . . .sweet cheeks.

kiss kiss suck suck
FrankHerbert
2.1 / 5 (11) Jan 14, 2013
He didn't mention any races. Clearly you are the racist for bringing up race obama_socks/ritchieguy/pirouette.
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (11) Jan 14, 2013
Human needs and wants are unlimited so even a static population requires a growing economy to provide new products and services yet to be imagined.
That's an unfounded mantra composed by your bankster libertarian handlers, you sheep
By downvoting me the three stooges freethinking|Estevan57|lite actually claim that human demands are infinite. I would like to see support for that claim. More likely the stooge's women have infinite wants to compensate for lack of satisfaction in the bedroom
VendicarD
4.5 / 5 (8) Jan 14, 2013
What happened to all those home heters that Martini and Rossi were producing and which should have been available to purchase right now?

It's almost as if the entire E-Cat business that you true believers touted as a saviour for mankind has turned out to be the scam that we told you it was.

When can I purchase a working E-Cat, Netello?

"PDF The solution is simple: force your local government for investments into cold fusion research." - Natello
VendicarD
4 / 5 (6) Jan 14, 2013

"What predicament?" - RyggTard

HUMANS are churning through the Earth's resources at 1.5 times the rate that nature can replace them - and the over-consumption rate is worsening.

http://www.smh.co...HxYEVZkg

"Up to half of all the food produced in the world—two billion tonnes of it—is thrown away" - Ryggtard

That's Capitalism for you.

"I know there is data showing the environment is cleaner." - RyggTard

Ocean Dead Zones Growing; May Be Linked to Warming

http://news.natio...nes.html

Poor RyggTard. He simply refuses to get his mental illness treated.
VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2013
And in a moment of mental clarity...

"The best solution is the PROVEN solution: Socialism." - RyggTard
VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2013
The result of 40 years of Libertarian/Randite economic failure in the west that has produced the near destruction of the American middle class, and the stagnation of wages for everyone but the upper 1 percent.

"At a global level, the gap between wealthy nations and poorer nations continues to close." - RyggTard

Certainly the destruction of the U.S. economy has been good for the third world.
VendicarD
2.7 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2013
It is funny to watch the mentally ill like RyggTard here, spend their days desperately trying to prevent any and every attempt to improve material efficiency through the promotion of electric cars, or through the reduction in coal consumption through the construction of renewable energy projects, etc. etc.. etc.., and then watch them proclaim that the future is one of abundance.

"Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think" - RyggTard

The Mentally Ill like RyggTard, have a fundamental disconnect between their expectations and their ability to work to realize those expectations.

I suppose this is why all Randites have been spectacular failures, and why Libertarian/Randite policies have produce nothing but failure everywhere they have been implemented.

One need look no further than the U.S. economy and how Borrow and Spend Libertarianism has bankrupted RyggTard's own nation.
knowledgeispower19
1.8 / 5 (8) Jan 14, 2013
Personally, I have given up. When I observe the behavior of my contemporaries I have come to the conclusion that the collapse of global civilization is inevitable, or at the very least, likely. However, by that same token I could be speaking out of naivety/ignorance, as I am only a high school student.
VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (5) Jan 14, 2013
RyggTard provides a link to a reference that he claims supports his position but in fact he is only quoting a claim that the rest of the article he quotes, is dedicated to showing is false.

"Crime rates have risen in Australia since gun buyback." - RyggTard

From the very next line in RyggTard's own reference...

The claim is a "Mixture of both true and false information."

Rather than posting links to pages that contradict his own claims, RyggTard should try looking here for data to support his position.

http://www.abs.gov.au/

He doesn't of course, because there isn't any.

Which is why he tried to hide the fact that his own reference disagrees with him.
Mike_Massen
2.7 / 5 (14) Jan 14, 2013
ryggesogn2 comes across as intellectually dishonest with this example
Crime rates have risen in Australia since gun buyback.
http://www.snopes...guns.asp
When anyone reads the rest of the page in terms of the critique which obviously ryggesogn2 failed dismally to do. You find a good balanced study into the issue of statistics and why your feeble quote doesnt help your case ryggesogn2 its actually contradictory.

ie. At top of article
"Mixture of true and false information
example [collected on the internet...]"

The analysis is below the article until the end of the page.

Why were you quoting it anyway, to refute your own posting re NZ, makes no sense.

I think you were just lazy and didnt read the *whole page* you linked to, lol.
VendicarD
3.5 / 5 (8) Jan 14, 2013
The issue is one of morality isn't it?

"Personally, I have given up." - knowledgeispower

Giving up means acquessing to immorality and the evil of ignorance.

RyggTard provides a fine example of both.

VendicarD
3.3 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2013
Mike Massen has noticed an aspect of RyggTard's behaviour that has been pointed out over and over again during the last several years.

RyggTard is simply a congenital liar.

"ryggesogn2 comes across as intellectually dishonest" - Mike Massen

I have never encountered a Libertarian/Randite who wasn't a congenital liar.

Mike Massen should take that as a honest observation, and begin his own.
Mike_Massen
1.7 / 5 (6) Jan 14, 2013
knowledgeispower19 was struck by a spasm of melancholy
Personally, I have given up. When I observe the behaviour of my contemporaries I have come to the conclusion that the collapse of global civilisation is inevitable, or at the very least, likely. However, by that same token I could be speaking out of naivety/ignorance, as I am only a high school student.
Your last statement is correct and its ok because you are young.

Having been around for a few decades I've observed human civilisation is not by any means a static and it is essential we need more education at all levels. High School should not be optional it should be mandatory and with the inclusion of some basic social psychology and a smattering of philosophies.

Its seems less likely we will go out with a bang but instead a whimper where civilisation will become fragmented although corporations will always wish to centralise and control wealth distribution - this actually stabilises civilisation to a degree...
knowledgeispower19
1 / 5 (3) Jan 14, 2013
@Mike Massen I found it to be necessary to explicitly admit my ignorance due to my lack of life experience, relative to people such as yourself. With that being said, could you provide me with some evidence to support your aforementioned claims about civilization becoming fragmented after the initial collapse? if so, would you also be willing to tell me what you believe such a world would look like?
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (22) Jan 14, 2013
High School should not be optional it should be mandatory

Who choose the indoctrination?
Too many high school graduates today can't read their diploma.
People value what they have to pay for and EARN.
Mike_Massen
1.6 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2013
knowledgeispower19 ponders
..could you provide me with some evidence to support your aforementioned claims about civilization becoming fragmented after the initial collapse? if so, would you also be willing to tell me what you believe such a world would look like?
"After the initial collapse" did I say that ?

Given that evidence is historical, not possible to provide this after a collapse later on etc ;-)

First need to get a good handle on what civilisation actually is & what it implies re group interaction & responsibility. Eg see wikipedia for a fair opinion.

Look at things like the UK riots in the last 2-3 years and people's perceptions as to what they were 'entitled' to.

In some respects we have civilisation eroding at the edges in odd ways, some people retreating in that, they grow food at home, become hermits of one sort or another & only step into the so called civilised towns when they *really* need to, more later.

@ryggesogn2 along with an education you need meds !
axemaster
5 / 5 (1) Jan 14, 2013
With that being said, could you provide me with some evidence to support your aforementioned claims about civilization becoming fragmented after the initial collapse? if so, would you also be willing to tell me what you believe such a world would look like?

If you're really interested, I'd recommend reading the book 2052 by Jorgen Randers. It's a excellent read, and unlike most other prediction-makers, he actually uses science and statistical modeling. His team did a similar statistical analysis back in the 70's, which has proved pretty accurate.

http://www.amazon...03584218

If you want life advice, I'd recommend going into the physical sciences (i.e. engineering, physics, chemistry etc.). Getting good with math is the most important thing by far. Even if you're bad at math, push yourself to learn as much as possible. Nothing else you learn in school even comes close to the importance of math.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (22) Jan 14, 2013
@ryggesogn2 along with an education you need meds !

You assert high school must be mandatory and in most places it essentially is mandatory yet we have too many stupid HS graduates.
Is that what you are saying, you want stupid HS graduates?
knowledgeispower19
1 / 5 (3) Jan 14, 2013
@Mike Massen I apologize if you thought I was somehow trying to misrepresent your statement, that was not my intention. My apologies.

In relation to the specific type of civilizational erosion that you speak of, I think I understand what you are referring to. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't these sorts of people consists of individuals such as Dmitry Orlov, James Howard Kunstler, Richard Heinberg, and Derrick Jensen in addition to the proponents of ideologies such as Survivalism and Deep Ecology? (the following Wikipedia articles provide good information on these ideologies, if you are not already acquainted with them: http://en.wikiped..._ecology and http://en.wikiped...ivalism)
knowledgeispower19
1.6 / 5 (7) Jan 14, 2013
@Axemaster Thank you for your suggestions. Although I would like to enter the realm of the physical sciences, I am afraid it has become too late for me to seize that opportunity. I did not undergo an intellectual awakening until I was in the 2nd semester of grade 10, and I was only taking math at the community college level right from the very beginning of my high-school career.(in Canada it is called college level math, but I have attempted to put it into terms that everybody would be able to readily understand.) I am currently in grade 12, and preparing to graduate, although I will return for another semester next year due to my chronic lack of motivation to complete assigned work. Therefore as a consequence of this I am unable to enter the physical sciences, because of my complete lack of university math credits.
ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (23) Jan 14, 2013
although I will return for another semester next year due to my chronic lack of motivation to complete assigned work.

KIP19, is your HS education 'free'?

Why are you not motivated?
axemaster
not rated yet Jan 14, 2013
@knowledgeispower19
Trust me when I tell you that it's absolutely not too late. It's quite common for students entering college for engineering and science to not know any calculus - even in good colleges. A lot of students also just sort of cruise through college, and don't get much out of it.

I know well what you mean by "chronic lack of motivation to complete assigned work". I used to have the very same problem. You're unmotivated because they are giving you work, and you perceive it as boring. The way to fix this is to find something you are personally interested in, and study it.

There's various ways to go about doing this. If you live near a college, correspond with a professor or two, and find out what they're doing. If they're doing something that sounds interesting to you, try and set up an appointment to meet them. Do some research and follow up. If they say you don't know enough, ask them what you should study (get them to be specific).
(continued)
axemaster
not rated yet Jan 14, 2013
Say you'll try to learn that stuff over the next 6-12 months. This will impress them. Then actually go and DO it. Sit in on classes (especially math!!!) if you can. Do homework, and take the tests, even if you're not actually in the class. Most importantly, do as many problems as you can. You cannot learn math without doing many, many problems. It's a lot of work. It's also 100% worthwhile - advanced math skills will change your life in ways you can't imagine.

Note: Try to sit in on that same professor's class, so they notice you. This will build up some credibility and they'll think much more of you.

If you can come back to that same professor, and actually be in command of the material he/she wanted you to learn, one of two things will happen.
(continued)
axemaster
not rated yet Jan 14, 2013
1. They will let you join their group in some capacity. Work your ass off and prove to them that letting you join was the right decision. Building a good reputation is worth its weight in gold - and working in a lab or research group is stellar for your resume.

2. They still won't let you join. At this point you should ask if they can point you to any other professors who might be interested. When you visit those other professors, drop the first professor's name on them. Say something like "I've been working really hard, but he didn't have room for me to join". They'll probably discuss it later, and the 2nd professor will find out that you're a serious guy.

I would also point out that if you want to transfer colleges at some point, having people rooting for you at your target school is very very helpful. And you can use them as references for other schools as well.

(continued)
axemaster
5 / 5 (1) Jan 14, 2013
Well, that's enough of my scheming ^_^. In any case what I'm saying boils down to this: If you can find something interesting to do, and demonstrate to other people that you're motivated, good things will happen to you. Unexpected things. Such as:

Getting a job teaching physics at MIT.
Getting an email from NOVA out of the blue saying they want you to help them produce an episode of their TV show.

These things have happened to me in the past 3 months. Did I expect them? No. They happened, quite literally, because in the course of getting my physics degree I also spent a lot of time (read >16 hours per week) learning electronics engineering, machining, and doing a lot of experiments in the lab my professor let me use. In short, having fun and meeting people.

So trust me, at age 18? 19? your life is far from decided. In the next 60-70 years, who knows what you'll become? Don't wait around to find out. Make it happen.
knowledgeispower19
1 / 5 (4) Jan 14, 2013
@Axemaster First of all i would like to say that you and Mike Massen have been of great help thus far, thank you both for dedicating so much of your time to addressing my incessant questions. Now, in regards to the advice that you went out of your way to provide me with, it answered nearly all of my questions that i would have had regarding taking math courses in university (or college, if you prefer) however there remains one major problem, my proficiency in math is less than exemplary and it has actually become quite pathetic. Even the most basic calculations that serve as the basis for all math have become difficult for me. Furthermore, i would need to make up 4 university math credits starting from grade 9 for me to even be considered eligible for entrance into any physical science course in college. Even if i attained a level of proficiency where i became capable of doing calculus or advanced functions, these would have to be the obstacles i need to overcome.
axemaster
5 / 5 (1) Jan 14, 2013
@knowledgeispower
Could you be a bit more specific regarding what math you already know/are proficient with, and what sorts of things are giving you trouble? For example are you familiar with (in no particular order):

-factoring
-the quadratic equation
-trigonometry - finding sides/angles, using radians instead of degrees
-basic trig identities, like sin/cos = tan
-the exponential function
-pythagorean theorem

As for the math credits issue, I'm not familiar with that. Is that a thing that only exists in Canada? Is that a community college thing? I've never heard of it before.

Also, I would point out again that these things are rarely absolutes. In general they only bar people from entering certain courses because they figure they'll just fail anyway. If you can persuade the Prof. running the class that isn't the case, then you can probably get in regardless of credits. Keep in mind that it's just a university policy, not a law. You can talk to the policy-makers directly.
Estevan57
2.6 / 5 (32) Jan 14, 2013
@kochevnik
"By downvoting me the three stooges freethinking|Estevan57|lite actually claim that human demands are infinite."

I make no such claim.

"That's an unfounded mantra composed by your bankster libertarian handlers, you sheep" - kochevnik

I vote it down because:
Not a mantra aspoused by anybody referenced.
No evidence of bankster or libertarian leanings in this context.
Assuming Ryyggie has handlers is unfounded.
He is obviously a human.

lite is your friend Otto. If you don't like the vote, talk to him.
knowledgeispower19
1 / 5 (2) Jan 14, 2013
@Axemaster Perhaps i should have been mindful of the differences between the American and Canadian school systems, a credit is something that is simply equivalent to one full high school course, which is earned when the student earns the minimum passing mark of 50%. In the province in which i live, secondary school students are required to have a minimum of 30 credits and 40 hours of community service in order to recieve our diploma and graduate. We take 4 courses per semester, meaning we earn 8 credits in one academic year. (obviously) I tried to explain this as concisely as i could, but if there was anything that once again seemed too vague, please forgive me. As for my issues with math, i will gladly send you a PM in regards to that issue at a later date.
axemaster
not rated yet Jan 14, 2013
OK, that makes a lot more sense. We can certainly continue this via PM or email if you prefer.
Mike_Massen
1 / 5 (4) Jan 15, 2013
knowledgeispower19 got despondent
..my proficiency in math is less than exemplary and it has actually..
Some general advice:-

1. Dont worry re math, Einstein failed too
2. Be kind to yourself, or else !
3. BANISH negative emotions, instead exercise 'practice of presence'
4. Notice:- Linguistics is inextricably tied to Intelligence (of all the different types) & once you can visualise that association well it feeds positively to motivation
5. Build something practical, which externalises your skill set in any way shape or form
6. Write clearly in your mind in block letters slowly (6-8 times & paper copy) when in bed before going to sleep & only write short & positive without use of negation adjectives
eg. "I CAN FEEL PROGRESS IN...", your words to that effect & vary them daily to include practical issues
7. When you write notes on paper, use very clear script or block capitals. When page is done, scan to take a mental 'photo', your subconscious will help index/note it for you
axemaster
not rated yet Jan 15, 2013
1. Dont worry re math, Einstein failed too

That's actually a myth.

As for the rest... lol?
Mike_Massen
1 / 5 (4) Jan 15, 2013
axemaster became his name sake & unfortunately interfered
When Mike Massen offered
1. Dont worry re math, Einstein failed too
That's actually a myth.
As for the rest... lol?
I should have known, there are probably many here that havent studied psychology or the classics and dont see the consequences of denigrating short term practical myths in relation to the effects upon an intended audience.. Sigh..

Those same people need to get a grip re NLP/Sleep, Operant/Classical conditioning & could do with an education as to effectiveness of self hypnosis & could hold their ego and hubris back now and then to be mindful of the vagaries that can affect focus in the short to long term.. Shakes Head..

axemaster made the ambiguous 'lol?', suggesting not being aware enough of need to express amusement or thinking about collaborating on areas of psychology beyond the understanding of most or benefits of the practical experience collated from many, or some other oddity.. Groan..
axemaster
not rated yet Jan 15, 2013
Sorry... I just don't see any need for weird psychological techniques when at least to me the problem seems pretty straightforward. He basically said that he was bored and unmotivated through most of high school, which resulted in poor grades. The obvious solution (and the solution I used in college), is to create a motivating force for yourself, by pursuing something you're personally and directly interested in. In other words, rather than other people giving you work, you give yourself work.

I just don't see the value of visualization techniques. They beat around the bush and waste time and effort. Instead, do something real, like studying or building something or doing an experiment in the lab. Make friends with scientists and science majors and hang out with them. Let them pull you into their world. Those things lead directly and unambiguously to a good end result.
markmulligan
not rated yet Jan 15, 2013
Let me get this straight:

A paper recommends that -- social and natural scientists -- collaborate -- on research -- to develop -- ways to stimulate -- popular support for – significant action?

Reminds me of the old joke about how not to do something: set up a committee to investigate whether a panel should be established to determine the usefulness, etc., etc.

What this reveals is:

A) All of us have been chuffing leaded gas far too long, Tea Baggers and Republicans foremost.

B) Our current leadership is unworthy of the task, or of using up precious oxygen, for that matter

C) Our collective supplication for some Fuhrer to come dictate to us what's up from down: good, bad or genocidal...
Disprocelite
1 / 5 (9) Jan 22, 2013
For those interested: you can find a presentation of 53 slides and texts treating the urge to update our worldview adequately here on my metapproach(point)blogspot(point)be.

Think Globally, Act Consciously!
Disprocelite
1 / 5 (7) Jan 22, 2013
For those interested: you can find a presentation of 53 slides and texts of a seminar at the Free University of Brussels (ECCO Group) treating the urge to update our worldview adequately on From Knowledge Integration to Worldview.

Think Globally, Act Consciously!
Disproselyte
1 / 5 (5) Feb 01, 2013
A proper use of the actually available technologies allow scenarios to cope with the challenges, e.g. "The Energy Report" by Ecofys.
The main hurdle is the incapacity of the actual human society to react in a coherent way on those complex issues. The speed of adaptation of the control structures of planetary society don't catch up with the fast accelerating global evolution (incl. technology). For a view of how we could have a better role in the future evolution of our planet, see "The Evolutionary Manifesto".
Disproselyte
1 / 5 (5) Feb 01, 2013
Another approach is this kind of planetary dashboard, see "Safe Operating Space' For Humanity".
Howhot
1 / 5 (1) Feb 01, 2013
R2 says:
You assert high school must be mandatory and in most places it essentially is mandatory yet we have too many stupid HS graduates.

True, BUT we have a lot less stupid HS non-graduates! Liberalism wins again.

ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (15) Feb 01, 2013
R2 says:
You assert high school must be mandatory and in most places it essentially is mandatory yet we have too many stupid HS graduates.

True, BUT we have a lot less stupid HS non-graduates! Liberalism wins again.


Do you mean FEWER ....?
'Liberals' can only win by having more stupid voting them into office.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (17) Feb 02, 2013
Do you mean FEWER ....?
'Liberals' can only win by having more stupid voting them into office.
Please. The democratic system thrives on the illusion that citizens of large countries are capable of deciding who would be best at running these countries, and further, that they would actually ever be allowed to make decisions this important.

These are the same kinds of people who think that superbeings desire their worship and will grant their wishes in return. In fact, this is a very good way of identifying them and encouraging them to participate.

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